Tuesday, December 9, 2008

EJF - RaP's recapitulation

RaP responds to Roni's questions from a previous "EJF - Proselytizing Advertisement":
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To Roni who said... "It is overwhelming clear that you on a rampage campaign against R. Tropper"

RaP: Nope, I am not on a "rampage" and you are mistaking and confusing a serious interest in this subject and thorough analysis and misnaming it a "rampage" simply because you don't like the concluions. Stop calling names and acting "frum" and holier-than-thou and debate the points in detail, if you can.


Furthermore, if you had even bothered to read some of my other posts you will see that I have defended Rabbi Tropper many times right here on this very blog, and in depth, trying to fathom and explain where he is coming from on kiruv and geirus issues and I even took Rabbi Tropper's hashkafic point of view against the owner of this blog and some of his serious supporters in the complex and sad Rabbi Slifkin saga (but I do not support Rabbi Tropper's alleged methods in slandering Rabbi Slifkin against other gedolim.)

If you don't believe me, please see the following five posts on this blog for yourself:

1) My post at "Rabbi Tropper & Prague - what happened?" at where I tried to explain Rabbi Tropper's complex position that became a new post at:

2) "R' Tropper - Kiruv vs Geirus/ RaP's analysis" at See my comments there that which shows my deepest sympathies with Rabbi Tropper's present struggles:
"Rabbi Tropper is from those kiruv workers (his main stock in trade) who works using the hard-sell method and he is very good at what he does in kiruv and is famous for his heady, strong-willed, blusterry speeches meant to bowl over his listeners, and yes he can be very intimidating and insulting to his listeners who may not share his moods. (Guess what: This is actually good kiruv believe it or not, because it is prone to induce a mind-shift as a form of "shock therapy" in his listeners opening them up to new Torah ideas they had never heard before), although he can also take it slow and gentle when he works with very diverse audiences who he knows will not go for his shock tactics. And yes, he generally holds that those who become his disci[les must adhere to quick adherence to his utterances and rules. Rabbi Tropper's kiruv methods as such are not an issue in this dialogue, nor do I think that his role in getting Rabbi Slifkin's books off the frum radar screen has anything to do with the current set of "Kiruv vs Geirus" issues that are riling Rabbi Tropper and confusing those who come face to face with him today because right now the man is a walking dichotomy. A sort of split personality, not fully conscious of the depth of his inner turmoil and extent of the self-contradiction he is spilling wherever he goes nowadays, as his kiruv side battles and tries to reconcile itself with the issues of geirus he has now immersed himself in for better or worse, and he is in over his head this time. While Rabbi tropper is agadol in the kiruv world, he is a zero in the world of dayanim and batei din. And yes, he is a big talmid chochme, but most rosh yeshivas (which he also claims to be of Kol Yaakov Yeshiva) are not involved in shimush lema'aseh and they are not dayanim. You do not go to a rosh yeshiva if you want to get divorced or are looking for a geirus. Rosh yeshivas are generally never poskim except for what goes on inside their yeshivas, and unlike a kiruv worker who can and MUST walk all over the range looking for people to mekarev, a dayan on the other hand, MUST contain himself and restrict himself to a very narrow venue, the Bais Din and its confines where he sits in judgment of cases and of others. In short, how to reconcile Kiruv ("drawing people close") and Richuk ("distancing" people)? How to reconcile the need to be a sweet Kiruv Worker (who must always be winning JEWISH friends and influencing people to eventually become/morph into being Haredi/Yeshivish) and on the other hand with a conflicting task, the enforcing the rules and dictates of Batei Din in regard to conversions that requires, per force, the distancing and pushing away of people, certianly gentiles and if need be even the Jews attached to those gentiles."
3) "R' Slifkin - context of ban /Ra" at where I even say:
"You know, this is where you have to admire Rabbi Tropper's kiruv derech that at least he does not lose himself or his students on all this fake double-talk about having some sort of allegiance to science and secular knowledge when as he rightly holds, Torah is not a substance that can be mixed or diluted with anything else to prove its powers and validity" and defending him "It's now le'acaher hama'aseh, and to get back to the point, Rabbi Tropper, at the end of the day is just a cog in what turned out to be pretty hefty Haredi machine. What can you do, that is just the way it goes sometimes."
4) "Kiruv I - The end of kiruv as we know it!" at l where I state that
"Rabbi Leib Tropper went in the other direction, feeling that both Ohr Somaych and Aish HaTorah had lost sight of their main mandate of basing everying ONLY on intense Gemora learning and rapid paced transformation to being a Ben Torah (not a bad goal but not as attractive to the nasses as Aish HaTorah's appeal, as is evident.)...Rabbi Tropper's Kol Yaakov yeshiva also in Monsey that stresses only the learning element, even though it does have an outrecah "Horizons" program...Rabbi Tropper is a venturer because with his EJF program to welcome in by doing outreach the non-Jewish spouses of interfaith couples under "strict" Beth Din auspices (actually fueling the flames of the process, as it were) he is doing a classical juggling act, that on the one hand he is trying to preempt and ward off attacks from the Haredi world he admires and respects and needs but at the the same time he is caving in to the interfaith flood at the gate and in this he is no different to ALL other Kiruv workers out there today trying to cope with the flood tide of interfaith students (meaning students from mixed marriages or intermarrieds themseleves, or those with non-Halachic conversions), and instead of calling a spade a spade and seeing the writing on the wall, that THE AGE OF KIRUV AS WE KNOW IT IS OVER..."And much of the above became the new post at:
5) "Kiruv II - Paradigm change for outreach workers" at

So at this time, unless you can acknowledge otherwise, it is obvious that you have not been reading those posts but just come here and make a few belly-aching comments simply because you don't like a few things you hear here.


"and the more you attack every single person associated with him an even attack Rav REuven Feinstein shows your even more your irrational campaign."

RaP: Can you point to the alleged "irrationality" you IMAGINE? Is the owner of this blog Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn "irrational", who posted I, II and and many other posts like this and who posts his and others' comments after serious review of each comment and who opposes the EJF effort and Rabbi Tropper's methods? Is Rav Moshe Shternbuch "irrational" for opposing efforts, see "Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Authorized Translation" and "Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Kiruv for non-Jews and "Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad" like those of Rabbi Tropper and the EJF? Is the entire BADATZ of the powerful Eidah HaChareidis "irrational" (are Horav Meir Brandsorfer, Horav Moshe Sternbuch, Horav Naftoli Frenkal, Horav Avrohom Yitzchok Ulman, Horav Yakov Mendel Yorovitch, Horav Yehoushua Rosenberg ALL "irrational" too for signing it?) see "Bedatz letter regarding conversion" and of taking the extreme measure of openly, see "Bedatz letter regarding conversion" and rebuking and warning dayanim and batei din all over the world who were Recipients of its official warning letters and giving Publicicty to it, authorising its dissemination online through this very blog by Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn. It has been Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn who has asked for written Halachik clarifications from Rabbi Tropper and EJF and none has been forthcoming, so take it up with him if you think he and others being "irrational" for asking for a written reason al pi din and for his efforts EJF tried to smear him, see "EJF smear campaign"

"While I unerstan the reservations against R. Tropper an his plans,"

RaP: You do? Like what? This may be the seed of some fruitful discussions perhaps, don't you think? instead of hiding behind smokescreens and blaming others of being "irrational" when you have no good RATIONAL and LOGICAL and FACTUAL arguments or proofs of your own to produce, so far.

"your voice of opposition shows that there is more at stake for his critics that are far from "leshem shamayim."

RaP: You are wrong and Rabbi Tropper has yet to prove that everything he does is "leshem shamayim" and not coming from his notorious over-sized ego that brooks no opposition and who yells at anyone who dares oppose him.


Rabbi Tropper does not need "defenders" that make him look like he is the "poor little victim" of something when he is not.

Rabbi Tropper and Dr. Tom Kaplan sat down and decided on their own on a new scheme, that went far beyond in a quantum leap from Rabbi Tropper's world of kiruv and his Baal teshuva Kol Yaakov Yeshiva (which he ran very well) and would now branch into the world of batei din and geirus (based on many reasons that I have discussed in my other posts) that they called "EJF" and how to sell it to rabbonim and to the frum world and of course to the world of gentiles who were married or hitched to Jews and who would now be targeted for being inspired to get "real" conversions at Batei Din, and how to implement all this as if this was a "product" like Coca Cola that was being launched based on a business plan with lots of financing and professionalism behind it. So let's get real please and not talk like babies.

"With regards to Rabbi Bomzer (which i can clearly see that what bothers you is that R. Tropper an many Rabbonim that participate in EJF attack the fake an phony conversions of people like R. H Bomzer),"

RaP: Quite honestly, nobody on this blog could give a hoot about Rabbi Bomzer because if you had read all the posts seriously you will see that most posters here are against ANY kind of easy conversions no matter from who, be it Rabbi Bomzer, Chabad, kiruv organizations and workers, the RCA, the Israeli Rabbanut and now including Rabbi Tropper and his EJF. So cut out the nonsense because noone on this blog cares about or has anything to do with Rabbi Bomzer.

"he is known in many circles for his false conversions where he converts people 1) knowing ahead of time that they are not interested to keep torah and mitzvot (not only that they have lapses in the future); do not keep shabbat, kashrut, taharat ha mishpacha from the very outset. 3) Actually the rabbanut over ten years ago has written that his conversion needs bedikah! for his reputation is actually very well known, an most importantly his fees are also known!"

RaP: All this is interesting, but not to the point and only proves that YOU want to now smear Rabbi Bomzer. If you want to get into these kind of discussions, then you will discover that most situations involving geirus involve matters of self-interest somewhere along the line. It was Rabbi Tropper's connection with Tom Kaplan whose sister married to a man of Hispanic ancestry (Otto Aguiar) and who needed a conversion for himself and son ("Guma Kaplan Aguiar is the son of Ellen Kaplan.") that was a huge factor dragging Rabbi Tropper into this whole EJF adventure, see "Who is behind Eternal Jewish Family?" and "Is Eternal Jewish Family the center of the universe?" It may be rabbis who need money and charge fees, or interfaith couples who lie about their true intentions just to fool the dayanim, entire rabbinates and batei din that are not respected and are negated by other batei din, like happeened to Rabbi Drukman at the hands of Rav sherman and the High Court of the Rabbanut and Rabbi Tropper at the hands of the Bais Din of the Eidah Hachareidis for attempts at working to facilitate mass conversions. So while talking about RabbI bomezer may be true and interesting it is not much different to all the other problems that will arise for rabbis in the geirus business. So again, quit harping about Rabbi Bomzer, because he is already history, noone here really cares about him, and the focus is now on Rabbi Troppe and EJF and it would be apprecaited if you can expa=lain to us what Rabbi Tropper and EJF are doing that is so great that in the meantime so many people are having genuine Halachic issues with it.

"Continue to defend him and other similar rabbis"

RaP: Noone is defedning anyone here if you haven't noticed. This is a forum for discussion and you are welcome to join it instead of standing on the sidelines making silly comments.

"an attack vehemently Rav Reuven Feinstein and others with such disparagment and everyone will see clearly publicity's agenda!"

RaP: Again you fail to understand that this is a serious matter that is under discussion and just by saying that Rabbi Reuven feinstein like Rabbi tropper and wishes him well, while on this blog Rabbi Tropper has been asked dozens of times to produce WRITTEN haskomas from Rav Reuven or Rav Dovid Feinstein and he still does not, must mean that RabbI tropper does not have a written haskoma to do outreach to gentiles in order to get them to convert and marry Jewish spouses. This is no different to learning any sugya where the subject is open and we must look for answers and if no official answers are given it is possible to speculate for motives that require greater clarity. Can you answer this question please: Does or has Rav Reuven shlit"a or Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit"a or any institutions they head ever received financial backing and donations from Dr. Tom Kaplan and one his family or any businesses and foundations they head? Let's get real with some real questions instead of your bobba-maises.

"Rabbi Bomzer is not unique and he can't be blamed for every conversion that went off the rails."

RaP: Right, and Rabbi Tropper is not unique and he cannot be blamed for every person he once mekareved and then went off the rails. And just like I would not blame Rabbi Tropper for his kiruv failures noone can blame any serious Orthodox rabbi who is a dayan for conversions when converts go off the rails because just like SOME Baalei teshuva fail in the end to stay frum, many geirim in the end fail in the end to stick to their commitments to be truly Halachically Jewish. And guess what, every religious Bar Mitzva boy starts out good but by the time his life is over many Jews are off the derech, and it is not always the fathers' and mothers' who must be blamed. But while all that is intersting, this is not what this discussion is about, which is the determination of Rabbi Tropper and RJF to pursue mass conversions for goyim, which even for the best and frummest of reasons, MUST result in a huge catatsrophe for Klal Yisroel, and per force mass Chillul hashem in its wake, and he should be convinced to stop now at all costs, before his "solutions" and "cures" become worse than the diseases and plagues of assimilation and intermarriage.

8 comments :

  1. Just a quick question for the moderator?

    Why are you letting these diatribes go on the main post? This is turning into the Jerry Springer show.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Bartley Kulp said...

    Just a quick question for the moderator?

