It looks like Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky and his son have gotten away with the equivalent of halachic murder as well as the betrayal of Tamar Epstein and Adam Fleisher whom they encouraged to marry with a phony heter. The betrayal also extends to Rav Nota Greenblatt whom they persuaded to give the heter with a false psychiatric report and who now remains standing with the bag of smelly garbage and the contempt of rabbis around the world. Rav Shmuel is being viewed as a tzadik for his retraction - despite the fact that he has not apologized for the horrible slander against the first husband as well as the corruption of the halachic process.
In short - the gedolim are sighing a sigh of relief after finding a modest fig leaf to welcome him back.
http://www.kikar.co.il/196270.html#
My rough translation:
Rav Kaminetsky has rejected the Heter and visited gedolim in Israel
The rosh yeshiva of Philadelphia recently announced that he was rejecting the Heter to annul a marriage and the woman is in fact still married to the first husband. Following this he visited today Rav Steinman and Rav Kaniefsky.
After a long time of turmoil and halachic discussion in Israel and the rest of the world concerning the bitul kiddushin in America - Rav Kaminetsky announced last week that he was retracting his support for the heter that he had given to annul the marriage. He said did this because he was accepting the psak of Rav Dovid Feinstein that the heter was worthless ...
Thus he joined the view of poskim and gedolim around the world that there was absolutely no validity to the heter. The most important ones being Rav Chaim Kaniefsky and Rav Moshe Sternbuch and Rav Malkiel Kotler who had written sharp words against the Heter.
As a consequence of his retraction in this matter he was able to have a private audience today in the homes of gedolim in Bnei Brak including Rav Kaniefsky, Rav Steinman and Rav Eidelstein
It should be noted that by relying on this heter it has created a terrible problem for the woman who remarried based on it because she is still married to the first husband. However all indications are that the woman is still remaining with her second husband - relying on the heter that had been given to her by Rav Nota Greenblatt that the first marriage never existed - and he is still holding that the heter is valid.
הגר"ש קמינצקי חזר בו מההיתר וביקר אצל גדולי ישראל
ראש ישיבת פלדלפיה הגאון רבי שמואל קמינצק, הודיע לאחרונה כי הוא חוזר בו מההיתר להפקעת הקידושין וכי האישה אשת איש, בעקבות זאת ביקר היום אצל מרנן הגראי"ל והגר"ח (חדשות חרדים)
סערת ביטול הקידושין בארה"ב ממשיכה להסעיר את הציבור החרדי בארץ
ובתפוצות. לאחר תקופה ארוכה של דין ודברים ומשא ומתן הלכתי ארוך, הודיע
בשבוע שעבר הגאון הגדול הגר"ש קמינצקי ראש ישיבת פלדילפיה וממנהיגי היהדות
החרדית באמריקה, כי הוא חוזר בו מההיתר שנתן לאשה לבטל את הקידושין וכי הוא
סומך את ידו על פסק ההלכה של הגאון רבי דוד פיינשטיין הסובר כמו כלל גדולי
ישראל שהקידושין תקפים והביטול לא חל.
במכתבו כותב הגר"ש קמינצקי
"זה עתה קיבלתי פסק הבית דין בראשות הג"ר דוד פיינשטיין ובאתי בזה להודיע
שוודאי כאשר הורו כן יקום וכמו שכתב אאמו"ר שליט"א וכבר מסרתי פסק הבי"ד
לבעל הדבר שאין תוקף לביטול הקידושין כלל וכלל ולשומעים ינעם ותבוא אליהם
ברכת טוב וה' יגדור פרצות עם ישראל.
בכך חוזר בו הגר"ש קמינצקי מהוראתו להתיר את ביטול קידושי בני הזוג
ומצטרף לדעתם של כלל גדולי ישראל מהארץ ומהעולם, שטענו כי אין להפקיע
קידושין ובראשם מרנן שר התורה הגר"ח קנייבסקי, הראב"ד הגר"מ שטרנבוך והגר"מ
קוטלר שכתבו בלשונות חריפים כנגד ההיתר.
לאור ההסדר והחזרה בו
מדבריו הגיע היום הגר"ש קמינצקי לביקור מיוחד בבתיהם של גדולי הדור בבני
ברק וביניהם מרנן ראש הישיבה הגראי"ל שטיינמן,שר התורה הגר"ח קנייבסקי,
והגרי"ג אדלשטיין.
יצויין, שעל סמך אותו היתר של ביטול הקידושין בשל בעיות נפשיות אצל הבעל התחתנה האשה לאחרונה וכעת היא נשואה לבעל אחר.
האשה
מסתמכת עדיין ככל הנראה על ההיתר שהעניק לה הפוסק רבי נתן גרינבלט, שהפקיע
וביטל את הקידושין הראשונים ועדיין נשאר איתן בדעתו שכך היה עליו לעשות.
Where does this leave the Kaminetzskys regarding the Epsteins? Has that well run dry?
ReplyDeleteWhat did one expect to happen? Is this at all surprising? Rabbi Kaminetsky is still an honored member of the Moetzes. He is an honored member of the Big Boys Club. He can do no wrong. He slipped a little but was grabbed and picked up quickly.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the lives he ruined along the way?
Aharon?
Tamar?
Their Daughter?
Poor Adam?
Big deal.
Easy come.. easy go.
But Torah - you don't need to worry. There are still people like Harav Eidenson Shlita who continue to support and defend you. Ad Bias Goail Tzedek Bimhaira Beyamanu.
You are mixing. Up father with son Shalom retracted Sam didn't. The grapevine says he told. Mrs epstein Tamar`s mother that she can still rely on nota greenblat
ReplyDeleteit seems like an orchestrated scheme between RSK and RNG. kind of the "good cop bad cop partnership". As long as Tamar has a rabbi to rely on she feels that she doesnt need to separate from Adam Fleischer. I would still like to see a letter from RSK that he retracts, and then post it everywhere so if a mamzer is born, everyone will be informed.
ReplyDeleteWho is Rav Chaim Kaminetsky? Are all gedoilim changing their names to Kaminetzky?
ReplyDeleteOf course she's holding that the heter is valid. Why not? Up until now 1000 Rabbis held that the heter is worthless and the Kaminetzkies showed that we don't need to phased by that so why should she now be phased by 1003? It says in hilchos Rosh hashana that a sinner may not be the baal tefilla unmless he did teshuva. What do you think the tzinur needs to see in order to know that he did teshuva. Of course he is now saying that he did teshuva. That's evident by the very fact that he wants do be the baal teffila. We need to see him do a saider hateshuva such as is prescribed in various sources for each avairah. So everybody should know that the kaminetzkies are still disqualified for being the baal tefilla on yomim noraim.
ReplyDeleteMy understanding is that Rav Steinman and Rav Kaniefsky are simply not aware off all the goings on and their people aren't telling them for whatever reason of their own or out of pressure applied on them or who knows.
ReplyDeleteI'm posting again and again because I am so appalled that I can't calm down. The Torah has been desecrated and all is hunky dory. Their hand was forced so they say 'never mind' and that seems to suffice in the hastoras panim of our times. I can't stomach it.
ReplyDeleteWho issued that Hebrew report? One of the so-called Chareidi news websites?
ReplyDeleteOne should consider what would happen if they were able to keep the details/evidence of the case private.
ReplyDeleteProbably yes...
ReplyDeleteWhen Shaul haMelech pleaded with Shmuel haNavi to tag along with him to the zevach after allowing Agog and the sheep to survive, he still was stripped of the Mluchah. I don't understand what it means RSK *joined* the Gedoilei haPoskim RCK, RM Shternbuch, R S Miller, RMK. did he have a choice?
ReplyDeleteRSK was *stripped* of his phony psak and phony Heter of Hakol Shkarim and RDF declared it Worthless. Who in the world would take a Chazir to a Rav asking a Shayla of whether it's Kosher even if it is poshet tlafav with shosa'as shessa meutef betalis shekula tcheiles, with a nezem zahav and a chumoz covering it's mouth, it is still and all vegeiro lo yigor. Furthermore, how is it that the Eishes Ish and the Paramour still continue living in sin ve'ein potze peh umtzaftzef? Declaring it *Worthless* is not a harmless stance of an innocent state, it entails of a whole bunch of wrongdoings, lies, swindle, falsifications, maliciously accusing the innocent husband, motzi shem ra, lifnei iver lo siten michshol of eishes ish along with kol aveiros shebeolam of which is still sitting in the throat. This is insulting our intelligence.How is this different from Toivel veShretz beyodo? Blowing a bubble in the air wishing it will land on the ears of the ba'alei dovor along with a conditional bracha does not do the trick nor undo a thing. I am baffled, or is this another fast one? Could they have possibly been me'aber Adar Gimmel for another Purim? I cannot believe that this FIASCO is put to rest AS IS by RM Shternbuch, R S Miller, R' M Kotler, BBD, along with the rest of the Chorum. What are we mising, it just doesn't add up. Midrash Pliah that begs for explanation if it only has any. Hayom yom shekilkelu halviyim beshir.
Sounds like a similar story I once heard. Two baalei dinim came to the Rav and listened them out, and to each he paskened you are in the right. The Rebetzin overheard and came running, how could both be right? The Rav replies to her, you are also right.
The author of the Hebrew article imagines that R Shmuel wrote the letter, but actually R Sholom wrote it. So how does he know what R Shmuel himself has said?
