EJF - Halachic justification/ / Roni

After two years of repeated requests - our chaver Roni has succeeded in providing us with two critical pieces of information regarding Eternal Jewish Family. 1) The teshuva of Rav Reuven Feinstein, shlita - which provides the halachic rationale for EJF's kiruv (proselytization) of the non-Jewish spouse in mixed marriages 2) the explanation presented below of why there are no written haskomas from the many gedolei Torah who are actively associated with the organization or at least attend their conferences.

I would like to publicly thank Roni for his tenacity and desire to present the truth as he sees it and the countless hours he has spent trying to explain and defend R' Tropper's activies. It has obviously been an unpleasant experience for him to constantly face and explain to those of us who are less than sympathetic to what is going on. I will also reiterate what I have said a number of times before - I think that R' Tropper and his associates are working leshem Shamayim. However that doesn't preclude the possibility that their approach can be harmful and fail as Roni admits below. I will be transferring a number of comments from the previous posting that are relevant to this thread. Please keep your comments to the point, respectful and avoid personal attacks.

With these pieces of information I think it is possible to have a more productive discussion of these issues. I would like to note that Roni seems to feel Rav Reuven's interpretation of his father's position and other statement as Daas Torah. I apologize if I misunderstood this and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong. I just want to reiterate a conversation I had with Rav Dovid Feinstein regarding this issue of his father's authority. He said, "I never heard my father justify his psak by saying that it was Daas Torah." Rav Moshe clearly states this in his introduction to Igros Moshe, the essence of his rulings are sevoras. His rulings are to be judged by the perceived validity of his sevoras. He also acknowledges that he is capable of error but that since he has put so much time and effort in arriving at the conclusion which he thinks is correct - one should not be hasty to dismiss it but to seriously analyze his opinion. I don't think that his son's views should be approached with a higher level of authority than that of his father.

[Roni asked that I add the following]

Before I respond to your recent post: I must reiterate and please post this as an addendum to your head post: That the*TESHUVA* IS Rav Reuven's; but the second issue the (the explanation why there are no written haskomos to the *organization* (not that there are not *halachik teshuvas* and discussions, BECAUSE THERE CERTAINLY ARE! PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE WHAT i SAID), ARE MINE ONLY AND MAY NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THE REAL REASONING BEHIND THAT! BUT MY FEELING IS THAT THESE (AND MAYBE THERE ARE OTHERS) ARE THE REASONS WHY THEY WOULD NOT GIVE A *HASKAMAh* TO A INDIVIDUAL ORGANIZATION! (AS PROBABLY HAPPENS IN *SOME* OTHER ORGANIZATIONS ABOUT A DIFFERENT NATURE).

PLEASE DO NOT ATTRIBUTE THAT TO RAV REUVEN OR TO RAV TROPPER FOR I AM SAYING THIS ON MY OWN.

Roni wrote in response to Mekubal: ( I have made a number of corrections in to the original post)

4) the most important question: Why does he not get haskamot?

I'll give you possible answers which do not mean that they do not agree with him. a) Being that it is a novel approach. Practically speaking this method was not used especially with such an intensity therefore any respected RESPONSIBLE POSSEK would not necessarily want to to put his paper to endorse an organization if Chas Vesholom it does not succeeded to reach the hopeful goals.

b) Maybe others may follow suit and misuse the idea of the organization to take it a step further and perform these conversions without kabbalat hamitzvot. He does not want to take this public step to put his name on paper to that level.

c) and no Rabbi puts his name to sign on an organization which may in the future stumble on occasion and do something that is not correct and then people might mistake that this particular action had the approval of the Rabbi as he signed on the organization.

But on the other hand Rav Reuven partakes himself as member of the Organization. He is involved in guiding them in the Halachik Shaylos and so on. You can see the Teshuva that I posted earlier (and I"ll try BLN to scan it to Dt) as the teshuva Rav Reuven wrote to EJF where he rules on the focal question of the blog to Rav Tropper and he cites that his father the Posek HaDor HaRAv Moshe Feinstein of B"m permitted the issue in certain conditions (which is exaclty what EJF attempts to follow).

R' Tropper/Roni's farewell slurs

What follows is Roni's reaction to being banned. He shows his characteristic "careful reasoning and moderation of expression" that expresses very well the reason he is banned. Unfortunately Roni/R' Tropper think that this abusive language and bullying is the way to deal with those who disagree with their position. It also indicates a paranoid psychopathology which should be worrisome to those rabbis and rosh yeshiva who think they can form an alliance with EJF for their personal benefits - and yet avoid getting burned.

Roni wrote:

eidensohn,

publish or not, you are the same old rosho merusho, YOU SUPPORT NISSUEY TAAROVOT! YOU SUPPORT GUMA... IN YOUR COMMENTS UNDER DIFFERENT NAMES ....YOU SUPPORT THE SHEGETZ PEREH ODOM ...YOU ARE SHEGETZ ...DO NOT LIE AND SAY YOU ARE A "MODERATE"; YOU ARE NOT...YOU ARE A TROPPER HATER AND JAMIE AGUIAR LOVER...PUBLISH IT OR NOT...I COULD NOT CARE LESS YOU ARE A SHEGETZ ....STOP PRETENDING THAT YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT "PROSETYIZNG" WHOSE ONLY CONCERN IS THAT IT MIGHT RESULT IN INTERMARRIAGE...HERE YOU ARE SUPPORTING INTERMARRIAGE PUBLICLY OF ...

EJF - attracting non-Jews to proselytize - is permitted

The self (?) appointed spokesman for R' Tropper - Roni has left a new comment on "EJF - Halachic justification/ / Roni": I am making it into a post because of what it reveals about the true nature of Eternal Jewish Family. What Roni is asserting here - and I received a letter from R' Tropper to the same effect - There is nothing wrong with proselytizing as long as one does not walk up to a non-Jew and try and convert him. However putting out come-on notices on the internet, ads in the newspapers, or offering all-expenses paid vacations in swank resorts to listen to top speakers promoting conversion is allowed since the non-Jew is attracted to come and you don't go to him. Furthermore it is asserted that Rav Reuven Feinstein - the posek for Eternal Jewish Family - permits this. They also insist that this is not proselytizing but merely kiruv. (You might also notice Roni's liberal use of ad hominem arguments - something which R' Tropper vehemently protests when they come from his critics). In sum the position of Eternal Jewish Family (with the apparent backing of Rav Reuven Feinstein ) is that encouraging non-Jew (especially intermarried couples) to convert is not halachically prohibited - as long as they accept the obligation to keep all the mitzvos in the chareidi way. Thus attracting non-Jews and then pressuring them to convert is not problematic - as long as in the end they agree to keep all the mitzvos as a chareidi Jew. It is also clear from their advertisements that they don't restrict their activities to intermarried couples. I would suggest R' Tropper find a less embarrassing defender.

