Wednesday, December 25, 2013

Erosion of trust is the root of all Divorce impasses.

guest post by  MH

I am a man who for the past year has been personally enveloped in a contentious disputed divorce initiated by my wife. In recent weeks I have met and spoken to several men who for one reason or another are refusing to give their wives a religious divorce, effectively creating a religious equivalent to, self-directed and self- imposed civil contempt.

What I personally learned early on in the divorce process is that when a woman today asks for a divorce, what they are really trying to accomplish is to divorce from the husband not only themselves but their children, property and future earnings. In the secular courts a man has no voice, with a few lies and twisted truths a woman can easily accomplish her divorce, effectively reducing the man to visitor status (often supervised) in his children's life and financial ruins.

The question begs how the situation erodes to the point where a husband refuses to give his wife a religious divorce?

The answer can be summed up into three words “erosion of trust”.

Jewish law dictates that a man does not have to give his wife a divorce just because she demands it, this is a power and property given to man by G-d and no one has the right to question G-d. If we chose to be religious then we chose to abide by G-d’s laws period!

There are situations where a legitimate Beis-Din can try to coerce a man to grant his wife a divorce but it seems legitimate Rabannim are scarce, the laws regarding those situations are very strict and the correct lawful coercion methods are very limited and mostly ineffective.

A common theme among all the men I have spoken to whom are in this (Agunah \ civil contempt) stalemate situation, have all with their own words and stories described to me a similar process. They were all forced unwillingly to travel a path in the gender biased secular courts that systematically and effectively destroyed them personally whilst simultaneously eroding any and all trust in their wives to the point where they can no longer trust them at all. Just like the civilized world has learned that we cannot negotiate with terrorists, trusting their wives has  become impossible much akin to terrorists.

The secular courts open door policy to all women especially to the orthodox women that they see as repressed, creates a state where once trust has evaporated a man has almost no other alternative other than to use the one G-d gave him.

The deeper a man proceeds into the bowls of the corrupt, skewed and gender biased secular courts, the more the trust erosion proceeds uninhibited. There is a point during this process that I have termed uncivil-divorce critical mass, once that point is reached there seems to be almost no way to return and trust has probably gone for good.

Without trust negotiations are futile. Without trust there is no point in arguing because without trust the wife is viewed as a terrorist and therefore any and all attempts to negotiate is futile. If a woman has tasted the sweet waters of the secular divorce court very little can be done to stop her from returning even after mutually agreed settlement's.

The solution to all these divorce stalemates on both sides of the sexes is to prevent the erosion of trust before it can even begin and in the cases that it has already occurred to try and fix the trust breach before attempting to negotiate or mediate a settlement.

117 comments :

  1. "I am a man who for the past year has been personally enveloped in a contentious disputed divorce initiated by my wife."

    80+% of divorces are initiated by the wife.

    "What I personally learned early on in the divorce process is that when a woman today asks for a divorce, what they are really trying to accomplish is to divorce from the husband not only themselves but their children, property and future earnings."

    Exactly correct.

    " In the secular courts a man has no voice, with a few lies and twisted truths a woman can easily accomplish her divorce, effectively reducing the man to visitor status (often supervised) in his children's life and financial ruins."

    Nebech this is true.

    "Jewish law dictates that a man does not have to give his wife a divorce just because she demands it, this is a power and property given to man by G-d and no one has the right to question G-d."

    This is precisely true and the law of the Jewish people.

    "There are situations where a legitimate Beis-Din can try to coerce a man to grant his wife a divorce but it seems legitimate Rabannim are scarce, the laws regarding those situations are very strict and the correct lawful coercion methods are very limited and mostly ineffective."

    True, and according to Jewish law the type of situations this is permissible are excruciatingly rare. And rightly so.

    The bottom line for any man shlepped into divorce court by his wife is that he must adamently refuse to issue his wife a "Get" until the entire divorce process, both civilly and more importantly religiously, is completely settled including all custody and financial seperation arrangements.

    And unless all custody and financial separation arrangements are done *strictly* in accordance with Jewish Law, as codified in Shulchan Aruch, the husband must stubbornly refuse to "Get" his wife until she agrees to all halachic conditions.

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  2. This articles sums the situation up regarding the courts extremely well and i commend its author. What the writer alludes to but does elaborate on is just how corrupt Jewish society and its leaders have become. You can go to presentations on Divorce nowadays on a not irregular basis within the charedi community be at the Aguda, Frum Divorce etc and yet you will not find a single mention of the issur of going to arko"oys today. I am not talking about in the YU Schachter crowd but in the brooklyn crowd. Why are siruvim not put on each and every allegedly frum divorce lawyer in Brooklyn? And i can name them if i want quiet easily. They daven in chassidish shtiblach in many cases. Imagine if one of them ran a brothel? Would there still be silence? Why are the families of the wife in arko"oys who are machzik her in arko"oys not subject to similar treatment? These are the days of cut and paste Judaism. The Agudah is responsible for mamzeirim because it initiated the Get law and let them sue me for saying the truth about them?

    Why is R belsky still walking around and why was nothing done in the R Avromi Rubin case? As divorce unfortunately becomes the norm in the frum community we will have more Tamar Friedman's (not Epstein - she is still an aishes ish), Dodelsons, and many other fake agunahs trying to destroy the get process.

    Why has a bais din not put in cheirem R Dovid Cohen for his fake heterim to women to go to arko'oys?

    I have to disagree with the author regarding giving a get at the end of the process. Every attempt needs to be made to overturn the Nuremberg get Law of Chaim Dovid Zwiebel.

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  3. As I understand it. Jewish Law gives a man the exclusive right to divorce. As much as I want to disagree and point out that this is sexist. I have to also agree with the author of this post that if its given to a man by his religion and his wife subscribes to that same religion. Then they are both bound by the rules and laws it denotes.

    My question is can civil courts really get involved in these religious matters. Isn't it prohibited by the constitution?

    Additionally I work for a divorce law firm. The erosion of trust the author describes is so true and extends way beyond imagination. I have seen this time and again with our clients.

    My final question to the author is how do you propose to prevent or fix as you say the trust breach?

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    1. I am not sure where you practice law but I can assure you that In Brooklyn NY Supreme Court, Judges in divorce disregard the constitution on a daily basis. I have personally witnessed a judge order a Jewish man to give his wife a Get against his wishes with the threat of jail for contempt.

      Its a common practice by which lawyers collude with the clerk's and judges to create a situation where a Jewish man is put into an impossible situation regarding Pendente Lite support orders and when he ultimately falls behind far enough they hit him with the option of paying up, jail for contempt or give a Get. This is blatant Civil Court Get coercion.

      Additionally NY has two DRL laws that although veiled are specifically there to coerce a Get. The first law that went into affect in 1984 denies the plaintiff a civil divorce if a Get hasn't been issued. The second Law that went into affect in 1992 horrifically involves the defendant as well. The laws are phrased "removal of barriers to remarriage" the neutral language is there in order for them to appear not to target any specific religion. So the laws are anti constitutional but not blatantly so.

      As to preventing or fixing trust erosion, that is a tough nut to crack. But I think we can all agree that Arkaos and the Civil Divorce Courts is most definitely not the way to go!

      So a good start would be to collectively stop the corrupt Rabbanim and institutions that are enabling the women to pursue that course illegally from a Jewish Law standpoint.

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  4. Ben torah, can you source this 80% claim?

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  5. I would also like to add to Ben Torah final comment. From a legal standpoint not until the judge signs the divorce decree or settlement is anything truly final. In fact most settlements are amended via fax to and from our office to the court multiple times prior to the final draft.

    This question is to Dass Torah.

    If a man is in civil court all be it reluctantly and he refuses to settle for whatever reason and it goes to trial. The judge does not know jewish law and therefore will probably not rule correctly. What does one do then. How does one proceed? It seems like you are creating an impossible situation.

