Sunday, December 8, 2013

Rav Chaim Kanievsky prohibits artificial insemination - Rav Eliashiv permitted it

Kikar haShabat   Update -  text below and original letter and translation

ספר חדש מפרסם את דעתו של הגר"ח קנייבסקי בנושא טיפולי פוריות. במכתב המתפרסם לראשונה הוא כותב כי "טיפולי פוריות - תועבה. הבנים שיצאו עלולים להיות פושעים גמורים" ● בניגוד לדעת הגר"ח, חמיו הגרי"ש אלישיב סבור כי בנים הנולדים על-ידי הטיפולים הללו כשרים לבוא בקהל ה'..

"טיפולי פוריות הם תועבה, הבנים שיצאו מזה עלולים להיות רשעים ופושעים גמורים", כך פוסק מרן הגר"ח קנייבסקי, בספר חדש העוסק בטיפולי פוריות והפריות מלאכותיות.
דעת הגר"ח קנייבסקי, כפי שעולה מן הספר, היא שכל טיפולי הפוריות לסוגיהם השונים - אסורים על-פי ההלכה בתכלית האיסור. הגר"ח מתבטא במכתביו השונים כי הטיפולים הללו הם "תועבה", וקובע נחרצות כי "בודאי הבנים שיצאו מזה עלולים להיות רשעים ופושעים וגרועים".
בשנים האחרונות חלה התקדמות משמעותית במגזר החרדי בכל הקשור לטיפולים הללו. כך קמו ארגונים אשר שמו להם למטרה להקל על הזוגות חשוכי הילדים ולפתור את מצוקתם במציאת פתרונות הלכתיים.

[...]

24 comments :

  1. Same machlokes as between Rav Moshe and the Satmar Rebbe. Rav Chaim agrees with the Satmar Rebbe while Rav Eliashev agrees with Rav Moshe.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Another Machloket from my youth, but I had thought that outside of Satmar and related groups R. Moshe's opinion had won out completely. Why does R. Chaim pasken against R. Elyashiv and the bulk of the posekim of the previous two generations? And I don't recall the Satmar Rov every saying that such children were destined to be reshaim, even though he held they were passul b'kahal. What explanation does R. Chaim offer for that?

    ReplyDelete
  3. I was involved in such a shaalo, when I went to Israel and someone wanted to use these techniques for his family. I asked Rav Elyashev zt"l and he said, "You will find a Rov who permits it." Which is what happened. But I went to a major Sefardic posek who told me that the particular program I asked about is wrong and the doctor will substitute his own sperm for the sperm of the husband. Somebody explained Rav Elyashev's position that his mechuton, the father of Reb Chaim Kaniefsky, the Steipler Rov, was absolutely opposed and so he told me I would find another Rov to permit it, to save him the family fight. But I don't know any more than what I wrote here.

    ReplyDelete
  4. isn't this old news? you posted this in may 2010 http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/05/rav-chaim-kanievsky-treating.html

    ReplyDelete
  5. Don,
    I am not sure if the two are the same. Reb Moshe, at least at one time, permitted the wife to use the sperm of a stranger under certain circumstances. This created an uproar. But there are other methods, such as taking the sperm of the husband and treating it. This Rav Elyashev zt"l indicated to me that he was inclined to be lenient. But this had nothing to do with the war with Reb Moshe who permitted the sperm of a stranger. Furthermore, it is highly possible that Reb Moshe wrote this in his sefer but in later years may have become more stringent. I heard this from Rav Avigder Miller. I had a case where a husband refused to speak to a Rov but he would give a GET if that could be avoided. Reb Moshe permitted some arrangement, and when I had the problem, I called up and wanted to check if I had permission to use Reb Moshe's heter. I was told by Reb Moshe's person "just because it is in his sefer so you have to do it?" I almost fainted, and called Rav Avigder Miller, who explained to me that as time went on and people became more frum, Reb Moshe also became stricter in his rulings and possibly, this HETER was no longer practiced. I heard a similar thing from Rabbi Margolin from Ezras Torah, the right hand person of Rav Henkin zt"l. He always pestered Rav Henkin, who paskened a huge among of shaalose, and was the Posek before Reb Moshe in America, to publish his teshuvose, but Rav Henkin refused. Finally, as Reb Henkin became old and weak, he told Rav Margolin that he wants to publish a sefer of teshuvse, but Rav Margolin told him, "Now you can't help with Ezras Torah and I have to do the work, and I can't help with the sefer." Rav Margolin explained to me that Rav Henkin who was a Rov for many years in America before Reb Moshe, lived in a time when Torah was at a low ebb and people could not tolerate too strict of a ruling, so he bent things as much as he could so people could accept it. That is why he did not want to publish anything, because times were changing for the better in his old age. But finally, he decided to publish something appropriate for the new age but alas nobody was available to help him and he was too old and weak. There is a postscript to this. Rav Henkin's grandson was a Rav Herzl, who told me the following story. He moved to Israel and took along all of his grandfather's writings, intending to do something with them. All of them were lost in transit. It is clearly the Hand of Hashem, who knew that Rav Henkin did not want these published.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. First volume of R Henkin's teshuvos was just published last month or so....

      Delete
  6. This isn't the same machlokes as between Rav Moshe and the Satmar Rebbe.

    That dispute involved fertilizing an "eishes ish" with the "zera" of a "nochri". This involves something else.

    Do the rest of the research yourself...

