Tuesday, September 16, 2014

Rivky Stein and Yoel Weiss: 2nd Video of 10th of Av - Where is the Beis Din?



26 comments :

  1. Rabbi Michael TzadokSeptember 16, 2014 at 4:19 PM

    Waiting for the comedy show of reasons and outlandish arguments as to why this video supposedly proves nothing.

    Considering the that Rabbi Lichter claims to do 90% of all Gittin, someone should introduce him to the Gemarra Kiddushin 6a:
    Anyone who does not understand the nature of Gittin and Kiddushin should not involve himself in them.

    Rashi explains that one should not serve as a Dayan in these matters, for perhaps he will permit a prohibited relationship and the meaning of the verse “One should not involve himself in them” refers to these types of laws.

    The Shulhan Arukh paskens like Rashi
    Even HaEzer 49:3
    כל מי שאינו בקי בטיב גיטין וקדושין לא יהא לו עסק עמהם להורות בהם שבקל יכול לטעות ויתיר את הערוה וגורם להרבות ממזרים בישראל

    Anyone who is not an expert in the nature of Gittin and Kiddushin should not involve himself in them to teach these matters because he may easily come to err, thereby permitting a prohibited relationship and causing the increase of mamzerim in Israel.

    While the meforshim disagree as to the level of expertise needed to be mesader Kiddushin, they all agree that one needs to be expert to be Mesader Get, see Beit Shmuel 4, Taz 3, Pitchei Teshuva 2.

    So despite his repeated claims, while any three individuals may l'fi halakha form a B"D in monetary matters, only those who are expert in Gittin may form a B"D to deal with Gittin.

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  2. In fairness to Rabbi Lichter, and I certainly support Yoel Weiss on this issue, I don't think he meant any three people literally, despite how he said it. I believe he was speaking in the context that it doesn't have to be the same three dayanim as were originally dealing with the case. (I'm not speaking of the cherem.)

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  3. Rabbi Michael TzadokSeptember 16, 2014 at 6:05 PM

    Well he has said it numerous times. A few of those times have been in relation to the question, "Do you know these Rabbis, are they qualified."

    So I am uncertain. It could be that his intent is benign, but it could be that he is unfortunately unaware of the Halakha.

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  4. Considering his well established and earned positive reputation, to the point where the vast majority of the very large and highly diverse New York community utilizes him for the very critical halachic issue of writing gittin, if one is uncertain of his halachic knowledge based on a very short amateur video, I think it is best not to assume the least favorable possibility.

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  5. Back when we heard the phone calls from Yoel they already said the Rabbis got there late cuz they were in traffic so that's the obvious response to this video, and that is the same exact thing the people in the shul state in this video.


    But I find some interesting things here that once again support Rivky (as usual!). The conversation with the scribe is very interesting and so is the one with Rivky's brother. The scribe who writes 90% of Gittin (according to everyone on this blog) clearly rejects all the arguments made on this blog. He says that Yoel should give the Get regardless of issues going on in the secular courts. The video guy and the guy being interviewed argue back with all the arguments that are found on this blog -- clearly they were there in support of Yoel - which is why their entire "testimony" is a bit dubious. The scribe clearly thinks they are nuts (as do most sane people). The scribe also astutely asks the same question I have asked repeatedly. 1. Did Yoel show up to the hazmanah to at least verify whether it was a beis din? (NO). 2. Did Yoel propose an alternate beis din as the halacha states? (NO). So, the scribe is quite clear here with regards to the fact that Yoel is not following standard Gittin procedure - and he certainly should know procedure since he writes almost all the Gittin in New York.


    Further, the scribe states that a beis din for Gittin can be any three Rabbis and that if one party does not like the beis din they are supposed to propose an alternate beis din. In other words, he doesn't care who is on the beis din nor what their expertise is because guess what... it does not matter!! All the pontificating on this blog about the "qualifications" of the beis din are totally irrelevant in his eyes! You don't like the beis din... go propose your own beis din... and who really cares because he needs to give the get regardless! Hmm who has been saying that all along? eLamdan of course.


