Yoma (86a): As it was taught: And you shall love the L‑rd your G‑d (Devarim 6:5). That means that the Name of Heaven should be beloved because of you. If a person studies Bible and Mishna and serves scholars and deals honestly with people – what do people say about him? They say, “Happy is his father who taught him Torah, happy is his teacher who taught him Torah. Woe is it to the people who don’t learn Torah because this man learned Torah see how wonderful are his ways and how refined are his deeds.”…
Rambam( Hilchos Shavuos 12:2): The sin of false oaths is amongst the most severe sins as we have explained in Hilchos Teshuva. This is so even though there is no punishment of kares or execution by beis din. Nevertheless there is the desecration of G‑d name (chillul HaShem) which is greater that all other sins.
Concerning the discussion regarding a man committing adultery or being unfaithful to his wife - the seriousness is not just a reflection of the punishment for the specific sin - but it also includes the fact that his behavior is a chillul haShem.
Concerning the discussion regarding a man committing adultery or being unfaithful to his wife - the seriousness is not just a reflection of the punishment for the specific sin - but it also includes the fact that his behavior is a chillul haShem.
Honestly: I do not see the link between fals oath and a man cheating his wife. For all I understood from what you said, he never makes any commitment to be faithful. It's just, that theoretically, all paths of cheating are blocked, since he cannot have relationships with another woman without marrying her and taking a second wife is prohibited to ashkenasim. But it has nothing to do with her. He never promised her anything.
ReplyDeleteshoshi said...
ReplyDeleteHonestly: I do not see the link between fals oath and a man cheating his wife...
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Chillul HaShem is a metarule just as the charge to be holy or to be righteous.
Violations occur when it is perceived that a religious person is functioning on a lower level than the non-religious. It does not require that there be a violation of a specific prohibition in order to transgress this metarule.
Well but different religions have different moral systems. You said that in the "jewish moral system" cheating your wife was not that bad. So it's enough for the women to know that they are within a moral system were their husband is allowed to cheat them. Why should you invent additional halakhot or chumrot just because non-religious people don't do it?
ReplyDeleteI mean look: Now, in the non-religious world, there is a big issue on husbands helping their wives with household chores. But as far as I understood you, it would "lack halakhical thinking" to ask a jewish man to bake challot.
So it's the same with cheating: If the Torah allows it, let them do it.
Soshi said:
ReplyDeleteSo it's the same with cheating: If the Torah allows it, let them do it.
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You are missing the awareness of the most important component of halacha - metarules. As the Gra has stated a person can keep all the rules in Shulchan Aruch and still go to Hell while someone who apparrently violates all the major prohibitions might end up in Heaven. Our Sages tell us that Jerusalem was destroyed because they were insistent on precisely following the letter of the law. See the Aruch HaShulchan C.M. #2.
The ideal religious Jew is not a fundamentalist but a mentsch.
As I have said many times, Judaism is not a religion of bean counters. There are metarules. I discuss this at greater length in my sefer Daas Torah pp 169-171. A famous example is the following Ramban.
Ramban (Vayikra 19:2): What does the command to be holy mean? The Torah prohibits certain types of sexual relationships and certain types of foods while it permits relations with one’s wife and eating of meat and drinking wine. This might lead lustful people to be preoccupied with their wife or to have many wives. It might lead them to constantly drink wine and eating meat. They might think that they can speak in a disgusting way—since none of these things are specifically prohibited in the Torah. Thus, a person apparently can be totally disgusting while precisely keeping all the commandments of the Torah. Therefore this verse comes to teach that after specifying those things which are absolutely prohibited there is a general rule to be moderate in that which is permitted. Thus one should not have unlimited sexual relations and should minimize the amount of wine he drinks. He should stay aware form impurity even though these things are not specifically prohibited in the Torah…Similarly he should guard his mouth from gluttony and disgusting speech… He should sanctify himself and act in a holy manner… This is the purpose of having a general principle after specifying examples of that which is prohibited and permitted…. Even these additional commandments are rabbinic in origin—they are based on this Torah principle to be clean, pure, and distinct from the average man who is focused on pleasure to a disgusting degree. This is the manner of the torah to specify examples and then to give the general principle to enable generalization to new situations. We find this also concerning the laws of business and proper relations between men concerning theft, and fraud etc., then the Torah says “Be uprights and good in G d’s eyes” (Devarim 6:18). This tells you how to evaluate the appropriateness of all activities—not just those specified in the Torah.
shoshi said...
