Tuesday, September 9, 2008

Shavei Israel V - Proselytization as kiruv

Guest Post: Recipients and Publicity's comment to "Shavei Israel III - Proselytizing not kiruv/Findin...":
==========================
Bartley Kulp had written criticizing RaP's analysis:
None of this however is remotely connected with Shalvei yisrael's activities. They work with the "Orthodox" Israeli rabbinate. The reason why they omitted mentioning this in the JPost article is that the subject was irrelevant. The hidden Jews of Poland are not Anusim nor are they a lost tribe. Heck nobody at this point is even discussing immigration for these people. This is an issue of kiruv. What makes Polish Jewry unique as a community is that most of them until recently have been living in fear and suppressing their Jewish identity or they do not relate to it. Many of them are just finding out now that they are Jewish because it was not told to them by their parents. Nonetheless they can probably document their authenticity as well as any Jew from the US who is not Frum.

You also use the term "so called anusim". This is a reflection of ignorance. The anusim have been known about and documented for decades now. In fact there is a rather large concentration of them in the south western United States among the Mexican Ethnics there.

Ethiopian Jewry are also very well documented with rabbanim paskening that they are Jewish or that they are almost sure that they are Jewish. For the life of me I have no idea what is trying to accomplish with his postings.
=================
Analysing the words of the Shavei Israel article in the Jewish Press.

Bartley: It was an article in the Brooklyn based Jewish Press , not the Israeli Jerusalem Post (same initials tho, so that is confusing).

Anyhow, the Jewish Press article about "hidden Jews" in Poland described and hence revealed some very disturbing aspects and activities of Shavei Israel. Reading plain English, just look at the terminology and what it said:
"Twenty-two young Poles who recently discovered their Jewish roots"
What "roots" are they talking about? Mother or grandmother was Jewish? Father or grandfather? All of the above? Some of the above? None of the above? Which? After all according to Shavei Israel's website they prepare people for conversions so is that what they have done, or will do, or are doing to this batch of newly-minted "hidden Polish Jews" as well as to others? How far and how wide will this effort be? Will it impact the demographics of Israel if unchecked? It may, given that Michael Freund served Benjamin Netanyahu, is thus linked to the Israeli Zionist governmental establishment and is highly skilled with an MBA from Columbia and a BA from the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton University and huge resources behind him, and lots of good-will from wannabe and soon to be Jews.
"a number of the participants have decided to remain in Israel and continue their studies"
What studies? For conversion? Not for conversion? Since Shavei Israel's website mentions classes for supposed Anusim to convert what were the classes for the "hidden Poles" about? So are these newly discovered former "hidden Poles" like any Anusim who must convert regardless of their claims of "Jewish" lineage? Or are the "hidden Poles" real Halachick Jews? Or are they just gentiles curious about Judaism?

This is not a game. The Shavei Israel website makes it clear how serious they take themselves and the need for Halachic conversions, but from the JP press release/article about "hidden Polish Jews" there is no indication and convergence with the geirut activities taking place at Shavei Israel world headquarters.
"ensure that the younger generation of Polish Jews"
By what standard can we believe that they are truly Halachically "Jews"? especially if we read the rest of what is written in the same piece.
"Currently, there are approximately 4,000 Jews registered as living in Poland"
What does it mean they are "registered"? Who are they "registered" with and who relies on it and what standards are being used here to define being a Jew? Do self-declarations by any Pole (the so-called "Jews by choice") who wants to claim being a Jew count? Is any proof required to be "registered" as Jew in Poland? If so what kind of proof from Jewish sources? Would the Israeli Chief Rabbinate accept these 4,000 Polish Jews as actually being Halachicaly acceptable Jews? And it gets worse...
"experts suggest there may be tens of thousands of other Jews in Poland who to this day are either hiding their identities or are simply unaware of their family heritage."
Wow! If they are hiding does Shavei Israel need to go searching for them? And what does "family heritage" mean? How much family connection must their be to qualify here for having a "family heritage" of being Jewish? What is the official definition of "heritage" from Shavei Israel's point of view? If they did not think this through, then either they were guilty of being simplistic or they are guilty of trying to pull the wool over discerning readers' eyes.
"some Polish Jews chose to sever all connection with Judaism and to hide it from their children and grandchildren, who are now beginning to discover the truth."
Ok, but it does not explain the exact relationships between and lineage of the children and grandchildren. Today's Polish youth are the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of people who lived (and died) in World War II and the Holocaust. Who is Shavei Israel's main target audience? Is this going to be like what happened in the former USSR where anyone with a connection to a Jewish person was able to be brought to Israel resulting in over 300,000 Russian gentiles coming over to Israel with the help of the Israeli authorities? And now that that that well has run dry are the avowedly Zionistic leaders of Shavei israel going to ignite the same thing in Poland, as well as all over Europe or anywhere in the world, so that the tidal wave of non-Halachic Jews who are gentiles who came from the former Soviet Union will be dwarfed by an even larger Tsunami flood of similar non-Jewish gentiles who will utterly destroy what is left of the Jewish character of Israel with their quasi half baked ideas and notions of Torah true Judaism, if at all?

