Friday, November 7, 2008

Moser I - no Olam HaBah

Rosh Hashanna (17a):Wrongdoers of Israel who sin with their body7 and wrongdoers of the Gentiles who sin with their body go down to Gehinnom and are punished there for twelve months. After twelve months their body is consumed and their soul is burnt and the wind scatters them under the soles of the feet of the righteous as it says, And ye shall tread down the wicked, and they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet.8 But as for the minim9 and the informers and the scoffers,10 who rejected the Torah and denied the resurrection of the dead, and those who abandoned the ways of the community,11 and those who ‘spread their terror in the land of the living’,12 and who sinned and made the masses sin, like Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his fellows — these will go down to Gehinnom and be punished there for all generations, as it says, And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have rebelled against me13 etc. Gehinnom will be consumed but they will not be consumed, as it says, and their form shall wear away the nether world.

Rambam(Hilchos Teshuva 3:6):
These are the ones who have no portion in the World to Come but are cut off and lost and are judged because of the enormity of their wickedness and sins for eternity – apostates, heretics, deniers of the Torah, deniers of resurrection of the dead or redemption, those who cause the masses to sin, those who separate from participation in the community, one who sins openly…, the informers, and those who cause fear in the community for ulterior motives, murderers, habitual speakers of lashon harah and those who deface their circumcision.

Shulchan Aruch (C.M. 388:9):
Who ever hands over a Jew into the hands of non‑Jews – whether it is the Jew himself or just his money – does not have a portion in the World to Come.

8 comments:

  1. I think it's important you also include those limitations on that ruling of the Shulchan Aruch because it's not so simple and just leaving it like that gives a very bad, and incorrect, impression.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Blogger His Lordship, Garnel Ironheart said...

    I think it's important you also include those limitations on that ruling of the Shulchan Aruch because it's not so simple and just leaving it like that gives a very bad, and incorrect, impression.
    ===================
    what limitations?

    ReplyDelete
  3. שולחן ערוך חושן משפט סימן שפח

    ד] מי שעוסק בזיופים וכדומה, ויש לחוש שיזיק רבים, עה] מתרין בו שלא יעשה, ואם אינו משגיח, יכולין למסרו ולומר שאין אחר מתעסק בו אלא זה לבד.

    ביאור הגר"א חושן משפט סימן שפח ס"ק עד

    [עד] מי שעוסק כו'. דג"כ רודף הוא ואף שאין מתכוין כמ"ש בההיא חמרא בב"ק שם ובסנה' ע"ב ב' איתביה כו' יצא ראשו כו' ואף שאי נו רק גרמא כמו במסור שאף ע"י ממון קל כמו תיבנא ואף שאינו רק חששא כמו במסור וכן מחתרת וכיוצא ועסי' תכ"ה ס"א בהג"ה וס"ב:


    שולחן ערוך הרב חושן משפט הלכות נזקי גוף ונפש ודיניהם

    סעיף יד
    מי שעוסק בזיופים כגון חתיכת מטבעות במקום שהמלכיות מקפידות וכיוצא בזה ויש לחוש שיסכן רבים דינו כרודף ומתרין בו שלא יעשה ואם אינו משגיח מותר למסרו למלכות ולומר שאין אחד מתעסק בזה אלא פלוני לבדו וכן יחיד שמעלילים עליו בגללו יכול לומר להם אני איני עושה זה אלא פלוני לבדו:

    ReplyDelete
  4. For example, this does not apply if the Jew is breaking a law and the country does not distinguish between Jews and non-Jews in the application of that law.

    For example, the state prosecutes all child abuses, irregardless of ethnic background. Handing over a Jewish child abuser to the civil authorities would not be mesirah.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Garnel Ironheart said...

    For example, this does not apply if the Jew is breaking a law and the country does not distinguish between Jews and non-Jews in the application of that law.

    For example, the state prosecutes all child abuses, irregardless of ethnic background. Handing over a Jewish child abuser to the civil authorities would not be mesirah.
    =========================
    Do you have any sources to back up these assertions? You seem to accept the view of the Aruch HaShulchan - which aside from the Tzitz Eliezar is not accepted by most poskim.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Why should reporting child abuse be different than מי שעוסק בזיופים וכדומה, ויש לחוש שיזיק רבים, עה] מתרין בו שלא יעשה, ואם אינו משגיח, יכולין למסרו ולומר שאין אחר מתעסק בו אלא זה לבד?

    I do see that someone who molests children is a very strong "mazik lerabim".

    ReplyDelete
  7. His lordship, Garnel IronheartNovember 9, 2008 at 4:34 PM

    Check out:
    http://torahweb.org/torah/special/2007/rsch_mesirah.html

    And

    http://torahweb.org/audioFrameset.html#audio=rsch_120306

    ReplyDelete
  8. Garnel Ironheart said...

    For example, this does not apply if the Jew is breaking a law and the country does not distinguish between Jews and non-Jews in the application of that law.

    For example, the state prosecutes all child abuses, irregardless of ethnic background. Handing over a Jewish child abuser to the civil authorities would not be mesirah.
    --------------------------------

    It's not quite so simple. Halchically, the legal processes and punishments in the secular system are crucial considerations. For example, the Mishne Halachos (6:277 & 7:285) is of the opinion that the court system in the U.S is not sanctioned by dina-d'malchusa, as Torah does not allow a situation where 'the law is decided by a bunch of drunks'. He raises a very valid point, and his is but one of many....

    ReplyDelete

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