update - see my rebuttal to Harry Maryles egregious misunderstanding of this post
Having spent many hours in the last few weeks responding to questions about the seminary scandal or processes information about it, I think it is time to get on with life. I agree that there has been a need to explain and discuss this disturbing case. However the point has been reached where the same questions are brought up or baseless conjecture is tossed out to try and discredit the resolution - and that is where we are now.
Having spent many hours in the last few weeks responding to questions about the seminary scandal or processes information about it, I think it is time to get on with life. I agree that there has been a need to explain and discuss this disturbing case. However the point has been reached where the same questions are brought up or baseless conjecture is tossed out to try and discredit the resolution - and that is where we are now.
The chareidi system - which includes the Chicago Beis Din and the Israeli Beis Din - typically work privately - out of the awareness of the public. The Chicago Beis Din is part of a system set up to decide whether allegations or rumors of abuse should be reported to the police or dealt with in house. Inherent in their mandate is the attempt to minimize chilul hashem while at the same time providing maximum help to victims and potential victims.
Recent history is full of attempted cover ups of abuse in our community and the resulting scandals when the cover up failed e.g., Kolko, Weberman, Tropper, Kolko, Mondrowitz, Weingarten, Elon, etc etc etc. Therefore it is quite understandable why the public is suspicious of rabbinic pronouncements such as "Don't worry about it", "Everything is fine", Don't speak lashon harah". The community gets even more suspicious when one beis din dealing with abuse is attacked by another beis din concerning how things should be handled. Beis Din - by and large are not oriented to public relations and are not willing to accept the chutzpa of the masses questioning their every move and pronouncement. Add to this the various blogs which have a long history of trying to undermine rabbinic authority - often with solid justification - but at other times simply functioning as a lynch mob. Toss in the strong attention of the secular media- and you have an explosive situation.
I have spent much time trying to understand what is going on. I have tried to clarify what has been done - to not only deal with the victims of this scandal - but what is being done to protect young ladies from having to deal with being abused by a charismatic talmid chachom who is also their mentor and perhaps closest confidante - in the context of a heady mixture of spiritualism and idealism in a bubble in Jerusalem - far from parents and normal protection.
I am not going to repeat all the facts of this case but I will just mention the dynamics that continue to drive it. There is a jurisdictional dispute which resulted from either a misunderstanding and/or the vanity and pride of a single individual. The accepted normative halachic practices have failed to resolve the conflict. What started out as a partnership in the best sense of the word has degenerated into a dispute which serves neither the victims or the protection of the students. It was clear that the dispute could not be resolved by the two sides and thus threatened to continue for years. The result of this dispute would be harsh pressure and continued stigmatization of the victims. A lawsuit of outrageous claims threatens a tremendous chilul hashem. There is the reality of the blanket smearing of the reputation of hundreds of fine young ladies who have attended, are attending or will attend these seminaries. A serious loss of emunas chachomim ( lack of respect for all rabbis and Judaism - is occurring and threatens to get much worse..
The IBD has proposed and is instituting fundamental changes in the seminary culture - which are widely views as needed for all seminaries - not just these four. The new owner had hired Rebtzn Birnbaum - a widely respected educator - to supervise all 4 seminaries. However this wasn't enough to break the deadlock or to quiet the constant attacks and accusations of corruption and cover ups from the supporters of the CBD against the IBD. Finally the head of the IBD - Rav Shafran - traveled to America and succeeded in convincing 5 American gedolim of the need of a letter publicly supporting the seminaries and indicating that they are safe and productive places of growth and spirituality.[I do not have any direct information that the letter was solicited by
Rabbi Shafran. I do know that he presented IBD's case to various rabbis. - see update below] In addition, the Novominsker had a vaad hachinuch of the highest level rabbonim added to reinforce the work of the IBD and to ensure that things were properly supervised. With this letter, the fight should have ended - especially since one of the 5 is himself a member of the Chicago Beis Din - and is well aware of the views of both sides.
However it is clear from the comments I have been receiving that the supporters of the CBD have entered a new phase - to look for any inconsistencies no matter how insignificant - that would justify their continued fight against the IBD. This is the well known psychological phenomenon of cognitive dissonance. For example, a certain messianic sect had predicted an invasion from outer space on a certain date and claimed salvation only for their sect. The sect simply made an announcement to that effect - and didn't seem to care if anyone took them seriously. However when the date of the invasion passed there was a decided change. Instead of acknowledging they were wrong they took to feverish missionizing to convince others of the truth of the invasion. The missionizing helped calm the anxiety from facing the unpleasant fact that they were wrong. The more people they could convince the less anxiety from reality. The more fervent their support of the sect - the easier it was to ignore that they had made a mistake.
Similarly here, the battle between the two beis dins is over and no useful purpose is served by continuing it. It is clear that the seminaries are viable and safe environments to continue their successful work in chinuch as the IBD has stated. 5 gedolim including a member of the CBD have publicly supported the view of the IBD. It is time for all of us to get on with life and to acknowledge the view of the CBD has been rejected. It is time to understand that the victims and the community will receive no benefit from continued attacks on the IBD and the view of the 5 gedolim. The battle is over. It is time to stop the guerrilla warfare.
Update regarding the origins of the letter of the 5 Gedollim - by Arie B. Link to letter of 5 Gedolim
Update regarding the origins of the letter of the 5 Gedollim - by Arie B. Link to letter of 5 Gedolim
I was intending not to post anything further in light of the fact that the issue is essentially moot. But there's an inaccurate perception here.
Rav Shafran was coming to America for other reasons, his trip was scheduled before this entire fiasco. He even had a public speaking engagement advertised beforehand.
During his stay here, he was under continuing harassment by various interests, with various "suggestions" and "proposals." His basic response was that if Yarmish wants to sell it's Yarmish's business, but whatever happens would have to be agreed to by the entire Beis Din, and he is only one member of three.
Apparently, the askanim who were running this campaign got several Roshei Yeshiva involved, primarily the Novominsker Rebbe (who has a very close relationship with Gottesman, as does Rav Feldman).
From what I understand, this letter represents the backfiring of the efforts of those askanim, because the Roshei Yeshiva spoke to those involved and roundly rejected the CBD's position, approach, and efforts.
