Saturday, October 12, 2013

Why R Mendel Epstein's cattle prod forced gittin are invalid

5 Towns Jewish Times by Rabbi Yair Hoffman  Most of our readers have read about the FBI sting against the Rabbis who perform what we can now call “The Cattle Prod Get.” In this column we will not be dealing with the aspects of Chilul Hashem and the breaking of American law. Rather, we will focus on whether these Gets are kosher or not in the first place.

The Mishna in Ksuvos (77a) lists a number of illnesses and professions in which a qualified Beis Din may force the husband to give a Get. The Gemorah both in Ksuvos and Yevamos provides further cases, and the final halacha regarding forced cases has been quantified in Shulchan Aruch Even HaEzer chapter 154.

THE DEBATE

There is a fundamental debate among the Rishonim, however, as to whether the cases discussed in the Talmud are the only such cases where a get may be forced upon the husband or whether they are examples of cases that may include other cases too. We will see that the final disposition of a forced get in most contemporary cases is dependent upon this debate among the Rishonim. The first view is that of the Rambam (Ishus 14:8), who rules that there are other cases where a get may be forced.

The next view is that of the Rosh and the Rashba. The Rosh, Rabbi Asher Ben Yechiel, rules in his responsa (43:3) that one may only force a get in the cases specifically mentioned in the Talmud. The Shulchan Aruch cites the Rosh in 154:5. The Rashba agrees with the Rosh in this respect as well.

MA-OOS ALAI

Most cases of divorces that appear in our times do not deal with the issues of these illnesses and professions. They rather deal with cases where the wife allegedly finds the husband disgusting. This is termed in halacha as “Ma-oos alai” – he is disgusting in my eyes. For these cases, the Rambam rules that a get may be forced, while others disagree.

HOW DOES A FORCED GET WORK?

The essential question behind this debate may lie in how a forced get really works. What is the principle behind the mechanism? The Mishna in Yevamos (112b) clearly states that a man can only divorce his wife of his own will and accord. It cannot be done against his will. Yet we find that the Mishna in Eirachin (21a) states that the way it works in divorces is that we can force him until he says, “I want [to do it].” How are we to understand how this works?

To answer this question, there seem to be four different approaches. [...]

It is pretty clear, however, from the writings of Rav Elyashiv and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach that they do not seem to subscribe to this view.

Indeed, a friend of this author was once present when Rabbi Mendel Epstein’s name came up in front of Rav Elyashiv zt”l, and Rav Elyashiv zt”l said, “Oh him? His Gittin are invalid.” This was said in reference to his forced Gittin. Whether Rav Elyashiv’s ruling applies to each person’s individual case is another story and a competent Posaim should be consulted regarding each case.

49 comments :

  1. This means the "Mendel Epstein Get's" are invalid. Including according to Rav Eliashev. There must be many mamzeirim out there from 20+ years of Mendel Epstein/cattle prod beatings induced gittin that illegally purported to allow many women to remarry while still halachicly married to her first husband, and thus producing mamzeirim with her second husband.

    This ought to be a real wakeup call to anyone considering a shidduch of a child of a mother's second marriage following a previous divorce.

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    1. Not only that. But even a "get" that a husband felt pressured to give WITHOUT being beaten, but he was merely in FEAR of being beaten, or in fear of other undue non-halachic pressure being applied to him, makes any "get" he gives an invalid get me'usa and his wife thus remains married to him and if she C"V "remarries" she is committing znus and if she has a child it is a mamzer.

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  2. What about the simple issues that three men who are paid by one party and don't hear the other party aren't a beis din, and thus can't be empowered to do kefiyah. Never mind their using women's desperation to demand extortionary prices.

    Also, enforcing a siruv against someone in contempt of beis din and forcing the gett you believe the beis din would have required are two different things.

    Third, I still have to disagree with the article because it's not a simple case of ma'us alai once there is a civil divorce. The man already signed something that promises no more onah. We've already discussed ad nauseum why I think that's relevant (given that the civil divorce was itself not compelled).

    Still, as per my opening paragraph, it is possible that a contemporary poseiq would hold like the Chacham Zvi and summarily dismiss Epstein's gittin as invalid.

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    1. Micha: A civil divorce is irrelevant regarding giving a "get". A civil divorce can be obtained by the wife even if the husband does not wish to civilly divorce. And a husband is not required to get a "get" simply because his wife wants one without having halachic "cause" to be able to demand one.

