Tuesday, August 19, 2014

Seminary Scandal: Rechilus and baloney - time to resolve this mess

guest post by puzzled parent

We have been going round and round on the charges of sexual abuse for several weeks now. Time to organize the facts, and puts the rechilus, rumors and baloney into perspective.

facts

1.We have established that meisels is out of the Seminary business. How do we know that? Both batei din say so, and there were witnesses to the sale. Technicalities of selling a 501 C3 corp do not particularly interest us. We know it can be done.

2.We have established that he has sold the 4 seminaries to Y. Yarmush. A long interview with Yarmush yielded the information that he has a business plan, and contingent financial backing if necessary. We did not get into the details of the sale and the contract. How much does anyone know about the ownership and financial interests in any other seminary in the country? This did not seem necessary. We believe that if Meisels is seen anywhere near any of the seminaries, there were be an immediate major hue and cry.

3. The letter from R. Kahane to 15 girls was amateurish and poorly done.There is no disputing that the letter was disturbing and calls his basic judgement into question. This does not equate to any sexual wrongdoing however.

4. Charges of enabling against administrators have been thrown around at all 4 schools, and Kahane is one of those targeted. None of these have been substantiated. No one has called the police to our knowledge in any country. No one has called Rabbis Feldman or Malinowitz to our knowledge. If Chicago Beis Din has this information, they have not shared it with anyone. Charges in a law suit have not been substantiated. It is a source of great frustration that there has been no proof put on the table that anyone can see. “ Lo raeenu aino rayah.”

If in fact R Kahne acted the way that is described in some of these blogs, we would like to verify it. We will that same day go directly to Yarmush, Rabbi Aaron Feldman, Rabbi Furst and Rabbi Malinowitz ---and Kahane will have to step down. The Rabbis promised us that if there is proof, either from an individual or a therapist, they will act. We will either give you the direct cell phones to the individuals mentioned, or we will call them. Lets have some action. enough unverified talk and baloney.

opinions

1. Many people writing on all of these blogs have no daughter enrolled in a seminary. The ones who do have, for the most part, done their own major investigation and spoke to as many people as they could. The speculation on these sites is really astonishing, uncalled for, does not contribute to any real understanding of what is truly going on, and is counterproductive.


2. Particularly disturbing are posts by “psychologists, professionals and therapists.” Most of those are not written in the style, form and fashion of any professional that we have known over our years in education and psychology. They are also unsigned. Any bone fide professional would not be concerned about signing his/her name. No one has done so. Attempts to reach them have failed. How can anyone expect any credibility to be attached to these claims?

Dilemmas

There are only a few very clear points that need clarification, and the clock is running.

A. Was there enabling by staff and administrators? First hand evidence, or evidence submitted by a therapist would help resolve this. If you have this information, please share it le tovas haklal.

B. Will the schools be safe next year? Y. Yarmush has hired Rebetzin B. Birbaum, currently the “masgiach ruchani” of Bnos Chavah to oversee the 4 schools. We intend talking to her this evening. We have checked into her enough to know that she is excellent and means business.

This has been a very trying time. Lets try to bring this to a clean and proper ending b’ruach Hatorah.

111 comments :

  1. What? Get the real facts? But this is such an interesting story. It is probably more interesting than it will be when we get the true facts. Why in the world did you publish this? I personally don't know anything about this issue, but I ask, who is it that wants to deny so many people something interesting to talk about? Is this not cruelty? Look, you have Beth Dins fighting, you have blogs fighting. Now, it's not really as exciting as a live bull fight, but still, today you have to settle for a different type of bull.

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  2. A superb common sense approach. Thank you to the writer.

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  3. The word "not" has been missed out of this article by mistake - can anybody spot where?

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  4. If the allegations that Rabbi Meisels assaulted students is true, then the seminary let the students down. If the allegations are false, then that implies that the seminary failed to elevate the girls: after months of schooling the result is students who fling false allegations at the teacher most deserving of their respect? I respectfully submit that "Puzzled" is hostage to a Shidduch system that is resulting in cases of Stockholm Syndrome.

