update: Yehuda Pogrow asked me to publish his full article. I had originally published the major points but he felt that that had led to misunderstandings by some of the readers.
Yehuda Pogrow's Facebook page is here
https://www.facebook.com/yehudapogrow
update: Since posting this I have gotten a number of negative responses to Yeduda Pogrow's analysis and his conclusions. Most focusing on the fact that aside from being beaten up by his brother - he doesn't seem to have any direct knowledge or experience of what the community is doing for child abuse or what should be done.
While the article is obviously written from a sincere desire to be helpful and to empathize with victims - the sweeping condemnations of the community leaders and institutions are problematic. Basically he just woke up to the fact that there is a problem and the first thing he does is scream "fire". As he himself has noted there already are a number of excellent organization that are working on the issues. There are rabbis, educators and community leaders who are working on solving the problems. I would suggest his first step is to work with the organizations and leaders - rather than tell others what to do.
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Times of Israel
Yehuda Pogrow's Facebook page is here
https://www.facebook.com/yehudapogrow
update: Since posting this I have gotten a number of negative responses to Yeduda Pogrow's analysis and his conclusions. Most focusing on the fact that aside from being beaten up by his brother - he doesn't seem to have any direct knowledge or experience of what the community is doing for child abuse or what should be done.
While the article is obviously written from a sincere desire to be helpful and to empathize with victims - the sweeping condemnations of the community leaders and institutions are problematic. Basically he just woke up to the fact that there is a problem and the first thing he does is scream "fire". As he himself has noted there already are a number of excellent organization that are working on the issues. There are rabbis, educators and community leaders who are working on solving the problems. I would suggest his first step is to work with the organizations and leaders - rather than tell others what to do.
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Times of Israel
Meir Pogrow, the justly-condemned sexual predator, is my older brother. He is roughly nine years my senior. I share my story because I hope to launch a movement that will raise from the ashes of this tragedy a new hope for all victims of child abuse — whether or not the specific abuse is a crime in a given jurisdiction, or whether the victim is a minor or a young adult vulnerable to abuse by a perpetrator who holds a position of authority.
I identify with my brother’s victims, because I was — perhaps — his first. He first abused me approximately 30 years ago, in my boyhood years. My brother did not attack me sexually. Rather, over a period of roughly 10 years, he subjected me to severe physical, verbal and emotional abuse. He is short, but he was strong. He would lift me above his head, my whole body parallel to the floor, just let go, and walk away as I crashed to the floor.
I was 17 the last time my brother physically abused me. I had finally grown strong enough to defend myself. He chased me and tried to hit me, but I deflected him. When I thought he had quit trying to hurt me, I dropped my guard. He then stared me in the eyes with a gruesome expression. My arms were at my sides when he punched me, breaking my nose and giving me a concussion. The next day he told me — gleefully — that he broke my nose intentionally. He also explained that I deserved it, because I did not spend enough time studying Torah during my time off from yeshiva.
In my journey of recovery from my brother’s abuses, what has been most difficult to overcome is not the impact of the physical pain — what is most enduring is the psychological trauma and manipulation that he used in order to groom me for the physical pain.
It is this psychological torment that he inflicted that makes me identify so strongly with his later victims. Numerous victims of his torment have spoken out on Facebook. I suspect that it was on me that he first exercised those psychological abuses.
My brother’s carnage is massive, and it spans multiple continents, but it is tragically far from the only carnage. Abuse by faculty in the yeshiva school system has occurred for decades; yet today there remains no system-wide enforceable plan to protect children. Far too many administrators are enablers — at a minimum due to failures to act on complaints brought to their attention — in many of the crimes committed by faculty in yeshivas across the globe.
My brother taught at YULA, a Los Angeles yeshiva, in the 1990s. On Facebook, in a comment replying to a post about my brother, one YULA alumna stated, “But I clearly remember discussing him with other staff members and no one taking us seriously.”
In a separate comment, that same alumna wrote, “I do clearly remember discussing my discomfort about him to another teacher, possibly the principal after a discussion that he instigated about masturbation.”
The YULA administration should issue a public statement to either discredit this former student’s version of events, or confirm that it dismissed Meir immediately after they verified her complaints, and that it did everything in its power to ensure my brother was never allowed in a classroom again.
After leaving YULA, Meir joined the faculty at Michlalah, a school for young women in Israel.
Numerous Michlalah alumnae I met during my time as a student at Queens College in New York told me that my brother was verbally abusive, and that he fostered a cult-like mentality. His groupies were known as “Pogs.”
The Michlalah administration should issue a public statement to confirm that it never received any complaints of abuse of any form perpetrated by my brother. If Michlalah cannot make such a statement, it should publicly provide a detailed accounting of how it acted on all complaints against my brother.
My brother was not the only perpetrator of abuses I experienced as a child. I was a victim of severe physical and emotional abuse in Yeshiva Bais Mikroh in Monsey, at the hands of Rabbi Gavriel Bodenheimer, among others. Bodenheimer and other faculty abused me — and many other children — more than two decades ago, as fellow faculty and my schoolmates looked on. Bodenheimer has since pleaded guilty to endangering the welfare of a child. He is also subject to the typical restrictions imposed on sex offenders.
How could Bodenheimer have remained principal at Bais Mikroh until 2015?
I believe that on a per-capita basis, the magnitude of the cover-ups of sexual, physical, emotional and verbal abuses in the yeshiva system is on par with that of the Catholic Church. There are many wonderful Orthodox rabbis and administrators — I have worked alongside some and proudly consider some my friends and mentors — but the Orthodox Jewish clergy as an institution has lost its credibility. Much like the Catholic priesthood, the rabbinate has its work cut out if it wants to earn back its credibility on matters of child safety.
A fundamental and systemic reform of yeshivas is necessary. Unfortunately, the rabbinate has forfeited its right to lead that reform.
Recent pronouncements by Torah Umesorah of new initiatives to expand education surrounding the issue of child abuse for parents, children, camp counselors and teachers are but a minuscule step forward. Does Torah Umesorah genuinely believe that expanded education will touch the root of the problem?
Where is the joint pronouncement from Torah Umesorah and Agudath Yisrael of America (the Agudah) laying out a concrete plan of action to root out the perpetrators and enablers currently in the system?
Where is the declaration that any teacher or administrator who in any way whatsoever prevents a claim of abuse from getting to the police will be immediately fired?
Where is the directive to every teacher and administrator to advise any complainant who comes forward that he or she (the teacher or administrator) is not equipped to determine the validity of the accuser’s claims?
Where are the instructions for teachers and administrators to immediately direct all allegations to the police?
(Teachers and administrators should, of course, offer any complainant any support they are indeed equipped to offer, including accompanying the alleged victim to the police station.)
Where is the Agudah’s pronouncement that it has reversed its opposition to pending legislation in New York State that would reform the Statute of Limitations (SOL) on child sexual abuse? Does the Agudah really want to be on the same side as the Catholic Church on this issue? Does the Agudah’s concern for the ability of its institutions to financially and reputationally withstand an onslaught of criminal and civil cases justify not doing everything in its power to prevent just one more instance of child abuse?
At the 2016 Torah Umesorah convention, Yaakov Perlow, head of the Agudah, in an attempt to explain the Agudah’s opposition to SOL reform said, “Yes, we want to protect our mosdos (organizations). We want to be able to prevent somebody who wakes up 40 years later, and he sues a yeshiva for something that happened who knows how many years ago. But at the same time, we have no sympathy for perpetrators.” Perlow also stated, “The rabbonim (rabbis) sitting here, knowing perhaps better than I do, how many hours and hours and dozens of hours throughout these last years we’ve sat and deliberated and talked about every single aspect of this problem.”
