Thursday, November 20, 2008

Rabbi Tropper & Prague - what happened?


There was a recent conference of European rabbis in Prague. The focus of the conference was officially on two things - remembrance of the Holocaust and Kiruv. But there was also a discussion of conversion Rabbi Tropper had been invited to speak - however the strong negative reaction to his speech resulted in his leaving in the middle of his drasha. Ostensibly Rabbi Tropper was interested in investing some of EJF's money in European kiruv efforts. Why would anyone be upset about a wealthy benefactor?

Some of what I am saying is conjecture but it is built upon solid facts. The facts are not in dispute - but my interpretation might be. This is also not a tale about the good guys vs. the bad guys. Everyone involved wears a black hat and dark suit.

If you will remember back a few years there was a turning point that will probably be remembered in history books as the Slifkin affair or by others as the Making of a Gadol affair. R' Slifkin raised questions from Science against our Mesorah and presented answers. He dealt with such things as the age of the universe. His approach and explanations were at one time very welcome in the world of kiruv. But then they migrated into the mainstream. Gedolim such as Rav Moshe Sternbuch and Rav Moshe Shapiro were disturbed by the familiarity with which R' Slifkin spoke about our sages and their supposed fallibility in knowledge. Similarly there were many gedolim who were outraged about Rav Nosson Kaminetsky's stories about gedolim which conveyed their human foibles. The awesome barrier which separated us from the gedolim was breached. The enemy was no longer outside but were people honored as insiders. Both of these rabbis were viciously slandered. [Rav Nosson Kaminetsky asked me to clarify that the rabbis who are against R' Slifkin are not necessarily against him. In particular he has a very close relationship with Rav Sternbuch who greatly appreciates his book - while saying that there are clearly changes that need to be made]

One of the most dedicated crusaders against R' Slifkin was Rabbi Tropper. He convinced Rav Dovid Feinstein and others that R' Slifkin's approach was dangerous by describing two of his students who had gone off the derech because of their reading of his books. While the students in fact did not go off the derech because of R' Slifkin - they served their purpose. Rabbi Tropper is a zealot. A man driven by a vision of the way things should be, must be. A man who is driven by a pure and simple understanding of Truth - and his indispensable role in achieving it.

Let's go forward in time to last year's EJF conference in Washington D.C. It was massively publicized with cover photos and large articles describing in detail who was there as well as the speeches. The conference will go down in history for the speech given that said that whoever believes that the world is more than 6000 years old - can not be a dayan for geirus. A rabbi who wore colored shirts was not to participate in a beis din for conversion. Here was a major weapon to be wielded against those who didn't share Rabbi Tropper's vision of Yiddisheit - i.e. the Modern Orthodox as well as many American Chareidim. The point of the conference was geirus and the universal standardization according to the standards of Rabbi Tropper. Rabbi Tropper had and has a lot of money due to his backing by billionaire Tom Kaplan. Many of the participants in fact went primarily to receive a significant amount of money from R' Tropper. Rabbi Tropper drew a line in the sand and said, "If you want to participate in my universal conversion program - you must accept my beliefs in these matters." Ignored or not noticed was Rabbi Tropper's advocacy of proselytization for intermarried couples and their non-Jewish kids. This was strongly denounced by Rav Moshe Sternbuch as well as all the other members of the Bedatz. But I digress.

Last year there was also the surrender of the RCA - the Modern Orthodox American Rabbis to the Chief rabbinate or to Rav Eliashiv's standards of geirus. Something which even many Modern Orthodox rabbis realized was necessary. None the less it represented the serious submission of a significant number of rabbis to a handful of Israeli authorities who don't share the same vision of Yiddishkeit or the world.

It is now November 2008. So now we have Rabbi Tropper - a world famous rabbi with a lot of money. A lot less power as the result of the strong criticism of the Bedatz against his approach - but still a force to be reckoned with.

He is invited to speak in Prague. He comes with the resources, desire and need to invest money in kiruv [?] in Europe. All are waiting anxiously to hear what he wants to do and how. But instead of a reasoned discussion of the issues and the various views and what he would like to do and what he would like to learn from them - he starts lecturing them. He lectures them about their shortcomings and failures.