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    2. R. Berger: If you dismiss Epstein's gittin as invalid that makes a lot of mamzeirim considering his 20 years of beating men into giving a divorce.

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    3. Third, I still have to disagree with the article because it's not a simple case of ma'us alai once there is a civil divorce. The man already signed something that promises no more onah. We've already discussed ad nauseum why I think that's relevant (given that the civil divorce was itself not compelled).

      ===============
      Don't understand why the existence of a civil divorce has any halachic significance. Why is it different then any other agreement where the wife and/or husband agrees to give up onah for an indefinite period - especially since it isn't binding in halacha and even if viewed as a neder can readily be reversed?

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    4. "The man already signed something that promises no more onah" - This is pure fantasy. The man signed no such thing as a result of a civil divorce being granted. In most cases the civil divorce is forced on the husband when the wife sues him in court.

      Which state prohibits never married or divorced persons from having sexual relations or living together should they care to do so? None to my knowledge.

      The bogus non-halachic "sevoras", invented by the YU feminists in their never ending quest to impose feminism, never fail to amaze me.

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  3. Asher pihem diber shavOctober 13, 2013 at 3:47 AM

    As much as it is true that Rav Mendel Epstein's gittin were not good according to Rav Elyaahiv, I would be very careful before we start calling people mamzerim, when according to the Rambam and other Rishonim the gittin are kosher. This means plenty of Rishonim themselves have been misader kidushin to women in these situations. The person marrying these women, likely can say "Kim Li" like these Rishonim, and in that case there would not be even anything wrong with him marrying a woman from such a get. which may mean that the children are not mamzerim. Rav Elyashiv also may have meant that the gittin are no good, but I don't know that he said that the kids of the marriages are mamzerim. There is perhaps a huge difference between those two statements. I am not a Posek, I wonder whether anyone here can refute my logic, to be Matir the children.

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    1. Asher: And the husband can say "Kim Li" to Rav Eliashev psak (per the Rashba and Shulchan Aruch) that by maus alei he has no obligation whatsoever to give a divorce altogether.

      Regarding your comment, Rav Eliashev did say these type of gittin DO cause mamzeirim. The following if from Page 272 from the Artscroll book on Rav Eliashev:

      “For many years he (i.e. R’ Elyashiv) fought together with Rav Shlomo Shimshon Karelitz against the practice of imposing halaichly inappropriate sanctions to force recalcitrant husbands to give a get. Footnote: In recent years some women’s groups working to free agaunas have pressured dayanim and batei din to coerce recalcitrant husbands to give gittin even when coercion is not permitted by halacha. If a get is given under coercion in cases when halacha does not allow it, the get is invalid, the woman is not permitted to remarry, and her children from a subsequent marriage are mamzerim.

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    2. No we do not call the children of every woman who was unfortunate enough to have this Rabbi as a mesader Kiddushin mamzerim. So long as the husband gave the Get of his own free will and we have Eidim Chassidim, then while they should get another Kosher get for the future generations if the woman has since remarried, and had children those children will not be called mamzerim. My sources for this are Rav Shternbuch and Rav Triebetz.

      However any Get by these clowns in which the husband was forced is most definitely invalid, and a competent posek should be approached regarding the status of the children. Personally I don't think the internet is the place to start making pronouncements about mamzerut or not, and still urge caution until a competent posek can review all of the details of every problematic case.

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  4. perhaps Michael tzaddok would care to explain what the difference in halocho is between the gittin of epstein and those of the rabbanut when they throw men in jail. this is a forced get no matter how much ink has been spilt illogically claiming that the prisons of today are not so bad like the old days. Those who use these psakim know this is just pure nonsense. And I don't frankly care who wrote the tshuvahs - they are mistaken and deluded.

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    1. Sure Stan. As soon as you can say why Rav Eliashiv signed off on guys being thrown in jail to give Gets. Are you really going to say that there are no situations where Kofin is permitted according to the Shulhan Arukh and poskim? Do you have any idea how many divorces happen in Israel each year and how many the Rabbanut actually rules need kofin?

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    2. Michael: Please document any case Rav Eliashev ever signed an order to jail a husband in order to force a "get".

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    3. Already have on a different thread on this blog don't feel like going through it all again. If you want to find them, get a one day subsription to Otzar HaChokhmah or Bar Illan and search the Piskei Din.