    Why are you letting these diatribes go on the main post? This is turning into the Jerry Springer show.
    ==========================

    Not sure what your objection is. Is it the length or the content? The length and need for live links precludes its inclusion in comments.

    I think Roni has asked some very solid questions and I think that RaP has produced some solid answers.

    In other words the debate between the two of them has served to clarify some of the issues and at the same time demonstrates the complexity of the issues.

    Since Rabbi Tropper - despite an initial exchange of emails with me - refuses to involve himself in these discussion and his representatives have dropped out a while ago - this is the closest thing to a genuine discussion of the issues.

    ReplyDelete
  3. RAP,

    The truth is that I would love to engage in a discussion that shows respectfully how some of the EJf's positions are not the most ideal. And likewise I woul love to respectfully show that there is a dire need for an organization such as EJF to raise the consciousnesses of many an to erect a line of unity to stem the tide of of those who have made a living from making phony conversions and for bringing goyim into klal yisroe.

    But the sheloy leshem zeal by the you (on top to the blinded position by the ower of this blog) makes this impossible. Yuo go on a diatribe against roshey yeshivot and rabbis as "money fressers" and despite your ocasional "defense" of R. Troper it is overwhelmingly clear that this is only to be used as a "kortov shel emess" so that the other sheker that you bring stick.

    So there is no room for discussion. The only thing to point out is that a)there may be an ulterior motive, b) that there is a need for an organization such an ejf, partially to stem the tie of decades where rabbis made conversions without any kabalat hamitzvot, c) that the situation was so dismal that even some of the Rabis of other serious organizations (like the RCa) acknowleged and aligned with the Chief Rabbinate in Israel to fix the problems (which is to show that the problems were serious and they needed fixing). d) And obviosly there are some rabis who were known to havfe made a joke about the bu$$iness of covnersion. e) since you attack RT and the ROshey Yeshivot that align with them so personal and with such ugly colors and with such contradictory positions (on the side of your mouth you talk them being "frummer" and on the other side of your mouth you talk about them being lening in proseltyzing mass conversions and on the third side of your mouth you attack all choshuver RY and Rabbonmi who support them, for all thesereasons it is important to present at least one of the rabbis which RT's organization came to fix his ruins of destruction.

    RHB iis one of them. Now just on one of your besmriching of RT on the OTto Agiar conversion! what chutzpah?! Who was involved and did the conversion of Guma Aguiar?? RABBI HERBERT BOMZER! It is clear that you guys want to besmirch RT and coverup RHB for all the ills that he brought to the serious issue of covnersion!
    And no RHB is not history! He is still around and your budies continue to send him prospective converts and many are not ready or not interersted in real conversion. So if you want are interested to besmirch RT be ready to be told about your coverup for the real reasons of your concern with EJF: he takes away the bus$iness of some your buddies. And this is pertinent to the discussion!


    "Again you fail to understand that this is a serious matter that is under discussion and just by saying that Rabbi Reuven feinstein like Rabbi tropper and wishes him well, while on this blog Rabbi Tropper has been asked dozens of times to produce WRITTEN haskomas from Rav Reuven or Rav Dovid Feinstein and he still does not, must mean that RabbI tropper does not have a written haskoma to do outreach to gentiles in order to get them to convert and marry Jewish spouses..." :

    What kind of bobba maysses are you hacking? There is no greater haskamah than actual participation in these convetions! Rav REuven goes to all these sessions!!

    .' Can you answer this question please: Does or has Rav Reuven shlit"a or Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit"a or any institutions they head ever received financial backing and donations from Dr. Tom Kaplan and one his family or any businesses and foundations they head? Let's get real with some real questions instead of your bobba-maises'.

    Yes let's get real with these bobbah mayssehs! Did you or your budies get any financial backing from aassisting people to get converte by RHB when those conversions were phony and fake but they were done to kasher their fake marriage and got reware finacially for these services???

    Rav Reuven an Rav Dovid heard many of this horror stories and therefore decided to back an instituion like the EJF!

    ReplyDelete
  4. Recipients and PubllcityDecember 14, 2008 at 8:06 PM

    roni said... "RAP, The truth is that I would love to engage in a discussion that shows respectfully how some of the EJf's positions are not the most ideal."

    RaP: May I just note that it seems that judging from the style in language and tone it seems that more than one poster are utilizing the "Roni/roni" ID in behalf of Rabbi Tropper/EJF, some using very rudimentary English as used by a Hebrew speaker writing in a second language, others using more sophisticated verbiage, and yet a third one who is evidently a talmid chochem familar with the language of chazal and yeshivish. No matter.

    It may just be one person who was playing all roles, but it seems that (finally?) perhaps the Rabbi Tropper/EJF camp have decided to make its voice heard and not just defend itself but go on the counter-offensive and attack anyone and anything it does not like, which in many ways makes it worse because like a blocked sewer it only prevents the obfuscations from being flushed away and for the unvarnshed truth to be at least spotted, identified and stated.

    So instead of stonewalling, using red herrings, throwing wild insults, and addressing points that are not even in dispute, such as that noone on this blog has expressed any real connection or liking or approval of what Rabbi Bomzer or any rabbis like him have been doing.

    On the contrary Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah has allowed this blog to be a gathering point for many voices who vehemently oppose the questionable mass conversions by those like Rav Drukman and has spoken out in favor of opposition to him. Personally, my take on that situation was that when one Bais Din negates another Bais Din, even if it be a "lower" one without more due process (Rav Drukman was not even asked to come and present his position in full and defgend himself, so it had kind of a kangaroo court/lynch mob sensation), it's a dangerous precedent because it opens up a pandora's box of any and all batei din negating each other in round robin fashion wit each claiming holier-than-thou status in a never ending vicious cycle.

    And there have been heavy criticisms on this blog of Chabad and its perceived leniencies with baalei teshuva and conversions, and complaints against the loopholes that kiruv workers in Aish HaHatorah and in the Modern Orthodox world give themselves such as Rabbi Gedalia Scwartz of Chicago's Bais Din, with accepting converts. So EJF is not an exception, but because with the help of Dr. Tom Kaplan's Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation, for about the last four years EJF has launched a multi-million drive to "get noticed" and put itself and Rabbi Tropper at the "center of the conversion world" it cannot turn around, as Roni/roni does here and cry foul that wha-wha, why are you picking on EJF and Rabbi Tropper only, when EJF and Rabbi Tropper has only itself to blame for getting itself noticed with it's need for high profiling itself and its activitities.

    So this is all par for the course and Roni/roni/Rabbi Tropper/EJF/Dr. Tom Kaplan/Kaplan Foundation/Leor Energy need to be more mature and grown up and treat discussions like this with more seriousness because now that they have managed to gain the attention of the world, and many in that world are asking valid questions (sometimes they may seem basic and repetitious) of them, they cannot turn around to the world and tell the entire world to go fly a kite and to ask this and that rabbi no matter how famous and leave us alone or how dare you be so insolent as to ask any questions when we have so many rabbis coming to our conventions or shut up or you are liars or you need to do it the Rabbi Tropper-my-way-or-the-highway way -- when this a matter that effects the entire Jewish world, and not just this or that rabbi or this are that group or faction.

    Noone owns Shabbos observance or any mitzvah and geirus is a serious mitzah because the Torah and Tanach are replete with how to accept or reject converts and all Jews are commanded to love all genuine geirei tzedek, and noone can hide, not Rabbi Bomzer, not Rabbi Drukman, not Lubavitch, not the RCA nor the Rabbanut nor Aish HaTorah AND certainly NOT RABBI TROPPER AND EJF nor any bais din anywhere can say that this mitzah is "ours" and let us do as we wish with it. A mitzvah cannot be hijacked and noone has the monopoly on Eliyahu Hanavi's seal to arrogantly defy the world when they are all involved in matters of geirus (and that includes Rabbi Tropper and EJF because he has thrown himself into it now.)

    "And likewise I woul love to respectfully show that there is a dire need for an organization such as EJF to raise the consciousnesses of many an to erect a line of unity to stem the tide of of those who have made a living from making phony conversions and for bringing goyim into klal yisroe."

    RaP: This is nonsense. Yiddishkeit does not need "organizations" it has far too many already. There is no mitzvah to create organizations which are totally alien and goyish concepts. There are so many organizations in the Orthodox and frum world already that it is mind blowing. For Shidduchim. For infertility. For cancer r"l. For poverty. For widows and orphans. For divorcees. For Agunas. For kiruv workes. For kids at risk and parents. For mental health workers. Abuse hotlines. Kollelim. Yeshivas. Day schools... and it goes on and on... and now someone brilliant sat down and created EJF and the world must stand to attention and salute? Great. Just what was needed. And see all the turmoil and dust it raises. Aftre its first couple of conventions and meetups of rabbonim, the RCA, YU crowd and the Modern Orthodox walk out on it. The Eidah HaChareidis blasts and condemns it. Its previous public ally Rabbi Nochhum Eisenstien ducks out and his Vaad Halomi Leinyanei Giyur cool off AND GO THEIR OWN WAY and keep EJF and Rabbi Tropper at arms length. It's head Rabbi Tropper is a VERY controversial figure and his expertise is not even in geirus, he is not a dayan and never has been. He has no shimush in practical rabbonus, only in making young guys very yeshivishly frum since he has been a kiruv worker and head of a very small kiruv yeshiva all his life. This is a headache, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

    "But the sheloy leshem zeal by the you (on top to the blinded position by the ower of this blog) makes this impossible."

    RaP: Right, only Rabbi Tropper is capable of "kosher lemehadrin zeal"!

    "Yuo go on a diatribe against roshey yeshivot and rabbis as "money fressers" and despite your ocasional "defense" of R. Troper it is overwhelmingly clear that this is only to be used as a "kortov shel emess" so that the other sheker that you bring stick."

    RaP: Kindly name and clearly and logically prove ANY sheker, and I will not only retract ANYTHING I have stated that you can prove is absolutely false or that I deliberately lied, but I will offer my sincerest heartfelt apologies in full on this.

    "So there is no room for discussion."

    RaP: The old Rabbi Tropper my-way-or-the-highway way absolutist sydrome in its full grown glory diplayed publicly by this comment.

    "The only thing to point out is that a)there may be an ulterior motive,"

    RaP: Like what? By expensive PR, Rabbi Tropper has made himself and EJF into full blown public topics so public discussions about him amd EJF is only natural, and yes he is famous in the kiruv world and many people know about him and his methods and have opinions and feelings about it, but that does not mean that they are under an oath of silence (like in the Mafia?) not able to render those opinions or feelings opnely, clearly and too bad you don't like it, PUBLICLY, since it is for a very long time a public matter that has been in the public domain for a very long time now, when Rabbi Tropper and EJF is in the Jewish papers or news sites they read very often. People are not robots that can be ordered and programmed to be silent or to agree with Rabbi Tropper (or with any rabbi or person) and EJF (or with any organizations just because they claim to have lots of rabbis who came to their meetings) as if they were hearing pronoucements from Moshe Rabbeinu at Har Sinai.

    "b) that there is a need for an organization such an ejf, partially to stem the tie of decades where rabbis made conversions without any kabalat hamitzvot,"

    RaP: Yes, and it is called VAAD HORABBONIM HAOLAMI LEINYONEI GIYUR http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/vaad.htm backed 100% by Rav Eliashiv shlit"a and it is headed by Rav Nochum Eisenstein in Israel. Rabbi Tropper can relax now and stop frustrating himself and the world around him and go back to doing kiruv in America, giving shiurim in his Kol Yaakov yeshiva and EJF is allowed to become defunct, like other recent organizations did, such as the MO's EIDAH which also had noble goals for the Jewish people but had to shut down when others took over its mission.

    "c) that the situation was so dismal that even some of the Rabis of other serious organizations (like the RCa) acknowleged and aligned with the Chief Rabbinate in Israel to fix the problems (which is to show that the problems were serious and they needed fixing)."

    RaP: Yes, and Rav Kreiswirth ztk"l of Belgium saw the need as deeply BEFORE Dr. Tom Kaplan and Rabbi Tropper, and that is why he created VAAD HORABBONIM HAOLAMI LEINYONEI GIYUR, and with it set up a full Bais Din Leinyanei Giur (a step even Rabbi Tropper and EJF had NO power or ability to do) and appointed Rav Nochum Eisenstein to head it as one of its Dayanim and leading spokesman, ALL with the knowledge, input and blessings of Rav Eliashiv, approximately about five years BEFORE Rabbi Tropper and EJF came on the scene.

    So again, Rabbi Tropper and EJF are a redundancy and Rabbi Tropper should find better things to do with his time and he should guide Dr. Tom Kaplan to give his money to other more worthwhile causes.

    "d) And obviosly there are some rabis who were known to havfe made a joke about the bu$$iness of covnersion."

    RaP: This is not new and it it to be found everywhere. But so far Rabbi Tropper has not proven that he can make things any better by ruinning around and screaming at rabbis, dayanim and prospective geirim. He is not the man for this job.

    "e) since you attack RT and the ROshey Yeshivot that align with them so personal and with such ugly colors and with such contradictory positions (on the side of your mouth you talk them being "frummer" and on the other side of your mouth you talk about them being lening in proseltyzing mass conversions and on the third side of your mouth you attack all choshuver RY and Rabbonmi who support them, for all thesereasons it is important to present at least one of the rabbis which RT's organization came to fix his ruins of destruction."