But most of all he attacks the Modern Orthodox rabbis - those who don't share his vision of Yiddishkeit. He attacks all those who don't accept his standards of geirus. There were many people who were greatly embarrassed by his rudeness and insensitivity. He is perceived as the proverbial bull in a china shop. There are many who are furious. He comes not to work together with the Europeans rabbis but rather to dictate to them. He is lecturing them as the old school master to a bunch of kids who just got caught violating the rules.

He becomes aware of their anger at his comments. He defends himself - but it is too late. He loses it and walks out of the angry assembly in the middle of his presentation in great irritation. There is even a petition circulated to ban his future attendance of the meetings. He came to conquer and command and instead he was rejected.

A parallel event was happening with Chief Rabbi Amar who similarly was deliberately held at arm's length by the European rabbis. They now see their salvation from within - and resent the condescension of outsiders who have no understanding of Europe and what impact Israeli chareidi rules have on this foreign place.

25 comments :

  1. Rabbi Eidensohn,

    Please help me understand your position, with some clarifications:

    Point 1:
    You support Rav Moshe Sternbuch approach to geirus.

    You support R' Slifkin's right to make his case vis-a-vis Torah & Science -- and thus by definition you disagree with Rav Moshe Sternbuch's position regarding the Slifkin issue??

    Point 2:
    You oppose EJF's approach to geirus, yet are open to the Israeli Rabbinite and/or the RCA/MO approach to geirus?

    To my eyes, both the EJF and the Rabbinite/RCA/MO approach to geirus is rather lacking. Please explain.

    Thank You

    ReplyDelete
  2. Thank you for all the background info re the EJJ convention.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Joseph said...

    Rabbi Eidensohn,

    Please help me understand your position, with some clarifications:
    ========================
    1) Rav Sternbuch holds that the world is less than 6000 years old. He told me that the alternative is kefira. However since there are many sources in chazal and rishonim which support the alterantive - the holder of such views is not a kofer. His view is that since the majority of contemporary gedolim hold the view that the world is less than 6000 years old the alternative is no longer acceptable.
    I spoke with both Rav Yisroel Belsky and Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky who both said that a person can still believe the world is more than 6000 years old.
    In sum, I don't view R' Slifkin as a kofer nor does Rav Sternbuch. I have not kept up with R' Slifkin's views on other matters and I don't think Rav Sternbuch has either.

    2) I am not sure what you mean by "lacking". Perhaps you would want to expand on this.
    The opposition to EJF was the result of their view on proselytizing intermarried couples. R' Tropper still has not produced a justification for his activities - despite repeated requests.
    The fundamental concern of all those mentioned is the critical necessity for full acceptance of mitzvos. The details as to how to measure sincerity, the degree to which national issues bias the decision in case of sofek, and other details is too complex to make a absolute statement. The lenient view as expressed by R' Angel or the "close your eyes and don't look because we need to convert these people" approach of R' Druckman are not acceptable.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I was surprised when I read on your blog that in Beitar, neighbors are persecuted if they do not dress to fit the mold. But I could believe it.
    And I read R' Eisenstein article in which he had the line "we thought they were orthodox - it turned out they were modern". I also knew that r' Eisenstein said that one who believes in a world older than 6000 years is unfir to be a conversion dayan.
    But is it really the emes that someone with credentials said that one who wears colored shirts is unqualified to be a dayan?
    If R' Moshe Feinstein put on a blue shirt he would be unqualified? Yosef hatzaddik wore stripes, KIng David wore purple, and Aharon Hakohen wore blue......

    ReplyDelete
  5. Thank you for bringing to light the fact that rabbi tropper (and rabbi leib pinter) was behind the slifkin affair and the book banning.

    While more information about rabbi tropper is available elsewhere I would like to bring up another case involving rabbi tropper.

