Friday, February 28, 2014

Schlesinger Twins: Manchester Beis Din supports Beth's campaign

update - 2nd page of above letter  Help Beth - Manchester Beth Din Letter
Whilst, as stated above, our influence on the judicial system in Austria is extremely limited, we do feel however that there needs to be a wakeup call to the Jewish Community in Vienna who have abandoned Beth and shattered her expectations of what a community ought to provide for those experiencing difficulties. I knew Beth prior to her marriage and know that her hopes and desires were to set up a Torah true Jewish home. The fact that this was not possible with Dr Schlesinger is hard enough for her to bear, but the fact that she equally hoped to be a staunch member of an Orthodox community and now feels totally bereft and lacking any meaningful support, is something which she finds even more concerning.
It is the sincere hope of Manchester Beth Din that the community will see Beth for what she is, a true heroine and devoted mother, who could bring so much happiness to her children and ensure their proper development. The community is asked to support her in every conceivable way and to ensure that the obvious miscarriage of justice is rectified at the earliest opportunity thereby enabling her to relate properly and meaningfully with her children.

Yours sincerely

Y Brodie

REGISTRAR

102 comments :

  1. ...and yet still no word from any chabad rabbi.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The letter posted is not complete.
      See http://helpbeth.org/open-letter-from-the-manchester-beis-din/

      Delete
    2. You want a word from a chabad rabbi? Very simple. If you find fault with our indefensible behaviors, then you are "anti chabad".

      Delete
    3. Someone posting using my name?

      Delete
    4. Are you actually chabad rabbi Jacob biderman? If so, it would be very helpful if you could address some of the concerns raised on this forum. If you are not, how do you know the comment above was not written by biderman?

      Delete
  2. The Chabad leadership in Vienna is looking more and more cowardly with each passing day. As the days go by, the little twins grow older and older but it appears there are no role models among these rabbis or kindergarten staff. No one is taking a stand against a father whose childish, vengeful behaviour is turning his children's development into an unmitigated disaster.On the contrary, they are all sticking together for the great cover-up. Can these despicable people tell us all why, in contrast to rabbis and communities elsewhere, the Vienna leadership is not supporting the boys?

    ReplyDelete
  3. What's new from this letter by Rabbi Brodie? He has been openly supporting Beth since Day 1.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sam, this is true. However, there used to be a commentator on this blog by the name of "Avi Noffers" who refused to accept there was any Rabbinic support for Beth and her situation. Since then, there has been a statement by the British board of Deputies, an open debate in British Parliament and now a statement by the Manchester Beis Din:

      http://helpbeth.org/statement-from-board-of-deputies/
      http://helpbeth.org/british-parliament-14th-january-2014-highlights-and-discussion/
      http://helpbeth.org/open-letter-from-the-manchester-beis-din/

      Oh Avi, where you are now?

      Delete
    2. Hi Avrohom, I'm here!

      I don't recall saying that there was no rabbinic support for Beth. On the contrary I think I mentioned that I spoke to a rabbi who had been vocally supporting her and discovered that he had zero knowledge of the case other than that which he had been told by Beth's family. On challenging him, he really had nothing to say. I found this most disappointing. I am inclined to read the letter from the registrar from the Manchester Beth Din with a critical eye. I am not saying that the sentiments expressed therein are wrong but I do not accept them on face value.

      Over the course of time I have to admit that my opinion has changed slightly. It *appears* from the accounts we are being given that the mother is indeed being treated unfairly. I am not necessarily referring to the decisions made by the police, social services, lower court and higher court in Austria re custody but to the apparent hardships being placed in her way in seeing her children and the fact that she has to pay to see them.

      Regards and shavua tov.

      Delete
    3. Hi Avi,

      Welcome back! Whilst it is obvious our views are not in agreement on all aspects of this case, I am humbled by your admission of your change of opinion even if only "slightly".