RAp, talking like a real am hooretz, can you start answering the question "Where in Shulchan Oruch is there aN ISSUR to encourage an intermarried person to convert",

You are unable to start any conversation. You and Dt (and the third stooge) cannot even begin to have a rational discussion over this matter, you do not know where to being so you start with the new testament of

"You are not Rav Yosef Karo writing the Shulchan Oruch and interpreting it definitively nor are you the only one who says "where does it say in the shulchan oruch this and that" like a beginner. Some things are so pushut that the shulchan oruch doesn't have to spell them out,",

like a real am hooretz....you and your colleagues shout from the top of your longues for years about this terrible tragedy and issur and after your introduction of false sources (like a real ignoramus that you are) you now state that this is "so poshut the the SO does not have to spell it out", yet the SO does not find it so poshut to spell out that you are not allowed to convert for the sake of marriage?!?!

All your questions do NOT HAVE ONE HALACHIK SOURCE, BUT YOUR NEW TESTAMENT! You are such a boor that you cannot even begin to bring some halachik points mentioned by Rav Sternbuchwhose points were STRONGLY REJECTED BY RAV MOSHE FEINSTEIN, RAV HENKIN, RAV SZ AURBACH, RAV Y KAMENETZKY AND MORE!

yOU SHOTEH OTZUM "NEW TESTAMENT" IS SOMEONE WHO CHANGES THE LAWS OF YIDDISHKEYT! AND FOR THE UMPEENTH TIME YOU CAN REPEAT LIEK THE BROKEN RECORD, BUT RT DIDN'T BEGIN TO MAKE THE MISSIONARY CONVERSIONS THAT YOUR FRIEND BOMZER MADE...YOUR KRUMMER BROKEN RECORD AND THE SOUR CHOLLENTS ARE GETTING WORSE BY THE DAY YOU DON'T QUALIFY EVEN FOR A "MEGALEH PONIM BETORAH" AS YOUR KRUMKEYT HAS GOT NOTHING WITH TORAH...

So that people do not forgeth the content: The question posed to RAP. DT and the third stooge was: Where is the source in HALACHA that it is ossur to encourage intermarried cpules to covnert???

THese fellow twist and turn but are unable to talk about the issue...

Rabbi Tropper and the halachic process

I am moving this topic from the comments of "Eternal Jewish Family rescues women captives with ...": to its own post Please reference the comments on the original posting.

Roni wrote:

REb Yid, after a simple question, you refer me to what?

The question is:

a) where does it say that Bais Din Kavua from Jupiter can force someone from MArs to appear in front of them when in MArs there is another beis din kavua?

b) And bichlal, what is going on here? This is not about a *din torah* between two parties where all the halachos of choshem mishpat apply; we are dealing with an issue of issur veheter, where one Rabbi follows his rabbonim and where does it say *anywhere* in any of the sources you wrote that "bais din kavua" has got *anything* to do with this?

You wrote a lot of mareh mekomoss which i am not privy to them. If you produce them online we will benefir to see if they relate to any of the two above questions!

So far, the source of Shulchan Oruch that is clear for me to check HAS GOT NOTHING (but nothing) to do with the two questions raised above.

I'll quote them for the benefit of the onlookers:

Then there is what is meforash in the Shulchan Aruch Ch"M 7:6.

מי שתובעין אותו לדון לפני דיין שקטן ממנו, אין הדיין יכול לכופו לילך לפניו, אלא מכנפי מאן דאיכא התם מחכימי ח ט) ומעיינים בינייהו.

a) Where does he talk a- beis din kavua versus beis din kavua?

b) and it does not apply at all to issur beheter pssokim!

Roni wrote:

Let me rephrase the whole matter of bais din kavua in three questions:

1) does Bais din Kavua of one place have a power in a different continent?

2) Especially, if at the different there is another Bais Din KAvua?

3) And most important than all questions: Where does it begin to say that "bais din kavua" has *any* relevance regarding questionspertaining to "issur veheter" (yoreh deah) as opposed to diney torah of choshen mishpat?

Any reference would be apprecited if the text can be linked!

The Choshen Mishpat 7:6 reference does not BEGIN to deal with any of the above!

Mekubal wrote

Issur V'Heter was actually a sefer that extracted from the Shulchan Aruch only the laws of Kashrut(food). Thus the laws of Kashrut found within Yorah Deah have colloquially begun to be called Issur V'Heter.

As far as the issues that a B"D has the right to rule on See Siman 1 of Choshen Mishpat. There you will find it explicitly spelled out, that marriages, divorces and conversions are within their purview.

R' Tropper is from the US, there is no B"D kavua in the US as has been stated in the iggros Moshe, Iggros Moshe Choshen Mishpat Vol iI end of siman 3).

The reference that I pointed you to in the Shulchan Aruch dealt with whether a Talmid Chochom, has the right to refuse a summons to appear before a B"D. If you had bothered to read the meforshim, especially the SM"A, you would have found that he does not even if he must travel a great distance.

What I find with you Roni is that whenever you begin to lose an argument halachically you begin to do two things. First is that you start to make personal attacks. Secondly you start an elaborate smoke and mirror show.

Sorry but I do not have digitized copies of these texts, and I have no intention to taking the time to type them in.

In the end R' Tropper is faced with a letter from a B"D telling him to cease and desist until such time as he can provide haskamot. This means two things.

1)First that his conversions are not universally accepted as any group that is part of the Eida, i.e. Satmar, Toldot Aharon, Bratslav, Belz and a few others, will see that this is geirut done in direct contradiction to the ruling of their B"D, and thus invalid.

2) It puts R' Tropper into an unenviable position of appearing to ignore a summons by a B"D. Which in itself considering that he is a Rosh Yeshiva ect. creates a Chillul HaShem and a serious issue of Marit Ayin as certainly people will come to think that if he pays no heed to the B"D neither do they need to.

Calling police - case of R' Tropper

R' Tropper's recent filing of a complaint with the police has prompted the question by RaP as to what the circumstances are for going to the police. In response Roni [R' Tropper passionate defender] posted a number of sources which were then questioned by Mekubal. This was a discussion taking place on "R' Tropper claimed his life was threatened - the o...":

I am making this a separate post and will transfer the original comments except for ones similar to the following which were censored for obvious reasons.

RONI said...

