Sunday, November 22, 2020

Greenblatt-Kaminetsky Heter: Does Aharon Friedman need Heter Meah Rabbonim to remarry?

update Daas Torah - Aharon doesn't need Heter Meah Rabbonim

This saga has continued for way too long. At this point Tamar has claimed to have successfully annulled her marriage to Aharon Friedman and remarried without obtaining a Get. Her major supporters in this perverse and ignorant operation - the Kaminetskys have official declared that the heter to remarry without a Get is invalid. So have the many gedolim and poskim who have been consulted - except for Rabbi Nota Greenblatt who bizarrely clings to the heter he gave without investigating any of the facts - solely because Rabbi Kaminetsky asked him to give the heter. And now even though Rabbi Kaminetsky acknowledges he was wrong - Rabbi Greenblatt refuses to retract the heter.

The Baltimore Beis Din - the only one authorized by Aharon and Tamar  - has consistently said that Aharon has no need to give a Get to Tamar. They also have stated that Aharon has faithfully obeyed all their requests as opposed to Tamar who left the BBD and went to civil court to obtain what she wanted. She clearly became a moredes by deserting Aharon and taking their child without his permission to her parents in Philadelphia. She is clearly in violation of halacha by going to secular court without the permission of the Baltimore Beis Din. 

She and her family and supporters have waged a nasty publicity battle against Aharon - in the media, with public protests outside Aharon's home as well as his relatives. They put a large ad in the Washington subway.They tried getting him fired from his job with a congressman. They succeeded in getting him and his daughter ostracized by the community - including preventing from going to shul. They even went so far as hiring goons to beat up Aharon. All of this pressure is against the clear statement of the Baltimore Beis Din - the one Tamar agreed would be in charge of the divorce proceedings.. If in fact Aharon had been bullied into submission and given a Get - it would have posul as a Get Me'usa.

Given the above - is there any halachic reason that Aharon Friedman is not free to remarry? Does he need a heter meah rabbonim? We are dealing with 1) Moredes 2) Went to civil court without permission of beis din 3) She is committing adultery now by remarrying  without a Get 4) Refuses to return to beis din 5) she said she doesn't need a Get 6) the heter meah rabbonim was created to benefit the wife - in this case the wife says she was never married to Aharon.


update;

emes wrote: 

The case is not a new case.. it is as old as the hills. frankly it has been paskened by many of the biggest Gedolim including Rav Akiva Eiger, the chasam Sofer etc. No Heter Meah rabonim is needed because the woman is a moredes, especially if it more than 4 years of rebelling (see opinion of Chasam Sofer) and rabbeinu Gershom was not goyzer in the case of a Moredes.
Please see the psak of Rav Chaim Oyzer in Shut Achiezer chelek 1. I do not have time to translate but it should be noted as the foremost psak of the 20th century in how to deal with these cases. For some reason it is not well known. THIS PSAK SHOULD BE PUT UP IN EVERY SHUL IN THE WORLD TO STOP THE CANCER OF ARKO"OYS ALREADY.
Here is the source, it is siman Yud (in chelek rishon). No disrespect to any of the other rabbonim mentioned but Rav Chaim Oyzer was the biggest posek in pre war Lita.
Please go to page 65 for the details if the link is broken
Frankly I am not sure why in Eretz Yisroel the Gedolim were so insistent on a Hetter Meah in these kinds of cases where the woman would not go to Bais Din. I suspect it was to prevent the situation where the woman was willing to go to Bais Din and the husband still would not give the Get. But to me they are totally diffrent cases.




I would like to remind blog readers of parts of my ongoing dialogue with Rabbonim in this country.
Rabbi Nota Greenblatt told me that Aharon Friedman is obligated to give Tamar Epstein a Get. He told me this shortly after performing a marriage ceremony for Ms. Epstein.
Rabbi Hillel David told me that the Feinstein Bais Din determined Aharon Friedman is married to Tamar Epstein.
Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky told me that some Rabbis say Aharon Friedman is married to Tamar Epstein. Presumably, he meant Rabbis such as Rabbi Dovid Feinstein and Rabbi Hillel David who had ruled for him that way. Rabbi Kamenetsky also told me there are Rabbis who hold Aharon Friedman is not married to Tamar Epstein. I asked which Rabbis I could rely on if I wanted to stop trying to break up Tamar's remarriage, that is, if I wanted to accept that her second marriage was legitimate. Rabbi Kamenetsky answered, "The Rabbi in Memphis." Presumably, the Rabbi in Memphis is Rabbi Nota Greenblatt.
Rabbi Kamenetsky has never retracted his letter saying that everyone should act to persuade Mr. Friedman to give a Get.
To summarize, Rabbi Nota Greenblatt holds Aharon Friedman should give a Get. Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky holds Aharon Friedman should give a Get. This carries no weight. Both men have been discredited for numerous reasons, the most proximate one being their facilitating the remarriage of Tamar Epstein.
Rabbi Shuchatowitz reiterated to me just this week that the divorce case remains in his Bais Din.
I have never reached out to directly communicate with Tamar Epstein. I feel I am left with little alternative but to do so now. She is utterly surrounded. The Bais Din in her city holds she is still married to Aharon Friedman. Even Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky is aware, as he indicated to me, that many reputable scholars hold that she is still married to her first husband.
At this point I don't know if she has one Rabbi in the country willing to definitively and publicly state that her future offspring will not be Mamzerim unless she receives a Get. She has been backed into a corner by this blog.
The choice is hers. Can she realize that Aharon Friedman has wanted to give her a Get from the time he signed a contract to follow the order of the Baltimore Bais Din, a contract she also signed? Or will she stubbornly hold on to her mistaken belief that Aharon Friedman will never give her a Get?


==========================
Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Simon 1 of Even HaEzer Siif 10 ): R' Akiva Eiger brings from a teshuva of the Maharashal that if a woman insists she is not married (contrary to the claim of the husband) then he can marry without a heter meah rabbanon.
רבי עקיבא איגר אבן העזר סימן א
י ו] [שו"ע] ר"ג החרים. נ"ב אם הוא אומר קדשתיך בעדים והיא מכחשת דהיא מותרת לעלמ' יכול הוא לישא אחרת כיון דאין עכבה ממנו תשו' רש"ל סס"י כ"א: 

Igros Moshe (E.H. 2:2): Question:  In the case of a moredes (rebellious wife) who obtained a civil divorce as well as many thousands of dollars in the settlement from the secular court and refused to accept a Get in order to torment her husband. Is it possible to permit the husband to remarry without first obtaining permission from 100 RabbisAnswer: Concerning the case of a moredes who obtained a civil divorce and also $30,000 cash as well as the house and furnishings which she sold for $20,000. The secular court judge blocked her access to $20,000 of the $30,000 that the husband is required to pay and made the access conditional on her accepting the get that is required by the halacha and which she has already agreed to do and which was arranged in Seattle. The letter writer was made the agent to divorce her. However when he returned to Portland and notified the woman that he had the Get in his hand, she reneged on the deal and said that she did not want to free her husband under any circumstances and that she will never accept the Get because she wants to torment him. There is no question even if we don’t believe that she caused the fights between but he was the one who started them and that led to her trying with a lawyer in civil court to obtain a secular law. But since she agreed to take accept the Get and then reneged in order to torment him – she is considered a moredes since she has no interest in living with him as his wife and she also doesn’t want to divorce him. This is explicitly stated in Shulchan Aruch (E.H 77:20), If she rebels against him in order to torment him and she declares that she is tormenting him because of the wrongs he did to her or because he cursed her or because he fought with her - then she has the full status of a moredes. The Rema concludes that after 12 months if he wants to divorce her she must accept the Get even against her will or else he is given permission to marry another women. So surely in this case where she started the fight and then went to civil court to get a secular divorce. Regarding the question of whether he needs a heter of 100 Rabbis. From the language of the Rema is would seem that he permitted the husband of a moredes to remarry even if there is no heter of 100 Rabbis because it is not mentioned either in the Rema or the commentaries. The Maharshdam (E.H. 120) states that Rabbeinu Gershom never applied the cherem to a case of moredes. It would seem that his view is that the husband should not be allowed to remarry unless a number of years have passed so it is clear that she is a moredes. I saw in the Otzer Poskim (E.H. 1:73.24) where Rabbi Akiva Eiger is cited and other Achronim that permit remarriage in such a case even with a heter of 100 Rabbis. Nonetheless, l’chatchila it is best to obtain a heter of 100 Rabbis and that is the accepted practice. However if it is impossible to obtain one – as you write – then he can remarry without the heter of 100 Rabbis since it has now been 5 years that she left her husband and extracted $50, 000 from him in civil court and agreed to accept the Get and it was written according to her wishes and then she reneged in order to torment him. Such a case is rarer than the circumstances cited by the Maharshdam and others. The husband should deposit the Get and have it guarded until she comes and receives it from the agent.

Rav Menashe Klein has a long teshuva (Misheh Halachos vol 14  1-11) where he states very clearly that a husband does not have to give his wife a get if she goes to secular court without the permission of beis din. He says this is the view of the majority of achronim - including the Maharsham (7:159) and Rav Moshe Feinstein. He also says that the husband does not need a heter meah rabbonim if his wife goes to secular court without permission - but that it is best for her sake to deposit a get with beis din because she might eventually withdraw from the secular court. None the less he notes it is the custom today to deposit a get with beis din when receiving a heter meah rabbonim [This is also the view of Rav Moshe Sternbuch (4:301)] Thus he claims the majority of achronim permit a man to remarry with a heter meah rabbonim if they deposit a get with beis din - to be given when the wife renounces the rulings of the secular court. If there is no heter meah rabbonim then there is no need to give a get. Thus there is no difference between the view of Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Moshe Sternbuch in this matter.


