Thursday, February 6, 2014

Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky's letter to the Dodelsons saying his previous letter was not criticizing them

The most recent letter addressed to the Dodleson family of erev rosh chodesh Shevat Tav Shin Ayin "daleth says that ,
... I would like to convey to you in a clear language that, I am not coming to condemn you on what you did along the whole time of this painful saga. I am aware that you did get help and support for what you have done along that time, myself amongst them. It is clear that you have done what you did according to Daas Torah...
Which is a clarification of this letter  Daas Torah Blog posting 
Update: See letter from Rav Shlomo Miller



In the letter addressed at the prior date of E.S. Chanuka of Nov-19-'13,
... it was brought to my attention that the public smear campaign against the Weiss family continues with my support. It is not supported by me and the campaign should cease and desist. It is unacceptable. R' S.K.

23 comments :

  1. Replies
    1. Im ken, hodro kushyei leduchteiFebruary 7, 2014 at 12:54 AM

      trans from loshen kodesh as close as possible in good faith

      (most recent dated letter posted first)
      The most recent letter addressed to the Dodleson family of erev rosh chodesh Shevat Tav Shin Ayin "daleth says that ,
      ... I would like to convey to you in a clear language that, I am not coming to condemn you on what you did along the whole time of this painful saga. I am aware that you did get help and support for what you have done along that time, myself amongst them.
      It is clear that you have done what you did according to Daas Torah...


      (prior dated letter posted second)
      In the letter addressed at the prior date of E.S. Chanuka of Nov-19-'13, ... it was brought to my attention that the public smear campaign against the Weiss family continue with my support. It is not supported by me and the campaign should cease and desist. It is unacceptable.

      R' S.K. clearly demands for to cease and desist of smear campaign, not only they did not comply then at the time, but it still continues as of today 'bezadon' and going strong, even though there is no more kivyachol the alleged cry of so called Agunah. Indeed, she is a Grusha and FREE.The smear campaign is clearly noted as against the will, support and wishes of R' S.K. which is considered as Daas Torah. However, in the most recent letter of E.R.Shvat which is clearly before the Get, conveys that you did do according to Daas Torah, even though the smear campaign was still in full force and deemed unacceptable. It so seems as if an oxymoron or a tartei desorei.

      Veim timtsa lomar, that "I am not coming to condemn you on what you did along the whole time of this painful saga', is because of "ein odon nitfas al tsaaro", but since serious negotiations have then been going on, and more so now that she is a Grusha, why don't they comply to Daas Torah to cease and desist of the smear campaign and of CHILLUL HASHEM? Im ken iglei milsa lemafrea, vehodrei kushyei leduchtei, is Cease and Desist as in Daas Torah or is it not? It would surely help a clarification letter as of now, in feeling the pain of the Nirdof and the tsaar haSchinah for Chilul Shem Shamayim berabim, and reorder to "Kimu veKiblu" of cease and desist. Velo neda mitsaar od, ach verak simcha kol hayomim.

      One more point that some clarification can help,
      [1] "I am aware that you did get help and support for what you have done along that time, myself amongst them.
      [2] "It is clear that you have done what you did according to Daas Torah"...

      Is there something missing between these two sentences, such as - "along that time, myself amongst them" ... "...according to Daas Torah", - would those two sentences refer as a 'taut' along that time, or that still holds 'correctly so' and rightfully so, as of the very present?

      I would have thought it is the first, since it was in response to the ksav siruv along that time, but it is unclear.

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  2. The letter is dated from BEFORE the Get being given.

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  3. your are correct - will correct title - thanks

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  4. He says that everything they did, including going to ORA, was according to Daas Torah. I dont think anyone can argue anymore that RSK doesn't approve of ORAs tactics.

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  5. Note that the letter doesn't give them approval of what they did, but rather says they did it with Daas Torah. He still holds that a smear campaign was the wrong approach.

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    Replies
    1. From a previous thread:

      Pursuit of HonestyJanuary 23, 2014 at 9:53 AM
      R' Shmuel regretted his actions, he therefore took responsibility and made it his business to try to clean up the mess by putting his son R' Sholom in charge. I applaud his gesture. I applaud even more R' Sholom's patience and resilience, his sensitivity and full comprehension, and his complete devotion to ending this terrible situation!!!
      Thank you R' Sholom!


      TitzichJanuary 23, 2014 at 2:45 PM
      Pursuit, do you know that R Shmuel regretted his actions as a matter of fact, or is it because you are speculating?


      Pursuit of HonestyJanuary 23, 2014 at 8:48 PM
      As a matter of fact!

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    2. Pursuit of HonestyFebruary 7, 2014 at 7:50 AM

      Dovevos,
      As mentioned in that thread, I have personally heard from R' Shmuel that he disapproves of the Dodelson's actions!!!! His tone of voice made it clear that he regretted his original signature on the Kol Korei!