    This is the tragic case of gideon busch, a promising medical student of whom rabbi tropper convince to drop out of medical school and to study in his yeshiva. After some time he was expelled from the yeshive, developed some medical problems. He ended up getting shot to death by the NYPD.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Joseph has proven through his questions (and answered by R.E.) that Rav Eidensohn is a talmid chochom belonging to the 'quickly disappearing' race of thinking individuals.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Rabbi Eidensohn,

    Thanks for the response. 1) In your post you wrote that the "Gedolim such as Rav Moshe Sternbuch and Rav Moshe Shapiro were disturbed by the familiarity with which R' Slifkin spoke about our sages and their supposed fallibility in knowledge." Do you concur with Rav Moshe Sternbuch in being disturbed with R' Slifkin on this matter? (You also wrote "The enemy was no longer outside but were people honored as insiders. Both of these rabbis were viciously slandered." Are you conveying that your feelings are that Rav Moshe Sternbuch went too far vis-a-vis his response to Slifkin? Otherwise, what was your point in those 2 sentances?)

    2) Lacking, as in the Rabbinite (notably R' Druckman) has been strongly taken to task for their very loose conversion standards (to put it mildly.) I understand that you strongly oppose the R' Druckman/Rabbinite loose approach to geirus. (I thought the RCA/MO position concurred with R' Druckman, and they made statements to the effect that they support R' Druckman. Perhaps I am mistaken on this?)

    ReplyDelete
  8. Rabbi Eidensohn


    I think the comment about Gideon Busch Z’L is more appropriate to be on your post regarding various keiruv approaches but I can understand why the commenter chose to put it here.

    She probably wanted to call attention to Tropper all-or-nothing approach to keiruv, an approach which requires total transformation, cutting off any non-orthodox connections (which includes family), shunning secular studies and arguing that you cannot be a talmid chochom and having a college degree in the some time...

    An approach which in cases of married couples when the couple is not on the same page, the more observant spouse is encouraged to divorce the less observant spouse instead of finding some middle ground and waiting for him or her to catch up.

    Many keiruv organizations (which the noted exception of Chabad) do not realize that for some people adopting stringent lifestyle, dropping out of college, adopting penguin dress would not be beneficial. Making them swallow more than they can chew would end up with disastrous results. Some of the worst enemies of Orthodoxy are former BTs.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Joseph said...

    Rabbi Eidensohn,

    Thanks for the response. 1) In your post you wrote that the "Gedolim such as Rav Moshe Sternbuch and Rav Moshe Shapiro were disturbed by the familiarity with which R' Slifkin spoke about our sages and their supposed fallibility in knowledge." Do you concur with Rav Moshe Sternbuch in being disturbed with R' Slifkin on this matter?
    ============
    I am not sure what relevance my opinion is on these matters. My position is similar to Rav Zev Leff's views. While I don't agree with R' Slifkin in various issues, I don't think the matter was handled very well.


    (You also wrote "The enemy was no longer outside but were people honored as insiders. Both of these rabbis were viciously slandered." Are you conveying that your feelings are that Rav Moshe Sternbuch went too far vis-a-vis his response to Slifkin? Otherwise, what was your point in those 2 sentances?)
    ===========
    Rav Sternbuch was not involved in the banning and attacks on R' Slifkin. Contrary to other rabbis, he invited R' Slifkin to discuss the matter with him. However this was after the banning and the slander. R' Slifkin was advised by his rabbonim that as the damage had already been done there was no purpose in discussing the matter since there was a fundamental difference in hashkofa. R' Slifkin has his authorities and doesn't need Rav Sternbuch's approval. After the banning Rav Sternbuch wrote a letter criticizing R' Slifkin and his views which he asked me to translate and distribute. In short if all the rabbis had reacted as Rav Sternbuch did - there would have been some agreement made which would have resulted in some modification of R' Slifkin's writings but no cherem. in short I am not saying that Rav Sternbuch slandered R' Slifkin as a result of his upset.