Rav Gestetner

תשובות והנהגות כרך ד סימן שא
בענין היתר נישואין במורדת ההולכת לערכאות ומסכמת לקבל גיטה 
נשאלתי מאמריקא שמצוי בעו"ה נשים מורדות בבעליהן ואח"כ הולכות לערכאות ר"ל, ומוציא שם פס"ד לטובתה בכפייה שלא כדין תורה המחייבות את הבעל בדמי מזונות גבוהים עם עונשי מאסר וזוכה בילדים שלא כדין, והבעל מבקש היתר מאה רבנים לשאת אשה על אשתו, כיון שהיא מורדת ועוברת על דת, והיא טוענת שאין להיתר מאה רבנים תוקף כיון שמסכימה לקבל גט, ולדבריה יש רבנים תומכים בעמדתה, ורוצה להרויח בכפליים גט מדין תורה, ובדיני האומות לגזול ולחמוס מבעלה גם אחר הגט. 
ולע"ד אין בדבריה ממש, ויש להתיר לו לישא אחרת, רק ישליש הגט בב"ד כמקובל. וטעמא דהך דינא מכמה אנפי. 
ראשית כיון שאונסים אותו באונס ממון שלא כדין, דהיינו בדמי מזונות גבוהים שבדיננו לא מגיעו ה"ז גזל, נמצא דהגט נעשה בעל כרחו, וגדולי הפוסקים חוששין לגט מעושה, נמצא דהגט לא חל ותיכשל באיסור אשת איש, וע"כ חייבין לפוטרו מכל חיובים באונס כדי שיחול הגט כדין. 
ועוד אם מסרבת האשה לבוא לדין תורה עצם זה הדבר לבד נותן לה דין "מורדת" וכמבואר ב"דברי חיים" (אהע"ז סימן נ"א), ומביא שם מהגאון חות דעת שעשה מעשה באשה שסירבה לבוא לדין תורה ופסק שהיא מורדת והסכימו עמו גאוני הדור ע"ש ובשו"ת אוריין תליתאי (קמ"ד). ולפ"ז אם תבוא עמו לדין תורה דוקא חייב לתת לה גט כדין תורה, אבל כשתובעת אותו בממונות לערכאות לא תוכל להחזיק החבל בשני ראשין, להשיג גם הממונות בערכאות וגם הגט אצלנו, ואם האשה כופה אותו לקבל בחיי אישות פסקי הערכאות, אינו חייב ליתן לה גט. 
וי"ל עוד דעצם תקנת רבינו גרשום היא לטובת האשה, אכן כל זה רק כשלא מתבטל בזה ממצוה אבל הכא שגורם זה חורבן לחיי אישות, שהיא תמרוד בבעלה ותלך לעכו"ם ותקבל מזונות גבוהים וכן הילדים יהיו ברשותה, ובעלה יהא מוכרח לתת לה גט כדין תורה שתוכל לינשא, כה"ג אלים מצורך מצוה דיחיד ולא גזר רבינו גרשום במורדת ומתירין לו במאה רבנים, וישליש הגט עד שתבטל הערכאות, ואז - אם עדיין לא נשא - אסור לישא אשה עד שיגרשנה. 
ולמעשה השאלה נוגעת לאמריקא, ועל הרבנים שמה להכריע, אבל דעתי כרבנים שמה המתירין לו לישא אשה אחרת בלי פקפוק וישליש הגט, וכשתבטל הערכאות נאסור אותו לישא אשה עד שיגרשה כדין. 
ודע דאף שאנו חייבין ללחום שלא תלך לערכאות, ואנו מונעים אותה להתחתן, והגט הוא בחשש מעושה כמ"ש, מ"מ כשטוענת מאיס עלי ואין להם תקנה שתחזור אליו, רק האיש מתאכזר אליה ומתנקם בה לא לתת הגט, בזה אף שאסור לנו שום כפייה ח"ו, מ"מ ראוי להודיעו שלדעת הרבה מגדולי הפוסקים (רמב"ם, ראב"ד, בה"ג, רשב"ם, רש"י ועוד) עובר איסור וכופין אותו לגרשה. ואף שלדידן חיישינן באיסור אשת איש גם בדיעבד וח"ו לכוף בשום כפייה, לענין לצערה ולעגנה ראוי לו לחשוש שבטוענת מאיס עלי אסור לו לעגנה אף שאינה צודקת, רק אין לנו לכופו ח"ו בשום דרך כפייה שאז יש לחשוש שהגט מעושה, רק לעצמו ראוי לו להתנהג כזרעו של אברהם ודרכיה דרכי נועם כתיב וכל נתיבותיה שלום וימצא אושרו במקום אחר. כל האמור צריכים להסביר לבעל, דבמה שמעגנה עובר עבירה חמורה דאונאת דברים לצערה ואין בזה תועלת רק נקמה שלא רוצה לגור עמה, ולא יחשוב שדמה הפקר וידע שלמעלה יש דין ויש דיינא, ומה עוד דלהרבה מגדולי הקדמונים ראוי אפילו לכופו לגרש וכמ"ש, ובהרבה בתי דינים כשרואים שהבעל אינו רוצה לגרש שותקים, ולא זו הדרך אלא חייבין להודיע לו שמענה אותה שלא בצדק, והיינו אם בית דין משוכנעים שלא תחזור לעולם. 
אבל אם כעת מסכימה לבטל פסק הערכאות, אין לו שום היתר לישא עוד אשה אף שכבר התירו לו, שאינה עוברת עכשיו על דת, וחייב לתת לה גט מכיון שמוכנה לקבל ואינו יכול לעגנה, ואם נושא אשה בלי שהראשונה מגורשת עברו באיסור חרם דר"ג ר"ל. 
והדין פשוט וברור, ועיינתי באוצר הפוסקים (פ"א ס"ק ט"ז) באהע"ז (סימן א') ומצאתי שדנים במי שהתירו לו לישא אשה על אשתו על יסוד כתב סירוב, וכעת היא מתחרטת ורוצה לדון עמו ולציית דינא, והבעל אינו רוצה כי כבר יש לו היתר מאה רבנים, והשיב שאפילו אם סירבה בתחילה אחרי שהתרו בה והשיג הבעל היתר מאה רבנים, מ"מ אם קודם שנשא אחרת התחרטה, אזי שומעין לה וצריך לגור עמה ע"ש. וכ"ש כאן שלדברי הבד"ץ לא סירבה, ואף אי סירבה תחלה כיון שכעת מסכימה לגט, פשיטא שאם לא נותן לה, אסור לו לישא אשה על אשתו ונתפס ח"ו בחרם חמור. 
ויש להביא כאן דבספר "שערי ציון" מהגאון המובהק דבילסק זצ"ל (י"ח) מדייק בלשון החרם שלא רק הבעל עובר אלא אף הרב המתיר לו לישא אחרת שלא כדין נתפס בחרם חמור ר"ל, ומדייק כן בלשון רבינו גרשום גופא, וע"ש דכתב דהאיסור לרב חמור מהבעל שלהרבה פוסקים אסור חרם הוא רק דרבנן והרב עובר באיסור דלפני עור, וכ"ש כשמשיאם ממש, וכל רב בישראל יזהר בנפשו ויחוש לחומר החרם והאיסור. 
לאור כל האמור אני מצטרף לאסור עליו באיסור חמור לישא אשה אחרת אלא אם יגרש אשתו, ואם יש לו טענות עליה וסכסוכים, מקום הדיון הוא רק בבית הדין, ובינתיים אינו יכול לישא אשה אחרת כשאשתו מוכנה להתגרש, ובעניני ממונות יש להם לנהוג כדין תורה שיורו בית דין, ומובטחני ששארית ישראל לא יעשו עולה וינהגו כדת וכדין תורה. 


שו"ת אגרות משה אבן העזר חלק ג סימן א
ועוד אף אם נימא שאין במה להכריע ושקול לנו טעם שניהם נמי הא כתב הב"ש ס"ק כ"א והט"ז בס"ק ט"ז בשם הד"מ שכיון דתקנה זו הוא רק משום קטטא ולא מחשש איסור היכא דאיכא פלוגתא בתקנתא המיקל לא הפסיד, ולכן כיון דהרבה סוברים שא"צ בזה למאה רבנים וכמדומני שהם הרוב יש להקל. וידוע לי שהרבה היו מקילין בזה להתירו בלא מאה רבנים. אבל צריך לכתוב גט ולזכות זה דהרי היא תקנה גדולה שאם תנשא לאחר זמן לישראל לא יהיו בניה ממזרים שזה נחשבת תקנה לישראל שלא ירבו ממזרים. 