      P.S. - Thanks for finally responding to one of my posts from that thread.

      About the letters:

      People ask: How can it be that R' Shmuel's letters seem so contradicting!?! Well lets translate the body of the letter for you:

      I am writing in easy to understand writing. I understand that what I wrote regarding the sensitive case of Gital's Get, has caused you much pain anguish. That was not my intention, and it didn't even occur to me. My intentions were to stop the "Ra'ash Gadol, B'Richvei Seiveil", in order to allow my son R' Sholom to put together/finalize the details. I understand that I this brought you much pain, I therefore would like clarify this. I did not come to judge your actions during these trying times. I know you received "Sed", (not sure what that translates to) and also support for what you have done over time, and I also WAS among them. It is clear that you have done what you did using the words of Daas Torah. (the rest is a blessing)

      So how does this letter sync with his letter first one? Well all he is saying in the second letter is: I understand where you came from when you did what you did, and I didn't mean to hurt your feelings when I asked you to stop and desist your smear campaign in my other letter.

      To claim that the second letter is in support of the Dodelson's actions is ridiculous, especially after they blatantly disregarded his request to stop their smear campaign with their NPR interviews.

      Delete
    3. Pursuit of HonestyFebruary 9, 2014 at 5:12 PM

      Note some of the wording chosen:

      "Lo ba'asi la'dun eschem al ma she'asisem..." - I didn't come to judge you for what you have done during these trying times. (In other words: I have no intentions of judging if you were right or wrong with what you did.)
      "...V'gam ani hayisi bein eilu" - ...and I was also among those. (In other words: I WAS among them, but I since then wrote the letter asking you to stop and desist your smear campaign {which you didn't listen to}! Notice how he doesn't put himself into the first half of the sentence, but rather he tags on at the end the part about how he WAS among them. I think he clearly separated himself from the first group, the original signers of the Kol Korei, and makes it clear that he is no longer considers himself among them.)
      Borur ani she'asisem ma she'asisem al pi Daas Torah" - I am sure you have done what you did using the words of Daas Torah (In other words: I am sure your course of action was chosen after speaking it over with Daas Torah - R' Malkiel - and you acted in accordance with what he told you. I don't necessarily agree with him, but I know you didn't act without first consulting with R' Malkiel. I therefore am not judging what you did.)

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  6. Please explain how the date matters? It was dated last week - less than a week before the get was ANNOUNCED to be given. Likely, within a few days once it was made know to both parties that it would be given and an appointment was set to meet with the Beis Din for the hand off... I'm not sure I understand how that matters here.
    Also, what a mentsch of a gadol - it is so clear why Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky is a gadol bTorah of our generation- thank you for posting the beautiful example of humility, humanity, and empathy. Wow. What a gem of a human being. Baruch Hashem for rebbeim like him!

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  7. Try to say the same about 'doovidle'.

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  8. basically he is apologizing - when will he apologize to the friedmans

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  9. So R' Shmuel holds that going to the NY Post was with Daas Torah?! Someone please explain.

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    1. Wether it's intentional or not, this blog as become the blog for bashing gedolim. I can answer you question quite easily, bought you have to be open to hear. The answer why it's not a chillul Hashem is quite simple ,but I doubt my view would be allowed. Sometimes you just have to know, you don't know both sides , and if you did, you wouldn't ask.

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    2. This blog has become the blog for bashing "Gedolim" who act in an outrageous and abusive fashion.

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    3. Wow - Puzzled. Be careful there. Huge HUGE sin to deride a gadol bTorah and a gadol B'Yisroel. You may be saying things in exaggeration since that is the tone that these blog commentators sometimes illicit from each other, but remember that Hashem is watching and cares and that comment may land your neshama in very hot waters when your Day comes. At the end of the day, what Sam, Huh? or anyone else has to say will not matter to the Court of Justice -- your insolent comments will.

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  10. "The answer why it's not a chillul Hashem... Sometimes you just have to know, you don't know both sides , and if you did, you wouldn't ask."

    That's not an answer.

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  11. I don't understand how the two letters with two opposite messages can possibly be reconciled as consistent.

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    Replies
    1. Pursuit of HonestyFebruary 7, 2014 at 5:26 PM

      Read my post above...

      Delete
  12. Dear Rabbi Eidensohn,

    You succeeded in having Rabbi Greenwald explain how his two letters coincided.

    Perhaps you should reach out to Rav Kamenetzky and his son to clarify.

    This second letter almost makes it sound like the first letter was a setup to fool the Weisses into believing that they were acting in good faith, even as they were with the Dodelsons all along.

    I hope and pray that is not the case. That would be an entirely new level of perversion of justice. How sordid!