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  6. the problem is the organization ORA who instructs the women to not settle with their husbands for 2 reasons. 1) By creating acrimony they ensure that their cause (Aguna organization) is a worthy one and can raise their number of active cases in a way that will promote good fundraising tactics 2) If women would settle there wouldnt be such an "aguna crisis" as they put it. So even in cases where the men are innocent, they still attack the man and brandish him recalcitant. I know this firsthand from someone who used to work for ORA and left them when he saw the unfair treatment of men as well as the lies that they promote. Most Jewish divorces can be settled if the woman is not shown OVER-FAVORITSM by the corrupt rabbis and ORA and therefore see no way out other than negotiations. The way the system is presently built, is that the woman is fed lies by ORA that she must not negotiate as this will weaken their cause for other women, with the promise that ORA will use intimidation and other methods to extract forcibly A GET FOR FREE! This is the reality of today. The men have no say! Even if they propose a reasonable offer, it is usually rejected by the other side thanks to ORA and the feminist machine. Nothing will change in Jewish divorce unless the rabbis disband ORA and all other feminist activists that threaten rabbis as well if they dont conform to their idealogy. Their idealogy is '" EVERY WOMAN RECEIVES AN UNCONDITIONAL GET UPON DEMAND AND WHERE AND WHEN SHE WANTS IT WITHOUT DUE PROCESS AT A NEUTRAL AND FAIR BAIS DIN AND AFTER RAPING THE MAN IN THE SECULAR COURT SYSTEM WITHOUT BEARING ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR VIOLATING HALOCHO AND PROCEEDING TO THE CIVIL COURTS. Welcome to the new Feminist Torah Yeshiva University and its affiliates!

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    1. This is bogus. ORA only gets involved after a seruv has been issued and other means are exhausted. Of course, if you think the problem is that women should just give in to blackmail, none of this really matters.

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    2. Feminist Torah Yeshiva University???
      The pre-nup is now standard for the YU crowd. There will not be future cases in that community. The two main cases discussed on this blog involve chareidim! YU and the BDA have nothing to do with it. They are cases with no pre-nup and cases of chareidi rabanim trying to solve the problem. Friedman and Epstein involved RSK and Belsky, primarily and Weiss Dodelson was a Feinstein/Kotler case.

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    3. "ORA only gets involved after a seruv has been issued" - This is a BIG LIE and James the ORA troll and propagandist knows it.

      In the Tamar Friedman case and many other cases where ORA unleashed its goons against decent Jewish fathers, either no seruv was ever issued against the husband, or else the so-called "seruv" was utterly bogus.

      ORA eagerly exploits these pathetically fraudulent "seruvim" issued like candy against men whose wives are in archaos, making it appear like ORA is enforcing halacha. In fact ORA is enforcing feminist tyranny and destruction of Jewish families and destruction of Torah law.

      No seruv ever issued in Tamar Friedman case, while husband was viciously harassed by ORA thugs:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhFQA1VP5Fs

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    4. James: The Friedman/Esptein case is MO not Chareidi. Plus many many MO marriages -- perhaps even a majority, even currently, do NOT USE the prenup.

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    5. James -- ORA gets involved and pressures and protests the husband even if there is NO SIRUV.

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  7. is a PNA accepted in the secular courts - for a moment let's disregard the halachic machlokes - a PNA which would protect the husband's assets is a good defence against malicious secular courts.

    Come to think of it, some people do write up PNA's, eg Donald Trump.

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  8. "Jewish law dictates that a man does not have to give his wife a divorce just because she demands it, this is a power and property given to man by G-d and no one has the right to question G-d. If we chose to be religious then we chose to abide by G-d’s laws period!"
    Nonsense. Nobody is questioning your power. ORA was created precisely because they recognized that power. You may have the power but that doesnt make it the right thing to do. How about this:
    "Jewish law dictates that a man has a right to marry off his 12 year old daughter. This is a power given to a father and no one has a right to question G-d. If we choose to be religious then we choose to abide by G-d's law period." Sure you have the power but if you do that, you are scum.
    The Torah is a system of laws. Laws of inheritance cut out the daughter. So Chazal invented Shtar Chatzi Zachar. That is not questioning G-d's law.
    G-d also said that if the witnesses to the kiddushin are not shomer torah u'mitzvos then the whole wedding is void.

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    1. You are blatantly missing the point.

      The women in over 80% of the cases are the ones initiating the Divorce but they have no Halochic right to do so. The men Do Not want to get divorced and so anti halochic methods are used.

      The United States Civil Divorce courts are not actually courts where justice prevails they are more akin to ad hock court martials, the outcome in a civil divorce is predetermined and the paths to getting there are extremely costly and destructive. Civil divorce cases only serve to line the pockets of the professional’s that participate in the process. For all practical purpose a man in divorce court might as well be a mute because no one hears, listen or cares to hear what he has to say. What the man eventually learns is that men and women in the United States are not equals in divorce. The woman is always portrayed as the weaker sex in fear of her life, and of course the children and home almost always go to the mother because she’s the one that gave birth. The man is reduced to a visitor in his children’s life and he has to pay dearly for that privilege. If a man doesn’t earn enough to support his former spouse and children comfortably he is told to get another job and work harder. If he still can’t afford it and gets behind on his payments he will most definitely be sent to jail.

      Debtor’s prison is still functioning in divorce and not even bankruptcy can protect a man.

      The best advice for any man facing an aggressive ex-spouse in a contentious divorce is to give her everything she wants right away because if you don’t it will cost you a fortune, will be physically and emotionally draining and in the end you will find out that she will get what she wants and more from the courts. The down side is that you may lose your parenting rights to your children so at the very minimum fight for your parenting time.

      Civil is anything but Civil. True Jewish people don't prescribe to civil laws when it comes to marriage. Its people like you who cant rationalize Emess and Emmunah that will destroy us all from within.

      Non of us know why Chazer is ossur. Perhaps we can collectively rationalize that it is kosher and all begin to fress chaza?

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    2. I got the point. You keep stressing that the Torah gives men the power and that secular courts are anti-men.

      I responded to the first point by showing that power is not automatically right. The Torah is giving us the process like it does for inheritance. Guess what? That process gives you the power too engage your 12 year old daughter. If you do that you will be within G-d's law but you will also be scum.
      Regarding the second point, if you dont like the laws of the land, dont get married. You can have kiddushin and chuppa without secular marriage. At least the secular court judge will get disbarred for ex parte communication with only one party. Gestetner will issue a psak without hearing both sides.

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    3. Torah Law overrides secular law when there is a conflict.

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  9. Consider how men are treated by the authorities and indeed by many communities and just imagine that women could divorce themselves. The position of the husband within the family would by even worse in many families.

    Be no apologetic for the laws of our Torah.

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  10. If I were ever, G-d forbid, in a divorce struggle with a man who used the get as a weapon, I would prefer to live out my days unmarried than let such a rosha have any power over me. And, if he withholds the get out of spite (the few "agunas" I knew in the 1990s were such examples) then he is proving that I am right to get him out of my life.

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  11. "Jewish law dictates that a man does not have to give his wife a divorce just because she demands it, this is a power and property given to man by G-d and no one has the right to question G-d."

    Jewish law also provides that someone who borrows another person's farm implements without permission is a thief. Nonetheless, Chazal point out that the Torah also commands certain behavior from the owner of the implements when he is asked to lend them--see Rashi in Parashat Kedoshim. Similarly (and indeed from the same passuk) the Torah requires a divorcing couple to treat each other respectfully and with brotherly love. This applies to both spouses and precludes withholding a get (or acceptance of a get, or access to children) to spite the other spouse.

    Also, may I respectfully suggest trust between the couple has broken down long before a wife tries to separate a husband from their children. After all, if it hadn't, she would not be doing that. Thousands of people, frum Jews included, manage to divorce without things breaking down to that point.