    Then we hear some more from the brother. He explains what the Mill Beis Din is. He once again states that the safra d'dayni is present - he is the one that arranges the beis din. This adds legitimacy (once again) and further refutes the claims on this blog. It also makes the viewer wonder why the guy with the camera cannot go in and interview the safra d'dayni. I think I know why... because that would help Rivky's side! The camera guy is doing everything he can to undermine the beis din... so we wouldn't want to go in there and talk to the actual beis din administrator now would we!


    Second, he explains that the Mill Beis Din is somewhat like an organized ad hoc beis din. For those who cannot afford to go to costly batei din, the Mill Beis Din acts as a communal beis din. The Safra D'Dayni gathers three Rabbis together (not necessarily the same ones each time) to issue hazmanos on behalf of agunos to the recalcitrant husbands. There is no official central location for this beis din and that is why all the ridiculous accusations that it has no "address" are utterly ridiculous. The Mill Beis Din, like the Sofer, does not see any connection between custody battles and lawsuits and the giving of a Get. They feel that it is their job to obtain a Get for the wife when the marriage is over, regardless of those other issues. This is the mainstream view (Charedi and Modern Orthodox) and it rejects quite clearly the view of RDE and company on this blog.

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  6. You are very good at quoting sources that you do not understand. There are many issues regarding gittin that need expertise. How to spell the names of husband and wife, how to spell the name of the location, there are some rules regarding the eidim and how it should be given over etc. Once a sofer of Rabbi Lichter's stature is present 90% of those issues are solved because he knows proper procedure fluently. In truth, Rabbi Lichter would not even need an beis din present to organize the proper giving of a Get he could just bring his own two witnesses and do it himself. Rabbi Lichter is not only entirely correct, he is also testifying that this is the way it is done often... so you have to wonder why your perception of how it should be done differs so greatly with what is actually done!

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  7. right... we only rely on fragementary information for certain things on this blog.

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  8. Rabbi Michael TzadokSeptember 16, 2014 at 9:59 PM

    02-5313-143/4

    That is the phone number for the Rabbinut testing division. Please call them immediately, tell them that somehow I was able to pass their tests on these halakhot, but yet remain incompetent.

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  9. Rabbi Michael TzadokSeptember 16, 2014 at 10:03 PM

    The comment wasn't based just on this video Moe. It was also based on the long and detailed coversation Yoel had with him.
    He's a sofer who knows the very fine parameters of writing Gittin. Great. That doesn't make him an expert in all matters Gittin.

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  10. The scribe clearly stated in the video that he doesn't know all the circumstances of this case and he stated he doesn't know who the dayanim are. He even said that as far as he knew the only secular court case Rivky Stein was bringing on Yoel Weiss was a visitation decision. Everyone agrees this is incorrect and as you see him state that he was unaware that Rivky is kneged halacha suing Yoel for tens of millions of dollars and using the secular system to try to keep Yoel from contact with his children and only thought visitation issues were in secular court. And the scribe is saying he is unaware of the fact that a phony beit din was created.

    All the scribe is saying is that as a general rule you don't need a specific beis din to write a Get. But this case is very far from typical as anyone with the slightest knowledge of the case is aware. Stein is engaging in unhalachic lawsuits against her husband and attempting to keep the children away from him. The divorce issues are far from concluded. And a Get is the last instrument that is issued after all other outstanding divorce related issues are first resolved. That is far from having occurred yet.

    "1. Did Yoel show up to the hazmanah to at least verify whether it was a beis din? (NO). 2. Did Yoel propose an alternate beis din as the halacha states? (NO).

    Incorrect. Yoel never got a hazmana. The phony document was only created for public relations and internet posting purposes. You can't respond and you have no obligation to respond with an alternate beis din when you were never summoned to any beis din case against you in the first place.

    "Then we hear some more from the brother. He explains what the Mill Beis Din is."

    The brother actually said he doesn't know who the beis din is and that he had nothing to do with the beis din - that it was done by other people.

    "Second, he explains that the Mill Beis Din is somewhat like an organized ad hoc beis din."

    He actually says that Rivky couldn't use a beis din per normal halacha as it is too difficult, costly, and "unfeasible" to quote him. So they made this so-called beit din. With dayanim no one ever heard of or saw. Three guys with a beard walking out of the shul don't constitute the original so-called beit din. And the original beit din issued a psak halacha in abstentia, something that is an open and clear-cut violation of halacha that a real beis din follows - that trying a case in abstentia and issuing a psak is against basic halacha - as anyone with even a minimal yeshiva education can tell you.

