Wednesday, August 1, 2012

Tamar Epstein's feelings about Aharon: Court records

 I have seen the court records which the following was excerpted
 =========================
Another Guest Post

When Tamar abducted the child she had with Aharon from Silver Spring to Pennsylvania, she left behind in the apartment notes on her marriage to Aharon.  Tamar acknowledged that she wrote these notes both in the Baltimore Beis Din and in civil court.

The following are excerpts from those notes:

Why I love/like Aharon/what I respect:

respect: shmiras halashon

loyalty - I can trust will always be at my side when crises

makpid on kashrus and davening

idealistic - can also be tiresome/absurd

loving/sweet/ affectionate/gentle to me

lets me spend money - equal share

sometimes helpful

open/honest/real to me

doesn't pressure me to go back to work

appreciates me - taking care of baby etc.

=================
Perhaps this is at least part of the reason the Baltimore Beis Din, to which the parties brought the matter, and which held several hearings in the case with the participation of both parties did not rule that a get should be given.

There are no grounds for kfia (coercion against Aharon to give a get). This is not even a valid claim of ma'os alai. How could anyone believe that a get given in this case under pressure of a kidnapping and beating (or even ORA's demonstrations) would have any validity?

47 comments :

  1. here you have a clasic axemple of the false "muis uli" cry,shame on you ORA with your false "agunot" cry

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. How can a maus-alai-claim be false when the wife is separated from her husband and already went through civil divorce?

      If she is separated and refuses to come back, she does not want to live with him, so the claim of "maus alai" is not false.

      maus alai is profoundly subjective, and no matter whether Rabbis, the husband, or others understand why he is maus alai - if she goes away, he is maus alay.

      Delete
    2. The Halacha in the Torah is as follows:

      Civil Divorce has zero meaning as far as halacha. Whether there is or isn't a civil divorce it is irrelevant as far as Gittin is concerned.

      If she is separated and refuses to come back, that just makes her a "moredes". It does not make maus alei.

      Delete
  2. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7607777740102230188

    please watch this movie (no immodest scenes) and tell me where you see the differences and similiraties between jewish and iranian family/divorce law...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I have always had the wrong opinion of Iranian Justice. It seems they are pretty much on the mark after all.

      Delete
  3. ONE SECOND HERE----
    This was taken from her diary?? and she admitted under oath in court that these were her notes??
    ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!
    you mean there was no abuse, beatings, mistreatment?
    and Epstein and all the corrupt rabbis and crying "agunah" ???
    what is going on here!?
    SHAME on you Epsteins!!

    ReplyDelete
  4. Wow! this shows a innocent girl trying hard to work on her marriage , not yet fully excepting the sick cold hearted person her husband really is.
    Their is no way in the world such a person did this just to drop her marriage.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You have already been caught lying in previous posts.
      Quite the contrary, either way this shows that either she committed perjury or you are spinning your web of defamation again.

      Delete
  5. are you sure it's muttar to publicize these private evaluations of a person (not everything is complimentary)?

    ReplyDelete
  6. are you sure it's not lashon ha'ra to publicize these private notes?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think you are better off asking if oras tactics and an attempted beat down are within halachah. It is quite obvious that Tamar and her family are a danger to all men out there.

      Delete
    2. I agree, full heartedly, that what Ora is doing is way off.

      And we should do all we can to show the halachic problems in their position.

      But that doesn't give the right to gossip about the personal relationship between the couple! If Aharon wanted to reveal that to get public support, that's something else.

      Delete
  7. and we pasken that maus alai is not entitled to a get she is entitled to sit until she turns grey

    ReplyDelete
  8. Having extensive experience with marriages in trouble, observing many working out and others dissolving, I have at least anecdotal support for my premise.

    In general, the couple gets married with feelings of admiration, hope, and proper motivation to develop a deep loving relationship. It is rare that there are feelings of hatred, vindictiveness, and disgust. However, imperfect as humans are, some marriages deteriorate and eventually come to an end. Some choose to handle the dissolution amicably, but, unfortunately many do not. Generally, this latter category results in several unhappy people, busy with their anger and resentment, ongoing bitterness, and often working to support their attorneys with ongoing actions. It is extremely rare that a wedding is held for two young people who dislike each other.