DAAT Torah, vekol hashemos shenikreu loy1
in short YOU WERE A FRAUD, ARE A FRAUD AND WILL REMAIN A FRAUD! YOU COULD CENSOR THE TRUTH BUT I NOW KNOW THAT YOU ARE THE SAME PIECE OF GARBAGE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE YOU DECRY! YOU CONSOR THE PIECE THAT IS ESSENTIAL TO THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE STORY, THE BACKGROUND TO THE STORY, THE RIGHTEOUSSNESS OF RT THE RISHOOS OF BOMZER AND ALL THEIR PARTNERS, THE PATH OF FAKE GERUT AND ALL THE LIKE, YOU DON'T WANT TO WRITE ABOUT THE PART OF THE STORY BECUASE THEY MAY SUE YOU, NU NU BUT SO THEN DO NOT WRITE ANYTHING ABOUT IT! YOU ARE THE SAME PIECE OF GARBAGE ANDLIAR AS ALL YOUR PARTNERS IN THE FAKE WORLD OF BLOGGERS THAT HATE TORAH OBSERVANT JEWS...SHOW YOU HONESTY AND TRANSPARENCY ....IT DOES NOT EXIST LIKE ALL THE OTHERS

mekubal has left a new comment on your post "R' Tropper claimed his life was threatened - the o...":

Actually Roni,

He posted both sides of the story. The first part is found here R Tropper said his life threatened. Which is pretty much R' Tropper's side of the story.

Then when Guma decided to talk to the press he posted a link to that as well. There is no censorship, simply linking to the relevant news stories. That is what is called fair and balanced reporting. Now if you want to give back story to the argument feel free, I am sure that D"T will publish it. Especially if you write it politely.

However, the truth is that you are not dealing with the issues. You are simply falling back on Ad hominim attacks. Why you feel the need to do that I am not sure. There as been no direct attacks on R' Tropper. In fact from my perspective I just want to the discuss the halachic validity of his actions.

So here are two honest questions:

1) Can you(or he) demonstrate the halachic validity of his going to a secular court with Tom Kaplan to sue for control of the Lilian Jean Kaplan Foundation? There is a very clear issur first expounded in Gittin 88B and then through the Rishonim and Achronim.

Shulchan Aruch(Choshen Mishpat 26:1): , It is forbidden to bring a case before non Jewish dayanim and their courts(meaning a permanent seat for their ministers to hear cases) even if they rule by dinei Yisrael, even if they agreed to bring the case before them, this is forbidden. All who come to judge before them, are considered to be Reshaim it is as if they blaspheme against Moshe Rabbeinu, peace be upon him.

Rama: the Beis Din may put into nidui or cherem one who brings a case before a non-Jewish court until he withdraws the case (Maharik, shoresh 187). And any one who supported a Jew bringing a case to a non-Jewish court was also put into cherem (Rivash (Siman 102). And even if he does not bring the case to be tried before the non-Jewish court but rather to use the non-Jewish court to force his Baal din to come to him for the case in Beis Din by means of their issuing a court order for this, it is appropriate to stretch him out on the pole (Mordechai, Bava Kama, perek hagozel kama). And see Siman 388. One who already brought his case before a non-Jewish court and was obligated by them and afterwards brings his claim before Dayanei Yisrael, there are those that say that we don’t relate to the matter, meaning the Dayanei Yisrael to not hear the case (Maharik, shoresh 187), and there are those that say that the case is heard (Mordechai, Bava Kama, Siman 195), unless he caused a loss to his opposing litigant before the non-Jewish judges, in which case it is no longer heard by dayanei Yisrael (the ruling of the Maharam Mirsbork). And the first line of reasoning seems to me the main one.

2)Which halachic authority gave the Ok for his latest prosecution of Guma?

Roni is having a breakdown

Despite my banning Roni, he is still compulsively sending me emails about how I am promoting intermarriage and phony conversons and am really a secret agent for all the people he has been condemning for the last year. He has even complained again to Rav Sternbuch about what an evil person I am.

Roni - I think it is best for your mental health to take a long vacation - maybe in your local mental hospital.

wishing you a refuah shleima

Israeli rabbis launch initiative to marry gay men to lesbian women

Haaretz

Rabbis from the religious Zionist community have launched an initiative to marry gay men to lesbian women - with some surprising successes.

So far, 11 marriages have been performed. Haaretz conducted an email interview with one such couple, Etti and Roni (not their real names ).

Etti and Roni, both religious, were married five years ago. Though they were honest with each other about their sexual orientations from their first meeting, to the outside world, they portray themselves as a normal heterosexual couple. Today, they have two children, and are thrilled with the results.

EJF - Halacha cafeteria style

EJF surrogate Roni keeps pounding certain points over and over in his defense of R' Tropper. 1) He claims that EJF is an improvement of the previous situation in that EJF makes sure that there is a genuine commitment to mitzvos 2) He claims that the proselytizing is a chet kal which is permitted in order to improve the situation. 3) He claims that EJF is not bringing in goyim - as the other rabbis do.

This is an example of his defense.

Roni wrote

Most importantly: Bomze'rs actions (and actually there are MANY such fake dayanim who convert for a business or at least do not require the convert to commit to observe torah and mtizvot)is one of the main reasons that EJf was created: to establish a STANDARD of conversion that up till now was neglected by the general public. The magnitude of the crime by the fake dayanim and the tragedy of bringing goyim into klal yisroel is a "Chet chamur" (very severe sin) and our Rabbis establish in our tradition, that at times it is permissible and at times commanded to make a "shet kal" to prevent and stop a chet chamur! SO, if what is needed to prevent the prospective converts not to turn to the fake rabbis but to turn to the kosher ones' and to the kosher standard is a chet kal, of seeking those sincere one to follow the right path and maknug sure that those who are not aware of the right path at least know that the wrong path does not fulfill their desire to become jewish, so be it. Our illustirous rabbis in the past centuries have ruled that one may perhaps violate some of the rabbinical prohibitions (like for instance: not to convert someone for the sake of marriage) as long as the person would commit himself to live a jewish life, ie. a life dictated by the code of jewish law!

1) As Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Chaim Ozer and many other gedolim has stated - the sincerity of most converts is questionable. Rav Moshe states pointedly that even when they say they are going to keep mitzvos - most of them are lying. Rav Chaim Ozer - who initially took a lenient view changed his mind and said that no respectable beis din should be involved in converting intermarried couples. Thus it really isn't' as critical to point out how much money was charged for the conversion - but to see how permanent and committed the geirim are. What are the statistics for EJF of how many gerim stay observant? How many of their children keep Shabbos after they leave day school - or even in day school? BTW I know of one major rav associated with EJF who has been accused by a prominent rabbi of doing conversion for the sake of money.