I would ask Rabbi Perlow, if you have no sympathy for perpetrators and are committed to fixing this problem, why not reverse your opposition to SOL reform and allow the judicial system to assess the validity of victims’ claims?
Is the possibility of even one additional criminal conviction of a predator still operating in a yeshiva not reason enough for the Agudah to lobby for SOL reform?
A committee of mental health professionals, law-enforcement experts, survivors, and child abuse activists should be given free rein to institute the required reforms in the Yeshiva system. This committee will solicit guidance from thoroughly-vetted rabbis and yeshiva administrators.
Further, an independent committee should be empowered to investigate all yeshivas where any claim of abuse has ever been made, with a possible exception for claims that have been previously dismissed by the police or judicial system.
To My Fellow Survivors:
We need no longer scream in silence.
We are hurting. Our lives have been forever altered by sexual, physical, verbal and emotional abuse at the hands of those we trusted implicitly. We struggle with emotional and physical intimacy because our innocence was stolen and our trust betrayed. Many of us have nightmares; sometimes we wake up screaming.
We felt so alone in our pain; no one would listen. We were told we deserved it — some of us told we were bad, some of us told we were oh-so-special. Many of us are well into our adulthood, still only beginning to understand the full scope of the damage our tormentors inflicted upon us. We live with the scars and we try to move forward, but we can no longer stand by and watch as crimes continue in a corrupt system that harbors perpetrators.
Over time we discovered that our friends who were not direct victims became victims indirectly. They tell us that when they learn that clergy they had revered committed heinous crimes against their classmates, it shakes their faith. They are so tired of having to study techniques to train their children to defend their bodies and souls against predators. Is it too much to ask, they wonder, to trust that their children will be kept safe from the time they leave for yeshiva in the morning until the school bus returns them home?
No one understands us better than we understand one another. Let’s meet each other. Let’s unburden ourselves of our pain by sharing it with one another. Let’s harness our awesome collective strength. Let’s be angry, but let’s direct our anger constructively, and as One.
Speaking out is terrifying. It has taken me 30 years to come forward.
Tragically, I believe there are thousands of us. I know — I just know it in my gut — that with the Strength of Numbers we can march together right on through the shaming collaborators may attempt, stronger — and more determined — than ever.
We have so very many good guys on our side jumping up and down for us, laying their necks on the line for us, yelling at anyone who will listen for us. They need our help. Some of them tell me the full scope of necessary reforms will not be implemented for many years, if ever. But an army of survivors speaking out publicly can bring about a sea change. And that’s where we come in.
This is a moment we must seize. The tides are turning our way. A Beit Din (religious court) just formally condemned a rabbi via media outlets worldwide as a rasha (evil man) because of his sexual abuses. I believe from a place in my heart that two weeks ago I did not know existed that we can achieve massive structural reform. I beg you. Please dig deep.
Let’s grab back from our tormentors our overwhelming collective power. We can achieve this. Let’s not stay on the sidelines another day. Let’s get this done.
Our fellow survivors who have already publicly blazed this path before us stand ready at our side.
There are organizations staffed with professionals ready and begging to help survivors. Among them are Jewish Community Watch and Magen. Please reach out to them or other organizations with similar missions.
Should a survivor wish to contact me, he or she may email me at [email address deleted. Not convinced that a victim of abuse should contact an untrained volunteer to deal with this problem DT] Survivors may feel free to maintain their anonymity when contacting me.
Dear Victim,
ReplyDeleteI am sire your heart is in the right place, but please explain this:
Before condemning an entire generation of teachers and administrators as "enablers", have you stopped to think that the epidemic doesn't really exist? Do you belive that 20% of our children are sexaully abused? If you do, than I understand your justification for your zeal to ruin a teachers life due to an allegation.
For the rest of us, due process is still a "thing", and we tend to, perhaps naively, try to investigate a claim before throwing a friend to the dogs.
Yes we make mistakes. But since when do we let hysteria dictate societal norms?
I'm sure at this point you're shaking your head and saying "let them call the cops- they're the experts!!"
OK. I'll make believe that that's true. But let me ask you, what's the ratio between Seeking Justice and seeking a conviction? Does it bother them that an innocent teacher or administrator may be railroaded the loose his career and social standing forever?
The professional activist would love nothing more then not allowing any teacher with even a whisper of a rumor to continue teaching. Is that the way it should be? The teaching profession as it is, doesn't really pay very well. On a whole, it's actually something that requires a level of commitment not found in virtually any other career. Yet, we throw these dedicated people out the door the second he becomes even a little toxic to the professional advocate. On the contrary, looking to insure fairness labels the administrator an enabler.
In summation, I'm sorry to say this to you, but the system largely works. It works without trying to destroy even more lives. All it does is prevent dedicated people from entering a career which is the very artery of our existence.
So let me see if I have YitzchokM's POV below summed up properly, with my response enclosed:
ReplyDelete1) There is no epidemic of abuse, just exaggeration.
Yes, every defense of the system must begin with this statement. Somehow, enablers think there is merit to stating the percentage is not 20%, but "only" 10 or 5%. At least they open with a clear statement to the rest of us of the value they place on children's lives.
2) Due process is due the accused. However, that legal term is not to be entrusted to the criminal justice system.
Of course, enablers must liken today's system of due process to Tsarist beheadings or inquisitional horror. It is anathema for them to admit that our system of due process may actually investigate these claims appropriately.
3) Police are about convictions, not Justice (with a capital J no less).
Yes, the big bad Tsar again. Only rabbis, with their sterling track record over the last 50 years, can be entrusted with Justice. In fact, there still hasn't been a single documented case of the rabbinical system clearing the path for the prosecution of a molester. Of course, there are dozens of cases of victims and their families being threatened and hounded out of house and home. Now there's Justice (the capital kind) at work for you!
And moreover, I have no doubt Mr M has never even met a police official, who might educate him on due process procedure.
4) Poor little teachers are victims of 'professional advocates' (whoever such menacing individuals be).
Imagine, these evil professional advocates...trying to destroy teacher's lives....nothing to do with children, right? The only professionals in this five decade old saga are the rabbinical enablers, who succeeded in keeping a lid on the horrors of abuse in our institutions until the treife internet came along. Then, a tiny handful of baalei bayis decided to settle this once and for all.
Yitzchok, you can throw your lot in with the rabbis and the enablers. The rest of us, all interested in true justice, will stake our Olam Haba on the tzidkus of the advocates. They have been trying to save kids' lives, which is infinitely more than can be said of you and the rabbinical leadership.
DanielNY1 - what you just wrote made some sort of sense 5 years ago - but it is not accurate today
ReplyDeleteDear poster, I encourage you to step forward and defend your profession. I am a former teacher myself. Teachers are indeed woefully underpaid. Don't sit back. Stand up and prove the might of your profession! Gather together the good guys and take a public stand on the right side of the issue! I'm on your team.
ReplyDeleteCould you be a drop more specific than a single general sentence?
ReplyDeleteIs the justice system less reliable for due process today? Has abuse abated in the last five years....and can you quantify such a statement? Or, have advocates become as powerful as YM claims in the last five years? If they have, AI still isn't prepared to allow for mandated reporters to fulfill their obligations under the law.
I realize that what I'm about to write will anger some people, and will considered to be divisive by others.