ReplyDeleteAlso, according to the rough translation R Shmuel used the generous, emphatic term "worthless" while the Hebrew has him using the much blander words "הביטול לא חל"
Did he ever retract from his written statement made public that RNG is a bar samche?
ReplyDeleteand their people aren't telling them for whatever reason
ReplyDeleteShimmy Glick's money for Torah institutions.
If, as Harry and OTT say, RALS & RCK didn't hear the whole story, why won't the rabbinic opponents visit them, or at least write to them, and spill all the beans? How about the rabbis from BB, like R Rosenberg, or someone more senior?
ReplyDeleteThe betrayal also extends to Rav Nota Greenblatt whom they persuaded to give the heter with a false psychiatric report and who now remains standing with the bag of smelly garbage and the contempt of rabbis around the world.
ReplyDeleteWhy is this betrayal of RNG. They duped and fooled him. At this point, RNG is responsible for not saying he was duped. He is responsible for not being able to imagine that he did not have the Siyata d'Shmaya to prevent him from such a grave error.
This Kikar article is extremely sloppy with the facts. It makes it appear that RSK joined the general gedolim who hold that one may not "mafkia kiddushin". This is wrong. RSK agreed to follow the psak of RDF that there is no validity to the "hafkoas kidushin" in this case. Neither RDF nor RSK are among those that hold that "ein lehafkia kidushin".
ReplyDeleteEven worse is that it claims that RSK retracted from the hetter. He never gave any hetter.
hey Nathan... where are you? Where is the latest from the grapevine. The world is in turmoil, it seems coming to an end. This whole situation is pele betoch pliah. It is erev leil shishi, some tcholent with kishke, diet cucumber salad, and we boy, do we need need to talk. Hashmiini na es koilech, daber na bevakasha....yesh li scharschoret
ReplyDeleteSeems like "Aval achinu ato" all over again. Something is rotten in Denmark, and smells all the way here.
ReplyDeleteDidn't Rav Nota tell Rabbi Hershel Schachter that he was duped?
ReplyDeletehey Nathan... where are you? Where is the latest from the grapevine. The world is in turmoil, it seems coming to an end. This whole situation is pele betoch pliah. It is erev leil shishi, some tcholent with kishke, diet cucumber salad, and we boy, do we need need to talk. Hashmiini na es koilech, daber na bevakasha....yesh li scharschoret
ReplyDeleteEven worse is that it claims that RSK retracted from the hetter. He never gave any hetter.
ReplyDeleteLet me help you with that one:
Even worse is that it claims that RSK retracted from the hetter's supposed validity. He never retracted from it being reliable.
Uch. Uch. Uch.
ReplyDeleteis the kavod so worth it? To debase yourself so much? To cling with all your might to your last vestige of self respect as a gadol?
To run to kasher your self image, rather than to confront the truth that you and your son have served only as a nuisance to proper peaceful divorce proceedings and abetted a young girl and her family whom just couldn't play according to the rules is more detrimental to your self image.
What happened to the gevura of emes? The value of being willing to throw away your own personal kavod in the face of the kavod of the Torah?
מוּטָב לִי לְהִקָּרֵא שׁוֹטֶה כָּל יָמַי, וְלֹא לֵעָשׂוֹת שָׁעָה אַחַת רָשָׁע לִפְנֵי הַמָּקוֹם
Is the frock and Homburg so alluring??
How can someone be so out of touch with his role in a Parsha that had singlehandedly shaken thousands of Yungeleit and baalei batims basic trust in Gedolei Yisroel. Issue a statement, speak about it openly, address it head on that people are legitimately bothered by this.
Klal Yisroel deserves gedolei Yisroel that we don't have to actively ignore details that make us feel uncomfortable in order to accept their leadership. Rav Moshe was naki. R Yaakov was naki. R Ahron was naki.
I could almost hear the rumblings from underneath the mountain of a big eruption happening soon. Sheker ein lo raglayim and The Poskim will be at it again. Half baked stories kneaded with more lies will boomerang back into their faces. Va'atzas H' hi tokum. RNG still floating with some wiggle room will not prevail. The Rosh Yeshiva R' Sloveichik from Brisker Yeshiva was right.
ReplyDeleteCan't prove it I said the grapevine
ReplyDeleteHe might of told him privately that he would not have issued the "heter" had he been aware of the true facts. At this point, why shouldn't RNG be responsible for refusing to retract? He was betrayed in the past. Not now.
ReplyDeleteWhat a silly old man hobnobbing ,if he had any sense he would be busy working to separate them . He might have a few months to party and then g-d forbid he might be left with the legacy . I shudder to think what type of hetterim and akiras hatorah will be utilised to be mattir post facto . and will the moetzes and the old boys network still stand behind them then?. seems to me like he's not worried much, seems like he thinks he will get away with it in any eventuality .frightening.
ReplyDeleteWorking hard to separate them ha? Seems like he's got some time for a vacation ? Or is photo ops with the marans a matter which is crucial to the future of klall yisroel?.
ReplyDeleteWhile why does every halachic or religious matter rubberstamped by the marans of some politicians choosing? Are they a sanhedrin of one?
ReplyDeleteProof is in the pudding. She's still married to the guy.
ReplyDeletehere is the report that RAF was lied to. The lie apparently went over well, (at least for a while). How are we to know that the same thing didn't happen to RALS & RCK & RYGE?
ReplyDeleteAnd how are we to know that the same thing didn't happen to the writer for kikar s?
Now kikar is singing a different song. Can you find the changes?
ReplyDeleteסערת ביטול הקידושין בארה"ב ממשיכה להסעיר את הציבור החרדי בארץ ובתפוצות. לאחר תקופה ארוכה של דין ודברים ומשא ומתן הלכתי ארוך, הודיע בשבוע שעבר הגר"ש קמינצקי כי הוא חוזר בו מההיתר שנתן לאשה לבטל את הקידושין וכי הוא סומך את ידו על פסק ההלכה של הגאון רבי דוד פיינשטיין הסובר כמו כלל גדולי ישראל שהקידושין תקפים והביטול לא חל.
במכתבו כותב הגר"ש קמינצקי: "זה עתה קיבלתי פסק הבית דין בראשות הג"ר דוד פיינשטיין ובאתי בזה להודיע שוודאי כאשר הורו כן יקום וכמו שכתב אאמו"ר שליט"א וכבר מסרתי פסק הבי"ד לבעל הדבר שאין תוקף לביטול הקידושין כלל וכלל ולשומעים ינעם ותבוא אליהם ברכת טוב וה' יגדור פרצות עם ישראל.
[image of letter]
בכך חוזר בו הגר"ש קמינצקי מהוראתו להתיר את ביטול קידושי בני הזוג ומצטרף לדעתם של כלל גדולי ישראל מהארץ ומהעולם, שטענו כי אין להפקיע קידושין ובראשם מרנן שר התורה הגר"ח קנייבסקי, הראב"ד הגר"מ שטרנבוך והגר"מ קוטלר שכתבו בלשונות חריפים כנגד ההיתר.
יצוין כי הגאון רבי שמואל קמינצקי גיבה את הפסק של בנו.
לאור ההסדר והחזרה בו מדבריו הגיע היום אביו ראש ישיבת פלדילפיה וממנהיגי היהדות החרדית באמריקה הגר"ש קמינצקי לביקור מיוחד בבתיהם של גדולי הדור בבני ברק וביניהם מרנן ראש הישיבה הגראי"ל שטיינמן, שר התורה הגר"ח קנייבסקי, והגרי"ג אדלשטיין.
יצויין, שעל סמך אותו היתר של ביטול הקידושין בשל בעיות נפשיות אצל הבעל התחתנה האשה לאחרונה וכעת היא נשואה לבעל אחר.
האישה מסתמכת עדיין ככל הנראה על ההיתר שהעניק לה הפוסק רבי נתן גרינבלט, שהפקיע וביטל את הקידושין הראשונים ועדיין נשאר איתן בדעתו שכך היה עליו לעשות.
The first paragraph no longer reports on הודיע בשבוע שעבר הגאון הגדול הגר"ש קמינצקי ראש ישיבת פלדילפיה וממנהיגי היהדות החרדית באמריקה, RShm, but rather הודיע בשבוע שעבר הגר"ש קמינצקי - RSho.
Then there is the addition of
יצוין כי הגאון רבי שמואל קמינצקי גיבה את הפסק של בנו. - which is also a touch-up, and no document is produced - not even the son writing in his father's name, as in the other document which has הסכים אבי (or something like that).
So all the article shows is that the junior mattir "retracted". This is news?
If you read carefully you can see that the paragraphs of the updated article don't flow. BUT DON'T take my word for it. Look it up before they change it again.
Did these gedolei Eretz Yisroel now also lose their kashrus? Don't know, (perhaps according to Rav Gestetner. ...) but one thing I do, is that Halacha remains Halacha. ...
ReplyDeleteWondering what Reb Avrohom Yehoshua will say here.....
ReplyDeleteClick on his /link/slot....he'll "hear" you better. ...
ReplyDeleteHow can you split validity from reliability? ...
ReplyDeleteWho's this?
ReplyDeleteA Gutte ta'anah!...
ReplyDeleteHow can we prove that TE is still with her boyfriend? ...
