Sunday, July 16, 2017

Do you have to be braindead o be frum?

Rav JB Soloveitchik claims we sacrificed our intelligence at Mt Sinai
Also a similar point in 9th volume of Igros Moshe.

22 comments :

  1. I haven't seen the sources but I presume Rambam would strongly disagree. But I must say that a great many Chareidi and otherwise religious Jews certainly seem to take this sacrifice seriously, as they are not only brain-dead morons who educate their children and followers to be likewise, but virulently attack any Jew who isn't as well.

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  2. I assume this means that B"H you have recovered from your illness. Baruch Rofeh Cholim. You were sorely missed. Welcome Back.

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  3. Yes, since being frum is irrational, as are the many additional halachos which were created by very great Humans, who nevertheless did not have the foresight as The Creator HaKodosh Baruch Hu! If you reverse engineer how halacha has developed, you will see it is essentially meaningless. Look at having separate cutlery. This isn't a torah commandment, and we do not need to be more kosher than Yehoshua, or Eliyahu HaNavi or David Hamelech. But that is one example, there are many more which actually drive us nuts.
    Ibn Ezra goes so far as to say that even the Torah mus be understood rationally, whilst HaMeiri says that a gezeira disappears once the original reason for it has disappeared. So it is ~crazy~ to keep a halacha if there is no reason for it.



    Sorry, I am being an apikores, but this is the logical conclusion of the question you ask.

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  4. I am so grateful you are back! I missed your topics and input immensely. May you enjoy a speedy refuah shelaima and a happy long life.

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  5. Does one have to be brain dead to be frum? Certainly not! Sadly, however, much of frumkeit as practiced today by Chareidim requires various degrees of brain death. At Sinai, we sacrificed the independence to guide our lives SOLELY by our intelligence. Anyone who sacrifices more of the God-given intelligence than Hashem requires is lacking intelligence!

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  6. Wow. DT is back for exactly one day and the mud slinging begins.
    I don't recall seeing your posts before. What's your background? Why the hate?
    Talking about virulent attacks....

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  7. You should be sorry you're an apikores. I hope one day you'll see error in your ways.

    The entire Torah, all mitzvos have no reason, other than Gd saying so. Your belief otherwise is steering you wrong.

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  8. Yes, but that is precisely the question being asked - so don't shoot the messenger. Th question is whether one has to be non-thinking to be frum.



    However, I think your statement about the Torah/Mitzvot is mistaken. Rambam specifically addresses this issue , and points to the verse that says they are "Hachamt'chem v binatchem" So there is Chochma to the written Law.

    Again there is also Chochma to the Oral Law, but it is on an entirely different level. I am suggesting in some cases, eg 2nd day Yom Tov b'galuta, there is no reason for it now, or when there is a fixed calendar. There is reason to keep 1st day Sukot, but no logical reason for 2ns day yomtov.

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  9. Welcome back. May you enjoy good health.

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  10. So Rav Abramski and RJBS both agree that Judaism mandates -- and by extension, in order to be a kosher religiously observant Jew, one must agree -- that all of the Torah, Judaism and Halacha are irrational and that we must believe in G-d and in His Torah and Halacha even if it makes absolutely zero sense to our minds and logic.

    Clearly this isn't just a Chareidi position.

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  11. ברוך רופא חולים

    May it be the will of Hashem that your health and well being continue to thrive
    לאורך ימים ושנים טובים

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  12. You say it's the logical conclusion. But the only tool you have is your own mind which can be biased, and also can miscalculate. You refer to certain rabbis as very great humans. That's very gracious of you, but is that what you really believe? Do believe that they had logical minds? Or would you not go that far? It seems to me that you believe your logic to be far superior to that of those to whom you refer as great humans.

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  13. DT, Can you post the discussions of the 2 rabbis you mentioned.

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  14. Chazal were absolute giants, greater even than giants like the Rambam. Where does it say that all of their decisions were logical? They were not philosophers.
    My logic more superior? No. Their halachic decisions were not based on western philosophy. Look at the Raavad on Rambam, I think in mamrim. He refutes the requirement for a Bd to be greater in numbers/ wisdom. Cites a case to support it.

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  15. I absolutely agree that I am biased and can very easily miscalculate. we have to analyse what's the topic of discussion is and whether we did in fact or are required to surrender our minds.

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  16. They were both hareidi background. Ibn Ezra, and rambam were, therefore, not hareidi.

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  17. It is not all irrational. The issur of Murder is not irrational, neither is building a Maakeh, or the issur of mishkave zachar etc. (I don't know why some people think it is fine, perhaps the brainwashing of the younger generation).

    But, I agree with your inference Moe. Many people believe the Torah is irrational, many frum people and Gedolim. But the great names in Seforim, Saadia, Rambam, Ibn Ezra, Bahya ibn Pakuda, Meiri, Ralbag , and even Ramchal, hold that it is very rational.

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  18. Ibn Ezra and Rambam certainly fit far closer to Chareidi than any other contemporary Jewish group or denomination. But RJBS simply cannot be ascribed as Chareidi.

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  19. I'm a regular guy consider frum by today's standards, and have by no means surrendered my mind nor have been required to do so. But sometimes fools are told to know their place, and a first grade student who just learned 1+1=2 shouldn't therefore think he's in the league to argue with a calculus professor. Not that it's illegal to do so, just very stupid.

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  20. The question is already risky. I agree about parameters of logic, but I have no sefer that describes these. Often a rabbi will make a statement which seems odd. Then a greater Rav will reject that as being nonsense. I have to be careful what I say about the Sanhedrin, but they would examine, debate and disagree. And question previous decisions.
    I also say that what we know about chazal is just the tip of the iceberg. We have a few statements, but they knew much more than we can infer from their statements in the gemara.
    And we can be from and still question everything.

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  21. They were rishonim. Rjbs was modern but still very frum. He opposed all change.

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