ReplyDeleteReading about the vicious way this meshugana behaved with his own brother, makes it clear that this guy is not a person who fell through and gave in to his human desires. It makes it clear that this guy always had a huge character problam and was never fit to be a role model. Which is what brings up the next point.
When Yeshiva institutions that do not call themselves modern, or some other new 20th century faction, search for an educator, the first quality that they seek is a role model. They first seek a person who is imbued with yiras Shomayim and proper midos. Only once this has been established, do they began to evaluate the candidate's skills and knowledge. Unfortunatly, the type of institution where Meir got his first teaching gig at primarily values intelect. I highly doubt that Meir would have ever landed a job as an educator at a "right wing" "caveman" institution that is closed off to the "real" world.
I don't see how his case is somehow indicative of the supposed necessity of "a fundamental and systemic reform of yeshios." Sorry, this violent person is an anomaly in yeshivos.
All abuse must rooted out. But it must be done by cool, compassionate and thoughtful heads. It cannot be done by youthful hotheadedness.
Your patronizing response does not in any way address yitzchokm's main point, which is that teachers too are entitled to due process, and should not be persecuted and/or fired without proper investigation.
ReplyDeleteAs @Honesty pointed out, this Pogrow is a product of and a educator of the Modern Orthodox world, not the Hareidi world.
ReplyDeleteI wonder, do you feel that your abuse is a ls harsh as sexual abuse? In the article you ask the "survivors" to stick together.
ReplyDeleteAnother point, where were your parents? Why didn't anyone protect you? At what age did it start?
Abuse has abated over the last five years, yes.
ReplyDeleteI agree with all of your points.
ReplyDeleteMeir Pogrow studied at Bais Mikroh, Bais Shraga, and Torah Temima. Does that sound MO to you? And while this is not about "ire," my assertions apply to the the full gamut of the Orthodox world.
ReplyDeleteMy brother indeed never should have been educator in the first place. I wish I had a bullhorn 25 years ago. However, if you read all of my article, I myself was abused by Gavriel Bodenheimer and many others in Bais Mikroh. And so were tens of my schoolmates. For concerns of legal action, the newspaper refused to publish more details, and at least for now I am being careful about possible legal action that could be taken against me. Bais Mikroh is pretty darn right-wing "yorei shamayim." Further, I couldn't agree more that it must be done by cool, compassionate, and thoughtful heads. "Heads" with no conflicts of interest and pristine records.
ReplyDeleteI vigorously support due process. Due process begins at the police station. No one should be fired before allegations are substantiated. In a theoretical situation where abuse is for some reason not criminal, some other form of adjudication supervised by an independent body should be performed. I have no clue what that process would look like, but that's one of the conversations that should be had.
ReplyDeleteNo comment.
ReplyDeletejust received this response from someone who asked it be posted. I have received a number of other comments questioning the qualifications of Yehuda Pogrow to condemn the religious community and its leaders- other than being beaten up by his brother 30 years ago
ReplyDelete======================================
Why do you post a wild-eyed rant of someone whose only qualifications to give opinions in these matters are:
a)his brother beat him up
b)his brother was outed as a sexual predator.
THAT qualifies him to pontificate about Yeshivahs,steps being taken, Organizations , etc?
Who are you,Yehudah Pogrow?
What have you done in your life ,other than getting beat up by your brother, to be qualified to say anything about anything?
I hear arrogance,haughtiness,pretension,ego,bluster,smugness and vanity.
In short, I hear Meir Pogrow’s brother,perhaps in more ways than one.
I hear shaming. It won't stop the movement.
ReplyDeletewhat movement?
ReplyDeleteTo end abuse in Yeshivas by achieving a critical mass of survivors who come forward out loud to force change.
ReplyDeleteDear Editor: In response to your preamble, please note that I wrote my article in close consultation with numerous leading child abuse advocates, victims of abuse in Yeshivas, mental health professionals, as well two incredibly well-regarded right-wing rabbonim. I do thank you for providing your platform to share my message. Warm Regards, Yehuda Pogrow
ReplyDeleteI further direct you to Magen's facebook page, where they endorsed the article. Magen, a staunch supporters of victims of abuse in the Charedi community, is one of the organizations with whom I consulted before publishing my article. You may recall that Magen also supported Tamara Schoor, the victim of Meir Pogrow who publicized her account.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.facebook.com/%D7%A2%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%AA-%D7%9E%D7%92%D7%9F-MAGEN-319084661527100/?fref=nf
More accurately, I think there has been a general recognition that the rabbinic system is poorly equipped to deal with abuse situations, and given the high rate of repeated abuse, one simply must turn the matter over to secular authorities as a preventative measure and fulfillment of lo saamod al dam re'iechah. The former gadol ha dor, R' Elyashiv, said as much.
ReplyDeleteYou're delusional
ReplyDeleteOMG yes!!!!
ReplyDelete"They first seek a person who is imbued with yiras Shomayim and proper midos"..../
That is exactly why the entire chinuch system has been going down to hell for years.
Intellect is a gift from above. While you can't teach every single student to be brilliant, you can teach every single human good middos and yiras shamayim, and proper Torah values.
The only secret is that the teacher must imbue and encompass the same lessons s/he teaches.
....
One doesn't need a teaching degree, a college education or photographic memory to teach good middos and ahavas Hashem.... One simply needs yiras shamayim, ahavas habriyos and Ahavas Hashem themselves.
Look at the classic story of Rabbi Akiva. As an am haaretz-, he had a heart of gold.... When cultivated and guided properly he was able to become the Gadol Hador. It was his patient wife Rachel, (not the brilliant scholars - or men of great staus, like his father in law) who saw past his ignorance and was able to guide him to the path that led him to his lofty status.
Education today needs more teachers who can see into the hearts of students to cultivate their yiras shamayim and middos tovos.
However, the education system today, places more emphasis on knowledge then character.
Bais Mikra in Monsey?
ReplyDeleteIsn't the abuse in that school common knowledge now?
I don't even live NY state and I've heard of the abuse there....
Yet he grew up in an MO household and taught in MO institutions such as YULA and Michlala. And most of his offensive activities appear to have occurred with MO women at those MO schools.
ReplyDeleteWhat shaming?
ReplyDeleteI was a contemporary of Yehuda Pogrow's at Bais Mikroh.
ReplyDeleteSomehow I was and am largely oblivious to the physical and emotional abuse of which he speaks. My experience at Bais Mikroh was for the most part not a positive one. However, I am at a loss when I hear him and others speak of pervasive abuse.
Perhaps he can elaborate.
But that's precisely the point. There already IS a critical mass. It's been happening for years. Yes, your voice is another important one, but to pretend that you are leading a movement that's been marching for some time is a little naive.
ReplyDelete...and another thing: I'd take you a LOT more seriously if you didn't fall back on liberal keywords like "shaming" and made your arguments. I do feel terrible about the whole thing. My sister and yours were very good friends growing up.
ReplyDeleteAs uncomfortable as it may be for you, questions about where the holy hell your parents were when all this was going on are ABSOLUTELY FAIR GAME if you are going to throw the entire Chinuch system under the bus. Chinuch begins at home, and absent any evidence to the contrary, the first layer of blame for your brother's CONTINUED behavior should be laid at your parents feet.
ReplyDeletePlease identify yourself.
ReplyDeleteThe questions are not uncomfortable for me. I just have no comment.
ReplyDeleteAside from Yerachmiel Lopin who helped you write your article? Which organizations are you working with - Jewish Community Watch, Amudim or Magen?
