The following incident was raised as a contradiction to Rav Moshe Feinstein’s view that when it is obvious (anan sahadi) that the convert did not sincerely accept doing mitzvos that the conversion is null and void. It is not necessarily a contradiction. (The details were taken from Dr. Menachem Finkelstein’s Conversion Halacha and Practice page 621-626)
In Cairo 1908, a 22 year old Muslim desperately wanted to marry a certain beautiful Jewish woman . She refused unless he converted first. He gave a request in writing to the beis din. There was hatafas dam bris, and mikve as well as acceptance of doing mitzvos.
However immediately after the conversion he lived as a complete Muslim. Shortly after the conversion the couple married - with people upset since no one was aware of the conversion. The man then published an article in the paper stating.
since there are those who suspect that he converted and became a Jew and as such married a Jewess... but this is unthinkable and he would never do such a thing. He is a Muslim from birth and that each retained their religion when they married.
Immediately afterwards the following was established:
1) He had used a false name in his application to beis din
2) .His supporting document that he submitted to the beis din was forged and his references were not aware of what was stated in the document
3) He had revealed to two Jews that he was going through the conversion “to satisfy his desires with this beautiful women who had driven him mad” These two Jews had remained silent because they had been bribed.
4) After the wedding he continued to live amongst the Moslems as one of them. The couple had a son who he refused to allow to be circumcised and he was given the name of Muhammed. At this point the couple separated and the woman fled from her husband.
Two Egyptians rabbis who were consulted thought it possible to permit the woman to remarry without a get on the grounds that the conversion was worthless and thus there was no marriage. Rabbi Mas’ud Ben Shimon said, “If he had come in good faith at the time of the acceptance of the conversion without any deception, stratagems, and falsity then if he had reverted back to his previous religion he would still be considered a true convert. But since this was not the case since all was falsehood and deceit. Rabbi Aaron Cohen agreed with his reasoning that there was no conversion and thus no marriage and thus no need for a divorce.
While these two were waiting for approval by higher level rabbis, the husband was ordered by the kadi to divorce his wife in accordance with Islamic law and the government ordered him to pay his wife her kesubah.
The husband approached Rabbi Ben Shimon for help in avoiding paying the money. The rabbi told him to authorize him to give his wife a Get which Rabbi Ben Shimon and Rabbi Cohen promptly did.
The next question was the woman wanted to remarry and asked for a divorce certificate. The two rabbis were in a quandary because of the many doubts regarding this Get “ the likes of which might never have been” Therefore they decided to ask Rav Kook what to do. They sent him their rulings stating that the woman could remarry without a Get as well as a description of the Get they had given.
Rav Kook agreed to the appropriateness of asking for a Get. However he disagreed that the conversion was null due to fraud. He said that the acceptance of mitzvos was done properly. It didn’t matter what the man was thinking. Furthermore he saw no evidence that the man had intended to deceive or that he did not sincerely want to be a Jew. Rav Kook said the only problematic issue in the case was solely that he had converted for the sake of marriage - however bedieved the conversion was valid. Thus Rav Kook ruled that the conversion was good and the man had subsequently become a backsliding convert and that the Get was good.
The woman remarried on the basis of the Get and the conversion was not declared null and void – contrary to the written views of the first two rabbis. It seems that the first two wrote their views when they determined that the man would not give his wife a Get. In contrast Rav Kook wrote his views after the Get had been given.
It seems that there are three views in the literature. 1) Poskim who say that anyone who goes through the ceremony and declares before beis din that he will do the mitzvos, and has mila and tevila – even if subsequently he doesn’t keep anything is still a Jew. 2) There are others who say if it is obvious from the actions and statements that he never intended to be a religious Jew and was clearly insincere the conversion was never valid. 3) Finally there is a view that conversion is conditional on subsequently observing the mitzvos. If this condition is not met then the conversion is invalid.
I know sources for the first two views. What sources are there for the third view?
ReplyDeletePosition 1 seems to be the only way to go.
ReplyDeleteThus Rav Moshe's view is the same as the first two rabbonim who declared that the conversion wasn't valid.
