R' Tropper/Roni's farewell slurs

What follows is Roni's reaction to being banned. He shows his characteristic "careful reasoning and moderation of expression" that expresses very well the reason he is banned. Unfortunately Roni/R' Tropper think that this abusive language and bullying is the way to deal with those who disagree with their position. It also indicates a paranoid psychopathology which should be worrisome to those rabbis and rosh yeshiva who think they can form an alliance with EJF for their personal benefits - and yet avoid getting burned.

Roni wrote:

eidensohn,

publish or not, you are the same old rosho merusho, YOU SUPPORT NISSUEY TAAROVOT! YOU SUPPORT GUMA... IN YOUR COMMENTS UNDER DIFFERENT NAMES ....YOU SUPPORT THE SHEGETZ PEREH ODOM ...YOU ARE SHEGETZ ...DO NOT LIE AND SAY YOU ARE A "MODERATE"; YOU ARE NOT...YOU ARE A TROPPER HATER AND JAMIE AGUIAR LOVER...PUBLISH IT OR NOT...I COULD NOT CARE LESS YOU ARE A SHEGETZ ....STOP PRETENDING THAT YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT "PROSETYIZNG" WHOSE ONLY CONCERN IS THAT IT MIGHT RESULT IN INTERMARRIAGE...HERE YOU ARE SUPPORTING INTERMARRIAGE PUBLICLY OF ...

Tropper's continued smear campaign

I recently reported a blatant lie about me that appeared on R' Tropper's Blog here

"According to a trusted source, Rav Sternbuch, shlit”a was asked if he approves of the blog which is critical of EJF. His response was negative."

The original comment was found here. I protested this outright lie here Even Roni - Tropper's defender on this Blog - called up Rav Sternbuch and was told that the statement was not true. The comment has since mysteriously disappeared from Tropper's blog - but there was no acknowledgment that it was a lie or an apology for the slander. Tropper obviously can't claim that no one knew he was referring to me - because everyone knows that I am the only one who has a close association with Rav Sternbuch who opposes EJF and has a blog dealing with EJF. The reason that I am bringing up this issue again is because Tropper and his associates have continued to spread this lie. In fact a well known figure in kiruv recently criticized me for going against Rav Sternbuch's wishes by attacking Tropper. I am well aware that this slander will backfire against Tropper because people will eventually find out that it is not true. However there is an elementary requirement of derech eretz that even if Tropper genuinely thought what he wrote was true - he is required to publicly apologize once he found it was not true. He has not apologized for this or for the absurd claim that I am motivated to criticize him entirely because I am the chief supporter of R' Slifkin.

Berachos (31b): R. Eleazar said: From this we learn that one who is suspected wrongfully must clear himself. Count not thy handmaid for a daughter of Belial; a man who says the Tefillah when drunk is like one who serves idols. It is written here, Count not thy handmaid for a daughter of Belial, and it is written elsewhere, Certain sons of Belial have gone forth from the midst of thee. Just as there the term is used in connection with idolatry, so here. Then Eli answered and said, Go in Peace. R. Eleazar said: From this we learn that one who suspects his neighbour of a fault which he has not committed must beg his pardon; nay more, he must bless him, as it says, And the God of Israel grant thy petition

E. J.F. - "Saving" the Jewish people by proselytizng

Roni said:

I though the Tzadik joined Dt and other critics of RT for his attempt to encourage non jewish wives to convert! and surprisingly Dt does not challenge the Tzadik for his support to convet intermarried couple. But it should not surprise, if opposing views combine to a common enemy to badmouth him from both sides of their mouth.

-----------------
Roni you are really obnoxious. You like R' Tropper think that my sole concern is to bad mouth R' Tropper - and that it doesn't matter what the excuse. I assume you also share his paranoid delusions that I have tricked the Bedatz into attacking R' Tropper because I am the leading defender [sic] of R' Slifkin. 

You keep repeating over and over again that R' Tropper has come to save us because he proselytizes people and demands that they keep a high standard of observance. That his program will save us because it is different than R' Bomzer etc etc. Both programs stink.You can't seem to accept that there are people who sincerely think R' Tropper's program is sick and counterproductive for the Jewish people. It isn't only me but it is the view of the Bedatz and many rabbonim - who R' Tropper has intimidated - feel this way.