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  5. Elliotpasik- Thank you for your fine, historical, lawyerly diatribe/explanation on what non jews are searching for when a "crime has been committed". If you are a Frum Lawyer (and not a lawyer who is Frum) you would understand that "Justice" is for THE JUDGE to decide, not humans. You ask: What do Jews want? You might want to edit that to What do people want, because a "Torah Jew" doesn't "want" anything here, except to follow what Halacha says. Even if that means it might be hard or inconvenient to them. Even if it means asking "another" question to a different BD regarding their deposit money. No one ever denied that they have a shaylah....sorry a "case". Stop trying to fit the Halachic dictum into the US constitution and law. And if g-d forbid it doesn't fit then there must be something wrong with the halacha or the Rabbis who don't understand it. Because after all "I'm a big bad secular lawyer with a law degree from a prestigious secular university and I KNOW WHAT JUSTICE IS!!!! guess what? Stick to defending your clients with your animal law theories and stop denigrating a BD that you don't agree with because, well uhhhhh "its not justice"!!!! You actually need someone to take to a pasik to you and show you some justice for writing such drivel. "Its a feeling, an emotion."

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  6. It's OK for the CBD to rule that the seminaries are not safe according to their standards. It's OK for the IBD to rule that they do not think the seminaries are not safe. However, the IBD made a mistake when they said that the seminaries were safe, instead of saying that they had no information indicating the seminaries were not safe (or making a clearer statement about the measures taken to make the seminaries safe).

    The psak of the IBD from July 25 sounds very much like a whitewash attempt, especially because it insists that no-one should talk about the Meisels scandal.

    It would be easier to take the IBD seriously if they had acknowledged wrongdoing by Meisels or at least acknowledged that the CBD verified wrongdoing by Meisels.



    Furthermore, the seminaries' information policy during this affair was abysmal.

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  7. I found it. Great freudian lapsus...

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  8. Seriously, Elliot? You imagine things about people based on the color of their beard?

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  9. @Robin - the IBD did not say that no one should talk about the seminaries.

    It said that no one should bad mouth or slander the seminaries. If you have information that you think is relevant then contact the IBD or contact the police. At least contact the CBD. If it is for to'eles than there is absolutely no prohibition of speaking. This is elementary hilchos lashon harah. It is not a whitewash - it is part of an attempt to resolve the problems - for the benefit of all concerned including the victims and the students who are all being slandered by the rumors going around.

    Could the public relations be handled better? - yes. Is that a reason to announce that there is a coverup? - no

    One of the major concerns is to reduce the hysteria surrounding the seminaries At the present the CBD is acting as if the destruction of the seminaries is the only way to deal with them

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  10. we are not hostage to the shidduch system. We in fact are turning down boys here in Israel all the time since our daughter is too young. and, we are only focused on Chedvas. It is known that meisels did not spend any time there. Your comments may apply to 1,2, or all 3 of the schools- it was beyond us to look into that. Chedvas deals with a different population base than the others: lots of Israeli-Americans. A totally different mind set.

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  11. Hatzlacha Rabbah to you as well. If we were in the states and in the same situation as the parents in the other 3 schools, we would conceivably share your reaction. There are vast changes in Chedvas. We spoke to many people there. We hope there are changes in the other schools as well.

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  12. Failed to elevate the girls?? You've got to be kdding!! This is a girl who was asked to leave the first seminary because her behavior was terrible. This is a girl who claimed to have been molested by her brother, raped by her uncle, by a waiter at a hotel, and even by a stranger at the levaya of Harav Ovadia Yosef, ZATZAL, a levaya attended by over a million people!!
    This girl's issues have absolutely NOTHING to do with the seminary's inability to elevate her.
    In fact, she confided to a teacher in her hometown, that had she known this would grow to be so big, she'd never have said it, because it never happened..! Did it? didn't it??
    I don't know..but one thing I can tell you, this young lady certainly doesn't. She just needs a lot of attention, Perhaps, Joseph, when this dies down, you'd like to give her some..try to elevate her..we;ll all be applauding your efforts

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  13. If you place this in the context of the letter written by Rab. Kahane, it very much looks like a whitewash. And the fact that the name "Meisels" is absent from the IBD psak is also significant...

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  14. I am a puzzled reader.