ReplyDeleteThis says more about R' Kanievsky, R'
ReplyDeleteShteinman, and R' Eidelstein then about R' Kaminetzky. How could they possibly even contemplate to meet him? They certainly are aware of his dealings, it's a disgrace for them to acknowledge him and bestow such honor to him personally - especially now. They must also be whoa-fully corrupt themselves and now have exhibited that they are accomplices and accessories to his crime. They should've shunned him until he retracts and apologized for his actions. We must publicly denounce these "Gedolim". They are nothing more then attention seekers (always in the news, centerfold pictures), who twist Halacha for their own conveniences and prestige. R' Kanievsky, R' Steinman, and R' Eidelstein can join the long list of phony "Gedolim" such as R' Dovid Feinstien, R' Hillel David, The Silent Agudas Yisroel of America, R' Brodsky, among many others. Come to think of it, the people who aren't corrupt are few and far between. Sad world........
Has rav miller fallen asleep, I'm waiting to see his name on some paperwork
ReplyDeleteSome rotten Danish herring odur eminating from some litvacks houses in benei beraq
ReplyDeleteAnd a fire errupts mothe and baby in ICU
"Never mind"
ReplyDeleteEmily Litella (Gilda Radner z"l) lives!
I LOVE IT.
Before they have 2 words in edgewise they will be whisked out by the fellows who want top keep the info away from these Rabbis. As far as senior rabbis....... fill in the blanks yourself.
ReplyDeleteI know exactly how you feel Harry. But I take solace in two statements in Pirkei Avos because I've seen them to be true in regard to two rabbis involved with the DC Mikvah. One rabbi was punished midah keneged midah because he declined to tell anyone something Barry Freundel reneged upon because "he could not cause the congregation to lose faith in the rabbinate". This rabbi's son was ousted from his pulpit when the congregation turned against him for something that later proved to be false. And of course (almost) everyone knows where Freundel is for the next 5 years.
ReplyDeletePirkei Avos 2:21 "He [Rabbi Tarfon] used to say: It is not upon you to complete the task, but you are not free to idle from it." & 1:7 ""Nittai
of Arbel said, distance yourself from a bad neighbor, do not befriend a
wicked person, and do not despair of punishment."
Please click on the link. It's R. Leib Tropper Shaking Rav Chaim Kanievsky's hand.
ReplyDeleteCan you say that again please?
ReplyDeleteSeems there is a vehevei zahir begachlatan, also possible that the Computers exploded. A refuah shleima for both. The world needs a gevaldig Rachmei Shamayim with all that's going on.
ReplyDeleteTill then have drink of his beer and relax. Give it a chance, it's the calm before the storm. This cannot and will not prevail.
ReplyDeleteI never thought I'd say that perhaps we should have 'gedolim elections'.......help
ReplyDelete...
He would say, " Im haRav dome lemalach H' ", and should close shop immediately. At the rate these are going, he will end up the last one closing the light.
ReplyDeletePerhaps it's not a photo-op, but a consultation on how to best deal with TE going forward. Didn't think of that?
ReplyDeleteולא יכלו דברו לשלום
Some food for thought (if anyone still has time to think):
ReplyDeleteIf someone would be interested in making sure that this heter loses all validity, what do you think would be more effective at this point: 1) proving that the Kamenetzkys really do hold of the heter and are just decieving everyone that they retracted, or 2) applauding them for finally realizing the truth and praising them for their courageous stance in backing down at the expense of facing TE and her family?
If someone would be interested in discrediting and dethroning the Kamenetzkys that they long despise (for their views on other issues, and for action taken in other areas), what do you think would be more effective at this point: 1) proving that the Kamenetzkys really do hold of the heter and are just decieving everyone that they retracted, or 2) applauding them for finally realizing the truth and praising them for their courageous stance in backing down at the expense of facing TE and her family?
Not splitting either. They accept RDF's psak for themselves. (Well, at least they claim that they do. You know, it's not really relevant to them, somehow.) However, for the "MO" Tamar, she may follow the bar samche RNG. That's their position - that he is reliable and that what he says is valid.
ReplyDeleteYou missed a word in the passuk you mentioned.
ReplyDeleteכן דרך אשה מנאפת אכלה ומחתה פיה ואמרה לא פעלתי און .
I think that the passuk that is more related would be that of יהודה saying צדקה ממני. It takes a lot to admit a mistake, and I give R Shmuel credit for just that.
Sorry no blood. For some of you here, it is just a blood sport. A sport of דאזיל סומקא ואתי חיוורא.
About the passuk.
יש להבין המשל בכלל. שלשה המה נפלאו ממני וארבעה לא ידעתים דרך הנשר בשמים דרך נחש עלי צור דרך אניה בלב ים ודרך גבר בעלמה כן דרך אשה מנאפת אכלה ומחתה פיה ואמרה לא פעלתי און.
ויש להעיר איך השלשה נפלאו ומה נשתנה הרביעי ומה הדרך גבר בעלמה . ומה הביאור כן דרך אשה מנאפת. וכי איזה קשר אשה מנאפת להתחלת המשל. ומי שרוצה לדעת ביאור המשל ישאל ואענה ביאור יפה במשל זה.
Most peculiar “R Shmuel Kaminetsky- welcomed with open arms by Rav Steinman and Rav Kaniefsky after publicly disowning the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt heter”
ReplyDeleteI quote Leviticus 20:10:
“If a man commits adultery with a married woman, committing adultery with another man’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.”
I quote the Hertz Chumash on Leviticus 20:10:
“The repetition of the phrase and the substitution of “another man’s wife” for “a married woman” stress the heinousness of the offense. The consent of the husband is quite immaterial. Marriage is not merely a ‘contract’; it is a consecration, and adultery is far more than merely an offense against one of the parties to a contract. It is an offense against the Divine Command proclaimed at Sinai, and constitutes the annihilation of holiness in marriage.”
All I see is some young man standing straight...
ReplyDeleteThe was afraid that we would only be left with Trump closing up shop.
ReplyDeleteAh, Drumpffff!!!!
Click on the link. https://www.flickr.com/photos/leibtropper/8270171389/
ReplyDeleteI guess that the way Disqus and flicker work, this picture enters the actual post.
What courage are you referring to? In what sense are they backing
ReplyDeletedown?
Until such a time as RSKx2 state publicly and unequivocally that TE must separate immediately from her adultery with her boyfriend they should be continued to be attacked and shunned.
ReplyDeleteI suspect that Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky and Rabbi Shalom Kamenetsky, and some others, are relying on some other basis than "the Heter" for permitting Tamar Epstein to remarry.
ReplyDeleteIn other words, they never considered the Heter as the sole basis for permitting her remarriage.
I spoke to Rabbi Shalom Kamenetsky after the announcement "Tamar is Free". There's a post on this blog about it. I asked him if he would agree with me that a Get had not been given. For some reason, he declined to say.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/05/tamar-epstein-is-free-according-to.html?m=1
At the end of the day, nothing has been rectified. All that happened is that they added another ring to the circus and the show goes on as if business as usual.
ReplyDeleteRSK told Bedat"z Yam he will accept R' Dovid's psak. From what *has* been disclosed of it, is insufficient since the eloped still live happily together ever after. RSK probably got a half baked letter from R' DF that Father & Son do comply. They must have collected some more letters from other chavrei Moetzet that everything is peachy keen. In reality, RNG admitted that if the INFO relayed from the RSK's are bogus then his psak is not in effect. The Adam's and Eve have'nt even a fig leaf for any cover, still and all it's business as usual. This sad state of affairs has to be that the machers duped RCK with Shalom's letters like AvShalom's letters, else why would he agree with the Adam's state of Affairs, Affairs tartei mashma. Soon R' Chaim will be notified of this whole swindle and set this FIASCO into a MEDURA of BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS, veamos hasipim *Yaniu*. We are in the shloshim yo koden hachag and we must do house cleaning and BIUR CHAMINETZ. This circular Circus must stop before everything is destroyed. We ask of the true Gedoilei haPoskim, please do not let this happen. TY
What we learn from this story and from Lonna Kin is 2 women who obviously have themselves a mental problem and therefore are prime juicy material in the arsenal of ORA. You see, what normal woman after the world stands against her GETLESS remarriage and proclaim that her future children will be mamzeirim will stay married and not separate? What woman after trying to torture her husband with multiple ORA rallies, internet defamation, kicking him out of shul and without any good affect, and he remarries (Meir) , would continue with the same strategy which doesnt produce results? Its either evilness or plain moronic. The irony in both the Lonna kin and Tamar Friedman cases are that had we had them evaluated by good psychiatrists, we would find that they are the ones that suffer PERSONALITY DISORDERS and not their husbands.
ReplyDeleteDo the Kaminetzkys still support the 'marriage' now when the publicly conceded. If they don't then we should hear something from the moetzes.
ReplyDeleteIt may well be the case that in private they support the BITUL and they had to publicly concede because of pressure from some of the talmidim.
חזקה
ReplyDeleteor 2) applauding them for finally realizing the truth ?!?!
ReplyDeleteThere was never any question here about the truth. This was simply an act of rishus and kalus rosh. For us to pretend that we accept that there could have been a mistake here is opening up this to happening again and again.
I did not ever despise the Kaminetzkies. I always believed what I heard about the senior Kaminetzky because why should I doubt it? but now I hold him in the lowest regard because he showed colors which are appalling and shocking and revealing that there is no yiras shomayim and no regard whatsoever for The Torah.
1) proving that the Kamenetzkys really do hold of the heter ?!?!