    2) Lacking, as in the Rabbinite (notably R' Druckman) has been strongly taken to task for their very loose conversion standards (to put it mildly.) I understand that you strongly oppose the R' Druckman/Rabbinite loose approach to geirus. (I thought the RCA/MO position concurred with R' Druckman, and they made statements to the effect that they support R' Druckman. Perhaps I am mistaken on this?)
    ========
    The RCA issued a letter of support for R' Druckman. It was not based on halachic issues but rather the insenstive way R' Druckman was treated.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Rabbi Eidensohn,

    Thanks again. You mentioned that Rav Sternbuch stated that the alternative (to less than 6,000 years) is kefira. You then stated the holder of such views is not a kofer (since there are sources in chazal.) Is that your analysis (that the holder of views greater than 6,000 years is not a kofer) or Rav Sternbuch's? And (in either case) how can someone who preaches kefira not be a kofer? (Granted there are sources in chazal. Nevertheless, currently it is either kefira/kofer, or it is not. How do you split between preaching kefira and being a kofer?)

    Regarding the Slifkin affair, you wrote that you don't think the matter was handled very well, you indicate the ban was wrong, and you refer to the attacks on R' Slifkin as slander. You place the blame for this, in large part, on Rabbi Tropper. Yet wouldn't you (c'v) be more accurate in finding "fault" (for lack of a better description) for the ban and slander on the Gedolim who issued the ban (and the accompanying explanation for the ban.) Sure, you can say they were misled, but they were (relatively) numerous Gedolim involved. Were all misled? Can so many Gedolim (in your opinion) all be misled? And if that is in fact the case, would you not agree that these Gedolim would have recognized they were misled (as you have), stated as such and retracted any action they took based upon being misled? (They are Gedolim, and surely do not stand upon their own honor.) Lacking a retraction, is it not logical to conclude that the Gedolim stand by their action?

    And finally, are you satisfied with the RCA approach to geirus (in theory and practice)?

    ReplyDelete
  11. In my original post - since revised - I had mentioned that R' Tropper criticized the association with Reform and Conservative. The information I received regarding the conference mentioned Neologues - which I mistakenly assumed as referring to Reform and Conservative.
    Furthermore R' Tropper did not refer to them - but rather attacked the Modern Orthodox - which I assumed also applied to associations with the Neologues - but he didn't mentioned them.

    Neologue's are not Conservative but they are not fully Orthodox either. Their exact beliefs and status seems to be a bit confusing. They were the people who took the first step away from Orthodoxy by introducing the organs into shuls - played by non-Jews on Shabbos and giving sermons in the vernacular and doing away with the mechitza. They apparently, however, did not change the faith in such things as Torah from Heaven as the Reform and Conservative did. During the Communist era they were the only show in town and thus many people were affiliated with them who would be considered Orthodox. Their semicha however is only recognized by the Conservative movement and not the Orthodox.
    Rabbi Tropper did not mention them - contrary to what I had originally said. Rather the issue came up at the conference in Prague regarding the status of geirim of the Neologues - since they weren't Orthdox but neither were they Conservative and Reform

    ReplyDelete
  12. The Neologues I believe originated (in the late 1800's) and primarily exist only in Hungary. They were at one time a serious force against Orthodoxy, but I do not much is left of them. (Perhaps I am mistaken.)

    ReplyDelete
  13. Joseph said...