      Even if the mother was not entitled to any custody rights (which in my view is totally archaic) she should still be allowed better visiting and less restricted access to the children. The costs against her for the visits and the ease at which the father regularly cancels are indefensible as you point out.

      As an outsider watching this, I would urge you to email some of the Rabbis in Vienna to find out the message from the other side. Their email addresses are easily searchable online and their responses might enlighten a number of readers on this forum who have raised significant concern.

      Finally, I am pretty sure the Manchester Beis Din were in contact with the Rabbinate in Vienna before they issued their statement. To suggest otherwise would be very strange indeed. You are more than welcome to make your own contact with the Manchester Beis Din to confirm this for yourself. Their email address and phone number is on their letter above.

      Thank you.

      Delete
    4. Where is a letter from the London Beth Din. Board of Deputies is not difficult. Just find one individual there and lobby him to comment. Same with Parliament. It gets a minute of air time for PR purposes and never heard from again. Really, get the real voices on board. Something from the UK Chief Rabbi? Presently neither past or present has issued a statement. And his Rabbinic Court.

      Delete
    5. Unless I have missed something, I don't see any public letters in support of the father. Perhaps it would be worth seeing if you can get one of your esteemed rabbis to put whatever international reputation they have left, on the line, and say how much they support the father. It should be easy, as you point out.

      I can't believe you are suggesting that people are prepared to make such public declarations unless they believe it to be the truth. Maybe things work differently in Austria.

      Delete
  4. The rabbi is conflating two points. He is correct that she should have the right and ability to meaningfully interact with her children. But he is incorrect in his feministic assumptions that a mother should automatically be granted custody of tender children. The father has at least equally the right to have primary custody of his children and the children need their father in their home as much as they need a mother.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If you feel you have a strong point, why don't you get some Rabbi to write a public, open letter in favor of the father in a similar manner? The Manchester Beis Din wrote that letter in a Jewish context and having a familiarity with Beth and her ability to be a mother to those children.

      Perhaps you are denying the Jewish relevance to this case?

      Delete
    2. Rabbi Brodie has been a confident and friend of Beth's family since before her marriage, so his above letter doesn't really hold a lot of meaning as it is coming from an old friend of Beth.

      Delete
    3. I think you'll find it was written on behalf of the Manchester beis din. Look at the letter heading! Where are the rabbinic letters in support of the father?? Wake up!!!

      Delete
  5. Debra, so you agree that Beth should have, at least, equal rights to her sons?

    ReplyDelete
  6. Yes I agree if this is really Rabbi Jacob Biderman., would he mind addressing these issues or perhaps he could write an open letter as Rabbi Brodie of the Manchester Beth Din has done.

    ReplyDelete
  7. The whole of the jewish community in Vienna needs to show some humility towards Beth and her sons. Rabbi Biderman should be a mench and take the lead with his with Kehilla

    He not only needs to help in this this
    tragic situation for the sake of the two
    little boys to be properly reunited with their mother, but also so that he
    doesn't allow the good name of
    Chabad come into disrepute!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's tragic Akiva that Rabbi Bidermann and the other Chabad rabbis in Vienna appear not to care about the boys. If they did, they would be doing all the things people have suggested in different places on this blog:

      1) Not honoring the cruel father, as many people have stated he has been
      2) Writing an open letter decrying the father's utterly selfish behavior
      3) Speaking openly about the children and their problems instead of denying
      them - with an intent to help. So far, this is not evident.
      4) Convincing the father that the mother has the right to continue to be their
      primary carer
      5) Convincing the father that breaking Austrian law in numerous ways will
      land him behind bars and not to a career as the respected medico he
      would probably like to be.

      Delete
  8. Clearly the rabbis claims about the children's need to be with tbeir motber smack of terrible feminism and are despicable. Having said that based on what has been posted on this blog, the fathers behavior is very despicable.