ReplyDeleteCan you say who the two "right-wrong" rabbonim were, Yehuda?
ReplyDeleteStick your head in the sand if you wish.
ReplyDelete10 hrs ·
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah you mentioned that Rabbis, educators and organisations are addressing the issue of child sexual abuse.
.
Please see the parallels between the promises in the Yated article and similar promises several years earlier in Australia. As subsequently exposed by the Royal Commission, these initiatives had little real effect in getting a good enough communal response to sex abuse. : http://users.tpg.com.au/…/10Vivien%27sPresentation10-2.7.16…
He taught there cause they pay better than charedi mosdot institutions, and they pay on time
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't call a few well-deserved petch "abuse" . Even if there are rabbonim who are against giving petch, there are large portions of klal yisroel with chushuva rabbonim who still want the rabbeim to use this form of punishment.
ReplyDeleteThe only reason I would identify myself in this forum would be to lend credence to my claims. As I am not claiming anything other than that I don't share your experience, I see no reason to do so.
ReplyDeleteEither you and I define "physical and emotional abuse" differently or your experience was different than mine. I suspect the former.
As to my claim that I was in Bais Mikroh when you were, you were in 7th grade the first year at the Viola Rd building.
I dispute the notion that was in an "MO" home growing up, but i also have no idea why it is relevant. I testified to abuse at yeshivish schools as well and there are so many cases of convicted perpetrators operating in yeshivishe schools. Why the effort to separate? Why not just fix the problem everywhere?
ReplyDeleteYes, in Monsey. "Common knowledge" doesn't equal fundamental acknowledgement that systemic reform is needed. Unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteSee my Facebook post for the names of some of the people who helped me. But I do not have the liberty to identify all of the more than 15 people who helped me. I do not -- at least not yet -- have a formal alliance with any organizations.
ReplyDeleteWith respect, R' Eidenson, your disclaimer is ill-advised for two reasons. First, the context of the article is clear in that it circulated immediately after the unprecedented announcement about Meir Pogrow and was written by his brother. A little seichel would reveal what drives the article and might suggest a better way to react to it if you disagree.
ReplyDeleteSecond, regardless of Yehuda's credentials or expertise, his point is still much truer than it ought to be. The principal of the school Yehuda went to was still in his position years after a letter was circulated online about, at best, neglect and incompetence leading to pervasive physical abuse (and only left, ironically, because of sex abuse allegations nobody believes). A decade after Unorthodox Jew and Failed Messiah blew the doors off of Orthodox complacency in their arguably misguided fashion, a respected rav was run out of Lakewood for going to the authorities when his son was sexually abused. And you address the implication of these problems pretty much the way the frum world did for ages - by assuming there are people dealing with it. How do you determine that a problem is sufficiently under control to let the lay people stand down and the professionals take over? Is it when you have a few vocal commenters yelling about it?
While Yehuda does not raise this point specifically, his piece implicitly lends valuable insight - there are brilliant, charismatic people who display warning signs that show they are not fit for leadership, and their rebbeim and authorities need to be aware of that ahead of time.
You have your head in the sand.
ReplyDelete"Poorly equipped'' or doesn't want the equipment?
ReplyDeleteGood article, by Yehuda Pogrow. Yasher koach.
ReplyDeletethank you - could you please provide a link to your facebook page
ReplyDeletehttps://www.facebook.com/yehudapogrow
ReplyDeleteDear Rabbi Eidensohn,
ReplyDeleteWhy on earth did you publish this anonymous and cowardly hit piece? The author won't even identify himself. I dont care what the topic or point of view. But a personal attack on another Jew should not be tolerated under any circumstances.
Perhaps before we discuss this any further - you need to be aware of something. The police are not a universal solution. There are many times when the police - especially in Israel - are very insensitive in handling charges of abuse.
ReplyDeleteThe recent case of the Stanford rapist is an indication that the courts are not necessarily the source of justice either.
Most accusations - even when genuine do not result in a signifcant jail sentence most of the time. Psychologists and social workers are also not a universal solution - many of them are ill equiped to deal with abuse issues. In fact if you read the cases dealing with satanic child abuse in California - they were based largely based on the erroneous conclusions of therapists and the police as well as people who formed a lynch mob out of righteousness.
We need people working together - not "blowing off the doors" as a previous poster claimed
As a beginning please read Shana Aaronson (of Jewish Community Watch) discussing some relevant points.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/06/what-happens-when-you-contact-jewish.html
thank you
ReplyDeleteYou are probably correct that awareness is up, but I don't believe there has been enough movement to ensure the civil authorities handle all cases. There's a stubborn reliance on mesira/shonda/police fears.
ReplyDeleteJust listen to the head of AI's recent "groundbreaking" speech at Torah Umesora. He's still talking about the countless hours the so-called gedolim have spent dealing with CSA issues. To what end? No one knows. But he's still patting them all on the back for it.
The anonymous commenter asked that I post his response to Yehuda's response of "I hear shaming. It won't stop the movement". As is obvious - Yehuda's essay has produced strong feelings for and against what he has said. I am trying to be fair by allowing both sides to express themselves with little or no censorship on my part.
ReplyDelete===============================================
"I hear shaming" after virtually so many Yeshivohs and Institutions and Organizations were 'shamed' by him--that is called manipulative,accusing victims of the flaws of the victimizer.
"It won't stop the movement"--spoken like a true cult leader.
You have learned well, Yehudah.
I was also in Beis Mikroh and I also would not have characterized what I went through as "abuse", although I knew that corporal punishment was generally considered abusive outside the frum world. Then Shlomo Silber's letter hit the internet and I realized two things. One, that based on my experience, every word he wrote was almost certainly true, and two, that Beis Mikroh had a pervasively abusive atmosphere.
ReplyDeleteSome boys are better behaved and don't get slapped. Some boys are tougher and don't break down or carry scars for decades afterward. That does not change the fact that too many rebbeim thought it was perfectly fine to slap, beat, and humiliate students with (as though it would matter) no didactic purpose. That does not change the fact that aside from beating kids, the primary way of dealing with them was sending them to the first grade classroom where Rabbi Blobstein would hopefully be nice to them, or to a floating "remedial" class where Rabbi Rosengarten would deal with them or not depending on his mood.
I am very happy for you that you escaped Beis Mikroh without lasting damage. It strikes me that it is important for people like you to recognize the objective facts so that those who suffered more can be justified in their regret.
Because you're ToI article specifically targets Torah Umesorah, Agudas Yisroel and Rabbi Perlow whereas your brother was more steeped in the MO world, from a MO family and his abuses were mostly at MO institutions targeting MO women and yet you don't mention or focus on MO institutions and rabbis in your ire that is in response to an abuse situation (your brother) that is mostly affecting the MO world rather than the Hareidi world.
ReplyDeleteWith regard to your earlier question about with which organizations I am aligned, please note that Jewish Community Watch has now posted my article. Although the organization as an entity has not formally endorsed me, numerous representatives have expressed their support for my mission: https://www.facebook.com/JewishCommunityWatch.Org/?fref=nf. One of their representatives made significant contributions in advising me as I drafted my article.