Take it or leave it.
The schools are opening. The safety of the students has been assured, the ashukim have been protected, and a steamrolling of halachah has been avoided.
Having no vested interest here, I have every right to say that I leave it to the One Above to deal with the bloggers and commenters.
I will now go back to the constructive use of my time as those who choose to jabber continue on their own missions.
Congratulations to the IBD for successfully setting up a system protecting Bnos Yisroel and resolving this unfortunate situation after much hard work. With the seminaries opening up now with nearly their entire student body it is clear the world has recognized and accepted their leadership and moved on from the unfortunate events with new reinvigorated leadership continuing the institutions that are providing Torah life guidance to our daughters.
ReplyDeleteB"H we have moved on.
I respectfully differ. The seminary debate is a seminal event, in every sense of the word. The Shidduch System remains intact; that is, protecting a rapist from persecution so that a girl's value in the matchmaking world remains high trumps the community benefit of keeping the rapist away from other girls. It doesn't matter if Rabbi Meisels acted with the greatest propriety or in some other fashion: the perception is out there that it's possible to get away with raping Jewish girls. To paraphrase Shimon and Levi: Should we allow our sister to be treated like a slut? A special fund should be set up for girls who come forward with allegations of sexual misconduct by a teacher. All schools should be required to pay into this fund. The money should be used to pay the girl's lawyer and to compensate her and her family for the losses they will suffer in the matchmaking realm. Now that will make future molesters pause, much more so than putting in new rules and regulations.
ReplyDelete"The chareidi system - which includes the Chicago Beis Din"
ReplyDeleteI thought the CBD was not particularly Chareidi. (i.e. Rabbi Schwartz, its head, is MO.)
@Moe Ginsburg - true Rabbi Schwartz is MO but what about the rest of the beis din. Furthermore since when do MO require going to a beis din before reporting abuse to the police? In short either by membership or by creed this a a chareidi beis din
ReplyDelete@Joe Orlow where do you see that the IBD and the CBD differ regarding the shidduch system. Your suggestion has not been raised.
ReplyDelete"The seminary debate is a seminal event"
ReplyDeleteHardly. This is far from the first case of someone inappropriately touching, hugging, negiah.
"The Shidduch System remains intact"
As it should.
"the perception is out there that it's possible to get away with raping Jewish girls."
Baloney. This case has nothing to do with rape. And even if it did it would not leave such an absurd "perception".
"A special fund should be set up for girls who come forward with
allegations of sexual misconduct by a teacher."
Money is not one of the needed things in this case. A slush fund to pay off the girls will not entice them in any way to do any more than they already are. The girls are not lacking money and do not need money to accomplish anything on this.
"All schools should be required to pay into this fund."
There is no way to enforce such a rule and it would be laughed off by any school. Judaism isn't a central hierarchy like Catholicism where the top can command the entire religion.
"The money should be used to pay the girl's lawyer and to compensate her and her family for the losses they will suffer in the matchmaking realm."
No one will trade a better shidduch prospect from some shekels. What good would a monetary payoff do? These aren't poor girls. And even if they were no one would trade their marriage prospects for a few bucks.
"Now that will make future molesters pause, much more so than putting in new rules and regulations."
Nothing you suggested would give any pause or affect in any way future molesters.
Other than one underhanded dig against the CBD ("and/or the vanity and pride of a single individual") this is the most clear-headed post written on the subject, here or on the "other blog."
ReplyDeleteI do not have girls of seminary age, and I have not had a personal reason to pour through the hundreds of posts and comments about this subject. I do not have an opinion about this entire case, and I leave it to others to examine the details and reach their conclusions.
ReplyDeleteWhat is remarkable to me is the quote from Obama - "A crisis is a terrible thing to waste." Someone used to quote a Chinese curse - "My all your widest dreams come true." This would leave one's world free of conflict, need, and drama. How boring life would become.
There have clearly been differing opinions about the seminaries, and each can hang onto words and signatures of dayanim and rabbonim. I'm less concerned about how the balance will end. But if it does lead to complete resolution, as suggested here, what will people debate? What will they discuss in mikva, what will fill the Shabbos tables of so many?
I propose we abandon all these dramatic events, leave their resolution to others, invest only in dealing with our own issues (G-d knows, it's Elul and we should have plenty), and spend our Elul seriously engaged in our Cheshbon Hanefesh. How about it?
Based on the many posts and comments on this blog, the IBD and CBD do not appear to differ regarding the shidduch system. They are collectively silent as to addressing why not even one former student has stepped forward and made a public statement that Rabbi Meisels so much as shook their hand. It seems to be a given that the girls should just take it lying down, whatever he allegedly did. The justice of the "system" is more important than a system of justice. Even the CBD was, at best, lukewarm about bringing criminal charges, as you have valiantly and repeatedly pointed out. There was no Bais Din making a statement like,"If any behavior of a teacher towards a student has ever reached a criminal threshold, then the student has an obligation to bring charges, and not passively allow the criminal to strike again." We can infer how deeply embedded the system is by the manner in which @David rips my comment to shreds, like a lioness protecting her cub. My point is that this issue is not going to go away simply because the schools open in a few days and the discussion ceases here. I feel schools will not be "safe environments" until some suggestion along the lines of what I've outlined are implemented. Until then, it's open season on the girls.
ReplyDeleteIf you repeat it enough times, does it create a new metzius?
ReplyDeleteHave the victims been offered an apology, or any type of restitution? It's not over.
ReplyDeleteNice rhetorical technique - you compared those with whom you disagree with a messianic sect waiting for an invasion from outer space. This is a classic way to paint your interlocutors in a negative light.
ReplyDeleteYour last paragraph also presents an interesting argument - nothing is gained since your side is correct.
RDE - I hope you are correct in your assessment that the seminaries are viable and safe environments. I will be adding a special tefilla in Elul and during the Yamim Noraim for the safety of these girls.
@Jasper that is in fact supposed to happen - though it hasn't happened yet
ReplyDelete@Moshe I gather you are not old enough to remember Senator Aiken of Vermont
ReplyDeleteAnd do you think the US was victorious in Vietnam?