All R' Tropper has to do is produce a letter from Rav Eliashiv that says that he has changed his lifelong position of opposing proselytizing intermarried couples and that he now feels it is in the best interest of the Jewish people to spend millions of dollars to pressure non-Jews to convert - with a high standard of course. Enough of the nonsense that he doesn't have to say anything because since he supports R' Tropper he supports R' Tropper. Just produce a letter. While you are at it please have Rav Reuven Feinstein write the same letter - and claim that his father would agree with it (as R' Tropper has claimed). This despite that his father clearly states in the Igros Moshe that he doesn't approve of such a program.

Please produce letters from gedolim that the Jewish communities' greatest need is to have as many intermarried couples convert and that this will raised the quality of our community.  What good is wining and dining and throwing millions at nonJews and telling them they will be accepted as Jews in order that they promise to keep the mitzvos? By the way - what happened to R' Tropper's claim of univerally accepted conversion which he has stopped promising in his solicitation letters?

There is no disagreement that you can potentially manufacturer halachic Jews with R' Tropper's approach - but why do we need converts who are more concerned with lust and desire of man or woman than love of G-d.

Tropper's former defender has regrets

RONI has left a new comment on your post "Reb Reuven - please!":

Rav Daniel Eidensohn Shlita

At it stands now (and I do not think that the situation will change relating to this angle) , YOU (RAV DANIEL EIDENSOHN ARE THE TZADIK and so some others (except one and the gvir he covers up and the people aligned with that gvir) and I OWE YOU AN APOLOGY IN THE SIZE OF AN ELEPHANT!

And I want to say to you now, Bekitzur:

ON THIS ISSUE YOU ARE A TZADIK, I WAS A RASHA, I NEED TO DO TESHUVA ON THIS ISSUE, OF SHAMING YOU AND CALLING YOU NAMES AND MORE WILL BE FORTHCOMING AFTER CLEAR INFORMATION IS GIVEN. I HOPE YOU WILL ALLOW MY WORDS TO STAND. I HOPE YOU FEEL THAT I FEEL REAL REMORSE AND PAINED OVER THE FACT THAT I MALIGNED YOU NUMEROUS TIMES OVER AN ISSUE THAT YOU WERE RIGHT.

THERE ARE MORE THAT HAVE WHAT TO SAY AND I WANT TO SAY, AS THE APOLOGY AND AS THE EXPLANATION THAT YOU WERE IN SOME CENTRAL ISSUES.

(I MUST STATE FROM THE OUTSET, THAT NOTHING ABOUT THE OTHER RABBI, THE OTHER GVIR, THOSE WHO LECKED HIM THEN, AND NOW AND MILK HIM AND EVERYTHING THAT THAT PART REPRESENTS IS *NOT* CHANGED. SOME LESSONS MUST BE TAKEN FROM THAT AS A WELL.

BUT THE LESSON FROM ADONI RABBI UMORI RAV EIDENSOHN IN THE APST THAT AS TO THE PRESENT IT IS A "RED HERRING" HE IS 1000% RIGHT).

LEIB TROPPER: I MUST SAY TO YOU, BEKITZUR NOW, THAT YOU WERE A TERRIBLE RASHA ON THIS ISSUE, THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS THAT HAPPENED HERE THAT EE EFSHAR LEPORTOM. I WOULD BE WRITING THEM, MORE BEARICHUS LATER IF THE RABBI OF THIS BLOG KINDLY PERMITS IT AND AFTER WE HAVE MORE INFO.

YOU HAVE ONE AND ONLY OPTION (PLEASE FORGET ABOUT CALLING ME; IT IS USELESS AND A WASTE OF TIME; YOU MUST NOT CONVINCE ME ABOUT YOUR TRUTH), THAT YOU MAKE YOUR CASE TO THE *PUBLIC* THROUGH A LAWYER TO PROVE THAT YOUR IS THE TRUTH AND THAT WHAT APPEARS ON THE TAPE (THAT IS FAR FAR FAR BEYOND "KOLOH DELOY PASSIK" AND BEYOND "UMDENAH DMUCHACH" OF KIUR AND WORSE AND SELLOUT OF JUDAISM (GERUT_) FOR ZNUSS, IS THE REAL ESSNAN ZONAH) IS FALSE.