2) It is interesting to note that R' Tropper claims to be following the psakim of Rav Moshe Feinstein. In regards to this issue of a beis din sinning in order to convert an intermarried couple - Rav Moshe categorically prohibits it. So does Rav Eliashiv in the teshuva I published. Which one of the poskim has stated - in writing - that it is permitted to sin (chet kal) in order to convert intermarried couples. I asked R' Tropper point blank and he refused to answer. This attitude of chet kal in fact is associated with the left wing views - which have been solidly rejected by contemporary poskim. While it is true that there are rulings such as freeing a slave to make a minyan, which contemporary posek has is stated that the public need is served by EJF proselytizing operation? Loudly screaming "we insist on acceptance of mitzvos" is simple nonsense - unless you can show that the majority of converts are permanent - and stay religious even if they divorce their Jewish spouse. Otherwise you are simply bringing goyim into Klall Yisroel the same what you claim that as the so called fake rabbis - you constantly denounce. - are doing We had a EJF participant commenting on this blog a year ago - he proudly announced that he had strongly pressured his wife to convert. That is what you call sincere acceptance of mitzvos?

3) There is no evidence that R' Tropper is doing a service to klal Yisroel by taking off the stigma of intermarriage. There is no evidence that his conversions - though possibly cheaper than other rabbis - are more sincere converts. After all if you have to wine and dine a couple to get them to pay attention - it doesn't bode well for the sincerity of the conversion. There is no question that R' Bomzer has produced some genuine converts. Where is the head to head comparison to show that EJF converts are superior to his?

Bottom line 1) chet kal is rejected by Rav Moshe Feinstein 2) No evidence that EJF converts are superior to other conversion programs 3) There is no evidence that Klall Yisroel is benefiting from encouraging intermarried couples to convert instead of following Rav Eliashiv's view that they should be ostracized.

Update on EJF and Aguiar - RaP

THE REAL SCANDAL: Revenge against Gumar Aguiar and covering their backs for having sanctioned the taking of tens of millions of dollars from Guma Aguiar for years is why the ten rabbis signed this letter when they realized that Guma had dumped them/EJF to get a conversion for his wife from arch-rival Rabbi Bomzer.

Ever since poster Roni/Tropper has joined the discussions on this blog with his bloodthirsty and vitriolic attacks against anyone who dares to question Tropper/EJF he has unrelentingly made Rabbi Bomzer the source of all evil because he has performed lenient conversions.

Regardless if one agrees with either the Rabbi Tropper's or Rabbi Bomzer's prescription for doing conversions, from the outset this letter of censure against Rabbi Bomzer was presented as a fait accompli without either Rabbi Bomzer being asked to give his side of the story or any other context except that which poster Roni/Tropper and the words in the letter signed by the ten rabbis, that includes Rabbi Tropper's signature on it, to the left. [remainder of post as comment on this post here ]

E. J.F. - "Saving" the Jewish people by proselytizng

Roni said:

I though the Tzadik joined Dt and other critics of RT for his attempt to encourage non jewish wives to convert! and surprisingly Dt does not challenge the Tzadik for his support to convet intermarried couple. But it should not surprise, if opposing views combine to a common enemy to badmouth him from both sides of their mouth.

-----------------
Roni you are really obnoxious. You like R' Tropper think that my sole concern is to bad mouth R' Tropper - and that it doesn't matter what the excuse. I assume you also share his paranoid delusions that I have tricked the Bedatz into attacking R' Tropper because I am the leading defender [sic] of R' Slifkin. 

You keep repeating over and over again that R' Tropper has come to save us because he proselytizes people and demands that they keep a high standard of observance. That his program will save us because it is different than R' Bomzer etc etc. Both programs stink.You can't seem to accept that there are people who sincerely think R' Tropper's program is sick and counterproductive for the Jewish people. It isn't only me but it is the view of the Bedatz and many rabbonim - who R' Tropper has intimidated - feel this way.

All R' Tropper has to do is produce a letter from Rav Eliashiv that says that he has changed his lifelong position of opposing proselytizing intermarried couples and that he now feels it is in the best interest of the Jewish people to spend millions of dollars to pressure non-Jews to convert - with a high standard of course. Enough of the nonsense that he doesn't have to say anything because since he supports R' Tropper he supports R' Tropper. Just produce a letter. While you are at it please have Rav Reuven Feinstein write the same letter - and claim that his father would agree with it (as R' Tropper has claimed). This despite that his father clearly states in the Igros Moshe that he doesn't approve of such a program.

Please produce letters from gedolim that the Jewish communities' greatest need is to have as many intermarried couples convert and that this will raised the quality of our community.  What good is wining and dining and throwing millions at nonJews and telling them they will be accepted as Jews in order that they promise to keep the mitzvos? By the way - what happened to R' Tropper's claim of univerally accepted conversion which he has stopped promising in his solicitation letters?

There is no disagreement that you can potentially manufacturer halachic Jews with R' Tropper's approach - but why do we need converts who are more concerned with lust and desire of man or woman than love of G-d.

EJF - The issue is lack of transparency

Roni has left a new comment on your post "EJF - Proselytizing Advertisement":

DT: "I don't think you have the context quite right. Nobody is saying that these or other involved rabbis are doing thing which they think violate their principles for the sake of money".

So why that don't you challenge the publicitities publicity where he actually insinuates an at times states so explicitly?

DT: No one is going to a rosh yeshiva and saying - if you do will violate halacha I will give you big bucks. The issue is much more subtle. I would suggest you search through this blog for the Achiezer 26 and Achiezer 28 - twenty years separated these two statements".

Exactly! look for those responsa and you will see why there was and is a need to create an organization like EJF for there were/are numerous charlatans (some of them hailed in this blogs as good conversion rabbis) who made hundreds and maybe thousands (collectively) of fake conversions where there was no kabbalat hamitzvot.

Look, even the critics of EJF, or even good rabbis who do not presently associate with the EJf (like HaRav H. Shechter) felt the need and importance for such an organization and part of his alignment with that idea was the chaotic state of conversions where they converted without any serious intention to keep Torah an mitzvot and did not show one iota that they would want change their lifestyle.
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Roni you have raised some solid issues 1) there is a need for improvement in the geirus issue - perhaps even stopping it as the Achiezer stated. Rav Moshe Feinstein stated that he himself is not involved because the success rate is so low. 2) How could all these important rabbis be involved in an organization if it weren't 100% kosher 3) There are some major rabbinical figures who were associated with EJF and have dropped out - such as Rav H. Shechter, Rav Dovid Feinstein and Rav Eisenstein and perhaps Rav Eliashiv himself. 4) The Bedatz issued a condemnation of the EJF after failing to receive any explanation from Rabbi Tropper for his proselytizing activities.

This latter question is the crux of our problem. I contacted EJF with the simple question - you claim to base yourself on the views of Rav Moshe Feinstein - what did he say because it is clearly not in the Igros Moshe. Rabbi Tropper himself responded and we went round and round - and he did not answer the question.

He refused to answer a rather elementary question - what is your justification from Rav Moshe Feinstein or Rav Eliashiv to spend millions of dollars on conventions to convince intermarried couples to convert? He said - what is the issur? The basic rule is who ever changes has the burden of proof. We have a very long history of rejecting proselytization.