ReplyDeleteYes, that was the story. Not sure why I thought it was in Yugoslavia but in 1980 Egypt was under Ottoman control so close!
ReplyDelete(1) should be clarified that the sincerity of the convert is what convinces the Beis Din at the moment they approve the conversion. (2) should be clarified as to the time after the conversion the backsliding appears. If a guy leaves the mikveh and drives to McDonald's to "celebrate",that's one thing but if, a few years later as a result of reading blogs he's disillusioned and not shomer Shabbos but still identifies as a Jew, that should be another. (3) also should be clarified. Imagine a beis din converting someone on the assumption that "observing the mitzvos" means wearing a black hat and suit to davening and then they catch the guy in - gasp! - a knitted kippah and untucked blue shirt at mincha. Is that evidence of not keeping the mitzvos?
What kind of Beis Din converts someone for marriage, when the Shulchan Aruch explicitly states that you're supposed to thoroughly investigate wheter he's converting for marriage in the first place?
ReplyDeletegood question - read Dr. Finkleman's book
ReplyDeletesee Haggahos Mordechai (Yevamos chapter 4 paragraph 110).
ReplyDeleteeven though it ruled as normative halacha that they are all complete converts, one can sya that this is so only afterwards when we see that they follow the straight and narrow even though initially they did it for the sake of matrimony...
it is in Dr. Finklemans Conversion page 591-606
#2 appears to be the normative psak amongst the majority of gedolei poskim.
ReplyDeleteHaskell Lookstein's beth din.
ReplyDeleteBut then again, he also goes to church services when the president is being inaugurated. Even the RCA condemned him for that.
Get over it. Its done all the time.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I remember (I read it 5-6 years ago) it would not be evidence of keeping the mitzvos. Mitzvos means just that, not customs or chumros.
ReplyDelete“1) Poskim who say that anyone who goes through the ceremony and declares before beis din that he will do the mitzvos, and has mila and tevila – even if subsequently he doesn’t keep anything is still a Jew.”
ReplyDeleteThis is position of the Tanaim. I base this on
תלמוד בבלי מסכת בכורות דף ל עמוד ב
וכהן שבא לקבל דברי כהונה חוץ מדבר אחד - אין מקבלין אותו, שנאמר המקריב את דם השלמים וגו' העבודה המסורה לבני אהרן - כל כהן שאינו מודה בה אין לו חלק בכהונה.
ויקרא פרק ז פסוק לג
הַמַּקְרִיב אֶת דַּם הַשְּׁלָמִים וְאֶת הַחֵלֶב מִבְּנֵי אַהֲרֹן לוֹ תִהְיֶה שׁוֹק הַיָּמִין לְמָנָה:
See,
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/14551
“He also made the appointment to the high priesthood dependent on his favor and during his reign dismissed and appointed high priests arbitrarily.”
These high priests went through the ceremony. The Tanaim knew that these high priests were insincere and yet accepted them. This is similar to Rabbi Kook ruling, בדיעבד to accept anyone who goes through the ceremony as a Jew.
Some parents consider their children OTD for that. Actually throw these children out of the house.
ReplyDeletePashtus in the Rambam seems to be that way. He uses a loshon of tolin ad sheyisbarer tzidkaso or something like that. Don't have in front of me now.
ReplyDeleteתנו רבנן, נעמן גר תושב היה נבוזראדן, גר צדק היה מבני בניו של סיסרא למדו תורה בירושלים, מבני בניו של סנחריב לימדו תורה ברבים, ומאן נינהו שמעיה ואבטליון, מבני בניו של המן למדו תורה בבני ברק (סנהדרין צו ע"ב. וע"ע גיטין נז ע"ב).
ReplyDeleteThe difference between Cicero's or Haman's descendants and Ivanka Trump is that Ivanka Trump is anti-Israel, she's married to a Kushner, who is anti-Israel, and her father, who is running for President, is more anti-Israel than Hillary Clinton.
You'd have to be out of your mind to convert such a woman.