OTHERWISE, DO US ALL FAVOR AND DO SOMETHING SIMILAR TO

חזרת טבח שהיה בודק לעצמו ומוכר ויצא טריפה מתחת ידו, {פד} שילבש שחורים ויתכסה שחורים, וילך למקום שאין מכירים אותו ויחזיר אבידה בדבר חשוב, או יוציא טריפה מתחת ידו בדבר חשוב. (לו ועיין בי"ד סי' קי"ט).

AND AGAIN DO NOT CALL ME! I COULD NOT SLEEP ALREADY FOR THE LAST WEEK (AND MORE).

COVID haredi unit head: Enforcement ineffective

 https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/covid-haredi-unit-head-enforcement-ineffective-654167

 The head of the Health Ministry’s coronavirus department for the ultra-Orthodox community, Roni Numa, said on Sunday that there was a lack of coronavirus enforcement in the sector because of its political power and the upcoming elections.

Numa denied, however, that the COVID-19 infection rate in the yeshiva system is out of control, although he said that several factors had led to an increase in the number of students being infected.

A quarter of all new virus cases diagnosed are among ultra-Orthodox

 https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-quarter-of-all-new-virus-cases-diagnosed-are-among-ultra-orthodox/

The Health Ministry official overseeing action to counter the coronavirus among Israel’s ultra-Orthodox population revealed Sunday that the community has recently accounted for over a quarter of all the new cases diagnosed, even though it makes up little more than a 10th of the total population.

During a video press briefing, Roni Numa said that enforcement of lockdown restrictions and quarantine for virus carriers among the ultra-Orthodox, also known as Haredim, was not good enough, in part for political reasons.

Iron Dome has curbed Palestinian terror attacks

Time Magazine

No tour of Middle East conflict zones could be complete without a stop at Sderot, an Israeli town of 24,000 that stands uncomfortably close to the Gaza Strip. The rain of rockets out of the Palestinian enclave has made Sderot famous for two things: the thickness of its roofs (even bus stops have reinforced concrete tops); and the collection of crumpled missiles arrayed in racks behind the police station. As a visiting VIP in 2008, U.S. Senator Barack Obama dutifully inspected what the machine shops of Islamic Jihad and Hamas fashioned from lengths of pipe and scrap metal. Low-tech doesn’t begin to cover it. [...]

Back to the Beersheba wedding. The revelry appears to carry on oblivious to the wail of air-raid sirens competing with the DJ (that song in the background is “Sunday Morning” by Maroon 5). If Israelis no longer scramble to shelters, then Iron Dome really has changed the dynamic. It’s not yet at that point; schools still close when the rockets fly, and parents stay home from work. But Rafael’s head of research and development, who began work on Iron Dome even before the government thought to ask for it, tells TIME that its overarching accomplishment is that it can break the pernicious cycle of escalation that can lead to things like invasions. The batteries can liberate Israel’s elected leaders from the public pressure that comes with mass casualties. “The big success of Iron Dome is not how many missiles we intercept,” says Roni Potasman, the executive vice president for R&D. “The main success is what happened in the decisionmaking civilian population environment. The quiet time. Clausewitz used to say the mission of the military is to provide the time for the decisionmakers to decide. Now, if out of 500 missiles, 10 of them get by and cause casualties, a school or kindergarten, then this is a whole different story.” [...]

Super computers match fragments of Cairo Geniza

NY Times   The idea is to harness technology to help reassemble more than 100,000 document fragments collected across 1,000 years that reveal details of Jewish life along the Mediterranean, including marriage, medicine and mysticism. For decades, scholars relied mainly on memory to match up pieces of the Cairo genizah, a treasure trove of papers that include works by the rabbinical scholar Maimonides, parts of Torah scrolls and prayer books, reams of poetry and personal letters, contracts, and court documents, even recipes (there is a particularly vile one for honey-wine). 

Now, for the first time, a sophisticated artificial intelligence program running on a powerful computer network is conducting 4.5 trillion calculations per second to vastly narrow down the possibilities. 