    RaP: When a bachur goes to a yeshiva he is told to look at all the sides of a sugya. There is not only "one side" when there are twelve rishonim, twenty acaharonim, and multiple meforshim and teshuvos all on one sugya. So you don't even sound like a ben Torah when you call on a person you disagree with to shut up because they see at least three sides to a picture that has dozeens if not hundreds of angles to it. Grow up.

    "RHB iis one of them. Now just on one of your besmriching of RT on the OTto Agiar conversion! what chutzpah?! Who was involved and did the conversion of Guma Aguiar?? RABBI HERBERT BOMZER! It is clear that you guys want to besmirch RT and coverup RHB for all the ills that he brought to the serious issue of covnersion!
    And no RHB is not history! He is still around and your budies continue to send him prospective converts and many are not ready or not interersted in real conversion. So if you want are interested to besmirch RT be ready to be told about your coverup for the real reasons of your concern with EJF: he takes away the bus$iness of some your buddies. And this is pertinent to the discussion!"

    RaP: Sure, dream on and scream away in your wild fantasies. Converts, like baalei teshuva, very frequently seek out the help of many levels of rabbis and it is not uncommom for a ger to get a conversion and then to be either told or seek out yet another "frummer" holier-than-thou conversion. So be it. But, let me just tell you something, and get this through your head: Rabbi Bomzer is wrong! Rabbi Tropper is wrong! And you are obviously wrong! Because neither I nor the owner of this blog and most of the other posters here that I can tell agree with what EITHER Rabbi Bomzer OR Rabbi Tropper are doing and there is no agreement that your "defense" of Tropper should or can be based on your "attack" on Bomzer that you somehow think involves us. Certainly not me. I am a blogger in cyberspace and not a rabbi doing conversions and I have never done or been paid for a conversions. I oppose all false conversions that result in false geirim! I also oppose efforts to induce or recruit gentiles to become Jews no matter if it's done by RCA rabbis, the Israeli rabbinate, Chabad, Aish HaTorah or EJF.

    "What kind of bobba maysses are you hacking? There is no greater haskamah than actual participation in these convetions! Rav REuven goes to all these sessions!!"

    RaP: Ok. Ask Dr. Eidensohn if he will accept that. But you know you are wrong and you are evading an important issue. Would a shull hire a rabbi without an official semicha, even if they claimed they learned in Rabbi Reuven or Dovid Feinstein's yeshiva for twenty years? Let's say someone claims to be a rabbi but even after being begged a hundred times cannot produce any sort of semicha (unless he is of the caliber of the Chazon Ish and please don't tell us you think that Rabbi Tropper is on the madreigah of the Chazon Ish or of any other gadol!) or even a simple letter of recommendation from a well known senior rabbi, and then people, are told, in fact the whole world is told, that that rabbi without any documentation is the "official rabbi" would the fact that he comes to shull three times a year prove that he is an official rabbi and that what the shull does in his name (like accepting people to a conversion program it advertises all over the world) is 100% ok? In the world we live in, every simple ballebus knows that you need to prove your status and position with written haskomes and credentials, especially in something as serious as converting gentiles. Sure, Rabbi Tropper for himself personally does not need Rav Reuven Feinstein to sign anything for Dr. Tom Kaplan to give funding in the millions but it is the WORLD that now needs to be satisfied and the world is not Rabbi Tropper's private plaything. The world gets no money from Dr. Tom Kaplan and the world is asking for Rabbi Tropper to come up with something written from Rav Reuven Feinstein preferably with Rav Dovid Feinstein as well, not just with PR photos of rabbis sitting on a dais (rabbis go to wedding, asifas, and dinners and sit on a dais very often and it proves little except that they bothered to show up in spite of their busy schedules.)

    "Yes let's get real with these bobbah mayssehs! Did you or your budies get any financial backing from aassisting people to get converte by RHB when those conversions were phony and fake but they were done to kasher their fake marriage and got reware finacially for these services???"

    RaP: No! I never received a penny from anyone connected to Rabbi Bomzer. I have never approved of any false conversions. I fight them. Unlike Rabbi Tropper and EJF who received millions in funding from Dr. Tom Kaplan, as everyone knows. But you know, you answered a question with a question and you still have not answered if Rabbi Reuven Feinstein and his instititions have ever received funding through their associations with Rabbi Tropper and mutual financial backers that they may have?

    "Rav Reuven an Rav Dovid heard many of this horror stories and therefore decided to back an instituion like the EJF!"

    RaP: There are horror stories everywhere about many things. Ugly divorces. Infidelity. Mamzerus. Agunos. Gerushos. Shalom Bayis horrors. Youth at risk and dropouts. Drugs. Aniyim. Financial scandals. Almonos and yesomim. Cholim. And yes, geirus. If it is a huge problem, the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, the OU, RCA, National Council of Young Israel and many others can come together, like they do when it comes to pleas to pardon Jonathan Pollard or with the kashrus matzav and call out to all rabbonim, dayanim, roshei yeshiva, roshei kollel, poskim to the Oilem HaTorah and to all Orthodox Jews warning them of a danger.

    A while back, in about the year 2000, Rav Eliashiv tried a different track, in the light of all the Russian goyim that came flooding into Israel he called for the radical step of opening once and for all a SEFER YUCHSIN also part of Rav Kreisorth's campaign against false geirus. (but it was ignored, especially by the pragmatic American Agudists.) Here is a report about that effort at the time from:

    http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives/BOayuchsn.htm

    "5 Shevat 5760 - January 12, 2000

    News

    Knesset Committee Discusses the Need for Sifrei Yuchsin

    by Eliezer Rauchberger

    "I am in possession of statistics indicating that 80% of the immigrants arriving in Israel today, are not Jewish," UTJ MK Rabbi Shmuel Halpert warned, members of the Knesset Aliya and Absorption committee.

    The committee had convened to discuss the possibility that a sefer yuchsin would have to be opened.

    The issue was raised by MK Yossi Paritzki (Shinui).

    The proposal resulted from the tremendous impact made by a statement from maranan verabonon on the urgent need for lineage records, due to the huge increase of non-Jews immigrating from the C.I.S.

    Currently, the practical aspects of expanding the sifrei yuchsin project -- which was started about two years ago - - are being examined and the idea is gaining impetus.


    It is noteworthy that secular groups and non-religious public bodies, who want their progeny to remain Jews, are showing great interest in the possibility.

    Rabbi Halpert also said, that he has information that of 100 children who immigrated within the framework of the Naaleh plan, only two were Jews. He said that the problem isn't only religious, but also a national one of the utmost importance, which is threatening the Jewish character of the State of Israel.

    In his opinion, records in lineage books will take place whether one likes it or not, due to the dangers posed by non- Orthodox movements and the massive non-Jewish immigration. According to the spokesman for the Vaad Horabbonim Haolami Leinyonei Giyur headed by HaRav Chaim Kreiswirth, the original organizers of the sefer yuchsin project, the problem is intensified since the Israeli Chief Rabbinate has not taken proper measures to compile a complete and clear list of the non-Jews and false converts in Israel.

    Minister Michael Melchior admitted that 55 percent of the immigrants in recent years are non-Jews, and that 10% of them are grandchildren of Jews and immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return. According to the information of the Vaad, the percentage of current non-Jewish immigrants is around 80%.

    "An increasingly large part of them have absolutely no affinity to even the broadest definition of Judaism," Melchior said. He said that he supports the change of the Law of Return in order to limit the non-Jewish immigration, adding that there is no reason to regard this law as one which cannot be changed.

    Along with this, Minister Melchior reiterated his support for conversion institutes which will operate together with the Reform and Conservative movements, and said that these institutes should be established both in Israel and the C.I.S.

    The Conservative representative who participated in the committee meeting congratulated Melchior for his plans to expand the conversion activities and the institutes.

    Benny Ish Shalom, the head of these institutes, said that they are receiving broad government support, and reported that there is a plan to establish 100 such institutions in Israel and abroad.

    Maranan verabonon, gedolei Yisroel vehemently oppose the founding of institutes which collaborate with the Reform and the Conservative movements or any form of collaboration with these heretical movements. At the request of the Vaad and Yated, the Israeli Chief Rabbinate issued an official statement reiterating their position prohibiting any cooperation with the Conservative and Reform, and disqualifying them from taking any part in the conversion process.

    All of the prominent rabbonim in Israel, including those of Shas and the NRP, also sharply oppose such collaboration.

    MK Yitzchak Gagula (Shas) said that since there are hundreds of thousands of non-Jewish immigrants in the country, there is no alternative but to establish a data base of the Jews in the country, in order to prevent mixed marriages.

    The chairman of the committee, Naomi Blumenthal (Likud) claimed that the establishing of such a lineage database will create class A Jews and class B Jews. "That is a disturbing thought," she said.

    She admitted that the likelihood of massive intermarriage is indeed high due to the hundreds of thousands of non-Jews who immigrate to Israel from the C.I.S. She said that there is no choice but to change the Law of Return in order to restrict the non-Jewish immigration to Israel.

    In another development United Torah Judaism MK Rabbi Avrohom Ravitz introduced a bill aimed at tightening up immigration laws, only to withdraw it a few minutes later.

    Similar to a bill presented by Nachum Langental (National Religious Party), Rabbi Ravitz was calling for the abolition of the section of the law which allows the non-Jewish grandchildren of Jews to immigrate.

    All religious MKs are backing the change, with signs that an increasing number of other MKs are also falling in line with the idea, given that an excess of 200,000 new immigrants are said to be non-Jewish.

    Secular MKs are launching a fight against such proposals. Democratic Choice leader Roman Bronfman obtained the signatures of 25 MKs on a letter he sent to Prime Minister Ehud Barak arguing against any changes to the law.

    Rabbi Ravitz said he decided to withdraw his bill for several reasons: he decided at the last minute it was better not to quickly pass the reform through the Knesset without a broad political consensus; several supporters got what he called cold feet just before the vote; the government and Knesset Immigration, Absorption, and Diaspora Committee chairwoman Naomi Blumenthal both asked him to work on the issue with them.

    Though Bronfman applauded the withdrawal of the law, he noted that 51 percent of Jews in the U.S., Canada, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus are now marrying gentiles.

    A day earlier MK Nachum Langental (National Religious Party) introduced a private member's bill in the Knesset calling for the repeal of the "grandchild" section of the Law of Return. The reason this section was included in the original law was to offer a home to all those persecuted for their links to Judaism, said Langental.

    Today such threats do not exist, he added, but because this paragraph remains, hundreds of thousands of non-Jews have been able to enter the country in recent years.

    The change he is proposing is that only Jews or their children would be entitled to immigrate.

    According to the Jerusalem Post, Minister Michael Melchior, responsible for Diaspora affairs, and Interior Minister Natan Sharansky are also working on a plan to tighten immigration laws.

    One of their main proposals is likely to be in line with that proposed by Langental.

    According to Melchior, in private conversations Barak has displayed a flexible approach.

    MKs from seven factions called on Barak to retain the status quo in the Law of Return led by Roman Bronfman (Democratic Choice). The MKs have been joined in their call by 16 former Prisoners of Zion and refuseniks.

    The feeling among those politicians who work closest with American Jewry is that there would be an uproar should the law be changed.

    On the other hand, it seems there is a move among many MKs from the former Soviet Union that the time has come "to ensure the Jewish nature of the state" by preventing an additional influx of immigrants whose Jewishness is questionable."

    And see http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5760/yisro/yeliashi.htm

    "19 Shevat 5760 - January 26, 2000

    News

    Secular Criticism Of Maran Rav Eliashiv Rejected

    by Yated Ne'eman Staff

    United Torah Judaism MK Rabbi Moshe Gafni has called for a Knesset debate on whether the State Prosecutor Edna Arbel can continue in office after she publicly spoke out against posek hador, Maran Hagaon HaRav Yosef Sholom Elishaiv, shlita.

    Arbel attacked HaRav Eliashiv's criticism of the High Court, claiming that his remarks had "an element of violence about them."

    In a letter to the Knesset Speaker Avraham Burg, Rabbi Gafni wrote that "such criticism, and far worse, has been made for years by various public figures, legal experts, former Supreme Court judges, ministers and MKs.

    However, currently there is a disconcerting and serious trend to silence Rabbonim and morei hora'ah.

    "The unbridled attack on Maran HaRav Eliashiv, who is the supreme halachic authority of Jews the world over, constitutes an inexcusable affront to those Jews, and marks the imminence of the end of the democratic era in Israel.

    "However, this past Thursday (13 Shevat), something far more serious occurred when the State Prosecutor, whose function is purely professional-judicial, said that Maran HaRav Eliashiv's remarks contain an `element of violence.'

    "Who sent her to try and undermine the honor of such a large segment of the community, which heeds his authority? Who appointed her to interfere in such a controversial public issue? What motivates her to undermine, in so acerbic a manner, the elemental right of freedom of expression?"

    Rabbi Gafni also sent a letter to Environment Minister Daliah Itzik, who attacked the idea of sifrei yuchsin. Itzik's claim was that the idea was "racist in its essence."

    "Maran, the gaon HaRav Eliashv, shlita, spoke about the need to organize geneological records in which every Jew will be registered in an organized manner.