ReplyDeleteBarry as you probably are aware as a long time reader of my blog - when feelings run strongly for justifiable reasons - I allow both sides greater leeway in expressing their outrage and hurt. This post by Yehuda Pogrow is strongly polarizing. To the advocates such as Yerachmiel Lopin and organizations such as Magen - his post is viewed as extremely cogent analysis and calls for ripping apart an archaic system which is ill equiped to deal with child abuse. To others - including myself - it is the call of an outsider and naive novice to fix something by throwing out the baby with the bath water. It shows an incredible insensitivity and ignorance of the nature of the Orthodox community and what can and can't be done by the police and social agencies. Perhaps more important it ignores the real changes that have taken place in the last 5 years as well as the many sensitive and knowledgable leaders, who are working hard to improve the situation. It also is insenstive to collateral damage both to the victims and their families and to the institutions as well as the families of the perpetrators. They are calling for greater sensitivity than is displayed in this post.
ReplyDeleteBottom line - the response is line with how many see Yehuda's post. Yehuda's supporters are saying in essence "but all he is doing is saying the obvious that the system is a gigantic failure and nothing will happen until outsiders tell the rabbis what to do and assume responsibility for making all decisions in these cases.
No. Feel free to not believe me.
ReplyDeleteMy brother's situation was the *trigger* that inspired me to write. My piece is in "response" to so much more than my brother.
ReplyDeleteLet me be very loud and very clear before I continue. I am no Mahatma Ghandi, and I am no Martin Luther King, Jr. They are heroes. I am no hero. But hey were heroes who initiated "movements." I assert they were not cult leaders. They were oh-so-far from perfect characters, but changed the world for the better, with movements that were not cults.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, I specifically called out Michlalah and YULA to assert they did not cover up my brother's misconduct. My implication was that they did. That is a very serious allegation that I implied. Would you agree that those institutions are significantly to the left of Agudah and Torah Umesorah? Please read the full article. R' Eidensohn excluded significant portions.
ReplyDeleteDear Rabbi Eidenshohn, I call upon you to publish the full article in this forum. It appears at least one reader was misinformed because you excluded portions. Thank you, Yehuda Pogrow
ReplyDeleteI can understand that one might have gotten the impression that the problem is worse than it is, and has not been addressed, when apparently steps are now being taken to prevent it in the future. Nevertheless, The above post was out of line, and was a personal attack. If he disagreed with content of Yehuda Pogrow's post, he should have addressed the points he disagreed with and provided proof to the contrary. But the tone was way out of line.
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, I will say that in all my years of yeshiva education in many places, all my rebbeim were kind, sincere, and fully devoted to the talmidim. I never had any negative experience, and had numerous teachers, so my sense is that it is a rare problem, when it does happen. However, I did have friends who were in one of the yeshivas in the '80s where some of the first problems came to light, so clearly we must be vigilant. But to stain the entire system is taking it too far. Clearly, the entire non-Jewish world was just as unprepared. So the world is learning how to handle it as time progresses. Nevertheless, the vast majority of educators are dedicated and hardworking people, whom we should never forget to thank.
R' Eidensohn, I further call upon you to state at the top of your page that you previously excluded significant portions of the article, and that the full article is now published here.
ReplyDeleteYour head is the one buried in the sand, same as the rest of the frum community for the past 50 years regarding the plague of child sexual abuse. "It's not so bad" or "it's getting better" or "rabbonim are dealing with it" are the same hollow excuses we were hearing 10 years ago, 15 years ago, etc. It does nothing for the countless victims who feel muzzled and those that are being revictimized for speaking up. The "system" needs a complete overhaul and it starts with allowing victims to go directly to the police as per halacha. The cover ups must end completely before I can accept your assertion that "abuse has abated over the last five years". Until there is some deterrent against the abusers and enablers, there is no reason to believe that the abuse has abated.
ReplyDeleteYour continuing posting of this person's comments is a bit strange. Yehuda Pogrow posted a reasonable article with a positive outlook regarding a problem we all know to have existed. You are facilitating an unhinged response that calls Pogrow, on the basis of his article, arrogant, pretentious, egotistical, smug, vain, and manipulative. How can you possibly think the words "what have you done in your life other than getting beat up by your brother" are worth sharing with the world? And the anonymous writer has the incredible lack of self-awareness to refer to Pogrow's article as a "wild eyed rant". This is the kind of comment that makes normal people wonder how such a person's friends and family can stand to be around him.
ReplyDeleteWhen such posts make it through your review, it makes you look bad; but at least your role is passive. When you affirmatively post such comments and it is apparent that people with such opinions feel comfortable emailing you to share them, it makes you look unhinged as well. Frankly, all this thread is missing now is a post by RAP with a haskama from you about how this is all Chaim Berlin's fault.
Have you considered why, despite him having taught at both MO and Hareidi schools, most of the abuse he was successful in conducting was at MO institutions with MO women rather than at or with Hareidim?
ReplyDeleteTouchy!
ReplyDeleteA call to arms needs some people behind it with reputation who are willing to give their names.
"I hear shaming."
ReplyDeleteThat's just another way of saying, "Shut up."
The chinuch system certainly has its problems, but it most emphatically has not been "going to hell for years." On a whole, I find it works much better, and is far better staffed, than in the years I passed through it. My children's rabbeim are, on the whole, much better than mine were. And hitting has almost completely disappeared.
ReplyDelete"Heads" with no conflicts of interest and pristine records.
ReplyDeleteDo you fit that description?
Yes, very good points.
ReplyDeleteBecause you haven't thought about it? B/c you don't feel comfortable blaming your parents? B/c they are blameless?
ReplyDeletePlease don't waster your energy defending me on this front. Cowardly hit pieces strengthen us in the eyes of the world. But I do appreciate your support. Please share my article, and please feel free to reach out to me at the email in my article so we can discuss how to work together.
ReplyDeleteOK later tonight
ReplyDeleteOK
ReplyDeleteI'm not touchy, whatsoever. Just not inclined to engaged in extended back and forths. Give it some time. There will be lots of names.
ReplyDeleteNo, it's not at all. Shame all you wish. Do it with a bullhorn.
ReplyDelete1) Do you know who his victims were? Because I don't. 2) Why does it matter whether they were MO or Haredim? This labeling thing is just so silly. What if 24.673% were on the border between Haredi and MO?
ReplyDeleteAgainst the rabbeim who hit me? Absolutely biased, biased in the sense that they all must be fired immediately. As for rabbeim in general, it's a case by case basis. My assertion is that the "institution has lost its credibility." I suspect we will disagree on my use of that general statement. That's ok. Disagreement is fantastic.
ReplyDeleteRabbonim who give out "well-deserved petch" are criminals under the law of this land. They must be prosecuted and jailed. End of story.
ReplyDeleteThank you for a much-needed laugh!
ReplyDeleteI agree wholeheartedly that the vast majority of educators are dedicated and hardworking people who we should never forget to thank. They are also woefully underpaid. The problem is that too many of the people with the power to stop abuse are not dedicated to children. A powerful minority has created the systemic problem.
ReplyDeletewhat is the basis for this pronouncement? Is it from personal experience? How many people constitute the "powerful minority"
ReplyDeletewhat land are you talking about? From Wikipedia
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment
United States[edit]
Main article: School corporal punishment in the United States
There is no federal law addressing corporal punishment in public or private schools. In 1977, the Supreme Court ruling in Ingraham v. Wright held that the Eighth Amendment clause prohibiting "cruel and unusual punishments" did not apply to school students, and that teachers could punish children without parental permission.
As of 2015, 31 states and the District of Columbia have banned corporal punishment in public schools, though in some of these there is no explicit prohibition. Corporal punishment is also unlawful in private schools in Iowa and New Jersey. In 19 U.S. states, corporal punishment is lawful in both public and private schools.[132]
Hospitals make mistakes all the time. When a patient has a heart attack, do you bring them to the hospital, or do you go somewhere else because some doctors make mistakes?