    ReplyDelete
  7. maybe pshat is.....December 6, 2013 at 6:32 AM

    Since there are probably not any real teshuvos from R' Chaim, Shlit"a, we can conjecture another pshat altogether. Perhaps he is not getting into the heart of the machlokes between the previos poskei hador, zichronom kulam lvracha. Perhaps he is merely saying that such a conception lacks kedusha since there was no maaseh bia to sanctify. R' Chaim's(shlita) comments reflect rishas or tzidkas, not mamzeirus or issur v'heter lavo b'khal. Curious for comments in learning from others....

    ReplyDelete
  8. Satmer Rebbe discussed anonymous donors, they were obviously not the husband and possibly not even Jewish.

    All three of those issues don't exist, me thinks there will be a clarification...

    Stay tuned....

    ReplyDelete
  9. Can we see the entire statement, not just an excerpt?

    ReplyDelete
  10. It's been many years, so I'd have to check again. But I believe R. Elya Meir Bloch zt"l has a teshuva on this topic published in one the "Shiurei Raboseinu" where he classifies children born from AI as having the status of mamzeirim (derabanan?)

    Additionally, I would humbly submit, that RCK's assertion regarding the potential 'character' of these children is quite understandable to those familiar with the sugya (and hashkafos) of siman ReishMem. I'm not sure R. Elyashiv zt"l would disagree on that note.

    These are tough dilemas and I'm certainly not from the great ones that is capable of rendering judgements. I just want to come and learn.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yitz,
      In the previous generation a talmid chochom told me the following. True, we find that some people have a tendency towards chutpsah, etc., but today is this a rarity in everyone else? Another thing. We find a Mishneh that says, "A mamzer talmid Chochom is higher than a Cohen Gadol am hoorets." Why don't we define the issue by who has the best character, and automatically choose the Cohen? Obviously, there are people from the purest roots who are bad and have bad character, and those who are mamzerim who are not bad. Eli HaCohen was the leader of the generation before Shmuel HaNovi, but his son was involved with preying on women who came to the Beis HaMikdash.
      A senior Rov I discussed the issue of therapy for sterility told me that we are dealing with a situation that can lead to divorce. A woman who cannot have children is in such a situation, so if anyone wants to talk about bad character traits, we have to talk also about a destroyed wife and a destroyed marriage. This is not a simple issue. A problem of a forced GET can lead to making generations of mamzerim, so Rabbeinu Tam cautions us not to look for leniency. But sterility solutions involving only the husband are not such candidates to ruin the child, even if somebody would feel that way, especially since there are great KULOSE and leniencies with doubt if a child is a mamzer.

      Delete
  11. First,
    I dont think you can rely on these reports. Rav Chaim is very terse in his words and sometimes people extrapolate from his few words a bit too much.
    Second,
    On issues such as these, the only halachic positions which matter are the ones accompanied by a teshuva - a reasoning - that demonstrates the logic behind the conclusion. Simply stating that Rav Chaim said assur does not make it an opinion owrthy of evaluation. We need to know why and what assumptions he is making.
    Third,
    I am not entirely convinced that Rav Chaim is completely aware of what the procedure entails. His knowledge of science is not as proficient as his knowledge of other subjects.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Actually, I find it difficult to understand why anyone would permit using a donor other than the husband of the wife.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Rav Moshe bases his tshuvah on the fact that both the issur and status of mamzeirut relate to the prohibited physical act between man and woman, not the movement of semen per se. Which he shows both from the fact that we count as an issur erva both "shelo k'darka" and acts without emmission of semen and from the gemara's reference to "ambati". (I think it is toward the end of Chagiga)

      For the ruling that the child is not a mamzer, he cites the Ba"ch and Ta"z based on Rabbeinu Peretz and Beis Shmuel. All fundamentally stemming from the midrash about ben Sira.

      Delete
    2. Yes, I haven#t seen the teshuva, but I knew it was based on the Ben Sira story. It is very lenient postion - even for a non haredi such as myself.

      Delete
  13. What's the issur here? The children that result will be complete sinners? Who isn't a complete sinner these days?

    ReplyDelete
  14. And how does this proclamation with no sources or reasoning enhance Klal Yisroel's view of Gedolim?
    Might it not be better to prevent publicization of these things? After all, no one is going to rely on a Teshuva in a sefer to either permit or assur. Any sane Jew would ask his Rov. His Rov may bump the shaalo up to a Gadol - but it's still a shaalo for the individual.

    ReplyDelete
  15. All of a sudden you are poskining shayles with Rav Kanievsky!

    What did he posken about Avramie withholding a get to extort money from Gitel?

    What did he posken when you asked him if almost going to binding arbitration is the same as appearing at Beis Din?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Rav Chaim paskened the Dodelson pressure on Weiss will make it a Get Me'usa?

      Delete
  16. What is the view of the newly published gevuras eliyohu?

    ReplyDelete
  17. לאמיתה של דברDecember 8, 2013 at 1:51 AM

    The sefer is called מעלת היוחסין it contains a very clearly written letter by Rav Chaim Kanievsky delineating his position that all children are בני ט' מידות...

    It was published 3 years ago.

    ReplyDelete
  18. since when is reb Chaim a halachik posek ? he never was,

    ReplyDelete
  19. I find the "quote" from RCK quite interesting in light of the fact that after asking me to describe to him the process of IVF, a choshuve rosh yeshiva went to RCK to ask if it was permitted for a couple to marry if they would have to use IVF (presumably due to some factor like a genetic disease, which could be selected out through IVF). I don't know what RCK told him, but I do know the couple went ahead with the shidduch. RCK also gave me a brocha when I went to him and he was told (through intermediaries) that I was going to go through with IVF. I think the bottom line is, as has been mentioned above, ask your own rov and your own shailas. These things aren't worth much more than the paper they're printed on.

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.