    "The reasons he feels this is necessary are: a) the State of Israel and the offices responsible for this issue have failed in these registrations, b) the number of non-Jews who have immigrated to the country is escalating, c) the High Court rulings on this issue which contradict the halacho.


    "I was shocked to hear your attack in the media, as part of your attempt to offend a large section of Israeli and worldwide Jewry which heeds the authority of HaRav Eliashiv, and your attempt to undermine the Jewish and democratic identity of the State of Israel, and the elementary right of freedom of expression. "You did all this even before you examined the issue at hand."

    The secular officials were reacting to remarks HaRav Eliashiv made to the Am Echod delegation, which visited his home last week.

    During a meeting with the group, HaRav Eliashiv stressed the urgent need to raise the issue of genealogical records on the public agenda, and to take practical measures to implement a plan to start registration in a sefer yuchsin.

    Yated Neeman's front page report on the issue last week prompted a wave of reaction in the secular media, which bandied the issue in its news broadcasts and news summaries throughout the entire day.

    Other political figures and journalists joined the outspoken criticism. Rabbonim and chareidi activists added that the anger against the idea of a sefer yuchsin indicates a total ignorance on this issue. The genealogical record will not differentiate between Jews (only between Jews and non- Jews) and its sole purpose is to prevent intermarriages, caused by the specious recording of non-Jews as Jews, a phenomenon which should worry all Jews.

    All circles of chareidi Jewry are of the firm opinion that the dangerous objective of silencing daas Torah and dvar halocho must be curbed.

    It is inconceivable that maranan gedolei Yisroel, in their deep concern for klal Yisroel be prevented from expressing daas Torah on issues of utmost importance to the Jewish Nation."

    If Rabbi Tropper wants a real job let him campaign for the Sefer Yuchisn idea and project and let him convince Dr. Tom Kapaln to pay for and help devise a foolproof system to keep all these vital records of and for Klal Yisroel instead of working to bring geirim through the cracks via EJF and it will finally put those like Rabbi Bomzer and others who may issuing lenient conversions on notice and that they are wasting their time and that Klal Yisroel will not be fooled and that they are being monitered and the names of all halachic Jews are in one safe and reliable data base.

    ReplyDelete
  5. "...such as that noone on this blog has expressed any real connection or liking or approval of what Rabbi Bomzer or any rabbis like him have been doing..".

    *You* have! and strongly!!

    "Personally, my take on that situation was that when one Bais Din negates another Bais Din, even if it be a "lower" one without more due process (Rav Drukman was not even asked to come and present his position in full and defgend himself, so it had kind of a kangaroo court/lynch mob sensation)",

    You are now a Rabbi and Possek too!
    You know all relevant Halachos and read the deicsion and are able to rebut the *Hahalchik* points which necessitated Rav Sherman to take a strong stand!

    Btw: Since you quote Vaad Harabonim LEinyoney Giyur, do you know what *they* think of Rav Druckmans decision and of those who attacked Rav Druckman?

    And there have been heavy criticisms on this blog of Chabad and its perceived leniencies with baalei teshuva and conversions, and complaints against the loopholes that kiruv workers in Aish HaHatorah and in the Modern Orthodox world give themselves such as Rabbi Gedalia Scwartz of Chicago's Bais Din, with accepting converts. So EJF is not an exception, but because with the help of Dr. Tom Kaplan's Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation, for about the last four years EJF has launched a multi-million drive to "get noticed" and put itself and Rabbi Tropper at the "center of the conversion world" it cannot turn around, as Roni/roni does here and cry foul that wha-wha, why are you picking on EJF and Rabbi Tropper only, when EJF and Rabbi Tropper has only itself to blame for getting itself noticed with it's need for high profiling itself and its activititie"s.

    It is the other way around Publicity: YOu cannot go on the attack on Rt when you have all the above groups bringing goyim into klal yisroel without any kabalat hamitzvot and you attack RT when all he does (in prinicple) is establish batey dinim that will enhance the standards that RAbbis like RHB who convert without ANY KAbbalat Hamitzvot stop converting and others can you use better avenues. When you fail to do so, it is obvious that you belong to one of the aforementioned groups who have been heavily criticized for their leniencies and instead of fixing their problems find common ground with another foe of EJF to attack those who aroused the concioussness of the RAbbonim to stop the malady of fake conversions and of brigning goyim into klal yisroel.

    Yes no one has monopoly over a mtizvah. And everyone must fix their ways where they are lacking especially in areas where they bring disaster to klal yisroel when they bring into the jewish nation goyim!

    "raP: This is nonsense. Yiddishkeit does not need "organizations" it has far too many already. There is no mitzvah to create organizations which are totally alien and goyish concepts'.

    There is a need for an organization to form an union of rabbis who will strnghen each other to stem the ways of fake conversion, of haarama and gnevat daat of kal yisroel, of brining goyim into klal yisroel. This is no different than any iggud or group that bands together for chizuk shitah or any other mitzvah.


    The fact remains that some Rabbis from RCA, Yu, Charedi Rabbis saw the need for this organization. No other than HaRav Hershel Schechter (who walked out on him) felt the great need for this organization. I heard him say this. And so did other great Talmidey Chachamim and RAbbonim and choshuver posskim whom you so disdain for they probably raiseed concerns with someo conversions of some of the organizations mentioned earlier by you. No one besides Edah Hachredis condemned it. And obviously folowing the logic publicity offered in other of his rampages against RT, if he would be consistent, he would really claim that they are not kiruv experts and are not in the feild to be able to deal with question (as this writer so disrespectfully spoke about Rav Wosner who btw has one the dayanim of his talmidim muvhakim who consult with him participate in these conventions (Rav Stern), but all of sudden he finds himself allies with them because they happend to attack the person who set an organization who raised concerns about phony practices that rallied the call of hundreds of rabbonim in his side.

    While Rav Eisenstein is still cautious about RT he still attended the last convention.


    " He has no shimush in practical rabbonus, only in making young guys very yeshivishly frum since he has been a kiruv worker and head of a very small kiruv yeshiva all his life".

    And so are the many organizations you mentioned earlier! who have no shimush whatsoever in real Halacha (while they do valuable kiruv work) and they should not be allowed to flex their muscles to bring goyim into klal yisroel when the prospect is not willing to keep torah and mtizvot for different reasons (some for $$$ some for good itnetions but they are not ready to become part of klal yisroel as they have no kabbalat mitzvot whatsoever) so RT's organization serves the very useful purpose of calling attention to raise those standards and to stem the tide of those phony and fake practices.


    The only thing to point out is that a)there may be an ulterior motive,"

    "RaP: Like what"

    Like thepone you mentioned earlier: That RT's raised attention to one fake gerussen made by one of the organizations you mentioned earlier and as revenge for his showing the real maladies you will show (in cotnrdictory irrational rampages) how RT's is the worse evil in society!


    b) that there is a need for an organization such an ejf, partially to stem the tie of decades where rabbis made conversions without any kabalat hamitzvot,"

    "RaP: Yes, and it is called VAAD HORABBONIM HAOLAMI LEINYONEI GIYUR http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/vaad.htm backed 100% by Rav Eliashiv shlit"a and it is headed by Rav Nochum Eisenstein in Israel'.

    Funny, that Rav Eisenstein though and thinks that there is a NEED FOR SUCH AN ORGANIZATION! and he so stated publicly and has stated so in the name of Harav Elyashiv! and went to every single convention! So he and the Rabbis he is under! and the rabbis that align with RE agree that there is a need for an organization like RT's. They haveen't given the cirticism of Rav Sternnbuch showing that they do not oppose the organization in principle! The reason they may not be such buddies now maybe more to different approaches (like RE's statements about kashrut of certain dayanim and about concerns of RE about Rt -some of which I do agree that they may be legitimate-) but certainly RE disagrees with your irrational position and thinks that such an organization is of the utmost importance and he hoped(s) to work with it hand in hand unlike your false misinformation about RE's position about Rt's organization and it's need. So too, RAv Shechter stated strongly (unlike your irrational position) on the strong need for such an organization and I heard it from *his* mouth at the first convention.

    "RaP: Yes, and Rav Kreiswirth ztk"l of Belgium saw the need as deeply BEFORE Dr. Tom Kaplan and Rabbi Tropper, and that is why he created VAAD HORABBONIM HAOLAMI LEINYONEI GIYUR, and with it set up a full Bais Din Leinyanei Giur (a step even Rabbi Tropper and EJF had NO power or ability to do) and appointed Rav Nochum Eisenstein to head it as one of its Dayanim and leading spokesman, ALL with the knowledge, input and blessings of Rav Eliashiv, approximately about five years BEFORE Rabbi Tropper and EJF came on the scene".

    And it was precisely RE! who from day one worked hand in hand with RT' with the advice and guidance and blessing of Rav Elyashiv to establish this organzation and they would work together to establish Batey Dinim! RE's help set up Batey Dinim for EJF! HOw can you twist and distort fact to suit your irational rampage and falseposition to the public? (how much is stake for you that you need to make so many disotrtions?)

    ) And obviosly there are some rabis who were known to havfe made a joke about the bu$$iness of covnersion."

    "RaP: This is not new and it it to be found everywhere. But so far Rabbi Tropper has not proven that he can make things any better by ruinning around and screaming at rabbis, dayanim and prospective geirim. He is not the man for this job'.

    Until recently his organization managed to work hand in hand with RAv Eisenstein the expert in these issues who helped set up the Batey Dinim in many areas, Batey Dinim that do not convert without Kabbalat Hamitsvot! They have done a better job than HB any day!

    ) since you attack RT and the ROshey Yeshivot that align with them so personal and with such ugly colors and with such contradictory positions (on the side of your mouth you talk them being "frummer" and on the other side of your mouth you talk about them being lening in proseltyzing mass conversions and on the third side of your mouth you attack all choshuver RY and Rabbonmi who support them, for all thesereasons it is important to present at least one of the rabbis which RT's organization came to fix his ruins of destruction."

    "RaP: When a bachur goes to a yeshiva he is told to look at all the sides of a sugya. There is not only "one side" when there are twelve rishonim, twenty acaharonim, and multiple meforshim and teshuvos all on one sugya. So you don't even sound like a ben Torah when you call on a person you disagree with to shut up because they see at least three sides to a picture that has dozeens if not hundreds of angles to it. Grow up".

    Looking at all "sides of the sugya" does not mean calling Rabbis as "money fressers" and disrespecting a Rosh Yeshiva like Rav REuven as you did. Talk about the conduct of "ben torah"! who does not know the alef bet of Kovod hatorah!



    "What kind of bobba maysses are you hacking? There is no greater haskamah than actual participation in these convetions! Rav REuven goes to all these sessions!!"

    "RaP: Ok. Ask Dr. Eidensohn if he will accept that. But you know you are wrong and you are evading an important issue. Would a shull hire a rabbi without an official semicha, even if they claimed they learned in Rabbi Reuven or Dovid Feinstein's yeshiva for twenty years? Let's say someone claims to be a rabbi but even after being begged a hundred times cannot produce any sort of semicha (unless he is of the caliber of the Chazon Ish and please don't tell us you think that Rabbi Tropper is on the madreigah of the Chazon Ish or of any other gadol!) or even a simple letter of recommendation from a well known senior rabbi, and then people, are told, in fact the whole world is told, that that rabbi without any documentation is the "official rabbi" would the fact that he comes to shull three times a year prove that he is an official rabbi and that what the shull does in his name (like accepting people to a conversion program it advertises all over the world) is 100% ok? In the world we live in, every simple ballebus knows that you need to prove your status and position with written haskomes and credentials, especially in something as serious as converting gentiles. Sure, Rabbi Tropper for himself personally does not need Rav Reuven Feinstein to sign anything for Dr. Tom Kaplan to give funding in the millions but it is the WORLD that now needs to be satisfied and the world is not Rabbi Tropper's private plaything. The world gets no money from Dr. Tom Kaplan and the world is asking for Rabbi Tropper to come up with something written from Rav Reuven Feinstein preferably with Rav Dovid Feinstein as well, not just with PR photos of rabbis sitting on a dais (rabbis go to wedding, asifas, and dinners and sit on a dais very often and it proves little except that they bothered to show up in spite of their busy schedules.)"

    Such krummer svoross I never heard a ben torah who toiled a few days on a daf gemoroh hacking such a tchaynick! Rav REuven does not go the "dinner"S to fress; he participates in the confenrences and talks about the issues discussed in the conferences and his shiurim on the matter are discussed amongst many other rabbonim who dscuss these issues in *halachik* terms and they come up with *halachik* maskanot! ?IT so happens that Such and such a sponsor arranged for these rabbis to meet. But they met and discussed halacha and practice for enahncement of the state giyur and about stoppoing fake giyur and about helping those who seeking it genuinely! These are all halachik matters and they are discussed in such terms.

    And for you to continue on your irrational attacks of Rav Resuven on these "dinners" just speaks volumes about your "Ben torah" level.

    Imagine Ou convention or Chabad convention where many rabbis come together to discuss halachik and kiruv matters. and they have a sponsor for these conventions are you going to go bezerk that these rabbis are all gathering for dinner fressing or photo OP sponsored by this or that sponsor??