שו"ת מהרש"ם חלק ז סימן קנט
ב"ה תר"ס ברעזן. להרב מו"ה יהושע גלאזיר נ"י אבד"ק טוריסק. מכתבו מגלה עפה הגיעני וע"ד המעשה שהציע לפני היות כי האברך הרה"ח מו"ה משה מרדכי בהה"צ דקהלתכם שליט"א נפל בידי אשה רעה מ' חוה פערלאוו בת הרב מסטאלין ותיכף אחר נישואין יצא הקול אשר לא מצא חן בעיני' והתחילה לענותו ובכל טבילה מצאה שאלות משונות עד שהגיע זמן ווסתה והי' הדבר בסוד כי הי' בוש לגלות ונמשך כן ד' שנים עד שגילה הדברים לפני הוריו ונתגלה הריב וביני וביני נסעה על ב"מ לאחיה מקאזיניץ ולא רצתה לחזור לביתה הגם ששלחו אלי' כמה שלוחים אם לרחק אם לקרב והיא מיאנה ונמשך כך ערך ג"ש =ג' שנים= ושלח הבעל רבנים להתרות בה וגם מעכ"ת הי' בתוכם ולא שמעה לקולם עד שכתבו לגדולי הדור והסכימו להתרות בה עוד הפעם ואם לאו מותר לגרשה בע"כ או לישא אחרת ע"י ק"ר והתרו בה עוד כמ"פ עד שהסכימה ליסע לדווינסק (דיענובארג) לדין בפני הגאון ר' מאיר שמחה הכהן נ"י אב"ד דשם וגם רו"מ עם ידידנו הרה"ג אבד"ק מאצוב נ"י נסעו לשם ועוד רבנים מצדה ואחר יגיעה ד' שבועות ותווכו השלים ע"פ אופנים וכתבו פס"ד כי מי שיעבור אפילו רק על פרט א' מהפס"ד נקרא מסרב ובתחלה לא רצתה לקיים ההשלשה כפי הפסק עד אחר שנסעו כל א' לביתם חזרה והשלישה ביד הגאון הנ"ל כפי הפסק ובאה לטריסק על חג הפסח ואחר איזו שבועות חזרה לסורה וענותו בדברים שבינו לבינה ואח"ז התחילה לצעוק כי אין לו ג"א והוא כיחש כי היא המונעת ע"י ריבות וקטטות ועינוים שהולכת לישן אחר טבילה כמה שעות אחר חצות לילה וכדומה ואם תדור עמו איזה זמן כהוגן ולא יהי' בבריאות אז יסע לרופאים לברר הדבר ולהמציא תרופה והיא קללתו אותו ואת אבותיו בפני רבים בקללות נמרצות בדברים שאין להעלותן על הכתב ונתרבה המחלוקת והביאו עוד הפעם רבנים והיא הביאה הרב הבורר שלה מפינסק ואחרי רואו כי א"א עוד לתווך שלו' הסכים לבא לעמק השוה על גירושין וקבלה קנין לפני הרב ממאצוב והרב מפינסק על אופן גירושין וגם ביררה לה שליש ויצא מהם פסק כמה ליתן לה ותקבל גט ונסעו לקאוולא בשבוע שקודם ר"ה בשנת תרנ"ט לעשות השלשה ובבואם חזר הבורר שלה ולא רצה שיהי' ההשלשה שבאם לא תקבל הגט קודם ר"ה יוחזר ההשלשה להבעל את שלו ושבו ריקם מקאוולא אבל הבטיחה כי אחר ימים הטובים תקבל הג"פ ואחר עבור הזמן היא חזרה בה והשמיטה מדחי אל דחי וחזרה מהפסק באמרה שהי"ל בזיונות ומגיע לה הוספה על המעות של הפסק ובעלה הסכים גם ע"ז ולקחו גם ע"ז בוררים ושליש לפסוק כמה מגיע לה ובלבד שיהי' המשפט בקאוולא שלא בפניהם כדי שיבא לידי גמר ובהוודע לבורר שלה כי השליש לא יפסוק כרצונה הפחידו מצד האשה להשליש החדש שימסרוהו לערכאות וסילק א"ע ונמשך עוד כמה שבועות ולקחו בעה"ב א' לשליש ושוב חזרה בה באמרה כי רצונה להיות דוקא במקום המשפט בקאוולא וכפי הנראה הי' כוונתו בכדי לדחות עוד וכראות הבעל את צרתו נתן גט בע"כ בעדים כדין וגם אז לא פנתה לרבנים ומסרה הדבר בערכאות והשתדלה כמ"פ אצל האדונים למסור את בעלה ואת חותנה הרה"צ במלשינות גדול וכמעט שנלכדו ברשת שהכינה להם ורק בחמלת הש"י והוצאות רבות ניצלו מזה ועתה הבעל שואל ומבקש התרה עכת"ד שאלתו והוסיף עוד כי כפי הנשמע גם אחר הגט בע"כ השליש הבעל לה בקוולא סך רב והסכים ליקח בוררים ושליש לפסוק ביניהם בעסקי ממון והיתה המניעה מאתה ולאשר לא הי' הדבר בפירו' בעירו לא ידע דבר ברור וע"ז הובא לפני מכתב תעודה מהרב המאה"ג מו"ה יצחק שאול ברוידע מו"צ דק' קאוולא כי אמת נכון הדבר שגם אחר הגט בע"כ השליש הבעל סך רב אצל הג' ר"ד ארמאניץ בקאוולא ולילך עמה לד"ת בפני רבנים או על פסקי בעה"ב והרב הנ"ל שלח אלי' כמ"פ להודיע לה שכן הוא אבל היא מיאנה ולא שמעה לקולו והוסיפה סרה לילך בערכאותיהם וגם קודם הגט הזהירה הרב הנ"ל כמ"פ כי אם לא תשוב מדרכה לעקם ולקלקל יש כמה דרכים להבעל להתירו מכבלי העיגון והיא עמדה במרדה, וגם ראיתי מכתב מהרה"ג מו"ה אברהם נ"י מו"צ דק' בערעזדזוב בעמ"ח ספר דרך תמים ואות לטובה שאחר שחקר ודרש היטב ונודע לו כל הענין יפה עשה הרה"ח הבעל במה שנתן גט בע"כ כי על אופן זה לא תיקן רגמ"ה ומותר לו לישא אחרת ע"פ גט זה בלא חשש ופקפוק עכתה"ד. 
והנה כבר רמז הרמ"א באה"ע סוסי' קי"ז לתשו' הרא"ש כלל מ"ב דלא עדיפא כח האשה מכח האיש ובגוף התשו' כ' וז"ל בימי הגמ' אם אירע מום זה באשה בעלה הי' מגרשה ומתחייב לה כתובה וכו' ועתה שתיקן ר"ג שאין לגרשה בע"כ איך יתכן שיתחייב לה שכ"ו א"כ יפה כח האשה הרבה מכח האיש דאטו נולד מום זה באיש אין אנו אומרים יכפוה להיות אצלו אלא כופין אותו להוציא ויתן כתובה ואם נולד באשה יכפוהו להיות אצלה וכו' השתא האיש שאינו מוציא אלא לרצונו כופין אותו להוציא ויתן כתובה אם נולדו בו מומין אשה שמתגרשת בע"כ לא כ"ש אלא שר"ג עשה גדר לדבר וכי לאו ק"ו הוא שלא עלתה על לבו על כיוצא בזה לעגן האיש ולמונעו מפו"ר וכו' כולי האי לא ייפה בתקנתו כח האשה מכח האיש אך כי ראה הדור פרוץ ומזלזלין בבנות ישראל וכו' ותיקן להשוות כח האשה לכח האיש וכו' אבל לא יתכן כלל לומר במקום שהאיש כופין אותו להוציא לא יגרשנה בע"כ וכו' עכ"ל. ואף שבסוף התשו' נראה שחוכך קצת אם להתיר בנכפה לגרשה בע"כ וצידד רק למנוע ממנה שכ"ו כמ"ש בתשו' נו"ב מ"ת חאהע"ז סי' ק"ד והוא עפמ"ש בתשו' הרא"ש שם וז"ל ואפילו את"ל דר"ג השוה מדותיו וכו' כבר כתבתי בתשו' להרב אבד"ק עדערני (ח"ד סי' רי"ח) דלשון את"ל הוא רק ליתר שאת אבל העיקר לדינא כדבריו הראשונים והבאתי ראי' מהמרדכי ב"ב ר"פ מי שמת שכתב ועוד אפי' את"ל דכה"ג ל"ש אא"מ דשלב"ל =אין אדם מקנה דבר שלא בא לעולם= וכו' ובחי' אנשי שם הוכיח שדעת המרדכי כמ"ש בתחלה וע' בב"ש או"ח סי' ל"ז סקכ"א שכ"כ בדעת הריב"ש וע' בב"י או"ח סי' ל"ח שנחלק בזה עם הטור בדעת הרא"ש וכבר כתב בשו"ת תפ"צ חאו"ח סי' ל"ט בהג"ה שהחליט לדינא דלא כהנו"ב ובשו"ת ד"ח ח"א חא"ע סי' נ"א הביא כן בשם התומת ישרים והסכים לדינא כדעת מהר"ל וב"ש ע"ש וכ"ה ברדב"ז ח"מ סי' נ"ג כלל הדבר שאין שום סברא להעדיף כח האשה מכח האיש. 
והנה המבי"ט ח"ב בשניות סי' קכ"ו פסק דגם עכשיו שיש חדר"ג אם נותן כתובתה נאמן הבעל לומר שראה שעוברת על דת והאחרונים חלקו עליו וגם מדברי הרמ"א בתשו' סימן י"ב מוכח דאינו נאמן והוא מטעם שמא עיניו נתן באחרת וע' בתשו' נו"ב מ"ת סי' י"א ופת"ש סי' קע"ח סקי"ט והנה בסי' קט"ו ס"ו מבואר בשם פסקי מהרא"י דגם בדין אשה שאמרה טא"ל שמדין המשנה חיישי' שמא ענ"ב מ"מ בדאיכא רגל"ד נאמנת וא"כ מכ"ש לענין חדר"ג לגבי הבעל דבכה"ג נאמן ואין לחוש עוד שמא נע"ב ובנ"ד שברחה מטריסק ערך ג' שנים וגם אחר כמה התראות לא רצתה לא לרחק ולא לקרב והבעל טוען שהיא מורדת ומצערתו וגורמת ריב וקטטה והיא טענה עליו שאין לו ג"א ואעפ"כ לא נתרצית לא להתגרש ולא לדור עמו איזה חדשים כהוגן באהבה כאורח כל ארעא א"כ איכא רגל"ד שהיא אשה רעה בדעותי' ומורדת עליו ושונאתו וכמה טרחו טרם שהביאוה לד"ת וגם אחר הפס"ד סירבה איזו זמן מלהשליש באופן תווך השלום וכל זה לאות על רוע לבבה נגד בעלה א"כ בודאי נאמן הבעל ועוד דלפי טענתה בעצמה שאין לו ג"א כלל א"כ הודאת בע"ד כק' עדים וליכא חשש ענ"ב וא"כ הי' מותר לגרשה בע"כ. 