    "The Mill Beis Din, like the Sofer, does not see any connection between custody battles and lawsuits and the giving of a Get."

    Actually normative halachic practice has always been that the Get is only issued after all other outstanding divorce related issues have first been resolved. Only after that is the Get given,

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  11. Won't respond to each point because people can watch the videos and determine. But I will say that Yoel admitted he got the hazmanos in audio recordings put up at redeemrivky.com. He also states there explicitly that he has no intention of listening to any beis din.

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  12. You know the sources... you are just applying them incorrectly.

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  13. Rabbi Michael TzadokSeptember 16, 2014 at 11:29 PM

    By the way, you are saying that 90% of the issues are resolved by being expert in those issues. Interesting. Those issues are covered in precisely 7 of the 50 Simanim that one is required to learn in order to be mesader Gittin(at least by the Israeli Rabbinate, and thus to have your Get recognized by them).

    So while you are on the phone with the folks at Rabbinut telling them of my incompetence, why don't you tell them to ax those other 47 Simanim from the curriculum. In your Gadlus you have the ability to proclaim them unnecessary. A great many more people would be able to achieve and maintain their credential if there wasn't all that(what you seem to believe is) unnecessary learning. That would greatly help reduce the backlog of people waiting for Gittin in Israel.


    Or maybe Rabbinut knows what they are doing. Perhaps those 15 blatt(out of 73 in standard printing) don't quite account for the majority of the myriad details that a person needs to know to be able to be mesader Gittin. Maybe I am simply answering a fool his folly.

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  14. Rabbi Michael TzadokSeptember 16, 2014 at 11:38 PM

    Ah... but those Rabbinut exams require both a written an oral exam in how to apply the halakhot. So really you should call them, speak to them, and Rav Amar as well as he was one of the Rabbanim that sat my oral exam, and tell them that I managed to slip past them.

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  15. Yoeli DID respond with his own proposed beis din and the fake bais din Stein cobbled together ignored and didn't respond to Yoeli.

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  16. Gee, what are YOUR qualifications Mr. Anonymous "eLamdan" that you are able to question the certified rabbinate smicha of the very NOT anonymous Rabbi Tzadok?

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  17. All of those simanim have to do with the simple procedure of signing a get and handing it over from husband to wife??? I would assume the Rabbanut is having people study other areas of gerushin and kiddushin in case of more complex issues... but that does not mean that those complex issues exist in standard situations.

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  18. If that is the case then fine... there should be some kind of siruv if she did not show up and respond. She can then either respond by showing up or we begin the zabla process. If we followed halacha instead of this blog none of this would be an issue.

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  19. At 17:30 Rabbi Lichter asks Hillel Stein (Rivky's brother) if Yoel asked to go to the Tartikov Beis Din. Hillel denies it.

    Please see this comment. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/09/rifky-stein-yoel-weiss-israel-farkash.html#comment-1593726348



    Interestingly, this woman who was able to afford Shira Dicker's fees, supposedly didn't have money for a beis din. Listen to Hillel at 16:15.
    He also falsely claims that Rivky doesn't receive child support.
    He also fails to mention that they tried the BDA route, but BDA dropped it when the hazmana to Tartikov Beis Din was relayed to them.

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  20. Dear Mr. eLamdan:


    At 8:55 in the above video Rabbi Berlin says that this supposed "beis din" was just a tactic and that he has signed documents that this supposed "beis din" released Yoel of all the excommunications.


    Questions for you:
    1) Is Rabbis Berlin lying?
    2) When did these supposed dayonim sign to release Yoel of the excommunication?
    3-4) Why wasn't the release posted on redeemrivky.com (sic) - or at the very least, why wasn't the original supposed excommunication removed?
    5) If these supposed dayonim did not expect to be "stuck in traffic", why did they sign a release before they came to the "beis din"?


    You are not doing Rivky any good by brazenly continuing on with this silly ploy and fight. It's high time for Rivky to come out and settle this case. The first step would is for her to issue a public apology to Yoel. An apology as public as her smear campaign. You might as well cut your losses and simply move on.
    1) Apologize. Now.
    2) Commit to a serious mediator and seek to bring a proper resolution to this matter.
    What has this whole disgusting and reprehensible public war done for you, Rivky, or her children - Mr. eLamden?

