Nebach. One question they should raise is: If Chazal refer to "baseless" hatred, then it seems that there is some hatred which is allowed (encouraged!) and not baseless. What do the esteemed Rabbis think that this refers to? (They can bring a Gemara Pesachim if they get stuck - see there, 113b).
O.K. Now I have checked up on this Haim Ovadia fellow - there are a bunch of his essays here:
http://www.jewishjournal.com/about/author/1097/
Unfortunately, he is not a Torah Jew. He is not "frum". Whether he is Orthodox or not is a different question, and depends on the definition of Orthodox, which is currently in flux and losing most of its meaning.
Here's one example of what he says (http://www.jewishjournal.com/opinion/article/its_time_to_reopen_dialogue_with_islam_20080111):
When we speak about religion, the problem of the world today is not Islam but rather religious fanatics. As of today, most of them are Muslims, but to a certain extent it is the same brand of religious zeal that in our country, a country that heralds the separation of church and state, is holding back stem cell research, fights pro-choice supporters and discriminates against gays and lesbians.
To see a Sephardi Rabbi who is an Apikoros is very upsetting. We need Mashiach now!
I am not sure what in the paragraph you quoted gives you the impression that he is not "frum" let alone an apikoros. As someone who knows Rabbi Ovadia personally, I can say that you are wrong.
What do you define as a Torah Jew? Does someone have to understand the Torah just as you do? There have been many traditions within Torah Judaism, and he is representing a path which has been shoved under the rug for the last few decades, but it is Torah no less than your Torah
Even the premise of r ovadia's speech is wrong. There are a number of conservative sephardic congregations. Even though conservative movement has no concept of ashkenaz vs sephardic tfillah (or even customs.)
What about his premise that anyone who opposes his social agenda is a religious zealot. The quote makes it sound like he opposes free speech and democratic rights for anyone who disgrees with him. How's THAT for an example of religious zealotry!
Rabbi Ovadia is the new Rabbi of Magen David Sephardic Congregation.
Just curious, was the previous rabbi an OO like him? Also, is YCT paying the first years of his salary? If the precious rabbi wasn't OO did the congregation switch to OO because it's easier on the pocketbook?
go peddle your lies elsewhere. the quote was clear.
a country that heralds the separation of church and state, is holding back stem cell research, fights pro-choice supporters and discriminates against gays and lesbians.
If a "rabbi" is pro choice and pro gay rights he is not frum or orthodox. He is an apikores, and it sounds like you are one as well.
Max - it's a pity that you're too nuanced and sophisticated to recognise the truth when it hits you smack in the face. Either that or you are being disingenuous. Either way, I have met so many people who write like you do, that it's frankly boring to continue this conversation. That task must fall upon others.
Washington Hebrew Congregation is Reform. Rabbi Shankman is not a Maharat. Cong. Har Shalom is Conservative. Beth Shalom Congregation and Talmud Torah can be characterized as Open Orthodox. Rabbi Shmuel Herzfeld and his National Synagogue can also be called Open Orthodox. It's a little confusing, as the flyer was designed for the local community and doesn't spell things out, just hints at it by referring to the "Multi-Demoninational Jewish Family". Beth Joshua Cong, the host, is also OO.
In reality, it is a multi-dysfunctional meeting. I reviewed a video of a similar meeting hosted by Rabbi Asher Lopatin. While Rabbi Lopatin kvelled at his gathering of representatives from other "denominations", these representatives seemed profoundly uncomfortable, and seemed to struggle at having anything apropos to say. These little get-togethers don't even have the saving grace of being feel-good events.
You are one crazy dude. I dub thee Mad Max. Try to dial down your social commentary from "Max" to "Min", and perhaps we could find some common ground for a discussion.
My experience indicates otherwise. An OO Shul seems Halachic. There's a Mechitza, for one thing. No Conservative Shul that I'm aware of has a Mechitza. The Siddur at an OO Shul has the Orthodox Nusach. Conservative Shuls use a Conservative Siddur. In fact, almost nothing distinguishes an OO Shul from a real Orthodox Shul, except for things like more participation by women, and a warped Hashkafa.
Never heard of these dorks. But it has a "Rabbi" Susan, so it all figures.
ReplyDeleteNebach. One question they should raise is: If Chazal refer to "baseless" hatred, then it seems that there is some hatred which is allowed (encouraged!) and not baseless. What do the esteemed Rabbis think that this refers to? (They can bring a Gemara Pesachim if they get stuck - see there, 113b).
ReplyDeleteO.K. Now I have checked up on this Haim Ovadia fellow - there are a bunch of his essays here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jewishjournal.com/about/author/1097/
Unfortunately, he is not a Torah Jew. He is not "frum". Whether he is Orthodox or not is a different question, and depends on the definition of Orthodox, which is currently in flux and losing most of its meaning.
