Thursday, September 22, 2016

Beis Din says "To do anything which will save the Aguna" - Even murder?

This letter was found on the ORA website. . Not sure what this has to do with halacha. It seems to be a heter to do anything to the husband until he gives a Get - which would seem to include physical violence or murder.







72 comments :

  1. Are there any legitimate Botei Din where the it is not the dayonim, but the secretary who signs off on their rulings?

    This "beis din" has long history of being in the tank for shmiel fried, and doing whatever Shmiel would like him to do. This beis avlah is located in Williamsburg, but curiously enough, many of their letters would be mailed from Boro Park. Their overnight letters - always designed to arrive on Friday - would be mailed out from the mail store that's closest to Shmiel Fried - who resides in BP.

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  2. Is this a recognized or respected beis din of some sort?

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  3. " ... bedinei Yisrael ubedineihem... bechol ofan shehu". Isn't lo Tirtzoch hen min haTorah, vehen bedinei Bnei Noach, vehen bedinei demalchussa ossur. Murder inc. all over again

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  4. Masri is the guy who was the subject of the recent arrests

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  5. Can you read? It says "to do what is within her power in accordance with Jewish and secular law."

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  6. If the letter was written last week just after Satmar story maybe. It was written years ago and as lethal as a woman telling her husband to do all he can to get fresh challos.

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  7. Politically IncorrectSeptember 22, 2016 at 3:05 PM

    This one says only al pi din ... (with a heter arkaos). This Williamsburg Bais Din isn't the ORA type. ..

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  8. What do you know of the beis din?

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  9. lets try this, "Therefore this letter is a severe warning that if we don't hear a response that is acceptable according to the view of the beis din within 8 days - your wife will be authorized to do all that which is in her power according to the laws of Israel and their laws - to force you to fulfill the words of the psak mentioned above - in any manner possible.

    It doesn't say that she is restricted - but "she can employ any technique which is available either by Torah Torah or secular law or any other manner that works"

    You are interpreting the Jewish and secular law as restrictions - not suggestions of possibilities. Otherwise they should have said "you can do anything that works as long as it doesn't violate either secular law or Torah law..

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  10. Respectfully disagree. Letters went out in the past urging people to persuade a husband to give a Get, the husband was attacked in his mother-in-law's driveway in a fashion that could be characterized as "muderous" (falls, head hits pavement leading to wound, attack continues), and not a word of clarification from the self-same Batei Din that a line had been crossed.

    Plastic bags over the head, beating to unconsciousness, etc as related in other cases all indicate that those forcing Gittin were not overly concerned about the life of the husband. As noted, the silence, aside from sources like this blog, indicates acquiescence.

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  11. Where did you hear that what you just described happened to this husband?

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  12. I am interpreting it as you surmised, and I think that to be medakdek as you are is overdoing it. I understand the phrase "in any manner" to be based on the previous line of "in accordance with Jewish and secular law." I don't understand your reading, as if they are in fact permitting her to do anything, even murder, then the phrase "in accordance with Jewish and secular law" is irrelevant.

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  13. Wouldn't murder be against the laws of Israel?

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  14. Nice try, but nah, the intentions are clear.

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  15. Are there any legitimate Botei Din where the it is not the dayonim, but the secretary who signs off on their rulings?
    This "beis din" has long history of being in the tank for shmiel fried, and doing whatever Shmiel would like him to do. This beis avlah is located in Williamsburg, but curiously enough, many of their letters would be mailed from Boro Park. Their overnight letters - always designed to arrive on Friday - would be mailed out from the mail store that's closest to Shmiel Fried - who resides in BP.
    Shmiel Fried, who is ambidextrous, is rumored to be an excellent forger. It is rumored that he has forged many documents in his long career of corruption. However, the mailings he sends from this "beis din" were written in his natural handwriting. It is possible that Erenthal is just too busy to do the mailings himself, so he sends it to Boro Park to be done by Fried, who must have more time on his hands. Of course, other possibilities also exist...