      They were all valid cases of Kofin, however, that doesn't change the fact that he did it. No one has yet been able to actually demonstrate the Rabbinut has used Kofin against halakha.

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  5. michael gtzaddok - anyone associated with that corrupt rabbanut which is just a place for nepotism and halachik distortions is immediately disqualified as a competent posek. We have not forgotten the sickening nonsense you previously posted about Rav Gestetner. The only difference between his psakim and rav elyashiv's is the geographic location they emanate from. So everything you wrote about rav gestetnet is really a reference to rav elyashiv.

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    1. Stan you are still up to your trolling attempts I see. There is a huge difference between Rav Gestetner and Rav Eliashiv in psakim... You would actually have to read Rav Eliashiv's psakim before you could speak intelligently about them.

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  6. Asher pihem diber shavOctober 13, 2013 at 5:12 PM

    Rabbi Tzaddok,

    The Internet is unfortunately the BEST place for our society to weed out the corruption in our Batei Dinim. I have major issues with Epstien. My first issue is not the cattle-prod. It is the lack of Hazmana. How in the world does he pasken dinei nefashos without a hazmana ????? Let us not fool ourselves, kidnapping an adult man to a warehouse with stun guns can easily turn into dinei nefashos.

    The same happened with the Weiss Dodelsohn case "Siruv issued" when documents PROVE that the hazmanos were responded to, and no Siruv was warranted. This is CORRUPTION in our Batei Din

    I personally know of someone who had a psak din against him without ever recieving a hazmanah. When he contacted the Rav at a later time asking him how he could have written a psak din without sending a hazmana, he was just dismissed, as the "Rav" had more important things to do than deal with him.

    While the gittin were not al pi Halacha, the children being mamzerim is quite a question mark in my mind. and I would be hesitant to call anyone a mamzer, when the Rambam and other Rishonim approved this get. I am not sure, but I am wondering if "Kim Li" would be enough to ensure that none of the kids of even a forced divorce would be mamzerim
    As a not too accurate analogy, the Rambam says most of our Eruvin are passul. We don't pasken like the Rambam. But suppose we would, would we go ahead and stone someone who carried in our Eruvin that are approved by the Rosh and the shulchan aruch ?

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    1. The Internet is unfortunately the BEST place for our society to weed out the corruption in our Batei Dinim. I have major issues with Epstien. My first issue is not the cattle-prod. It is the lack of Hazmana. How in the world does he pasken dinei nefashos without a hazmana ????? Let us not fool ourselves, kidnapping an adult man to a warehouse with stun guns can easily turn into dinei nefashos.

      Agreed.
      While the gittin were not al pi Halacha, the children being mamzerim is quite a question mark in my mind. and I would be hesitant to call anyone a mamzer, when the Rambam and other Rishonim approved this get. I am not sure, but I am wondering if "Kim Li" would be enough to ensure that none of the kids of even a forced divorce would be mamzerim
      I'm not sure that Kim Li would work, for various reasons. Not the least the principle of Issur D'oraitta L'Chumra. However, I'm not in a position to rule on such a thing and a competent posek should be consulted before anyone makes absolute statements about such children.

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  7. Tzadok - the cases where bais din can be kofin are few and far between such as being gay, repeatedly beating a wife DESPITE BEING WARNED MULTIPLE TIMES BY BAIS DIN NOT TO STOP AND THE WIFE ADDITIONALLY NOT BEING GUILTY OF PROVOKING HER HUSBAND and going to work in a tanning factory. These cases are relatively rare and are not the cases of the rabbanut. Yosef Meyerson was not thrown in jail by the rabbanut and forced to give a get. So stop dwliberately misleading the readers of this blog.

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    1. Over the past 5 yrs the Rabbanut has only been kofin 3-5ppl/yr. So it would seem considering the vast numbers of people divorcing country wide that this number is actually really rare.

      I don't know the details of Meyerson case Stan and neither do you. You have yet to provide a Rabbinut Tik number, which indicates that you haven't seen all of the documents. So really we can't speak to the Meyerson case one way or another.

      Futher Rabbinut has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, so please stop Trolling.