ועוד אני אומר שהרי מבואר בתשו' תשב"ץ ח"ב סי' ח' באשה שבעלה מצערה הרבה עד שמרוב הצער מואסת בו והכל יודעים שהוא אדם קשה הרבה וא"י לסבלו מרוב הקטטות וגם הוא מרעיבה והשיב כי לחיים ניתנה ולא לצער כדרשת חז"ל ואין אדם דר עם נחש בכפיפה ומקרא צווח טוב פת חריבה ושלוה בה מבית מלא זבחי ריב ומעוות שלא יוכל ליתקן הוא ויותר קשה מריבה מחסרון מזונות וגם הסוברים דבאומר איני זן וכו' לא יצא מודים כאן וגם לכופו להוציא יש לדון ק"ו מריח הפה דכופין מכ"ש צער מריבה שהוא מר ממות ואפי' אם תובעת כתובה לא הפסידה כלום ע"ש באורך וע"ש עוד חלק ד' טור ג' סי' ל"ה בזה. ואחרי שכבר נתבאר דלא עדיף כח האשה מכח האיש א"כ ה"נ בנ"ד שנתברר שהיא בעלת ריב וקטטה וביזתה וקיללה כמ"פ את בעלה ואת הוריו והרחיקה נדוד וגם אחר כמה יגיעות והתראות ודיני דינים לא רצתה להשלים עמו והשמיטה מדחי אל דחי להלאות רבנים ובעה"ב מלגמור ביניהם א"כ פשיטא דא"א דר עם נחש וצער מריבה שהוא מר ממות הנאמר באשה רעה ונלמד בק"ו מדינו של התשב"ץ הנ"ל בנ"ד שעשה כדין לגרשה בעל כרחה. 
ועוד דהא כבר גירשה ולדעת כמ"פ גם בעבר על חדר"ג הגט כשר ואני במקום אחר הבאתי ראי' מתשו' הרשב"א שבב"י אה"ע סי' ע"ה דהגט כשר דיעבד ומצאתי בתשו' רע"א סי' ק"א באמצע התשו' שכ' בפשיטות דהגט כשר בדיעבד וגם להמחמירים הרי טעמא משום דאעל"מ =דאי עביד לא מהני= והרי לדעת כמ"פ בשוגג לכ"ע א"ע מהני ובנ"ד הרי עכ"פ הבעל הי' אומר מותר לפי דעתו וקיי"ל דאומר מותר שוגג וא"כ לכ"ע אחר שכבר גירש הגט כשר בדיעבד אבל גם אי נימא דאין הגט כלום מ"מ הבעל עצמו בודאי אין מקום לערער עליו שעשה מעשה איסור שהרי מבואר ברשב"א קידושין ס"ו ובמהרש"א יבמות פ"ח ע"ב ובפ"י כתובות כ"ב ע"ב ובקונט"א שם דאדם נאמן בברי גם נגד הרוב וחזקה אפי' באיסור אשת איש וע' בתשו' השיב משה חא"ע סי' ס' דרך הראשון נתיב י"ט שבירר הדבר היטב בטוב טעם ודעת ומכ"ש בנ"ד לענין חדר"ג שנאמן על עצמו בברי שאומר שהיתה מורדת עליו ומצערתו ואף דאין ב"ד נזקקים לכך ליתן לו התראה ע"פ דיבורו מ"מ הוא נאמן על עצמו ואין מקום לערער עליו לומר שעשה שום איסור גם אי נימא שעשה שלא כדין לפי דעתינו ומכ"ש לפי דברינו הנ"ל שעשה כדין וכאשר כבר קדמני בזה הרה"ג מבערעזדיב נ"י במכתב תעודתו. 
ואולם גם מבלעדי כל הנ"ל אחרי שעשתה מעשה רע והלכה בערכאות ומסרה את בעלה וחותנה וכמעט שהי' קרוב להלכד כתוא מכמר א"כ גם מטעם זה לבד יש להתיר לו לישא אחרת והוא עפמ"ש בסי' קנ"ד דאם הבעל רועה זונות כופין אותו לגרש משום דכתיב רועה זונות יאבד הון והנה בתוי"ט פ"י דנדרים מ"ג הביא בשם מהר"ל מפראג דלכן נקרא המוסר בשם מסור לפי שאע"פ שבשעתו מוסר הוא לאחרים קראוהו מסור להורות כי בא יבא יומו ולא יאחר והרי הוא נמסר ע"ש וא"כ פשיטא דיש בזה חשש הפסד ממון בפדיונה כי בודאי יבא יומה שימסרוה אחרים וכבר כתבו התוס' בב"מ ק"ד ע"א ד"ה ה"ג בתוספתא וכו' דהפסד ממונו הוי כדברים שבינו לבינה ע"ש ובפרט דבנ"ד שייך חשש עיגון שאם תיתפס ע"י מסירה כפי שהעיד מהר"ל מפראג מי יודע כמה יומשך ויתעגן גם לישב בלא אשה וכבר כתבתי דלא עדיף כח האשה מאיש א"כ בודאי רשאי לישא אשה אחרת ועוד דכיון שכבר נפרץ הריב ועד צואר יגיע המסירות ומלשינות אשר מובן לכל אדם כי כעת הוא מהנמנע להטות לבבו להשלים עמה וברצונו ליתן לה נדוניתה וכתובתה גם עתה אין ספק שהנידון הוא נלמד בק"ו מנידון התשב"ץ שהבאתי שאין לחייבו לחיות חיי צער עם אשה מר ממות ובכל כה"ג לא תיקן רגמ"ה ובפרט בצירוף שאר טעמים שנתבארו עכ"פ ראוי טעם זה לצרפו לסניף. 
וכבר כתבו בתשו' הרשב"א שהובא בב"י סוסי' קט"ו דאפי' במקום צד חסידות לבד לא תיקן ר"ג כי היאך יתקן הרב ר"ג שלא יתנהג במדת חסידות ע"ש ובנ"ד שציערתו כמ"פ בדברים שבינו לבינה שגורם מכשולות והרהורים ח"ו כנודע והוחזקה בכך כמ"פ איך יעלה עה"ד לומר שתיקן ר"ג בכל כה"ג וכבר כתב בשו"ת אבני צדק חאהע"ז סי' מ' שהועד לפניו כי הגאון בעל חוו"ד והגאבד"ק סטאניסלע והגאבד"ק טאלטשוולא ז"ל נתוועדו יחדיו לדין באשה המסרבת מלעמוד לד"ת והתירו להבעל לעשות כרצונו ואף שהחמיר שם דלענין לישא אחרת צריך הסכמת ק"ר הרי נודע שדעת כמה מחברים דבמורדת א"צ ק"ר וע' בשו"ת תועפת ראם חא"ע סי' נ"ו ומשיבת נפש סי' מ"ב וכ"ה בתשו' רדב"ז ח"ב סי' ת"ש וגם להמחמירים מ"מ בנ"ד שכבר גירשה בגט בע"כ פשיטא כי כפי הצעת השאלה סגי בהסכמת ג' רבנים מובהקים לישא אחרת ואם יסכימו עוד ב' רבנים מובהקים גם אני אשא ואסבול להצטרף בהך היתרא באופן שישליש עבורה עוד גט כשר וגם כפי סך נדוניתה ותוס"כ ביד איש בטוח עד שיקוב הדין ביניהם בד"ב ע"פ דתה"ק ואין בידה לכופו על פשרות הראשונות דכבר כתב בתשו' מהר"ח א"ז סי' רנ"ב דאם לא קיים א' מהצדדים הפשר לזמן שקבעו לו הפשר בטל וכ"ה במבי"ט ח"א סי' ל"ב שהרי כתב המבי"ט שם שלא נתבטל הפשר במה שסירב איזה ימים מלקיים הפסק לפי שלא קבעו לו הפשרנים זמן, ומוכח דאם קבעו זמן ולא קיים האחד נתבטל הפשר ומכ"ש בנ"ד אחרי שהלכה בערכאות וגרמה לו הוצאות רבות ופחדים ויסורים לא יעלה על הדעת לכופו על פשר גם להסוברים דכופין על לפנים משורת הדין. ואם מהיותו טוב ונקל לפניו להשיג הסכמת מאה רבנים ליתן שאת בודאי נכון לעשות כן ותע"ב וכבר כתב בתשו' מהר"ם שי"ק חא"ע סי' ב' דיוכל לצרף ע"פ כתב ע"י בי דואר צירוף ק' רבנן ומכ"ש בנ"ד שהוא רק לחומרא בעלמא ליתר שאת. ועשו"ת שו"מ מ"ק ח"א סי' י"ב דוואהלין וליטא אף שהם תח"י מלך א' נקראים ב' מדינות לענין חדר"ג וא"כ גם פולין מדינה בפ"ע והח"ס ועוד אחרים החמירו בזה מ"מ כבר כתבתי דבנ"ד הוא רק לחומרא בעלמא וגם כל הטעם הוא לייגע הבעל ובנ"ד א"צ לזה וכמ"ש. 
והנה במ"ש למעלה לדון בה דין מורדת הגם שצריך הכרזות ושהיית יב"ח כמ"ש בסי' ע"ז כבר כתב בתשו' אבן השהם סי' א' ב' דדוקא לענין כתיבה צריך וב"ח והכרזות ולא לענין החרם דרבנן גרשון וכן הוא בח"ס ח"ב סימן קס"ז ותשו' ברכת יוסף חלק א"ע סימן ח' ובפרט בתשובות ספר יהושע סימן צ"ח וגם כבר העלה בתשובת ריב"ש שנייטך חלק או"ח סימן ב' דההכרזות ניתקנו רק לטובת הבעל אבל אם אומר לא ניחא לי ואי אפשי בתקנת חכמים שומעין לו ע"ש ואף דלכאורה יש לפקפק דדוקא בדברים שבממון יוכל לומר אי אפשי וכו' משא"כ בדבר המגיע לאיסורא ובנ"ד נוגע לאיסור חדר"ג אבל באמת מצינו דגם באיסורא אמרי' הכי כמבואר בט"ז יו"ד סימן שמ"ב סק"א יעו"ש באמצע דבריו ואני מצאתי כדבריו בר"ן כתובות פ' אף על פי בסוגיא דהמקדיש מע"י וכו' ע"ש ותבין דגם לענין קונמות לזכותו אלמוה חז"ל לשיעבודא ולא לחובתו והיינו משום דיוכל לומר אי אפשי בתק"ח ובפרט דבנ"ד היו כמה התראות ושהיית שנים וחדשים יותר מיב"ח אלא שהי' בינתים עשיית השלום אבל ג"ז הי' בקטטה ומריבה וציערתו בעינוים קשים בדברים שבינו לבינה כמקדם א"כ פשיטה דהוי כשהיית יב"ח ויותר. עוד זאת אבאר במה שכתבתי למעלה דלפי הוראתה בטענתה שאמרה שאין לו ג"א א"כ אין לחשדו שמא ענ"ב ולכאורה יש לפקפק כי אם אולי לא אמרה זאת בב"ד אלא חוץ לב"ד וקיי"ל דהטוען חוץ לב"ד יכול לחזור בו ולא נתברר לי ממכתב רו"מ אם הטענה הזאת הי' גם בב"ד אבל נראה דלפמ"ש הר"י שבטוח"מ סי' קמ"ו ובסמ"ע ס"ק ס"ה דהיכי שטוען חוץ לב"ד לזכות עצמו אלא דאנו לומדים מזה חובתו מהני ההודאה גם חוץ לב"ד ע"ש א"כ ה"נ בזה הרי היא טענה זאת לטובתה להתנצל על מה שאינה טובלת בכל עת אלא שאנו לומדים מזה חובתה שפיר מהני ואף דבסי' קמ"ו הובאו ב' דיעות שנחלקו בזה הרי כבר כתבו הד"מ בא"ע סי' א' סוס"ק ט' דבכל פלוגתא בענין חדר"ג כיון שאין בו אלא משום תקנה הרי סד"ר להקל ומכ"ש בספק תקנה וכ"ה בט"ז א"ע סי' ל"ט סק"ה בסופו, ועוד שהרי מבואר בט"ז חו"מ סי' ע"ט ס"ט בסופו דהלכה רווחת כדעת הר"י דכל הודאה שהי' לטובתו אלא שנמשך חובתו גם חוץ לב"ד מיחשב הודאה ע"ש וה"נ בזה. 