    The same marriage that was once blissful can turn into a horrific arrangement, and it is these marriages that become the divorces that we read about - providing there is enough material to make the breakup newsworthy. The case described in this article seems to suggest that the list of positive traits written by the wife somehow diminishes her case against her husband since she really admires his qualities. This notion defies the changes that occur over time. Presumably every bad marriage was once good (I know that is an assumption). The same tzaddik or tzadekes that went under the chuppah can evolve over time into a nightmare.

    I do not know enough about ORA and its supporters to have an educated opinion. I do know that there needs to be some organization somewhere that can intercede to bring about gittin when a marriage is irreconcilable. My experience places the faults rather evenly divided, and the blame is seldom relevant. There needs to be menchlichkeit when a spouse is unable to return to the marriage. Just give or accept a get. Negotiate the terms first. One can mediate with a third party, or arbitrate with a beis din. If one is so enthralled with supporting the legal profession, then litigation is an option (where everyone but lawyers lose). I have already spoken to rabbonim who were supportive of intimidation because they took a side. When they advocate one spouse demanding a payoff in order to agree to the get (giving or receiving), I scratch them off the list of rabbonim who I accord any respect. Hostage taking, whether the get, the children, or anything else is violent crime in my book, and the absence of morality is beyond my tolerance.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I do know that there needs to be some organization somewhere that can intercede to bring about gittin when a marriage is irreconcilable-- one that tries to prevent marriages from falling apart is the much more important organization. Well perhaps for those who are done, yes some real organization whose interest is in peace justice and not one who panders to the woman, but to halacha, and common sense. Definitely not ORA.
      My experience places the faults rather evenly divided-- not exactly, it is almost always the woman who leaves, and usually the woman who is at fault for having unreasonable expectations, and who herself is usually not such a good wife.
      As a community we should have batei dinim. The first step to have batei dinim that are respected is 1) no salary for dayanim or toanim. 2) rabbis who recuse themselves when they know either party or are related to them. 3) Rabbis who follow halacha.
      Holding a woman hostage for no reason is not an often occurrence. A time period should be set for working it out. 6 months: or something like that. Parents and relatives and well meaning friends should be advised to give the couple space and time. If the woman still wants a get after that time, she should be granted one in conjunction with asset separation, child support and visitation.
      Rabbis should not be involved at all in the proceedings of a particular get unless they are on the beis din. Rabbis should not write letters against or pro the man or the woman unless they are on the beis din.
      Because Batei Dinim are so many and so not respected, People should have a vote as to which Beis din is the most fair, and we should appoint one beis din in each city.
      Takanos, should not be about how many kids can be invited to bar mitzvas, it should be about how we can fix and give respect to our batei dinim.

      Delete
    2. Kaiser, this is really an important post. Of course, the solution to this is to have each community armed with individuals who know what to do to allow a peaceful GET. But the problem is where we find such people. Arre you willing to be one?

      Delete
  9. Recipients and PublicityAugust 2, 2012 at 1:56 PM

    Has it been considered that this woman exhibits the personality and character of a boderline and is something of a sociopath? Has she ever submitted to a thorough psychiatric evaluation? Another very strong possibility is that she has swallowed the feminist anti-male ideology hook line and sinker.

    She wants a get because she wants a get, sounds so childish like a kid who wants an ice cream because they want an ice cream. Like those people who get up one day and decide to divorce their spouse and move out of their homes because they are "giving up all their 'addictions'"? One day she is in love and the next day she falls out of love, just like in all soap operas and cheap melodramas, as if "falling out of love" or a state she may have imagined she was in is not there one day. Or she may have phobias about men or sexual relations and may just be frigid, so who knows, because all these things are always potential factors and ALWAYS covered up by the exterior "presenting issues" that have nothing to do with the real state of affairs.

    What kind of woman whips a frenzy and goes around speaking about her life as if she was a "Mother Teresa" when all she has done is run away from her husband and tries to abduct their child -- and stand by as he gets beaten up? This is not uncommon sadly, and all too often the courts and society will side with the woman as gross obvious immaturity and public tantrums make this woman into a heroine.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. RAP If you don't know the person don't rap them. It makes you look silly and stupid .
      She left him because he is emotionally cold , abusive and controlling.
      After close to 4 years , someone should talk to anyone and do anything to change their situation.