“In one hour, the computer can compare 10 million pairs — 10 million pairs is something a human being cannot do in a lifetime,” said Roni Shweka, who has advanced degrees in both computers and Talmud and is helping lead the effort. “It’s going to be a very powerful tool for every researcher today that’s going to work on one fragment. In a few seconds, he’ll be able to find the other fragments, like finding the needle in the hay.” 

The genizah project is part of a growing movement to unleash advanced technology on the humanities. In recent years, geeks and poets have been collaborating on databases and digital mapping that are transforming the study of history, literature, music and more.[...]

The 320,000 pages and parts of pages — in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Judeo-Arabic (Arabic transliterated into Hebrew letters) — were scattered in 67 libraries and private collections around the world, only a fraction of them collated and cataloged. More than 200 volumes and thousands of academic papers have been published based on the material, most focused on a single fragment or a few. Perhaps 4,000 have been pieced together through a painstaking, expensive, exclusive process that relied a lot on luck.  [...]

Haaretz backtracks on claims Israel forced birthcontrol on Ethiopians

Tablet Magazine   There was no shortage of outrage following a report by Haaretz in late Janaury asserting that Israel had acknowledged a policy of forcing long-acting birth control shots upon Ethiopian women in transit camps who wished to emigrate from Ethiopia to Israel. The story also charged that Israeli officials hadn’t told the women that the effects of the Depo-Provera shots. The explosive first of the story went like this:

A government official has for the first time acknowledged the practice of injecting women of Ethiopian origin with the long-acting contraceptive Depo-Provera.

Beyond the normal outlets that selectively focus on Israeli scandals, sites that report on women’s issues reprinted the Haaretz story and, in multiple acts of stenographic journalism, cast their vicious judgments of Israeli racism and sexism to their readerships.a

The first problem with the story: No Israeli official ever acknowledged there was such a practice at all, it was denied by Joint Distribution Committe, which ran the clinics, and the Health Ministry. (The Scroll was able to convince the popular site Jezebel to retract a damning first line after the story had already blown up and commenters had accused Israel of committing genocide.)

After an Israeli committee was established to investigate the matter, a second story ran in Haaretz last week repeating much of its original reporting. Then, earlier this week, came this correction (caught by CAMERA):

This article, which was updated on March 6, 2013, reported on Health Ministry director-general Prof. Roni Gamzu’s instruction to gynecologists not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera if there is any doubt that recipients did not understand the implications of the treatment. The original version failed to state that this instruction was issued “without taking a stand or determining facts about allegations that had been made,” and referred to all women and not just women of Ethiopian origin.

So not only had the head of the Health Ministry not admitted the practice, he had–of his own volition and not under duress from scandal–issued a directive for doctors to make sure that all women (and not just Ethiopian women in transit camps) fully understood what the shots would do. [...]

Israeli rabbis launch initiative to marry gay men to lesbian women

Haaretz

Rabbis from the religious Zionist community have launched an initiative to marry gay men to lesbian women - with some surprising successes.

So far, 11 marriages have been performed. Haaretz conducted an email interview with one such couple, Etti and Roni (not their real names ).

Etti and Roni, both religious, were married five years ago. Though they were honest with each other about their sexual orientations from their first meeting, to the outside world, they portray themselves as a normal heterosexual couple. Today, they have two children, and are thrilled with the results.

RaP: EJF as viewed in 2006

RaP: The Jewish Press from June 2006 [posted on this blog in 2007], a full year before this blog started really focusing on the EJF conundrum reveals and conforms a lot including all the "rationalizations" that Roni/Tropper kept on hammering over and over again.

In fact this could be called the standard EJF self-justification script when EJF was openly launched. Obviously at that time already Tropper knew he would have to answer for his new innovations and therefore he carefully laid out the whole script and battle plan. In hindsight, lots of it becomes self-contradictory with all the unknown variables that came flying there way: the Uproar over their excitable partner Rav Nochum Eisenstein's insulting the RCA and YU rabbis at the early EJF convention, the written declarations of Rav Shternbuch and the entire BADATS against EJF, and the final blow the disgraceful and ugly fall-out between Rabbi Tropper & Tom Kaplan with Guma Aguiar.