    The only defense that r brody could very legitimately claim is that until age 6 halocho seems to dictate that mother has them. One wonders if the said bais din would condemn a mother for not handing her sons over at age 6 to father. I am not holding my breath.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Aren't the boys now older than 6? If so they should be with the father.

      Delete
    2. no, they are under 5!

      Delete
    3. Joe,

      Halacha is never as straightforward as looking at one factor (i.e. age) to determine who should be the custodial parent. There are some guides, but ultimately a Beis Din should decide BASED ON THE CHILREN'S BEST INTERESTS:

      https://archive.org/details/ChildCustodyInHalachah

      You are being totally simplistic in your view on the case and have failed to address the father's violence in attempting to put the mother in a mental hospital (it has now been proven in court that the mother has no mental illness, not now not ever) and his violence in removing the children's teeth 9 months after the courts awarded him custody.

      Joe, please don't ever comment on any forum ever again when you have such little knowledge and understanding of Judaism and life in general.

      Delete
  9. If in Jewish law the children should be with their mother until they are 6, can you tell us on what basis they were taken from her at the tender ages of 2?
    On the basis on what you are saying the Rabbis in Vienna should insist tbat the boys are handed back to Beth
    immediately and logically allow her to
    make up for lost time! It sounds like
    the father has not only broken the law of the land by not complying with court
    orders, he has done something much
    worse by breaking Jewish law. Is this the sort of man that R Biderman
    honours in his shul and his community
    protects?

    ReplyDelete
  10. Avi Noffers you make very intersting points. Why is such hardship being placed on the mother? Why is she being made to pay non Jewish
    organisations 50euros a visit when Rabbi Eisenberg has offered to
    supervise the handovers himself!
    Doesn't anyone in Vienna have any
    respect, even for their very own Chief
    Rabbi. In England we have respect for our elders. We bave respect for our
    Beth Din. Nothing in Vienna makes any sense. These children would thrive if
    they came to England where we can
    trust our authorities. I have seen
    nothing to date that give me any
    confidence in Vienna,in particular,
    the Jewish community and its leaders lay or otherwise , perhaps with the
    exception or two Rabbis who don't
    seem to be respected!
    What is happening in Vienna? Two childrens precious lives are being ruined whilst they are beimg denied their perfectly fit, capable and loving mother. I do hope she is seeing her boys today and has not had to pay 50 euros for doing so!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "What is happening in Vienna?" is a good question Brian. Unlike warm christian congregations where newcomers are welcomed and cared for, the Jewish community there looks as if it is a den of iniquity and not a place any stranger would want to visit. A mother of 6 who deliberately spreads false rumors, another mother who sends the mother photos of kids bereft of her and looking sad and unhappy, people who shun her and the children, rabbis who support an evil father noone can have any respect for, members of the legal profession who are alleged to have committed illegal acts... and so the list goes on. I think any newcomer would be well advised to keep this community at an arm's distance.

      Delete
    2. @brian you obviously dont know the chief rabi. No one in the comunity respects him.

      Delete
  11. DEBRA,Yes a father does have equal rights, but this pyvho father is being more than cruel to the children's mother. He is using every possible loophole for the children not to see her, so where are you coming from on EQUAL RIGHTS!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  12. Yonatan stop with your feminist garbage of halocho not being so simple. Claerly you should not comment on any blog until you can understand simple English. I said that based on what I had read the fathers behavior is despicable. That does not excuse the very sickening remark of the bais din spokesman I shouldnt have to write reams of material for people to understand what my opinions are. I said the datbers behavior is despicable if allegations are true. It is the bais din who feela young children should be with mother that you should accuse of being simplistic le shitoscho. But because its for the mother thats fine by you. You are a hypochrite. And who determines the best interests of the child? Some corrupt psychologist wbo sleeos around? Halocho has the presumption that tbe best interests are served with boys being with their father who can teach them Torah. So before you start condemning people for being simplistic show some humility and knoledge something extremely rare in the modern orthodox reformadox community you no doubt bekong to.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Some corrupt psychologist who sleeps around?" - What on earth are you talking about?