    Listen: At these conventions *RAbbis* and *posskim* and *Dayanim* like Rav Shechter in the past, Rav Ehrentrau from london, Rav Stern from RAv Wosner's Beyt Din, RAv Eisenstein from Vad giyur Olami (and many others that put to shame the "RHB" in torah and practice) Rav Ezrachi, RAv Kook from REchovot come to dicuss Halacha and practice at these conventions and you talk about the "Dinners"?

    "RaP: No! I never received a penny from anyone connected to Rabbi Bomzer. I have never approved of any false conversions. I fight them."

    You do *not* You hailed RHB! You accused RT of a fke conversion when HB WAS the one involved! (for shame).


    "and you still have not answered if Rabbi Reuven Feinstein and his instititions have ever received funding through their associations with Rabbi Tropper and mutual financial backers that they may have?"

    A mechutzaf accusing a Rosh Yeshiva for accepting backing for their yeshiva, so that his position and support for the organization is based on monetray gains?!? what chutzpah! Like many people go different convetions and get certain backing from certain donors (who some of them may also not be squeaky clean) and therefore when they support the positive drives of their convention makes their drive passul!!??? Rav Reuven supoorts it, Rav Eisensstein supports the need, Rav Hershel Shcehter supports the need, and so do many other great posskim and other dayanim. They have greater knowlege adn smicha and practice than RHB and all his like cronies put together!

    Whether your new idea (yuchassin) is good or not is something that Gedoyley yisroel disagree about about. But if you so beleive fight for it! Don't disparage others who find another avenue to be the appropriate one!! You think otherwise use all means to make your avenue be accepted in Klal Yisroel. But don't misinform people about the opinion of other gedoylely yisroel and espcially about their motivation!

    ReplyDelete
  6. Recipients and PublicityDecember 16, 2008 at 6:08 AM

    Admissions of failure from the Rabbi Tropper/EJF camp.

    The post below to which I respond in detail to poster Roni/Roni who is obviously well versed and connected to the Rabbi Tropper/EJF people and may even be Rabbi Tropper himself finally answering, is revealing that for the first time they are actually facing up to and owning up in public that:

    1) They lost the support of Rabbi Herschel Shechter of YU and with him that of the YU/RCA/Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist rabbinate.

    2) That Rabbi Shternbuch and the the BADATZ of the Eidah Hachareidis is in full unequivical opposition to them.

    3) That their former public alliance with Rabbi Nochum Eisenstien and his Va'd Ha'Olami LeInyanie Giur and its rabbis have gone their own way and do not wish to be formally connected with them.

    There are more implications to be derived but the above are the main ones for now and I have placed them in bold within the post below for emphasis and easier reference.

    Here is my response:

    Roni said... "...such as that noone on this blog has expressed any real connection or liking or approval of what Rabbi Bomzer or any rabbis like him have been doing..".
    *You* have! and strongly!!"

    RaP: You are getting carried away again. Sorry but I cannot agree with your implication that Rabbi Bomzer is some sort of "rosha gamur" and that Rabbi Tropper is a "tzadik gamur" when the truth is that they are not much different from each other because anyone who is involved in the geirus business is automatically controversial and in trouble.

    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. However, it is not crazy or irrational to note that Rabbi Bomzer is a respected and experienced rabbi in the Young Israel movement and that it is well known that he received the strongest backing and public praise from the late Lubavitcher Rebbe.

    And I will repeat, every job has its occupational hazards and any rov involved with being megayer people over a long time will UNFORTUNATELY be able to admit that many of his former convertees did not stay with the program of Yiddishkeit, but that does not mean that the rabbi who did the conversions was lechatchila a "rosh gomur" and Rabbi Tropper should take a mussar haskel from this situation and stay out of this blotte and minefield because he will only get hurt in trying to do it on a mass scale.

    While Rabbi Bomzer does not have the luxury of throwing money AT goyim to lure them to convert (that is Rabbi Tropper's specialty) Rabbi Bomzer, according to you, takes a hefty fee from prospective geirim. Now I do not know which is morally worse and both situations sound morally compromising. But it's fun to watch you try to make me out to be a Rabbi Bomzer "chosid" when I don't even know the man and I have zero shaychos (or grudges) against him.

    "You are now a Rabbi and Possek too! You know all relevant Halachos and read the deicsion and are able to rebut the *Hahalchik* points which necessitated Rav Sherman to take a strong stand!"

    RaP: No, I am just a blogger in cyberspace and you are being silly that only a posek is entitled to have an opinion and everyone else must just shut up. If you were not to take sides and just look at the situation, even if you agree with Rav Sherman 100%, you must still require that Rav Drukman who is a respectable rov (not the piece of drek your are implying he is) should also have been allowed to have his day in court and not shot down as if by a halachik assassination and summary execution.

    You see that is what the Koztker maybe meant when he said that "A frummer iz a rotzeiach" and in a world of justice (not the Middle East of course) they say that "justice must not only be done, it must alos BE SEEN to be done" if you know what that means.

    So sure Rav Sherman may be the greatest posek but he is still NOT potur from acting like a mentsch especially towards another respectable rosh yeshiva and rov like Rav Drukma. And no, I am not a Mizracist or Religious Zionist but I believe that being Charedi does not mean you have a license to destroy other people on sight.

    "Btw: Since you quote Vaad Harabonim LEinyoney Giyur, do you know what *they* think of Rav Druckmans decision and of those who attacked Rav Druckman?"

    RaP: Yes, I do. So what? This is a broad ranging discussion of the issues in cyberspace and we are not here to take sides as if Pinchas or Matisyahu had just dropped in screaming "mi LaShem eilai".

    "It is the other way around Publicity: YOu cannot go on the attack on Rt when you have all the above groups bringing goyim into klal yisroel without any kabalat hamitzvot and you attack RT when all he does (in prinicple) is establish batey dinim that will enhance the standards that RAbbis like RHB who convert without ANY KAbbalat Hamitzvot stop converting and others can you use better avenues. When you fail to do so, it is obvious that you belong to one of the aforementioned groups who have been heavily criticized for their leniencies and instead of fixing their problems find common ground with another foe of EJF to attack those who aroused the concioussness of the RAbbonim to stop the malady of fake conversions and of brigning goyim into klal yisroel."

    RaP: They are wrong and Rabbi Tropper is wrong for trying to bring in goyim into Klal Yisroel, get that through your head. But that does not mean one cannot look at and weigh all the other activities. I have written why the situation is such that now the "golden age of kiruv" is basically over and why every kiruv group is struggling with this problem.

    The problem is that Rabbi Tropper and EJF have launched a multi-million PR campaign and are throwing millions for conventions that has brought about a response and a discussion on this blog by Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah. You cannot fall back on the old illogical claim that two wrongs make a right and that just because everyone else is doing the wrong thing that Rabbi Tropper and EJF now have the right to do it as well.

    "Yes no one has monopoly over a mtizvah. And everyone must fix their ways where they are lacking especially in areas where they bring disaster to klal yisroel when they bring into the jewish nation goyim!"

    RaP: And Rabbi Tropper's new solution of mass conversions assisted by EJF is not the solution. It is better to slam the door shut and to say that conversion time is over and that only the best of the best true geirei tzedek will be allowed to be megayer and everyone else must be written into a book of yuchsin (starting in Israel) that will identify all those who are Halachik Jews since there is no chance you are ever going to convince anywhere from 300,000-600,000 Russian goyim in Israel to convert Halachically even if you invited each one to ten EJF dinners, they don't care about Yiddisheit or about Rabbi Tropper or about EJF or any rabbis, get that through your head.

    "There is a need for an organization to form an union of rabbis who will strnghen each other to stem the ways of fake conversion, of haarama and gnevat daat of kal yisroel, of brining goyim into klal yisroel. This is no different than any iggud or group that bands together for chizuk shitah or any other mitzvah."

    RaP: We already have Agudas Yisroel, Degel HaTorah, and all sorts of Rebbes and Rosh Yeshivas and poskim and rabbinates, let them deal with it, organizations will help nothing. They are fun but they will NOT solve problems because the Haredi and Hasidic world is organized like an oligarchy and all decisions are made centrally by the big guns like the Rebbes and the Rosh Yeshivas and they can influence dayanim and batei din if they united and spoke with one voice.

    "The fact remains that some Rabbis from RCA, Yu, Charedi Rabbis saw the need for this organization. No other than HaRav Hershel Schechter (who walked out on him) felt the great need for this organization. I heard him say this."

    RaP: Finally an admission on this blog that Rav Herschel Schechter of YU "who walked out on him" which Rabbi Tropper tried to obfuscate and finesse to no avail.

    So then, that was then and this is now, as they say, and it means that Rabbi tropper and EJF are functioning minus the YU/RCA/Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist world which has gone its way. And that in turn means that there are clear cut different approaches to the issue of geirus that the YU/RCA/Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist crowd will solve in one way by THEIR standrds and rabbis and batei din and that the Haredim will be left to work on their own their way and hopefully each will get along and not treat each other like dirt. (Hopefully the mashiach will come to make this happen...)

    "And so did other great Talmidey Chachamim and RAbbonim and choshuver posskim whom you so disdain for they probably raiseed concerns with someo conversions of some of the organizations mentioned earlier by you."

    RaP: Sure, ok, it was an exciting and noble idea, but the problem is noone wants to be beholden to a Rabbi Tropper dictatorship of geirus. If he was more of a diplomat he could maybe have become the "Moshe Sherer of geirus" but at this rate he is becoming the Koztker's "Frummer iz a rotzeach of geirus" and it's scary to watch as it unfolds and self-destructs.

    "No one besides Edah Hachredis condemned it. And obviously folowing the logic publicity offered in other of his rampages against RT, if he would be consistent, he would really claim that they are not kiruv experts and are not in the feild to be able to deal with question"

    RaP: Yet another admission of the opposition to EJF from the Eidah HaChareidis, and their powerful BADATZ Bais Din: "No one besides Edah Hachredis condemned it"

    The fact that Rav Shternbuch and the Eidah HaChareidis got involved at all is highly unusual and you cannot dismiss it with a wave here. Why did they go to such an extraordinary step in getting involved with this subject when they have many issues to deal with?

    And they spoke out against Rav Tropper who is from the Charedi camp, so it has double meaning. It is serious.

    And no, this has nothing to do with kiruv but the underlying issue was geirus and not "kiruv" because kiruv by definition means kiruv to a Halachic Jew but when you are trying to convince a goy to become a yid that is NOT "kiruv" it is called PR or to PROSELYTISE and for 2000 years or more Yiddishkeit forbids such activities especially when done en masse as Rabbi Tropper and EJF propose to do.

    So they were attacking efforts to try to do mass false geirus and it has nothing to do with kiruv which is about trying to make secular JEWS, who are 100% Halachically Jewish, into shomrei Torah umitzvos.

    "(as this writer so disrespectfully spoke about Rav Wosner who btw has one the dayanim of his talmidim muvhakim who consult with him participate in these conventions (Rav Stern), but all of sudden he finds himself allies with them because they happend to attack the person who set an organization who raised concerns about phony practices that rallied the call of hundreds of rabbonim in his side."

    RaP: I'm not sure what this mumbo-jumbo is about. Rav Wosner is a fine gadol but he knows nothing about kiruv just like he knows nothing about many subjects. Sure feel free to get pesakim from him if it suits you, it's a free world, and you may as well go over to the Satmer Rebbes or to the Brisker Rosh Yeshivas who are all gedolim and start asking them kiruv shaylos and hear all the chumras they will tell you.

    NOT all poskim are equal and not all poskim are consulted in the same way about all shaylos. A posek is not a kishuf macher oracle that answers like a goilem on anything like a slot machine that you put quarters into and get a chinese cookie answer from! One must have derech eretz and use sechel and not put the posek into a position forcing him to answer contrived shaylos that YOU/Rabbi Tropper has already decided in any case and the gadol is just needed for his rubber stamp approval and name to a pre-organized agenda.

    Does Rabbi Tropper think that people are so stupid and gullible that they don't see through all his kuntzim by now (and he does kuntzim very frequently, unfortunately, ask the people who are upset at him for how he bagrobbed the zoo Rabbi Slifkin.)

    In America, where kiruv work is much more advanced and developed than in Israel (America was the home of kiruv) there are already MESORAS of what to do and not do and what works and what does not work. But that has nothing to do with wanting to be megayer thousands of goyim which is what the BADATZ was worried about.

    "While Rav Eisenstein is still cautious about RT he still attended the last convention."

    RaP: Ah finally another good admission, that "While Rav Eisenstein is still cautious about RT" that the two are not getting along!

    "And so are the many organizations you mentioned earlier! who have no shimush whatsoever in real Halacha (while they do valuable kiruv work) and they should not be allowed to flex their muscles to bring goyim into klal yisroel when the prospect is not willing to keep torah and mtizvot for different reasons (some for $$$ some for good itnetions but they are not ready to become part of klal yisroel as they have no kabbalat mitzvot whatsoever) so RT's organization serves the very useful purpose of calling attention to raise those standards and to stem the tide of those phony and fake practices."

    RaP: I agree with you in principle, but Rabbi Tropper is the wrong man for this mission because he has a very angry and vengeful temparament.