In addition he felt it necessary to slander me in a correspondence with someone I referred to him regarding a geirus problem.

He insulted Rav Sternbuch in a letter he sent him regarding the geirus issue - and despite R' Tropper's promise to me that he would send an apology - he never did.

Theoretically my question could have been answered in 25 words or less. Theoretically there should be a kuntres describing the goals, techniques and halachic justification - so that EJF can be openly discussed by poskim. Rabbi Tropper told me there had been a manual in the beginning but it was discontinued because it wasn't clear. Why hasn't a new manual be issued?

Bottom line when someone acts suspiciously and dodges elementary questions, throws big bucks around in problemtaic activities as well as hands out big bucks to big rabbis for attending his program - and feels the necessity of insulting others such as Rav Sternbuch and the Modern Orthodox - that person loses his chezkas kashrus.

If R' Tropper is what you think he is - he could have cleared this issue up in five minutes - a year ago. I myself have repeatedly asked him to do just that. Maybe if he is your good friend you will give him this post - since he claims not to be involved with the internet - and maybe you can convince him to be more transparent and less "omnipotent fearless leader".

EJF - RaP's recapitulation

RaP responds to Roni's questions from a previous "EJF - Proselytizing Advertisement":
===============================
To Roni who said... "It is overwhelming clear that you on a rampage campaign against R. Tropper"

RaP: Nope, I am not on a "rampage" and you are mistaking and confusing a serious interest in this subject and thorough analysis and misnaming it a "rampage" simply because you don't like the concluions. Stop calling names and acting "frum" and holier-than-thou and debate the points in detail, if you can.

Furthermore, if you had even bothered to read some of my other posts you will see that I have defended Rabbi Tropper many times right here on this very blog, and in depth, trying to fathom and explain where he is coming from on kiruv and geirus issues and I even took Rabbi Tropper's hashkafic point of view against the owner of this blog and some of his serious supporters in the complex and sad Rabbi Slifkin saga (but I do not support Rabbi Tropper's alleged methods in slandering Rabbi Slifkin against other gedolim.)

If you don't believe me, please see the following five posts on this blog for yourself:

1) My post at "Rabbi Tropper & Prague - what happened?" at where I tried to explain Rabbi Tropper's complex position that became a new post at:

2) "R' Tropper - Kiruv vs Geirus/ RaP's analysis" at See my comments there that which shows my deepest sympathies with Rabbi Tropper's present struggles:

"Rabbi Tropper is from those kiruv workers (his main stock in trade) who works using the hard-sell method and he is very good at what he does in kiruv and is famous for his heady, strong-willed, blusterry speeches meant to bowl over his listeners, and yes he can be very intimidating and insulting to his listeners who may not share his moods. (Guess what: This is actually good kiruv believe it or not, because it is prone to induce a mind-shift as a form of "shock therapy" in his listeners opening them up to new Torah ideas they had never heard before), although he can also take it slow and gentle when he works with very diverse audiences who he knows will not go for his shock tactics. And yes, he generally holds that those who become his disci[les must adhere to quick adherence to his utterances and rules. Rabbi Tropper's kiruv methods as such are not an issue in this dialogue, nor do I think that his role in getting Rabbi Slifkin's books off the frum radar screen has anything to do with the current set of "Kiruv vs Geirus" issues that are riling Rabbi Tropper and confusing those who come face to face with him today because right now the man is a walking dichotomy. A sort of split personality, not fully conscious of the depth of his inner turmoil and extent of the self-contradiction he is spilling wherever he goes nowadays, as his kiruv side battles and tries to reconcile itself with the issues of geirus he has now immersed himself in for better or worse, and he is in over his head this time. While Rabbi tropper is agadol in the kiruv world, he is a zero in the world of dayanim and batei din. And yes, he is a big talmid chochme, but most rosh yeshivas (which he also claims to be of Kol Yaakov Yeshiva) are not involved in shimush lema'aseh and they are not dayanim. You do not go to a rosh yeshiva if you want to get divorced or are looking for a geirus. Rosh yeshivas are generally never poskim except for what goes on inside their yeshivas, and unlike a kiruv worker who can and MUST walk all over the range looking for people to mekarev, a dayan on the other hand, MUST contain himself and restrict himself to a very narrow venue, the Bais Din and its confines where he sits in judgment of cases and of others. In short, how to reconcile Kiruv ("drawing people close") and Richuk ("distancing" people)? How to reconcile the need to be a sweet Kiruv Worker (who must always be winning JEWISH friends and influencing people to eventually become/morph into being Haredi/Yeshivish) and on the other hand with a conflicting task, the enforcing the rules and dictates of Batei Din in regard to conversions that requires, per force, the distancing and pushing away of people, certianly gentiles and if need be even the Jews attached to those gentiles."

3) "R' Slifkin - context of ban /Ra" at where I even say:

"You know, this is where you have to admire Rabbi Tropper's kiruv derech that at least he does not lose himself or his students on all this fake double-talk about having some sort of allegiance to science and secular knowledge when as he rightly holds, Torah is not a substance that can be mixed or diluted with anything else to prove its powers and validity" and defending him "It's now le'acaher hama'aseh, and to get back to the point, Rabbi Tropper, at the end of the day is just a cog in what turned out to be pretty hefty Haredi machine. What can you do, that is just the way it goes sometimes."

4) "Kiruv I - The end of kiruv as we know it!" at l where I state that

"Rabbi Leib Tropper went in the other direction, feeling that both Ohr Somaych and Aish HaTorah had lost sight of their main mandate of basing everying ONLY on intense Gemora learning and rapid paced transformation to being a Ben Torah (not a bad goal but not as attractive to the nasses as Aish HaTorah's appeal, as is evident.)...Rabbi Tropper's Kol Yaakov yeshiva also in Monsey that stresses only the learning element, even though it does have an outrecah "Horizons" program...Rabbi Tropper is a venturer because with his EJF program to welcome in by doing outreach the non-Jewish spouses of interfaith couples under "strict" Beth Din auspices (actually fueling the flames of the process, as it were) he is doing a classical juggling act, that on the one hand he is trying to preempt and ward off attacks from the Haredi world he admires and respects and needs but at the the same time he is caving in to the interfaith flood at the gate and in this he is no different to ALL other Kiruv workers out there today trying to cope with the flood tide of interfaith students (meaning students from mixed marriages or intermarrieds themseleves, or those with non-Halachic conversions), and instead of calling a spade a spade and seeing the writing on the wall, that THE AGE OF KIRUV AS WE KNOW IT IS OVER..."And much of the above became the new post at:

5) "Kiruv II - Paradigm change for outreach workers" at

So at this time, unless you can acknowledge otherwise, it is obvious that you have not been reading those posts but just come here and make a few belly-aching comments simply because you don't like a few things you hear here.