    Rabbi Eidensohn,

    Thanks again. You mentioned that Rav Sternbuch stated that the alternative (to less than 6,000 years) is kefira. You then stated the holder of such views is not a kofer (since there are sources in chazal.) Is that your analysis (that the holder of views greater than 6,000 years is not a kofer) or Rav Sternbuch's? And (in either case) how can someone who preaches kefira not be a kofer? (Granted there are sources in chazal. Nevertheless, currently it is either kefira/kofer, or it is not. How do you split between preaching kefira and being a kofer?)
    ===============
    This is the classic split between the Rambam and the Raavad which is summarized by Reb Chaim as the issue of the nebach apikorus. Rav Sternbuch told me that he agrees with the view of the Ravad that an inadvertent exponent of kefira - who is not rebelling against the system is not himself considered a kofer. Rav Sternbuch said that since R' Slikin has genuine sources to rely on he is not an apikorus. He asserts that now that the majority of gedolim don't accept a world older than 6000 years old that makes the view to now be kefira.
    If you want more detail look in my sefer Daas Torah page 88-91.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Joseph wrote:
    Regarding the Slifkin affair, you wrote that you don't think the matter was handled very well, you indicate the ban was wrong, and you refer to the attacks on R' Slifkin as slander. You place the blame for this, in large part, on Rabbi Tropper.
    ============
    The above is not accurate. I wrote
    "One of the most dedicated crusaders against R' Slifkin was Rabbi Tropper." The gedolim who signed the ban were responsible for their actions. Some of them were fully aware of what they were doing and others just went along with the others. Whether they regret their actions - it doesn't necessarily follow that their failure to retract shows anything.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Josefph wrote:
    And finally, are you satisfied with the RCA approach to geirus (in theory and practice)?
    ========================
    Sorry but it is too general a question. If they adhere to what they say they are doing I would assume that it is fine. I have no knowledge of whether they actually adhere to their stated guidelines. Or whether most adhere to the guidelines or only whether they adhere most of the time.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Rabbi Eidensohn,

    Thanks once more. Who slandered R' Slifkin (that you refer too)?

    You say that "One of the most dedicated crusaders against R' Slifkin was Rabbi Tropper." "Crusade" is used pejoratively, so what fault do you place on Rabbi Tropper in this matter? Is it not apparent that the Gedolim (who signed) agree with Rabbi Tropper (in this matter)?

    If a Godol errs (due to having been misled or otherwise) in a manner that causes another Yid to suffer, does it not follow the Godol will correct (i.e. retract) their error? (And thus the lack of such action, indicates me to me a lack of regret or belief that they erred.)

    Do you take the position that the signers erred in issuing the ban?

    And finally, if someone (say the EJF) proselytizes an intermarried spouse who then converts, is that individual then Jewish? Are R' Druckman's mass conversions effective?

    ReplyDelete
  17. Joseph said...
    Your questions regarding gedolim are solid ones and which would require too much time to discuss intelligently. Suffice it to say that when Making of a Gadol was banned and signs plastered all over Jerusalem announcing the ban - Rav Sternbuch said it was permissible to rip down the posters since the banners had not followed halacha.
    Regarding those who convert after being proselytized - the halacha is that as long as they are viewed as sincere by the beis din they are kosher converts. Just as those who decided to be converted for the sake of marriage or other ulterior motivation.
    שולחן ערוך יורה דעה (רסח:יב)
    כשיבא הגר להתגייר, בודקים אחריו שמא בגלל ממון שיטול או בשביל שררה שיזכה לה או מפני הפחד בא ליכנס לדת. ואם איש הוא, בודקין אחריו שמא עיניו נתן באשה יהודית. ואם אשה היא, בודקין אחריה שמא עיניה נתנה בבחורי ישראל, ואם לא נמצאת להם עילה מודיעים להם כובד עול התורה וטורח שיש בעשייתה על עמי הארצות, כדי שיפרשו. אם קיבלו ולא פירשו, וראו אותם שחזרו מאהבה, מקבלים אותם. ואם לא בדקו אחריו, או שלא הודיעוהו שכר המצות ועונשן, ומל וטבל בפני ג' הדיוטות, ה"ז גר אפי' נודע שבשביל דבר הוא מתגייר, הואיל ומל וטבל יצא מכלל העובדי כוכבים, וחוששים לו עד שתתברר צדקתו; ואפילו חזר ועבד עבודת כוכבים, הרי הוא כישראל מומר שקדושיו קדושין. (ישראל מומר שעשה תשובה, א"צ לטבול; רק מדרבנן יש לו לטבול ולקבל עליו דברי חבירות בפני ג') (נ"י פ' החולץ).

    ReplyDelete
  18. Rabbi Eidensohn,

    Once again I truly appreciate your responses. Perhaps to conclude, is there anywhere I could have my points above regarding the Gedolim (generically or especially how it relates vis-a-vis the Slifkin Affair) addressed (in print/online or otherwise)?