    "The only thing to point out is that a)there may be an ulterior motive,"
    "RaP: Like what"
    Like thepone you mentioned earlier: That RT's raised attention to one fake gerussen made by one of the organizations you mentioned earlier and as revenge for his showing the real maladies you will show (in cotnrdictory irrational rampages) how RT's is the worse evil in society!"

    RaP: Rabbi Tropper is not evil , he is just misguided and has a serious messianic complex that is pushing him into areas he should stay out of. He should stick to being the rosh yeshiva of Kol Yaakov and stop faking his newfound role as international globetrotting super inquisitor/police inspector of geirus that is making him frustrated and making people who never knew him angery at him for his public temper tantrums as reportedly recently happened at the Prague rabbinic conference.

    "Funny, that Rav Eisenstein though and thinks that there is a NEED FOR SUCH AN ORGANIZATION! and he so stated publicly and has stated so in the name of Harav Elyashiv! and went to every single convention! So he and the Rabbis he is under! and the rabbis that align with RE agree that there is a need for an organization like RT's."

    RaP: That was then, this is now, Sure the idea of it MAY sound helpful, but not when it comes out that EJF is throwing millions at goyim to convince them to become yidden. Who could agree to such a balatantly crazy idea in any case?

    "They haveen't given the cirticism of Rav Sternnbuch showing that they do not oppose the organization in principle!"

    RaP: Yet another admission and a public recognition of Rav Shternbuch's criticism of Rabbi Tropper and EJF by saying "They haveen't given the cirticism of Rav Sternnbuch" this is major progress, to note that you are under fire and that maybe you should recalibrate your goals.

    "The reason they may not be such buddies now maybe more to different approaches (like RE's statements about kashrut of certain dayanim and about concerns of RE about Rt -some of which I do agree that they may be legitimate-)"

    RaP: The above is yet another confirmation and validation that Rav Nochum Eisenstein has parted ways with Rabbi Tropper and EJF when reading The reason they may not be such buddies now maybe more to different approaches (like RE's statements about kashrut of certain dayanim and about concerns of RE about Rt -some of which I do agree that they may be legitimate-)" and even an agreement that Rabbi Eisenstein's position may be "LEGITIMATE"

    But kindly note that I am not accusing poster "Roni" of being "irrational" just because at the very time he is trying to defend Rabbi Tropper's position at great length here AT THE SAME TIME he admits that Rabbi Eisenstein's position has LEGITIMACY. You see roni, one can speak of two opposing views and still not be irrational, it's called the ability to do some dialactical thinking and that not all opposites necessarily negate each other.

    "but certainly RE disagrees with your irrational position and thinks that such an organization is of the utmost importance and he hoped(s) to work with it hand in hand unlike your false misinformation about RE's position about Rt's organization and it's need.

    RaP: What is Rav Eisenstien's position? Has he made it public yet? Many people would like to know. I DO NOT SPEAK FOR HIM OR FOR ANYONE because like you, I am just blogging for fun.

    "So too, RAv Shechter stated strongly (unlike your irrational position) on the strong need for such an organization and I heard it from *his* mouth at the first convention."

    RaP: That was then, this is now. Rabbi Herschel Schechter and his people are totally disgusted with Rabbi Tropper and EJF as far as anyone knows and they have let that be known, so quit quoting stories from the good old days.

    "And it was precisely RE! who from day one worked hand in hand with RT' with the advice and guidance and blessing of Rav Elyashiv to establish this organzation and they would work together to establish Batey Dinim!"

    RaP: I have been reading the Haredi news very carefully for decades now and I know for a fact that Rabbi Eisenstein was chosen by Rav Kreisworth to be his shaliach and that was LONG before Rabbi Tropper got involved. You can see the stories on the Deah Vedibur site and EJF's and Rabbi Tropper's name only start coming up about four maybe five years ago at most, and before that it was Rav Eisenstien who was dealing with these matters.

    Rabbi Tropper is a johny come lately who saw a good opportunity for his own reasons and got involved much later. I am trying to be nice and I hate calling people liars if you know what I mean, but in this case it looks like you are trying to get away with a falsehood that Rabbi Tropper was involved with Rabbi Eisenstein from day one when he was provably not.

    "RE's help set up Batey Dinim for EJF!"

    RaP: Ths has been Rabbi Eisenstein's show from day one and Rabbi Tropper came along later with money from Dr. Tom Kaplan that they thought would be used for strengthening the work of batei din (how exactly to "pay" batei din, is a huge Halachic problem of shochad, you must admit, but that is another discussion) but when Rabbi Tropper got carried away with the whole EJF idea of wasting millions of bucks to feed goyim hitched to Jews in fancy hotels to get them to become Jews that is when it is inconceivable that someone like Rabbi Eisenstien who can't stomach even rabbis with yadin-yadin semichas who wear colored shirts, so how is he going to accepot 100% goyim who wear a lot worse than colored shirts???

    "HOw can you twist and distort fact to suit your irational rampage and falseposition to the public? (how much is stake for you that you need to make so many disotrtions?)"

    RaP: Nothing at stake I asssure you, I am merely a blogger who is having fun. And you need to calm down and not sound like Attila the Hun just because someone says something you despise.

    "Until recently his organization managed to work hand in hand with RAv Eisenstein the expert in these issues who helped set up the Batey Dinim in many areas, Batey Dinim that do not convert without Kabbalat Hamitsvot! They have done a better job than HB any day!"

    RaP: Yet again another major admission that there is a split between Rabbi Tropper and his EJF versus Rav Nochum Eisenstein and his Vaad Ha'olomi, when we read "Until recently his organization managed to work hand in hand with RAv Eisenstein

    All is not well between them, if a huge Rabbi Tropper defender like poster Roni/roni can come to this blog of all places and admit to such matters!

    "Looking at all "sides of the sugya" does not mean calling Rabbis as "money fressers" and disrespecting a Rosh Yeshiva like Rav REuven as you did."

    RaP: I never used that term "money fressers" and please do not put such words into my mouth. To ask questions does not mean to be disrespectful. My rebbeim taught me never to be afraid to ask even the toughest questions, no matter what. You seem to think that any real world questions are a sign of "direspect" and intead of giving answers you just come up with your own worse personal insults. Go figure.

    "Talk about the conduct of "ben torah"! who does not know the alef bet of Kovod hatorah!"

    RaP: EJF is committing a chillul Hashem and in the place of a public, actually international, chillul Hashem what "kovud" do you want? What do think this is, Rabbi Tropper's Kol Yaakov yeshiva? If you can't take the questions or the heat of the discussions then you should get out of the kitchen and the Internet.

    "Such krummer svoross I never heard a ben torah who toiled a few days on a daf gemoroh hacking such a tchaynick!"

    RaP: Whatever. I will let the readership decide and not you because you obviously think that Rabbi Tropper can do no wrong and that he is above any and all criticism, sorry but the world does not work that way. Anyhow I will be UNlike you and I will give you a HUGE compliment that for the first time we are finally hearing, thanks to your admissions all over this post, that Rabbi Tropper and EJF are falling apart and that they know they have been mortally wounded and that they cannot last much longer, especially now that Rabbi Eisenstein is split off from them

    "Rav REuven does not go the "dinner"S to fress; he participates in the confenrences and talks about the issues discussed in the conferences and his shiurim on the matter are discussed amongst many other rabbonim who dscuss these issues in *halachik* terms and they come up with *halachik* maskanot! ?"

    RaP: Yeah, yeah, yeah, avadeh geviss.

    "IT so happens that Such and such a sponsor arranged for these rabbis to meet."

    RaP: Good joke. It is not just anyone who sponsored this, it is a Jewish billionare who may have his own agenda and it seems that Rabbi Tropper has not heard of that great klal "Da'as balabetim keneged da'as Torah" !!!!!!!!!!!!

    "But they met and discussed halacha and practice for enahncement of the state giyur and about stoppoing fake giyur and about helping those who seeking it genuinely! These are all halachik matters and they are discussed in such terms."

    RaP: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gantz fein!

    "And for you to continue on your irrational attacks of Rav Resuven on these "dinners" just speaks volumes about your "Ben torah" level."

    RaP: It's not an attack to ask if he or his yeshiva ever received backing from financial sources that he and Rabbi Tropper are known to have in common.

    You know, as non-profit organizations in the USA their tax returns are public inforamtion. Anyone can request copies of all of Rabbi Feinstein's institutions, all of Rabbi Tropper's organizations and all of Dr. Tom Kaplan and his family's philanthropies, that by law must report who they give to and who they received from and by law it is all available for anyone to request and match up if they wanted to, so stop arguing like an ignorant ranting self-righteous shotteh please.

    Torah hi, velilmod anu tzerichin. Sorry if they don't ask him these kind of questions at the EJF conventions, but consider this a "write in" question.

    "Imagine Ou convention or Chabad convention where many rabbis come together to discuss halachik and kiruv matters. and they have a sponsor for these conventions are you going to go bezerk that these rabbis are all gathering for dinner fressing or photo OP sponsored by this or that sponsor??"

    RaP: The OU is trustworthy and Chabad has been doing kiruv long before Rabbi Tropper was even born. The OU's official rabbinic body is the RCA and Chabad has multiple of its own poskim and batei din. If they make mistakes take it up with them. There is no Bais Din or posek who is infallible (that is a Catholic belief, not a Jewish one) and many of the frummest batei din are not trusted by thousands of ba'alei din and gerushas and agunos because the frum husbands are buying off the batei din. This is known.

    It is not just in geirus and not just Chabad and OU rabbis that have problems but the whole Torah world is in crisis, keyadua, so stop acting and sounding like a complete fool and apologist for Rabbi Tropper at all costs,so that now it is you that is hacking a tshaynik and hacking in kop with shtusim and shekarim of your own.

    "Listen:"

    RaP: I am, attentively, can't you tell?

    "At these conventions *RAbbis* and *posskim* and *Dayanim* like Rav Shechter in the past, Rav Ehrentrau from london, Rav Stern from RAv Wosner's Beyt Din, RAv Eisenstein from Vad giyur Olami (and many others that put to shame the "RHB" in torah and practice) Rav Ezrachi, RAv Kook from REchovot come to dicuss Halacha and practice at these conventions and you talk about the "Dinners"?"

    RaP: Yeah, yeah, yeah, ze'ir gutt!

    "You do *not* You hailed RHB! You accused RT of a fke conversion when HB WAS the one involved! (for shame)."

    RaP: I "hailed" him? What like a "Ceasar" is hailed? Goodness, when did I do that? Just because I pointed out that the man is not evil incarnate and that he cannot be blamed for every last failed geirus, like blaming every last mesader kidushin when the couple eventually gets divorced. Grow up, ok.

    "A mechutzaf accusing a Rosh Yeshiva for accepting backing for their yeshiva, so that his position and support for the organization is based on monetray gains?!? what chutzpah!"

    RaP: You know, I think that if you took a vote, it would be Rabbi Tropper who could win an olympic king size award for being a mechutzif and chutzpahnyak, so forget that tactic.

    A rosh yeshiva is not a god and one can ask any rosh yeshiva any question one likes.

    They may choose to ignore the question and the questioner but it is not a chutzpa to ask good questions as the Kotzker would say "In pupik arein"! Again, cut out the shtik, ok?

    "Like many people go different convetions and get certain backing from certain donors (who some of them may also not be squeaky clean) and therefore when they support the positive drives of their convention makes their drive passul!!???"

    RaP: Now you are getting into hysteria, I wonder why that is? Is it because my question is too close to the main trouble with all of this, the old strategy of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch your back" that only benefits the two back-scratchers and does nothing to help Klal Yisroel in any real way, just increases problems.

    "Rav Reuven supoorts it, Rav Eisensstein supports the need, Rav Hershel Shcehter supports the need, and so do many other great posskim and other dayanim. They have greater knowlege adn smicha and practice than RHB and all his like cronies put together!"

    RaP: Yeah, yeah, yeah, iz doch avadeh gutt!

    "Whether your new idea (yuchassin) is good or not is something that Gedoyley yisroel disagree about about."

    RaP: It's NOT my "NEW" idea, it came directly from Rav Eliashiv who sent his right hand man Rav Efrati all the way to America to BEG the American Agudah to start the work of setting up the data base for the sefer yuchsin since Rav Eliashiv felt it would not be safe in Israel, but they all freaked out and did not do what Rav Eliashiv wanted.

    That is NOT "my idea" those are the facts of what happended about eight years ago and it is still probably the ONLY workable solution, because there is no way in hell you, or Rabbi Tropper or EJF or Rabbi Bomzer and all the people playing games with conversions are ever going to stop and put down the TIDAL WAVE of what will be millions of false converts who want to join Klal Yisroel now during the Ikvase DemeShicha.

    "But if you so beleive fight for it!"

    RaP: I am. I just did.

    "Don't disparage others who find another avenue to be the appropriate one!!"

    RaP: EJF's "solution" of mass proselytizaions and throwing money at goyim like "petals" to entice them to become good little Halachic Jews is never going to work. And what EJF is doing is NOT an "avenue" it's more like a great sink-hole and stumbling block and like any bor bireshus harabbim and bor shenogach, it is not only dangerous but also radioactive with the potential to become a weapon of mass destruction r"l against Klal Yisroel.