ReplyDelete@Moshe - that is irrelevant to you question
ReplyDelete@Michael - the flattery is deeply appreciated
ReplyDeleteYour suggestion to add a tefilla for the safety of girls should be expanded to safety of boys in yeshiva, safety of women in workplace and at home.
The parallel that you are suggesting is that "we" should cut our losses, declare victory, and get out of there. That might have worked well for the US, but the South Vietnamese were then left on their own to protect themselves....
ReplyDeleteI don't believe you. But anyway, it'll be of little benefit. Tefilos are less accepted from baalei lashon hara.
ReplyDeleteMoe,
ReplyDeleteYou and others have moved on. But has everybody moved on? And what we will have to read that is a juicy as this loshon hora? This loshon hora is the real thing, even if it may be complete lies. Okay, maybe it should wait until after Yom Kippur.
@Moshe you continue to misunderstand my point so let me spell it out. Your original question is if something is repeated enough does it create a new metzius?
ReplyDeleteThe answer is yes. Sometimes because it forces people to look at thinkgs differently and the reality can be accepted and sometimes it is simply a fig leaf which creates an illusion that allows moving on - because reality is denied..
I am simply saying that by looking at the situation as having come to the end of the process - it will redirect attention in such a way that the petty battles will be ended and the realilty of the defeat of the CBD will sink in. There is no benefit of continuing the fight - but yet the CBD supporters continue to fight.
. I did not mean to draw a direct comparison to Vietnam where the declaring victory was simply a fig leaf to the reality of defeat which allowed the US to take their troops out. The IBD is not comparable to the us troops nor the CBD to the Vietcong.
a masterpiece. Hurray for you, RDE. Enough of this. Let the legal system do its work. If there will be some fundamental news from the sytem, so be it. We need to be done. Time to do some Elul work. Focus the magnifying glass on..... ourselves
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think these 5 rabbis should end the fight? If the fight is about jurisdiction, they definitely have none. If the concern is meisels enablers, they have not addressed this at all. This is yet another case of uninformed "chachomim" signing something and expecting some "emuna".
ReplyDeleteThe "defeat of the CBD"? I think you will see in the coming days and weeks that your statement is incorrect. Your statement indicates that it's a fight, rather than a misunderstanding and legitimate difference of opinion over the best way to protect seminary girls. Rather telling.
ReplyDeleteYou forgot to finish with "therefore any parents who have already signed up their daughters for these seminaries are not entitled to a refund of their deposits even if they feel they are no longer comfortable sending their daughters to these seminaries".... or perhaps your didn't include that because your realize how ridiculous it sounds.
ReplyDeleteYes, the CBD will come under extreme criticism from all major Gedolei Torah in America, very soon. Their unprofessional and careless handling of such a serious issue will do them in as a BD and individually. You will see.
ReplyDeleteNow that this has ended, I think it is worthwhile to review what exactly has happened here. What should be most surprising to all of those following eagerly is the large degree to which CBD and IBD actually agreed.
ReplyDeleteMeisels inappropriate behavior. Both CBD and IBD (and Meisels own admission) agree that Meisels behaved improperly. Since the CBD did not release their findings, there is some uncertainty as to the nature of his actions. Those sympathetic to Meisels seem to imply that his improper actions were not severe. Others suggest that his actions included serious crimes. I am a member of the latter group as I cant imagine the CBD making such a big deal of this case unless the actions warranted it.
Meisels continuing role in educating women. Both CBD and IBD agree that Meisels should not be involved in any way – financially, administratively, educationally – in the education of women.
Seminary status. Both CBD and IBD agree that the seminaries should be sold. Some suggest that the sale has not yet occurred or is subject to meaningful contingencies but all agree a sale has or must take place.
Continuing role of senior seminary staff. Here is the only real difference between CBD and IBD. CBD found that senior seminary staff knew and/or should have known about Meisels activity and did not do anything to stop it. It is for this reason that CBD finds that the schools continue to be unsafe. IBD, despite not having heard or reviewed any testimony from the victims, has determined that either this finding is untrue or that it doesn’t matter.
At the end of the day, the entire fight between CBD and IBD is over the status of some small number of senior seminary staff.
I find it curious that IBD has fought so hard to protect those staff members. As a result of the IBD position and the retention of those staff members, CBD found the seminaries unsafe and HTC and Touro revoked their accreditation. Without this accreditation, these seminaries are likely on a path towards closing down – without access to US student loans or college credits, the universe of potential students is too small.
The question that remains unanswered is why? Why is CBD so insistent that these staff members need to be removed (a point that reinforces my belief that Meisels actions were very serious)? Why is IBD so insistent that those staff members remain, even at the expense of the ongoing viability of the seminaries.
In answering that question, we get at the essence of the fight between CBD and IBD. Who are they? Or more specifically, who are their family members that have such influence within the chareidi world that such a fight could occur to protect two or three jobs and reputations at the expense of four seminaries and hundreds of girls.
@Michael - you mistakenly think that the IBD is not concerned about victims - that is why they were formed in the first place. The CBD won't share any information about the victims
ReplyDeleteSo if there were indeed victims and the CBD is protecting their privacy, then the defeat of the CBD is the defeat of the victims. Well done!
ReplyDeleteYou don't believe me?? Give me a break.
ReplyDeleteThank you @correct facts please for explaining to me the ways of HKB"H.
@Yissachaar Zev - I was nodding in agreement with most of what you wrote until your didactic statement that the entire fight is over firing a small number of senior staff.. That is simply wrong.
ReplyDeleteThe fight is - and this is stated explicitly in emails - is who has jurisdiction of the case. They both claim full jurisdiction. Consequently the CBD refused to release information which would enable the IBD to properly evaluate and deal with the claims of staff involvement.
You are also wrong in indicating the identity and evidence regarding these staff members is known and the only fight is whether to fire them.
Your evaulation of how serious Meisels crimes were is very problematic. Either you have evidence or you don't
@Michael - what a ridiculous statement. The fact is the iBD is concerned with the victims and therefoere the defeat of the CBD does not harm the victims - Please stop spouting nonsense.
ReplyDelete"Both CBD and IBD agree that the seminaries should be sold."
