Igros Moshe(E.H. 4:60): Concerning the issue of a young man who is not ready to get married and has no interest in getting married and he is interested in having social dates with young women who also are not ready to get married and have no interest in getting married. They say that since they are careful to avoid the prohibition of yichud (seclusion) there is no prohibition in dating. Even though they know that this is not nice but they say they are not interested in issues of piety and extra measures of modesty and they don’t want to listen to lectures of mussar and rebuke. However they say that they will stop if they hear from me that this is prohibited according to the halacha. Therefore I am forced to respond immediately because this applies to a current activity… There is also a severe prohibition from the Torah in close friendships between a young man and woman. That is even if they avoid hugging and kissing as well as touching and yichud. The problem is that he talks with her for extended times in expressing love and he gets pleasure from this and stares at her. Even according to the Ramban who disagrees with the Rambam and holds this is only a rabbinic prohibition nevertheless agrees that this is a severe prohibition since it has an asmachta from a verse and that it is punished with rabbinic flogging. It is clear that dating is done because of love of women and not because of ordinary friendship since he clearly prefers being with a woman then with male friends. Why is he interested in this woman when it doesn’t give him greater respect or a good name? It is obviously because of love of a woman because she is a woman. In addition even though she is unmarried, she is a nidah which is prohibited with the punishment of kares…
Let's say the guy and girl have lots of friends from both genders. Let's say they attend co-ed high school. Is Rav Moshe saying that a guy and a girl who observe hichos yichud and are careful not to touch each other, not be friends? Would that case also be such that "It is obviously because of love of a woman because she is a woman"?
ReplyDeleteYou might say that he is not addressing the case of a guy talking with a girl and acting identically to when he is socializing with a guy.
ReplyDeleteHe notes the obvious that guys typically don't act the same way when they have dates with girls.
Yes. Thats what he is saying. I dont think he would approve of coed classes. Welcome to reality
ReplyDeleteAgree with observer.
ReplyDeleteWhat Rav Moshe doesn't say, but is surely thinking, is that such relationships almost always lead to yichud, touching, etc. At best, it will lead to conversations about inappropriate topics.
This reminds me of someone I was talking to a couple of years ago who discovered the difficult way that there's really no such thing as "harmless negiah."
Dating, per se, is indeed a 'slippery slope' as R' Moshe correctly say.
ReplyDeleteThat said, the frum olam would benefit great greatly from some kind of approved socialization between boys and girls.
Increased interest is both natural and necessary for the healthy development of families and individuals. There should be a way to express that.
Unfortunately, too many people believe 'interest' means 'availability'- and that is simply not the case.
Dating increases the chances for problem, but appropriate interactions and social interaction and socialization might go a long way in creating both better shiduchim and down the road, happier marriages.
Observer,
ReplyDeleteI'm sure he wouldn't approve of coed classes but this Psak Halacha is about "platonic" relationships. Its about teenagers or even those in their lower 20's who aren't interested in marriage yet just dating a girl having a BF GF relationship without the yichud and touching and He is saying it is still asur.
Rav Moshe is not talking specifically about dates. His words are Kishrei Reius, friendship. That is more inclusive than you make it. In addition, your theory that Rav Moshe does not prohibit when the boy acts identically as he would with another boy is refuted by Rav Moshe's words: "Why is he interested in this woman when it doesn’t give him greater respect or a good name? It is obviously because of love of a woman because she is a woman."
ReplyDeleteI think this very strict stance has a dangerous flipside: people rejecting potential marriage partners too quickly and applying quite superficial criteria when selecting them.
ReplyDeleteIt takes time to get to know a person and to decide whether he/she is a fit marriage partner or not.
If "no social dating allowed" is always lurking in the background, this might destroy the marriage prospects of
- persons who are not so attractive at first sight
- persons who need time
-persons who do not decide according to their first gut feeling
-persons who feel pressured by the fact that dating "is only for serious business"
Because it is a lot easier to find reasons to reject a person than to find a reason to accept.
Growing: Rav Moshe specifically says that socializing between the sexes is strictly prohibited according to Jewish law.
ReplyDeleteIN Avot D'Rabbi Nathan, we are told that Adam (or Eve) added the restriction of touching the Tree of daat/ forbidden fruit.
ReplyDeleteHence, the serpent pushed her on the tree, and said see, nothign happened if you touch it , so nothing will happen if you eat.
Isn't this the risk of layer upon layer of restrictions. People will end up perverted like Tropper, or homosexual, like the Geula mikve and other cases too many to mention.
We can't speak for Rav Moshe zt"l becuause he is no longer with us, but if someone explained to a gadol that co-ed schools exist, like it or not, and there are parents who send their kids there, and then asked if a student was in such a class all his life is he or she allowed to be friendly with someone from the opposite gender, and it is it an issur chamur, they might get an answer that is lenient.
ReplyDeleteOR, rather, they will get an answer straight out of the Igros Moshe or any number of other posking that it is assur min HaTorah.