One major difference between many of the cases R. Moshe dealt with and this case was the existence of the Reform and Conservative movements in America. In America you had a whole group of Jews who claimed that a deviant, indeed heretical, philosophy, constitutes "Judaism." The vast majority of Jews in America, including the majority of Reform and Conservative Jews, did not (and do not) keep mitzvos or believe in the 13 ikkarim. And this is institutionalized in "movements" to which belong hundreds of synagogues and several institutions of higher learning.
ReplyDeleteSo if someone converted to "Reform Judaism," it is pretty obvious that, at most, he was accepting on himself to live as a Reform Jew -- which is not kabolas ol mitzvos.
In contrast, the Jewish community in Cairo 1908 was, at least nominally, observant, and being "Jewish" had a single meaning to both Jews and non-Jews.
IIRC, R. Herzog had a teshuvah along these lines that laid out the difference pretty starkly.
Get over it? Really?
ReplyDeleteThe lack of meaning of the convert saying he would keep the mitzvos was a result from the fact that Jews were no longer forced to live in a homogenous community of observant Jews from the early 1800's
ReplyDeletesee Heichal Yitzchok EH 1 20:6; 21:3
It also appears In Rav Breisch Chelkas Yaakov 1:14
See also Chilkas Yaakov 1:13
And I think the first one to state this was Beis Yitzchok Y.D. 2:100:9
What does anti- Israel mean? I assume you would reject all of Satmar as beeing legitimate Jews?
ReplyDeleteI'm stating reality. Just like a cohen has no problem marrying a gerusha divorce nowadays.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, there aré halachically valid reasons for converting even though we know its for marriage. (Tropper was another story.)
It means someone who has promised to push for a "deal" between Israel and her enemies a là
ReplyDeleteJimmy Carter. Both Trump and Clinton have this same agenda. Clinton's health is poor. Trump will pursue it with vigor.
Please see this video:
https://youtu.be/U7jMxa3GTX4
Now, with regard to Kushner, the Kushners are anti-Israel Jewish billionaires who support the Leftist agenda. I wonder who Trump's geoing to take advice from regarding Israel if he G-D forbid becomes President.
As for Satmar -- Satmar is a reproductive cult. People join cults for various reasons... It's not always to the detriment of said person, unless the cult becomes destructive. I was born into Lubavitch (Though my father was not Lubavitch in his youth), and there are parts of Lubavitch which border on being a destructive cult, there are some parts of Lubavitch which are genuinely doing good, and there are some parts which are no better than the modern orthodox. My brother-in-law is a good example. The point is that you can't judge the individual as the group.
Eric Hoffer made an astute observation:
"Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket."
There's no question that Lubavitch is in the process of degenerating into a racket. The question is, post WWII, was Satmar ever legitimate in the first place, or were they always just a reproductive cult rooted in collectivism, hocking their "mehadrin-min-hamehadrin" wares.
Anti-Israel means criticizing the government of Israel vis a vis the Palestinians, in any way, shape, or form. If you are accused of this you become instantly a bad person whose words no longer have any credibility. So be careful now, never criticize the government of Israel for anything they do with regard to military policy or the Arabs. Doesn't matter if you have good arguments or even facts. You must never, ever criticize the State.
ReplyDeleteplease take this nonsense someplace else
ReplyDeleteHow about a deal between Israel and Egypt, the kind that produced peace for 40 years and counting? Or the one with Jordan?
ReplyDeleteA cohen has no problem marrying a gerusha? What do you mean by that?
ReplyDeleteYou mean the one where in exchange for a piece of paper we had to give away more than three quarters of our country?
ReplyDeleteI wish you well.
ReplyDeletePlenty of rabbonim, MO and charedi have no problem doing it. Cohen -- gerusha
ReplyDelete, or giyur -- marriage.
That's certainly true. But the situation in America went a step beyond. In Europe after the early 19th century, a person could be part of the wide community, call himself a Jew, and not keep mitzvos. So he could be semi-assimilated, and felt no pressure to keep mitzvos.
ReplyDeleteBut in America, you had Reform and Conservative groups that were established as alternative, non-halakhic sects. I supposed you also had that to some extent in Germany, where Reform was often the established (meaning official) Jewish community.