ReplyDeleteUntrue. The IBD does not hold that they needed to be sold. And neither did Chicago, as was made explicit in their May 19th guidelines.
" As a result of the IBD position and the retention of those staff
members, CBD found the seminaries unsafe and HTC and Touro revoked their
accreditation"
Touro's action was inside baseball. Gottesman and the CBD brought pressure on them to revoke the accreditation. It didn't just happen by itself. They were working to shut down the schools.
" Why is IBD so insistent that those staff members remain,"
They are not insistent on that at all. What they insist upon is that they may not be fired without a fair hearing, which Chicago refuses to allow, b/c they just "know" that they are guilty. If staff members are found to have acted in appropriately, the IBD is perfectly ready to fire them.
Before drawing lessons from the episode, you need to get your facts straight.
"nor the CBD to the Vietcong."
ReplyDeleteTrue. With terrorists you can at least negotiate.
Let us hope. A ridiculous crew of small-timers.
ReplyDeleteDT,
ReplyDeleteWhile I appreciate that the fight between CBD and IBD assumed the form of an issue of jurisdiction, it would be irrelevant if the psak issued by both was the same.
The fact is that there is only one major difference between the conclusions of CBD and IBD with respect to required actions and that is the status of a small number of senior staff members.
My personal conclusion as to the likely severity of Meisel's misdeeds are irrelevant as he admitted to a degree of wrongdoing sufficient to justify his removal according to CBD and IBD.
So, unless you believe CBD and IBD are engaged in this destructive battle in order to prove some semantic point over jurisdiction, one must conclude it is about a small number of staff members.
Would either CBD or IBD go down the current path which is going to lead to the ultimate closure if these seminaries otherwise?
Yisachar Zev - you are wrong. The issue of firing is a consequence of the jurisdictional dispute. If the CBD would give the evidence to the IBD and the IBD agreed that the staff was negligent or complicit - they would also fire the staff. CBD refuses to share the evidence.
ReplyDeleteWhile I appreciate your desire to move on, and the discussions on this topic have indeed fallen into repititive patterns, your post reveals a serious misunderstanding as to why most of have written about this subject. We are niether "CBD supporters" nor "IBD bashers"; the terms themselves demean the seriousness of this issue.
ReplyDeleteI would like to quote from your post; "Recent history is full of attempted cover ups of abuse in our community and the resulting scandals when the cover up failed e.g., Kolko, Weberman, Tropper, Kolko, Mandrowitz, Weingarten, Elon, etc etc etc. Therefore it is quite understandable why the public is suspicious of rabbinic pronouncements such as "Don't worry about it", "Everything is fine", Don't speak lashon harah"." Those are your words and they are sadly, and tragically, true. The frum community, including the rabbinic leadership, has a terrible track record in dealing with sexual abuse. This is the cold, hard reality and that is why many of us care deeply about this case.
We can dan l'kaf zchus that the problems come from ignorance (about the real impact or nature of sexual abuse) or from a misplaced sense of priorities but, as your examples note, this is not a problem of the past (Weberman and Kolko are very recent cases) but a problem of today. As such there is justified suspicion that we are seeing "buisness as usual" without any real acknowledgement of the problems and with window dressing for solutions.
In that light, the decision made by the IBD to get the signatures of five gedolim who do not have 'clean hands" is worse than bad public relations. You yourself listed as examples of the scandels the two Kolko cases where, most unfortunately, neither Rav Perlow or Rav Kotler distinguished themselves. Has either admitted that they were in error? Did either of them ever publicly express that they were unaware, or misinformed, and should have done more? We all know the answer to that rhetorical question. Perhaps Rav Shafran was unaware of their histories but was there no one who could have advised him how poorly this would appear.?
In that same vein, asking three distinguished rababnim who have no experience in chinuch habanos or cases of sexual abuse to be the next line of shmira looks like window dressing. Even if it were fully well intentioned asking three talmidei chachomim to serve as poskim - which is what they say they were asked to do - does not make an admittedly cycnical public feel that real issues have been addressed.
Setting up a new menaheles and putting in new protocals are wonderful steps and kol hakavod to the IBD for doing so. If the IBD indeed puts out a
letter that shows sympathy (and acknowledgemnt) towards the victims - something that you have implied is forthcoming - that would be wonderful as well. However, do not reduce this serious issue and the passion of the people who have written in, to a mere sporting contest and loyalty to our team. Our allegiance is to protecting the vulnerable members of our community and to correcting the sad patterns that need to be uprooted.
http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/jesse_makes_push_iranians_freedom
ReplyDeleteThey were trying to rescue 13 trapped Iranian Jews.
@Avraham while I agree with much of what you say - there are a number of disagreements. One in particular is that the CBD is viewed as concerned with the victims and the IBD is concerned about jobs and coverups.
ReplyDeleteYou might want to investigate two members of the CBD - Rav Levin and Rav Feurst. In short I don't view the CBD as necessarily the good guys and the IBD as the bad guys. Therefore I am focusing on the facts of the present case in which the preponderance of evidence supports the conduct of the IBD and not the CBD.
Regarding the Vaad HaChinuch - not being experienced in abuse cases - you seem to have forgotten or missed the fact that the IBD is still involved and they are in fact experienced.
BTW while you are criticizing the IBD for not issuing a statement sympathetic to the victims - I would appreicate you showing me where the CBD has displayed such sympathy?
Finally at this point it is not even clear what we mean by victims and if in fact there were victims - since the CBD refuses to share their information with the IBD.
Avraham as I noted I am simply repeating my answers - and even someone as intelligent as you are simply ignoring what I say or are biased against hearing it.
Perhaps you could tell us if tefilos are accepted by those who heard about reports of abuse but did nothing.
ReplyDeleteSo why is it ok to overturn the cbd ruling without hearing the evidence? Instead ofthe the ibd and the 5 announcing SAFE! They should announce, "we don't really know anything!"
ReplyDeleteRDE- I value your points but will note that you are presently addressing many of my previous letters to you and not the items that I raised here. I was merely pointing out why independent concerned people did not share your viewpoint and were disappointed by the letter of the five gedolim and did not see it in the same positive light that you did. (That was neither an endorsement or repudiation of the CBD and their actions; they were not part of my post.)