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  16. Nothing as healthy as a bit of sunlight.

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  17. They're not the ORA type; they're the for-sale-to-the-highest-bidder type.

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  18. I read it simply as a series of suggestions 1) try following Jewish law if that works fine if not 2 ) try secular law if that works fine if not do what you have to do to force him to give a get - in any manner that works.

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  19. Did you miss it? Some goons were arrested for conspiring to murder this guy.

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  20. This letter stinks to high heavens. It states that 'according to her words and according to the proofs she brought before bais din etc.' That means that they didn't even hear from him at all! It also mentions a letter from a rov who according to this letter has been given the power of arbitration. But besides for the fact that it doesn't state that the signed arbitration agreement has been seen by this bais din, which indicates that it has not been, which means that this is her side of the story only, but even if it were determined to be so, this bais din would still have to hear from him before deciding to enforce a letter which they have received from one side, because things are often(usually) taken out of context, and because both sides must be heard and allowed to present their evidence. And also apparently the rav who wrote that letter, if he is a reputable bais din he would know how to follow up based on the laws of arbitration so why is this bais din getting involved? etc.etc.etc. So this letter is a shame and a disgrace.

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  21. It's not either/or. It is both suggestions of possibilities and restrictions. Everything permitted within the bounds of law, whether halachic or secular.

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  22. This seems to be a real agunah.

    http://www.10yearsaginah.com/

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  23. I can smell it here all the way from Denmark. Look at the fax dates on top going back to August of 2009, where they gave him 8 days to appear, followed by the second fax the immediate following day. They then ask for anyone that could intervene which would be something that this BD couldn't, wouldn't dare, or otherwise. What then is meant bedinei yisroel ubedineihem? It's a Kosher chazer fissel, as if Epstein tactics are legit bedinin elu. I see springing up Husband's rights orgs all over the place. Mark my words, they will have to make Ezra Towns a/k/a mamzer towns for all the fake Gittins having etrogim children. When these husbands will do kol ma shebeyecholtom for these enablers hiding behind Bible Codes, it ain't gonna be pretty. Eicho hoyso lezona kiryo ne'emono. feds olecho, rabiners - and going strong. Long live the f-fe-fed- feds. Seems they learnt nothing from mr. Prodstein bnei odom yoshvei choshech, meachoirei horei choshech, yoshvei sesser, anshei bliyaal ubnei avlo, pochzim vereikim rodfei bnei Yisroel vachrei shalmoinim. Rosho, lomo sakeh reacho?

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  24. I was referring to Joe's comment about the husband being attacked in the driveway, bags over his head, etc.

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  25. Loud and clear, crystal clear. Like the guy asking for a hechsher on his cheeses from a rav pointing a gun which happened on Parshat Bo, an offer he couldn't refuse. He then wrote in Bible code targum loshon for mosneichem yehe chagurim. ... bla bla bla leseder *Chartzeichon yehon assurin* = Thus cheese is Assur. True story.

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  26. This beis avlah is in the tank for Shmiel Fried and has done this sort of stuff many, many times.

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  27. ... and waterboarding, and the pics of Avrumi Rubin, etc vechulhu, vekoheino vekoheino. YMV.
    One of these days, this Golem will arise and Kom al Yotzro and do unto them what is hated unto themselves

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  28. I also read that he is unconcsious, and half way there. vetzorich biur if this was in the plan.

    Ha Ha, this is much bigger then we yet know, a mayim she'ein lohem sof. However, Plishtim olecho, Shimshon. Goons & rabiners, feds olecho, tapes, video's, recordings and all, just like with the child molestations. This will end once and for all. Like Prodstein et al, ken yovdu.

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  29. Google can only cough up an address with a tel#, no other description who the operators beilum shem umakeh beseser might be. Seems like a Boiler room operation or a Kangaroo court.