In that situation, a person who is being megayer by a heterodox beis din with heterodox "Rabbis" is likely intent on accepting that group's beliefs and theology. If the Conservative "rabbi" who is megayer him drives to shul, why shouldn't he?
Really? I have never heard of anyone allowing that. That seems to me to be a pretty heavy slander (albeit against unnamed rabbonim). I also know divorced Cohanim that have a very difficult time remarrying because they can only date non-divorced women.
ReplyDeleteI think the Rambam means the exact opposite. The actual phrase is וְחוֹשְׁשִׁין לוֹ עַד שֶׁיִּתְבָּאֵר צִדְקוּתוֹ. And immediately the Rambam writes וַאֲפִלּוּ חָזַר וְעָבַד עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה הֲרֵי הוּא כְּיִשְׂרָאֵל מוּמָר שֶׁקִּדּוּשָׁיו קִדּוּשִׁין. וּמִצְוָה לְהַחֲזִיר אֲבֵדָתוֹ מֵאַחַר שֶׁטָּבַל נַעֲשָׂה כְּיִשְׂרָאֵל. וּלְפִיכָךְ קִיְּמוּ שִׁמְשׁוֹן וּשְׁלֹמֹה נְשׁוֹתֵיהֶן וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁנִּגְלָה סוֹדָן.
ReplyDeleteAnd the Rambam says this while specifically discussing people who are megayer for the wrong reasons (e.g. for marriage or money). It seems like the Rambam holds like the first view view, that we don't even say "anan sehadi" and we certainly don't say איגלאי מילתא למפרע.
So what then does the Rambam mean by וְחוֹשְׁשִׁין לוֹ עַד שֶׁיִּתְבָּאֵר צִדְקוּתוֹ? I think he means as follows: The Rambam had written earlier that those that are only megayer for marriage, money, or the like אֵינוֹ מִגֵּרֵי הַצֶּדֶק. It seems to me that according to the Rambam, the mitzvah to be mekarev and love a ger only applies to a "ger tzedek" but not a ger who is not "tzedek." Now he is being mechadesh that when a person comes to be megayer and from the circumstances it appears that they are only doing so to get married, we don't presume that they a sincere and therefore have to treat them like a ger tzedek (i.e. love them), but we also don't push them away. Rather they are in a limbo until we can determine how they should be treated. But either way, they are still Jewish.
Where do we see that? The famous Langer case (with Goren in Eretz Yisroel) seems to point otherwise. ...
ReplyDeleteWe see as such in the famous psak by Dayan HaRav Sherman shlita in the insincere mass Russian conversions by Druckman.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Goren, aside from his openly political motivations that he blatantly campaigned on promising to "fix" those mamzers while he was running for chief rabbi, and before he even won that position and assumed the case, he lied about the first husband. The first husband was a sincere convert who kept Shabbos and tefila btzibbur for many decades after his geirus.
Any significantly respectable dissenters from Rav Sherman's p'sak?
ReplyDeleteRav Sherman's psak is normative halacha.
ReplyDeleteInteresting pshat. You could be right, but unusual to make mitzva of ahavas hager talui on a tnai, but etzem being Jewish not talui. I have to reread perek, hopefully will have time soon.
ReplyDeleteThe earliest source I know of is Rav Shlomo Klugur in the case of a Jew who was civilly married to a non-Jewish woman (IIRC he had been a soldier in the French Army under Napoleon, and she was a war bride) where he points out that since they are able to remain together based on the civil marriage and the conversion is for the sake of being able to rejoin (in his case) his family and the Jewish community, that is called "for the sake of heaven". Melamed L'Hoe'il rules similarly, among others. How much more so in our day where it is socially acceptable in much of society to cohabitate without any sort of marriage. R. Chaim Ozer has a somewhat similar although not identical argument following the 1904 relaxation of the prohibition against conversion in the Russian Empire.
ReplyDeleteNo problem going against a lav d'orita? Or are these cases where they are deemed not to be Cohanim?
ReplyDeletehttps://etzion.org.il/en/halakha/yoreh-deah/topics-yoreh-deah/nullification-conversion
ReplyDeleteNice summary of different interpretations of the Rambam on the matter
Nope!
ReplyDeleteit is a biased summary