Eizehu chacham, haro'eh et hanolad, and are the leaders of Shavei Israel doing this and wise enough to realize the serious and flawed implications of their well-intentioned efforts to encourage "hidden Jews" -- itself a highly misleading and ambiguous term -- to come over to Israel where they could well become the new majority (after all their are many people who that many nations are the descendants of the Ten Lost tribes!) and if they were to double or triple or more the numbers of the 300,000+ non_Jewish Russians in Israel? What has happened to "once bitten, twice shy" among Jews, or is it like the old saying goes, "a nation that does not remember its history is destined (doomed) to repeat it"!?
"In other cases involving Jewish children adopted by Catholic families or institutions during the Holocaust, the adoptees or their descendants have begun to uncover their Jewish roots."
Again the talk of "Jewish roots" but this time in the context of people who are actively Catholic so that this means they need to go into the Catholic Church's domains and Christian communities. Is this to promote a new wave of "Anusim"? It may then have the corollary that maybe Shavei Israel will launch programs to "bring back" Messianic Jews, Hebrew Christians and Jews for Jesus who would be no less than deserving than the Jews openly and willingly lost within the bowels and jaws of the Roman Catholic Church in Poland and elsewhere. By the way, if you know your Catholic history in regards to baptised Jews the Catholic hierarchy does not allow them to return to Judaism and they fight it with all their might. So Shavei Israel might even ignite a religious holy war over this. Anything is possible in these crazy time.

So if all this is very weird and not in keeping with what Shavei Israel claims on its high falutin website with its bows to the religious establishment while it pursues quite a different dangerous missionary and proselytising agenda for its own self-created goals, making their efforts very questionable for those concerned about Orthodox Judaism being watered down in all sorts of weird ways.

To sum up for now, this is very far from any form of real Kiruv. While the Shavei Israel rabbis and staff may be going through the motions of kiruv and using its parlance and modus operandi, what they are doing is more in sync with Reform Judaism's "keruv" to gentiles and gentile spouses of its members in order to help raise the number of "Jews" and bring them back to an illusory home.

At some time or another this entire effort is going to get the same shaft that Rabbi Drukman got from the Israeli Supreme Rabbinical Courts (and he at least was doing ONLY conversions only via Batei Din, with none of this hokey outreach to "hidden Jews"), and the ultimatum, warning and Publicity that was given to the Recipients of a warning letter from the BADATS to many rabbis not to support and get involved with the Eternal Jewish Family (EJF) efforts to reach out to the gentile spouses of Jews, also being a twisted application and practice of the original Kiruv credo and work.

Oh how the times they are a changin'...

3 comments :

  1. Meir Sheetrit speaks for meSeptember 9, 2008 at 8:20 PM

    Don't go finding me any lost tribes, because I won't let them in any more. We have enough problems in Israel. Let them go to America.

    The Falasha Jews emigrating to Israel: Who needs them? They are all Christians. We need to take care of the future of Israel and this immigration will never finish.

    It's time to bring only Jews to Israel. If we don't discuss these issues now, within a few years Israel will no longer be the State of the Jews. We returned to our homeland after 2,000 years in exile in order to build a Jewish, Zionist state here, not a Foreign Legionaries country. Entrance to the country should not be automatic.