      Delete
    2. avf,
      Tamar believed that Aharon "was loving/sweet/ affectionate/gentle to me"
      Whatever reasons she left are not those you have claimed. You are continuing to repeat the same lies even after your lies have been disproved.

      Delete
    3. If that's the case tamar epstein committed perjury and anything she says is worth as much as the bogus seruv!

      Delete
  10. R' Eidensohn, I cannot fathom what goes through your mind when you post this stuff or when you allow this stuff to be posted. Most intelligent people understand that there are certain conflicts in which it never, ever pays to get involved. As much as you may feel that Agunah status is overused, or that husbands get a raw deal, it is useless to use any one case as an example, because you inevitably get tangled in the weeds. There are *always* fourteen sides to a story like this. People *never* come across well, whether it's the husband or wife or supporters of either side.

    For some reason, you decided to eschew good judgement and post about this case in detail. And look where it's gotten you - your blog, which for a long time was a destination for people looking for relevant content on issues that are either suppressed or fanaticized in other places, now features excerpts from a woman's private diary that barely belong in court, let alone in the public eye. This is ideological pornography, and it's here because you started chronicling a story that should have been left to ideological pornographers. You should take it down, because it's beneath you and your blog to have it up, and because it will allow you to focus on areas in which you and your readership can, in fact, engage, educate, and possibly make a small difference.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. congratulations! I fully agree with this comment.

      although I start to doubt whether the motivation of the blog owner is as pure as the comment assumes.

      Delete
    2. it is OK for Tamar to publicly accuse Aharon of abusing her during their marriage, but not OK for Rabbi Eidensohn to publish Tamar's notes that disprove her vicious allegations?

      Delete
    3. confused observerAugust 2, 2012 at 8:46 PM

      I have the same question . The answer I'd guess is that R DE is nogia "bribed by family ties " from his brother. His brother R dovid seems like a wacky extreme rabbi who makes part of his life work to defend husbands who like to keep their wives agunas . This is the only explanation for R DE who dosnt know any of the people involved from getting involved in this story and these situations.

      Delete
    4. I pride myself as being relatively balanced. I agree with RDE sometimes, and I disagree other times. Should this post have been published? Here's my take. I hardly believe that the opinions of readers about the Aharon & Tamar Epstein case make any difference. The issues to be discussed are about the process, and the systems that we either like or dislike. Those issues have been placed before the readers here, and many of us have spoken. Whether we believe either one of this couple are right will not influence matters at all. We might fantasize that our binary entries of data in the comment sections of blogs make decisions happen, but that is Walter Mitty at his finest.

      Delete
    5. "ideological pornography" -- powerful concept.

      Delete
  11. rabbi eidnson, please dont fall to the bate this so called chaim z trys to trap you with, it only indicades that the epstiens got the mesage,go on with your good work

    ReplyDelete
  12. Get real here -
    from day one, the Epstein's have been playing filthy dirty. Someone publishes a public court document showing some of the background and you get all up in arms?!?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The issue is not about the parties interacting with each other. It's about outsiders getting involved. In fact, when the Rabbonim in Silver Spring and Baltimore encouraged people to join the demonstration for a get, my reaction was the same - it's not anyone's business, and nothing can be gained by being involved. This is just a different example of the same thing.

      Delete
    2. 1) I never heard that the baltimore bies din or the silver spring botei dinim encouraging demonstrations.

      Delete
    3. @Baltimore 13: I did. This dates back to December 2011, based on the online discussion in which I participated and felt that outsiders should not get involved.

      Delete
  13. What does it mean "she left behind notes?" Was this some (obviously failed) attempt from suggestions in self-help books or therapy to rescue the marriage? Were they in a box or the back of a file drawer? How close in time were the notes and her leaving? Sure, his lawyers had to mention the notes or be negligent, but without context which nobody has provided here, it's unclear whether the notes undermine her assertions or are just sad.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I am quite shocked that many commentators here seem to assume that it is OK to force a wife to stay in marriage she does not want.