    It would also mean that you could never trust anything Rav Kamenetzky writes, because it may be just to fool you.

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  13. CEASE and DESIST SMEAR CAMPAIGN There is no contradiction between these two lettersFebruary 14, 2014 at 2:56 AM

    part 1

    There is absolutely no contradiction between these two letters,

    Odom nikar bishlosho dvorim. betviat eina, bekolo, uvchatimat yado. This letter in Hebrew is mezuyaf mitocho umigabo a failed attempt, and a poor nebish one at that.

    Here is why, step by step:

    1) Would you ever think that R' S Kaminetsky would write a letter without B'SD? lol
    2) If addressed to "Mishpachat", it would have followed by Neram Yair as N'Y', Tichye is for female, it seems Gital is writing to herself in a Hebrew nusach with lots of sympathy. Many of the expressions are clearly Israeli spoken hebrew.
    3) "Ani kotev hadvarim..." Since when does R' K' have a shortage of words expressing himself in English, see the Cease and Desist letter?
    4) Why is it necessary to explain a reason altogether as to why for writing in Hebrew? Indeed, if it was meant as a RETREAT from previous letter of cease & desist and for public consumption, English would fit just perfect.
    5) "Hevanti...", I understood that what I wrote in this bitter saga in receiving of the Get caused you immense pain, that was not my intention, and would not even dawn on me. My wish was to stop the big noise from all over the place, in order to enable my son... to deal in an orderly fashion and to summarize.
    a) It was clearly written as a PSAK DIN to cease and desist.
    b) and even expressed that it is against his wishes!
    c) the outside "NOISE" in any case did not interfere with preperation and summary per se.
    6) "Mevin ani...", why would a psak din cause pain, and why should R'K' need to excuse when it is Halacha doing so!
    7) "And on this I want to express myself and make it clear, I am not coming to ("Lodun")*condemn you on what you did all along this painful saga..." (*condemn = because it attempts as if to negate the Cease and desist as not really a Psak Din) and kasher the smear campaign for the past, present and future.
    It is a blatant ZIYUF, if it walks like a Psak Din, and talks like a Psak Din, and wiggles like a Psak Din, it is INDEED a Psak Din!
    8) "I am aware that you got 'saad' = help 'as to lean on' aka "vesaadi et libchem" and acknowledgement on everything you did, and myself amongst them.
    Not so fast my friend, that was before R'SK became aware that they claim to smear with R'SK' s support, and then and there not only he denies but also adds that is UNACCEPTABLE!
    9) " It is clear that what you did was with Daas Torah,
    But in the English letter it crystal clear that R'SK retrieves from the Kol Kore and of Ksav Siruv.
    10) Bitterness and pain is repeated no less than 6 separate times, as if pain can negate a Psak Din. Indeed, after expressing so many times to calrify, clear language, easy to write language, express myself clearly, he excuses himself why he was misunderstood, 'those were not my intentions and would never dawn on me". Wow, if this isn't a ZIYUF, I don't know what is. And if Hebrew is the language of choice, how could he have not written in crystal clear language that "Psak Din" of cease and desist, was actually NOT a Psak Din? Huh? It is the essence and most critical point and purpose of this whole letter.
    11) Why the timing of such letter just one week before the so called Get Liberation? In order to give a Kosher stamping on widening of the smear campaign to NPR, by denying of an existing Psak Din!

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  14. CEASE and DESIST SMEAR CAMPAIGN There is no contradiction between these two lettersFebruary 14, 2014 at 2:57 AM

    Part 2

    And now for the BEEF and the Main Dish
    The reason for the "B'SD" missing on top letter is, they did not want to include haShem in a blatant lie and forgery, lo sisa shem lashav.
    The beginning of the dates of each letter are both EREV =ER, a cut n paste job, hence the date choice of an ER day. On top of that R of ER, notice the quotation marks, on top Hebrew written letter they are symmetric, on bottom english letter, they are obviously not.
    Notice the 'ches' of top letter, meets at a sharp angle where joined, not so in bottom letter, more like a cane with a handle.
    in top letter": The Shin in Shvat is clearly leaning to the right, more obvious if you use an imaginary line in the center of the Shin, same in "Shin" of -Tav 'S'-hin Ayin D... However in bottom English letter, the Shin is quite balanced and centered.
    In the Hebrew letter, you notice the absence of an English date, WHY? After it is R'SK's style in doing so. The reason is simple, the forgery would be so much more obvious and noticable when in comparing.
    Now you can understand why there is no contradiction in these two letters. Nice try. So now we know a little bit more of the ingredients that go into a SMEAR CAMPAIGN.


    CEASE and DESIST SMEAR CAMPAIGN There is no contradiction between these two letters

    ReplyDelete

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