    While I won't judge any individual's marriage, failed or otherwise, I will observe that in writing about the Weiss case, Rabbi Eidensohn suggested (I don't know if this is true or not) that the husband entered the marriage expecting (following what R. Eidensohn called the normative position of Shas and posekim) that he would be the boss. I noticed at the time that Rabbi Eidensohn did not see fit to mention any of the things Chazal had to say about how attentive a husband should be to his wife's feelings. My guess is that husbands who pay full attention to the latter find that, even if the marriage ends in divorce, that their wives are not acting so vindictively.

    I would not pay much attention to the statistics of who initiated a divorce. I know of two cases where the wives initiated divorces after their husbands requested to have their mistresses move in. In one case after more than 40 years of marriage. Who initiated the divorce and who causes it may not be that same.

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    1. Also, may I respectfully suggest trust between the couple has broken down long before a wife tries to separate a husband from their children. After all, if it hadn't, she would not be doing that. Thousands of people, frum Jews included, manage to divorce without things breaking down to that point.

      That may be true but we cant question our laws. And our laws are very specific as to when and how a woman may demand a divorce.

      Are you suggesting that we throw out the laws because they no longer suit our purpose or modern societies way of thinking?

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    2. The laws are specific when a beis din can force a divorce. They do not restrict when a woman may request one from her husband. There are a great many things that one may not demand that should, nonetheless, be granted on reasonable request.

      And the mitzvot of the Torah do constrain how husband and wife treat each other, both during the marriage and as it breaks up. And how we are commanded to treat one another does somewhat depend on expectations set by society.

      Actually, posekim have varied the conditions under which a a beis din will compel or pressure a husband to give a get somewhat with the times. For an example our host is fond of, the later Rishonim changed the p'sak and stopped the practice of the Geonim and the Rishonim through Rashi and Rambam of forcing a get under a claim of ma'us alai.

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    3. The author of this article clearly states in the final Sentence

      "The solution to all these divorce stalemates on both sides of the sexes is to prevent the erosion of trust before it can even begin and in the cases that it has already occurred to try and fix the trust breach before attempting to negotiate or mediate a settlement."

      The author clearly eludes to the fact that trust may have eroded long ago but repairing the breach in trust is a must before any resolution can be sought.

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    4. It certainly would be better that way, but to say that if they can't restore trust they have no choice other than to stew forever unable to move on and remarry isn't right. What does that accomplish other than to add still more bitterness?

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    5. Mike -- a modern day posek cannot on his own overrule Shulchan Aruch and the consensus psak of the Achronim.

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    6. Of course not, and I never suggested otherwise. But a modern day posek can and does figure out how to apply the halacha to the circumstances he has to deal with. A great many areas of halacha are conditioned explicitly on societal practice including, according the Rema, division of marital assets.

      And that really has nothing to do with the fact that the Torah always requires us to act with menschlichkeit.

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    7. Where does the Rema ever say division of marital assets are conditioned on social practices?

      He does not.

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  12. A few years ago, a couple in the UK, who had gotten married in Israel, went to Uk courts for a divorce. The Judge recognised the halachic nature of the Kiddushin and Gittin, and said that the matter should be resolved according to jewish law and Israeli law. This was beneficial to the man, since otherwise he would have been destroyed in the UK secular courts. The Beis Din in UK has special status in the secular courts, and that is very helpful to Jews in the UK, thanks to us having a Chief rabbi who has a heter from Her majesty to have a non Xtian congregation in what is still "halachically" a Christian country. I don't think it is so easy in America .

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  13. a beautiful accurate article. the comments are also excellent.
    the solution -- very simple. a couple should not get married until a halachic prenup is signed. the prenup says that in case of a separation all issues including children and property must be settled by a bais din of zablah. if either side goes to arkoos there would be severe monetary penalties. all settlements must be 'din' not 'korov ledin' or 'peshara'. if either side objects to the settlement they have a right of appeal to another bais din of zabla, and the bais din must prove that they paskened din and not korov ledin or peshira. a get must be given if and only if the bais din paskens that the husband is mechuyav to give one midin. if either side violates the agreement or goes to arkoos beore or after the get their will be penalties.
    such a prenup would protect all sides as well as protect torah.

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    1. AND PART OF THE PRENUP MUST BE THAT BOTH THE HUSBAND AND WIFE MUST LIVE WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE OF THE MARITAL HOME UNTIL THE YOUNGEST CHILD REACHES 18

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    2. AND PART OF THE PRENUP MUST BE THAT BOTH MOTHER AND FATHER MUST LIVE WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE OF THE MARITAL HOME UNTIL THE YOUNGEST CHILF REACHES 18 - OR ELSE THE PENALTIES KICK IN

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    3. there is also a Post-Nup , ie if a couple already are married, they can still do such an agreement, just in case. BDA have this option as well - I don't know if Hareidi BAtei Din accept any Prenups...

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  14. "this is a power and property given to man by G-d and no one has the right to question G-d. If we chose to be religious then we chose to abide by G-d’s laws period! "
    Gods Rule are to listen to the Sages explanation of his Laws!!!
    Darcheiha Darchei Noam; God does not want you to use a get to cause pain to your spouse!!!
    A get is meant to to give a framework to marriage , not to turn it into a prison!!!
    As soon as a marriage is over you are supposed to give the get - marriage is a holy thing and when its over you have to end it , not misuse it!!!
    Reb Chaim Vital the main Talmid of the Arizal said that a persons true test is how he treats his wife - you and all your despicable ilk are going straight down!!!

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    1. i agree 100%. BUT REMEMBER A MARIAGE IS OVER WHEN HALACHA SAYS IT'S OVER AND HALACHAH SAYS THERE IS A CHIUV GET - NOT WHEN THE WIFE SAYS IT'S OVER AND WANTS A GET

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    2. I think the point of this article is to explain how it comes to be used by men that would normally never think do so and how "trust erosion "via Arkaos is the cause.

      The problem here is that all Orthodox Jews are not in a marriage but in marriages plural. They basically are in two marriages simultaneously, they have their civil and religious marriages and the laws that govern both are completely opposing.

      Obviously a woman will do very well in civil divorce courts but what happens when an Orthodox Jewish woman drags her husband to Civil divorce court because corrupt Rabbanim enabled her to do so, destroys him with the process, erodes trust to an irretrievable level and then says please give me my Get now.

      Two wrongs don’t make it right! but if you are the person that is wronged how sure are you that you will do what is considered right?


      Jewish law does not recognize irreconcilable differences. Plain and simple. It could not be more clearer than that. A women has no right under Jewish law to unilaterally declare the marriage over.

      Jewish law does not allow a woman to demand a divorce either. She is allowed to approach a Jewish Court and ask to be released from a marriage based on the fact that her husband physically abuses her and that she literally is in mortal danger or that he is disgusting, but disgusting is literal in that he deals with and smells like manure. The burden of proof is tremendous and even if successfully proven the Court is still limited in options regarding coercing the husband to grant a divorce.

      In today’s day and age a man given such power over a woman is considered unconscionable. To be an observant orthodox Jew is a choice. Modernistic views cannot change codified Jewish Law. Civil Laws cannot be written to change Jewish Laws. It is possible to amend Jewish laws but in today’s day and age that would require every Rabbi from every sector of the Jewish race to unify and unilaterally agree to change the law. The chances of that happening are slim to none.

      Jewish law does not allow any litigation to take place in a secular court unless a Jewish Court has given permission. Litigants cannot even willing elect to adjucate disputes in a secular court without permission. In divorce cases a Jewish Court cannot give a woman permission to go to secular court if a husband does not want to get divorced. In cases where domestic violence and or sexual abuse is certain then a Jewish court can give permission for a woman to go to a secular court but the permission can only be limited to orders of protection.

      If one choses to be an Orthodox Jew, then one choses to abide by all the laws that govern the religion. Jewish laws cannot be changed or altered in any way no matter how incorrect (based on or modern ideas)they may appear to be, The only thing that can change is ones choices.