"and the more you attack every single person associated with him an even attack Rav REuven Feinstein shows your even more your irrational campaign."

RaP: Can you point to the alleged "irrationality" you IMAGINE? Is the owner of this blog Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn "irrational", who posted I, II and and many other posts like this and who posts his and others' comments after serious review of each comment and who opposes the EJF effort and Rabbi Tropper's methods? Is Rav Moshe Shternbuch "irrational" for opposing efforts, see "Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Authorized Translation" and "Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Kiruv for non-Jews and "Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad" like those of Rabbi Tropper and the EJF? Is the entire BADATZ of the powerful Eidah HaChareidis "irrational" (are Horav Meir Brandsorfer, Horav Moshe Sternbuch, Horav Naftoli Frenkal, Horav Avrohom Yitzchok Ulman, Horav Yakov Mendel Yorovitch, Horav Yehoushua Rosenberg ALL "irrational" too for signing it?) see "Bedatz letter regarding conversion" and of taking the extreme measure of openly, see "Bedatz letter regarding conversion" and rebuking and warning dayanim and batei din all over the world who were Recipients of its official warning letters and giving Publicicty to it, authorising its dissemination online through this very blog by Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn. It has been Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn who has asked for written Halachik clarifications from Rabbi Tropper and EJF and none has been forthcoming, so take it up with him if you think he and others being "irrational" for asking for a written reason al pi din and for his efforts EJF tried to smear him, see "EJF smear campaign"

"While I unerstan the reservations against R. Tropper an his plans,"

RaP: You do? Like what? This may be the seed of some fruitful discussions perhaps, don't you think? instead of hiding behind smokescreens and blaming others of being "irrational" when you have no good RATIONAL and LOGICAL and FACTUAL arguments or proofs of your own to produce, so far.

"your voice of opposition shows that there is more at stake for his critics that are far from "leshem shamayim."

RaP: You are wrong and Rabbi Tropper has yet to prove that everything he does is "leshem shamayim" and not coming from his notorious over-sized ego that brooks no opposition and who yells at anyone who dares oppose him.

Rabbi Tropper does not need "defenders" that make him look like he is the "poor little victim" of something when he is not.

Rabbi Tropper and Dr. Tom Kaplan sat down and decided on their own on a new scheme, that went far beyond in a quantum leap from Rabbi Tropper's world of kiruv and his Baal teshuva Kol Yaakov Yeshiva (which he ran very well) and would now branch into the world of batei din and geirus (based on many reasons that I have discussed in my other posts) that they called "EJF" and how to sell it to rabbonim and to the frum world and of course to the world of gentiles who were married or hitched to Jews and who would now be targeted for being inspired to get "real" conversions at Batei Din, and how to implement all this as if this was a "product" like Coca Cola that was being launched based on a business plan with lots of financing and professionalism behind it. So let's get real please and not talk like babies.

"With regards to Rabbi Bomzer (which i can clearly see that what bothers you is that R. Tropper an many Rabbonim that participate in EJF attack the fake an phony conversions of people like R. H Bomzer),"

RaP: Quite honestly, nobody on this blog could give a hoot about Rabbi Bomzer because if you had read all the posts seriously you will see that most posters here are against ANY kind of easy conversions no matter from who, be it Rabbi Bomzer, Chabad, kiruv organizations and workers, the RCA, the Israeli Rabbanut and now including Rabbi Tropper and his EJF. So cut out the nonsense because noone on this blog cares about or has anything to do with Rabbi Bomzer.

"he is known in many circles for his false conversions where he converts people 1) knowing ahead of time that they are not interested to keep torah and mitzvot (not only that they have lapses in the future); do not keep shabbat, kashrut, taharat ha mishpacha from the very outset. 3) Actually the rabbanut over ten years ago has written that his conversion needs bedikah! for his reputation is actually very well known, an most importantly his fees are also known!"

RaP: All this is interesting, but not to the point and only proves that YOU want to now smear Rabbi Bomzer. If you want to get into these kind of discussions, then you will discover that most situations involving geirus involve matters of self-interest somewhere along the line. It was Rabbi Tropper's connection with Tom Kaplan whose sister married to a man of Hispanic ancestry (Otto Aguiar) and who needed a conversion for himself and son ("Guma Kaplan Aguiar is the son of Ellen Kaplan.") that was a huge factor dragging Rabbi Tropper into this whole EJF adventure, see "Who is behind Eternal Jewish Family?" and "Is Eternal Jewish Family the center of the universe?" It may be rabbis who need money and charge fees, or interfaith couples who lie about their true intentions just to fool the dayanim, entire rabbinates and batei din that are not respected and are negated by other batei din, like happeened to Rabbi Drukman at the hands of Rav sherman and the High Court of the Rabbanut and Rabbi Tropper at the hands of the Bais Din of the Eidah Hachareidis for attempts at working to facilitate mass conversions. So while talking about RabbI bomezer may be true and interesting it is not much different to all the other problems that will arise for rabbis in the geirus business. So again, quit harping about Rabbi Bomzer, because he is already history, noone here really cares about him, and the focus is now on Rabbi Troppe and EJF and it would be apprecaited if you can expa=lain to us what Rabbi Tropper and EJF are doing that is so great that in the meantime so many people are having genuine Halachic issues with it.

"Continue to defend him and other similar rabbis"

RaP: Noone is defedning anyone here if you haven't noticed. This is a forum for discussion and you are welcome to join it instead of standing on the sidelines making silly comments.

"an attack vehemently Rav Reuven Feinstein and others with such disparagment and everyone will see clearly publicity's agenda!"

RaP: Again you fail to understand that this is a serious matter that is under discussion and just by saying that Rabbi Reuven feinstein like Rabbi tropper and wishes him well, while on this blog Rabbi Tropper has been asked dozens of times to produce WRITTEN haskomas from Rav Reuven or Rav Dovid Feinstein and he still does not, must mean that RabbI tropper does not have a written haskoma to do outreach to gentiles in order to get them to convert and marry Jewish spouses. This is no different to learning any sugya where the subject is open and we must look for answers and if no official answers are given it is possible to speculate for motives that require greater clarity. Can you answer this question please: Does or has Rav Reuven shlit"a or Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit"a or any institutions they head ever received financial backing and donations from Dr. Tom Kaplan and one his family or any businesses and foundations they head? Let's get real with some real questions instead of your bobba-maises.

"Rabbi Bomzer is not unique and he can't be blamed for every conversion that went off the rails."