ReplyDeleteI have not forgotten of the continued involvement of the IBD. My comments regarding thier concrete actions were positive; the "kol hakavod" was heartfelt.May they be successful. I trust that you begrudgely acknowledge that a independent individual would read the letter of the fvie gedolim and, if they are awre of their history, reach a very cynical conclusion.
@Joe this has been answered many times already
ReplyDeleteI didn't read your whole post, I already realized that you keep repeating yourself, so I have no patience, sorry. RDE will answer your questions.
ReplyDeleteI do have one comment thought, from when I started reading- the Israeli Beis Din members are not the ones who asked for the letter from the Gedolim. Though lemaaise the Gedolim are on their side.
Just to clarify.
I completely agree with Kishkeyum.
ReplyDeleteJust because you can't imagine that the C"BD" would make a big deal out of nothing, doesn't make it a fact. They actually did make a big deal out of something very small, as been proved until now various times.
I see no connection between the two Beis Din's, the Israeli is a Beis Din Tzedek, working according to halacha, and doing everything they need to do in order for the truth to occur. They are here to build and make sure things happen according to din Torah.
On the contrary, the Chicago people are not here to help anyone but rather to destroy. They tried to destroy Rabbi Meisels' life, and after sending out the letter decided that a better way to reach their goal is to close the seminaries. After that, everything else that you see is them trying to close the schools. That's why they said all the sales were sham sales. When they weren't successful with that, they tried to fire the principals, because obviously a school cannot run without a principal and will eventually close down. And that is the reason they got the colleges to stop scholarships and accreditation, it's just another one of their ways to try to close down the schools.
Bh they weren't successful, but that is what they were here for. Sorry to say this to you, but they DO NOT care about the victims.
I do not agree with you at all.
At this point there are many many other victims that the C"BD" has caused.
ReplyDeleteThose are the ones I am concerned about now.
You obviously do not read any of the posts. Here is what RDE said (the post that i was responding to) "Finally the head of the IBD - Rav Shafran - traveled to America and succeeded in convincing 5 American gedolim of the need of a letter publicly supporting the seminaries and indicating that they are safe and productive places of growth and spirituality."
ReplyDelete@Avraham - I do not have any direct information that the letter was solicited by Rabbi Shafran. I do know that he presented IBD's case to various rabbis. I don't know whose inititaitive it was - I should have been clearer.
ReplyDeleteI actually do read posts.
ReplyDeleteRav Shafran went to America for his own things. It could be that even once he was in America, he was still involved with this case.
Thank you. Some people will catch you on every detail, so it's good when also small things are correct. (no need to post this, just for you)
ReplyDeleteRabbi Meisels destroyed many more lives.
ReplyDeleteThe entire world has a " terrible track record in dealing with sexual abuse." No less than Jews and/or rabbis. Get a grip. The non-Jewish sexual abuse problem is far greater today than it ever was among Orthodox Jews. It was little understood by almost anyone until maybe 20 years ago or even less. So problems in the past was due to virtually everyone not understanding the nature of it. Your plastering hate against rabbis stems from deep rooted hostility towards Jewish religious leaders.
ReplyDeleteNone of that means that the rabbis dealing with this issue are not doing so with empathy, knowledge, care, carefulness and correctfulness. Indeed they are. You just are carrying over your historic animosity against rabbis.
And the rabbis in Israel are dealing with this case 100% correctly.
BTW, as an aside, where and what has the CBD shown any "sympathy towards the victims"? The IBD has clearly done so with the many changes they've implemented. And this is in light of the fact that the IBD only came into the picture AFTER the victims issues had already been dealt with by the CBD. The CBD in the shtar only charged the IBD for taking steps to in the FUTURE alleviate any further ongoing issues.
Don't be so curious. It is correct to protect the jobs of innocent staff members. To have innocent employees fired is a crime.
ReplyDelete@Jasper - how do you know? How many?
ReplyDeleteHappens not to be true. He did not ruin any lives.
ReplyDeleteHe actually built many many lives. You don't know the amount of girls whose lives were saved by him and his seminary. Out of the goodness of his heart.
And please don't go on now to tell me what he has done. What he did, did not destroy people's lives so that's not the point.
But that was not what RDE wrote until he changed his post. So why can't you simply admit that you made a mistake?
ReplyDelete"The abuse is not seminal, the debate is seminal. Has there been such a public tug-o-war in recent years of leaders vying to deal with the potential for abuse inherent in a system that takes young women from cities around the world and concentrates them in a school thousands of miles away at a cost to their families of tens of thousands of dollars?"
ReplyDeleteOf course other incidents haven't been the same set of events, seminaries, money, etc., but surely there's been many highly controversial (certainly including abuse cases) and highly debated (online and offline) events in the Orthodox world.
"Who incorporated seminaries into the Shidduch System? It's my understanding that the current Shidduch System evolved on its own."
In Europe prior to the 20th century most shidduchim were arranged between the parents. Our system is more liberal than our historic practice.
"Have you been following this blog? "Rape" has been part of the warp and woof of the discussion here. Nothing proved, but its been raised."
Yes, I've been following intensely. So what it's been raised. And if it was raised that Meisels might have been a serial murderer or embezzler that makes it realistic? Some anonymous poster(s) throwing the claim of rape into the cholent doesn't mean very much.
"I am left the vague feeling that there are girls who would not press charges if they are raped because of the concern that this would harm their Shidduch potential. Maybe I'm an aberration. I will tell you this: I learned from someone who had knowledge of a case of a girl that was raped here in the U.S. by someone from outside the Jewish community of her town, and apparently the police caught the man, but the girl refused to press charges, for the reason that it would affect her chance to get married."
There's not much you could do about that even if that were the case. Nothing will change a 19 year old Orthodox single girls opinion that even if she were raped she better keep that under wraps if she dreams of getting an even half decent shidduch. Very few 22 year old bochorim will be open to marrying a rape victim. As sad as that might be it is the reality and none of your proposals would change that. Even the kesuba recognizes the difference between a besula and a non-besula. Would the girl be okay with getting a kesuba for a non-besula?
"It would be up to each family to decide if they want to send their daughter to a school that does not participate in the program I've suggested, or anything similar."