      We have to stop Trust Erosion at its source and that is the corrupt Rabbanim and the Arkaos they falsely enable.

      The Chillul Hashem has to end now!


      CAUSE AND EFFECT. TRUST ERROSION.

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    3. My husband brought his pornography addiction into our bedroom when we got married decades ago. Can I consider that "dealing with manure"? Also, he disregards all the boundaries of niddus. I discovered this in the early weeks of our marriage, but I knew he wouldn't give me a get, so I didn't apply for one. I wish I hadn't been so young and stupid! And how come the fact that my husband won't leave me alone when I'm a nidda doesn't figure in your above list?

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    4. Wiser: Who said any of those issues you complain of gives you the halachic right to receive a Get?

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    5. It would be a mekach taus case. She did not know he was an arvayan and if she would go to B"D right away they could force a get.

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  15. Without trust, a marriage cannot survive. So you yourself are making a point in favor of giving a get.

    You are wrong when you think that the fact that g-d apparently gave you the POSSIBILITY of refusing a get means that it is a GREAT MITZWAH to refuse a get.

    Moreover, let me ask you point blank: do you abstain from sex? Because if you are having affairs while being married, you might as well give the get and marry your mistress.

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    1. It seems you can not read or comprehend what was written. Perhaps its beyond your comprehension. But the trust erosion as this article clearly depicts stems directly from the Arkaos that is in of itself blatantly ossur. Just because we don't understand why Jewish Law gives the man the power to grant a Get does not give us a reason to abandon basic halocha.

      Its simple a woman can not request a divorce without valid halachic reasoning. Irreconcilable differences does not apply in Jewish Law.

      A woman using Civil Courts to force a marriage to end without valid reasoning is not only NOT entitled to a Get. Shes a Mordes and not entiteled to ANYTHING!

      Stop the Trust Erosion. Be a Jew and abide by our laws. Or be a Goy. Its a choice. Don't try to change the Jewish laws for the rest of us just because it suits your purpose or agenda.

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    2. "Irreconcilable differences does not apply in Jewish Law."

      Of course they do. A husband could give a divorce on a whim, provided he paid the ketubah...

      So don't tell me that halacha is about stability in marriage.

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    3. Only the husband has the right to divorce-on-demand according to halacha. (Rabbeinu Gershom took away that right from Ashkenazi husbands.) Wives never have the right to divorce-on-demand.

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    4. A husband can give a divorce on a whim, according to the Torah, but a wife cannot receive a Get on a whim according to the Torah.

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    5. M.& Don:

      See, now you perfectly formulated the problem!

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    6. Well: It is sad that you consider the Torah HaKEdosha to be (to quote your exact words) "the problem".

      No, "Well", the Torah is correct and you are incorrect even if you cannot understand why the Torah gave husbands the unconditional right to divorce and denied wives the right to divorce.

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    7. Rabbi Gershon could not understand that either, so he granted the wife the right to refuse divorce.

      I am just saying that your representation that the torah wants stability is wrong, since, originally, divorce could be had on any whim of the husband, provided he paid the ketuba.

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    8. Well: Rabbein Gershom gave wives the right to refuse to divorce; he did not give wives the right to divorce. And Rabbeinu Gershom is my biggest proof. Rabbeinu Gershom gave wives the same right husband's always had -- namely to refuse to divorce. So we see from Rabbeinu Gershom how important it is for a single spouse to unilaterally refuse their spouse's demand for divorce. Rabbeinu Gershom even extended that right from only husband's to give the same right to wives. The right to refuse their spouse's demand for a divorce.

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  16. Avf,

    Can we assume that you are a female ?

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  17. These aforementioned Gittin are over leasiyasan, that is moving out with chid(ren) creating new facts on the ground, much before it is over. Many times it is used as choking leveridge, you either comply to my whims, or you're out. That is the classic example why G-d does not not want to rush into things while hotheaded. Boker veyoda Hashem. The same reason goes for creation of a Ksubah, and he be in charge of his own free will.

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  18. The diehard feminists on this blog just will not admit to four basic facts which are indisputable.
    1) It is prohibited from going to secular court and if you do go against halocho you lose your rights in bais din no matter what.
    2) secular courts have laws even in the best of cases which are usually the antithesis of the Torah.
    3) Claims by James that the corruption in the rabbinic courts is as bad secular courts is a myth. Please explain how botei din can cause you to run up bills just for the litigation alone of $300k plus. In any case it is not that hard to avoid a corrupt bais din. The problem is that James considers rav gestetner corrupt because by his own admission he doesn't believe in botei din which means he doesn't believe in halocho. One cannot have a sensible dialogue with someone whose starting point is the antithesis of the Torah.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @Stan - James (Jeremy Stern?) and his ORA masters are modern day equivalents of the ancient Jewish misyavnim. Except that now these misyavnim prostrate themselves before the gods of goyish feminism and police state oppression of fathers, and manipulate the Jewish sheeple with bogus claims of rescuing oppressed "agunot".

      These misyavnim did not succeed to destroy Judaism then, and they will not succeed now.

      Delete
    2. 1. So Weiss lost his right to go to BD when he went to secular court?
      2. Secular courts can not have laws. They enforce laws. If you dont like the laws, you can either change them, or not get married civilly.
      3. Causing expensive legal bills is not a sign of corruption.

      Stan, learn how to read hebrew and then we can talk. (In case you forgot, I am referring to this, for which you have not apologized:
      Remember this:
      stanNovember 25, 2013 at 5:58 PM

      James since we don't really know who you are there is no issur here of what I am going to ask. If you cant translate a bit of basic hebrew how dare you start accusing rav gestetner of violating halocho. You have made accusations of violations and I have countered with challenges as to why you dont explain the violations of halocho of the BDA. I dont wish to sound arrogant but if you cant translate how can you be so categoric and vociferous in your opinions?

      Again to blig owner I am only asking these questions since James is really anonymous and to highlight fact that those holding just give a get regardless of consequences are sadly misinformed by their MO leadership.
      Reply
      Replies

      dotoNovember 25, 2013 at 9:29 PM

      um stan? It's not hebrew- it's yiddish!!!
      JamesNovember 25, 2013 at 9:41 PM

      Stan,
      Do you wish to apologize for your baseless accusation?
      Superintendant ChalmersNovember 25, 2013 at 10:24 PM

      It appears that Stan, for all of his railing about halacha and forced gittin, is actually not familiar with either Hebrew or Yiddish.

      This is just too absurd for words.)

      Delete
  19. this is a nice article about arkaos

    http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/Arkaos%20V1.3.pdf

    ReplyDelete
  20. Women have made divorce open warfare. They justify this behavior because Jewish Laws seem to have been written to suppress there perceived inalienable rights. But we are Yidden and we adhere to Halochah not common law and certainly not civil laws that are designed to circumvent Halochah.

    LADIES LISTEN UP. It simple you are not automatically entitled to a divorce just because you ask for it and or publicly declare the marriage over. G-d, Torah and basic Hilchos Gittin are not on your side.

    Your daddy's may have spoiled you and taught you that you can have whatever you desire, but in marriage and divorce you have to face it G-d and Jewish Laws trump even DADDY! and say YOU JUST CAN NOT GET EVERYTHING ON DEMAND. THERE IS NO DIVORCE ON DEMAND PERIOD!

    So stop your warfare! Stop eroding your husbands trust! and please above all stop your whining!

    Because face it once you used up all your ammunition and still have not got what you illegally demanded your husbands trust at that point has been so eroded that he probably wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "that he probably wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire"

      You described very well the state of mind of most get-withholders.

      If he does not want to stay married, why does he withhold the get? That's clearly an abuse of halacha.

      Delete
    2. Who said he doesn't want to stay married? Perhaps he does. And if he does that is his G-d given right.