ReplyDeleteSimple
ReplyDeleteThey are interested in marriage.
Besides, the Torah says לֹא-טוֹב הֱיוֹת הָאָדָם לְבַדּוֹ;
Not that hareidi rabbis are interested in the Torah.
Apikorus
DeleteA Greek word, for people like you who deny the Torah
DeleteIs it a transgression of the Torah to be human?
ReplyDeleteIt's part of the yeshiva system to dehumanize people.
The Torah itself is about Adam , humanity
KA is an idiot. These comments have nothing to do with the teshuva
ReplyDeleteseems like someone is imitating the real Garnel..
DeleteAnd he can't spell.
DeleteUhhh which word exactly is misspelled?
DeleteOh Garnel instead of Garniel. That was intentional
DeleteSo stalker admits being the idiot rodef here
Deleteyou mean being gay is given a nod and wink in yeshivas as long as they don't get to friendly with girls...
ReplyDeleteBut then what do you get? The boy finally meets the girl and has no idea how to interact with her as an equal because the only women he's ever spoken to are his mother and his sisters. And she has no idea how to speak to him for the same reason. And then you wonder why the marriage turns miserable.
DeleteYet Chassidim are happier, have more children and better parnossa and a much lower divorce rate. So who is the dummy here? KA and GI. Oh wait now I understand! GI is gastrointestinal. So you are a GI DOCTOR. Got it. From Canada which has produced so many gedolim and geniuses. Sure.
DeleteSure, we need a stalker who changes name every day to tell us the facts, thank you stalker.
DeleteAny tips on the horse race?
As usual thr scoffer apikorus dismisses facts with stupid humor. Instead of disputing the facts.
DeleteThe Chasidim are happy because, on an emotional level, they never have to grow up. They remain adolescent boys who just want to hang out with other boys because girls are yucky. Except once a month when that yucky girl has to accommodate their urges.
DeleteBilaam or balak speaks about happy people. But chassidim started because they were not happy with how things were. meanwhile litvish were opposed to happiness, and mussar started to deal with behaviour but became a form of self flagellation.
DeleteThe early Gra followers were called perushim.
All that said which chassidim are happiest? And by what measure?
Why are chassidim adopting non Jewish behaviours? Gur are banning marital relations,
Plus the shidduch system is broken. It may work for rich and learners, but poor people are not served by it
And yeshivas have a gay problem, except they don't want to admit it. even rabbis continue their menuvalim behaviour.
DeleteGateshead is one of the menuval centres, and despite this and their nonsense aveiros, they claim to be extra frum.
Gur doesn't ban anything. It limits it in proper compliance with the explicit Gemora. What idiots you are. Don't even know shas.
DeleteYes Chassidim are happier.
The Chasidim are happy because, on an emotional level they have to grow up and do grow up. They learn a couple of years in Kollel and then by and large go to work. They learn halacha lemaaseh instead of lomdish.
DeleteThe proof is in the pudding. Their kids are happier too. עיין שו"ת דור רביעי ח"א תשובה ל"ז
Steipler Gaon disagrees with such extreme limitations.
DeleteBut you are apparently saying chassidim are happier than lomdishers, so according to your own measure, if you have one, you become a a scoffing apikorus
Steipler, while a gadol, wasn't chassidish and his opinion was not and isn't binding on Chassidim. But you knew that and prefer to throw up smoke instead of admitting the befeirishe Gemora
DeleteNeither is Rav Moshe, whose vort sparked this discussion.
DeleteBut are you only paskening from a Gemara, when there are other halachic sources?
There are different guidance notes depending on your profession. Are you all Carmel jockeys or leather tanners?
Camel ..
DeleteDiamond dealers and perfume merchants
DeleteThat's the way to live
DeleteYes. Chassidish and happy, healthy wealthy and wise. Just like Bubby bentched us. Try it. You might like it.
DeleteVery good
Deletehttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://jeremy-brown-vpk4.squarespace.com/s/Kedushah_-_The_Abstinence_of_Married_Men_in_Gur__Slonim_and_Toldos_Ahron-libre.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj4uvShxvmMAxW1VkEAHTFNIQQQFnoECEoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0mAlNb-Gd2mzXPgSFBuOre
ReplyDeleteThis article focuses on maybe 7% of Chassidim. Pretty broad brush. They can all opt out and vote with their feet if they want. People switch chassidus all the time. Over 90% don't practice such ascetisicm
DeleteVery good. So you agree with me now.
DeleteOn the verse in Bereishit 2, 16
מִכֹּל
עֵץ-הַגָּן, אָכֹל תֹּאכֵל. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying: 'Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat;
יז וּמֵעֵץ, הַדַּעַת טוֹב וָרָע--לֹא תֹאכַל,
The Meshech chochmah says it's a positive mitzvah to eat from every tree in the garden, and in fact these are therapeutic to help avoid eating from the forbidden tree.
That concurs with my initial statement when I asked if we are allowed to be human.
Similarly the Yerushalmi says we will have to give account for any pleasure we didn't taste.