We have been discussing Rav Moshe's view that medical tests could be a violation of Devarim (18:13)
Others seem to limit that to avoiding astrologers or diviners. The Netziv and others say it only applies when there are prophets that are available. The Shulchan Aruch says the problem it means searching for indications of the future such as asking an astrologer but there is no problem utilizing the information if you overhear it
Aside from medical tests there is the question of insurance which Rav Moshe permits as a business deal. What about Social Security or eating healthy food? |Should smoking cigarettes be a concern or vaping? Some say using a doctor at all is also a problem.
Rav Noach Weinberg told me that utilizing sear belts and vaccinations show lack of bitachon. Others say being concerned with air raid sirens is a lack of bitachon. or even following elementary rules such as stopping for a red light or wear a reflector when walking down a dark road or signaling when turning
Interestingly the biggest concern we have with the future is what we call chinuch. Nobody I know would send their child to public school or a coed school or college or medical school saying "Whatever G-d wants will happen. Similarly everyone is concerned with who are your child's friends and who he/she associates with
Similarly with shidduchim no one says my child will marry the first person proposed and I will not check out who they are. Rav Moshe does caution about too much instigation. No one forms a business deal or invests money or buys a house without doing investigation regarding the future.
In sum, there are those who say that everything that happens is because G-d makes it happen and you simply must view everything as a direct consequence of G-d's Will. Others say that man is a required participant and must do whatever hishtadus he can and G-d does the rest
Yes, I know this will sound harsh but saying "Rav Noach Weinberg told me that utilizing sear belts and vaccinations show lack of bitachon" is just plain stupid. Sorry, it just is.
ReplyDeleteHere's the problem with Daas Torah Frumkeit. Any idiot knows you use cutlery to eat a meal. Only a UO needs a posek to tell him it's not Chukas Akum and it's okay to use a spoon to eat soup.
Chareidim are very dangerous drivers.
DeleteRemember this in Devarim 19
וְזֶה֙ דְּבַ֣ר הָרֹצֵ֔חַ אֲשֶׁר־יָנ֥וּס שָׁ֖מָּה וָחָ֑י אֲשֶׁ֨ר יַכֶּ֤ה אֶת־רֵעֵ֙הוּ֙ בִּבְלִי־דַ֔עַת וְה֛וּא לֹא־שֹׂנֵ֥א ל֖וֹ מִתְּמֹ֥ל שִׁלְשֹֽׁם
Accidents happen despite the bitachon in books they use at Aish.
Sorry but someone who has a different understanding than you is not saying something stupid He obviously disagreed with your view of Yiddishkeit
DeleteDo you think these rabbis have the ability to measure every single statement in the Tanakh, and Talmud as a possible key to the problem before making a comment like that?
DeleteI don't think that's humanly possible.
I'm going to strongly disagree. Not using seatbelts is idiotic, twice as much in Israel. As someone who has treated people who "trusted in God" instead of wearing seatbelts and sent them to the morgue, I can assure you of that.
DeleteYou believe also that motorcyclists should have helmets. I am reading a book by transplant surgeon that states that is a major source of organ donations. I guess you don't remember when General Motors had a campaign against being forced to install seat belts much as the campaign for measures against COVID or other anti freedom health measures
DeleteGeneral Motors had a campaign...
DeleteYeah, the tobacco companies also had campaigns. Doesn't mean smoking is safe.
This thread just got too stupid for me to continue participating in.
DeleteHelmets and supply of organ donors...?
DeleteYes, absurd
As someone who was hit by a car while biking and woke up in hospital, I can say this: if it wasn't for my helmet, it would have been my unprotected skull that hit the road (hard enough to knock me out even though I was wearing a helmet). The consequences would've been devastating. So to say that helmets were invented to increase organ donations is incredibly stupid.
DeleteIn the case of the maakeh, parapet, in Devarim 22
ReplyDeleteכִּ֤י תִבְנֶה֙ בַּ֣יִת חָדָ֔שׁ וְעָשִׂ֥יתָ מַעֲקֶ֖ה לְגַגֶּ֑ךָ וְלֹֽא־תָשִׂ֤ים דָּמִים֙ בְּבֵיתֶ֔ךָ כִּֽי־יִפֹּ֥ל הַנֹּפֵ֖ל
One of the commentators interprets
Ki yipol hanofel, if the faller falls as being deterministic, ie he's going to fall anyway.
So why does the Torah require us to build a parapet? Lack of bitachon?
Ramban says you should not be the agency of harm to others so it has nothing to do with bitachon. The question is whether it is a mitzvah for a guard rail only or is a general principle to promote safety?
DeleteShabbos (32a) “When you build a new house, then you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you bring not blood upon your house, if the fallen falls mimenu” (Deuteronomy 22:8). He explains: Mimenu, from him proof must be brought. When one falls from his previous situation, it is his own responsibility to prove his innocence and emerge unharmed. The school of Rabbi Yishmael taught: What is the meaning of the phrase: If the fallen falls from it? This person was destined to fall from that roof from the six days of Creation, it was ingrained into nature. As, although he did not yet fall, the verse calls him fallen. Nevertheless, the owner of the house is indicted for this, as merit is engendered by means of the innocent and guilt by means of the guilty.
DeleteRabbeinu Bahya (Devarim 22:08) This is the meaning of: “he had been programmed to fall from this roof ever since the six days of creation.” In spite of people having been programmed, it is a great sin if by failing to erect a railing someone fell to the ground from that roof and was killed. This is quite independent of that person having been meant to die in such a fashion on such a date.
DeleteLaws of physics, including gravity, conservation of momentum were created on 6 days of creation. If he's only going to be on one roof, and he is saved, he can't fall off another roof.
DeleteCompare also with ir miklat and axehead. What if it's a car crash ?
Gemara also says don't walk under a weak wall.
Why? What about bitachon? Aish bitachon
The statement of the school of R' Yishmael - has some interesting connotations:
Delete1) That contrary to what is our liturgy, it's all been predetermined on 6 days of Creation. So there's apparently no room for Yom Kippur, teshuva or forgiveness.
2) Despite this, R' Bahya says that it is even meant for the specific day and date
3) Whereas Tefilla, teshuva and tzedaka seem to be impotent to prevent this fall, the builder of the house can circumvent this by building and adequate parapet for safety.
But this only applies to this specific scenario, whereas all other accidents, or harm by an animal, is a result of one's sins, and is reversible by davening and bitachon. So nothing can be learned from this to apply to other situations, whereas all sorts of things can be learned from other pesukim.