      Delete
    3. well; it's very simple why he withholds a get because he want's to be able to see his kids and want's to get back money that she took from him against halacha

      Delete
  21. @mh: I think that you and all your fellow get-refusers just work from a wrong assumption: you think that get-refusal will make the situation better.

    In reality, it makes the stale-mate worse.

    Like bunsa bayis, I would rather suggest that a wife renounce a get rather than give in to extortion by a rosha husband .

    time will come when he will beg her for a get on his knees...

    Or she will be freed from him by becoming a widow...

    For this reason alone you should not withhold a get: so that your ex-wife should not pray for you to die.

    ReplyDelete
  22. There are valid reasons for a husband to withhold a Get [or for a wife to decline accepting a Get] and there are invalid reasons to withhold a Get.

    Examples of some valid reasons to withhold a Get:

    The husband [or wife] wishes to remain married despite their spouses demand for divorce.

    The husband wants to continue living with his children in his home and a divorce will cause his children to live outside his home.

    A spouse is attempting to [or has] receive custody arrangements that are against Jewish Law.

    A spouse is attempting to take [or has taken] marital assets that are halachicly owned by their spouse.

    Examples of some invalid reasons to withhold [or refuse to accept] a Get:

    A spouse wishes to spite their spouse.

    A spouse wishes to punish their spouse.

    A spouse is attempting to demand marital assets or money that they are not halachicly entitled to.

    A spouse is attempting to demand custody arrangements that they are not halachicly entitled to.

    The above are only a partial list of some examples.

    ReplyDelete
  23. "Jewish law dictates that a man does not have to give his wife a divorce just because she demands it, this is a power and property given to man by G-d and no one has the right to question G-d. If we chose to be religious then we chose to abide by G-d’s laws period!"

    Pure nonsense. Jewish law does not forbid the consumption of human flesh nor does it explicitly forbid rape. Derech Eretz Kodma La'torah. Not every self evident demand of human decency must be explicit in the Torah. If a lady demands a Get she has a right to get one. The entire world fights custody battles in secular court - Jewish people can also.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Halacha is opposed to divorce-on-demand.

      Delete
    2. If a lady demands a Get, Halacha SPECIFICALLY states in many instances it is PROPER to deny her one.

      Delete
    3. A woman most certainly does NOT have the right to receive a Get simply because she woke up one morning and decided she wants one.

      Delete
    4. Anonymous,
      I have seen people on this blog whose ignorance even exceeds their enthusiasm. But to say that Judaism has no source forbidding rape, this means that you don't go to shull every Shabbos to hear the Torah being read. According to you, anything you think is proper is the Torah. So make it up. And Derech Erets comes before the Torah. Where did you see that statement? Is it in the Torah? Or where? I know people use it, and it has a source in the beginning of Tono Divei Eliyohu, but those exact words I didn't see in early Talmudic works. But who cares? Isn't Torah the act of inventing what you like?

      Delete
  24. I would like to add my own take on this having gone through the Israeli court system during my divorce. I was actually more impressed with the judges in the secular system than with the dayanim in Beis Din. When my former wife initiated the proceedings in a secular court I thought I would lose all I had but it turned out that the judge tried his best to be fair regarding child support and custody issues. At first I was horrified by the idea of divorce and its effect on children etc. but at this point I feel that the courts did the best they could to make a livable compromise in a very tricky situation. The rabbinical court was a farce, they didn't try to make things easier and didn't even provide counselling (I was at least expecting her to be asked why she was taking this step, they didn't even do that).

    ReplyDelete
  25. NEWS - it is not only the secular courts that indulge this malady of mistrust in the search for resolution to marital conflicts. It happens also in Beis Dins.

    It's time we face that the entire culture is immerse within the view of divorce as a legitimate reaction to marital conflict. It's part of a wider mentality that has very little regard for the MITZVAH of developing and MAINTAINING deep, interpersonal bonds. As R' Dovid Eidenson once remarked, he knew of a girl who wanted to divorce because she didn't like her husband's nose. It's not just girls, and not just noses. When people bridle at each other's quirks with the reaction of "get out of my life!" or "I want out of your life!"... maintaining the integrity of kedushas nisuei Yisroel is in big trouble.

    According to my experience in Israeli Rabbanut BD over the last few years, including many talks with other men in similar situations, this mentality is EVERYwhere. At the very beginning of my ordeal, when I mentioned to the dayanim that "all I'm asking for is a few months of counseling, after which I commit myself to granting a Get if she still wants" - the Av BD spat back: "according to my experience, if one side wants out, going to counseling is like scratching an unhealed wound. It only brings out more pus!!"

    And so she has been able to stalemate, making up lie after lie in order to demonize me into looking like another of those demonic aguna-makers... all in order to not face her husband within a serious counseling framework before destroying a quarter century of marriage.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We live in a disposable society, and as consumers are taught from an early age that everything is disposable. Its no wonder that when Women who are notoriously emotional thinkers not logical thinkers live in a society and are taught by there Daddy's from an early age that you can have what ever you want and get rid of whatever you want. When these women have the thought I no longer want my husband they don't thing logically they just think how can I accomplish this.

      So as always they go to there Daddys and there Daddys open the check books and before you know it false heterim \ siruvim and full blown civil court is under way. The n these girls find out that Jewish Laws are in charge not Daddy. So they throw tantrums and cry because they know that's how it always worked for them. Suddenly the whole world says nebech this poor girl, shes an agunah lets have Epstein kidnap and torture him!!!

      Delete
  26. building trust because a man is terrified of the courts isn't trust but a lie.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. you got it backwards the erosion of trust begins in Civil Court. The lies a woman takes with Beis Din and then in Civil Court obliterates trust and turns them into terrorists. And we all know very well that you can not negotiate with terrorists. and so in the end the strong men that can survive the onslaught from their wives via krum Rabbanim and egotistic secular judges are the ones that have a special place in the world to come.

      The rest are weak and have possibly caused a huge Mamzer issue that is just around the corner.

      A legitimate Agunah is free when she is Nifter.

      A false Agunah is free when she decides to comply and free herself of her religious equivalent to contempt by fixing what caused her to be that way to begin with. She is also free to choose not to be a Jew. She is also free if she or her husband passes away. Worst case scenario it is over in 80 years?

      Mamzerim are that way for 10 generations or in other words at least 250 years.

      Delete
  27. "The solution to all these divorce stalemates on both sides of the sexes is to prevent the erosion of trust"

    No, the solution is to achieve shalom bayis and not get divorced in the first place.

    I do not know you and am obligated to give you the benefit of the doubt. But if you are like the vast majority of divorced men, you are divorced because you were not moser nefesh for shalom bayis. You did not hold back your justified and unjustified criticism. You did not go the extra mile to make her feel wonderful. You decided, incorrectly, that putting up with her in the home was worse than all the terrible consequences of divorce you are now experiencing.

    I know a friend married with children to a woman with a mental illness and who is very difficult to live with. He makes his peace her, and he and his children are a thousand times better off as a result.

    ben dov-
    1honestlyfrum.blogspot.com

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. BD, not too sure how you arrived at your knowledge of the 'vast majority' of divorces. I too am required to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your comment is so off the mark, you've made it next to impossible to do so.

      I don't think you've been through a divorce, and I somehow doubt you have done well researched studies of the phenomenon. Please return to learning a simple Mishnah:

      אל תדין את חברך עד שתגיע למקומו

      Delete
    2. I plead guilty to not having done a well researched study, and I "plead" to not having been through a divorce- primarily because I am moser nefesh for shalom bayis. When I was not, problems arose.

      My views are based on experience, common sense, and discussions with some who deal with these issues. These people tell me that midos, not inherent incompatibility, is the main culprit in failed marriages. As for common sense, it is not human nature for women to commonly seek a divorce from a man who is moser nefesh for shalom bays. This is even more true in the frum community. Of course it happens, but it is hardly the usual course of events.