    I'm not following the play-by-play of this matter. But it seems to me that there are two separate issues here, and that chaos is the result of confusing them.


    CBD addressed the matter of the abuse and victimization of innocent seminary girls. The psak directed the removal this perpetrator from involvement in the seminaries. The future of the seminaries was then brought to the IBD, and they addressed the issue of transfer of ownership and control from the perpetrator to others. Their mission was to restore the seminaries to their original reputation, completely disconnected from the perpetrator. One might question whether this is effective, and one might wonder whether there are faculty remaining who were aware of the abuse and participated in a coverup.


    But Mr. Pasik's completely one sided comment is disturbing. Does he really know from analyzing a photo of Meisels how many offenses were committed? Does he know anything at all about the fellow's psyche? If he sees anything in that picture than anyone else does, it is a bundle of preconceived notions that are being somehow applied to the picture. Is this the basis of his conclusions? Are we to now accept his commentary about the legal matters (where he is the professional) when he bases a comment on a photograph? Perhaps we are less educated than he is, but does he really expect us to buy this gibberish?


    I do not have daughters ready for seminary, and I would be unlikely to patronize any of the involved seminaries anyway. I do not believe the matter was handled well either, but I am left with questions, not answers based on a streak of gray in a photograph.


    You were once correct in hesitating to comment. Had you maintained that stance, it might have been less embarrassing for you.

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  15. Rabbi Teichman of BYA confirmed last night that he had purchased the seminaries.

    Anyone know why?

    What happened to Yarmush?

    Why no mention of this Teichman story which has been circling for some time on any of the blogs?

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  16. One of the biggest commenters on frum follies is a girl who claims to have attendeed meisels seminaries (and seems to be telling the truth unless someone composed hundreds of comments falsely and somehow got tons of inside information). She claims to have spoken numerous times to the CBD and everything she said over from them has been proven true. She also said she called the IBD to give them her information but:

    "When I called the IBD they refused to hear any of my personal accounts (even getting angry at me on the phone when I tried explaining) bc they would not hear anything unless they set up an official “meeting” that would professionally discuss such things.Who knows if this meeting will ever happen... When I tried telling him that I went I teachers to complain he did NOT want to hear it." (https://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2014/08/11/conditions-imposed-on-meisels-by-chicago-rabbinical-court/#comments)



    Now I understand why they would want an official meeting but being that she (along with the other victims) is in america and will not be meeting the dayanim until some future time if at all, it calls into question exactly how the IBD has the ability and knowledge to make the necessary changes.

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  17. I humbly submit that you missed his point. Beard color tells age my friend.

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  18. @robin you are reading too much into it. The IBD's job was not to remove meisels - he had already been removed my the CBD

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  19. @robin I did and they are interested in meeting the author

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  20. I didn't write this but was asked to add it as a comment


    I concur with Mr. Passick that batei don should be allowed to do the work without interference. That is the best guarantee of the pursuit of justice.
    >
    Regrettably, attorneys and "professional advocates" – and Mr. Passick is both – have prevented this from happening.
    >
    Mr. Passick lectures us about what Ranbanim don't know, about what Western culture and his upbringing have told him about what is right and wrong, even if the Torah disagrees with him.
    >
    The Torah is what should be guiding Jews. And if that's not what they want, it's because of individuals like him who have undermined the respect for God's law.

    When batei din choose to tow the line that their attorneys draw, rather than following Shulchan Aruch, it is because of individuals like him, who hold the threat of lawsuits, Blog posts, and scurrilous articles over their heads. It is not the Ranbanim who are withholding justice, it is people like Mr. Passick.

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  21. Not only it is highly likely "she" is lying both about the facts and about who "she" is, it would be entirely unsurprising that these "comments" are posted by Lopin himself.

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  22. The older the age of a perp indicated the longer he's been doing misdeeds?



    Wow, impeccable logic.

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  23. puzzled parent: Can you briefly describe how the Israeli-American mindset is different than the American (or Israeli) mindset and in what ways?

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  24. Did you look the Rabbi at Chedvas in the eye and ask him point blank: "Did you ever hear a report that Rabbi Meisels had harassed a student?" If he did and he said "no", what can I say? If you didn't, given the situation, isn't it your responsibility to ask? And if he answered "yes", then did you ask him what he did about the report?