      Delete
  13. Are you more knowledgeable and have done more research into this case than the Manchester Beis Din????

    Your unbelievable view point must astound even yourself!!

    ReplyDelete
  14. The remark made by the Manchester bais din was a general remark which I found objectionable. I am all for their protesting against injustice. I asked aloud if they also protest when boys over age 6 are kept by the mother. What has this got to do with knowledge of this case?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "I am all for their protesting against injustice" - Then lets hear you join in this protest against the injustice of the Schlesinger twins! I am not sure what relevance this has on other custody cases that you obviously feel bitter about. Take that bitterness elsewhere as it has no place in this discussion.

      Delete
  15. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  16. People are speechless that this Rabbi Biderman has honoured this cruel man in his shul. What a disgrace!! He is a chabad rabbi, in a chabad shul, not showing a very good example for chabad. This man is probably excellent at raising donations, probably sat on a mountain of them!! If he was decent through and through he would have been trying to relieve the torment Beth and the children are going through by at least raising donations for her to pay the 50 euros to see the children. He along with many others in Vienna have contributed to all the pain!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. speechless, how do you know the father is cruel? Do you know him? And Rav Biederman is allowed to give kuwet to whom he wants.
      Beth does not seem to need money as she herself wrote that she lives in an expensive apartment, and she pays expensive lawyers(they throw her out anyway-but this is another story.)

      Delete
  17. @speechless when did you meet dr Schlesinger?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Since your days as a ski star, franzklammer, many years have passed and you may have had too many crashes without a helmet. What on earth does meeting the father have to do with the price of fish?

      Delete
  18. Clearly knowledge has several problems like his soul mate Yonatan. I already condemned the behavior of husband. There seems to a problem that they oppose the fact that legitimate questions are being asked as to why a similar uproar is not made when a father's rights are tranpled on. This is a totally legitimate question despite all the complaints and it will be raised whether the feminists like it or not.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Welcome to the real world full of corrupt Rabbis.

    ReplyDelete
  20. No signature on the letter. No Dayan signed on the letter. Hmmm

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It would help if you were able to read and have basic computer skills!

      You and the rest of 'team Schlesinger' are looking pretty bad on this ridiculous claim!!

      Delete
    2. Please email the Manchester beth din and forward their reply to daas Torah. That would make very interesting reading. For the purposes of this blog we will disregard your comments until your claim is verified.

      Delete
    3. The letter was clearly signed. See full text.
      http://helpbeth.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/LetterFromManchesterBethDin20140227.pdf

      Delete
  21. It's time for the mom to give up the fight, get remarried and have more children and move on with her life.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Would YOU do that BT?

      Delete
    2. Its time for the father to see sense and let those children have a mother in their lives. The father is very cruel denying his own children such a fundamental right, and I cannot understand why you would encourage the father's behavior. BT, You must be messed up yourself if you actually rationalize these thoughts.

      Delete
  22. Why should Beth give up the children she gave birth to? Bt why doesn't the father take up your suggestion though? Give the boys to Beth and take A new wife, a new life!
    Wouldn't that be great for him. Lots of benefits !

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hear! Hear! A lovely new wife from the Vienna community and a very happy marriage. Return the boys and produce some more! Good luck!

      Delete
  23. You are all behaving imature. Do you realy think that the father was able to bribe 9 judges? Why should 9 judges be on the fathers side if there was something incorrect?????????? You are too naive. Very sorry for you. May h have rachmones with you

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Please can you provide a reason these "9 judges" felt it necessary to award the father 100% sole custody with such restricted visiting rights for the mother? It seems to me like money and corruption is the only plausible answer. Looking at the huge scale of the helpbeth campaign, it looks like I am not the only one who is convinced corruption has played a significant part.

      What alternative explanation would you give Franz?