      I do not want to throw away common sense, especially when whatever I have learned confirms it.

      ben dov

      Delete
    3. Sholom Bayis is step two. One can not. Have Sholom Bayis if one does not trust each other.

      Step one is to prevent the erosion of trust. If trust has already been eroded try to fix it.

      The problem is that if trust has eroded to as the author says Critical Mass. It's probably to late. Because. At that point the wife her family her friends have all been indoctrinated into the woman's terrorist cell. The corrupt Rabbanim supporting and enabling her are the Ossama Bin Ladins. There is almost no one left in the community other then fellow corrupt jewish divorce survivors that he will even talk to. And they won't help the womman because they understand exactly what she is.

      If only we would all be the observant Jews we pretend to be then non of this would happen.

      Delete
    4. Trust might have eroded because the husband behaved like a boor for so and so many years, and the wife does not trust him to change after all that time. Or because he caused wounds that cannot be healed.

      Did that ever occur to you?

      All those whining get-refusers never have the idea that they might be the source of the problem. That might be the main source of the problem.

      Delete
    5. MF, I think you are putting the cart before the horse.

      ben dov

      Delete
  28. A MESSAGE TO JEWISH MEN IN DIVORCE SITUATIONS:

    Giving a GET to your wives before all matters are settled al pi halacha may very likely cause your wife to become even more aggressive and dangerous!!!

    Many times men are being ill-advised by inexperienced, cowardly rabbis who tell the husbands that giving a GET before all matters are settled will reduce their wive's hostility. In many cases this is simply not true.

    I have spoken to a number of Jewish husbands who, attempting to pacify their wives, submitted Gittin to their wives before their divorce cases were settled al pi halacha. This mistake by the husbands many times results in their vindictive wives becoming even more aggressive and more emboldened to further destroy their ex-husbands.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A few men I've spoken to who went through the divorce process, all say that they could foresee it at the beginning, most of them before the wedding, but they went through with it anyway.

      Delete
  29. I dont know how anyone can say that erosion of trust is the root of ALL divorce impasses.

    How about cases of abuse where the men want to torture their wives?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Or about cases where the women want to unhalachicly force their husbands to divorce them?

      Delete
    2. I assume you didn't really read the article or you didn't comprehend what was written. The author clearly states that there are legitimate cases where under Jewish law a woman can request a Get!

      What the author is obviously referring to is where a woman has no valid reason she has to invent a valid reason and that's the beginning of the erosion of trust!!!

      Delete
  30. Anonymous above, Shame on you for saying that to him!! He did not chose a divorce.. his WIFE initiated it.. and there are reasons to get divorced. According to your logic women who are being beaten should figure out how to be "moser nefesh for shalom bayis"..

    ReplyDelete
  31. The bottom line here is that we must fight DIVORCE itself. We must stop the divorce racket. We must stop divorce-on-demand. We must encourage and push and even pressure couples to remain married and not divorce.

    Many many many Gedolim and even sociologists have said divorce is far far too easy and far far too frequent. Rav Avigdor Miller zt"l said many times that 99% of divorces in the Orthodox community were avoidable and should not have happened.

    ReplyDelete
  32. There are various factors behind the breakdown of marriage today even in the Torah world. But I would like to relate what happened to me when a woman called me up with "help!" and I told her to come to me with her husband. It seems she had first gotten an order of protection, and then had called him up screaming that the sink was flooding the house. He ran to the house with two big wrenches and the police jumped him and put him into jail. It was Purim that he was in jail. The woman then called me, obviously in fear that he knew a few things that she did not want publicized, and I sat them down in my dining room and straightened things out, at least, that phase of things. But I asked the woman, "Do you want a divorce?" She said she did not. I was puzzled. If you didn't want a divorce, why did you put your husband in jail? She said, "The ladies told me to do it." What ladies? Choshuah ladies. It seems that there are people who sniff out marriages that are problems and advise simple wives to do things that will utterly destroy their lives. But it will increase Agunose, and the large number of Agunose will force the rabbis to change the halacha, which the head of Agunah Incorporated told me is her goal. I thought she would fail to force the rabbis to change the law, but I was wrong. Thus, the atmosphere of hating men and encouraging women to lie and jail husbands and take away their children has become a major part of family life today. Rabbis do things forbidden clearly in Shulchan Aruch such as invalid coercions for a GET that makes mamzerim. There will be hundreds of thousands of mamzerim, children ruined with the worst kind of child abuse, and other than this blog, you don't hear much about it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What's their motive? How do they gain by encouraging hostile divorces and potential mamzeirim?

      Delete
    2. @dovid eidenson
      Why did you not answer to "wiser, not braver" what is the halachical situation in her case.

      I would be very interested.

      So far, the boorish commentators on this blog stated that a husband had a right to disregard hilchot nidda and still stay married...

      Delete
  33. James your claims that I dont kniw Hebrew are as authentic as all your other claims. A system that for something as common and routine as divorce leads to bankruptcy ssimply to pay so called professionals sure is corrupt. What value do these professionals add? Furthermore just google divorce court corruption and see how many hundreds of entries there are. James you are delusional

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The primary definition of corrupt is:
      "having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain."
      The fact that litigation costs so much money is not evidence that anyone is on the take. The easiest solution to prevent these problems is along the lines of what RDE suggested:
      Pre-determine a group of people to resolve disputes.
      BTW, that is not so far off from what the RCA pre-nup accomplishes.

      Delete
  34. Nachman from Lakewood New JerseyDecember 26, 2013 at 9:13 PM

    in the state of New Jersey it is Very easy for any Women to obtain a restraining order against a Man, the Judges in Family courts hand them out like free loly pops all a woman need do is claim (Verbal) "Harrassment" (petty insults and arguments) and boom you got yourself a restraining order which in the state of new jersey is in effect for life, a fist time violation is automatic arrest and fine a second violation is a mandatory minimum 30 day Jail sentence in the county jail. Good Luck!!

    ReplyDelete
  35. I personally know the author of this article. He lived with and stayed in his marriage for many years on my advice and others primarily because of his children.

    I wont go into the issues of the problems but suffice to say the problems had absolutely nothing to do with him or his wife but it was a huge problem non the less. His wife had absolutely no valid reason in the world to ask for a Divorce but instead went to her family and Ohel and got the wrong advice completely.

    A year ago he was comfortable financially, well respected and a proud man in the community, everybody loved him and had nothing bad to say about him. Today he is homeless reject and broken financially and more importantly his reputation ruined by lies and deceit, yet if you were to meet him and talk to him you would never know it.

    He greets everyone with a smile and says life is amazing. With all the hurt that was put on him he still puts up a brave face, in my opinion he is one of the most intelligent and logical thinkers I know.

    Through all of his ordeals he has taken valuable time and has done extensive research on the problem that plagues us today. He has even come up with solutions for women that are Semi Halochicaly valid methods where a woman can get everything she wants even in Secular Courts and still have a valid Get.

    Most importantly he has a solution that he's working on with some great Rabbanim to change the way all of us think and act in this specific field. Their solution will be enforceable with no coercion and will probably save many marriages and will definitely tremendously reduce or even end the Agunah crises.

    When all said and done his trials and tribulations will be a Korban for what will eventually develop out of it and will reunite all facets of the Jewish world specifically in Divorce, marriages and most importantly will force us back into the realm of Torah, Mitzvos, Halochah and make us focus on Sholom Bayis not issurrim and Milchamah.

    This article he wrote is so precise and to the point but it is only a portion of what he has to say and the knowledge he has to part with.