    Seventy percent of emigrants from the Former Soviet Union are not Jewish, the Falash Mura continue to pour in from Ethiopia, Jewish organizations roam the world and bring here quasi-Jews from all sorts of tribes, thousands of illegal residents from the Palestinian Authority live and work here uninterrupted, and thousands Africans infiltrate to Israel, when only a minority are Darfur refugees.

    The way I see it, it is our duty to accept every Jew who wants to and is capable of coming here, on the condition that he feels he shares our destiny and wants his children to live here. Additionally, other criteria must be set, for instance 'criminality tests.' I don't want any criminal being imported here.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Meir Sheetrit words are reported in JPost

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1185893694811&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    ReplyDelete
  3. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 4, 2009 at 10:56 AM

    See: Shavei Israel VI: Going after the Subbotniks of Russia

    posted at EJF - Convert for family happiness (January 1, 2009) on January 3, 2009 7:02 PM.

    "So far, this blog has had 5 posts ("see below) on the controversial activities of the "Shavei Israel" organization that claims in its mission statement: "Our Activities: Shavei Israel opens the door to all who have decided that Judaism and a return to the Jewish people are central to their fate and their identity...Dispatch of Emissaries: Shavei Israel sponsors rabbis and teachers to work with various groups of “lost Jews” in places as far afield as India and the Iberian peninsula. Shavei Israel rabbis are currently posted in Palma de Majorca in Spain, Oporto in northern Portugal, Recife in Brazil, and Krakow and Wroclaw in Poland...Shavei Israel does not proselytize nor does it support any form of missionary activity. Shavei Israel responds to personal expressions of desire to return to Judaism. We believe the Jewish People is a family with links that never vanish completely; our endeavor is to strengthen the links wherever they may have been weakened by history, distance or social parameters. Our work is in complete accordance with Jewish Law and under the ongoing supervision of the Chief Rabbinate of the State of Israel."

    In last week's edition of The Jewish Press, there was another press release/article about a new effort by Shavie Israel. See the full article and then the analysis of it that follows with my comments starting as "RaP":

    "The Jewish Press
    Friday, December 26, 2008.
    Page 36

    Russia’a Subbotnik Jews Get a Rabbi

    [Photo: Rabbi Dr. David Vinitz]

    Rabbi Dr. David Vinitz has been appointed as the new emissary of the Shavei Israel organization to the Subbotnik Jews of Russia. His mission will focus primarily on the community of Vysoky in Southern Russia and will include teaching Hebrew and Judaism, organizing prayer services and conducting a range of diverse educational activities for Subbotnik Jewish youth.

    Rabbi Vinitz, lives in Jerusalem. He speaks Hebrew, Russian and English and holds a Ph.D. in History from Irkutsk State University. In the past he served as rabbi of Irkutsk and East Siberia in Russia, and taught at the Institute for Jewish Studies.

    The saga of the Subbotnik Jews began over two centuries ago, when a group of Russian peasants converted to Judaism. They were forced to pay an extremely heavy price for their choice, including their forced expulsion by Czar Alexander I to the far reaches of the empire.

    Starting with the period of the First Aliyah more than a century ago, thousands of them moved to Israel and quickly found their niche in the heart of the pioneering efforts to settle the land.

    The current Subbotnik Jewish community is estimated to number 20,000 people throughout the former Soviet Union.

    “The dispatch of Rabbi Dr. David Vinitz as Shavei Israel’s new emissary is a result of our expansion of our activities aimed at assisting the Subbotnik Jews of Russia,” said Shavei Israel chairman and founder Michael Freund. “Over the last two centuries, the Subbotnik Jews have been an inseparable part of the history of the Jewish people and Zionism. We cannot and must not turn our backs on the remnants of this very special community, particularly after all that they have endured,” said Freund. “Otherwise, they will assimilate and disappear as Jews, and for that, history would never forgive us"."

    For more information visit www.shavei.org"

    ~~~~~

    "The Jewish Press
    Friday, December 26, 2008.
    Page 36

    Russia’a Subbotnik Jews Get a Rabbi

    RaP: Right off the bat starts the problem with word games. If they are truly (meaning Halachik) "Jews" then "Subbotniks" is supefluous, if not insulting, because Subbotniks do not regard themselves as full Jews nor have they ever been classed or regarded as full or legitimate Halachik Jews by any known cross section of Halachik or rabbinic authorities.