 [to be continued]

76 comments :

  1. Why would he not need a heter meah rabbonim?

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  2. He is still married to Tamar, so presumably he needs a heter meah rabbonim to remarry. Rav Menashe Klein paskens, apparently, in such a case he could remarry without a HMR even though he remains married to his moredes wife but the consensus of poskm seems to be that he does need a HMR.

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  3. what is the purpose of a heter meah rabbonim? It is not a doreissa requirement but was added by Rabbeinu Gershom - why?

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  4. He assured having 2 wives and was matir if the man obtains a heter stating that she is etc. and that he deposited a get for her to collect if she wants to. Why would he not require that here. You are saying that all of the elements of the heter are present here so we don't need to formally follow through with the heter, but the requirement is that when the elements are present, a heter should be authorized by 100.

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  5. see the Maharsham I just added to the post

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  6. It seems pretty obvious to me that the one who could be considered a ba'al davar in requiring a hetter me'ah rabbonim is the first wife. If she herself is claiming that she is not married to him, I don't see why he would need one.

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  7. You mean if he has a hard time getting the 100. But he says that it is preferred in any case to get the heter maya. Thanks for the Maharsham

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  8. that is in a normal case where the wife went to secular court but still wants to receive a Get but doesn't want to give up what the ruling of the secular court in her favor.

    But in the present case the wife says she was never his wife and is not asking for a Get and in fact if she accepted the Get that would indicate the heter was no good and she has been committing adultery. So why should he even have to bother with the 100 or a Get?

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  9. I don't see that logic. There is the truth, and that is that she needs a get. In every case of the husband being mashlish the get, the wife doesn't want the get for whatever reason, so here too she doesn't want it for whatever reason. Her reason doesn't matter.

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  10. RMF seems to have misread the RAE, who specifically says no MR, and no hashlashat get (escrow get) required. (Perhaps that's what otzar haPoskim that RMF cites, but RAE (tinyana 100) itself says otherwise.)

    RAE's son in law CS seems to have ruled on the same (or very similar) case (shut #3). Shaarei tshuvah points it out as not requiring MR or escrow get.

    In fact, that was always the custom in Hungary to not require 100 or escrow in case of a moredet.

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  11. Especially in a case where the second husband is a Cohen (which RNG said she can marry.). (Probably not this case, but do we know?)

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  12. If she doesn't want to accept a Get - then what is the significance of the husband giving one or depositing one? CRG was for the benefit of the wife and in this case she says she doesn't want it

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  13. That's the usual case with a HMR.
    1. She doesn't want a get.
    2. You can't have 2 wives - CRG
    3. You can't give a get against her will - CRG
    4. So RG gives dispensation to his rule of no 2 wives, by the condition of doing the HMR.

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  14. but this case is different since she claims she doesn't need a Get.
    It is clear from the poskim that there is no need for a heter of meah rabbonim in this case
    the only question is whether a Get needs to be deposited

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  15. I would like to remind blog readers of parts of my ongoing dialogue with Rabbonim in this country.

    Rabbi Nota Greenblatt told me that Aharon Friedman is obligated to give Tamar Epstein a Get. He told me this shortly after performing a marriage ceremony for Ms. Epstein.

    Rabbi Hillel David told me that the Feinstein Bais Din determined Aharon Friedman is married to Tamar Epstein.

    Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky told me that some Rabbis say Aharon Friedman is married to Tamar Epstein. Presumably, he meant Rabbis such as Rabbi Dovid Feinstein and Rabbi Hillel David who had ruled for him that way. Rabbi Kamenetsky also told me there are Rabbis who hold Aharon Friedman is not married to Tamar Epstein. I asked which Rabbis I could rely on if I wanted to stop trying to break up Tamar's remarriage, that is, if I wanted to accept that her second marriage was legitimate. Rabbi Kamenetsky answered, "The Rabbi in Memphis." Presumably, the Rabbi in Memphis is Rabbi Nota Greenblatt.

    Rabbi Kamenetsky has never retracted his letter saying that everyone should act to persuade Mr. Friedman to give a Get.

    To summarize, Rabbi Nota Greenblatt holds Aharon Friedman should give a Get. Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky holds Aharon Friedman should give a Get. This carries no weight. Both men have been discredited for numerous reasons, the most proximate one being their facilitating the remarriage of Tamar Epstein.

    Rabbi Shuchatowitz reiterated to me just this week that the divorce case remains in his Bais Din.

    I have never reached out to directly communicate with Tamar Epstein. I feel I am left with little alternative but to do so now. She is utterly surrounded. The Bais Din in her city holds she is still married to Aharon Friedman. Even Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky is aware, as he indicated to me, that many reputable scholars hold that she is still married to her first husband.

    At this point I don't know if she has one Rabbi in the country willing to definitively and publicly state that her future offspring will not be Mamzerim unless she receives a Get. She has been backed into a corner by this blog.

    The choice is hers. Can she realize that Aharon Friedman has wanted to give her a Get from the time he signed a contract to follow the order of the Baltimore Bais Din, a contract she also signed? Or will she stubbornly hold on to her mistaken belief that Aharon Friedman will never give her a Get?

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  16. The Maharsham says that since a get be'al korcha was already given, even though that is usually not allowed by RG, but in that case that would suffice, and still he says that licatchila a HMR should be done. But just to marry a second wife without at least depositing a get?

    Why do you say it's clear from the poskim? Which poskim?

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  17. What difference does it make if she says erroneously that she doesn't need a get? RG didn't allow to marry a second wife.

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  18. “She and her family and supporters have waged a nasty publicity battle against Aharon - in the media, with public protests outside Aharon's home as well as his relatives. They put a large ad in the Washington subway. They tried getting him fired from his job with a congressman. They succeeded in getting him and his daughter ostracized by the community - including preventing from going to shul. They even went so far as hiring goons to beat up Aharon.”
    I have a wild theory. Hear me out. Tamar never really wanted and still doesn’t want Aharon to give her a get. Tamar’s aim is to attack and to embarrass Aharon. Tamar has plenty of money, popularity, and good looks. Tamar could have anything she wants. It reminds me of
    “That day Haman went out happy and lighthearted. But when Haman saw Mordecai in the palace gate, and Mordecai did not rise or even stir on his account, Haman was filled with rage at him. Nevertheless, Haman controlled himself and went home. He sent for his friends and his wife Zeresh, and Haman told them about his great wealth and his many sons, and all about how the king had promoted him and advanced him above the officials and the king’s courtiers. What is more, said Haman, Queen Esther gave a feast, and besides the king she did not have anyone but me. And tomorrow too I am invited by her along with the king. Yet all this means nothing to me every time I see that Jew Mordecai sitting in the palace gate.” (Ester 4:9-13).
    In Susan v Gerald I didn’t know if Susan really wanted a divorce. The first she asked me for a divorce was right after sex when she came twice and was washing herself in the bathroom. The true moredet is one who will not have sex:
    שולחן ערוך אבן העזר הלכות כתובות סימן עז
    האשה שמנעה בעלה מתשמיש, היא הנקראת מורדת
    I asked the rabbis in Jerusalem what should I do? Susan refuses to join me in Israel with our children as she earlier promised and now demands a get. The rabbis advised me to send her a get to see if she’ll accept. B”h she accepted the get 2/15/1993 and I moved on and remarried 5/9/1993 to Yemima whom I love dearly. G—d blessed us with 3 daughters.
    See, I still don’t know, even today, if Susan really wanted a divorce.
    רש"י בראשית פרשת בראשית פרק ג פסוק ו
    ותתן גם לאישה עמה - שלא תמות היא ויחיה הוא,ז וישא אשה אחרת:
    Rashi says that Eve feared she would die and Adam would marry another. The worst fear of women is that her husband marries another.

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  19. the takana was set up solely for the sake of the wife - if she doesn't want it either by her actions or her words - why should we be makpid?