The reality is that for 98% of the parents whether the school puts money into such a fund will be a non-issue in deciding which school to send their kids. And the same percent of schools will not participate. It will be quickly forgotten.
"Was his life ruined by what's transpired publicly since the Spring?"
Yes it was.
"I think he may come out of this relatively unscathed, and may start another seminary."
Not a chance in hell.
"I'm not saying that a girl who has been attacked should accept money in exchange for remaining forever single. I'm saying it will be harder for her to get married if she decides to bring her attacker to justice, and the money will cushion the hardship she will endure."
But almost no single girl will be willing to go public that she was sexually violated whether willingly or unwillingly. In fact if she did she will have to worry that people will wonder if it was willingly.
"Is not your point, then, that a girl would rather suffer an un-avenged rape than put at risk her marriage prospects? Thus, the savvy serial rapist will rape away, with sure knowledge he is immune from prosecution."
Basically no single girl will go public no matter what steps or system you implement. It will crush their shidduch prospects any way you cut it no matter what you implement. And they will not do that for any amount of money. There's nothing you can do to get around this reality.
I appreciate the change but am confused as to its relevance. Are you now saying that Rav Shafran traveled to America and met with these five gedolim (who live in four different cities), presented the IBD's side and then when they agreed he did not follow the standard procedure and request a letter of support but waited until one of them initiated it? Do you mean that it was one of the roshei yeshiva's idea from the outset, or perhaps someone else's idea for a letter? At the end of the day, does it matter? The five gedolim who he worked with, and who support him, still have the same checkered history.
ReplyDeletePlease do not misunderstand me. That is not a criticism of Rav Shafran as he is likely not aware of their respective baggage. I was just explaining the skepticism that greeted the publishing of the gedolim's letter.
The track record of the rest world is irrelevant. Is that how Am Yisrael judges itself? I specifically wrote that the mistakes of the past were likely due to a lack of knowledge. That, however, does not excuse Rav Kotler's actions in the Kolko case that happened last year. (Not twenty years ago). Additionally, truly great people admit their mistakes due to lack of knowledge. Sadly, none of the people that i expressed criticism of have exhibited that behavior.
ReplyDeleteThere are many wonderful rabbanim and roshei yeshiva that we all should respect. (If you actually read my posts you will see that I have quoted a good numer of them).Saying that I have "deep rooted hostility towards Jewish religious leaders" may make you feel better but my comments have always been very specific. I suggest you go back to RDE''s old posts as many of the cases that i noted are ones that he has posted on.as well. i welcome your explanations of those very specific cases; if you have none than you sadly acknowledge that my points are correct.
Why this nitpicking who asked for the letter first? Five of Klal Yisroel's greatest leaders felt strongly enough to take a public stand.
ReplyDeleteThe only "baggage" is in your mind. Your dislike of gedolim is not shared by the vast majority of the Torah community.
Link please
ReplyDeleteYou are in no position to judge the gedolim. And you are in no position to demand apologies. Did Moshe Rabbeinu issue a public apology for hitting the rock? What's your judgement on him?
ReplyDeleteThese gedolim are gedolim and accepted by Klal Yisroel at large as their gedolim *today*. What they say and write is highly relevant and highly considered by Klal Yisroel at large. Whether you care or not. And regardless however you "rate" them.
And your posts are as hateful as ever.
ReplyDeleteWhom the agudah messed up on, just like they messed up on twenty five years ago.
ReplyDeleteFirst,let me agree, this case is over, like it or not.
ReplyDeleteEXcept, what happens if one (or more, if they band together) of the mechanchim/ ot
I was intending not to post anything further in light of the fact that the issue is essentially moot. But there's an inaccurate perception here.
ReplyDeleteRav Shafran was coming to America for other reasons, his trip was scheduled before this entire fiasco. He even had a public speaking engagement advertised beforehand.
During his stay here, he was under continuing harassment by various interests, with various "suggestions" and "proposals." His basic response was that if Yarmish wants to sell it's Yarmish's business, but whatever happens would have to be agreed to by the entire Beis Din, and he is only one member of three.
Apparently, the askanim who were running this campaign got several Roshei Yeshiva involved, primarily the Novominsker Rebbe (who has a very close relationship with Gottesman, as does Rav Feldman).
From what I understand, this letter represents the backfiring of the efforts of those askanim, because the Roshei Yeshiva spoke to those involved and roundly rejected the CBD's position, approach, and efforts.
Take it or leave it.
The schools are opening. The safety of the students has been assured, the ashukim have been protected, and a steamrolling of halachah has been avoided.
Having no vested interest here, I have every right to say that I leave it to the One Above to deal with the bloggers and commenters.
I will now go back to the constructive use of my time as those who choose to jabber continue on their own missions.
Rav Levin is from Chicago but he is on the IBD side and one of the rosh yeshivas who came out against the CBD. Gotta keep the team members straight before you can be an umpire.
ReplyDeleteYour sentence "You might want to investigate two members of the CBD - Rav Levin and Rav Feurst. In short I don't view the CBD as necessarily the good guys and the IBD as the bad guys." I must say I don't appreciate this locution "You might want to investigate..." Either say what you think or at least come out with a declarative sentence. This locution leaves your audience thinking the worst. Rav Feurst is widely admired in the city.
Are you sure that you've been following this blog? Do you not recall that it was Rabbi Eidensohn who broached the topic of "rape"?
ReplyDeleteWhy are you so sure that Rabbi Meisels won't open another seminary? Rabbi Kahane of Chedvas wrote a letter that Rabbi Meisels' departure from the seminaries was part of a longstanding plan, and Rabbi Kahane apparently has the full confidence of the IBD and the 5 Gedolim, as Rabbi Kahane was and remains a teacher at Chedvas. Thus, Rabbi Meisels has on whom to rely if he should choose to explain his departure as a natural outcome of a process he had decided to initiate years ago. Rabbi Meisels can point out that no one has come forward to publicly accuse him. He can point out that the CBD failed to provide any evidence to back up their statements against him, and furthermore he might add that the CBD has been marginalized due to the high profile support the IBD has received in the form of the letter of the 5 Gedolim. Yes indeed, Rabbi Meisels can calmly, if he chooses, say that he remained above the fray, and that his predictions (that may be presumed he made) that he would be vindicated have been borne out by events.