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  30. ROFL! Did you read the Bible code on it? It's between the lines and the handwriting on the wall!!! When you see such R' Akiva Eiger quotes followed by beatings you know. When it can move a five Ton Bull, he would know. Elo im ken sheTo'o behedye, bla bla bla....
    Now that the feds are on it, THEY will know, according to umaklo yagid lo!!!

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  31. This little "beis din" or beis avlah also lies about what the rabbi with whom the husband and wife had signed an arbitration agreement said. They write that he paskened, when that is not what happened. He wrote that it is a very good idea, but that he is not a dayan, does not know the halacha and that he is not giving any sort of psak. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6a8149ee1827dd5a92e7ce84d3c1531d1e6dc7020fe2cf7498e6e1daf798cfe1.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ffc2bdbed3716053490ab2059d1d02981338371850515362a8615a65ce474972.jpg

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  32. Only if they get caught, same for Dina demalchusse. Else, you do what you gotta do with a ski mask *bechol ofen shehu*

    Targum shivim

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  33. If I may, with a Heter from BAD aka OR RA meah Rabiners in accordance with the interpretation of R' Akiva Eigers Psak, koifin oso ad sheteitze nishmoso, with maklos, betzabim, beakravim ubeprodim and baseball bats, whichever comes first.

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  34. Why did he add the last three words of bechol ofen shehue - in any which way? While it may be possible to find a way and opening to give them some benefit of doubt, their long reputation is clear that they do not have a reputation of beineni or tzadik. They earned the bad reputation that they have.

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  35. A Phantom BD, like Epstein & Farkosh & Mill Basin et al operasnd. It's a backroom boiler operation, with faceless Kangaroos wearing hoods from the Inquisition like Torquemada.

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  36. They're going to need to do a lot of fundraising for the so-called "pidyon shvuyim fund". Plotting a murder, and trying to get away with it, comes with a very steep price tag!

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  37. FedupwithcorruprabbisSeptember 22, 2016 at 9:09 PM

    Ora are a bunch of cowards. They took mr.Masri's name off their recalcitrant husband's list because they are afraid of being implicated in his recent attempted murder plot. They did the same after Mendel Epstein's arrest. they put out a letterdistancing themselves from Epstein. But we all know that they work in tandem. I look forward for the day Jeremy Stern is arrested and Ora is shut down.

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  38. This seems more like a bail out fund for the kesher koshrim. She has plenty money for hire......

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  39. Let's try this: the wording implies that only something halachic and (/or) legal may be implemented, but their *actions* have spoken louder.....(if that Bais Din or rov were the ones who attempted those actions. .....)

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  40. I'm not addressing their reputation, only what the letter actually says. B'chol ofen shehu does not override the limitations clearly stated. It simply means "no holds barred" but still within the law.

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  41. Right here on this blog. The codeword for the *veorav lo vekom olov attack* was , when the Shvigger told the little daughter to give the father a Kiss, mind you on Tisha BeAV oy a churban. Rachmone Lesheizvei, in front of a young child. Koheino vekoheino hosifu bnei avlo. YSV

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  42. Can't read those images. I don't understand your comment. Which beis din is "little" and why? And who didn't pasken but only gave a "good idea" (and where does it indicate that)?

    Also, if you know, why did the husband reject the good idea (whatever that suggestion was)?

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  43. Where did you see this timeline of 8 days followed by a fax the next day?

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  44. I just saw it on ORA's website a day and a half ago. They took it down within the last 24 hours?

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  45. Are talking about this new Satmar case that just came into the news in the last month or about an older divorce dispute regarding the beating of the husband? I didn't see any news from the FBI or journalists that the Satmar husband was beaten.

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  46. No holds barred is a contradiction to pesky limitations that halacha and law imposes. You can be dan l'kaf zechus, but that is only for tzadikim and beinonim...