Of course they don't - that is if they could have a moment of honesty. Nobody could possibly hold of it.
But there is a third choice
3)Proving that the Kamenetzkys couldn't care if the heter is valid or not and only because of that could they have entertained the possibility of doing what they did. This is the truth and if every fake rov would know that everybody knows this and can't be fooled fooled they would be deterred from doing such things.
As the saying goes, " Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. "...
ReplyDeleteTremendous anav, en hochi nammy, I did, however, ask Yudel Shain from Yudelstake.blogspot.com yesterday (not sure, though, if he has any original information independent from here.....), and he said that they pair are still pairing together, and the Kamenetskys told Greenblatt to not retract. I hope I am wrong, but others are sure otherwise. I think that someone should hire a private investigator...
ReplyDeleteAh, now I see, thank you.
ReplyDeleteCan Rav Chaim Kanievsky and the other gedolim of B'nai Brak be approached?
Sad: “It looks like Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky and his son have gotten away with the equivalent of halachic murder as well as the betrayal of Tamar Epstein and Adam Fleisher whom they encouraged to marry with a phony heter.”
ReplyDeleteFrom old blog: “A number of commentators have complained that before criticizing Rav Shmuel and Shalom Kaminetsky (her main rabbinical advisors) they should be contacted to hear their explanation. As has been reported a number of times - they were in fact contacted and they did not offer a meaningful explanation. The following is a report by one of our regular participants - Joe Orlow - of what happened when he called up for an explanation….Rabbi Bleich in his discussion of Rabbi Rackman's "getless divorce" said Rabbi Rackman claimed that when a husband won't give a get on demand it "proves" he suffers from an unbearable blemish of cruelty that no normal person would marry if she had known about it. Upon finding about it after marriage the marriage declared simply never having existed.”
The radical feminists are getting away with the complete ruin of so many. Sad. Of course we still don’t have a meaningful explanation of Kaminetskys and Greenblatt’s support of Tamar’s remarriage. The radical feminist supporters of the Mendel Epstein et al forced gets for 30 years never gave a meaningful explanation. Only the FBI stopped forced gets. What could stop adultery?
I see none of you understood my point.
ReplyDeleteFor the past half year there have been many people fighting the heter, each with a different agenda. In fighting the heter there was aproblem, that since such a prominent personality as Rav Kamenetzky seemed to back it, there was fear that the heter would remain permanent and would create precedent etc. Now that Rav kamenetzky has retracted from his backing, we now have a basically unanimous opposition to the heter.
If your goal for the past six months has been to fight the heter, and not to fight the Kamenetzkys, I think the appropriate step now should be to declare that baruch Hashem now even the chashuve Kamenetzkys agree that the heter has no validity, and the only one supporting it is some rav from Memphis who was not that important before this story began.
To sit now and bash them and try to prove that they did not really back down, and they really do hold of the heter, is counterproductive to what you're trying to accomplish.
If, however, your goal was never to fight the heter, but to dethrone the Kamenetzkys, then by all means let everyone know that they still hold of the heter, which will make them possul by some people, but will also help create a precedent that such a chasuve rosh yeshiva held of such a heter. But who cares? As long as we got them good, who cares about ehishes ish? The main thing is to save klal Yisrael from these phonies.
Isee youmissed the point
ReplyDeleteHe did not reject the heter
He did not say it was mistaken
He did not acknowledge the corruption of halacha
He did not say Tamar is an adultress
He did not say to separate
He simply said he accepts that R Dovid says it is worthless
I don't think it is correct to say that the Rov from Memphis was unimportant before (or since) the heter, with or without Rav Kaminetzky's backing.
ReplyDeleteSo your interest right now is to make sure for the record that a senior member of the Moetzes Gedola Hatorah, ans the senior rosh yeshiva in the US holds of the heter, even though he said he was never matir. And you will fight anyone who tries to convince you that he is against the heter. You are serbing the interests of Rackman. And you think that you are fighting the heter?
ReplyDeleteHe did not say berabim that he sinned.
ReplyDeleteHe did not admit that the heter NEVER had a hava amina of a leg to stand on
He is not showing remorse or humility
He has not shown the public that he has written an open letter to Greenblat clarifying that there was no basisd for the heter and that he deceived him
If we at this point allow him to continue to be a gadol or if we accept him at any level, we are saying that we aren't very bothered about what he did. Would you take this stance if he killed your best friend bemaizid in cold blood? Why do you care so little that he desecrated The Torah bemaizid and destroyed lives and defiled kedushas Yisroel in total callousness?
Someone should cable R Wreckman that a woman that is so concerned about getting a Get upon demand just for the asking, should make sure upfront and ask so from her prospect before he is entrapped into a sick bed. Then let's see if any *normal* man would want to marry such to begin with. No need to wreck someones life and rob away his toil and family with children after the facts just because she wakes up one morning thinking she can do better. That is the essence of shemo nosno eineho beachar, especially if she says so. If she doesn't like the TORAH way, no need to apply. Good riddance.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know if TE did any better after her first time?
you really don't get it. Why not substitute my name as the architect of the heter. That after making an organized attack on the sanctify and ethical values of Aharon Friedman - I decided to manufacture a heter through lies and my status as talmid chachom. I transgressed a number of elementary halachos in the process. I was reponsible for a woman who trusted me to become and adulteress and her children to be mamzerim.
ReplyDeleteNow it has been revealed that the heter is universally rejected with attendant anger and distress. I succeeded in destroy or severly damaging emunas chachomim in the many Jews who follow my blog. - would you consider it sufficient for me to say. I agree to accept the psak of Rav Dovid Feinstein but I will not put that in writing and I will never say I made a mistake or that I think the heter is not good. I will simply smile and act as if nothing had happened?
If you answer yes to the above I feel confident to state that you are a liar.
Perhaps it's not a photo-op, but a consultation on how to best deal with TE going forward.
ReplyDeleteUp-most stupidity. He had all the time to consult with these people before today. Why do you keep on lying.
A side point: This was not a one time mistake of RSK. This is calculated and deceitful behavior over a period of years. Anyone that thinks RSK is a gadol needs their head examined.
ReplyDeleteThe S. Kaminetzskys denigrated the heritage of Reb Yaakov Kaminetzsky, zt'l, and besmirched the reputation of the Philadelphia Yeshiva because of a spoiled brat who needed a stamp of approval for her scheme to avoid giving her ex the visitation with his daughter a Bais Din would have granted and still satisfy her carnal desires. They were cowards who would not do it themselves because their special interest would have been blatant! So they found a patsy in Memphis to dupe into doing their dirty work with an emphasis on DIRT, Who did they think they fooling?
ReplyDeleteIn Monsey there used to be a very well respected "frum" man who taught Daf Yomi and sold meat under a hechsher from an ehrlicher Rav. The meat was found to be TREIF and the Rav Hamachshir announced it to the entire community! People had to throw out dishes and kasher pots. How is what S. Kaminetzsky did less any less a breach of trust? (BTW, the Rav Hamachshir told his other clients he did not feel he could give a hechsher after being fooled like this. Some clients left but others said they did not blame him, any rav would have been duped, and that it was to his credit he accepted responsibility).
The Kaminetzsky used and tricked Rav Nota Greenblatt. His failing was he was too naive and trusting. He is most likely too chagrined and embarrassed to admit how badly he erred. Mr. Shmuel Kaminetzsky and his son need to admit this and beg Rabbi Greenblatt's forgiveness.
Well, we are hoping that it will fit the category of chazakah ho'asuyah l'hishtanos that is not accorded the halachic power of chazakah. .....I think, here, an investigator would be of help...
ReplyDeleteThis volley ball game seems to go on and on, and as long as the players keep on bouncing and passing it around like a hot potato the game is alive and well. Even though everyone agrees that The Emperor has no clothes, they still parade him around as wearing the cloth of the finest silk.
ReplyDeleteAl shlosha pishei ysirael veal arba'a lo ashivam, al michrom Tzadik bakessef ... sorayich sorerim vechavrei ganovim kulo ohev shochad verodfei $halmonim. Eicho hoyso lezonah kiryoh ne'emono... Hoy goy chote am keved avon zera mreim ra bonim mashchisim. Mi bikesh zos miyedchem remos chatzeroy. Did R' Dovid ask the Kams if they are knowledgeble betiv gitin vekidushin? How many times in his lifetime did RNG perform bitul kidushin? Where did he get shimush in such?
It is time to call Mi La-H' elay over again. Sefer Torah shebeHeichal is engulfed in fire, everyone tramples on it and does what they want bresh gli ubresh kol chutzot. Someone please organize protests hen Ba'aretz vehen bechutz la'aretz velo nireh kevala es hoKodesh, Rachmonei leSheizvei lest we be doomed.
From R Sholom's letter, I don't see why they did not, though this can be verified if the pair are still together...
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that I would expect Rav Shmuel to issue some sort of clarification or apology, especially to his students who went all out to defend his indefensible position. But to do so would require him to be omed in the tenth nisayon of Avraham Avinu, vehamaven yavin.
ReplyDeleteBut my point was never about what Rav Shmuel should do.
You are too fixated on what Rav Shmuel should do that you are ignoring what you should be doing, which is what my point was about.
What you should be doing, as someone who professes (and I believe you are) to be concerned about the implications of this scandalous heter, is declaring in every possible way you can that "Rav Shmuel assered", instead of trying to demonstrate that "He says he assered but he's really not that serious about it". Continuing to insist that he is only saying that RDF assered, vlei lo svira lei, is, as I said before, serving Rackman's agenda.