    ReplyDelete
  20. not talking about a Get but the heter

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20027&hilite=ab89d188-b772-4e06-8744-35c0bd26c16e&st=מורדת&pgnum=377

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  21. Let me explain further---with my wild theory.
    If my theory is right, that Tamar never wanted and still doesn’t want the get… Orlow’s suggestion to talk to Tamar --- what to get the truth ?? Right now there is another problem.
    Susan is a supporter of Mendel Epstein, internet;
    “I always knew he is a vigilante operating in system similar to the Wild West,'' said Rivka Haut, a longtime activist on behalf of agunot who has known the rabbi for years, but said she had no direct knowledge of any abductions. However, she said that women in such situations frequently asked her advice about pursuing such extreme measures. Haut, a co-founder of the advocacy group Agunah, Inc., says she has always counseled people to steer clear of violence or illegal schemes...Haut, an Orthodox activist who is working on an upcoming book, “The Agunah Chronicles,” with Susan Aranoff, with whom she cofounded Agunah, Inc., said she was “surprised to see the headlines” about the FBI sting but “not surprised” to see the content.
    The problem is that Mendel Epstein is using the Alor Azaria defense strategy of vigilante.
    Attorney Peter Goldberger, Esq. for Appellant Mendel Epstein is appealing to the court to reduce Mendel Epstein’s sentence arguing that Mendel Epstein is a vigilante, working without legal or religious authority to keep order and to fight crime. Mendel Epstein is using the Alor Azaria defense strategy of vigilante. I’m completely on Alor Azaria’s side as are most Israelis. We expect Alor Azaria to win in appeal.
    Judge Freda Wolfson heard testimony about the beating of Aharon and the $60,000 payment to Mendel Epstein’s shul and bais Yacov shortly before the beating etc etc. The problem is that all friends of Mendel Epstein will be quiet until after the appeal court rules. Good luck to Attorney Peter Goldberger, Esq.

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  22. You are correct, but here, it is not that "she doesn't want a get." It is that she claims she was never married to him in the first place.

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  23. Who cares what she claims in her foolishness. It boils down down to the fact that she doesn't want a get.

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  24. We see that The Maharsham, even when he held that min hadin we don't need a HMR, he still preferred to have one likatchilla. We should do the same here, mihiyos tov, but if it's very difficult for some reason, we probably should not make that be me'akev, as you say.

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  25. How does Rabbi Nota Greenblatt explain why Aharon Friedman is obligated to give Tamar a get if she is married to another man?
    Why did he perform the wedding for Tamar before the get he feels was obligated to be given was delivered?
    In all seriousness, is Rabbi Greenblatt suffering from dementia or other age-related mental weakness that is impairing his judgement and/or memory?

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  26. It's not dementia. It's the challenge of dealing with the mess he allowed himself into - this time and....

    Of course it sounds ludicrous. Every child will not accept a claim that he is married to her, but she is not married to him (but is even married to a different guy...).

    But it doesn't begin here. Rabbi Landesman - in his teshuva against the "heter" - wrote that Rabbi G. felt bad for Tamar, so he was motivated to "help" her. In all likelihood, that motivation brought him to "help" her by rubber-stamping whatever R. Shalom Kamentzky wrote (Rabbi Greenblatt himself wrote that he just rubber-stamped it). But to him, that rubber stamp has no relevance to Ahron, somehow.

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  27. The question of whether Aharon Friedman needs a Heter Meah Rabbonim to remarry, or not, can be relegated to a subject of debate by halachic purists.

    Practically speaking, if Aharon wants to move forward with his life, he can ask a prominent rav, sympathetic to his plight, to write up the heter (Rabbi Gestetner?). In an era of telecommunications, 100 signatures can be collected in no time at all. Voila!

    Despite the screaming coming from the Fakegunah cheering squad (ORA = Organization Repressing Agunos), Meir Kin moved forward with his life, and remarried according to halacha. It's now time for Aharon to do so too.

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  28. If in fact Aharon had been bullied into submission and given a Get - it would have posul as a Get Me'usa.

    This case already has the one-person marriage, where only the man is somehow married to the woman, but the woman is not married to the man.

    I would like to present another cool claim. If there was a get that is worthless according to Rav Moshe Feinstein and all major poskim, then there is still somehow "a scent of a get".

    Well, Moshe Bergman came up with a new one: if he gets married, then somehow he accepted the invalid get retroactively, and it somehow - abra kadabra style - becomes a valid get. He supposedly got one of the signatories on the invalid siruv against Ahron Friedman to agree with his "logic".

    He used this, lema'aseh, to marry off an aishes ish.
    ___________
    About six weeks before Mendel Epstein was busted and arrested, he published this article http://www.vosizneias.com/139832?fb_action_ids=10151612188533597&fb_action_types=og.recommends
    In it he writes that R. Moshe Bergman is in support of his approach. Need more be said?

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  29. If Aharon Friedman is willing and able to give the Get, just Tamar is seemingly not willing to accept it, why doesn't Aharon deposit the get by the Baltimore Bet Din, and thereby make it clear to all those who are sympathetic to Tamar that she is the one creating the problems over here?

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  30. it is clear from the literature that Aharon does not need a heter meah rabbonim

    ReplyDelete
  31. Who is R' Bergman?

    Your VIN link doesn't work.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Is R' Ahron Friedman interested in remarrying without a HMR?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Let's let Aharon decide for himself which route he chooses to take.

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  34. There are conditions Tamar must satisfy before she is granted a Get. Specifically her rectifying the wrongs she's committed against her husband Aharon. He has the halachic, moral and ethical right to wait for her to fix the damages she caused him before he gives her a divorce.

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  35. FedupwithcorruprabbisFebruary 22, 2017 at 11:36 PM

    TO AHARON FRIEDMAN: Go to Rav Gestetner who will help you remarry the way he helped Meir kin. Also move to Las Vegas where Meir kin will accept you in his minyan with open arms.

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  36. I think it's something like this. Rabbi Kamenetsky asks Rabbi Greenblatt if there's an opening for a nullification based on the mental state of husband. Rabbi Greenblatt replies yes, if the situation aligns with conditions in a Tshuva of Reb Moshe. Rabbi Kamenetsky then supplies a piece of paper to Rabbi Greenblatt that says the husband is someone no woman would ever live with. Implied, but not stated, is that the situation fits the Tshuva of Reb Moshe, and that the evaluation in the paper has legitimacy. Rabbi Greenblatt, out of respect for the Gadol Rabbi Kamenetsky, performs the marriage for Tamar. Thus, between the two, Rabbi Kamenetsky and Rabbi Greenblatt, the Halacha is finessed.

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  37. Because many of those "who are sympathetic to Tamar" are not lacking clarity. They just want to establish G.O.D. (Get On Demand). Depositing a Get would only enflame their passions more, and cause them to step up their demands for an unconditional Get.

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  38. A Rav explained to me that Rabbi Greenblatt was telling me was that he recognized that many Rabbonim would not accept that the marriage nullification. So to satisfy those Rabbanim, a Get should be given.

    The Agudas Harabonim letter saying pressure should be put on Aharon Friedman to give a Get has never been rescinded. Thus Rabbi Greenblatt is not alone in still demanding a Get. It should always been kept in mind that this pressure is against Halacha, and can lead to an invalid Get.

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  39. “She clearly became a moredes by deserting Aharon and taking their child without his permission to her parents in Philadelphia. She is clearly in violation of halacha by going to secular court without the permission of the Baltimore Beis Din…. They tried getting him fired from his job with a congressman. They succeeded in getting him and his daughter ostracized by the community - including preventing from going to shul. They even went so far as hiring goons to beat up Aharon.”
    The true moredet is one who will not have sex:
    שולחן ערוך אבן העזר הלכות כתובות סימן עז
    האשה שמנעה בעלה מתשמיש, היא הנקראת מורדת
    I quote the Bible (Psalms 82:1-4)
    “A psalm of Asaph. God stands in the divine assembly; among the divine beings He pronounces judgment. How long will you judge perversely, showing favor to the wicked? Selah. Judge the wretched and the orphan, vindicate the lowly and the poor, rescue the wretched and the needy; save them from the hand of the wicked.''
    תהלים פרק פב פסוק ד
    פַּלְּטוּ דַל וְאֶבְיוֹן מִיַּד רְשָׁעִים הַצִּילוּ:
    מלבי"ם תהלים פרק פב פסוק ד
    פלטו, ונגד לעשות משפט לנעשקים ונגזלים מיד בעלי זרוע, אמר פלטו דל ואביון והצילו אותו מיד רשעים הבאים לעשקו:
    The Malbim says “rescue,” against bullies suing the exploited and robbed. He says rescue the wretched and the needy; save them from the hand of the wicked.''
    רד"ק תהלים פרק פב פסוק ד
    פלטו דל, שלא יעשקוהו בגופו:
    Redak says “vindicate the lowly” not exploit him physically. I’d like to see Aharon vindicated. Pacer 1/17/2017: “ Does the RFRA bar prosecution of Orthodox Jews for kidnapping to compel Jewish husbands to grant their wives a divorce?”
    Does halacha bar prosecution of criminal offenses of Orthodox Jews who commit crimes to compel Jewish husbands to grant their wives a divorce?”

    ReplyDelete
  40. http://www.vosizneias.com/139832

    Do a google search.

    He is a toan who had a close working relationship with Mendel Epstein. He is a student of Rabbi Belsky and has a shul in Flatbush. To his credit, he can be a skilled negotiator.

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  41. True. But if I understand your post of 2 days ago, youseem to be taking the side that Aharon needs a Heter Meah Rabonim to get remarried. If that is the case, and based on this thread, he seems to want the ability to remarry, or the whole point is irrelevant, isn't part of the Heter Meah process depositing a get by the Bet Din?