    Just calling them "Jews" does not make them into Jews, and by using the word "Jews" for them in a press release posing as an "article" is already meant to both pre-judge and cast them in a clear-cut light as "Jews" when they are most definitely not.

    For starters, all one needs to do is read up on the Subbotniks and the Wikipedia article about them is as good a place as any to learn a little about this mysterious group. This is what Wikipedia says about the Subbotniks, mainly derived from the Jewish Encyclopedia article about the Subbotniki but it's also evident that pro-Shavei Israel editors have been working on the Sobbotniks article.

    Nevertheless just form the opening paragraph there is obviously a lot to worry about from a Halachik point of view:

    "Subbotnics: "Subbotniks (Russian: Субботники, lit. "Sabbatarians" [Sabbath in Christianity]) are one of the Russian religious bodies known under the general name of "Judaizing Christian sects". On the whole, the Subbotniks originally differed probably very little from other Judaizing societies. They first appeared during the reign of Catherine II, toward the end of the eighteenth century. According to official reports of the Imperial Russian government, most of the sect's followers kept brit milah, believed in absolute monotheism rather than the Christian Trinity, accepted only the Jewish Bible, and observed the Sabbath on Saturday instead of on Sunday. According to the same source, however, some of them, as, for instance, the Subbotniks of Moscow, did not circumcise and believed in Jesus, regarding him as a saint and prophet rather than as God the Son. Other groups reportedly awaited the coming of the Messiah as king of the earth, in line with Judaism's view. Some reportedly revered the New Testament, while others placed it on a lower level than the Old Testament."

    And here's a real scary closing paragraph from the Jewish Encyclopedia's Subbotniki article (also part of the Wikipedia article):

    "Statistics.

    It is impossible at present to determine the exact number of Subbotniki in Russia, the discrepancy between the government statistics and the actual numbers of this sect being so very wide. The official data represent the membership of the sect as numbering several thousand, while the traveler and writer Dinard, who has been in personal contact with the Subbotniki, states that there are 2,500,000. It may be that Dinard included in his figures all of the Judaizing sects. As regards dress, and mode of life apart from their religious rites, the Subbotniki do not in any way differ from the Greek-Orthodox Russians."

    "[Photo: Rabbi Dr. David Vinitz]

    Rabbi Dr. David Vinitz has been appointed as the new emissary of the Shavei Israel organization to the Subbotnik Jews of Russia. His mission will focus primarily on the community of Vysoky in Southern Russia and will include teaching Hebrew and Judaism, organizing prayer services and conducting a range of diverse educational activities for Subbotnik Jewish youth."

    RaP: The significance of the people in "Vyosky" is also to be found inserted into the Wikipedia article that shows the efforts by pro-Shavei editors to advertise, further and legitimate their message on the web to gain acceptance and create "normalcy" when there is none Halachically for them without clearer guidelines and mandates and not relying on vague allowances from the Israeli Chief rabbinate.

    "Rabbi Vinitz, lives in Jerusalem. He speaks Hebrew, Russian and English and holds a Ph.D. in History from Irkutsk State University. In the past he served as rabbi of Irkutsk and East Siberia in Russia, and taught at the Institute for Jewish Studies."

    RaP: Well qaulified, but judging by the photo of him he looks like he may be a convert himself and one questions whether he should be doing this kind of proselytizing work.

    "The saga of the Subbotnik Jews began over two centuries ago, when a group of Russian peasants converted to Judaism."

    raP: Peasants? Not exactly a tribe of scholars and saints. The who, what, when, how and why of all this is lost in time. If the true Halachik Jews lost their identity as a result of enforced atheism and secularization by the Bolsheviks and the Communist totalitarian regimes in the USSR, how much more so is there the greatest of doubt about gentiles, descended from Russian "peasants" yet, who already centuries ago were under a huge cloud of doubt about their motives, beliefs, practices, and status, so that to know who they are today is essentially a near-impossible task.

    At "best" they may be like the Falashas of Ethiopia, but at least the Falashas, like the Hispanic and Iberian Maranos/Anusim started out as Halachic Jews which the Subbotniks did not.

    "They were forced to pay an extremely heavy price for their choice, including their forced expulsion by Czar Alexander I to the far reaches of the empire."