It is simply wishful thinking on your part until Rav Shmuel acts in a responsible manner and writes his own letter explicitly killing the heter and how it was obtained. It is not me who is servering Rackman's agenda but Rav Shmuel. You are criticizing me for pointing out what is obvious to everyone else - except for your self.
ReplyDeleteIn other words, they never considered the Heter as the sole basis for permitting her remarriage.
ReplyDeleteWhat type of other basis may there be?
They did not get away with it. For this we should thank this blog and many others. They paid very high price for an for a fraudulent Heter. I think that the damage to their reputation and that of R Greenblat is permanent. Another good thing is that even more people understand that word of so called Gedolim should not be accepted without scrutiny.
ReplyDeleteCan't say publicly because the person who told me about it -- years ago when we still were scrounging for an explanation of "Tamar is Free" -- told it to me confidentially. My hinting that there is a "Get" of sorts is already revealing too much. Ha'maivin Yavin.
ReplyDeleteBetter?!
ReplyDeleteThis time she got someone who has no problem with committing adultery. And if all she cares about is living a fun Torah-free life do you think such a person wont also cheat on her? She has taken for herself the worst of both worlds.
And all with the aid of the maisis umadiach rabbis who pushed her there.
Can we once and for all find out if the pair are still together?
ReplyDeleteSo is Aharon Friedman then a liar?
ReplyDeleteExcellent! While I sympathize with the concerns of the blog master and most readers here, I think that for the most part, they did not get away with it - unless the pair are still together.....which is worth to investigate at this point. .. I highly doubt that anyone, 1) no matter how prominent they are and 2) no matter what tactics used will not be able to live without fear and trepidation - until reality catches up to them.
ReplyDeletePerhaps at this point it would be worthwhile to 'round up' all annulments (and if we have guts, the annulers too) and declare them invalid for posterity...
I was at a kiddush in Nevada that served both cholent with chunks of "meat" and lox with cream "cheese". I knew one of them had to be fake. But it was important to know which one it was. I ate my bagel with my cholent so that tells you what was fake. But the rav had to answer which item it was, the fake was that good.
ReplyDeleteIf Tamar Epstein has a legitimate way that makes any future offspring she has with Adam Fleischer not to be a mamzer, it had better be explained. But I seriously doubt there is one.
I meant it as tounge in cheek, to point out as you say rightfully so, "with the aid of the maisis umadiach rabbis who pushed her there". Very well put!
ReplyDeleteShe wasn't even in pursuit of divorce, but they wanted to show Hakoras hatov ;>) as payback for her Chosheve fathers contributions while demonstrating their own selfish force capabilities at TE's expense. She was merely suckered into this FIASCO and now paying for it dearly. Having the whole world *merannenin achreihem* is no picnic, and for facesaving reasons she doesn't want to give in by acknowledging that, therefore remains in denial as long as she can. This is purely a living hell every moment of it with no peace to her soul in sight. If she knows what's good for her, is to get out of this mess ASAP and listen up to the Emesdige gedolim, and only then *yinam* will follow. This second time, is NO time. With Hashem's help, she should come to her richtige sechel and clean up her mess. Amen
Vechol ha'Am yishemeu veyirou velo yezidin od.
To paraphrase greatest anav
ReplyDeleteWhat you should be doing in order to get the public not to believe in such hetairim is to fool them into believing that Kaminetzky is really shattered and heartbroken about the heter having emerged through him and that he is fasting taanaisim and practicing martyrdom such as is required for the repentance of a sin as grave as the one he committed. Ad kan tochen divrei greatest anav
That's a great idea. But the problem is that fooling the public, while seeming to be a good bandaid and easy solution, never works in the long run and often not even in the short run. When people see that Kaminetzky is shamelessly socializing with gedoilim as though he is innocent of any wrong doing and we do not see anything that shows remorse and yet this blog claims he did a proper teshuva they will now learn yet some new things which will destroy yiddishkeit even more.
Listen carefully. The one thing that we have is the truth and it must be held sacred. The idea that deception is ok, even for an end that we think is worthwhile, is what eventually allows rabbis to lead the people astray in the worst ways.
The truth is that the Kaminetzkies have committed a grave sin and are shameless and remorseless about it to this day. That is the truth and it shouldn't be twisted even with all of you good cheshbonos.
Thank you. It does explain what was going through certain people's minds. "We blew a cool 60 grand, and we ain't got noffin to show for it?! We MUST have somffin" So, voila! Heter is born. As we know, the "this "heter" is worth as much as the ...
ReplyDeleteWhat is also abundantly clear is, that all those who wrote that any offspring Tamar and her boel produce, completely clarified what type of conniving thugs certain reshaim are.... What they did was always worthless.
I wish I would understand but apparently I am not a maivin so therefore sadly I'm not yavin. Am I to regret all the anti Kaminetzky comments that I made, and to assume that there is something legitimate here, and therefore go along with all those who say that laymen shouldn't question the actions of rabbis because not everything is being revealed to the public? What could a get of sorts possibly mean? A get me'ussa? or a get al tnai which has not been fulfilled? Or has been fulfilled? So are you saying laymen need to mix out?
ReplyDeleteNo. No valid get was given. I will try to get permission to clarify further.
ReplyDeleteThe plot thickens!
ReplyDeleteTE is really non-Jewish...
ReplyDeleteAF is really a shin-dalet...
TE second marriage is a hoax; there's an underground passageway where they both escape from every day after entering the house...
The first marriage was nullified because eidi kidushin by the first marriage were found to carry in the Brooklyn eruv...
No one from Philly or who knows anyone who knows anything about the Epsteins-Friedman saga, knows that Tamar only went to Rav Greenblat with the Bracha and sanction of Rav Kamanetzky... He guided her from day one...
ReplyDeleteHaving a Gadol as Rav Shmuel as her posaik, and having him keep quiet, and wish her a mazel tov when she was "freed" has got to be a level of betrayal like none other.
The Epsteins take Das Torah seriously. They would have NEVER EVER accepted the heter even from mashiach himself if THEIR Rav (aka Rav Kamanetzky) didn't say it was OK....
Am I to regret all the anti Kaminetzky comments that I made, and to assume that there is something legitimate here
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely no!
0 + 0 = 0
If Tamar Epstein has a legitimate way that makes any future offspring she has with Adam Fleischer not to be a mamzer, it had better be explained. But I seriously doubt there is one.
ReplyDeleteThere isn't. He wasn't saying that there is.
0 + 0 = 0</strong.
He was simply giving a partial explanation and way to be dan l'kaf zechus what went on here. A question that is bothering everybody is how can these people make such a great blunder. Mr. Orlow is providing a glimpse into their mindset.
True, they would have on him a strong ta'anah...
ReplyDeleteAh lo and behold appears, Bechhofer k'heref ayin...
ReplyDeleteAh, Hollywood, azoy geshmak!...
ReplyDeleteThey would have NEVER EVER accepted the heter if THEIR Rav (aka Rav Kamanetzky) didn't say it was OK....
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, they would never, ever continue with the aduletry if their Rav (aka Rav Kamanetzky) didn't say, or hint that it was OK....
Correct?
Also, are all those rabbanim who protested the heter guilty of slander? ...
ReplyDeleteWhy didn't RNG write that a get was given? And more so, Sholom's letter to RNG didn't mention that, just that there should be a kiddushay to'us heter....the more I think of it, the more confused I get....
OK, please do, looking forward...
ReplyDeleteThey have a point but they should alos learn a lesson that bribe does not work as far as halacha is concerened
ReplyDeleteI have a difficult time being dan l'kaf zechus that of a good person who made a one-time mistake. The letters from Rabbi Klavan and Rabbi Winter, zt'l, show these people consistently tried to avoid returning to the Bais Din of Baltimore. Also, even after Tamar was supposedly freed, they continued their bullying tactics against Aharon Friedman. The only dan l'kaf zechus they can be judged as is that of bad people who did one thing right (saying they accept Rav Dovid Feinstein's psak) for their own benefit.
ReplyDelete"round em up against the wall" :-<
ReplyDeleteThe copyright is mine.
ReplyDeleteIf there is some mysterious way al pi kabala and al pi sod, the poskei haDor would have been aware of it and included in their protests. The invented Get Zikui does not apply here nor anywhere else. The latest letter quoting the Psak is, that the bitul hakidushin has no tokef at all. Even if they want to apply that the eidim or mesader kidushin had an unfiltered cell phone that *passed thru water bugs :->* of which according to Shevet haLevi makes him posul l'Eidus, ein odom oise beiloso beilas znus, Biah is still koine. By *odom*, we refer to a real mentsch, not the Adam kind. I don't believe they have some kind of a secret weapon we don't know about, if so, the latest Kam's letter would be a deliberate deceit same as the "Meolam lo hitarti" and even worse. It is time to move on and start taking action. Enough with this fonfening around stalling for time, time and again, ping pong and Volley ball, Time outs, Shailos vetshuvos of Abba heich measrin es haMelach, veal tidche otanu beiskei teven veKash. And where is the Moetzet in all this? Is this what you call a true manhig with integrity Anshei Emes veSonei Botsa? Im boarozim noflo shalheves, umah yomru ezoivei hakir? As long as they don't follow up having the pair DEPART they remain betsivui beOmed veYegaresh, and business is *not* as usual.