      Delete
    2. To franzklammer, BEWARE the world is looking in on this case. Where nothing makes sense, and brick walls built, where they would not normally be built, that adds up to very SINISTER stuff

      Delete
    3. @ come on:No money, no corruption involved. There were just facts and two persons. And.....we all know the result. And the mother has to accept it. Blaming the whole world (besides her followers on FB) for what happened will not help her. And what she does to her children by usng them for her campaign just shows that the judges were right.

      Delete
    4. franzklammer, God does not need to have compassion on anyone who suspects foul play in every court where those 9 judges (!) were fooled by prominent people and others who almost certainly failed to be honest! The twins are the ones who need compassion, which they did not get. Nobody here is either immature or naive. And, as Speechless has commented, your remarks are being read by thousands of people, most of whom will probably realize how macabre this case is becoming as more and more facts are revealed.

      Delete
  24. Nine judges ? How do you know it was 9? If you know so much you may also know that an incorrect report on Beth's
    mental state was submitted to the
    court. Also a report by R. Biderman
    was submitted regarding the boys
    psychological state. Does R Biderman
    have any official academic
    qualifications? I think all this needs
    investigating and probably some of the
    reasons why the British Government
    are taking such an interest. There are
    so very many unanswered questions!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The firat court has 1, the higher court 3 and the supream court 5. Thats how it works and jeremy let us all read bidermans statement on the psychological status. Could you please publish it? Please please please

      Delete
    2. Franzklammer, do you know Rabbi Biderman? Can you ask him for it yourself and email it to Daas Torah?

      Delete
  25. Again you are not answering a question. What academic qualifications does R Biderman have. Surely something he is proud of and hardly a secret!

    ReplyDelete
  26. So jeremy did you find the non existing statement of biderman? Yes r biderman can be proud of his great job for the jewish comunity.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Franzklammer, is "Rabbi" Biderman saying to you he does not know of such a statement? Would he be prepared to email Daas Torah with this ridiculous claim. Why does he not have the guts to publish an open letter with all his views on the matter? He has no backbone! Thank goodness we have good people in the Manchester Beis Din who show Vienna how leadership works!

      Delete
    2. franzklammer How would you know if there's a statement by Rabbi Biderman or not? Are you that close to the father? Are you one of the 9 judges? If there IS a statement, that would indicate the good rabbi has qualifications in child development in addition to running the LBS and all the Chabad schools and kindergarten. A brilliant man (without a backbone). If there is no statement, it may have done a disappearing act like the docs and evidence that always vanish in the course of a court case.

      Delete
  27. franzklammer: the real Franz Klammer would be horrified to see you using his name to argue in favor of a father who acts as this one has. He might even sue you...

    ReplyDelete
  28. R Biderman may well be doing a good job for the community, but the question is what academic qualifications does he hold?

    ReplyDelete
  29. FRANZKLAMMER - why do you not respect your chief rabbi, and you think highly of rabbi Biderman. Maybe its because rabbi Biderman is aligned with Michael Schlesinger. What seems odd is, rabbi Biderman is seen as doing all these great things in your community, yet he has allowed a young mother to live in despair and heartache, even honouring the man who is causing such unhappiness to her and the children. Biderman does not add up

    ReplyDelete
  30. You dont seem to know the chief rabi. No one respects him

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. How can you respect Biderman??? No one in the whole of Europe or Chabad respects him, even before the case of the Schlesinger twins. I challenge you to speak to anyone in Crown Heights and ask them what they think of Biderman!

      Delete
    2. What do you have against Chief Rabbi Eisenberg, franzklammer? It's not clear why you've brought him into this. He's not part of the discussion. Your thoughts are somewhat disjointed. We're talking about Rabbi Biderman, the psychological development of the twins, Sammy and Benji, the terrible state these chidren are in and the possibility that their father is endangering them.