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  21. Hi. I am a regular lurker here, and have followed your explanations of Get M'eusah etc. for quite a while. I realize that you are a Ba'al Halacha, although I concluded that fact from an online blog, so I really have no genuine evidence of that! Regardless, the following question(s) in no way are trying to make Yoel look guilty (more about that in a separate post).

    Please forgive me for asking for clarification on some things. I know that some of what I ask may have been previously stated in all these numerous posts. But by now, I am dizzy, especially because of all the repetition, and then frustration of the requests for repeated answers by a particular poster! But I am a bit confused about some things that I'm overhearing on the videos etc, that "sound" right, but is not how things are done. I suspect that others watching these clips may also get confused. I "have" a Get. I don't remember a requirement of a 3-man beis din to write the get. I knew that 2 kosher witnesses had to be there (I presume they signed as witnesses). However, it was certainly arranged by a Valid Mesader Gittin, to make 100% sure that there are never any shailos on it.

    For any lurkers reading this who are unfamiliar with how these things work, I am adding this paragraph:
    The reason I put "have" in quotes, is simply because as I understand it, our mesora is that the original Get is kept on file in a Bais Din. I have a document on the letterhead of a particular Beis Din asserting that a kosher get was given, (obviously under the supervision of this Beis Din). I received that document in the mail about a week after the Get was given.

    That document IS signed by three people. The first is the Dayan that was mesader the Get. I'm not really sure who the other two signatories are. I never really thought about it before. The whole process was a bit intimidating for me. The Get was written in a very large room in a semi-public building for technical halachic reasons with regard to the name of the city, and there were many people hanging around. Other people were around, including a relative of mine, for support. I knew my mesader gittin was qualified, the Rosh of an obviously well known Beis Din, so I trusted that things were being done correctly. I never looked at the signatories carefully until today, where they assert that they were there!

    Q. Did I really need 3 men from the Beis Din to be there when the Get was given to me? I'm sure the other two were there. Maybe the eidim are the two additional signatories. It's not a problem. My Get is 100% k'das moshe v'yisrael, Boruch Hashem. The two people who signed in addition to the Mesader HaGet, by definition comprised a Beis Din. Was this an additional Chumra, to make the assertion stronger? (certainly valid when dealing with such serious business as a Get). I also had to "accept" the get in a bunch of different ways, to cover all shitos, because of the seriousness of possible Aishes Ish and mamzeirus. Could the Mesader HaGet have technically been the only signature on my document, which had the letterhead, Address, AND seal of this particular Beis Din? I just want to know the basic halacha.

    You will see further that I'm not trolling. My questions are genuine, not in any way meant to challenge. (I do understand why Yoel requested these specific three men....)

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  22. Unfortunately, due to the default order of this blog, my second post is going to show up before my first post...

    I understand from what Yoel said, that he was never able to find this bais din, or it's signatories, by address or by telephone, and therefore understandably concluded that this siruv is bogus. There are suspicious documents that allegedly showed her ability to produce all sorts of graphic documents in the past, from various "va'ad hatznius", etc., so it's really not shocking that such a suspicion would occur to Yoel after attempts to find these people. Obviously, I can write a hazmana, a P'sak Din, a siruv, or even a document asserting a Get was given to me for myself on Microsoft Word, and ask 3 unscrupulous people to sign it for a few bucks! Or just use 3 different pens, and 3 different hand positions to get 3 different signatures. Whatever, you all know this.

    Unfortunately, it is impossible to prove a negative, which must be very frustrating, and INFURIATING for Yoel, who is being publically maligned and reasonably wants to defend himself and his reputation. Showing that deceit is being used can at the very least open people's minds that the allegations also contain dishonesty. But without an admission by the accuser, it's really hard to prove that certain things did NOT happen. And somehow, people's emotions cause them to lean toward a particular side... without a shred of proof. (I'm not addressing the rabbinical disputes regarding the "Get on Demand" issue now).