    "You think otherwise use all means to make your avenue be accepted in Klal Yisroel."

    RaP: Can you help me get a million from Dr. Tom Kaplan to start work on building the secure data base
    for the sefer yuchsin and to hire the activists to do it? Lehavdil, look how Obama got his ACORN "community orgnizers" to register voters, an he got about 160 million votes in the end, it wouldn't be hard to recruit all the tens of thousand of hungry yeshiva leit to go and do the registration of a mere 6 million Jews in America and another 6 million Jews in Israel and about another 2 million scattered all over the world.

    That's the goal to get the estimated 14 million known Halachic Jews into the data base. It can be done, if the gedolim will have the guts that Rav Eliashiv has and that he expected/expects them to still have!

    "But don't misinform people about the opinion of other gedoylely yisroel and espcially about their motivation!"

    RaP: Yeah, yeah, yeah, tieffe mussar!

    ReplyDelete
  7. RAP unable to address the poimts and all of his lengthy writings manmage to obfuscate and confuse the issues:

    "is revealing that for the first time they are actually facing up to and owning up in public that:"

    I stated from the beginning about possible problems but you go past this. You stated and state that there is no NEED for the organization. all your lengthy dissertations won't obfuscate that the big RAbbis (like RAv Schechter, Rav VOzner, leasding Dayanim in these issues like RAv Eisenstein held and never disputed the NED such anorganization .

    Therefore:
    "1) They lost the support of Rabbi Herschel Shechter of YU and with him that of the YU/RCA/Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist rabbinate".

    IRRELEVANT to the main point that RAv Schechter holds the NEED for such an organization is of the gerreatest import. (he backed out because of position of elements in the other side of the spectrum like RE. But this is IRRELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION).

    "2) That Rabbi Shternbuch and the the BADATZ of the Eidah Hachareidis is in full unequivical opposition to them'.

    tHAT IS THE only RELEVANT boy of opposition in this discussion. Note: that NO ONE besides them in the RAbbinic authority came out against the prinicple of the organization.

    "3) That their former public alliance with Rabbi Nochum Eisenstien and his Va'd Ha'Olami LeInyanie Giur and its rabbis have gone their own way and do not wish to be formally connected with them."


    Again YOUR point is IRRELEVANT to the point under discussion, for RE was and is of the opinion that there is THE greatest need to establish BAtey Dinim and the organization that helps this make it happen. He speaks so in the name of HaRav Elyashiv. His opposition NOW is due to elements of the other side of the spectrum like rabbis of the MO within the organization. But it is not an opposition in *prinicple*.

    Their supoort for such an organization is two pronged one: 1) the need to help those who are already intermarried. This is to help those who are genuinely interested to live a Jewish lfie. *all* the aforementioned RAbbis from RAv Elyashiv to RAv Shechter are in full agreement with this. 2) The ned to stem fake conversions that would go if not for this organization; they would go to convert under rabbis who could not care for kabalat hamitzvot like for instace RHB!

    "RaP: You are getting carried away again. Sorry but I cannot agree with your implication that Rabbi Bomzer is some sort of "rosha gamur" and that Rabbi Tropper is a "tzadik gamur" when the truth is that they are not much different from each other because anyone who is involved in the geirus business is automatically controversial and "

    hogwash bobeh maysses!! to confuse the mases: Troper with all his ills does not LECHATCHILA convert people without kabbalat hamitzvot! Even if they have money! Bomzer, otoh, has a long trach record by many rabonim (including by those who we discussed in the beggining of the thread) CONVERTS LECHATCHILA people without *any* KAbbalat Hatmizvot! This is great difference! Troper may proseltyze but oes not bring goyim to klal yisroel; Bomzer brings GOYIM TO KAL YISROEL. The CR in ISrael has state for years, about ten years ago that his conversions require checking each case on an individual basis!

    Therefore do not obfuscate and misinform: "And I will repeat, every job has its occupational hazards and any rov involved with being megayer people over a long time will UNFORTUNATELY be able to admit that many of his former convertees did not stay with the program of Yiddishkeit...":

    NO, he converts them LECHATCHILA without any kabalat hamitzvot (and for moeny! whenever avaliable)!

    "While Rabbi Bomzer does not have the luxury of throwing money AT goyim to lure them to convert (that is Rabbi Tropper's specialty) Rabbi Bomzer, according to you, takes a hefty fee from prospective geirim."

    AND WITHOUT KABLAAT HAMITZVOT. Hefty fee for ezem conversion may invalidate the gerus!

    " Now I do not know which is morally worse and both situations sound morally compromising".


    Taking money for the gerut itself is WORSE as a ayan that takes money for his services may render the services invalid according to Halacha and SO!

    Btw: Since you quote Vaad Harabonim LEinyoney Giyur, do you know what *they* think of Rav Druckmans decision and of those who attacked Rav Druckman?"

    "RaP: Yes, I do. So what? This is a broad ranging discussion of the issues in cyberspace and we are not here to take sides as if Pinchas or Matisyahu had just dropped in screaming "mi LaShem eilai"

    No, that is relevant to your misinformation about the position of RE an his opposition to RT: He oes NOT OPPOSE the ned for such an organization as he holds that we need to publicly declare those whose conversions without kabbalat hamitzvot to null anbd void and he also holds that there is a ned to create a body that will estrablish batey Dinim that will curtail the usage of the fake conversion rabbis!

    " They are wrong and Rabbi Tropper is wrong for trying to bring in goyim into Klal Yisroel',

    as long as there is no documentation that the Batey inim of T convert without kabalat hamitzvot lechatechila, his BD are 1000,000 better than your phony bomzer's introduction of goyim to kal yisroel.
    "RaP: And Rabbi Tropper's new solution of mass conversions assisted by EJF is not the solution. It is better to slam the door shut and to say that conversion time is over and that only the best of the best true geirei tzedek will be allowed to be megayer..."

    This can only be done if you announce that no one should use BOmzer for conversions; absent that; all your talk is hogwash...

    " and everyone else must be written into a book of yuchsin (starting in Israel) that will identify all those who are Halachik Jews since there is no chance you are ever going to convince anywhere from 300,000-600,000 Russian goyim in Israel to convert Halachically even if you invited each one to ten EJF dinners, they don't care about Yiddisheit or about Rabbi Tropper or about EJF or any rabbis, get that through your head."

    You are talking irrtionally again: Those are not the thereat of an organization like eJf (for accoring to your own admission T will nto convince to come to him so he is not brigning them to klal yisroel); they might be brought to klal yisroel by soemone elese israel which may be leninent an not require kabbalat hamitvot.
    Sefer Hayuchssin is not helpful anyway for these cases for the Rabbis who officiate the weddings (anywhere in the world) should make their own detective work, and Sefer Hayuchssin might be bring many other problems; and most importantly it would not stem the fake conversion by people like HB.


    "And no, this has nothing to do with kiruv but the underlying issue was geirus and not "kiruv" because kiruv by definition means kiruv to a Halachic Jew but when you are trying to convince a goy to become a yid that is NOT "kiruv" ",

    Bobeh mayasssehs! ask your freinds who do kriuv adn they will tell you that there SO MANY people who would like to be niskarev and the impediment is their spouse being non jewish! And that is why *they* summon people like *Herbert Bomzeer* (when they mean leshem shomayim and some/many do!). The person would not be ready to divorce his wife; but would be ready to live jewishly if the wife would live jewishly and converted within the norms of halacha.

    In short it is waste to go through to rebut point by point to each of your lines of reasonings.

    To summarize: 1) The need for such an organization is there NOW according to major leading Rabbonim. (with the opposition of only one rabbnic organization),

    2) the need to eradicate fake conversions and raise councioussnes for those who use rabbis who make fake conversions and to oppose a conversion without kabalat hamitzvot, This need is more important that the need to excoriate T, for T does NOT bring goyim into klal yisroel (unless you will prove that his conversions are done without kablaat hamitzvot) whereas HB does bring goyim to klal yisroel!

    3) Whether or not RT is the proper person this organization I do not know. Time will tell whether your objections are valid and in thte total sum of pros and cons the positive will outwigh or the contrary,

    4) Sefer Hayuchassin: While a good idea on it's own may not deter the prblem of bringing goyim to klal yisroel thtohugh fake conversions. (I have also heard that people say that the Lubavitcher REbbe Zt"l was at end opposing to the idea of Sefer HaYuchassim).

    2) Wh

    ReplyDelete
  8. Recipients and PublicityDecember 18, 2008 at 1:30 PM

    I must thank poster Roni/roni for his excellent response below although I disgree that I am "obfuscating" because this is a lengthy debate with lots of parts to it and at no time am I opposed to discussing any and all points in full. My response is below:

    "roni said... RAP unable to address the poimts and all of his lengthy writings manmage to obfuscate and confuse the issues:"

    RaP: To repeat, there is no obfuscation on my part, if there is anything you wish to draw my or anyone's attention to, feel free to do so, and I will certainly try to respond as best I can. So quit the incorrect carping and stick to the debate please.

    "I stated from the beginning about possible problems but you go past this. You stated and state that there is no NEED for the organization. all your lengthy dissertations won't obfuscate that the big RAbbis (like RAv Schechter, Rav VOzner, leasding Dayanim in these issues like RAv Eisenstein held and never disputed the NED such anorganization."

    RaP: You are over-simplifying and compressing a few YEARS into a few sentences when much has changed over the past few years since the time EJF was launched, when at the start noone knew about it and people came from all over (especially since free tickets and lodgings were given to anyone in kiruv or rabbonus or dayanus to come and eat and enjoy and listen to lectures) and they were not sure what EJF was about and what to expect or not to expect.

    But now the situation, after many different phases, is that EJF has lost the support of the YU/RCA/Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist crowd. EJF and Rabbi Tropper have been attacked and excoriated by Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ/EIDAH and with the Va'ad Ha'olami LeInyanei Giur like in a failing marriage has entered into an official "seperation" period that often precedes outright "divorce" so that from left, right and center, EJF and Rabbi Tropper are under siege and are not in as strong a position as they used to be.

    The ONLY thing that keeps them afloat is Dr. Tom Kaplan's money and NOTHING else. Were he to withdraw his backing then Rabbi Tropper can go back to Monsey NY forever and EJF is just hot air in neverland.

    The question of "the need for such an organization" is debatable because of a few reasons:

    (a) there is no consensus among everyone that an EJF body needs to exist, just as stam an "oragization" unlike Rav Eisenstein who comes as a full Dayan representing his own Bais Din Le'inyanei Giur, which is quite diffrrent than a kind of "EJF global social service center to help geirim get top notch conversions" with no offocial Dayan role for Rabbi Tropper.

    (b) Who says that Rabbi Tropper is the right person for this role when he is clearly not. The only reason he gets this role of EJF chief honcho is because he has a deal with Dr. Tom Kaplan and nothing else. Since when do BT balebatim get to decide who should head any major organization let alone one so crucial devoted to conversion matters?

    (c) Rabbi Tropper is a very tough man. While he may mean well, he tends to alienate many people, including rabbis, dayanim and just about anyone. This is not fiction, just read what others say, so that he should get out of this business and quit while he is ahead and before more rabbis gang up against him to get rid of him. Rabbi Tropper's inherent confrontationalism, while good in kiruv to wake up sleepy-head potential BTs is an undesirable and fatal quality in all the high-level diplomacy he is trying his hand at.

    (d) Most communities and Batei Din have their own mechanisms and systems for dealing with converts and it is impossible to see how EJF could make any realistic improvement that won't be seen as intrusive meddling in local affairs. Rabbi Eisenstien can make his decress alone, he doesn't need Rabbi Tropper to act as his chorus or rival. Just some points.

    "Therefore: "1) They lost the support of Rabbi Herschel Shechter of YU and with him that of the YU/RCA/Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist rabbinate". IRRELEVANT to the main point that RAv Schechter holds the NEED for such an organization is of the gerreatest import. (he backed out because of position of elements in the other side of the spectrum like RE. But this is IRRELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION)."

    RaP: Oh, so now you are deciding that Rav Schchter's backing out is not relevant to EJF? What kind of logic is that? You are citing the reason and claiming that that is not enough for the ongoing split Rav Schechter and his YU/RCA people when it is all one point.

    Yes Rabbi Hershel Schechter was pushed out by Rabbi Eisenstein (by the way, Rabbi Eisenstien is known to hate Modern Orthodoxy with a passion and will look for any excuse to push them out and negate them, so little surprise that he did this via EJF) but the net result, no matter which way you look at it, is that Rabbi Herschel Schechter washed his hands of EJF and Rabbi Tropper once and for all and therefore, regardless of what he thought once upon a time, right now, as far as he is concrned if EJF shut down and Rabbi Tropper went on Social Security he could care less and wouldn't bat an eye. So don't overstate your case please, it's not working.

    "2) That Rabbi Shternbuch and the the BADATZ of the Eidah Hachareidis is in full unequivical opposition to them'. tHAT IS THE only RELEVANT boy of opposition in this discussion. Note: that NO ONE besides them in the RAbbinic authority came out against the prinicple of the organization."