    Is this true judaism?

    If this is the case, where is the difference with islam as it is practiced in Iran today?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. why are you defining true Judaism as that which is different than Islam as practiced in Iran? In fact Judaism and Islam have much in common as does Christianity - but that is totally irrelevant in determining halacha.

      Delete
    2. No, the other way round: if halacha as it is determined today gives women a position akin to that of women in Iran today, I am not sure I would like to live in a state governed by this religion. Fortunately, such a state does not exist at present.

      Delete
    3. Actually if it isn't "Darcheia Darchei Noam" - pleasant , it ain't Torah.

      Delete
    4. "halacha as it is determined today" is the same as halacha as it was determined 1000 years ago.

      If you don't like to live a halachic life, that's your problem.

      Delete
    5. avf,
      You say if it isn't pleasant it isn't Torah. Does that mean if a person is married and the spouse becomes ill mentally or physically with no cure that the Torah would just have the sick spouse dumped? Or what about caring for parents who are difficult to care for? Are you saying that any time something, say marriage, becomes unpleasant that the Torah cancels it?

      Delete
    6. Actually its the Torah that says it , not me . The Torah is teaching us that its Halachas are pleasant , if you interpret the Torah as teaching that its ok to keep your wife an agunah than that's not Torah.

      Delete
    7. so big shot - think of an eved ivri who can be forced to produce slave babies for his master - or an eved cnani who can be bought and sold on the slave trade and forced to have a bris and if freed is forced to convert - or a guy who is warned not to and keeps his handkerchief in his pocket and is stoned to eath - or a person who is mezne and gets chokes to death or burne (/bas Cihain) all torah misinai - dont like it lump it

      Delete
    8. Avf, Contrary to what your supreme heretic leader Jeremy Stern says, Halacha dictates that a husband who's wife is a moredes, he is not required to give her a get. Not every woman who wants a divorce falls under the category of Agunah! This is the problem today that the term is so loosely used, the real agumos are the ones that lose out. Based on the notes posted and her hostile actions against her husband she certainly does not fall under the category of agunah but most definitely a moredes.

      If you don't like it lump it. There are many things that halacha dictates that are not pleasant for some. Keeping kosher, not wearing shatnez etc.

      You are another example of the YU kool-aid drinker that tries to mix torah with secular feel good do what I want culture. The two just don't mix!

      The torah is pleasant when it is kept and not perverted.

      Delete
    9. The wife isn't an agunah. She is a moredes.

      Delete
  15. how do u define pleasant - obviously not in the normal context - is fasting pleasant - is not eating bread for a week pleasant - is getting up each morning at 5 to learn a daf and daven pleasant - not in the conventioal definition - so tashaiv ad shetalbin is also pleasant - do we really know what pleasant and good is

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jewish1 - I'm not sure why your asking me your questions on the Torah ? 2- obviously You don't know what pleasant is.
      Silver spring, abe - many great Rabbis have said that she is an agunah.

      Delete
  16. "many great Rabbis" - that are either nogayeh b'davar or have never bothered to look into the details. I have spoken to many of these "great Rabbis", some of them for hours, and they have all realized (most won't admit it)that they have been fed lies from day one.
    so why won't they do the right thing you ask? "it won't help anyways", "who am I to go against Rabbi K" and many other similar excuses.
    What does Chazal teach us about someone whom is malbim pnai chavero b'rabim? The one whom got all the rabbis together against Friedman, is now finding out the hard way. but its not just this world that they lose, but absolutely no share in the world to come

    ReplyDelete
  17. Is kidnapping a child and trying to prevent that child from having a relationship with her father "pleasant"?

    ReplyDelete
  18. Wife believes that her husband is "sweet, loving, affectionate, and gentle to" her.
    Wife's parents and their friends, like avf, dislike the husband for reasons having nothing to do withand insist that husband is "emotionally cold and abusive" and pressure wife into leaving marriage.
    Wife's parents and their friends convince wife to abduct the couple's child out-of-state and do what she can to prevent child from having relationship with husband - including violating agreements with husband lying to court and violating orders of the beis din to which the parties brought the matter.
    avf wonders why wife doesn't have get?

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.