    RaP: So? This is not unusual because antisemites always punish those they deem to be friends or allies of the Jews. The ancient Romans killed out the early Christians, whom they deemed to be a "Judaizing" sect as well, so does that mean that Shavei Israel will be reaching out to 2 billion Christians next (you never know, some people are very ambitious!)

    "Starting with the period of the First Aliyah more than a century ago, thousands of them moved to Israel and quickly found their niche in the heart of the pioneering efforts to settle the land."

    RaP: This is very problematic and what does it say about the personal status of the early pioneers from Russia to Palestine? It may be total hokum too. This is not taught in the classical Zionist history, that "idealistic Subbotniks" (who are after all, people of faith) went hand in hand with the pioneering socialistic secular youth associated with the extreme left of the Labor Zionist movement of Eastern Europe to fight Bedouins and clear the swamps of the Galilee. Are there more accurate books about this, does anyone really know for sure?

    "The current Subbotnik Jewish community is estimated to number 20,000 people throughout the former Soviet Union."

    RaP: But the Wikipedia article and the Jewish Encyclopedia article it's mostly based on quote a researacher who says that there may still be 2,500,000 of them in Russia today -- that makes it equivalant to the same number of half the Halachik Jews living in Israel today, so one cannot imagine the nightmare if they all say they want to come to Israel soon. Yet these are exactly the flames that Shavei Israel is stoking on with the kind of work they now plan to do. Mitzva goreres mitzva, aveira goreres aveira...

    “The dispatch of Rabbi Dr. David Vinitz as Shavei Israel’s new emissary is a result of our expansion of our activities aimed at assisting the Subbotnik Jews of Russia,” said Shavei Israel chairman and founder Michael Freund."

    RaP: This Michaal Freund is a clear and present danger to the Jewish People and to Israel and it is a big wonder that if Rabbi Drukman was dealt with so severely by the Israeli Chief rabbinate for his conversionary work, why is Michael Freund getting away with murder and noone raises a murmur?

    “Over the last two centuries, the Subbotnik Jews have been an inseparable part of the history of the Jewish people and Zionism."

    RaP: Balony. this is Freund sounding like Tropper and displaying his own messianic complex. "Jewish history" has had little to say about the Subbotniks and they have not counted for a bag beans..until now that is... that Shavei Israel and Michael Freund want to bring these CHRISTIANIZED people (who may have had some vaguely ill-defined marginal connection to the Jews of Russia, in some long-lost past) and put them on planes to Isreal. This is as crazy an "outreach mission" if there ever was one!

    "We cannot and must not turn our backs on the remnants of this very special community, particularly after all that they have endured,” said Freund."

    RaP: What? So if a group "endures" bad treatment for good relations with Jews or with Israel for that matter, they deserve to be treated like potential olim? What kind of logic is that? If individuals from a group wish to convert then let them go through the process of legitimate conversion via a Bais Din, but undertaking and allowing mass efforts to misguidedly "help" these unproven people that Michael Freund thinks are "Jews" is nothing less than anti-Halachik proselytization to gentiles.

    “Otherwise, they will assimilate and disappear as Jews,"

    RaP: They are already in a natural-born state of "assimilation" because they are (guess what?) GENTILES, and they never "appeared" as anything serious because they were never regarded as Halachik Jews by any known group of reliable rabbinic authorities or poskim in their time or in ours.

    "and for that, history would never forgive us.”

    RaP: "History" is not God, and Jews don't care how history will judge them or anyone, ever, but how God and the Day of Judgment will judge them. Freund displays such a basic lack of understanding of elementary Hashkofa that it is frightening. This is just generel humanism and liberal do-ggodismwith a Judaic veneer, typical Modern Orthodoxy veering out of control to the far left and gone stark crazy about to crash over the clif and let's pray that it doesn't take too many people overboard with its crazy false messianic agenda!

    "For more information visit www.shavei.org"

    RaP: Yeah, it will scare you!

    ~~~~~

    *The five previous posts relating to Shavei Israel's controversial actvities:

    1) Shavei Israel - Proselytizing or discovering Jews? (September 7, 2008) ("Jewish Press: Children of Hidden Jews Come to Israel September 5, 2008. Twenty-two young Poles who recently discovered their Jewish roots completed a special seminar – the first of its kind – organized on their behalf by Shavei Israel in Jerusalem...")