ReplyDeleteLechol man deboie lemeida, please note that the latest kam's letter states in *plural* "Ukvar mosarti Psak haBD LEBA"ALEI hadovor". The yud is quite close to the lamed and not clearly noticeable. That makes it at least two baalei dovor e.g. the boel and the niv'al. Whether it also refers to RNG as well, and truly it should, needs verification of the BA"ALEI haSimcha AND R' Dovid lemi hiskavnu bekavonosom. I thought this should be noted for clarification.
This whole FIASCO still goes on behind smoke and mirrors with *Sod H' lireiov* with no transparency or clarity while still trying to get away with it. Why don't the Kam's follow up on it and pursue the Adam's veChava to part company like any other BD would?. It IS their responsibility, hi mosiv lah, vehi mefarek lah. No, Esther aka TE'E is not karka oilom hi, vehi beilas boal. Veato hosheiv eishes hoish...
I see someone got my point.
ReplyDeleteAs to the truth: Fooling the public is wrong. I'm not suggesting spreading falsehoods; I'm asking to keep the matter quiet, as I will explain.
There are two groups of people. There are the likes of the people on this blog, who know that what happened here is unjustifiable, and the fact that this or that rabbinic personality put his name to it just serves to prove that he is really rotten. Accordingly, the Kamenetzkys or any other rabbinic figure involved committed terrible crimes, whether intentionally or not. And if Rav Shmuel indeed knew the real story and played along with it he is far from a gadol, if not much less than that.
There is however a second group of people, who in their eyes Rav Shmuel has not lost his stature, and try as you may he will not lose his stature in their eyes as a result of this story. They have such a high opinion of him because of his record of the past 70 years that this one story is not going to rock the boat.
To many of these people, after Rav Shalom wrote his letter the case is closed. We can go back to believing in Rav Shmuel because he was takkeh chozer when he recognized the truth.
Now comes Rabbi Eidenson and says "No, you naive fools! You think he retracted? Bobbe maases! This was all a cover up!" Does he have proof for this? No. Did he investigate the facts about what where and how Rav Shmuel handled the case since Before Purim? No. It's all conjecture, based on the silence of Rav Shmuel since. Big Deal. I can think of many reasons why he has been silent since then.
But Rabbi Eidenson refuses to give up on reading his conjecture into Rav Shmuel's silence. In this conjecture, there is nothing about exposing the truth or seeking the truth. And there is no cover-up in refraining from, or refusing to buy into, RDE's conjecture.
Now, of course, RDE can believe whatever he wants to believe, provided that it is halachically permitted (see Hilchos Lashon Hara and Dan lkaf zchus). He's a smart man, and he might even be right. But there is a big price to pay for engaging in this type of conjecture, which is what I have been trying to convey above.
Because if you are successful in digging up the truth, and the truth is that Rav Shmuel holds of this shmatte heter, you are doing a disservice to Klal Yisrael. Because you will not be successful in convincing a large segment of the public that Rav Shmuel is not a gadol, even if that's your personal conclusion, but you will have have a nice part in breaking the wall of mekach taus bkiddushin, by bringing a chareidi gadol (or at least one who is percieved as such) into the Rackman Hall of Fame.
Most probably. If Rav Kamanetzky told her from day one, she is not eligible for such a heter, she would have never even thought to obtain one. And Rav Kamanetzky can never say he was not aware Tamar was looking to obtain a heter. Since, he conversed with Rav Greenblat on the matter, and a Gadol in his own right, and HER posaik for that matter, it is my humble opinion that he SHOULD have had an opinion on the matter.
ReplyDeleteIt's not like he incapable of looking at the halachig qualification of what makes a marriage pasul.
A high profile Rav and Gadol has a harder time getting away with saying "I didn't know"
Unlike a layman, he is not incapable of looking up the halachos in a saifer
In my humble, uneducated opinion a Rav has to take respnosibility for the pesak another Rav gives his "talmid/talmida" when it is done so in conjunction with his input on the situation....
I you are confusing the plot with the blood spilled from Aharon Friedman's head when the thugs knocked him to the pavement a stones's throw from his daughter and which has now congealed. It is crying out to Heaven for justice.
ReplyDeleteHope to have permission within a day or so to reveal more.
I have a difficult time being dan l'kaf zechus that of a good person who made a one-time mistake.
ReplyDeleteWhat they did was unacceptable. Period. However, to m and others, it is worthwhile to understand what justifications went through their mind. 1) We now have a living example of what to protect ourselves of doing. 2) We get to understand others better..
The human in them, at this point may look at every way possible to justify their current actions....
ReplyDeleteThey are humans before all else.
I can't even wrap my pinky around the kind of turmoil Tamar and her family are facing.
Beshmutzing your ex is one thing, (of course it's still wrong), but adulry??? That's a whole different story!!
So the human thing to do at this point for most humans is to find the one thread that seemingly justifies your actions. Other wise how can one still live with themselves??
Will I say it's correct? No.
But can I see why they are still clinging on to the heter even if their posaik backed away? Of course!! In truth, I don't know if I would act much differently....
ואהתה לרעך כמוך.....
Try to understand a little where all these people are coming from.
Even if they are 100 % wrong.
BH I am not on a Beis din who has to deal with the repercussions of their actions....
I hope Hashem will give Tamar and her family the koach and courage to get through this ordeal.
At least AF is driven by the knowledge that he is right. While I sympathize with all the pain he has gone, he can still look in mirror and live with himself....
I don't know who you are, but I have a tremendous respect for your refined, and polite way of speaking. (Speaking)
ReplyDeleteI tremdously admire the way you communicate. You are able to get your points across, without mockery or isults.
But best of all you seem to know when to not respond because you know it will lead no where.
Kiddos to you Honesty.
Like this: :-P-<=
ReplyDeleteAfter the "Tamar is Free" announcement, someone told me they spoke to someone else who I'll refer to as "X". "X" indicated that he had the inside scoop on Tamar being "free".
ReplyDeleteThe story "X" gave then was that in fact a Get had been given, although not in a fashion where a husband and wife both appear in a Bais Din and the husband puts the Get in the wife's hand.
Instead,"X" seemed to be alleging that the husband authorized that a Get be given on the husband's behalf.
I went back to my source, and did not receive permission to give over what "X" said, so I'm not going to go into further detail.
To summarize, it's possible "X" and others do believe some kind of Get was given.
I believe that no valid Get was given, and any other "Get" Tamar may have received is invalid.
The following is a total guess, based on some fact and lots of imagination:
(1) Fact: Aharon was attacked outside his mother-in-law's house.
(2) Fact: the attack was brief. Soon after it started, the attackers backed off and Aharon escaped and notified the police. Sorry to play the cool insider here, but I cannot reveal at this point the true reason the attackers backed off.
(3) The attackers were trying to extract a Get from Aharon. They had a vehicle waiting in his mother-in-law's driveway, just a few feet away, and they intended to force him into the vehicle and torture him. The attackers, though, were bested by Aharon. What should they do?
(4) The attackers concocted a lie. They reported to their boss that the three of them knocked Aharon to the ground (which is a fact), and that he shouted, "Stop! I'll give Tamar a Get!" (which in fact he did not say.)
(5) Based on this false report from the attackers, the Bais Din that was waiting in another location, in a similar way to how they waited during the time of the beating of Avrohom Rubin, issued a "Get" to Tamar.
(6) However, according to what the attackers relayed to the Bais Din, Aharon did not recite the exact formula they sought. All he said, according to them, was "Stop! I'll give Tamar a Get!" Thus, even according to the phony "Bais Din", the "Get" they issued was questionable, and "Bdi'eved".
(7) Thus a "Heter" was sought and eventually obtained.
(8) Another fact: according to a published report, Avrohom Rubin apparently denies reciting the formula to give a Get. This opens the possibility that attackers in cases of beating up the husband may have made up claims in the past of husbands acquiescing to give a Get under pressure.
(9) To me, most telling, was the vehemence that Rabbi Shalom Kamenetsky expressed when I asked him to agree with me that there was no Get. His refusal puzzles me to this day.
(10) My tentative hypothesis is thus that Rabbi Shalom Kamenetsky thinks that a "Bdi'Eved Get" of sorts was issued but he can't say this publicly because it would expose him to criminal liability as an accessory after the fact of a conspiracy to kidnap. Thus, once Tamar married Adam, he holds one may rely on the Bdi'eved Get, even though it was not enough to allow them to marry L'chat'chila.
Thank you! I sincerely appreciate it.
ReplyDelete(I need to be my way to the hat store to purchase a larger hat for the bloating head just caused!) Thank you.
Don't all accepted shittas rule that a valid Get must physically be handled by the husband and that a husband simply verbalizing something, anything, without physically handling the Get is automatically invalid? If so, which I think is correct, the line of events hypothetically proposed would be implausible.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, he is doing this without Rav Dovid Feinstein's approval. (He holds that those gittin are absolutely worthless. The Baltimore Beis Din clarified the facts for any doubters). If there would ever be an uproar about this, we can expect the same ring-around-the-rosie game again.
ReplyDeleteHe just spent considerable time with RDF discussing this case and he couldn't ask him about this kangaroo "beis din's" supposed "get?"
Oh, he'll say: "It was him, not me." Let's not forget: "RDF needs to pasken.."
Ok, let me agree partly and disagree partly.