      Delete
  31. respect, I challenge you to speak to any Rabbi in Crown Heights or in Europe who does not respect him.
    You want names of Rabbis who respect him tremendously? Rabbi Kotlarsky, Gorelik, Kaminetzky, Lazar, Beth Din of CH.
    Seriously? How hateful are you?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I live in ch and have spoken many times to the rabbis you mention about biderman. Their comments contrast quite starkly with your ill-informed assumptions.

      Delete
  32. You have spoken with Rabbi Kotlarsky? And Rabbis Osdoba, Schwei and Braun? And Rabbis Schwartz, Weisz of Vienna?

    Let's have your name so I can call them and verify.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Edith was first to make this claim. Let Edith contact these ch rabbis and publish their emails showing how much respect they have for biderman.

      I think you will find they refuse to do this, as noted by your subsequent silence (or refusal to take on this task) in response to this post.

      Delete
    2. LIBA if people outside Austria have not got a good impression of how Rabbi Biderman has handled this tragic case, its obviously possible that these rabbi's also have a bad impression of him

      Delete
    3. Liba, it is good to hear from you again. Please can you help us with the following really simply, basic questions about the picture of one of the twins at the play center:

      When was the picture taken?
      Who took the picture?
      Who gave it to you?
      Why did you send it to Beth?

      It would be helpful if you could address these questions so that we can move this debate forward. By being silent, you are raising a lot of suspicion about what is going on over there.

      Delete
    4. wait, I am raising suspicions that what? that I snuck in on a school trip and took the picture? that I stole the pic? that I bribed someone for the picture? what suspicions exactly are raised by a picture of a child on a trip?
      when and who took the picture is irrelevant.
      why did I send it to Beth? Simple, Beth called me a while ago and asked if I have any info or any pics about her kids because my son is in the same class. When I saw pics of all the kids in the class, I figured I'd send Beth a pic of her son. I thought she'd be happy to see her little one on a class trip. I thought she'd be appreciative that I thought of her and took the time to send the pic. Little did I know how Beth would react, splashing the picture and bashing chabad. is it any wonder I hesitate to give any information for fear of everything I do being twisted?

      Delete
  33. This debate is becoming silly. The comments started off being relevant to the initial post, but has now degenerated into baseless mud-slinging posting outrageous allegations (on both sides) and I request that we call the comments on this post closed.

    ReplyDelete
  34. and I'm baack!

    Here's the text you want me to write/say: an anonymous blogger claimed that you spoke critically of Rabbi Biderman. Please verify.

    yes?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A better questionMarch 5, 2014 at 11:11 PM

      Here is a better text:

      There has been much concern raised on multiple blogs about Rabbi Biderman's behavior in his involvement of the custody case of the Schlesinger twins. Do you share our concern that a mother is being unfairly restricted access to her children and that everything should be done to bring about a solution that is in the best interests of the children? Do you stand by Rabbi Biderman in helping the father's court case at the expense of the children?

      Delete
    2. there's just one problem with your text:

      - how do I know that Rabbi Biderman helped the father at the expense of the children?
      - how do I know that the mother is unfairly restricted?
      - basically, how do I know that a word that beth claims, is true?

      Perhaps Beth suffered PPD - and has since recovered - and the boys were neglected under her care?

      As we can see from this picture that was distorted (and Beth wears pants and goes with an uncovered head, so why the missing kippa bothers her, is a mystery) who knows what else is distorted?
      You want a Rabbi in NY who knows nothing about the case except what Beth and her family presented, to pass judgement? I can't imagine any Rabbi worth his salt doing so!
      This is beyond ridiculous

      Delete
    3. I have seen nothing to indicate anything Beth and her family says is not 100% correct.

      She has the public backing of British MPs, board of deputies and a beis din.

      Where is the backing for the father???

      How about facing reality for once in your life?

      Delete
  35. Dr. Schlesinger's supporters have been making a rather bizarre and disgusting claim that Beth should not be concerned about the religious education of her children if she herself does not maintain a certain level of religious observance according to their judgment.