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    2. R'Tzadok, a bit off topic, but you are the only Mekubal I "have" access to.
      I know that Adam's sin was considered the shevirat hakelim in Kabbalah, which led to a fragmented world. was there a second shevira when David sinned with Bathsheba? This sin fragmented his Monarchy, and caused the sword never to leave his house. any comments?
      thanks

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    3. It is the not the Shevirat HaKelim, but it was a Sheveira none the less which caused the world to descend in spirituality. So was the Dor HaMabul, the Egel HaZahav.

      I don't know if there would have been a world wide Sheveira with David HaMelekh's sin, I would have to dig into some sources for that, but there would have at least been a personal/family sheveira. Just as when any person sins.

      Now in all fairness to David HaMelekh, the Gemarra states that his Teshuva was so complete that it was as if he never sinned, and Rav Chaim Vital speaks on this in sefer Lev David. Futher I am fairly certain that the troubles that the Davidic Monarchy faced were on account of Shlomo HaMelekh's later sin(and lack of repentance). That is how it is recorded in the Zohar and the Remak has a long commentary on that as well.

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    4. The Navi, Nathan, gave a list of terrible consequences, which all took place. It seems these were not conditional upon teshuva not taking place. the sword never departing from his house etc.
      BTW, it seems from Koheleth that Shlomo did do teshuva. And G-d tells David that this would take place not in his lifetime.
      Anyway, apologies for starting a new thread - but I agree that each sin, and in particular the monumental ones, do leave a shveira in space-time.

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  8. Bottom lines are:
    1) I don't know how many gittin the rabbanut purport to write but a get written by an organization that repeatedly viloates halocho by throwing men in jail in cases of mous olai and is essentially a mamzer making factory is frankly hardly any better than mendel epstein.
    2) rav elyashiv paskens mo'us olai is not a reason to force a get and if you force one it will be a get meusa. this is exactly what rav gestetnet holds. Admittedly I dpon't know the psakim of rav elyashiv when he was working for the rabbanut. tzaddok seems to be claiming by implication that he may have paskened incorrectly then to keep his job and throw men in jail. I have no way of knowing if this is true. In his later years rav elyashiv was clear - no get for mo'us olai and was against the filthy practices of the rabbanut.

    And then for tzaddok to claim that rav gestetner is no good because the rabbanut which is a nepotist organization says so is just motzi sheym ra of the most egregious type.

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    1. 1) I don't know how many gittin the rabbanut purport to write but a get written by an organization that repeatedly viloates halocho by throwing men in jail in cases of mous olai and is essentially a mamzer making factory is frankly hardly any better than mendel epstein.
      You have yet to give a single case where you can definitively show that the Rabbinut has done that.

      2) rav elyashiv paskens mo'us olai is not a reason to force a get and if you force one it will be a get meusa.
      Wrong. A fraudulent Teshuva says that, however as has been demonstrated on this blog by actual piskei Din that Rav Eliashiv signed he does believe in forcing a Get in a case of מאיס עלי עם אמתלא מבוררת.
      Admittedly I dpon't know the psakim of rav elyashiv when he was working for the rabbanut.
      Which is precisely the problem. He never wrote any other psakim. Though he continued to write psakim for the Dayyanim on the Beit Din HaGadol that asked him questions which are also recorded in Piskei Din.

      In his later years rav elyashiv was clear - no get for mo'us olai and was against the filthy practices of the rabbanut.
      Sorry but that is an absolute lie. Rav Eliashiv didn't write Kovetz Teshuvot as the very title page of the books clearly states(and we have already discussed in it's place). Further all of the Teshuvot in Kovetz Teshuvot were taken from his rulings on the Beit Din HaGadol as recorded in Piskei Din. Unfortunately as has been demonstrated the various anonymous editors, who admit on the title page that Rav Eliashiv had nothing to do with the book, made their own fraudulent additions.

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  9. of course we can talk about Yosef meyerson as we have seen the documents that were presented by him to rav gestetner and in the end even his wife had to face the reality of the fact that the corrupt rabbanut had issued a fake get completely against halochoh. stop covering up corruption tzaddok. you were so quick to condemn rav gestetner but now apply another hypochritical but ultimately totally false standard when it comes to the rabbanut. and if you expect to sell me the brooklyn bridge and tell me there are only 3-5 men a year in jail, (or are they in jail and still won't give a get?), then what is the whole fuss of the feminists who rely on the rabbanut to implement their perversions.