ReplyDeleteFor those who don't know about the story and also for those who vaguely know, there is no point to tell them as it is simple lashon hora to spread this story for no purpose, and additionally, it would, as you say, lighten the severity of such things in the eyes of people.
But for those people who know the whole story or at least know some of the facts by which no such heter can exist, such as the fact the psychological report was a fake etc, for people like that it is necessary not to allow them to be deceived at all. Let me first clarify something. Rav Eidenson doesn't think that Rav Shmuel holds of this shmatte heter. Nobody could possibly hold of it. And if he would sincerely hold of it, he wouldn't be a sinner but an idiot. But the fact is that the people who produced this heter are sinners. To allow anyone who knows the story to think that there could even be a hava amina for such a heter is an open door for total hefkairus. Therefore on this blog which consists of people who know, Rabbi Eidenson must remain strong not to allow any deception of such sorts whatsoever.
But even if this story it true it is completely possul as it ts a get me'ussa and it isn't kosher even Bdi'eved.
ReplyDeleteIf, however, the force was appropriate al pi halacha, and the get is therefore kosher, and the force does truly need to be a secret because it would in fact expose him and the attackers to criminal liability, then the truth is that laymen can't mix in because there could be facts, as per such a case, that they don't and can't know. But if that would be the case, then at least these facts could have been revealed to some major league rabbbonim who could afterwards vouch for the validity of the get while saying that they can't disclose the details. But this didn't happen. All the rabbonim said it is passul even Bdi'eved and the children would be mamzairim. So I must assume that there are no facts here which can validate this get even Bdi'eved. Maybe for the reason I said in the beginning of this post.
Appartently you are correct that she probably is compelled to believe that there is a valid heter. But it's not really the way that will make her life more comfortable, because she can never free herself of what she knows deep down. But if she would once and for all bight the bullet and come clean and leave her current adultery situation then she has a chance of reconciling the issue with herself and her conscience. It will probably mean coming to the realization that she was used and betrayed by her pretend helpers and she will grow up and begin to know that she must begin to have a mind of her own and not allowed to be manipulated. She can then build a life for herself in a real and meaningful way.
ReplyDeleteOf course I agree with you.
ReplyDeleteBut I also know that the right choice is never an easy one.....
I can sympathize with her struggle between right and wrong.
Don't forget that Rabbanim face the nisyonos of kavod, gaiva, nitchchiut etc.
ReplyDeleteSure we see it all as black and white, right and wrong, but we have not even a drop of an inclining of how great their test in those inyanim are..
Remember the story of the Tana (?) Who gave a sermon belittling Melech Menashe for his idol worship? Menasha later apearred to him in a dream and told him that he has no understanding of how strong the taiva for avoda Zara was back then. Even more so, Melech Menashe told that tana (sorry forgot the name) that has HE lived in Menashe's time, he would be picking up his coat to run after Avoda Zara....
So while you are correct that an honorable Rav should NOT be worried about his own kavod, and be a true just leader concerned soley with Hashem's honor.... Try to watch how much of your destain and disgust comes from your own gaiva, as opposed true hurt for the malchus shamayim...
Maybe we should all pray for the "gedolim/leaders" to over come their test of kavod and nitzchiyut and that they should be able to stand up to the demands placed upon them....
That's what I said. One time, we give the benefit of the doubt. In this case where they repeatedly tried to circumvent the Bais Din, their zechus of wickedness is established.
ReplyDeleteGive it 10 years when reb sholoms on the moietzes thats gonna b more than getting away with murder
ReplyDeleteOne problem at first glance: AF, himself, said he never gave a get... ?
ReplyDeleteTrue
ReplyDeleteAharon never gave a Get. I'm saying false witnesses may have testified to a Bais Din that Aharon agreed to give Get, and that this testimony was accepted, and that the Bais Din subsequently issued a Get on Aharon's behalf.
ReplyDeleteThere was a Rabbi who used to sometimes visit our Shul when he was in the U.S. whose name I will not mention, for a reason that will be more clear below.
ReplyDeleteHe was an agent of a Bais Din. The Bais Din sent him around the world to find husbands who had abandoned their wives. The Rabbi told the most amazing stories. He seemed to have near miraculous Hasgacha Pratis in finding the men, and in the men agreeing to finally give a Get. Apparently all the Bais Din required was that the Rabbi testify that the men agreed to divorce. I'm not entirely clear on that point, actually, but one thing for sure: the men did not travel back to the country where their wife was to Give her the Get.
One story after another! He related them so matter-of-factly, who could doubt him. He was an impressive man in appearance and demeanor. I had no doubt husbands would meet him and realize the gig was up and would calmly, without coercion, meekly give permission for a Get to be given.
Then I heard some of what happened to this Rav. He had gotten pulled into a scam, what seemed to be an obvious scam, and it apparently destroyed him, with the loss of his family, money, job, etc.
So then I began reconsidering. Experience shows that people who spin untrue exploits about themselves can be vulnerable to believing wild tales others tell them. I wonder now if this Rav hadn't just been making up the stories about the husbands. After all, he was operating in far flung countries, in such a way that it would be difficult for the Bais Din to independently review his actions.
We had a case in this community where someone was accused of making up stories about the provenance of Sifrai Torah. I think the man to this day protests his innocence of the charges. Yet, still, a civil court found him guilty.
So, it's not a stretch that gangsters would play a little game and rough up a husband and claim he said this or that. And it's not difficult to imagine Rabbi Wolmark accepting the testimony and possibly ruling that the witnesses were made into agents by the husband to present to the Bais Din the husband's willingness to divorce.
As with the Heter where Rabbi Greenblatt relied on Rabbi Shalom Kamenetsky. Rabbi Shalom Kamenetsky can say he is relying on Rabbi Wolmark.
Rabbi Shalom Kamenetsky could say to Rabbi Dovid Feinstein, "Between us only, can a man assign an agent to give the man's wife a Get? Because I have it on good authority that Aharon Friedman did so."
And the answer could be: the Heter is worthless because it does not conform to the Tshuva of Reb Moshe. But the Get is good, IF Aharon really gave agency.
He ain't ever makin it to the Moetzes club. At least that little bit is done.
ReplyDeleteAmen. Hashiva Shofteinu Kevarishona. Everyday. Three times a day. With kavana!
ReplyDeleteLike I ended off in my comment: we deserve Gedolim that we don't have to willfully ignore sordid details to respect and trust in their leadership.
Because for a lot of Bnei Torah who have decided that this Parsha is over now that RSK has accepted the psak of RDF, are willfully ignoring tremendous details in order to retain their respect for him, rather than face the difficult emotional test of facing the facts and all it entails. They have too much invested in him and his place in the Velt to turn their backs. The fear of the unknown.
What is the definition of being dan l'kaff zechus? Is there only one absolute and exclusive definition?
ReplyDeleteThank you.
ReplyDeleteAnd the answer could be: the Heter is worthless because it does not conform to the Tshuva of Reb Moshe. But the Get is good, IF Aharon really gave agency.
1) That's a big if.
2) He would have to have given agency on his free will - not under any duress.
To rely upon some sort of heter like this is redoing what he did with the heter.
We deserve? Based of how many "binei Torah" close their eyes to the truth, I'm not sure they 'deserve' better.... Leaders reflect their dore.
ReplyDeleteIt takes a lot of tefila to get to to a tzadik emes.... And the tzadik emes is mostly not some world renound speaker and rosh Yeshiva....
I hope your all your tefilos are answered litova
It is accepted to give a Get through a messenger. In fact, Gittin can be mailed to another messenger. The accepted approach is to have the husband sign/authorize a document that appoints a messenger and authorizes him to use whatever means necessary to give the Get to the wife. Ultimately there needs to be a direct chain of authorization to the human being that hands the Get to the wife. If you were to bring such a document, signed by two witnesses and three judges, to a beis din, they would allow you to give the get for the husband.
ReplyDeleteOf course, I couldn't come up with such creativity! ...
ReplyDelete@yehuda In which case how could the hypothetical scenario @Joseph Orlow outlined above, that the attackers claimed Aharon allegedly merely verbalized, but never signed anything, authorizing a Get even be halachicly plausible?
ReplyDelete* sigh *. Please review this http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/11/dan-lchaf-zechus-what-is-obligation-to.html
ReplyDeleteNot the halacha, the definition.
ReplyDeleteYou're truly the greatest anav.
ReplyDeleteBut even if this story it true it is completely possul as it ts a get me'ussa and it isn't kosher even Bdi'eved.
ReplyDeleteIf, however, the force was appropriate al pi halacha, and the get is therefore kosher, and the force does truly need to be a secret because it would in fact expose him and the attackers to criminal liability, then the truth is that laymen can't mix in because there could be facts, as per such a case, that they don't and can't know. But if that would be the case, then at least these facts could have been revealed to some major league rabbbonim who could afterwards vouch for the validity of the get while saying that they can't disclose the details. But this didn't happen. All the rabbonim said it is passul even Bdi'eved and the children would be mamzairim. So I must assume that there are no facts here which can validate this get even Bdi'eved. Maybe for the reason I said in the beginning of this post.
I feel great!
ReplyDeleteThis is from Rav Yitzchok Eisenman of Passaic:
ReplyDeleteIn Pirkei Avos we learn: “Joshua the son of Perachia and Nitai the Arbelite received from them. Joshua the son of Perachia would say: …and judge every man to the side of merit.” (1:6)
It is interesting to note that in the original Hebrew, the Mishna reads: “and judge the entire man to the side of merit.” Meaning, in the original Hebrew it does not say ‘dan es ha’Adam l’Kaf zechus’; it says: ‘dan es KOL ha’Adam l’Kaf zechus’.