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  25. Don't trust me, go read through the comments on his blog and see if your suggestion sounds even the slightest bit conceivable.

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  26. So she made up this whole stroy?
    Wow, I think SHE needs to be in therapy, not everyone else suggested.

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  27. Please try and at least keep up the impression that you are objective.

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  28. From what I understand, Yarmish is the owner. If he ends up selling them, it is only due to the Chutzpa the CBD has in making up stories about him and that way forcing him to sell them. Now they ruined his name too.
    Teichman DID NOT buy them. It's all rumors.

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  29. If what you allege is correct, don't you have an obligation to publicize the identity of this girl so the rest of the community can protect itself? Just like you are obligated to publicize information about a Rav who is molesting children and assaulting women, so, too, you are obligated to publicize the identity of a student who is making false accusations against educators. This is the place to do it. If not now, then when? Go ahead. And give us your real name also, so we can follow up with you. Thanks.

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  30. this is strange.I spoke to Rabbi Kahane about 4hours ago. We discussed, among other things, Yarmush and his role. If Rabbi Teichman had taken over, I would be surprised that he did not say so. Who told you this?

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  31. WoW! pretty strong allegations. I guess to write on here you don't need to take a lie detector test. Is this a joke? its in bad taste.

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  32. I think she means that the school is a totally different mindset. It's a second year program and geared towards different types of girls than the first year programs.

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  33. I'm so happy that you're so on top of the situation.
    I think since you know everything by now, you can send your daughter to Chedvas.
    Just let her send her daughter to a school of her choice, and let her be happy with her decision!

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  34. A lot is possible when there are anonymous postings on a blog. Your comment would carry a lot more weight in these parts if you identified yourself, and brought some evidence to back up your implicit allegation.

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  35. What makes you think he didn't read the comments, I have and the commenter doesn't comes across credible at all but rather as rambling, attention seeking and and incoherent.

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  36. I did. he said no.

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  37. If the commenter is the one I think you are referring to, I am willing to pledge $100 towards her ticket and expenses. Are you in? Can we make it $200 with your contribution? Any other takers?

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  38. great question.
    1.shiduchim, There is a more even number of boys and girls in israel. Less pressure on the girls.
    2.importance of seminaries. Lots of girls don't go to seminary altogether. There is a lot of emphasis on vocation= this is a culture where the girl who wants a serious lamdan must be prepared to work full time for many years. The husbands take care of the kids bein hasedarim. The kids go to babysitters at an early age. Wives work full time. So, a girl who has a good paying judge is looked at in a better light than one who went to a prestigious seminary but has no vocation. Most girls here 3 years out of high school are trained and ready to work,
    3. girls here at not dazzled with Eretz Yisroel, or with rabbeim as Americans are. They see and hear the best that klal yisroel has to offer here [ in hebrew of course] and they can tell a really solid talmid chochom from a rah rah american.
    4. level of education. most girls who graduate from HS here know all neviim achronim thoroughly, as well as chumosh and neviim rishonim, Not sure that many americans can say that.

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  39. Mr. Guest - Looking at the photo, Meisels appears to be in his 40s. Based on experience, and study, men in their 40s typically do not do these types of bad deeds for the first time. The CBD psak also says "students", and identifies four sems. From what I gather here, the CBD held hearings for about 3 months - you don't meet over that period of time, and issue this type of decision, unless you have strong testimonial evidence from a fair number of victims. I would also note that just now, doing some "Googling", one commentator says Meisels is 45, and offers the same opinion about Meisels' offending that I do. http://www.adkanenough.com/updates/rabbi-elimelech-meisels-accused-of-sexual-misconduct (see comment of zp on July 15, 2014 at 3:25 pm). I will ignore your unnecessary, ad hominem remarks.

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  40. Comments like yours are, at best, known, in Latin, as ipse dixit:


    "Ipse dixit, Latin for 'He, himself, said it,' is a term used to identify and describe a sort of arbitrary dogmatic statement which the speaker expects the listener to accept as valid.
    The fallacy of defending a proposition by baldly asserting that it is 'just how it is' distorts the argument by opting out of it entirely: the claimant declares an issue to be intrinsic, and not changeable."