    2) Shavei Israel II - Exploiting Law of Return Loophole (September 8, 2008) ("Exploiting the loophole in Israel's Law of Return for not having "giyur kehalacha" in it. It was interesting that in the article about the Polish "hidden Jews" published in the latest Jewish Press, which is really just a press release from Shavei Israel that the JP, as is their style, has published, there is not a single word about Halacha and geirus. Not even the broader generalized terminology of "Jewish law" and "conversions" yet when one clicks on to the Shavei Israel website there are many links about that all the work they do is in accordance with the Israeli Chief Rabbinate and that they facilitate real conversions...")

    3) Shavei Israel III - Proselytizing not kiruv/Finding Jews that don't exist (September 9, 2008) ("For once I agree with Jersey Girl's attitude here. [See JPost article she forwarded] But Bartley, while I admit that my post was somewhat far-reaching, it does make a very good point, that in spite of Shavei Israel's posturing and to be blunt, MANIPULATION of the Israeli Chief Rabbinate's requirements for conversions, if you just take a hard cold look at what Shavei Israel is up to, and the JP article was a good example, they are searching high and low for ANY people with the remotest connections to the Jewish people, and they will work with people that halacha is clear are pure gentiles, meshumadim and outright Christians who do not have have a Jewish mother, for a few generations, and may even have been Catholics for a long time and in fact don't even want to "come back" to the Jewish people and Zion so that to get involved in "kiruv-like" activities to haul these people in that is a very controversial, and probably Halachically forbidden, activity...")

    4) Shavei Israel IV - Targets non-Jews for conversion (September 9, 2008) ("Shavei Israel's proselytizes those who are not halachic Jews but are non-Jews of either patrilinear descent or are interested in Judaism (not in conversion) or have a vague sense of belonging to the Jewish people. The halachic sources they rely on (Rav Kalisher & Rav Uzeil) are far from the overwhelmingly accepted mainstream positions. The following is taken from their website FAQ...")

    5) Shavei Israel V - Proselytization as kiruv (September 9, 2008) ("Analysing the words of the Shavei Israel article in the Jewish Press ("...Anyhow, the Jewish Press article about "hidden Jews" in Poland described and hence revealed some very disturbing aspects and activities of Shavei Israel. Reading plain English, just look at the terminology and what it said:..."

    January 1, 2009 2:00 PM


    Tropper belongs in said...
    The Jew who intermarries is NOT serious about his religion. Maybe EJF can convince the Jew to dress up like a frummie, but the Jew who is living with a Gentile is certainly NOT serious about being Jewish.

    What does "love" have to do with marriage??

    If you love heroin, kinky sex or doughnuts does that make any of these "good". A Jewish marriage is based upon Torah values, "love" of someone fun who makes you feel good is not the foundation of a Torah home and never can be.

    There is no such thing as a marriage between a Jew and a person forbidden to him.

    EJF is trying to destroy the Torah min Sinai. It is heresy and Rabbis other than Rav Sternbuch will have to take a strong stand against this or Judaism and the Jewish people as we know both will be destroyed and gone forever.

    EJF denies the entire concept of Torah Imecha and such thinking reduces Jewish women to nothing more than "consecrated wombs".

    Only a Jewish woman can build a Jewish home. To reduce the role of Jewish women in Jewish family life to nothing more than incubation is to deny our heritage and the legacy of Sara Imecha and three thousand years of her descendants.
    [...]

    January 1, 2009 5:13 PM


    The Monsey Tzadik said...
    It is ironic to hear this mussar about family happiness from someone who broke his own home by divorcing his wife in order to marry a younger prettier woman of whom he wanted to mekarev.

    Tropper's path is filled with broken families and personal tragedies caused by him (see Gideon Busch) . His talmidim are expected to cut off any connection with their family if the family does not become observant. When couples have observance differences as it is common with BT couples Tropper tell the more observant spouse to divorce the less observant spouse.

    Even among the couples who got converted by the EJF there are divorces, partly because Tropper and henchman interfered in their marriage.

    The EJF set for each convert family a teacher/chavrusa/elder where they have to report (by phone) daily or few times a week. The elder then report to Tropper and if he hears something which does not please him (which usually has something to do with Modern Orthodox practices) he threatens to revoke the conversion and sometimes he does."

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