    MT

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @MT,

      Please see this video exposing alleged vicious mesirah & reeshus committed by the "Orthodox" Ohel organization, and exposing the Kangaroo Court justice of the feminist police state. This is the "justice" system that ORA and many "Orthodox" feminist sheeple are so enamored of.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Fut9cWc8c

      Excerpts of the video:

      "I personally participated at a meeting as an advocate for a father at the ACS office...participating from Ohel was a case worker and her supervisor...basically it was a Kangaroo Court where a decision was made in advance to get the father out of the house...they insisted on going to court (for an order of protection against a Jewish father) Erev Shabbos...I found the Ohel case worker to be a liar...this was very terrible, very one-sided...in many cases they do terrible things...the more they show a need for their services, the more government aid they can apply for...it was decided by three black women...when I asked who is the order of protection against...the Ohel supervisor didn't know how many people in the household the order applied to...it was really, really terrible...to throw out the father right before Shabbos...the whole thing is a bluff."

      Delete
    2. I have been Happily married for over 25 years. In the beginning my wife worked and I went to Kolel. After our third child was born I left Kolel moved to Brooklyn and have worked every day and learned every night and hope to continue until I can no longer do so.

      This past summer while my wife and kinderlach was upstate in order to make extra money I worked part time as a courier.

      My second job I got as a courier was to pick up an envelope from a local law office and drop it of at court in down town Brooklyn.

      I completed my job and successfully delivered the envelope on my way out I passed a Frum man sitting on a bench and he smiled at me. I smiled back and continued to the elevator.

      I went down exited the building and then realized that there was something not right about the yid that smiled at me.

      I went back into the building and went through security went back up to the floor but now the man was heavily engaged in conversation with another man.

      I was about to leave again but something stopped me. So I waited for the man to finish. Several minutes later the man sat down on a bench and again looked at me and smiled. So this time I went over and gave him a Sholom Aleichem. The man said that perhaps he dosent deserve a sholom Aleichem. So I of course asked why.

      His response was astounding. He asked me a question. The question was this.

      If a man loves his wife and family and wants to keep it that way but also respects his wife's wishes. What should he do if his wife wants a divorce?

      I was stunned. No words could come out of my mouth. In my silence the man added.

      When does a man start to put his own needs above his Families needs. And when does a man put his wife's requests and perceived needs ahead of what he believes is right for the family.

      The man in this story is the author of this article. I had no answers for him that day but got his number and stayed in touch.

      He is an amazing and super intelligent individual that will be the first one to tell you how bad he considers himself. He puts all his flaws right up there and let's you decide.

      I called him last week and he told me he has the answers. We talked for an hour and I can honestly say I could not comprehend the concept. But what I can say is he's worth a listen.


      Chaim M.

      Delete
    3. If he is such a nice and loving husband and father, why does his wife want out?

      Has he not found an explanation yet?

      Might it be that, despite loving her, he really never got to know her over all those years?

      Delete
    4. I don't know the individuals involved at all. But I would ask how often is it really best for the family to have the wife and mother as an unwilling participant in the marriage (whether reasonably or otherwise) and resenting being stuck in a marriage she wants to leave?

      Delete
    5. @mike s.

      The article clearly states the woman didn't want to leave. She wanted the husband to leave.

      In order to put it into perspective I will put this into a different context.

      Two partners are running a moderately successful business. In the early days they almost functioned in the same capacity but after 15 years the business has grown and the two partners now function very differently. One partner handles the products coming in and out of the warehouse while the other handles the finances enabeling the purchase and sale of the products.

      One morning the partner running the warehouse says he wants out. The finance partner can't stop him from leaving so he says what do you want to take with you. The response he got was everything, you leave and we will figure something out for you. The finance partner was in shock and so he tells his warehouse partner to go fly a kite. So the warehouse partner has the locks changed. In a very short amount of time the business colapses.

      Women don't ask for a divorce these days. If that's what they were truly asking for they would mostly get it because most men are reasonable. What women actually mean when they ask for divorce is that they want to divorce the man from her, the children, property pretty much everything.

      Now do you get it.

      Delete
  36. Dream on James. The lawyers act unethically and drag cases on for as long as possible as do forensics for their ppockets. your extreme feminist ideology is causing you to become delusional

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I know very ethical family lawyers. I am not really a feminist. I follow the Torah.

      Delete
  37. I am truly sorry for the author. There is no valid hetter for a plaintiff to go to court under the sun unless the defendent refuses to go to bais din. No great rabbi can permit something ossur in the Torah no matter how many times James or well or jeremy stern claim otherwise.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "There is no valid hetter for a plaintiff to go to court under the sun unless the defendant refuses to go to bais din."

      And remind us how many hazmanas Weiss sent to Dodelson before going to court? None.

      Delete
    2. @james

      What if the man refuses to go to beis din because he's allready in civil court?

      What if the wife filed with the civil court first and then sent a Hazmonah?

      What if a wife got a heter arkaos ileagaly, then filed in court then sent a Hazmona?

      What if the Husband had no clue that the wife got a heter arkaos so had no chance to even stop her?

      A Din Torah can not proceed once civil litigation has begun because that puts the Beis Din under the jurisdiction of the civil court.

      This is how ORA gets it done and Meisur is unavoidable.

      They get a corrupt Beis Din to give a woman a heter arkaos. The Beis Din does not inform the husband of the heter. The husband gets served papers and is being civily sued for divorce this puts him under civil court jurisdiction.

      The Bes Din then sends a Hazmona NOT to argue the Heter Arkaos but the actual divorce. But the husband can't go because the civil proceedings have started.

      If the husband signs a Shturer Brurin which is a leagle binding arbitration agreement this is what happens.

      Since the civil proceedings have begun the civil court will put a stay to allow the arbitration to proceed. Once arbitration is completed the court has to ratify it. If the wife doesn't like it she can petition the judge to change it. The judge most likely will. The husband will say since you changed it I won't give you the Get. But its to late the binding arbitration agreement was signed the court can enforce it. Not even the Beis Din can stop the court because the court had prior jurisdiction.

      Delete
  38. James atop kidding us rhat you care about halocho. Weiss got an emergency hetter to see his kid. You have already stated you dont believe in bais din. If you feel Rav Wohlhandler was wrong unfortunately he is in the next world. Remind us how many hazmonahs tamar friedman sent before relocating.weiss offerwd to go to zabla , hich fwinsteins hold of but dodelson chose to litigate.stop crying crocodile tears for a woman who practices paternal alienation. If tou cared about halocho jamws why dont you bother explaibing the BDA s breaches?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am not too fond of the BDA so I see no need to defend it.

      I do believe in BD - in Eretz Yisrael. I have yet to find a respectable BD in America.

      So the rule is you can never go to secular court unless you get a heter BUT that heter can only come from Stan approved rabbanim. That is not a rule anyone can abide. You tolerate exceptions to your rule but only for the people you like. That doesnt make any sense.

      Besides, even if you go to court with an emergency heter, you still have to try to go to BD and send hazmanas. An emergency heter is only for a temporary injunction or to protect rights. You still have to try to go to BD and remove the case. Dodelson did nothing wrong. She went to BD and Weiss did not respond with an acceptable answer. He was willing to go to ZABLA with a Rav who had suffered a stroke and was not well.

      Delete
    2. @James - "Dodelson did nothing wrong" - You're suffering another bout of feminist delusions.

      You and your ORA masters have created feminist goddess delusions in your mind. These feminist goddesses can never commit any wrong, they can only be the victims of vindictive, male chauvinist husbands, and the ORA knights in shining armor are going to rescue them from Torah oppression and male chauvinist oppression.

      Sorry to smash your goddesses, but destroying a family, abducting a child and preventing the father from seeing his child are wrong. Alienating a child from his father is wrong. Engaging ORA goons to harass and humiliate a Jewish father and his family, and destroy their parnassa, is wrong. Filing a full divorce lawsuit in family court is wrong. Dragging a Jewish father and Torah Judaism through the sewer of the secular feminist media is wrong.

      Delete
    3. But if the child is so important to him, why did he insist on cutting child support by more than 50%?

      If the child is so important to him, he should first and foremost give all he could give to his child!