    Like "Guest" above, you're dishing out insults, but unlike him, there is nothing substantive in your comment for me to respond to. I'll just say, I co-founded a small group, we have a committee of rabbis, and in addition to them, on an ad hoc basis, I ask other rabbis, some of them quite senior and well-known, for their opinions on various issues. We take those opinions into account, and formulate our positions. If you've been following these issues in the general Jewish media, you would know this.

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  41. Again, its impossible to reply to insults. But I will clarify one point that I wrote. You say that its drivel for me to say that justice is "a feeling, an emotion". Better said is that justice is kedushah. And that halacha is not always kedusha. Halacha is a floor, not a ceiling, more than one rabbi has said, and those rabbis have it right.

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  42. Interesting....intrtd, have you spoken to Rabbi Teichman?
    Becuase I just confirmed that this rumor is UNTRUE.

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  43. whoops. 4 seminary principals do not know for sure, but this deal is in the works. CBD has forced Yarmush by breaking their word, and he may have sold to Teichman. This has been discussed. as of 12:15pm US time, the principals did not know for sure

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  44. Mr. Pasik,

    You would never dare try this type of "argument" in a court of law. Why here?

    Based on experience

    Please share your experiences with us, in a concise and precise fashion. Thank you.

    and study

    Please share the precise sources of these studies.

    From what I gather here

    Objection: Conjecture!

    Sustained

    _____
    I will ignore your unnecessary, ad hominem remarks.



    Good idea! And we will ignore yours.

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  45. I was delusional for thinking that I could post a measured, rational comment - at the general invitation of Perplexed Parent, by the way - without a string of insults.

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  46. Sheesh. Here you go again with more of your physco-babble divining he must be a repeat offender based on... his age!!

    And then to backup your babble you share what you "gather" from other divine sources and make more assumptions on top of that.

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  47. Elliot-stick to practicing and commenting about secular law. Because your definitions/clarifications of Justice/Kedusha/Halacha and how they are related to ceilings and floors are, at best, poor. Im glad you agree with the Rabbis that said it and it fits into your purview of Justice. Again, Nobody cares about what your hashkafah regarding the importance of Halacha is. Also if I had a penny every time someone quoted something "more than one rabbi said" out of context or from left field....I would be a rich man. Maybe even as rich as a lawyer.

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  48. 2. If seminaries are less important, why were you the other day expressing great concern at possibly having to change seminaries or your daughter choosing something other than seminary?

    3. American girls are less adapt at finding and choosing a real solid talmid chochom than Israeli-American girls are?

    4. What is so important for a girl to be an expert in Rishonim and Achronim?

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  49. Pasik, you've said nothing of substance yourself on this issue other than making presumptions based on other presumptions and gut feelings you have.

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  50. Halacha always is kedusha. Only someone without a Torah midset could say that halachia is not always kedusha.

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  51. I see they've corrected it now.

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  52. There's no need for her to travel. The IBD has clearly stated that they are willing to hear testimony over the phone. However testimony must be heard by the accused, and they must be given the opportunity to respond to the allegations.

    From their letter (Friday, August 1 2014):

    א. הבת המתלוננת אינה חייבת להזדהות ואולי עדיף שלא תזדהה. רק תמסור מס' טלפון לביה"ד.

    ב. ביה"ד יצטרך לדעת מראש באיזה סמינר/ים מדובר, וזאת בכדי להזמין את המנהלת/מנהל/אשת צוות עליו/ה מדובר, שישמע במה הוא מואשם וישמיע גרסתו ותגובתו, ובכדי לאפשר את בירור הדברים בדיוק מה הי', עד כמה שניתן בנסיבות העניין. ובמידה והעניינים גולשים מעל ומעבר לתפקוד המנהלים/ות ומגיעים להאשמות נגד מייזלס עצמו, יהיה צורך לשמוע גם אותו (הלא גם החייב מיתה מעידים בפניו ואפי' שור הנסקל, ולשבר אזני עוה"ד למיניהם הבוחשים בקדירה זו: גם בדיניהם). כאמור הבת לא חייבת להזדהות, אך מן העניין לציין כי הנאשם יזהה וידע מן הסתם במי ובמה המדובר.