Here's one example of what he says (http://www.jewishjournal.com/opinion/article/its_time_to_reopen_dialogue_with_islam_20080111):
When we speak about religion, the problem of the world today is not Islam but rather religious fanatics. As of today, most of them are Muslims, but to a certain extent it is the same brand of religious zeal that in our country, a country that heralds the separation of church and state, is holding back stem cell research, fights pro-choice supporters and discriminates against gays and lesbians.
To see a Sephardi Rabbi who is an Apikoros is very upsetting. We need Mashiach now!
"Outside the Box", but not outside the Baksheesh.
ReplyDeleteI am not sure what in the paragraph you quoted gives you the impression that he is not "frum" let alone an apikoros. As someone who knows Rabbi Ovadia personally, I can say that you are wrong.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you define as a Torah Jew? Does someone have to understand the Torah just as you do? There have been many traditions within Torah Judaism, and he is representing a path which has been shoved under the rug for the last few decades, but it is Torah no less than your Torah
He's a supporter of homosexuality and abortion.
ReplyDeleteEven the premise of r ovadia's speech is wrong. There are a number of conservative sephardic congregations. Even though conservative movement has no concept of ashkenaz vs sephardic tfillah (or even customs.)
ReplyDeleteBlah blah blah - are you that naive?
ReplyDeleteCan you name one cong. that identifies itself with the Conservative Movement?
ReplyDeleteWhat about his premise that anyone who opposes his social agenda is a religious zealot. The quote makes it sound like he opposes free speech and democratic rights for anyone who disgrees with him. How's THAT for an example of religious zealotry!
ReplyDeleteOpen Orthodox and Conservative are pretty much the same thing.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Ovadia is the new Rabbi of Magen David Sephardic Congregation.
ReplyDeleteJust curious, was the previous rabbi an OO like him? Also, is YCT paying the first years of his salary? If the precious rabbi wasn't OO did the congregation switch to OO because it's easier on the pocketbook?
go peddle your lies elsewhere. the quote was clear.
ReplyDeletea country that heralds the separation of church and state, is holding back stem cell research, fights pro-choice supporters and discriminates against gays and lesbians.
If a "rabbi" is pro choice and pro gay rights he is not frum or orthodox. He is an apikores, and it sounds like you are one as well.
I think I sense an Ah-GEN-Da! ~~
ReplyDeleteDid you consult your Official Handbook of Ashkenezic Responses (Revised Edition)?
The Maharat calls herself Rabbi Susan, and the publisher of the flyer dittos that?
ReplyDeleteYCT's policy of funding their graduates' salaries is like the high priests of the second Bais Hamikdash who would buy their way into the position.
ReplyDeleteIn a way it's demeaning to a rabbi that on the part of the congregation he is retained for bottom dollar.
An affluent congregation would probably be insulted if the alma mater offered to money the salary of a prospective rabbi.
Max - it's a pity that you're too nuanced and sophisticated to recognise the truth when it hits you smack in the face. Either that or you are being disingenuous. Either way, I have met so many people who write like you do, that it's frankly boring to continue this conversation. That task must fall upon others.
ReplyDeleteWashington Hebrew Congregation is Reform. Rabbi Shankman is not a Maharat. Cong. Har Shalom is Conservative. Beth Shalom Congregation and Talmud Torah can be characterized as Open Orthodox. Rabbi Shmuel Herzfeld and his National Synagogue can also be called Open Orthodox. It's a little confusing, as the flyer was designed for the local community and doesn't spell things out, just hints at it by referring to the "Multi-Demoninational Jewish Family". Beth Joshua Cong, the host, is also OO.
ReplyDeleteIn reality, it is a multi-dysfunctional meeting. I reviewed a video of a similar meeting hosted by Rabbi Asher Lopatin. While Rabbi Lopatin kvelled at his gathering of representatives from other "denominations", these representatives seemed profoundly uncomfortable, and seemed to struggle at having anything apropos to say. These little get-togethers don't even have the saving grace of being feel-good events.
You are one crazy dude. I dub thee Mad Max. Try to dial down your social commentary from "Max" to "Min", and perhaps we could find some common ground for a discussion.
ReplyDeleteMy experience indicates otherwise. An OO Shul seems Halachic. There's a Mechitza, for one thing. No Conservative Shul that I'm aware of has a Mechitza. The Siddur at an OO Shul has the Orthodox Nusach. Conservative Shuls use a Conservative Siddur. In fact, almost nothing distinguishes an OO Shul from a real Orthodox Shul, except for things like more participation by women, and a warped Hashkafa.
ReplyDeleteYes, the ironclad rule of כל הפוסל במומו פוסל can be applied to liberals every time.
ReplyDeleteThere is an assumption that all hatred is baseless. In some situations, there is also hatred based on facts. This may be right or wrong.
ReplyDeleteHe is a christian missionary
ReplyDelete