There is the extra word ‘KOL’ which means that you have to judge the entire -total man in the side of merit.
What is added by the extra word KOL? What extra explanation is included by the phrase: the total man?
The S’fas Emes (YehudahAryeh Leib Alter, 1847–1905) explains that the word KOL comes
to teach us that you can never really judge anyone without
understanding the entire man; where he comes from and where he is going.
Can't say this enough: there is no kosher Get from Aharon. Period. There is no Get at all from him at this point.
ReplyDeleteBefore Tamar "remarried" and after she was "freed", the Av Bais Din of Philadelphia (!) went to the Chazon Ish Bais Din and was told by none other than Rabbi Nissim Karelitz himself that is impossible that Tamar is NOT married to Aharon.
Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn has given a series of classes where he went into detail how a forced Get is invalid. The only exception, I think, is in a case like a Kohen to a G'rusha. But even there, it seems to me, being we live in America and the principle of Dina D'Malchusa Dina, we would be forbidden to implement a Bais Din ruling to force a Get.
>>>>>>YET<<<<<<<
...be aware that many Rabbonim in the U.S. are copacetic when it comes to forced Gittin. Does not Rabbi Heinemann have his letter of Haskama on the ORA website? Was it not reported here of Rabbi Belsky's involvement in forcing a Get from Avrohom Rubin? The list goes on and on of Rabbonim apparently somewhat uninformed or willfully professing ignorance of the Halacha. Rabbi Breitowitz wrote a whole defense of Rabbi Wolmark by giving a misleading, in context, presentation of the Rambam, leaving the impression that Rabbi Wolmark's Bais Din which apparently took money from one side, issued rulings without having both litigants in front of it, etc was furthermore justified to beat husbands based on the Rambam.
So: had all the attackers done was raise a hand against Aharon, without striking him, that is enough to raise questions about any Get Aharon would give, even TODAY, years later, since we have to be concerned that Tamar's family perhaps still harbors plans to force a Get, and thus Aharon may still sense that he is in danger of attack. That is, great investigation is needed to determine that a Get given today by Aharon is not a coerced Get.
I would like to contact Rabbi Shalom Kamenetsky again and run my hypothesis by him. I would like a "yes" or "no" answer from him about whether he thinks a Get was given in some form.
In the Torah-true way of life, all men are obligated to learn Torah. So to apply that here, we should not get entangled in useless distinctions between "laymen" and "Gadolim". The Halacha is the same Halacha whether taught by a Scholar of seventy years or of seventeen years.
We say in the Davening every morning that there is no extra element of Man over Beast. But the choice is in our hands, however, to elevate ourselves through the Torah, or to act beastly even within the realm of Torah. That is the key question: do we laymen have a pure motivation? I hope and pray I do.
Thank you. So you're clarification is that Shalom K and even Shmuel K belonging to the Am Oratzus Gedolei Hatorah may have mistakenly believed that such coercion could produce a valid get. And then they went on to deceive the public with baloney stories about a heter.
ReplyDeleteI know that there is essentially no difference between laymen and rabbis. I only meant that people who don't have all of the facts can't give opinions and that there may possibly be a reason that facts must be withheld from the general public.
In other words if we can speak derogatorily about the Kaminetzkies, then we can do the same about all of the rabbis you mentioned who ignore the rules of get me'ussa. If not, that is to say, if we can see this as an honest mistake, then the 'heter' was not done in malice because the public was kept in the dark for good reason.
ReplyDeleteRight, but gedolim and/or leaders they are not. These things disqualify them. The pasuk refers to Menashe as having done evil and as having been chote umachtie, (until the point when he did teshuva) even though his nisoyon was great, and he was told through the nevi'im of tremendous punishment for his evil deeds. We may not follow such people and they not be our leaders. We can be dan them lekaf zechus from today till tomorrow but that does not put them into a position of being allowed to be leaders for Klal Yisroel because with their actions they are leading the Jews astray and are chote umachtie.
ReplyDeleteTechnically the husband can make a verbal statement in front of witnesses appointing a messenger to write and deliver a Get. However, if the husband subsequently said it was under duress (Modaah) or changed his mind (bitul shlichus) before the Get was given, then we're back to square one. If it was clearly under duress then he does not need to say anything.
ReplyDeleteIf the husband wishes to revoke the Get before it was delivered must he verbalize it is revoked in front of two eidim?
ReplyDeleteAt the rate it's going, The K's might be suckered in to be in cahoots with the goons lurking in the driveway. As far as Get is concerned, not even a Get meusse happened. You mentioned when Aron was attacked, he stated I *will* give a Get to tamar.
ReplyDeleteThat yet is not a Get, it's only a promise. A promise is not a Get. Only a Get is a Get. Nowhere did Aron make a shliach lehoilocho, or a shliach lekabolo, therefore it doesn't even have a Reiach of a Get, let alone a Get Meusse. Furthermore, should there have been a Get, why did they waste all their efforts to manufacture a Mekach Taus? Even a promise done under duress, is worthless and can go complain to the Baal Insaneh Tokef. Maybe this is another reason why The K's are hush hushing besoidei soides people will get wind how close in touch they have been with the Goons and the rav tabachim Mendele Butcher. Day by day, it's getting even better. Now that these gangsters got their years in jail, it's time to take ORA and cohorts to task. This is all one package deal of Koishrei Kshorim!
Joe, If i wanted to contact you in email, how can i go about doing that? or email me at Mefaresh@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect in reference to these "X" "X"'s versions ish mipish a few comments I would like to add
ReplyDelete2) it was known at the time, or even Aron said he was able to call the police on his cell, however, it was never mentioned that he ordered a get, with or without force, not to the Police nor to anyone. Furthermore, it was never mentioned of the same at the trial of Mendel the Butcher, nor at questioning of mr. *gur* fein. It would have been of great contradiction from receiving monies supposedly for child support and the forceful extraction fee of that alleged Get, if it had truly happened.
4) "Stop! I'll give Tamar a Get!" (which in fact he did not say.) As I already mentioned, Promises Promises, even if he had said that. Absolutley no basis for ordering a Get.
5) Nowhere has it been heard that the Monkey BD was Goveh Eidus of such.
6) Not even bedieved, not even a Get meusse, not in a million years. I also don't believe that even the monkey BD would go for such.
10) "Bdi'Eved Get" of sorts was issued.
If there ever was a discussion of this kind in the past,
Can please anyone explain that according to a previous post, when TE'E was recently notified that she needs a Get, whereby she asked "Whether it is a *GET LECHUMRA* ". There must be some piece of information that would fill in this puzzle of why using that phrase. Anyone, Please!?
If he was not under duress at the time then he would need to revoke it in front of two eidim. Some opinions require three people. A revocation like this is forbidden l'chatchilah and in fact the custom is that the husband swears to not revoke the Get at the time he authorizes it.
ReplyDeleteDoes his swearing not to revoke mean if he does revoke (prior to delivery) the revocation is not effective? And if he can revoke, how is it determined whether he revoked prior to delivery or after the Get was already delivered to his wife (if it was delivered), in which case it would've been too late to revoke?
ReplyDeleteWhen Epstein sent his tough guys to beat a husband into giving a Get he would also send a Sofer along to the beating. Why couldn't he have had one of the people be a shliach to take a statement to write a Get instead of sending the Sofer to write the Get while with the husband?
It's on my list of things to do to call the Av Bais Din in Philadelphia to learn more. Will keep you posted.
ReplyDelete(301) 812-4050
ReplyDeletemarket@softwine.press
There are lengthy discussions among the Acharonim regarding your first question, but the simplest understanding is that the revocation would be effective regardless and the oath is just a disincentive. Part of the value of a disincentive is that it makes the starting point be that he did not revoke until the husband proves that he revoked before the Get was given. Once she has the Get, the burden of proof is on the husband. Although since a revocation must have witnesses and the giving of a Get must also have witnesses (according to normative practice), it should be possible to cross-reference the dates. Epstein sent a Sofer because of the fact that normative Halacha is to only do Shlichus with a document, so you would anyhow need the Sofer and witnesses to be there just to write the Harshaa for the Shliach. I believe Epstein also brought the wife there, so he also avoided the issues of the husband subsequently issuing a Modaa (that it was under duress) or a revocation of the Shlichus, as the Get would actually be given on the spot.
ReplyDeleteActually, Epstein did not have the wife come to the kidnapping of the husband. He would arrange for the Get to be delivered to her later, elsewhere, after he successfully coerced the Get. (In the undercover case where Epstein got stinged, he told the "wife" to be in public with witnesses during the time the beating was arranged for.)
ReplyDeleteOh well. So I guess he had both the Get and the Harshaa written at the coercion. Or maybe he didn't care that much.
ReplyDeleteHe left the victim husband tied up after his thugs left, so he probably expected the husband to be helpless and unable to get to eidim before he had the coerced Get delivered.
ReplyDeleteAnd he couldn't have cared for halacha too much, as he was coercing a Get, in the first place, without a beis din that the husband accepted jurisdiction and attended, ever having issued a psak that coercion was permitted. (As we saw in the FBI sting case with the missing husband.)
Was there ever a follow-up on this?
ReplyDelete