ReplyDeletewhat is the basis for claiming that rabbeim who hit you must be fired immediately? As noted it is not illegal apparently in private schools in most of the United States. Is it a violation of school rules or condition or employment?
ReplyDeleteSuch a good question. This is where we hit the crux of the debate. Only time will tell the definitive truth for the world to see.
ReplyDeleteyour logic can be used to justify not going to the police. If most of the time a solution which is satisfactory to victim and community can be arranged without police - would you insist on always going to the police because there are sometimes when the community badly mishandles the case?
ReplyDeleteIf my statement about the law was incorrect, I stand corrected and apologize for my error. I will assert however, that whether or not it is illegal, any teacher who intentionally physically hurts a child should be immediately fired. "End of Story." Feel free to disagree. It's not an open conversation from where i stand.
ReplyDeleteIt strikes me as bizarre that we learn one day about a serial sexual abuser in MO institutions, and almost the next day his brother, who no one has ever heard of, suddenly pops out of the woodwork in full cry against chareidi mosdos for non-sexual abuse. How strange. Is this a ploy to distract from the shame of his family? Either way, the involvement of Lopin is suspicious. I suspect he's using this poor dupe as his stalking horse.
ReplyDeleteIf my statement about the law was in error, I stand corrected and apologize for my error. I will assert however, that whether or not it is illegal, any teacher who intentionally physically hurts a child should be immediately fired. "End of Story." Feel free to disagree. It's not an open conversation from where i stand.
ReplyDeleteLike every responsible commentator, I read the original source before commenting. My issues stand.
ReplyDeleteAnother evasive answer. For someone who's written an essay two or three pages long, he seems to have very few words to express yourself.
ReplyDeleteI would strongly advise anyone from contacting Mr. Pogrow privately, particularly a vulnerable person who has gone through suffering. I respectfully request that Rabbi Eidensohn remove his contact information and his request for contact.
ReplyDeleteIt takes a lot of guts, and extreme insensitivity to compare a few petch to sexual abuse. Whatever your opinion may be about petch, it was very common for every household in Western society to use it just a short 100+ years ago. Every schhol used it as well. No one ever excused sexual abuse. (Besides for a few looney liberals...)
ReplyDeleteThere are many reasoons to see Mr. Pogrow as opportunistic and using this story as a way to make a name for himself and to gain a following. Looks like someone would like to be a leader of a movement.
You replied. You made a claim in order to gain credibility. Your refusal to identify your supposed "two right-wing" rabbinic endorsers damages your credibility. It makes look as if you lied. It makes one wonder how many other deceitful things you may written.
ReplyDeleteNew York State law permits corporal punishment in private schools.
ReplyDeleteThe labels are being discussed because your ToI article singled out Chareidim and Chareidi institutions while not doing that to MO. So if your brothers activities prompted your public coming on this issue, it would be reasonable for you to focus at least as much where most of the immediate abuse he perpetrated occurred.
ReplyDeleteWhich demonstrates 48 out of 50 States permit corporal punishment in private schools, with Iowa and New Jersey being the only exceptions.
ReplyDeleteHowever, it takes a tremendous amount of insensitivity to call yourself a survivor of abuse at school, when what you went through is not considered abuse. Furthermore, for you to equate legal actions with child sexual abuse, is using and abusing those who have suffered to bolster yourself and to further your little pet peeves.
ReplyDeleteI've reread your post, and my critique stands. On the contrary, it actually made things worse for you.
ReplyDeleteYour physical abuse at the hands of your brother, happened at home, it would seem. Does this mean that parents are enablers for sibling abuse? Do you believe your parents are culpable for his behavior? You so readily would like to destroy a teacher's culpability, but are you willing to say samething about your parents?
Should you have been placed in Forster Care?
Yes I agree. There seems to be no reason why Yehuda should be the conduit dealing with victims. He has neither the training nor the elementary knowledge about abuse. There are hot lines available at JWC and Magen and Amudim. Why aren't they being suggested?
ReplyDeleteThe original article had links to Amudim and Magen in it. Kindly include those websites or there hotlines in the text. Thank you, Yehuda Pogrow
ReplyDeleteI respect your position.
ReplyDeleteDear Honesty,
ReplyDeleteThe issue wasn't petch. That is reserved for parents or teachers (without getting into the debate about its appropriateness). But beating up a brother by dropping him from many feet is a completely different issue.
The first paragraph does not merit a response. As for the second,"I share my story because I hope to launch a movement that will raise from the ashes of this tragedy a new hope for all victims of child abuse — whether or not the specific abuse is a crime in a given jurisdiction, or whether the victim is a minor or a young adult vulnerable to abuse by a perpetrator who holds a position of authority." Correct - I seek to lead a movement.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that you allow the Popular Opinion on Facebook to formulate your views of right and wrong.
ReplyDeleteAs Eidensohn has brought, there is no law against school corporal punishment in NYS.
Even if there was, the only problem you can claim with carrying out the punishment would be possibly a problem of not keeping Dina Dimalchusa.
And when it comes to Laws against Yiddishkeit, there is no need to keep Dina Dimalchusa.
If there was a law made against metzitzah b'peh, would you say that it has to be kept?
How about if there was a law made banning milah completely? Would you comply?
How about the ancient Greek and Roman laws against teaching/learning Torah - would you have kept them?
In Israel , it is written in the official law that the secular law of the State of Israel is more important than the law of the Torah. Do you think that a Jew is bound by this?
What defines true "Abuse" is defined by Hashem's Torah, something you forget to mention in your lengthy article.
As it says in Pirkei Avos "seyag lachochma - Shtika"
I do not speak on behalf of my family. I've been accused of many things. Being anyone's stalking horse is not one of them.
ReplyDeleteyes so where were the parents?
ReplyDeleteI have already reported the contact information for the organizations in a recent post.
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/06/how-to-get-help-if-you-are-abuse-victim.html
It depends on what we mean by "petch" - a literal slap on the wrist? A rap on the knuckles with a ruler (somewhat common in my days)? A slap in the face? A paddling? Whipping with a belt?
ReplyDeleteTo my mind, not every form of physical contact is abuse - though I may agree that I don't want the yeshivos meting out such punishments. Nonetheless, to my mind, anything whose sting is gone in a short period of time does not rise to the level of abuse.
I can attest that the Pogrow home was not MO by anyone's definition.
ReplyDeleteAs did I. Nonetheless, credit RDE for making the changes asap.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree. I don't want to further traumatize YP, but isn't it possible that your real anger is directed at your parents but you cannot bring yourself to criticize them, so you condemn the yeshivos and the yeshiva system - where the "attacks" were far more mild - as a proxy?
ReplyDeleteGosh, this is getting ridiculous. A guy pops up out of nowhere, claims to be leading a movement, makes broad accusations against an entire system, uses childish buzzwords and responses, and doesn't know the law of the land that he claims to be invoking.
ReplyDeleteWhere have I heard anything like this?
Oh yeah, I remember now- it was in Manhattan last week, from a crazy guy railing against an invasion of body-snatchers.
Please just ignore this rachmonus-case.
Anyway, as he says the movement is coming regardless...probably parking their spaceship as we speak
I hope you're laughing at the truth.
ReplyDeletein NYState, corporal punishment is 100% legal. NYC public schools do not allow it, but that is policy (grounds for firing, but that's a whole other story (rubber room, teachers union) ) not law. Privateschools and parents can make their own policy, subject to child abuse accusations.