There's more to say about your comment, but in deference to Rabbi Eidensohn I acquiesce to his desire to end this thread.
Rabbi Eidensohn, you have said the problem was in part PR. Shouldn't you think that a apology is part of the correct PR solution when there is any wrongdoing. Even if as you claim, it was only Meisels, than why not apologize for Meisels' conduct. Even, if as you claim it was merely Meisels the Hugger, since this is out of line with Bais Yaakov/Yeshivish standards, why not an apology for that?
ReplyDeleteBut how can the story be over if Touro and HTC continue to suspend accreditation? That puts the seminaries at an enormous competitive disadvantage. Granted they will hold onto some undetermined number of current students by a mixture of refusing refunds and by limited availability of alternative seminary openings. But that will not apply to recruitment for the 2015-2016 academic year. That recruitment season starts shortly and ends in a few months.
ReplyDeleteThe Haredi members of the CBD always can outvote R. Schwartz, however the panels are composed because the other three are Haredi.
ReplyDeleteThank you Elliot for the link. Yes, Rabbi Eidensohn quoted the first lines of the linked article.
ReplyDeleteThe lines that immediately follow were:
But last Saturday morning, these two bearded,
ultra-traditional Orthodox Jews were not walking to synagogue on the city's
heavily white North Side; they were riding in a car driven by a non-Jewish
friend to meet the Rev. Jesse Jackson on the city's mostly black South Side. "Yes,
we're Orthodox Jews, but it was a question of 13 lives that are in terrible
danger," said Rabbi Fuerst, referring to the obligation to violate the
Sabbath in a life-or-death situation. It has been 11 days since the government
of Iran officially disclosed
that it was holding 13 Jews on suspicion of "espionage for the Zionist regime
and world arrogance": its code words for Israel
and the United States.
Joseph, I expect we will shortly see civil suits for damages from abuse.
ReplyDeleteB/c he did not make a mistake, you naar. The letter was not gotten by R' Shafran.
ReplyDeleteI didn't make a mistake. I knew the truth. RDE admitted that he was probably misinformed. I was not.
ReplyDeleteWhy can't you admit that you made a mistake and all the info you have is what you read on the blogs??
@Yerachmiel Lopin - since you mentioned civil suits - what do you think about Rav Feurst putting Aharon Thomas in cherem for making such a suit against an alleged abuser?
ReplyDelete@Yerachmiel Lopin - yes the issue of Touro has not been resolved so far - and yes there are other issues. But the big picture has been clarified in favor of the IBD over the CBD. The Issue of Touro is for lawyers not bloggers
ReplyDeleteFinally the truth emerges. It was not Rav Shafran or the gedolim who came up with this idea but rather the askanim. RDE - you have had much experience in this realm and remember how the askanim convinced Rav Malkiel Kotler to back Kolko rather than his victim. Do you still believe that the gedoim thoroughly investigated the matter independently or perhaps their information came from the askanim? Is there any wonder why there is a loss of emunas chachamim?
ReplyDeleteIf a parent keeps things quiet, Torou will give credit on a case by basis. Provided someone (parent / school) pays appropriate fees.
ReplyDeleteHas the CBD issued an apology?
ReplyDeletePR is a distant secondary consideration if even that much.
It'll have blown over for the 2015/2016 academic year once people see how successful this year is going to be. At worst they'll have to cut the price of tuition to be a bit more competitive.
ReplyDeleteAct everything that happened regardless if his "retirement" was replanted or not there is a close to zero chance he'll try to reopen a seminary and less than zero chance he'll actually do so and even get one student registered.
ReplyDeleteIf that is the case, we will finally get a picture of what "really" happened - hugging or something more.
ReplyDelete@Avraham - are you deliberately ignoring what Ari B. said? Your comment bears no relationship to what has been said.
ReplyDeleteYour lack of emunas chachomim, Avrohom, in no way reflects a lack of emunas chachomim by most Hidden.
ReplyDeleteSadly you know full well what my point is. While many askanim act l'shem shmayim, the wolrld of askanim is a world of politics, personal interests and money where gedolim are manipulated. (It is embaressing to print that line but it is unfortunatley true.) I brought up the recent case of Kolko in Lakewood becuase that is exaclty what transpired as you surely know from your own investigation.As such the haskama of the five gedloim is tainted by the fact that it was orchestrated by others and was not the result of direct contact between Rav Shafran and the gedolim as originally reported.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the day the letter/haskama is largely irrelevant since it is the IBD who have taken responsibility for the seminaries. With Hakadosh Baruch Hu's help they should be successful.
Because I think he feels like he spent enough time answering everyone's annoying comments.
ReplyDeleteFascinating I have never seen you question RDE's emunas chachomim when he criticzies gedolim that he believes are mistaken (such as in the Kolko case or the Weiss/Dodleson saga ); can you expalain why that is so?
ReplyDelete@Avraham - I know what you are trying to say based on deduction and knowledge of some past events.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that I have been told by insiders that your guess work is wrong and that the gedolim were well aware of the facts behind the IBD and CBD conflict. Obviously even without inside information it is obviously true for Rav Levin who went against his own beis din.
@Avraham - you are coming across as always assuming that the gedolim are presumed not to know what is going on and are typically just being manipulated by askanim. In short you don't trust gedolim. Not sure if that is what you intended - but it certainly sounds that way.
ReplyDeleteWhile it is true in some cases - though the manipulation is often done by other gedolim - but it is not true in this case. Your presumption goes against the concept of emunas chachomim.
I do not beleive that in all cases gedolim are manipulated and i appreciate your trying to clarify my position. However, I do believe that it is a "meut hamatzay". Do you not agree? How else could you ever publish the critcisms of gedolim that you have published? Moreover, you noted that sometime manipulation is done by other gedolim: is that line consisent with emunas chachahim? I think that we both agree that this is a tragic problem that we wish did not exist.
ReplyDeleteWait, weren't you telling us on an earlier thread that you have inside info on exactly who got the signatures on the letters, and that their target was the whole Moetzes? Now suddently we see that you actually have no idea who the people were. Your falsehoods continue to increase, Pinnochio.