This makes for interesting reading even now and reveals a lot that is self-explanatory for anyone who has been following these events:

Rav Reuven Feinstein: Kiruv and mixed couples

I was sent a recent recording of Rav Reuven Feinstein,shlita regarding kiruv and mixed couples. He explicitly says that it is prohibited to advertise and promote seminars to attract mixed couples to come with the hope that they will eventually convert. He says that is only permitted to strengthen those couples that come on their own with a genuine interest to learn more about Judaism and without an awareness that mixed marriages are prohibited. Only such couples who are interested lshem shamayim are to be converted while those who know that intermarriage is wrong are to be rejected. He says it is not only his view but it is one Rav Eliashiv, shlita, expressed when they asked him what was permitted. Rav Reuven's view is the one I have long defended as normative against R' Tropper and his representative Roni - while they defended the view which Rav Reuven explicity rejects on this recording. Below is an example of EJF's advertisement for attracting mixed couples to a seminar - exactly that which Rav Reuven says on this recording is clearly prohibited.

Hidabroot Org BNRImgDetail ASP Qs3czfsi

Roni is having a breakdown

Despite my banning Roni, he is still compulsively sending me emails about how I am promoting intermarriage and phony conversons and am really a secret agent for all the people he has been condemning for the last year. He has even complained again to Rav Sternbuch about what an evil person I am.

Roni - I think it is best for your mental health to take a long vacation - maybe in your local mental hospital.

wishing you a refuah shleima

Rabbi Tropper and the halachic process

I am moving this topic from the comments of "Eternal Jewish Family rescues women captives with ...": to its own post Please reference the comments on the original posting.

Roni wrote:

REb Yid, after a simple question, you refer me to what?

The question is:

a) where does it say that Bais Din Kavua from Jupiter can force someone from MArs to appear in front of them when in MArs there is another beis din kavua?

b) And bichlal, what is going on here? This is not about a *din torah* between two parties where all the halachos of choshem mishpat apply; we are dealing with an issue of issur veheter, where one Rabbi follows his rabbonim and where does it say *anywhere* in any of the sources you wrote that "bais din kavua" has got *anything* to do with this?

You wrote a lot of mareh mekomoss which i am not privy to them. If you produce them online we will benefir to see if they relate to any of the two above questions!

So far, the source of Shulchan Oruch that is clear for me to check HAS GOT NOTHING (but nothing) to do with the two questions raised above.

I'll quote them for the benefit of the onlookers:

Then there is what is meforash in the Shulchan Aruch Ch"M 7:6.

מי שתובעין אותו לדון לפני דיין שקטן ממנו, אין הדיין יכול לכופו לילך לפניו, אלא מכנפי מאן דאיכא התם מחכימי ח ט) ומעיינים בינייהו.

a) Where does he talk a- beis din kavua versus beis din kavua?

b) and it does not apply at all to issur beheter pssokim!

Roni wrote:

Let me rephrase the whole matter of bais din kavua in three questions:

1) does Bais din Kavua of one place have a power in a different continent?

2) Especially, if at the different there is another Bais Din KAvua?

3) And most important than all questions: Where does it begin to say that "bais din kavua" has *any* relevance regarding questionspertaining to "issur veheter" (yoreh deah) as opposed to diney torah of choshen mishpat?

Any reference would be apprecited if the text can be linked!

The Choshen Mishpat 7:6 reference does not BEGIN to deal with any of the above!

Mekubal wrote

Issur V'Heter was actually a sefer that extracted from the Shulchan Aruch only the laws of Kashrut(food). Thus the laws of Kashrut found within Yorah Deah have colloquially begun to be called Issur V'Heter.

As far as the issues that a B"D has the right to rule on See Siman 1 of Choshen Mishpat. There you will find it explicitly spelled out, that marriages, divorces and conversions are within their purview.

R' Tropper is from the US, there is no B"D kavua in the US as has been stated in the iggros Moshe, Iggros Moshe Choshen Mishpat Vol iI end of siman 3).

The reference that I pointed you to in the Shulchan Aruch dealt with whether a Talmid Chochom, has the right to refuse a summons to appear before a B"D. If you had bothered to read the meforshim, especially the SM"A, you would have found that he does not even if he must travel a great distance.

What I find with you Roni is that whenever you begin to lose an argument halachically you begin to do two things. First is that you start to make personal attacks. Secondly you start an elaborate smoke and mirror show.