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  47. “It seems to be a heter to do anything to the husband until he gives a Get - which would seem to include physical violence or murder.”
    Yes. Reading Pacer on Mendel Epstein et al and on Shimen Liebowitz --- clearly, these rabbis, and their admirers and supporters who acquiesce to their crimes, are not put off by physical violence and murder!! Astounding! Aaron because of his horror of physical violence and murder, did not resist the gold calf:
    Sanhedrin 7a:
    “A difference of opinion is expressed by R. Tanhum b. Hanilai, who says that the verse quoted [“The wicked crows about his unbridled lusts; the grasping man reviles and scorns the Lord.” (Psalms 10:3).] refers only to the story of the golden calf, as it is written: “When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron announced: Tomorrow shall be a festival of the Lord!” (Exodus 32: 5). What did he actually see? — R. Benjamin b. Japhet says, reporting R. Eleazar: He saw Hur lying slain before him and said [to himself]: If I do not obey them, they will now do unto me as they did unto Hur, and so will be fulfilled [the fear of] the prophet, “See, O Lord, and behold, To whom You have done this! Alas, women eat their own fruit, Their new-born babes! Alas, priest and prophet are slain In the Sanctuary of the Lord!” (Lamentations 2:20). Shall the Priest and the Prophet be slain in the Sanctuary of God? and they will never find forgiveness. Better let them worship the golden calf, for which offence they may yet find forgiveness through repentance. [He thus made a compromise, and this compromise is denounced by the Psalmist.]”
    R. Tanhum b. Hanilai says that Aaron felt that the mob would do physical violence and might kill him as they killed Hur, if Aaron resisted. Do husbands, today, have to fear the violent feminists and their supporters? “Like a madman scattering deadly firebrands, arrows,” (Proverbs 26:18).

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  48. Why can't you read those images? Do you not understand tha language it was written in? Do you need a pair of glasses? Is there a problem with the device you are using?

    All your other sincere questions are self-explanatory.
    Do you relate to this image? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/47427df18cd6ab1c104b2b5ee70e4d0a79ecaf5f2cbc3d7be054d9f6c047c253.jpg

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  49. You didn't? Oh my.

    Is this you? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/47427df18cd6ab1c104b2b5ee70e4d0a79ecaf5f2cbc3d7be054d9f6c047c253.jpg

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  50. Ehud clarified my comment already. I'll just add that I was not referring to any recent case. Rather, letters have been circulating for years from other Batei Din -- and never retracted -- urging people to do their all to persuade a husband to give a Get. After he was attacked in a way that an outside observer could characterize as "murderous", there was no attempt by the letter writers to draw any distinction between, say, talking to the husband, as opposed to, say, killing him.

    This letter could be understood in that context.

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  51. I do not think that your reading of the letter is the only logical reading. Saying that someone should do whatever is possible to help someone is not necessarily encouraging people to do things that are illegal and immoral (beating the husband would obviously be both of those). In light of the recent publicity surrounding the Epstein case, etc. I think it would be prudent for dayanim to be more precise in their wording. Of course, if the ambiguity is intentional and is intended to be a wink, wink to encourage people to use violence then that is a very different story, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion solely from the wording of these letters.

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  52. True, but I don't believe the context exists to insinuate that this bais din was soliciting murder, even if you put a question mark at the end of your header.

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  53. Beating (and murder, probably) is not immoral (and possibly not illegal) to ORA.

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  54. In referrence to previous case of AF as Joe already clarified

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  55. First letter faxed on the 26 of Aug 2009 , second on the 27 of Aug 2009.

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  56. All these letters have following patterns of bloody beatings i.e. A Rubin (see pics), and AF etc. etc. etc. where these rabiners never retracted or said lo zu hederech. They even clarified with baseball bats, and the proud ProdFather boasting mafia tactics of if the victim expired, take and turn a right. They worked in cahoots. We all know, the feds also know, as od for gantz Brod. Listen to the video tapes. Sting #1 didn't do the trick, here is sting # 2, where they conspired staright for the Jugular. This is the beginning of the end to this chicanery. feds olecho, rabiners. vehoelokim ino leyodo!!! This is the emes, the whole Emes, and nothing but the Emes. When this Fiasco will be through, it ain't gonna be pretty. They will sing so nicely like the Leviyim beshirom uvzimrom. It's for real and for life!