    First of all, Rav Moshe Feinstein permits a divorced woman not to cover her hair when their is need such as to be able to get remarried etc. Thus hair covering for a divorcee is not the same prohibition as for a married woman.

    However this disgusting claim by those who are conducting a smear campaign against Beth indicates that those who propose it apparently feel that hurting Beth and her children is the most important consideration. If Beth wants her children to wear tzitzis she is told she has no right to want that. If she wants the children to wear a kippah - she is told "who are you to ask for such things."

    Even worse than this is the fundamental denial of the rights of these children to their mother and to get proper care.

    As a minimum these children need to be given an independent psychological evaluation and Dr. Schlesinger needs to be given an independent psychiatric evaluations as to whether he is a fit father. The constant deflecting of concern for the children by a smear campaign against Beth is really sick. (More on this issue later)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. the claim is not that she shouldnt be concerned about her children's observance - she should!
      But for someone who wears pants and who photographs them all the time when they visit her NOT wearing a kippa, it takes a certain kind of chutzpah to then post feigned outrage that they're not wearing a kippa on a school trip.!
      The point is not the kippa - the point is the feigned religious outrage!

      Delete
    2. @edith - you have a rather strange concept of Judaism or a rather naive understanding of psychology. Or perhaps your hatred towards Beth is blinding you to the obvious. Why do you insist that she is faking her concern about her children's religious observance? Are you a mind reader?

      There is absolutely no justification for your outrage about this nonsensical claim

      Delete
    3. DT - you have a rather strange concept of Judaism or a rather skewed understanding of psychology to lash out at a rational argument with accusations of hatred and mind reading.

      I don't know who's right, and I emphasize that my personal sympathies are with the mother's right to be more involved with her children, but I cannot accept your once again using your pulpit to bully someone out of their attempt to present a rational position contrary to yours. This lady, Edith, is suggesting an hypocrisy in the mother decrying lack of kippa-wearing for young children (which is NO mitzvah) when she her self seems to be fast and loose with her own mitzvah observance. This doesn't mean the mother is a sinner for wearing pants and not covering her hair, but at the same time she's not in the position to pontificate about the virtues of being makpid b'minhagei lavush.

      Delete
    4. I don't hate Beth at all.

      I'm not a mind reader, but I've been following her blog closely and I haven't seen one picture of the boys wearing a kippa when they are with her. I have no problem with that per se, but when there's a picture of them on a class trip without a kippa, suddenly she cares? Suddenly all hell breaks loose? That just can't be true. Why do I insist that she is faking her concern? Simply, if she cares about them wearing a kippa, she would make sure they wear one when they are with her. If they don't, it means she doesn't care.
      What point is unclear here?
      I just dont like to be played.

      Delete
    5. edith,

      Her points about the Kippas are very relevant.

      1. Why are these children NOT wearing Kippas and Tzitzis in school?

      When boys of this age who are attending a Chabad school don't wear these items it suggests a very serious problem. Is there any way for you to logically and concisely respond to this?

      Obviously not. If you can, please do so. The mothers personal dress-code is completely irrelevant to this serious concern.
      When you dismiss it so callously with an attack against the mother, what does that say about you?

      P.S.

      Would you like to call me an ignorant fool?

      Would you like to say that I have an anti Chabad agenda?

      Delete
    6. please refer to what liba wrote. she gave beth this picture and it was taken during a school trip to a playground. go back to that post and comment and read it.

      simple. call the school - or call anyone in vienna - ask them to drop in unannounced at the school and take a pic of any random kid. theyll have a kippa. I know cuz Ive been there

      Delete
    7. Edith,

      "drop in unannounced at the school and take a pic of any random kid."

      That's precisely the issue. Why are these children not wearing Kippot? You've done a lot of attacking the mother, but very little explaining.

      "simple. call the school"

      That is also precisely the question. Why is the school not providing the mother with information?