Sorry but I do not have digitized copies of these texts, and I have no intention to taking the time to type them in.

In the end R' Tropper is faced with a letter from a B"D telling him to cease and desist until such time as he can provide haskamot. This means two things.

1)First that his conversions are not universally accepted as any group that is part of the Eida, i.e. Satmar, Toldot Aharon, Bratslav, Belz and a few others, will see that this is geirut done in direct contradiction to the ruling of their B"D, and thus invalid.

2) It puts R' Tropper into an unenviable position of appearing to ignore a summons by a B"D. Which in itself considering that he is a Rosh Yeshiva ect. creates a Chillul HaShem and a serious issue of Marit Ayin as certainly people will come to think that if he pays no heed to the B"D neither do they need to.

Calling police - case of R' Tropper

R' Tropper's recent filing of a complaint with the police has prompted the question by RaP as to what the circumstances are for going to the police. In response Roni [R' Tropper passionate defender] posted a number of sources which were then questioned by Mekubal. This was a discussion taking place on "R' Tropper claimed his life was threatened - the o...":

I am making this a separate post and will transfer the original comments except for ones similar to the following which were censored for obvious reasons.

RONI said...

DAAT Torah, vekol hashemos shenikreu loy1
in short YOU WERE A FRAUD, ARE A FRAUD AND WILL REMAIN A FRAUD! YOU COULD CENSOR THE TRUTH BUT I NOW KNOW THAT YOU ARE THE SAME PIECE OF GARBAGE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE YOU DECRY! YOU CONSOR THE PIECE THAT IS ESSENTIAL TO THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE STORY, THE BACKGROUND TO THE STORY, THE RIGHTEOUSSNESS OF RT THE RISHOOS OF BOMZER AND ALL THEIR PARTNERS, THE PATH OF FAKE GERUT AND ALL THE LIKE, YOU DON'T WANT TO WRITE ABOUT THE PART OF THE STORY BECUASE THEY MAY SUE YOU, NU NU BUT SO THEN DO NOT WRITE ANYTHING ABOUT IT! YOU ARE THE SAME PIECE OF GARBAGE ANDLIAR AS ALL YOUR PARTNERS IN THE FAKE WORLD OF BLOGGERS THAT HATE TORAH OBSERVANT JEWS...SHOW YOU HONESTY AND TRANSPARENCY ....IT DOES NOT EXIST LIKE ALL THE OTHERS

mekubal has left a new comment on your post "R' Tropper claimed his life was threatened - the o...":

Actually Roni,

He posted both sides of the story. The first part is found here R Tropper said his life threatened. Which is pretty much R' Tropper's side of the story.

Then when Guma decided to talk to the press he posted a link to that as well. There is no censorship, simply linking to the relevant news stories. That is what is called fair and balanced reporting. Now if you want to give back story to the argument feel free, I am sure that D"T will publish it. Especially if you write it politely.

However, the truth is that you are not dealing with the issues. You are simply falling back on Ad hominim attacks. Why you feel the need to do that I am not sure. There as been no direct attacks on R' Tropper. In fact from my perspective I just want to the discuss the halachic validity of his actions.

So here are two honest questions:

1) Can you(or he) demonstrate the halachic validity of his going to a secular court with Tom Kaplan to sue for control of the Lilian Jean Kaplan Foundation? There is a very clear issur first expounded in Gittin 88B and then through the Rishonim and Achronim.

Shulchan Aruch(Choshen Mishpat 26:1): , It is forbidden to bring a case before non Jewish dayanim and their courts(meaning a permanent seat for their ministers to hear cases) even if they rule by dinei Yisrael, even if they agreed to bring the case before them, this is forbidden. All who come to judge before them, are considered to be Reshaim it is as if they blaspheme against Moshe Rabbeinu, peace be upon him.