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  57. If you hear something, say something. In this current sting, they heard something and do more than something. Life bela"az!!!

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  58. The same old pattern as when TAMAR IS FREE. Free my foot. The wrath all the world's Poskim are after her. R' Elyashiv wrote a letter that most Gittinin in USA are psulim aka Get meusse, specifically mendele Shmaysser rotting away now in jail. Look at it now, it's all murder inc. written on the wall.

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  59. Like bnei binyomin, codeword Sibolet. The mother told AF's daughter to go back and give the father a Kiss. The kiss was liek the kiss of death when the goons jumped him on Tisha ba'av. Theese hoods were hiding in the driveway and waiting for Aron returning his little daughter. May Hashem be mekayem for them all, ka'asher zomam laasos.

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  60. Like Kings droshes of peacful demonstartions, all hell broke loose in the following

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  61. Just like to add, that BAD BD interpreted the R' Akiva Eiger with a specific description of a Shifcha that was mutar till now, and the Odon can now beat him to death. Codewords for lechol man deboie lemeida.

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  62. The first two words of your headline are extrenuos. ORA's policy does not require a betdin for its action.

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  64. I seem to remember that this story happened with the "Chida" (Rabbi Chaim Yosef David Azulai).

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  65. Vihyisem nekiyim M'H' is called for to clarify, and send an open lettter to the woman of interest along with posters kedei lehotzi miliban shel Tzedukim, that Kidnapping and Murder is not an option. Why is this BD quiet now? Lo eis lachshois. Umideshoskei, shma minah dekonichei lei.

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  66. You didn't because the fbi was in on it from moment one and inervened. It is enough ka'asher zomam la'asos velo ka'asher osso aka *STING* bela'az. in the ProdEpstein Sting, the nonexisting husband wasn't beaten either.

    It would be wise to let the low level goons sing and have the rabiners of the upper echelons feel the heat and pay the price. They are the instigators umatir bessoron shel Yisrael. Put 'em away for good, and thusly peacce will reign.

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  67. None of these are low level, unless you're discussing their spiritual level. Yiddel Gruber has been running a corrupt beis din for many, many years. He is Shmiel Fried's mentor and teacher. (Fried at least has the redeeming factor that he once was honest. That was 30 years ago.) Erenthal is his son-in-law. Gruber resides at the address listed on the above letters at 148 Penn St.

    I'm sure that there are still enough singers to go around.

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  68. Thank you. Lock up all the intergrubers and throw away the key. This time the feds have ample stuff to go by. If needed, they will be forced to sing, unless they will bite off their thumbs, Im eshkochech yerushalayim, tishkach Yemini. All this is hashgacha protis of vehoElokim ino leyodo. No, they do not own the world, Torah rules and not those rodfei shalmonim umgalei ponim batorah shelo kehalacha, eidus zommemim, makei nefesh bagolu ubasoser shemoinin es bnei Yisroel. Let's see now if they can outsmart kivyachol haKodosh Boruch hu. Can you tell us more about the ping pong players, mi vomi haholchim? This is humongous, much more than I contemplated. Scribd mentions many times, *Known and unknown*. Lot's of tishn un benk un shirayim in the can over Yom tov, rofl, vesha'ar kol yemos hashono. If it wouldn't be so sad, it wouldn't have been so funny.

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  69. Politically IncorrectSeptember 28, 2016 at 1:38 AM

    Not much, one dayan there was going to help me be mashlish a get. They seemed serious about sending a siruv, if need be. He seemed sympathetic and straight, didn't have more experiences with them......

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