ReplyDeleteYour own invention.
ReplyDeleteI'm taking you at your own word of your self-described "loss of emunas chachamim".
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't the "askanim" either. You clearly have no idea, despite your claims to the contrary on earlier threads.
ReplyDeleteAn apology implies guilt, as you know perfectly well. That's why you're demanding one. If they are not guilty, they should not apologize.
ReplyDeleteThat's not the CBD's concern. They are concerned with shutting down the seminaries, which is why they are publicizing this thing in every way they can. Does extra publicity help the victims. Not at all. In fact, it can harm them. The CBD is all about hubris, not at all about compassion.
ReplyDelete" I think you will see in the coming days and weeks that your statement is incorrect."
ReplyDeleteThat could be true. I certainly don't believe that Gottesman and the so-called dayanim are done with their rishus.
I will respond to your comment and then let you have the last word (if you so choose) as our discussion is not really contribuitng to addressing the important issues.
ReplyDeleteTwo quick points; It would help your cause if you answer questions posed to you rather than avoid them and it would also be wiser for you to actually read posts carefully before responding to them.
I explained why instances where askanim led gedolim astray have caused a loss of emunas chachamim; your quote about my self described loss of emunas chachimim is inaccurate as you took four words that I said out of context. My last back and forth with RDE clarifed my position on this subject and he himself acknowledged that these cases, sadly, do happen.
I asked why you do not criticize RDE for his attacks on gedolim and you refused, or were unable, to answer my question. Either people have a right to question bad behavior or they don't? (I know that you read RDE'S blog so you have seen his often harsh comments, which he obviously believes are warranted, even when directed against some of the same people he refers to as gedolim.) Once again, why have you not critcized him for his actions?
The Gedolei Yisroel shlit"a themselves are quite aware of the current ongoing issue and can have decided on *their own* initiative to involve themselves and take a strong public position, as they have, in order to correct the public record that is being muddied by false allegations and to set things straight. And that's exactly what the Gedolei Yisroel shlit"a did. On their own.
ReplyDeleteHere too you are welcome to the last word - as I said to Me Gnsburg - but you really need to read all the posts and follow the thread. I stand by my claim that the oriiginal plan was to get the whole Moetzes to sign (having heard it from individuals connected to the seminaires) and nothing has moved me away from that position.
ReplyDeleteI have responded to RDE's post and then Ari.B"s addiition regarding the fvie gedolim's letter. It was he who claimed that the askanim arranged it.. Here is what he said: "Apparently, the askanim who were running this campaign got several Roshei Yeshiva involved, primarily the Novominsker Rebbe (who has a very close relationship with Gottesman, as does Rav Feldman).
From what I understand, this letter represents the backfiring of the efforts of those askanim, because the Roshei Yeshiva spoke to those involved and roundly rejected the CBD's position, approach, and efforts."
So you are free to argue with him but that is really not my issue.
I think you're just used to Gedolim being manipulated by Gottesman, so they would've been on your side.
ReplyDeleteSorry, not this time. BH Gottesman lost his control.
Silence from Jasper, of course.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad that you've now clarified (with what you indicated will be your last word on the subject) that you have not lost your emunas chachomim. Your previous comment certainly could have easily left the impression that you had.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the other points, do consider the possibility that in those instances where you think the Gedolei Yisroel shlit"a were wrong that they were in fact correct and you are wrong and wrong in assuming they are wrong.
Others who have been dealing directly with the participants strongly state that there was never any attempt to get the entire Moetzes to sign.
ReplyDelete"We are niether "CBD supporters" nor "IBD bashers";"
ReplyDeleteIn fact, that is precisely what you are.
"I stand by my claim that the oriiginal plan was to get the whole Moetzes
ReplyDeleteto sign (having heard it from individuals connected to the seminaries)
and nothing has moved me away from that position."
Of course nothing has moved you. Facts don't matter to you. You have an agenda, and it is the upholding of the rishus of the so-called dayanim of the so-called beis din of Chicago. You are ready to believe any bad thing about the gedolim, but these three bad actors are inviolable. As usual, you have everything backward.
I do indeed hate corrupt, dishonest dayanim, which is what the CBD has proved itself to be..
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your reaching out to me this way. Unfortuantely I do not check this email address often enough which is why I wound up responding in a more public fashion before seeing this note.
ReplyDeleteMay you have a wonderful day.
Kol tuv,
Avraham
@gref - your moshul is not accurate. The claim is that the assertion of a even a beis din are not credible in cases where they are refusing to reveal the information which is necessary for the well being of others and which they had previously agreed to share.
ReplyDeletewow! Im reading your blogs for the first time in a while and I see that you've finally caught up with the fact that the CBD is an egoistic insitution.for those of us involved from day one in the intricacies of this case not just by being part of the blogs; we have on our own felt out the sheker coming from cBD. We had no intention to exclude them; neither did the IBD but when the shekarim and personal motives were becoming obvious (one being, that shlomo gottesman runs torah UMESIRA and he wanted to be the one to buy the school only because his school; NAchlas was on the verge of closing down; he even went as far as to call up parents to tell them not to send to the seminary and rather have them go to nachlas)The way shlomo gottesman, shmuel furst and zev cohen are acting now is not new! it is a continuation of how they acted from day one. One day when you hear all the hundreds of recordings from staff and anyone involved of the behavior, language usage, motivation and goals that everyoone of them so explicitly state; not only you. But all the other bloggers on this case will reverse anything they ever stated which was negative not only about the schools but also about rabbi meisels. There is a phillip gottesman I'm reading about online which I have a strong suspision is shlomo gottesman. Phillip gottesman is a disbarred lawyer in 1987 on fraud and served a 2 yr sentence in jail. For those of us that have listened to his recordings and have seen him in action. It is the language and face of a criminal. I need to confirm this still. If thats the case; he will have a lot to answer for in the future. For now, the schools are open and like in the previous years, the girls are thriving.. This seminary offers their students more than any other seminary does. The only mistake they did last year was do a favor to a parent that had their daughter rejected to any other school for big reasons/issues and rabbi meisels decided to have rachmanus like he has so many times in the past and accepted her. I met CD. She's not well.
ReplyDelete