    So we accept the premise (after the fact) that it was possible an individual converted for an ulterior motive, and yet was sincere at the same time (and thus indeed Jewish.) But what if it is alleged (later) that the "convert" was insincere (in intending to keep the 613 and everything), how is that allegation then addressed (and by whom)? When "the halacha is that as long as they are viewed as sincere by the beis din they are kosher converts", are you referring to the original beis din issuing the conversion (and thus logically no future beis din could declare otherwise -- since by definition the issuing beis din "viewed as sincere" the conversion)?

    And should every Yid thereafter treat such a convert (i.e. allegedly insincere/proselytized/ulterior motivation) as they would another convert whose geirus was done 100% appropiately (i.e. if someone would marry the latter convert, they should not refrain from doing so with the former)?

    ReplyDelete
  19. Joseph said...

    Rabbi Eidensohn,

    Once again I truly appreciate your responses. Perhaps to conclude, is there anywhere I could have my points above regarding the Gedolim (generically or especially how it relates vis-a-vis the Slifkin Affair) addressed (in print/online or otherwise)?
    ===============
    Don't know but it would an interesting Ph.D. dissertation

    So we accept the premise (after the fact) that it was possible an individual converted for an ulterior motive, and yet was sincere at the same time (and thus indeed Jewish.) But what if it is alleged (later) that the "convert" was insincere (in intending to keep the 613 and everything), how is that allegation then addressed (and by whom)? When "the halacha is that as long as they are viewed as sincere by the beis din they are kosher converts", are you referring to the original beis din issuing the conversion (and thus logically no future beis din could declare otherwise -- since by definition the issuing beis din "viewed as sincere" the conversion)?
    ===============
    There are two issues - the one you are asking about and the second is what is the success rate. The best discussion I have found is Prof. Finklestein's massive discussion of geirus - published by Bar Ilan in both Hebrew and English.
    The second point is that even with all the evauation and second guessing most of these converts are not successful. Rav Moshe Feinstein stayed away from conversions as did Rav Chaim Ozer. Rambam says simply

    (Hilchos Issurei Bi’ah 13:17): A convert who was not careful examined concerning his motivation or was not instructed concerning the commandments and punishments for sin - and yet nevertheless was circumcised and immersed himself in a mikveh before 3 Jews - is still a valid convert. Even if it is known that he convert for ulterior motives, but since he has been circumcised and gone to mikveh he has left the status of non-Jew. Nevertheless we are suspicious of him until it is ascertained that he is righteous. Moreover even if he returns back to idolatry he is still considered a Jew who has sinned who marriage is still valid and it is still a mitzva to return his lost objects since he has immersed in the mikveh he has become a Jew. Therefore Shimshon and Shlomo kept their wives even though it was revealed that they were still idolaters.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Rav Slifkin in his own words puts the responsibility for the cherem on Tropper’s shoulders and his lies


    "Also involved in the campaign was Yaakov Kalmanowitz's brother, Rabbi Osher Kalmanowitz of the Mir Yeshivah in New York. He did not want to openly involve himself, and so he recruited his friend Rabbi Leib Tropper of Yeshivas Kol Yaakov in Monsey. Rabbi Tropper created a story that was told to the Rabbis were were approached to condemn the books. The story involved two students in his yeshivah, described as "angelic," who allegedly dropped out of yeshivah and left Orthodoxy after reading my books and concluding that "if the Sages could have been wrong about science, then they could have been wrong about everything." Rabbi Elya Wachtfogel, the primary rabbinic authority behind this ban, presented this story as grounds for his campaign. I myself was shaken when I heard about this story, but my mentors were skeptical and advised my to investigate it. The investigation showed that one of them was barely observant to begin with, and dropped out of yeshivah before my book on the Sages' knowledge of science was published. When I discovered the identity of the other student and wrote to ask him if it was true that my books caused him to drop out, he wrote this reply. "


    http://www.zootorah.org/controversy/account.html

    ReplyDelete
  21. Rabbi Eidensohn,

    The difficulty I have regarding your (non-)response to what you described as my "solid questions regarding the gedolim" and their actions/positions in the Slifkin Affair (as well as their interactions with Rabbi Tropper in that Affair), is that the Gedolim give the ban and its introduction/publicity (which you referred to as slander, I believe) to the frum community, as entirely correct and legitimate. And thus I see no justification in taking Rabbi Tropper (or others for that matter) to task for what occurred with R' Slifkin. (At least without addressing my previous points about the Gedolim.)