ReplyDeleteAlso note the last siman section of SA of laws of three weeks, just before tisha b'av.
Assuming what you say (about five years ago), it takes five or so years for victims to mature, and or get the strength to formally complain.
ReplyDeleteSure, it's a different issue, one that has absolutely zero to do with the chinuch system.
ReplyDeleteAll the same, I would suggest waiting a decent interval for your brother's actions to recede a bit before you leap forward to coopt the moment. I suspect you are acting out of the shock, trauma and emotion engendered by your brother's unmasking. These do make a solid foundation for what you say you'd like to achieve.
ReplyDeleteI'm ok with you implying that I'm a liar without trying to prove you wrong.
ReplyDeleteI think it was actually almost 5 pages.
ReplyDeleteI trust you have now read the full version in the article, to include the portions related to Michlalah and YULA.
ReplyDeleteWhat I don't understand is why Mr. Yehuda Pogrow didn't join many of the abuse fighting movements and organizations earlier.
ReplyDeleteWhy now?
Why did he remain silent about his brothers bad behavior up until now?
Where were you 5 years ago?
I am really incredulous how you get off categorizing the upbringing of someone who you seem to have never met, counter to the assertions of his own brother.
ReplyDeleteActually, you're the one who proved yourself to be lying. You claimed that you won't release the name of your supposed two rabbinical advisors for the sole reason that you "don't want to engage in back and forths." However, you use quite a bit of words and engage in plenty "of back and forths" just to refuse to give the names of the rabbis you have asked us to think make you credible. Sorry, either give their names or admit that you were deceitful when you asked us to give you credence due to your claim that have rabbinical backing.
ReplyDeleteYes, I did prove that you were, and are, being deceitful.
I just thought your comment was funny. Perhaps you didn't mean it in jest. I thought you did.
ReplyDeleteGlen - This is a very smart, well-informed question. Thank you for that. I don't know that I will ever fully understand the full scope of motivations that prompted me to write publicly. But aren't all of us human not always fully aware of the full scope of our motivations? If we waited until we fully understood the full scope of our motivations, wouldn't we in many cases fail to act when we really do need to act? I did my very best to carefully examine my motivations before I took this action. I do believe that I did what I did not out of a place of displaced emotion. No doubt this is a complex issue for me and has been for many years. But I do ask you to take the words I wrote at face value. I do believe I have paid attention to the many aspects of those who inflicted pain upon me, and done my very best over time to address those different sources in the best way I learned how to do so. (What you wrote was not re-traumatizing at all.) Ps. I have to disagree with the categorization of the Yeshiva attacks as "far more mild," although I wish not to go into detail about this, at least not at this point.
ReplyDeleteI have no comment regarding my family beyond those that I have already publicly made about Meir in the article. Yes, I am very comfortable with the assertions of lost credibility that I made regarding teachers and administrators. I vigorously stand behind my comments.
ReplyDeleteHe was ambiguous in the response on that point.
ReplyDeleteYehuda, was your physical abuse by your brother when he was a child or an adult? Do you believe children should be condemned for their misdeeds once they become adults?
ReplyDeleteI encourage you in the strongest possible terms to broadcast your opinion far and wide.
ReplyDeleteI encourage you in the strongest possible terms to broadcast all personal attacks against me as far and wide as possible.
ReplyDeleteI really do hate labels, but "his brother" agrees with Glen that his home was "not MO by anyone's definition." I hope that is sufficiently not ambiguous.
ReplyDeleteCool
ReplyDeleteThank you for your suggestion.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you vigorously stand behind those statements, because without them, you don't have anything to stand on. Your entire platform are those statements.
ReplyDeleteBut again, you've evaded answering the actual question.
Perhaps one of your professional Advocates can help you with it. Do you want me to forward it to them?
I know that trick of using a bigger front very well, it doesn't help with your substance.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is, that at every turn, you evade answering legitimate questions
Perhaps a little soul-searching is in order, before condemning an entire generation of educational leaders on a whim
I think, and this is soley as my experience as a parent, that since the abuser was 9 years older than YP, the parents may not have been aware of the extent the abusive MP unleashed on his baby brother.
ReplyDeleteThe abuser would have been at least 11 when he started his abused. Perhaps even older.
Combining his brilliance with his maliciousness it would not have been a great feat to convince the parents something along the lines of, "the baby for in the way,"
Or "the baby fell down" or "I tried to help him, but he was too mischievous for me" etc.
2-4 year olds often have bumps and scrapes and it is has nothing to with abusive and neglectful parents.
And after the abuser was 13, it is not unimaginable how 20 something years ago, the parents entrusted the brilliant, older brother who showed excellence in school performance with the baby brother.
And honestly, who would the parents likely believe? A little 5 year old or the budding talmid chacham, the rabeim raved about in school?
How do you call this a personal attack? Why are you behaving abusive-ly towards me?
ReplyDeleteHe was an adult, at least for all of the abuse I can recall. As to your second question, it's a great one. I would have to give a lot more thought to even formulster an opinion. And that's all it would be. An opinion. I do, believe, though, that if a child's actions indicate he will be a danger as an adult, society should figure out a way to protect itself. How? I have no idea.
ReplyDeleteInteresting spin
ReplyDeleteYehuda, I was just glancing through some of your earlier comments and if I'm reading your timeline correctly you indicated the abuse took place when you were age 17 and your brother is 9 years older than you. Your brother got married so late that he was still living in your parents home at age 26? And a 26 year old was picking up his 17 year old brother (17 year old boys are usually not small) and dropping him? What was the range of your age for the duration of this abuse?
ReplyDeleteThank you for your support.
ReplyDeleteWhile yes, physical abuse is now outdated, I was reffered to the chinuch system that valued good middos, and a good heart.....
ReplyDeleteYes, we have a system that for the most part recognizes different learning disabilities, and will work with in the child's ability to help them attain knowledge.
But the overall emphasis is still, if not more so, the importance of gaining knowledge.
Not exellece in character.
These questions have become voyeuristic and irrelevant.
ReplyDeletePerhaps it is twisted to say this, but this post is so speculative and based on utter nothingness that I don't know how to experience it as anything other than laugh out loud funny. It's been quite an intense couple of weeks, so thanks for the laugh.
ReplyDeleteSo the Pogrows will fix the world. One will solve the shidduch crisis, one was going to teach us all how we should really learn Torah (temporarily derailed by a scandal) and now we have one to solve abuse in our community. I there a brother available to run for president?
ReplyDeleteYes, laughter is a healthy thing. I really am glad you had a good laugh.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, this speculation was based on pure nothingness since I know nothing about your family at all.
But since I can't imagine how any parents could condone abuse, I did my best to be Dan likaf zechus in this crazy situation.
I am a parent, and just I can't imagine parents doing anything intentionally to hurt or allow their children to be hurt.
I don't think the shidduch crisis Pogrow is any relation to these two.
ReplyDeleteHa!
ReplyDeleteOh, so you're walking your comment back? The system is not going to hell? That was quick.
ReplyDeleteAnd good character is the job of the home.