ReplyDelete...it's enough for the women to know that they are within a moral system were their husband is allowed to cheat them.
This statement clearly shows that you have not been listening to anything anyone has told you in these discussions.
...in the non-religious world, there is a big issue on husbands helping their wives with household chores. But as far as I understood you, it would "lack halakhical thinking" to ask a jewish man to bake challot.
What did Rabbi Eidensohn say that gave you this absurd idea?
lazera:
ReplyDeleteFrom what I understood, a jewish groom never "Swears fidelity" to the bride.
The bride is forbidden to cheat, when she does it, it is called "adultery" and she will be divorced.
The husband is not really forbidden to cheat. If he does, the wife will be told "To save the marriage" (e.g. for the sake of the children).
This is, under the bottom line, what I gathered from our previous discussions.
And I think it is worthwhile to know it beforehand and not to be surprised when the situation arises.
It is increasingly apparent that discussing this issue with shoshi is a waste of time.
ReplyDeleteWe have stated over and over in these discussions that sexual relations outside of marriage are absolutely forbidden. There is no ambiguity about this matter. For shoshi to then state, after all of this discussion, that such behavior is permitted according to Orthodox Judaism is simply ridiculous.
As for "swearing fidelity" - nowhere in the Jewish marriage ceremony does anyone, bride or groom, "swear fidelity". The sexual prohibitions are not the result of some private "deal" made by the bride and groom, they are Jewish law and are fully binding regardless of any oaths the couple might or might not make.
It is true, as we have already discussed at length, that the halachic implications of a wife's extramarital behavior is different from a husband's. If a husband sins in this manner, the couple is not obligated to divorce (as opposed to if the wife sins in this manner).
This does not, in any way, imply that the husband's behavior is not forbidden. It clearly and absolutely is. As a general rule, sinful behavior does not create an obligation to divorce, whether it is eating non-kosher food, violating the Sabbath, or even comitting murder. In all of these cases, no beis din will require a divorce. Clearly, the issue of requiring divorce is quite distinct from the permissibility of the behavior.
If, in such a case, a wife wants a divorce, then the beis din must weigh many factors. In many cases the beis din will side with the wife. In other cases, they will not, believing that the marriage is still worth saving.
I think it is obvious that the intent of your comments is not an honest discussion, but rather to undermine the confidence of Jewish women in their marriages.
You appear to be using a variation of the "Big Lie" propaganda strategy, by simply repeating the same falsehood over and over until everyone gets tired of correcting you.
I read somewhere that a wife is allowed to divorce if her husband takes a second wife (i.e. he is "morally obliged" to divorce her in this case, if she wishes so).
ReplyDeleteCould this be used to morally oblige a husband to divorce in the case he cheats his wife?
"I think it is obvious that the intent of your comments is not an honest discussion, but rather to undermine the confidence of Jewish women in their marriages."
ReplyDeleteNo, I just want to know, for myself, what awaits me.
And from what I gathered, and you repeated it here, I must be prepared to face the situation where my husband would cheat on me and (i would want a divorce) and he does not want to grant me divorce and Rabbanim would not side with me.
That's all.
amazing:
ReplyDeleteshoshi:
before you doubt your husband's devotion to you: why don't you look at the people who do swear fidelity at their marital ceremony.
Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience. For the people who swear fidelity in the non jewish world their divorce rate is significantly higher than us: and often it is do to adultery: not by the wife: but by the husband.
swearing fidelity won't guarantee your husbands devotion: being with him every step of the way and making a marriage together where communcation is clear, you advocate one another and don't make false assumptions about each other and grow with one another not because the two of you look good on paper. but because: the two of you make sense: that is fidelity, unspoken fidelity.
A beis din will side with you if the husband is not fulfilling your needs: which includes if he's sleeping with another woman, than he isn't fulfilling your physical needs, clear enough?