RaP: Right, and Rabbi Tropper is not unique and he cannot be blamed for every person he once mekareved and then went off the rails. And just like I would not blame Rabbi Tropper for his kiruv failures noone can blame any serious Orthodox rabbi who is a dayan for conversions when converts go off the rails because just like SOME Baalei teshuva fail in the end to stay frum, many geirim in the end fail in the end to stick to their commitments to be truly Halachically Jewish. And guess what, every religious Bar Mitzva boy starts out good but by the time his life is over many Jews are off the derech, and it is not always the fathers' and mothers' who must be blamed. But while all that is intersting, this is not what this discussion is about, which is the determination of Rabbi Tropper and RJF to pursue mass conversions for goyim, which even for the best and frummest of reasons, MUST result in a huge catatsrophe for Klal Yisroel, and per force mass Chillul hashem in its wake, and he should be convinced to stop now at all costs, before his "solutions" and "cures" become worse than the diseases and plagues of assimilation and intermarriage.

Guma Aguiar - RaP's commentary

Recipients and Publicity comment to post "Guma Aguiar of EJF - raised as Christian":

Guma Aguiar of EJF & Nefesh BeNefesh controversy: False messiah or hero?

Clashing media depictions from America and Israel about Guma Aguiar's philanthropy and his agenda

First off, thank you for the good wishes from poster Roni/Tropper and his willingness to debate and be frank about many issues relating the still unfolding EJF-Guma Aguiar saga and his wife Jamie with the doubtful conversion from Rabbi Bomzer and the Chabad rabbi. We have all learned a lot and benefited from Roni's/Tropper's seemingly obvious first-hand knowledge about the Guma-EJF-Jamie-Tropper situation.

But it is now time to move on, not be mired and sit with the old slogans and accusations and the old points that have been repeated a hundred times by now. We need to take stock and move on because from the very bosom and heart of EJF, its still official Co-Chairman, has arisen one named Guma Aguiar who until a few days ago was only an elusive mysterious name and person in the background of the EJF story and controversy, but who now, with his "Aliyah" to Israel and having given a huge donation of a few million dollars to the Nefesh BeNefesh organization (that has support from Christian Evangelicals in America), hyped by the ultra-Zionistic Arutz Sheva media outlet, see Oil Tycoon Cashes In on Spiritual Dividends in Jerusalem (01/28/09) and Aguiar: We've Got to Climb the Ladder(01/29/09), and having declared an agenda of "starting" with bringing 100,000 new "olim" of all stripes to Israel, all this must be noted and analysed. [...]

[Rest of post is in comments section "Guma Aguiar of EJF - raised as Christian":]

Rav Reuven Feinstein: Kiruv and intermarriage

Rav Chaim Ozer Grodinski(Achiezer 3:28): Concerning the common practice of converting women who are married to Jews - according to the straight halacha it is not corrrect to convert them. That is because they are converting for the sake of marriage. Therefore even after marriage she is prohibited to him as is clear from the Rashba (#1205). While previously I had written to be lenient in these cases and I based myself on the Rambam (Pe’er HaDor 132) and Rav Shlomo Kluger also paskened leniently in an actual case. Nevertheless the fact is that there is not genuine acceptance of mitzvos in these cases. It is quite obvious that their hearts are not with the Jewish people since they do not observe Shabbos or niddah and they eat unkosher food as I wrote in the previous letter. This problem has already been noted by by the Beis Yitzchok who concluded that a proper beis din would not be involved in this. And regarding the issue of governing the non‑Jewish children…However the writer is correct that a good beis din should not be involved in this type of conversion. Nevertheless I don’t see that it is proper that the rabbis of the generation should make an open protest against conversion. That is because in the eyes of the masses it would be viewed as a chilul HaShem to prevent the women to convert and in particular their children since according to the straight halacha it is possible to convert them.

Mekubal's translation/analysis of Rav Eliashiv's teshuva (3:140)cited below by Rav Reuven Feinstein

Roni,

First a translation italics are my own comments in the translation:

From all of this it seems obviously we are missing parts already please provide those Roni that a mixed marriage, by means of this the non-Jewish spouse takes part literally they join themselves to or with in shiurim there is a good probability that it will enter into their hear to convert, and by means of this it causes the Jewish man or woman to be saved to return in repentance, there is to see in this b'diavad circumstance that there is to take hold of the understanding that it is permitted to teach Torah to a Goy if his mind is to convert. But in a situation that that this reason is not relevant, there is no place for a heter, this is Ossur.

Let us enumerate the conditions of the above heter:
1) Intermarriage 2) The Non-Jew seeks out and joins shiurim 3) It is permitted to allow them to take part b'diavad 4) Since there is a heter to teach torah to a non-Jew who is converting we can extend that to this case.

To be clear, R' Eliashiv makes a chumra(that one should not teach a person in the the process of Geirut Torah), as this opposes what is written in the Sh"A, but that is OK one can be Chumradik.

Then he removes his own Chumra in the case of an intermarried couple. If the non-Jewish spouse seeks out Jewish learning. His reason for this is that they may be convinced to convert, and thus in a round about way cause the Teshuva of their Jewish spouse.

What this leaves out is any mention of encouraging. Nowhere does R' Elishiv say לאמץ להתגייר he simply says that by them deciding to take part in Jewish learning there is a good chance that they will decide to convert, and we should not stop them.

To sum up. You brought an incomplete Teshuva, and presumably only the part that you thought supported your opinion. Examination of the language and grammar shows that this clearly does not support your position of actively seeking out or encouraging conversion. This is a heter to allow non-Jews in intermarriages who wander into shiurim, to sit those shiurim, that's all.

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Rav Eliashiv's view on kiruv to intermarried couples as reported by Rav Efrati

==================================
Rav Reuven Feinstein

EJF - Do rabbis know it converts mixed couples?

Aaron commented to "EJF - attracting non-Jews to proselytize - is permitted...":

Roni/R Tropper; I want to ask you , can you tell me with the full truth ,that all the Rabonim associated with the EJF including the beautiful dais that was shown at the confrence last week,are aware that the purpose of EJF is to be megayer these goyim in an intermarried couple? I have strong reason to beleive that they are being told one thing and the EJF is doing something else?

Michal bas Avraham commented to "EJF - attracting non-Jews to proselytize - is permitted...":

Aharon,
You are right they are not being told that the organization is there to convert intermarrieds. They are being told that they are trying to raise the standards of conversion. Last Shabbos, I was at someone's house and the husband told me three men in his kollel took some course to be on their baytai din. This is what they were told. Also, the RCA standards are actually higher. They know who is on their baytai din, real rabbis who have done conversions but, not the one before them. Whereas now we see about EJF.

Roni,
The EJF doesn't provide mentoring. They make you bring them your shul rabbi. They ask him to find you a mentor. They also ask him to "watch your attendance in shul." This is ridiculous. Anyone can go to shul and go home to watch TV. However, I've heard this from rabbis. They say, you have to live in my area so I can make sure you go to shul every week. Also, what about Brooklyn? In Brooklyn, a woman who goes to shul is like a prostitute that's how UNacceptable it is to go to shul.