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  53. I cannot speak for israeli girls but american girls are most definitely not adept at discerning a 1st rate talmid chacham from a charismatic rabbi. This is through no fault of their own, in fact most men in america are inadept as well.

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  54. As of now, Yarmish owns the seminaries. There is truth to the rumor inasmuch as this may happen, it is in the negotiating stage, but it has not happened as of yet, and in fact may not ever happen..so wait up with the rumors..

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  55. Intrstng. I wonder if R' Eidensohn can get more info on this.

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  56. A very close family member.

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  57. I had spoken with a family member. I have no idea if it's true or not but that's what his family member told me.

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  58. Mr. Pasik is just the type of "professional advocate" that has made it difficult for there to be any sensible discussion on this topic. In at least one case in which I was involved, his grandstanding nearly ended up allowing a pedophile to walk free because the primary accuser, a friend of mine whose son was abused, was so horrified by Mr. Pasik's writings.


    Those in our community who have a true interest in the prosecution of pedophiles -- responsible people working with parents and rabbanim away from the spotlight and giving the press wide berth -- find that people like Mr. Pasik, whose objectives appears to undermine Torah and the values we hold dear, make our work so much harder.


    Please go away.

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  59. Does she not own a phone? Can she not dial the Israeli BD? Is she helpless to email them? Yet, she does none of these things. I wonder why not.

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  60. Ah, but the anonymous postings of this young lady are gospel truth. Again, here's her opportunity to right the supposed wrong. Why doesn't she contact the beis din? You can help her dial the number.

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  61. "you don't meet over that period of time, and issue this type of
    decision, unless you have strong testimonial evidence from a fair number
    of victims"
    It might be true that a normal BD would never do such a thing, but when you're talking about thugs and terrorists like the CBD, you can't trust a word they say. You can see for yourself that they keep changind their minds about their own decisions.

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  62. very well said, & perhaps another important subject- but not for anonymous bloggers who would enter into another loshan harah-gossiping party!!

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  63. Welcome to the blog elliot, where if you disagree with the current groupthink you will be chased away with insults. Join the club.

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  64. thugs and terrorists

    YOU are mevazeh talmeidei chachamim. anout which Chazal say.......

    im very suprised RDE let your comment go through

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  65. This is what the commenter posted on FF. I think she should have a chance to defend herself:

    I don’t care to comment on eidensohn’s blog. But someone can kindly send him a message (and to all his followers) that TruthSeeker doesn’t CARE whether they believe her or not. They are a waste of time and are illogical. Eidensohn says on the blog “if there is anyone who can prove that ppl complained to staff then let’s see proof.”

    Yet after being SHOWN proof from all of my endless comments, all him and his followers have to say is: “she’s obviously fake.”

    Eidensohn, u and ur followers are WEAK and embarrassing yourselves by your weakness. He wants names. He wants my full name, address, and SS# to make sure I’m not “fake”. That is what it will take. And I will NEVER reveal that to anyone (but I did to both Bais dins, who all have my name, #, and where I come from, and also Lopin.) Eidensohn, you and your followers are quite despicable for claiming me and all of my experiences to be “made up.” Now, YOU are acting like a sex-predator cover-up.

    Again, I’m not here to convince anyone of anything. I KNOW what I heard and been thru with everything I’ve posted is 100% Emes through and through. You, the readers, make the judgment of whether I am “fake” or not.

    It a pretty sickening to know ppl still think that of me after all the info I have put out there for everyone….

    Someone asked “why didn’t she call rabbi Eidensohn?”

    Um…why SHOULD I exactly? His blog and the comments are atrocious and make no sense.

    Sorry off topic..but not gonna lie…I’m pretty angry.

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  66. No, according to a number of commenters, I am Gottesman. Guys, make up your mind. Rabbi Eidensohn can confirm I have a distincly male voice (Baritone). Having spoken to her I am sure that RDE can confirm she, has a distinctly female voice But then I suppose someone can say my extraordinary talents include operatic range and fabulous ability to impersonate many types.