Rama: the Beis Din may put into nidui or cherem one who brings a case before a non-Jewish court until he withdraws the case (Maharik, shoresh 187). And any one who supported a Jew bringing a case to a non-Jewish court was also put into cherem (Rivash (Siman 102). And even if he does not bring the case to be tried before the non-Jewish court but rather to use the non-Jewish court to force his Baal din to come to him for the case in Beis Din by means of their issuing a court order for this, it is appropriate to stretch him out on the pole (Mordechai, Bava Kama, perek hagozel kama). And see Siman 388. One who already brought his case before a non-Jewish court and was obligated by them and afterwards brings his claim before Dayanei Yisrael, there are those that say that we don’t relate to the matter, meaning the Dayanei Yisrael to not hear the case (Maharik, shoresh 187), and there are those that say that the case is heard (Mordechai, Bava Kama, Siman 195), unless he caused a loss to his opposing litigant before the non-Jewish judges, in which case it is no longer heard by dayanei Yisrael (the ruling of the Maharam Mirsbork). And the first line of reasoning seems to me the main one.

2)Which halachic authority gave the Ok for his latest prosecution of Guma?

Is child abuse pikuach nefesh?

Roni commented to a previous post - I am making it a separate post & moved other comments

Shalom!

Lean"d regarding 2 (and then 3), it is clear lefu, rihatoh that at best the C is applicable:

I have to check all M"M; but lefm ruhatoh it is barur, that there are two cases of refuah. a) where there is no sakanah whatsoever, b) where there is chashash sakonoh, especially if it is a safek or sfek sakanah.

It would appear clearly, that whereever there is a sakanah or safek sakanah, that we have an issue of pikuach nefesh! where it is much more than avedat gufoy!

The m"m that you cite are mostly for a) cases where there is no sakanat nefashot. A proof for that is: that at the beggining of YD 336 it says (after it states that it is reshut, it adds that it is ) Mitzvah "ubichlal pikuach nefesh!". It seems pashut that pikuach nefesh does not require the parsha and obligation of of "hashvat aveda"; it is a chiyuv on it's own.

It would appear that the reference that are cited later in the posskim (or the rishonim) refer to a situation where there is clearly no sakanat nefashot; there it is under the parsha of "hashavat gufoy"; but if it is akin to "roeh chaveroy toveah bayam..." or nochrim having a bad thought on a Jew (CM 426) then it falls under "loy taamod al dam reecho" and if it is a case of sakanat nefashot it falls under pikuach nefesh.

Wrt to three: It seems clear that there is an additional obligation of "atrichoy veoygureh" (to add tircha and hire experts) that is not under the general obgliation of a regular "hashavat gufoy".

the question will have to be analyzed what is the geder of molestation: "pikuach nefesh" sakanat nefesh or just "hashvat gufoy" (I would tend to a go with the former. But let's hear the discussion on it).

Regarding Chemdat Shlomoh. I don't have the mareh mekomot in my mind now, but I remember a LOT OF ACHRONIM MATMIHA ON THIS PATICULAR CHEMDAT SHLOMOH and disagreeing harshly with him.

Bechavod uvrachah,

EJF - Do rabbis know it converts mixed couples?

Aaron commented to "EJF - attracting non-Jews to proselytize - is permitted...":

Roni/R Tropper; I want to ask you , can you tell me with the full truth ,that all the Rabonim associated with the EJF including the beautiful dais that was shown at the confrence last week,are aware that the purpose of EJF is to be megayer these goyim in an intermarried couple? I have strong reason to beleive that they are being told one thing and the EJF is doing something else?

Michal bas Avraham commented to "EJF - attracting non-Jews to proselytize - is permitted...":

Aharon,
You are right they are not being told that the organization is there to convert intermarrieds. They are being told that they are trying to raise the standards of conversion. Last Shabbos, I was at someone's house and the husband told me three men in his kollel took some course to be on their baytai din. This is what they were told. Also, the RCA standards are actually higher. They know who is on their baytai din, real rabbis who have done conversions but, not the one before them. Whereas now we see about EJF.

Roni,
The EJF doesn't provide mentoring. They make you bring them your shul rabbi. They ask him to find you a mentor. They also ask him to "watch your attendance in shul." This is ridiculous. Anyone can go to shul and go home to watch TV. However, I've heard this from rabbis. They say, you have to live in my area so I can make sure you go to shul every week. Also, what about Brooklyn? In Brooklyn, a woman who goes to shul is like a prostitute that's how UNacceptable it is to go to shul.

I have blogged about EJF and I will do it again. They are this organization that just formed itself and run around with their ego telling everyone they better and have higher standards. Actually, they don't.