    Bottom line: we have seen the documents of yosef dov meyerson and you are just obfuscating. what is the rabbanut file going to show - that he wasn't coerced, wasn't jailed and wasn't threatened. i am sure the zionists can invent anything they like.

    if it wasn't a coerced, fake get meuseh issued by your corrupt rabbanut tzaddok, why after receiving this paper not worth tolilet paper did she then agree to go to Eida to obtain a proper get? they were married for a week, no children, no inequitable equitable distribution no maintenance was involved so don't tell me they cut a deal.

    You have been cornered and you know it and won't admit the truth. you stand for shams for a rabbanut controlled by nepotism and corruption and frankly the gittin of the rabbanut are of the same standard as epstein, belsky and all the others that are kal she'bekalim.

    you had the nerve to call rav gestetner corrupt. you owe him and the readers of this blog a massive aploogy which I am not holding my breath waiting for.

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    1. of course we can talk about Yosef meyerson as we have seen the documents that were presented by him
      Right because everything he says has to be true. Put up a Rabbinut Tik number so that we can actually hunt up and look at the case or move on.

      Honestly we have only your word and his that anything that you say is true. What credibility is there in that? You are no different then Rav Epstein and Rav Wolmark hearing a case based only on one side.

      i am sure the zionists can invent anything they like.
      Just like I am sure that you and Meyerson can invent anything you like as well. Aside from the legal issues and such of false court reporting. Funny Rav Eliashiv had none of the problems that you seem to with Rabbinut and continued working with them long after he was no longer sitting the B"D. He apparently didn't see them as corrupt or their Gittin false. Who are you Stan to know more than Rav Eliashiv?

      Again you are simply being a Troll by talking about completely off subject things, and trying to bring up cases with only partial details.

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  10. tzaddok, no this is the subject matter. gittei meusah. you are simply lying by claiming that you don't know the facts of meyerson. it is very well known what the facts are. stop obfuscating. he was arrested and forced to give a get. what is so difficult and what pravda documents are missing. there are full details. the documents have been posted - they were supplied to rav gestetner and because you don't likme the outcome you can claim what you like. meyerson signed a mesiras moydoo even in jail that he didn't want to give a get.

    furthermore you are absolutely making an utter fool of yourself claiming that rav elyashiv did not hold that mo'us olai is not a reason to force a get. and you also know full well that the rabbanut's jails are not full of men who are either gay or beating their wives after mutiple warnings from bais din to stop but are full of men who are simply in a case of mo'us olai. you can claim otherwise but no one believes you and meyerson is the proof.

    i will reiterate there is full documentation that it was a forced get through the rabbanut and he was arrested in serious violation of halocho. because you have a real problem with the truth is your problem no one else's.

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    1. you are simply lying by claiming that you don't know the facts of meyerson.
      I don't know the facts Stan. No Tik number.

      furthermore you are absolutely making an utter fool of yourself claiming that rav elyashiv did not hold that mo'us olai is not a reason to force a get.
      I have posted sourcing for three of his Teshuvot where he signs his name saying specifically that מאיס עלי עם אמתלא מבוררת was reason to pressure the husband to give a Get. Sorry Stan, but they bear his signature. You are simply lying to say that he signed something he didn't mean.

      you also know full well that the rabbanut's jails are not full of men who are either gay or beating their wives after mutiple warnings from bais din to stop but are full of men who are simply in a case of mo'us olai.
      You have yet to offer a single shred of evidence to this accusation. I know no such thing.

      i will reiterate there is full documentation that it was a forced get through the rabbanut and he was arrested in serious violation of halocho. because you have a real problem with the truth is your problem no one else's.
      Tik Number so that we can see all the facts or it never happened.

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  11. oh and when the biryonim of the rabbanut arrested meyerson they had meyerson's documents of him being mesiras moydoo? please tzaddok you don't live in a parallel universe but fantasy universe.

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    1. Tik Number Stan so that everyone can actually see the facts, all the facts, otherwise I will not discuss this with you.

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  12. tzaddok decided they made their own fraudulent additions. so you can't have it both ways, we can't rely on any of the documents coming out of the rabbanut according to you anyway.

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    1. I didn't decide, it is as plain as day. You can't claim that you were copying over a Teshuva from say Piskei Din Vol 2 P.3 and then add parts that are not found there... Seriously Stan how obtuse are you going to act?