I have blogged about EJF and I will do it again. They are this organization that just formed itself and run around with their ego telling everyone they better and have higher standards. Actually, they don't.

EJF invites 1/3 of world to convert /RaP&Roni

Recipients and Publicity comment to "EJF - offers enlightenment to non-Jews":

It's not just "Art Gib" because as the article tells the readers at its end: "About the Author :- Eternal Jewish Family offers information on Jewish conversion. Art Gib is a freelance writer." This Mr. Art Gib has been writing a lot of upbeat GLIB PR articles in behalf of EJF lately, as if he was promoting a new yummy super-delicious brand of Hagen-Daz ice-cream. He is more than a "freelancer" with all his stuff popping up online it surely seems that he is a well-paid and highly skilled writer on the EJF payroll (just that "freelancer" sounds a lot nicer to the gullible.)

This one takes the cake (or is it a super-dooper scoop of ice-cream that widens the eyes): "While nearly one third of the population of the world is considered Jewish or has Jewish ancestry" (SAY WHAT???) and that to his come on to the gentiles: "If you've always had questions or curiosities, or are considering conversion and want to know more, most of the time all you have to do is ask" (NOT PROSELYTIZING, RIGHT???) with the assurance that: "You'll find that anyone practicing the faith will be more than happy to answer your questions and steer you down the path to spiritual enlightenment" (LIKE WHO, WOULDN'T BE EJF WOULD IT ???)

So now EJF is inviting "nearly one third of the population of the world" (oh, they can also deny it by saying it was "Mr Gib" the shmo who wrote it) that he and EJF "consider" to be "Jewish" to join up and become Jewish with ultra-holier-than-thou conversions managed by EJF (and this, after accusing Bomzer and Rabbi Drukman of going overboard), with Rabbi Tropper running a "yeshiva" and educational programs for ove TWO BILLION people/"Jews" (the world's population is about 6 and half billion at present), that's greater than any false messianic movement in world history, with Rabbi Tropper at its epicenter as the "ultimate leader of all the halachic converts" -- you know, that should be a lot of fun (for Rabbi Tropper and his partner Tom Kaplan at least, who will have then materialized their delusional megalomaniacal dream!

No wonder Rabbi Eisenstein has walked away from Tropper and EJF because it is inconceivable that anyone in the Torah world wishes to lure over TWO BILLION gentiles into Torah true Judaism under the "auspices" of EJF.

Some things are best left for Eliyahu Hanovi and the true Mashiach to accomplish, but obviously the Tropper-Kaplan duo don't think so. Get ready for the fireworks on this one!

Roni comment to RaP's comment to post "EJF - offers enlightenment to non-Jews":

"that he and EJF "consider" to be "Jewish" to join up and become Jewish with ultra-holier-than-thou conversions managed by EJF (and this, after accusing Bomzer and Rabbi Drukman of going overboard)".

After all your treatises (while I agree that this article is misleading -even if he is not seeking converts; just making accessible for someone to ask about it- ) he does NOT bring goyim into klal yisroel; his organization does not engage in converting not intermarried couples. we do NOT have the crime of bringing goyim into klal yisroel and destroying kedushat yisroel!

Whereas RHB and some others, seek fake converts by their representatives, and deceive the Jewish people and the prospective covnerts by "converting" falsely: for without kabbalat hamitzvot the conversions is NULL AND VOID! (besides that the conversion may be invalidated due to exorbitant fees!). So ?RHB's converts are goyim and he brings goyim into klal yisroel (and at the same time fostering intermarriage) when he converts a girlfriend who wants to marry a Jew, and makes mockery of the conversion process and meaning itself by converting a shikssah so that her boss can marry her and abandon her husband and children.

EJF - higher standards isn't enough

Racheli wrote:

Roni said...

It is indeed something that is really bothersome. as you write about those who are less committed. Actually R' Tropper's approach attempts to remedy that, by raising the standards of commitment of the convert. This is the reason why many Rabbis (like Rav Reuven Feinstein or Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky support his efforts).In such cases, one can understand that they earn to some degree respect, as (those who) transform their lives with some difficulty.

It happens that the Beis Din which I converted through is a well respected, accepted Beis Din with very high standards (Bli Ayin Hara). However, creating higher standards does not necessarily bear a stronger connection, commitment, and love of Torah within the individual conversion candidate.

Those feelings and commitments are something which exist in the person or do not, can be roused or can’t be – but in my opinion they cannot be forced upon the person or implanted in them. You could say that higher standards weed-out people who are less committed and serious, who are lacking these internal convictions, and perhaps this is true in some cases. However, if someone has an ulterior motive that is strong enough, it also could push them through a rigorous geirus process.

I do not believe (at least from what I have witnessed from the people I have seen go through conversions) that higher standards make for a better Ger. There is a lot of change involved in a conversion. It is not as simple as learning how to keep Shabbos and kashrus…. A Ger needs to completely resocialize themself to a different culture and lifestyle. You don’t learn all the social norms and nuances which make the Jewish people as a community so unique and JEWISH by taking a shiur on Kashrus.

Conversion should be viewed as a holistic change for the person. It is not just a change in halachic status from non-Jew to Jew; from not keeping Shabbos, to keeping Shabbos. In my opinion it takes a high commitment and drive for an individual to properly integrate and join the Jewish people successfully, and holistically.

All I am trying to say is that higher standards, although necessary, should not be viewed as some sort of panacea for preventing poorly integrated, insincere or wayward converts. It’s not a year or two year course in Orthodox Judaism that create well integrated, committed Jews; it’s an internal conviction and drive toward living a life dedicated toward Avodas Hashem which continues to drive that individual long past the geirus process is finished.

Rav Reuven Feinstein: Kiruv and mixed couples

I was sent a recent recording of Rav Reuven Feinstein,shlita regarding kiruv and mixed couples. He explicitly says that it is prohibited to advertise and promote seminars to attract mixed couples to come with the hope that they will eventually convert. He says that is only permitted to strengthen those couples that come on their own with a genuine interest to learn more about Judaism and without an awareness that mixed marriages are prohibited. Only such couples who are interested lshem shamayim are to be converted while those who know that intermarriage is wrong are to be rejected. He says it is not only his view but it is one Rav Eliashiv, shlita, expressed when they asked him what was permitted. Rav Reuven's view is the one I have long defended as normative against R' Tropper and his representative Roni - while they defended the view which Rav Reuven explicity rejects on this recording. Below is an example of EJF's advertisement for attracting mixed couples to a seminar - exactly that which Rav Reuven says on this recording is clearly prohibited.

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