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  42. depositing a get is not a requirement to remarry.
    It is considered desirable in case the wife ever does teshuva and is concerned about mamzerim. There is no issur involved if he gets remarried without depositing a Get

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  43. Mendel Epstein speaks horribly I quote http://www.vosizneias.com/139832:
    Rabbi Epstein says he called the rabbi holding up the get, inquiring as to why it was taking so long. He said that there was already evidentiary proof that the husband was no longer observing Shabbos and was also already dating other women, so why the delay? Rabbi Epstein says that the rabbi told him that he requires a therapist as a third party to independently verify that the marriage could not be repaired or saved.
    “There is no basis in halachah for this opinion,” Rabbi Epstein says, adding that "all this ignorant approach does is prolong the process and increase the suffering, usually on the woman’s side of the equation."
    Epstein explains that, while the goal of many of the rabbis involved in these situations is to keep the couple together and try to keep the family unit intact, it may look like the best situation from the outside, but internally it can be doing more damage than anyone can imagine.
    “There are a lot of stupid women staying with their husbands,” the Rabbi says, “even though by right the marriage is over and for everyone’s good they should be out of there.”

    Epstein confessed that there are, however, occasions where going to court first is beneficial, especially when there is a particularly obdurate and uncooperative husband involved.

    The Rabbi answers, “Cursing her or her family could be grounds for a get.

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  44. I have a question. Does the halacha permit Aharon to make criminal complaint against Mendel Epstein and friends in secular court? Mendel Epstein and so many of his friends are highly respected rabbis, rabbinical judges and such in America. Aharon is in serious danger in America.
    (internet 2012):
    “Supporters of Tamar Epstein, whose ex-husband, Aharon Friedman, refuses to give her a religious divorce, have been pressuring Friedman's boss, U.S. Rep. Dave Camp, R-Michigan, to fire Friedman. They have protested in front of Camp's office, signed a petition at change.org, started a website (freetamar.org) and in February, bombarded Camp's official congressional Facebook page. But Susan Aranoff, director of Agunah International, which supports Jewish women seeking divorces, said social media has little effect because many husbands still are resistant after all the bullets have been fired."
    My advice is for Aharon, if he wants to stay in America and not make Aliya to Israel, he should hire a lawyer and file criminal complaints against all those that beat him up and grievously pestered him.
    מלבי"ם תהלים פרק פב פסוק ד
    פלטו, ונגד לעשות משפט לנעשקים ונגזלים מיד בעלי זרוע, אמר פלטו דל ואביון והצילו אותו מיד רשעים הבאים לעשקו:
    The Malbim says “rescue,” against bullies suing the exploited and robbed. He says rescue the wretched and the needy; save them from the hand of the wicked.''
    רד"ק תהלים פרק פב פסוק ד
    פלטו דל, שלא יעשקוהו בגופו:

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  45. Even if he needs a HMR and needs to deposit a Get with a B"D, the B"D he gave it to would not hand over the Get to get to her until and unless she first corrects the damages she caused him.

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  46. That's like saying the applicant is eligible for a position if he supplies a Social Security number so a friend gives him a stolen number to use. When it turns out later the number is bogus, should the fraudster be allowed to remain in the position?

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  47. I don't think that's what he said, but it may be a part of his rationale.

    His groupies explained it as follows: Tamar was "permitted" to marry through a leniency, since Chazal worked very hard to permit a true and real agunah to remarry. In his explanation, that leniency is only applicable to her and not to him.

    However, after all the lomdus and twisting like a pretzel, it does not go. If he is married to her, then she is married to him. If she is not married to him, then he is not married to her. Any other way is impossible. His reasoning may be like that Rav explained it to you; but it's not what he said.

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  48. *Does Tamar have a leg to stand on*???

    As things stand presently, the order of precedence in accordance of the Gedolei uPoskei hador has been paskened as posted on this Blog, She immediately must depart, Tamar then must take a get from second Husband first because of Tekanas chaza"l of kilkul shelo yomru eishes ish yotzaat bli get, since people think she *has been* married to Adam. The next move is to go pick up Aron's Get he deposited in BBD, only and *only *after fulfilling all the conditions as put forth then at the time.

    In addition, she was a Mesarevet leDin jumping the gun and went to court without permission from BBD shelo kedin, and must rectify all the monetary damages she has incurred to Aron and make good on visitation rights along with everything else. She then can pick up her Get from BBD and go on her merry way and never to see her paramour Adam ever again, as in accordance with Halacha of Teitze mize uMize and a Sotah.

    Furthermore, when the K's misled RNG by submitting an invalid Doc's report and was informed of such, RNG replied that * whoever (the K's) misled him carries the burden of informing the couple that the 1) Heter is invalid and 2) should also order them to depart as well*. In the upper right hand corner of this page, there is the letter displayed of which reflects that RSK Jr. did indeed inform the Baal Dovor (Adam) of R' Dovid F's psak BD, that the Heter has absolutely no validity, of which also concurs and happens to be in compliance just the same, of RNG in stating so to do. This for RNG is like hadoes baal din kemeah eidim damya. With this, RNG admitted that the Doc's doc as well as the Heter has no value, and therefore must be instructed by those responsible (the K's) to depart.

    Here is the Million Dollar question!

    On who is the couple relying on for their so called Kosher Marriage? From whence do they take their Chutzpah? The Gedoilei uPoskei haDor have voiced their opposition before Kol haOlam Kulo, same applies to R' Dovid's BD, the K's, RNG, thereby, having absolutely no support from anyone!

    What we have left is *He and Her against the world*. Lekatchila may koSavrei? She is nothing more than a Sotah Deoraysa, he is a Noef with all the bells and whistles and then they say that he is Baal Tshuva. Vein lach dovor sheker godol mize, tovel vesheretz beyodah, umochor Kreisa bein shineho? In the times of the Sanhedrin, they would both be stoned to death, R'L'.

    Is it a wonder why R' Moshe Shternbuch Shlit"a urges to demonstrate more, and so much more! Whatever we yet did, is not enough.

    Where is RHS in all this, TAMAR is not FREE, and there are no FREE lunches. She is an Eishes ish lechol dovor. RHS in cahoots, has been involved from Adam in TAMAR's support, anywhere from the initiation of Tamar's original Get Quest pursuit, to the Tisha Ba'av Goon Squad beatings, Kivyachol in accordance of R' Akiva Eiger's alleged so called Shu"t Psak along with Mendele Epstein's blessings, Seruvim of Husbands asher lo haya velo nivra, Heterim shel ma bekach of matir assurim, vechol sha'ar divrei bela R'L'. All this is the product and outcome of ORA Sharya under his Hechsher and his support. It is his burden to rePOST, TAMAR IS AN EISHES ISH and neither an AGUNAH nor FREE at all. She is FREE to pick up the Get haMshuleshes asher kosuv B'BBD, and let my people go. Leave Aron alone, and ask mechila berabim the sooner the better, and that goes for all the Malachei chabolo as well. is it a wonder why Moshiach refuses to bail us out of this *Finstere Golus?*

    Lechol man deboie lemeida, lehevei yodua

    We the People are behind you Aharon! Chazak ve'Ematz. We support you all the way, misof haolam ad sofo. Uvo letzion Goel, Amen.

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  49. No such thing as retroactive after being invalid. Vekosav la lishmah must be from fresh stock. You can't take out a Get from the mothballs and then regurgitate.

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  50. The bet din holding the get will RUN, not stop, not collect $200, to make themselves the heroes in ORAs eyes.

    And to "protect" an eishet wish.

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  51. The proper "nimshal" to you is: a couple shows up before a "mesader kiddushinn" with a forged ptur (get document; I'll simplify).

    Is the marriage halachically valid? No.

    Has such a case happened? I'm sure, but no rabbi will admit it.

    (There is a case from SA of a woman who claimed to get a heter that her husband died in the holocaust. A few years (and a few children) later, her husband shows up.

    RMF pressed her, and pressed her, till she finally admitted she made up the heter.)

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  52. Cited above. Also, consult pressburger poskim (chasidim don't know what went on there; they rely on supposed chassidic custom only one generation old.)

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  53. That is RMFs and CSs arguments.

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  54. What's with you?! What do have against those that play Purim all year long with hilchos gitin and eishes ish?! Everyone's gotta have a calling in life....

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  55. You don't have to go that far back; I know of a very recent case.....

    (But I'll remain an anonymous online commenter, which can obviously cannot be fully trusted..... at least for now)

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  56. He chooses the B"D.

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  57. That case as I heard it was she claimed the heter was provided by a particular rav who was no longer alive and Rav Moshe, zt'l, said "Impossible!" that rav (whom he had known) would ever have provided such a heter!

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  58. Toen ta'anos Ganav veKozak hanigzal, umvakesh schar k'Efron haChiti, shekel Kessef oiver lasoicher. Velo lechinam holach hazarzir ....

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  59. “This saga has continued for way too long.”
    I wrote today to NYS Court of Appeals motion 2017-262:
    “6. My problem Susan v Gerald is that Susan is a moredet, the Talmud word for the bad wife. Susan is clearly a moredet by deserting me by refusing to join me with our 6 children in Israel as she promised in writing in Aliya papers in 1989. Susan is also a moredet for going to the civil court for no good purpose.
    I quote Rabbi Irwin Haut, the lawyer who filed the civil action against me:
    “IRWIN HAUT being duly sworn deposes and says: 1. I reside at 852 East 12th Street, Brooklyn, New York and maintain offices for the practice of law in New York County. 2. I submit this affidavit at SUSAN ARANOFF's request in opposition to GERALD ARANOFF's motion for summary judgment .dismissing his wife's separation action… 5. On that day and on the following days prior to defendant's departure, I urged him not to leave and told him he would be abandoning his wife and children if he persisted in leaving… WHEREFORE you deponent respectfully requests that defendant's motion be denied in all respects. IRWIN HAUT Sworn to before me this 25th day of September, 1991..,”
    Susan won in civil court custody, the house and 55% of my pension. I'm trying to free up my pension. I would drop my motion 2017-262 in the NYS Court of Appeals if Susan would allow me my pension from here on. Let her can keep what she stole. I don't care.”

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  60. No. And many on this blog don't hold Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky in high regard.