Ya know, it's funny. I never in the past 15 years or so imagined myself ever becoming a public figure. I was really quite content with my quiet finance career. I've found myself in recent days also making note that it is indeed now 3 brothers who have launched initiatives. And I was anticipating a comment such as yours coming forth. I'm actually surprised it didn't come sooner. I have no comment on the NASI initiative (which is to be taken as neither an endorsement nor a detraction), and will let Meir's record and actions speak for themselves. I state clearly that I am not a representative of my family. I have partnered with an incredible woman, Rivka Joseph, but she and I speak only on behalf of our new organization called, "Survivors for Change." In my late-teens and early 20's, I went through a phase when I was upset that I was born in Toronto and could therefore not be President. Since then, two things happened: 1) I learned that it is not clear that I cannot be president, since at the time of my birth in Toronto, I was an immediate US citizen because my parents are both New Yorkers (well what I "learned" was not that I was a citizen upon birth -- but rather that some constitutional scholars believe that someone with my status can indeed be president), and 2) I have no desire any longer to run for public office. What the future holds? Who knows.
ReplyDeleteI do not recall making any previous public statements regarding abuse (if I forget one that I have made, I apologize in advance). Research shows (and I am no expert whatsoever on the subject) that survivors can take a very long time to speak out for a variety of personal reasons. Many never speak out. Part of my mission is to help more survivors discover their strength to speak out, each one, on a case-by-case basis, when they are ready.
ReplyDeleteWhat does it say about you three that you guys feel confident that the whole world has got it wrong, and only guys have the wisdom and courage to get it right - each in a different area. What does it say about you guys that sibling rivalries went so out of control, yet you feel that you guys are the perfect people to single-handedly reform the entire educational and marital systems of the entire Jewish world?
ReplyDeleteTraining and experience are things that guys feel you don't need in order to make you qualified. All you need is scare tactics combined with a good dose of charisma. Neat.
Yet these parents have raised three sons who have taken it upon themselves to lecture everyone about how they all have wrong, and that unless we listen to them, we are all doomed C"V. Hmmm...
ReplyDeleteHonesty, I cannot speak on behalf of "you guys," because I am just me, Yehuda Pogrow. You may want to perform some sort of deep psychological research study combined with an investigative effort to publish a more thoroughly informed opinion about what the dynamics were in my family growing up. It might even be of value to the public!
ReplyDeleteI do appreciate your compliment about charisma. It tends to be overrated, but thank you nonetheless :-)
I intend to do absolutely nothing single-handedly. I intend to lead. A good leader stands out front and inspires people, but does not act alone. If he or she was acting only alone, they wouldn't be a leader of others.
As for your comments regarding Rivka Joseph, I would be way out of line to respond on my own to comments made about her. She's an amazing young woman doing amazing things. I'm not sure whether she will choose to engage in this forum. I leave that decision to her.
As an objective -- and hopefully, educational -- reference, I will share the link below without commentary of my own.
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest
Excerpt from the webpage: "Incest is sexual contact between family members or close relatives.[1][2] This typically includes sexual contact between people in a consanguineous relationship (blood relations), and sometimes those related by affinity, such as individuals of the same household, step relatives, those related by adoption or marriage, or members of the same clan or lineage.[3]"
As a further reference, just in case you haven't already seen the video in which Rivka tells her story, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV0Ip70a7PA
ReplyDeleteYou nailed it.
ReplyDeleteIt took 30 in my case.
ReplyDeleteChayim, If you are so inclined, I would appreciate it if you would join with me, starting by emailing me at the email address detailed in the original version of my article on the TOI website.
ReplyDeleteIs that a fact or an opinion? Because it sounds to me like a statement of fact. If it is a statement of fact, would you be kind enough to provide proof? Thank you, Yehuda
ReplyDeleteWhy not?
ReplyDeleteWow. Will you edit my next piece?
ReplyDeletePlease detail the changes of the last 5 years. I am not asserting that they have not occured. I am asking you to educate me.
ReplyDeleteBrother
ReplyDeleteThe "community" is neither trained nor equipped to handle allegations of crimes. The police are. Will the police make mistakes? Sure. Will the justice system always get it right? OJ was acquitted. But I'm going to go with the pros that make mistakes from time to time over the "community" every single time. Further, "if most of the time a solution which is satisfactory to victim and community can be arranged without going to the police"? Why? Why would a victim of a crime settle for less than a prosecution and conviction. And why would the community want to seek some sort of "arrangement"? Also, and I may be reading too much into your phrasing, but it *almost* sounds like the picture you draw is one in which the victim and community are adversaries. I would think it is the victim and perpetrators who are the natural adversaries in legal proceedings. Please advise if I am misreading your phrasing.
ReplyDeleteAnd some of the police is trained, competent and sensitive. Some of the therapist are competent to deal with abuse. Some of the justice system deals properly with some of the cases. As I have noted it is not the community vs the police. It is not the rabbis or educators against the police. You might want to take some time and see what my nephew's organization Ma'aneh has done. You might want to check our Jewish Community Watch or Amudim. In your spare time you might want to speak with Rav Yaakov Horowitz. You might want to read through the archives here of many abuse cases and how they were handled.
ReplyDeleteMany of the cases require a cooperation on many levels. So while you note that the community and victims are not adversaries - you seem to lack knowledge about the complex dynamics of the components to deal properly with abuse. It is not simply calling the police so that they can put the abuser away in jail for years.
You seem ignorant and naive - though clearly sincere in your desire to help - as to what actually goes on in real life. Please spend more time finding out what the reality is before you announce that you are leading a mass movement to save the victims .
To be a competent leader it is not sufficient to have a desire to help and have a white horse and be able to scream "charge". It helps to note what is needed and what should be done before offering a solution.
Yehuda are you familiar with the story of Stone Soup?
ReplyDeleteYou are working backwards. First you announce a solution and an organization that you are leading to deal with the problem and then you ask to be informed what the actual facts and issues are. That is not only absurd but it can be harmful to the cause of the past and future victims. There is no necessity for you to lead anyone or to have your own organization - just because your brother dropped you on the floor 30 years ago. As Abraham Maslow said many years ago, If the only tool you have is a hammer - everything looks like a nail. Please acquire additional tools before you bash people.
I repeat my request for you to educate me with details of the changes over the past 5 years. I always want to learn, even in areas where I have so-called "expertise". My supervisors in my finance jobs throughout my finance career would certainly back me on that.
ReplyDeleteWith the white horse comment, you mixed your metaphors.
ReplyDeleteNice to see you pay attention to what I write
ReplyDeleteI have to commend you on your ability to tolerate and analyze criticism. Many if not most in your position would simply lash out at any pushback and resort to name-calling. You handle yourself well.
ReplyDeleteI pray that God continues to give you the strength to fully heal and to be a source of encouragement and inspiration to all who share in your pain.
Yehuda I am glad to hear that you always want to learn. if I thought what you were doing was important than I would drop everything to be at your service. In the mean time I would suggest you take the time to read through the archives on the blog.
ReplyDeleteThank you.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct: I do not know extensive detail about the history of how abuse is handled in the Yeshiva system. I just know enough of the horror stories and cover-ups to know that the system is corrupt, and has been for decades. But here's how it's going to work by the time my fellows on the right side of this issue and I are done fighting this fight: As soon as a child makes an allegation, the cops are called. Just like when the fire alarm goes off, the fire engines start their sirens screaming. After the cops are called, we can start dealing with the "complex dynamics." And I would of course welcome any contributions your nephew or Rabbi Horowitz have to offer about how to address the "complex dynamics."
ReplyDeleteI have shared my story of my mother molesting me as a young boy. The public may read it here: https://www.facebook.com/survivorspeakingout/
ReplyDeleteJust awful.
ReplyDeleteDid not know.
ReplyDelete