    Sorry guys, I am contacting my Hollywood agent to play multiple parts in radio drama and opera.


    Questa Bella.

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  67. This blog has more opposing viewpoints allowed than any other blog discussing this issue.

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  68. @Moshe - thank you for your concern. Don't know why it matters whether I believe her or not. Or whether she comments on my blog or not.

    If she has evidence or testimony that let her the IBD or call the police

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  69. And if she is willing to spend much time commenting on a blog like frum follies, why doesn't she have the time to contact the IBD?

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  70. "but I did to both Bais dins, who all have my name, #, and where I come from"



    She claims that she already did.

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  71. Rantings undermine credibility. Foiled.

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  72. David, Where were you when all the commenters were claiming inside knowledge of the CBD investigation with absolutely zero proof? Where were you when they were claiming the CBD was bought off? Where were you then? Only now you pipe up demanding proof. Why?

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  73. It's not the opposition, it's the insults he was referring to. If you actually think the general discourse here hovers anywhere in the stratosphere of civility i suggest a good psycologist.

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  74. Again, why doesn't she call the IBD with her story? Haven't heard a reason yet.

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  75. Here's her response to you:

    "I am not sure why so many ppl are saying “why hasn’t she called?” “What, she doesn’t own a phone?”

    Do ppl on eidensohn’s blog not know how to read? I HAVE, as clearly stated by your post.

    I am fuming. Ppl have no way of denying everything I’ve been thru, so now they r attacking back “she’s fake!”. Pathetic. Truly pathetic.

    Feel free to post this as well if you’d like. I’m quite done for now."

    (https://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2014/08/19/can-seminaries-be-run-by-a-toxic-waste-hauler/#comments)

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  76. more good questions.
    2. I was answering the question for American- Israelis in general. Defined as girls born of American parents but raised in Israel for many years, and well integrated into the Israeli culture. American parents try to maintain lets say a "graft" of nice American middos. In many cases, they also want their daughters to have a deeper hashkafic understanding of yiddishkeit than the average Israeli girl. The average Israeli girl is frum because she is raised frum, period. Many American- Israelis, being a product of cross culture, ask more complex questions than that which would occur to an Israeli to ask. My daughter, for instance, enjoys reading The Shmuz and that style of writing. She works on her yiddishkeit from a rational and logical perspective perhaps more than the average Israeli does.She is going to a seminary that has a curriculum heavily based on hashkafa, classes given by experts. At the same time, the afternoon is devoted to vocation[ Chedvas has about 15 vocational choices] so.....
    4. since she has a broader knowledge base, she does not have to spend so much time in limudei kodesh[ chedvas has limudei kodesh from 9-1 and 3 hours in the evening. afternoon is on vocation. Knowledge of neviim is only an example of the wider knowledge base. most Americans who move here with children beyond grade 5 know that their children will need tutoriing to catch up.
    3. I meant to say that the girls are used to a more complex and involved shiur usually given iin Hebrew. I don't think the girls are adept at finding a real talmid chochom. The parents do the research anyway.

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  77. I also asked him that

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  78. None of the other blogs discussing this topic are more civil. They may couch their terminology in more sophisticated language, perhaps, but the venom underneath the thin surface is very clearly felt.

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  79. And I doubt her claim.

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  80. You've found yourself a cause. Good for you.

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  81. "I shudder at the thought"

    I call BS. You didn't shudder at all. Just trying to lay a little guilt on him. Undeserved guilt. His description is apt.

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  82. The title "talmid chacham" demands more than just knowing some halachah.

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  83. All of this underlines the fundamental flaw of blogs: the inability to know who is really, really telling the truth. People are reduced to reading the comments very very carefully like it is a piece of gemorroh and they are rashi and tosfos.
    Personally, if we take her at face value, and she says she spoke to the IBD, and we can only hope and assume that being the intelligent talmidei chachamim who they are, they quizzed her enough to determine if her story sounded like the truth...... I would have 2 questions:

    a. is she talking about meisels or someone else. If it is meisels, it is academic in this forum- he is out. I am sure in due time he will be punished, but there is nothing further to discuss about that.
    b. if it was someone else..... did the IBD quiz them and get to the bottom of it-- and then act on it?