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  61. Aron has the world's support of the Gedoilei haPoskim to remarry if he should need it. You must take into consideration that once he does, he would like to have his daughter's visitation rights resolved in a peaceful and permanent manner, and be free to daven in any Shul with harchovas hada'as and menuchas hanefesh respectfully and rightfully so. I would like to see Posted letters from the Rabonim that anyone being metza'ar Aron, should be on notice to shape up and that all this shunning will boomerang as stated in Shulchan Aruch, not less oiver al Lo sonu ish es Amiso. Foremost, all those that retracted from this FIASCO must demonstrate Charoto al haovar and mekabel al lehabo, and ask for mechila Berabim, vehakol yavo al mekomo beShalom. Shabbat Shalom umnucha for us all, Amen.

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  62. * Is there a Nachson ben Aminodov in the House? *

    Dear Mr. Orlow,

    **** NAFSHI BISHEILOSI VEAMI BEVAKOSHOSI *****

    To the makas medina of Mendel Epstein vesiyato et al e.g. ORA vechol hameshorsov horshoim, possibly Rabbis of RCA and whoever they might be, can there be once and for all be brought a Class action Lawsuit for Racketeering, commonly referred to as the RICO Act or simply RICO that involves Conspiracy / Kidnappings, Extortions, Beatings, and other mafia tactics and acts performed as part of an ongoing criminal organization?

    After all, Epstein admitted that he is working around the Law and outside of the SA, has been paining Klall Yisrael and the time is ripe to put him and all away for good.

    The decades of damage and destruction inflicted on these victims is/was a menace to Society, are ready to testify against him. This call is for outside The New Jersey Lawsuit, that some are already canned for. This will put ORA permanently out of business for Harassment, Character Assassination etc. while aiding and abetting to Racketeering. As far as a menace for Yidden, a rosh verishon for Yored Lechayov not to mention all the other Issurim sheBatorah.

    *Es achay anochi mevakesh*

    Is there a Nachshon ben Aminodov in the House???

    Shoalim vedorshin 30 yom lifnei hachag, we need a thorough Pesach cleanup, not leaving one morsel of this Chametz.

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  63. Does halacha bar prosecution of criminal offenses...?

    The answer is no! Mahra"m miRottenburg has a Tshuva encouraging that a public menace should be reported to the authorities and be prosecuted according to Dina Demalchusei, The Law of the Land. That's exactly what happened to Mendel Epstein umeshorsov horshoim et al. More about this in my reply to Mr. Joseph Orlow in "Is there a Nachson ben Aminodov in the House"? further down in this blog

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  64. he did file a criminal complaint, regarding his being beaten on 9 av.

    now that we know who did it, we see the local police aren't interested in prosecuting.

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  65. right now, he has the baltimore bet din behind him.

    depositing a get in another bet din, will make the baltimore bet din drop his case.

    unless they give him permission to go to another bet din for the limited purpose of depositing a get. they robably wont give such permission. (though it might have a policy against depositing a get, like some batei don do, and might be amenable to designating another bet din for this purpose.)

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  66. yes, RMF said impossible.

    which is why he pressed and pressed her, till she admitted.

    i think it was resolved by retroactive cancelling an agent for a get. question is, she must leave the second husband, which i'm not sure she did.

    ReplyDelete
  67. You might be making a valid point here.

    What convinces you that the Baltimore B"D would oppose issuing a HMR (perhaps even arrange it themselves if not simply permit him to use another B"D - or is a B"D even necessary to compose a HMR?)

    Why do you think they'll require he deposit a Get altogether? Otherwise, perhaps they'll take the deposited Get themselves and agree to only give it to her after she comes into compliance with all past (and future) BBD rulings that she's violated.

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  68. Alas. I have tried. Just last week someone contacted me about making an organization to oppose ORA. Here's the rub: an organization requires a commitment from individuals to stay in regular contact with each other. To pick a leader and defer to him. To do, not just talk. I am willing to act in concordance with a larger group, but I haven't found too many others willing to. Certainly, there are individuals who do good things. The person who contacted me went to a meeting and by asking the right questions essentially shut down the meeting. But to make a sustained effort requires the above mentioned necessity to work like a military unit, with a hierarchy and with a schedule and with close communications.

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  69. *MI LAHASHEM ELAY*

    Thanks for your prompt reply. I firmly believe that Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn with R' Doniel's help you can swing it. You have over two decades of disenfranchised husbands that have much substance to contribute, together with all Gedoilei haPoskim's support to eradicate such a TZORA'AS MAMERES from amongst Klall Yisroel. This FIASCO of Biblical proportions will not go to rest in the forseeable future soon, and NO one would want these GOONS to strike again. This is an offense and high crimes against humanity veal Kol kedushas Beis Yisrael veKodsho - not only Bedinei Odom ubein chavero, ubein ish leshto, but also against the very fibers of Dinei Shamayim trampling all over Toras Moishe veDas Yisroel. Moshe Rabenu managed to recruit kol bnei Levi with the Decree of *Mi LaH' Elay* Vayeosfu eilov Kol Bnei Levi, ve.....ish es ochiv, veish es re'ehu, veish es krovo, vayipol... kishloshes alfei ish!

    These ORA SHARYA Goons have been doing a Gevaldig Chillul Hashem Berabim umechablim bakromim and needs to be dealt with accordingly Keshoresh Poreh Rosh vela'ano. The fish stinks from the Head, and we the people can start to demonstrate in front of the Fuhrer's house Jeremy Stern hayadua leshimtza uvchol asher Poneh bechol eis, from Shul to Shul, umi dechi el dechi 24/7 to be yored lechayov. YSV. Ki badovor asher Zodu, aleihem!!! Let him get a taste of his own medicine, veheim kolim me'eilehem. We the People can then commence a Class Action Lawsuit of Racketeering, Harassment, Kidnappings, beatings and whatnot, to sue the begunias out of them

    See http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/03/rabbi-schachters-letter-regarding-tamar.html

    This issue is nogea lechol Prat uPrat, MeOlam v'ead Olam, v'ead v'ead Bichlall. If this *Parua* was able to recruit reshoim leH'ERA for ORA, how much more should Klall Yisrael be able to compose Anshei Dor Yeshorim L'HEITIV with the Decree of *Mi LaH' Elay*.

    Why not start with getting Melitza letters starting from Rav Hagaon R' Moshe Shternbuch Shlit"a and other Gedoilei HaDor Uposkim that have already voiced this Nega Upega loud and clear, and as a start for an eis La'asos LaH' heferu Torasecha. I am sure R' D's Eidonsohn will be more than happy to help us in presenting it to them, having them respond in kind. On this world wide Forum Da'as Torah with up to 85,000 readers ovrei veshov mearba kanfos ho'oretz, there will be more than ample Tzivos Hashem helping out their battered brothers in times of need. Ha'acheichem yetzu laMilchama, ve'atem teshvu poh??? Bou Be'ezras H' Bagiborim, VaH' imach!!! Veim tirtzu, ein zu Agadah.

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  70. The difficulty is that many in the opposition is totally opaque. Words do not get through. So there is nothing else to do. Words are all we have.

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  71. Once you get the letters of support and Blessing from the Gedolim - Will travel. Velo olecho kol hamlachah ligmor. If you only just be a Catalyst having the concept conceived right here on this Blog, there will be someone to take over and bring it to fruition. If there is a Jeremy, surely there can be an Anti Jeremy with Hashem's support. NY is the HUB of the world for action. There are many good Yidden that have the means and are more than willing and able to support such a Noble cause. Sahadei Bamromim, the only reason ORA took off, is because there was $hochad going along with it, and not for any sympathy to self seclared fangunos. The ra bonim undertook the execution, having ORA, Epstein and Goon Squad supply the Fodder. They took 65K a pop, and the pizza pie was split in many ways to compensate all Rodfei $halmonim a slice in a hierarchical manner. They must be taught Balak and show them who is Tattele. If you live by the sword, you die by the sword. To pave the way, there are many good writer contributors right here on this Blog. IMHO

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  72. Do you think R' Dovid Eidensohn can organize such a group to keep churban haBayis in check? Maybe he has some ideas.

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  73. It's interesting you ask. Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn has been working for years to organize the opposition. Just this week he spoke at a meeting that was convened by an activist specifically to hear Rabbi Eidensohn address them on the Halachic aspects of divorce. Rabbi Eidensohn spoke about how women who will not uphold the structures of Kiddushin should not get married with Kiddushin. These women have an alternative, which is Pilegesh marriage. I would reference you to the www.torahhalacha.blogspot.com blog for details.

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  74. The idea of Pilegesh could be a fix pack before the facts. What I am asking if R' Dovid can get Key people together for and against what ORA is inflicting pain and destruction on Beis Yisrael. The seeds already have been sown. It is already in the NJ court System and some are also paying the price. BTW, who initiated that action, is it a class action or what??? As things are going on today, they import Golbergs from Israel Guns for hire. What is the status of that onging M vs. M along with the Willi BD's entangled in that FIASCO? Anybody.

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  75. These women don't care for Services as a Pilegesh, whether they go for a Marriage per se or go for the goodies that it can bring, either way they want to have the cake and bite into it too and still have it. Yaakov experienced the same problem, Eisav biting into his Jugular.

    Back to ORA
    Here is another WMD that will contra their efforts, and with words and their pictures. People that experience their asinine venom should be able to deposit all the info the perpetrator does with a picture to a WEBSITE called e.g. ORA SHARYA YSV etc. fighting fire with fire and words with words, she'ein kochom ela befiv.

    Have it posted over the INTERNET and all their deeds that they do, have other BLOGS posting updates, mass emailing and see how they like it. When their and their familiy's time come to shiduchim, let's see what flack it will leave. You can have anyone's imagination how far to take it. This doesn't take grandiose management, and could be a Tsunami, Hurricane, Earthquake, Volcano, Typhoon all in one of Biblical proportions, asher kamohu lo hoyo, veachrov lo yihye, just like the day after. If Jeremy can cause pain, how much more can the wrath of the masses from all over the world. Shelo yimotzei yodov veraglov beBeis haMidrash. Try this for a change. ty

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