    Regarding conversions, at the end of the day, your halachic position based upon your quoted Rambam, seemingly is that R' Druckman's mass conversions (that already took place) should not have ever happened but since the deed has already been done -- they went through the motions of circumcision/mikveh -- it is fait accompli and they are all Jews.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Joseph said...

    "Rabbi Eidensohn,

    The difficulty I have regarding your (non-)response to what you described as my "solid questions regarding the gedolim" and their actions/positions in the Slifkin Affair (as well as their interactions with Rabbi Tropper in that Affair), is that the Gedolim give the ban and its introduction/publicity (which you referred to as slander, I believe) to the frum community, as entirely correct and legitimate. And thus I see no justification in taking Rabbi Tropper (or others for that matter) to task for what occurred with R' Slifkin. (At least without addressing my previous points about the Gedolim.)"

    This gets into the complicated world of rabbinic authority - in particular the world of Choshen Mishpat 2. See the excellent discussion in Tzitz Eliezar (19:51). Ultimately what you or I think about the issue is not likely to make a significant difference in this matter. These issues can not be summarized with a collection of one-liners on a blog.
    ==============
    "Regarding conversions, at the end of the day, your halachic position based upon your quoted Rambam, seemingly is that R' Druckman's mass conversions (that already took place) should not have ever happened but since the deed has already been done -- they went through the motions of circumcision/mikveh -- it is fait accompli and they are all Jews."

    This issues has been discussed ad nauseam on this blog and elsewhere. Where there is a clear indication that there was no acceptance of mitzvos. i.e. nothing was observed after conversion or that convert announces he had no intention to keep mitzvos - the consensus is that the conversion is no good and never was. This is discussed in great deal in Techumin #19. Even Religious Zionists agree with this position. Again it is fully discussed in Prof. Finklestein book on Geirus. Rambam is dealing with case of proper observance after - at least for some time - but with questionable motivation. Search this blog for "drucker" "techumin" or "conversion" for more in depth discussion.

    Bottom line: Your questions are valid but you are trying to get absolute and direct answers to very complicated and subtle issues. It is more appropriate to sit down with a rav who has about 10 free hours - just to get a feel for these isssues. You might want to review the Introduction to Moreh Nevuchim where he talks about inconsistencies in an authority's position.

    ReplyDelete
  23. RaP's discussion about R'Tropper regarding the split between Kiruv and Geiurs in response to Plony Alimony 18 was made in to a post
    http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/11/r-tropper-kiruv-vs-geirus-rap-analysis.html and deleted from this comments section

    ReplyDelete
  24. the obvious question is how can one reconcile the two very contradictory sides to EJF: a) setting high common standards for geirus, b) proselytizing among intermarried couples to get the non-jewish spouse to convert?

    It is clear that their agenda is heavily dictated by their funding and that a) is a fig leaf for b) so that when they are talking to the chareidi Rabbonim, Dayanim and Roshei Yeshivos EJF seems frummer than frum. However, their activities in the field are far from what their official story maintains, with stories of geirim who arent close to being shomer Torah umitzvos who have been made Jewish through EJF. Additionally, their claim of not being a beis din - they call themselves an educational organization - is disingenuous because they shop around and because they send coach prospective geirim and present them to botei din as ready for conversion when they are not.

    One suspects that their liberal use of funds disbursed to those around the chatzeiros of the gedolim has given them access and their lavish conventions for dayanim etc where all is presented as being lifnim mishuras hadin leaves them with a core of chareidi credentials which seems on closer look to be undeserved.

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.