      Delete
    4. james; weiss replied and if the bais din didn't like his answer they should have told him but instead the corrupt BD decided to just ignore what he said, and why do you think when dodelson filed for a divorce she did nothing wrong she never had a hetter for it

      well; he didn't want to pay an astronomical amount of money for a man in kollel to a woman who would do just fine without it and only wants it to ruin him financially as much as possible and even if he never gave a penny his son wouldn't lack anything so why exactly is that not caring for his child??

      Delete
  39. By the way James according to your MO buddies at the BDA one doesnt need a hetter to stop someone running off with ones property. Weiss will claim he was retreving his.

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    1. First, The BDA are not my buddies.
      Second, If sending hazmanas in the USA where there is no BD jurisdiction will cause you irreparable harm, almost everyone agrees that you can go to court to protect yourself. BUT, you must still, at the same time, send hazmanas and try to remove it to BD. Weiss didnt do that and his court filing was not of the type to necessitate bypassing the BD system.

      Delete
    2. weiss didn't need to send hazmanos he was doing all he needed to to work with the bais din she went to and they ignored him

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  40. James you claim you don't know an honest bais din in the US. I dont know an honest court in the US. You claim to know an ethical family lawyer. I challenge you to name one.

    You claim that Rav Gestetner didnt follow halocho because he never spoke to Tamar. Her written showed what she felt. More imoortantly how do you mesarev someone when mo"us olai cant be used to force a Get. Even more egregiously even if you could tamar walkwd out of bais din. I am sorry to break it to you but your position s are not only illogical but seem unethical to me. As I tild you, rav wholhandler is not around so I cant answer for him. I do know weiss offered someone else.

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  41. If you are really serious and in need of a family lawyer, contact that moderator and he will know how to reach me. Otherwise, I am not going to post names of attorneys so you can make things up and ruin their reputation online.

    The shulchan aruch is very clear. There is no exception for diary entries. That is considered hearsay. It is a violation of shulchan aruch any way you slice it and he will pay for it in the next world. (He is already paying for it in this world - he is a total joke and no respsected dayan in eretz yisrael will support him or accept him. Dont believe me? Ask the moderator to go to rav shternbuch and get a written letter of support stating that the Eidah will accept him.)
    There is a reason why you have to meet people. You need to know that the diary was serious. You need to ask why she wrote it or if she meant it. You already admitted that he thinks raglayim ladavar is an exception to the shulchan aruch based on other rishonim. Go look up your comments on the post about the bitul seruv for aharon.
    You claim that going to arkoos is assur but then when i point out that weiss did that (without also going to BD!) you say he got a heter. Well, tamar also spoke to a rav and so do many other women. You say that those rabbanim are not acceptable. So, in your world, the very worst thing you can do is go to secular court EXCEPT in those cases where the guy gets a heter BUT only if the heter comes from one of the few rabbanim you approve of. Rabbanim that nobody else in the world approves of.
    Stan, stop the nonsense. You falsely accused me of not knowing hebrew and when it was shown that the phrase I was referring to was Yiddish, you did not apologize. Clearly, you can not be modeh to the truth.

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  42. the basic assumption of this article is that women are emotionally inferior to men, in a significant way. this assumption is so completely misogynistic and 19th century that i am having trouble believing that anyone still believes it.

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  43. James you stop your nonsense. To the vast majority of your totally false allegations my previous post clearly not only referred to but utterly refuted.

    Which part of this did you not understand? "You claim that Rav Gestetner didn't follow halocho because he never spoke to Tamar. Her written showed what she felt. More importantly how do you mesarev someone when mo"us olai cant be used to force a Get. Even more egregiously even if you could tamar walked out of bais din. I am sorry to break it to you but your position s are not only illogical but seem unethical to me."

    You continue to beat a dead horse in a most unethical way ignoring the basic facts - SHE RAN AWAY FROM BAIS DIN AND HENCE IS NOT ENTITLED TO ANY RELIEF FROM BAIS DIN. Clearly once there is no siruv in the first place because she was lo tzias dina why should he even waste his time speaking to her. If you once again mention Epstein where it is black and white she broke the halocho and not entitled to relief from a bais din you are showing yourself to be completely lacking any objectivity or honesty. Tamar desrted not only her husband but bais din as well.

    Once again regarding Weiss, there could have been halachik improprieties on his part by not getting a hetter bais din and rather that of a single rov. I am not familiar with what rav moshe held and this is really the bottom line - did reb moshe hold it was not necessary to get a hetter bais din because as a great grandson of reb moshe that is what he seems to be holding. there is no doubt that this was an emergency situation - for the record the halachik violations started with gittel by moving out and refusing him proper access to the child. none of this you admit to. So let's start talking about being honest. You are so quick at pointing out Weiss halachik violations but the party who started the violations is gittel as well as her family.

    However regarding Epstein you have already shown that halocho is irrelevant by demanding a get for her even though she is not entitled to it. So stop hypocritically claiming Weiss violated halocho because clearly you have shown together with ORA your soulmates that halocho is at best irrelevant to your positions. You have also unequivocally previously declared that bais din is not acceptable to you so your opinions are full of contradictions and i am not sure if even you understand them. So you have de jure declared that you are against halocho. hence who are you to judge if rav gestetner did violate or didn;t violate halocho?

    As for claiming that Weiss never appointed another rov to represent him in zabla this is another false declaration.

    If rav gestetner is good enough for the families of the Einsteins and Soleveitchiks that is endorsement enough. The Eidah is today focused on its business empire of kashrus and will do nothing to jeopardize either this or their kidushin/ gerushin roles by fighting the rabbanut despite the rabbanut being a joke.

    What I can tell you as fact that regarding soleveitchik rav nissim karelitz backed down and admitted rav gestetner was right and not the bais din of rav nissim. Furthermore they have just worked together against the ms Chaimowitz wedding that was arranged by reb ,mendel and will produce mamzeirim so you are so wrong its not funny.

    get over the fact i accused you of not knowing Hebrew. you have done the same to me. havent lost any sleep about it.

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    Replies
    1. The bittul seruv did not just point out problems with the seruv. It went further than that. It made factual determinations and my problem is with that part of the bittul seruv.

      We both agree that the Epstein case and the Weiss case are different. With respect to Epstein, I think the marriage is clearly over and he should give a Get for his own sake. I dont DEMAND anything and I am not a member of ORA. Nor have I ever participated in their rallies. I just dont think its completely assur.

      Dodelson did not prohibit Weiss from seeing his child. Either way, according to you going to secular court is always assur so even if she did deny access, that doesnt allow him to go to secular court shelo k'din.

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  44. ben the best i can wish naive fools like James and you is to be on the opposite end of a machashefaoh in a Brooklyn supreme court in front of someone like rachel adams to open your eyes to how the system really works. Only then will you be removed from your blindness when you have not only been bankrupted and dispossessed of all your assets but owe hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees and wasted 5 years of the best years of your life in the bowels of this unfair system and your wife shouting aguna when she is really a rodef and entitled to only one thing from bais din al pi halocho. only then will naive hypocrites like you open your eyes to the utter garbage you daily spew.on behalf of these wicked rashantahs

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    Replies
    1. Wow! I cant believe you are actually wishing harm on a fellow blog commentator.

      Stan has called me all kinds of nasty things but I dont think he has ever actually wished me harm.

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  45. Halochah can not be changed we get it. So we need to find a way within the confinement of Halochah to resolve these impasses.

    Assuming for a second that up until the divorce request there was issues (at least as far as the wife is concerned) but trust wasn't one of them. Then creating an environment where the husband distrusts the wife to such an extent that he sees her as a terrorist is quite obviously the wrong way to go.

    These organizations or Rabbanim enabling Arkaos and promoting the distrust course has to be stopped immediately.

    The only way I can see accomplishing the task is to point out their anti halachic activities to the public at large. The Prodfather Epstein is a start but who was behind him. Which Beis Din? Lets start with that.

    ReplyDelete

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