    Again, regarding the conversations that are going on in these videos, I want to get something else really straight – for myself and others:

    Q. For the purpose of (not the Get itself) settling disputes (even marital, custodial ones) is it really true that a Beis Din must be well known? What are the real minimal rules? Why must people go to organized Batei Din, if as we know 3 Kosher Jews are a Beis Din?! What if 3 Kosher Men got together, proclaimed themselves a Beis Din (as is done for hataras nedorim all the time!) and sent hazmanos. What is the halacha in such a case? I'm NOT talking about being mesader a Get. Just calling someone to a beis din to settle disputes. Can (real) people really technically do this? Do they have to have a permanent address? Can you explain when and when not such a thing is acceptable?

    In theory, if there really was such a Beis Din, this seems to be what they claimed to be setting up to do, as a public service. See the bottom text inside the box in the document in the link that Yoel provided here: http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/08/rivky-stein-yoel-weiss-exclusive.html#comment-1564511320

    Note where it says that they will "never publicize the names of parties that refuse to appear, or issue excommunications"! (THAT'S A DIRECT QUOTE) Same Beis Din, same signatories…
    Oops!

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  23. A plaintiff can file a lawsuit against anyone in whatever beis din she wants. When the defendent is notified by beis din that a case was brought against him he may choose to accept the beis din the plaintiff chose or he may decide to advise that beis din that he is excersizing his halachic right to not accept them and provide them the name of another beis din he has chosen. If the defendent has chosen another beis din, the plaintiff may at that time accept the new beis din the defendent chose. Alternatively she may not accept it, in which case the case goes to a "zabla beis din", meaning the plaintiff chooses one judge (dayan), the defendent chooses one judge and those two chosen judges have to mutually between themselves choose the third judge.

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  24. I appreciate your reply. And yes, I was addressing my questions to Rabbi Eidenson.

    1. I was not referring to disputes here. I used my own experience, and the absence of Dispute is clear. Perhaps I should have specified: when both the husband and the wife are not contesting the Get at all, and the husband WANTS to give it, in that case is a full Beis din REQUIRED for the actual proceedings? A Mumche in Gittin must be the mesader haGet, because of the severity and implications of a Get that is not 100% kosher. Two Eidim are REQUIRED. The reason I asked for clarity on the full Beis Din requirement, is because of all the talk that goes back and forth in the videos.

    My question was raised because of the things people say on tape, but no, I was not refering to this specific situation, where one party really does not want to give a Get.... YET. (There IS a reason that some people claim that Yoel DID say he wanted to give the Get. He is allowed to give a get if he wants to and she wants to accept it - no strings attached. Misinformation or outright deception led people to IGNORE or be clueless that he clearly ONLY wanted to give it, at this time, UNDER A VERY SPECIFIC condition: that those three dayanim showed up and proved who they were. And he had the right, and GOOD REASON to make that condition. It is quite understandable considering the public slander that is going on. By definition there IS a dispute here!)

    2. If anyone has been reading this blog for any considerable amount of time, they already know about the historic normative halachic process of giving the Get as the final act. You yourself have repeated this fact numerous times, I suppose in response to those who challenge that outright.

    With all respect, I never asked or challenged that issue, and frankly I feel it takes the focus OFF the CLARITY I was requesting, for the benefit of those who are reading this blog (as lurkers), and are listening to the recorded discussions between the people (including Rabbi Lichter, who is not a Mesader Gittin, BUT has experience in witnessing many Gittin. I think it is reasonable for them to doubt that Rabbi Lichter is an ignoramous or a liar).

    Thank you for reading my comment. Good Shabbos.

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  25. Thank you for the clear, and detailed response!

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  26. OK, update! I was speaking with a divorced friend, who ironically, because she is a ba'alas teshuva, asked a lot of questions about the Get to make sure she was doing everything 100% correctly.

    Perhaps I should feel foolish... or not. It's probably OK that I trusted a highly reputable Rosh Beis Din to arrange my Get K'halacha.

    The point is... she explained quite simply to me... that the Dayan who was mesader the Get, plus the two witnesses who he brought along... as a threesome, WERE the required Beis Din! My confusion was that I somehow got the mistaken idea that it was being said, that a 3-man Beis Din was needed in ADDITION to the witnesses! That would mean five men were required, and I didn't remember anything like that!

    Thanks again!

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