Rav Sternbuch - converting wife with invalid geirus

This is the type of case that Rav Eliashiv was referring to in his published teshuva (3:140) and it is the type of case that most poskim would agree that it is appropriate to convert the non-Jewish spouse. The insistence of having conventions and pursuing people who knowingly sinned by intermarriage is not validated by this approach. The attempt of Roni and R' Tropper to insist that leniencies such as this allow them to hold conventions to persuade intermarried couples to convert requires clearly stated teshuvos to that effect from Gedolim. Even their posek Rav Reuven Feinstein has not issued a heter for this nor has he stated publicly that it is permitted.As far as I can ascertain - Rav Reuven Feinstein does not disagree with Rav Sternbuch on this issue.

סימן ה:שבב

הערה נענין נישואין לבעלת תשובה

באו לפנינו מקרים של בני תורה שהתחתנו עם בעלות תשובה, ואח"כ נתברר שאם הכלה היא גיורת שנתגיירה ולא שמרה מצוות מעולם, ואומדנא דמוכח שלא נתכוונה בשעת גירותה לשמור מצוות, והפוסקים כתבו שלא חלה הגירות והיא עודנה בגויותה, וכן בתה, אף שהיא בעלת תשובה וצדקנית ונשואה לבן תורה, מ"מ מדין תורתה"ק היא גויה ובעלה חייב לפרוש ממנה, והטבלנו אותה בצינעא בפני בית דין לשם גירות, ובעלה קידשה ונשאה עוד פעם בפני עדים כדין. זה הוא אם אמה של הכלה נתגיירה ולא שמרה מצוות מעולם, אבל אם אמה של הכלה גופא החלה אח"כ לשמור מצוות, אין לי הכרעה, ומ"מ צריך לחומרא להטבילה...

Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 5:322): Concerning a marriage to a baalas teshuva. We have cases coming before us of a ben Torah marrying a baalas teshuva and then afterwards it is discovered that the bride's mother was a giyorus who never observed mitzvos. It is reasonable to assume that the mother had no intention of observing mitzvos at the time she converted. The Poskim says that therefore the mother was never a convert and thus she is still a non-Jew and obviously so is her daughter the bride. This is so even if the bride is a genuine baalas teshuva and truly righteous and she has shown her sincerity by marrying a ben Torah. Nevertheless according to the law of the Torah she is a non-Jew and her husband must separate from her. However she is to be immersed in the mikva secretly before a beis din for the sake of conversion. Her husband needs to marry her a second time in the presence of kosher witnesses. This is if the bride's mother converted and never observed mitzvos. However if her mother eventually did come to observe mitzvos - it is not clear whether the daughter is Jewish but she should l'chumra be converted....

EJF's hilchos geirus program - what is it's purpose?

It has been claimed by Kanoimpogimbo that his community is being destroyed by rabbis as the result of EJF's welcoming attitude toward interfaith couples. The question is whether EJF in fact encourages the proselytizing of non-Jews who are dating Jews and encourages non-Jews to attend Torah lectures or that these rabbis who are participating in EJF hilchos geirus program have serious misunderstood EJF. Perhaps Roni could explain the purpose of the hilchos geirus program and what it teaches. If in fact these rabbis have misunderstood it, it is obviously necessary to inform R' Tropper that the goals of EJF - in least in this instance - are seriously misunderstood and that he needs to make sure the participants properly understand it. Below is the contract that participants sign. Perhaps R' Tropper should write a public letter condeming their attitude and I would be glad to pass it on and/or publicize it.

Rabbi Tropper apologizes!

I wish to thank Roni for the following:

Rav Sternbuch on the EJF

Posted by Rabbi Tropper Posted in EJF Posted on 11-07-2009

Tags: EJF, Rav Sternbuch

Rabbi Tropper:

Is it true that your blog claimed that Rav Sternbuch told someone that he was against nasty attacks on EJF?

Rabbi Tropper responds:

I was so told. Subseqently someone emailed me that what I reported on the blog was not true and that Rav Sternbuch had not spoken to anyone regarding the attacks on EJF. I thanked him for notifying me and told him That I would correct it ASAP.

That Person Emailed me again thanking me.

I then Removed it from the Blog immediatly and notified that person that it had been corrected.

I apologize for the mistake.