      You have failed to justify your vile attacks.

      Delete
    8. true chossid,
      do you not know any of the facts on this case?
      liba wrote that pic was taken during class trip and non Jewish teacher held on to kippos of kids.
      drop in unannounced at teh school and take a pic of the schlesinger kids - youll see they wear a kippa, okay?
      The school is forbidden by law to be in contact with any person other than the parent with custody. Dont you think the teachers would like to speak to the mom? They are forbidden!

      Delete
    9. and what vile attacks? asking for proof is a vile attack?

      Delete
  36. I understand that the father is a medical doctor. Does having PPD mean that all mothers that suffer it should have their children taken away, includung me. I must have been lucky.
    I had a aympathetic doctor and husbamd although sadly we are now
    divorced. We make sure that we do
    our very best for our children though
    and put our differences aside for them.
    I understand, unlike me, medical reports state that Beth has never suffered from any mental illness at all,
    ever. Even if she did she should have
    received help. Can we now be told the
    real reason why Beth s children were taken away from her and also why sh
    e is allowed such little contact with
    them and even the father is refusing to
    give her even that?
    A Rabbi in NY ? If a Rabbi in NY tells the father to give Beth custody, would he do it?

    ReplyDelete
  37. again, let Beth show us the court document - if there's nothing there to incriminate her, why wont she?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The board of deputies has seen some of the documents and described them as a stain on Austria. Are you a lawyer? Do you honestly expect anyone to regard your anonymous opinion as being more accurate than a senior lawyer in the board of deputies?

      We know the truth, I suspect deep down you do too, but won't admit it.

      You sound like you are close to the Schlesinger family from the tone and arrogance of your postings. Perhaps you could ask him to show you the docs you are after. You could then email them to daas Torah or set up a blog site of your own to put over your case.

      Delete
    2. actually I am not close to the Schlesinger family. I dont even know them.

      It just sounds like there's more to this story and there's always her truth, his truth and then the truth. Obviously we can't know that unless we see documents, thats all.
      I want Beth to have her children. Let's make sure its entirely in their interest

      Delete
    3. "actually I am not close to the Schlesinger family. I dont even know them." - do me a favor. You are not fooling anyone!

      Delete
  38. Edith how would it help if Beth were to show any documents?
    The father isnt even complying with the rediculous limited visiting! . He just keeps attacking Beth and doesn't seem to care about the happiness of his boys and what he is doing to them!

    ReplyDelete
  39. Edith, it is against Austrian law to publish court documents! Nobody, even if they had access to them, is going to post them here! Isn't it sufficient for you to see how the mother's supporters (some of whom know her personally, some by Internet) are arguing so logically and compassionately, and, simultaneously, Team Schlesinger with sadistic, cruel and poorly thought-out comments?

    ReplyDelete
  40. never, no, beth's supporters are most certainly not arguing logically. Proof is that Beth wrote it? that's proof?
    im impartial and I see a lack of information. Why is beth right? because she has better pr? more fb presence?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. EDITH, WRITE YOUR OWN STATEMENT, SET UP YOUR OWN BLOG, CREATE YOUR OWN FACEBOOK PRESENCE!!!!

      Delete
  41. Edith - surely you've worked out in your (long? short?) life that there are people you can trust and people you can't....? Beth and her family are the ones a 'normal', well-balanced person believes, the father is not. We don't need to meet him as we can tell from his behavior that he is unlikely to be a trustworthy person. Do you care about Sammy and Benji at all? I don't think so. I get the feeling you just like the 'sound' of your own voice.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Beth is right because there is no good reason given why the boys were taken away from her. It was the father who was given supervised visits, not Beth!
    The father has used influence or something else to get the judge to suddenly give him custody. Why was that Michael Schlesinger?

    ReplyDelete
  43. Dr Schlesinger is not taking advantage of the opportunities he's being given to present his side of the story. What does this mean?

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.