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  84. did you write the same comment on FF when he posted the article blasting R feldman or the one how the Israeli BD is a bunch of bought off rabbis not a real BD because both R feldman and R mendel shafran are a lot bigger than anyone on the CBD (i dont care whos right or wrong in this case just im just upset about the bizzuy talmidei chachamim on both sides)

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  85. He didn't write any objection to that. To "Moshe", attacking the IBD is acceptable.

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  86. Moshe,


    What an inane response. I guess that when the questions are simply unanswerable you have to resort to this.

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  87. when all the commenters were claiming inside knowledge of the CBD investigation with absolutely zero proof? Where were you when they were claiming the CBD was bought off?


    Why don't you link us to these supposed comments. Oh, oops, they don't exist. Ahhh.

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  88. So I guess now we're on the same page.

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  89. Touche, I fold. You have finally outfoxed me, clever one that you are.

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  90. I hope you're not serious.

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  91. 1st I think you can agree that thugs and terrorists crosses some line, whatever it is. 2nd please go read my comments there, lopin has accused me of being "deviously dishonest", "astoundingly chutzpadik" and "borderline trolling"

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  92. That is a lie. You clearly only read what you yourself write.

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  93. 1st i dont think that crosses any more lines than what YL and most of the commentators on his site already crossed like saying the IBD was bought off. 2nd i was not attacking you just asking a honest question and im pleased that you took him to task for it as you are taking people to task here

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  94. Indeed you can. So?

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  95. No, we're not. B/c I'm honest about my bias, while you pretend to be impartial.

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  96. Always ready to help my confused patients. Though you may be beyond help.

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  97. And I doubt your claim about her claim. And don't worry, I have proof to my claim. Proof which will be forthcoming in the proper time in the proper forum and then all will be revealed.

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  98. Probably bad cell phone service. Or she probably spends her days talking to her friends and getting manicures and just doesn't have time. You know how those teenage seminary girls are.

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  99. Might I suggest a course in reading comprehension.

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  100. And the proof to my cause will be forthcoming, just hang on.

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  101. Wow if only I knew this sooner. And here we are 2 BDs and thousands of ppl waisting weeks and weeks on this. And it's all so simple! Why didn't you post this sooner and save us all so much time.

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  102. Having read almost all the comments on both sites i can say that although there is plenty on FF in both the comments and posts that should not have been written and is somewhat disgraceful, the level of insults here far far exceeds it. Also the vast majority of ppl there do not accuse the a IBD of being bought off or anything else conspiratorial, just either incompetent or working to save the institutions, on daas torah by contrast the CBD has been accused (with, acc to one repetitive commenter, proof forthcoming) and convicted of everything except killing kennedy.

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  103. To the extent that might be the case it is the result that the other blogs are mostly singing to the choir where the commenters are mostly cheering on the position of the blog owner and perhaps adding "hey, not only are you right but it's much worse than you said - and here are even more grizzly details I heard from my friend's neighbors daughter who knows someone who was once there and spoke to one of the girls."

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  104. On second thought i think you have a valid point here. But it doesn't excuse the vitriol going on here. Also like I said this blog is called daas torah and run by a talmid chacham so it should have a higher standard.

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  105. Aw, poor little fellow. Let's throw you a pity party.

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  106. why is the IBD requiring that the accused hear her allegations first hand? The dayanim could hear her out, and then question the staff members about her version. Besides, she already told all to the CBD and she has no need to tell another BD. CBD is very cooperative, when you phone them to relay what they heard as the evidence as they are the only ones who heard and acted !!

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  107. Ritainnj - in the May 2014 agreement with Meisels the CBD did not require him to sell but they did require him to be removed from the schools and contact with the students.

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  108. @Ritainnj - your question is directly answered in my post on the IBD

    http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2014/08/seminary-scandal-how-to-give.html

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  109. I see. Your vitriol is okay, b/c it's not really vitriol, it's more like a yummy fruit smoothie. It's the other guys who are tossing around the real vitriol. You are so fulla hogwash.

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  110. What agreement? I spoke to Rabbi Fuerst about 2 weeks ago. He said their statement stands, until Meisels is NOT the owner, the risk to the girls still exists.

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