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  13. Tik no. Call rav gestetners bais din and ask him for his tik number for meyerson. Contact rav nissim karelitzs bais din and ask him for his tik number. Why is the tik number of the corrupt rabbanut a better number than either of the other 2 botei dins tik numbers.

    Bottom line is that rav nissim karelitz retracted his psak and said there was no chiyuv legaresh. So tzaddok if its the corrupt rabbanut vs the 2 premier botei din ib the world, any reasonable person would do the the rational thing and go with the 2 premier botei din.

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    1. Tik no.
      So then we do not have all the facts. You do not have all the facts but you are sure that he was right then Rabbinut was wrong.... Sorry Stan but we have only your word, and that isn't enough. Do your research and when you have all the facts and can present them logically then we can talk.

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  14. Nobody claimed anything except you. That rav gestetner is corrupt.

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  15. Tzaddok I will say this for the last time, we have the documents and unless you can prove he was gay or repeatedly warned by bais din to s r op beating her you are lying.

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    1. Then what is the Tik number Stan? IF you don't have that you don't have all the documents.

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  16. Please explain to me tzaddok why uzi frenkel escaped from rabbanut custody was arrested by the zionist thugs to force a get. He is not gay and his wife was in arko'oys yet nothing in terms of violence came up let alone not being warned by botei din multiple times to stop violence?

    Tzaddoks answer: tik number. The truth: get meuseh and rabbanut violation of the torah

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    1. Tzaddoks answer: tik number.
      You are right. Because I refuse to discuss cases to which I and the rest of the world have only partial knowledge. You believe what you want to believe, but you don't have all the facts and you refuse to try to get them.

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  17. Avi koenig visited israel for the yomim tovim a few years ago. His wife was in arko'oys. He was awarded custody which doesnt occur if there's allegations of physical abuse. He was thrown in jail and forced to give a get.

    Tzadok stop your dishonesty already.

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    1. Is Avi Koenig an Israeli? Otherwise how could he be jailed?

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    2. Stan you are a Troll. Pure and simple. This the third case you want to foist on us without the facts.

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  18. Asher pihem Diber ShavOctober 14, 2013 at 4:00 AM

    I am trying to explain what Mendel was thinking. Here goes....
    1. He has a psak from a hidden "Gadol" that all of these types of cases one may and should force the husband to give a get.
    2. He sent three letters to the husband so it is considered as if he contacted him and he was mesarev din. Especially if he isn't frum anyway, who are we kidding he is not coming to beis din
    3. It is not really kidnapping. No one ever gets held any length of time. No one is getting hurt. Just a few shocks of a stun gun. Of course I don't tell that to the woman. I need to sell it to her for her to pay the 100k for the job. We have to be dramatic to get the customer. Cattle prods, all for dramatic effect
    4. At the end, the wife gets the get. What's there to worry. the ends justify the means. I am providing a service for he women. I am doing a mitzva no one else wants to do. I should get paid. I deserve it. Besides, I need money for me and my family.

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  19. Dovid. No you know longer need to be Israeli to have the privilege of being arrested by the zionist thugs.

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  20. Doivd call rav gestetner up to confirm this.

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  21. Asher pihem diber shavOctober 14, 2013 at 2:05 PM

    The above is a joke. The truth is, these Rabbonim are the reason that no one uses beis din. They make a mockery of Halacha. No one going in to beis din feels comfortable that they Dayanim will pasken din Torah. The goal of the business is to get rich. The chillul HaShem in this case is staggering. Think of how many people, on the periphery, after hearing this case, will avoid giving gittin altogether.

    Until we weed out all the corruption in our Batei Din, take the money out of it, we are going to have this again and again.


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  22. And tzaddok what about Mr myerovitch of NY who was arrested last year and held in jail for months because he refused to give in to the gamgsters of the rabbanut.

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  23. tzaddok if you have evidence disputing the ruling of rav nissim karelitz and rav gestetner present it. after all you always have a forum here no matter how ridiculous or false your claims are. The burden is on you not me. Since 2 botei din had the documents with regards to yosef dov meyerson and a nice boy from NJ (the words on your laughable blog) disputes 2 gedolims rulings you need to provide the evidence.

    enough of your shekorim already tzaddok. bottom line the gittin of the rabbanut in contested cases when a man is forced to give a get = the non gittin of mendel epstein. you present the evidence you claim is out there. rav karelitz and rav gestetner felt they had sufficient evidence to make rulings. Who are you to dispute them?

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