    RaP: Glad to see that yet again you recognize this, but the question is really on Rabbi Tropper, why is Dr. Tom Kaplan's money so prescious and imporatant to him that he must hold onto it at all costs even if the BADATZ says 100% clearly and fully that Rabbi Tropper and EJF are 100% in the wrong and must stop what they are doing and get out of the conversions business, no matter with what reaons they think it is a service they are doing. How could Rabbi Tropper as a strict machmir Charedi talmid chochem and RABBI ignore the BADATZ as if they were shmattes?

    "3) That their former public alliance with Rabbi Nochum Eisenstien and his Va'd Ha'Olami LeInyanie Giur and its rabbis have gone their own way and do not wish to be formally connected with them." Again YOUR point is IRRELEVANT to the point under discussion, for RE was and is of the opinion that there is THE greatest need to establish BAtey Dinim and the organization that helps this make it happen. He speaks so in the name of HaRav Elyashiv. His opposition NOW is due to elements of the other side of the spectrum like rabbis of the MO within the organization. But it is not an opposition in *prinicple*."

    RaP: You keep on mixing up different things. Noone is arguing with Batei Din or with the need to set up Batei Din to deal with conversions. That is NOT the problem and everyone in the Torah world would say it's a wonderful idea. BUT what many rabbonim, like in the BADATZ and in all probability Rav Eisenstien and his Vaad Ha'olami and his Bais Din LeInyanei Giur cannot comprehend why millions of dollars must be spent on PR campaigns and all sorts of conventions and hotels with gourmet meals for goyim just to get them influenced to become safek yidden.

    Why does anybody in Charedi Judaism do this? Perhaps on an individual basis here and there this and that rabbi may have his reasons, but to organize a mass proseltyzation organization like EJF is incomprehensible.

    That is why it is best to put this organization to sleep. Haredim don't need such an organization to do "kiruv to goyim" and with all due respect many of the rabbis in attendance at many EJF affairs come in thinking more about strengthening Batwi Din when the bigger part of EJF's agenda is to work with goyim who want to be Jews which is highly controversial no matter which way you look at it or try to cover it up with all this "improving Batei Din" talk.

    "Their supoort for such an organization is two pronged one: 1) the need to help those who are already intermarried. This is to help those who are genuinely interested to live a Jewish lfie. *all* the aforementioned RAbbis from RAv Elyashiv to RAv Shechter are in full agreement with this."

    RaP: Sounds very suspicious. Are you saying that Rav Eliashiv supports the possible intake of hundreds of thousands of goyim via EJF's "higher standards" mantra? Maybe he means, sure help a few individuals here and there, but to launch a global universal international effort that seeks to become the counterpart of "kibbutz galiyos" but instead will do "kibbuts geirim" instead? Tzarich iyun gadol.

    As for Rav Hershel Schechter and the YU/RCA people they live in their own world and their crowd are the Modern Orthodox Jews and most Haredim and Hasidim have nothing to do with them and cannot influence them.

    "2) The ned to stem fake conversions that would go if not for this organization; they would go to convert under rabbis who could not care for kabalat hamitzvot like for instace RHB!"

    RaP: Right, back to that good old Tropper punching bag, Rabbi Bomzer. Look, I don't know why you or Rabbi Tropper are wasting their time with Rabbi Bomzer. He is a product of the old Young Israel rabbinate and he will not listen to Rabbi Tropper or to what any Charedim tell him. Neither will Rabbi Gedalya Schwartz of the RCA or any of the RCA and YU rabbis. It's like the Chief Rabbinate of Israel that one has to learn to live with them because attacking them 24/7 will get you nowhere.

    If Rabbi Tropper wants to run around the world getting potential converts into Batei Din all then fine, he doesn't need an organization with international conferences to do it. Just like he ran his kiruv programs out of Monsey and Kol Yaakov Yeshiva and Horizons, he can make EJF part of Kol Yaakov and Horizons and do his thing and go visit and chat with a different Bais Din every other day, but why is he dragging in the whole world into his schemes and even creating not needed fights between various groups of rabbis?

    He is looking more like an agent provacateur, a sort of "Haredi Rabbinical Lenin figure" lehavdil out to bring about world revolutions, rather than being a man of love and peace and harmony who wants to foster ahavas Yisroel. There is too much negative energy that surrounds him and its both discomfortting and dangerous, like sparks of static in a tank full of gas fumes waiting to explode ch"v.

    "hogwash bobeh maysses!! to confuse the mases: Troper with all his ills does not LECHATCHILA convert people without kabbalat hamitzvot! Even if they have money! Bomzer, otoh, has a long trach record by many rabonim (including by those who we discussed in the beggining of the thread) CONVERTS LECHATCHILA people without *any* KAbbalat Hatmizvot! This is great difference! Troper may proseltyze but oes not bring goyim to klal yisroel; Bomzer brings GOYIM TO KAL YISROEL. The CR in ISrael has state for years, about ten years ago that his conversions require checking each case on an individual basis!"

    RaP: You know, when you fly off the handle like this one gets the impression that you are Rabbi Tropper himself. What is this crazy obsession with Bomzer. Ok, so he does bad conversions, but as you admit not all of them turn out bad and even the Israeli Chief rabbinate says that each case must be examined on a cases by case basis. That means he is not all bad. And now you even admit that "Troper may proseltyze but oes not bring goyim to klal yisroel which is fascinating because (a) you admit that he is proseltysing and (b) it's a contradiction in logic and sounds very funny, like he's attracting gentiles to Judaism because it's some kind of mitzva when it's not. Methinks Rabbi Tropper has lost himslef in the woods here and it's all of his own making yet he wishes to drag the world into the same dark and confusing woods he's in and he has tantrums and screams when people do not wish to follow him to fall into his self-inflicted sinkholes.

    "Therefore do not obfuscate and misinform: "And I will repeat, every job has its occupational hazards and any rov involved with being megayer people over a long time will UNFORTUNATELY be able to admit that many of his former convertees did not stay with the program of Yiddishkeit...": NO, he converts them LECHATCHILA without any kabalat hamitzvot (and for moeny! whenever avaliable)!"

    RaP: You are screaming again, please tone down. I will repeat: Rabbi Bomzer is wrong and Rabbi Tropper is wrong. There are no "winners" in this conversion business no matter which way you come at it and you and Rabbi Tropper are deluding yourselves that "your' geirim will be better tha Bomzer's geirim because they will not. The Gemara itself has long ago concluded that "kashim geirimn leYisroel kesapachas!"

    The only reason you can shout at Bomzer is because he has been around a long time, but in 30 years time, if EJF even exists that long, you will see a lot worse than what happened with Bomzer. By the way, at least Rabbi Bomzer is personally a nice person and people do not hate him personally, unlike Rabbi Tropper who is intensely hated and despised by manny people who are angry at him. This is not imagination, it's unfortunately true.

    "While Rabbi Bomzer does not have the luxury of throwing money AT goyim to lure them to convert (that is Rabbi Tropper's specialty) Rabbi Bomzer, according to you, takes a hefty fee from prospective geirim." AND WITHOUT KABLAAT HAMITZVOT. Hefty fee for ezem conversion may invalidate the gerus!"

    RaP: Fee shmee. Everything costs. Rabbi Tropper has no problems of conscience to see millions of dollars spent on meetings and conventions as long as he can get to sit on the dais and he is noted as the macher in cheif of EJF. He is such an egomaniac that to him tens of millions of dollars from Dr. Tom Kaplan that could help other genuine Torah and klal causes are spent on what are nothing less than mini rallies for a personality cult that is being built up even more around Rabbi Tropper, and many people are getting tires of all this. So Bomzer's fees are pennies compared to the tens of millions Tropper gets from Kaplan to push his own name and controversial agenda. Talk of hacking a tchaynik yet!

    "Now I do not know which is morally worse and both situations sound morally compromising". Taking money for the gerut itself is WORSE as a ayan that takes money for his services may render the services invalid according to Halacha and SO!"

    RaP: And Tropper and EJF paying dayanim and Batei Din and giving meals and stipends to rabbis is any better?

    "Btw: Since you quote Vaad Harabonim LEinyoney Giyur, do you know what *they* think of Rav Druckmans decision and of those who attacked Rav Druckman?" "RaP: Yes, I do. So what? This is a broad ranging discussion of the issues in cyberspace and we are not here to take sides as if Pinchas or Matisyahu had just dropped in screaming "mi LaShem eilai" No, that is relevant to your misinformation about the position of RE an his opposition to RT: He oes NOT OPPOSE the ned for such an organization as he holds that we need to publicly declare those whose conversions without kabbalat hamitzvot to null anbd void and he also holds that there is a ned to create a body that will estrablish batey Dinim that will curtail the usage of the fake conversion rabbis!"

    RaP: Again you are confusing TWO agendas!

    Number one: Noone is against setting up more and better Batei Din and improving old ones. That is a good goal and Rabbi Eisnestein has been trying to do this for many years BEFORE Rabbi Tropper and Tom Kaplan cooked up the EJF concoction.

    Number two: The subject of working with the gentiles who want to convert. This is where there are differences. Rabbi Tropper and EJF want to go all out and have as many goyim as they can lay their hands on who are thinking of conversion come to their EJF programs. This is "kiruv to the goyim" aka proselytization that is VERY controvesrial. The BADATZ is 100% against this and in all probability Rav Eisenstein is against it to. If he rejects dayanim with yadin-yadin semicha just because they might wear a colored shirt then he cannot accept millions of goyim who may have all sorts of reasons to become Jews. It's quite obvious that this is where the problem lies but you insist on mixing up the two things. Stop it.

    "They are wrong and Rabbi Tropper is wrong for trying to bring in goyim into Klal Yisroel', as long as there is no documentation that the Batey inim of T convert without kabalat hamitzvot lechatechila, his BD are 1000,000 better than your phony bomzer's introduction of goyim to kal yisroel."

    RaP: Oh, so now YOU want "documentation" when Rabbi Tropper himself lechatchila cannot produce and refuses to come with any rabbinical documentaion to even justify what he is doing. So stop being a wise guy ok, and be a mentsch. Bomzer is not a Charedi rabbi like Rabbi Tropper and he can only be dealt with in the Modern Orthodox/Young Israel world, on the other hand Rabbi Tropper who touts his Charedism like it was some sort of "Aryanism" lehavdil and teaches his disciple sto scorn the secular world has not provided any written justification for his work with EJF and he has ignored the appeals of the BADATZ who took the unusual step of condeming him and he treats it like nothing. What kind of example is that for a very Charedi rabbi?

    "RaP: And Rabbi Tropper's new solution of mass conversions assisted by EJF is not the solution. It is better to slam the door shut and to say that conversion time is over and that only the best of the best true geirei tzedek will be allowed to be megayer..." This can only be done if you announce that no one should use BOmzer for conversions; absent that; all your talk is hogwash..."

    RaP: Again, I have nothing to do with Rabbi Bomzer. But that does not mean that people may not use him, just like I do not say that people may not approach RabbI tropper. Let them try both and see who they prefer. Noone can force people to like or to use "only" one rabbi. Only a dictator, like Tropper, thinks like that. I am not in a position to judge Bomzer, and you yourself have said that even though the Israeli Chief rabbinate does not accept all his conversions they advise that his conversions be evaluated on a case by case basis. He is just one part of dozens of such Batei Din and I wish Rabbi Eisenstein well in trying to toughen the standards of Batei Din, that is if they will even listen to him.

    As for EJF, since it wants to do MORE than just work with Batei Din, but it has this global reach out to goyim agenda, it must be opposed especially in the light that it is coming from a man who resperents himself to be a very frum Charedi rabbi, "gaon" and rosh yeshiva of the BT Kol Yaakov yeshiva.

    "and everyone else must be written into a book of yuchsin (starting in Israel) that will identify all those who are Halachik Jews since there is no chance you are ever going to convince anywhere from 300,000-600,000 Russian goyim in Israel to convert Halachically even if you invited each one to ten EJF dinners, they don't care about Yiddisheit or about Rabbi Tropper or about EJF or any rabbis, get that through your head." You are talking irrtionally again: Those are not the thereat of an organization like eJf (for accoring to your own admission T will nto convince to come to him so he is not brigning them to klal yisroel); they might be brought to klal yisroel by soemone elese israel which may be leninent an not require kabbalat hamitvot.
    Sefer Hayuchssin is not helpful anyway for these cases for the Rabbis who officiate the weddings (anywhere in the world) should make their own detective work, and Sefer Hayuchssin might be bring many other problems; and most importantly it would not stem the fake conversion by people like HB."

    RaP: You make some nice points. But I would suggest that if everyone took the sefer yuchsin idea to heart and submitted just a few names at a time, then over time millions of names would get into the data base like it does with Dor Yesharim genetic testing. It is not impossible and it can get started, we don't have to worry about doing it overnight but it it is very doable with patience and determination.

    "And no, this has nothing to do with kiruv but the underlying issue was geirus and not "kiruv" because kiruv by definition means kiruv to a Halachic Jew but when you are trying to convince a goy to become a yid that is NOT "kiruv" ", Bobeh mayasssehs! ask your freinds who do kriuv adn they will tell you that there SO MANY people who would like to be niskarev and the impediment is their spouse being non jewish! And that is why *they* summon people like *Herbert Bomzeer* (when they mean leshem shomayim and some/many do!). The person would not be ready to divorce his wife; but would be ready to live jewishly if the wife would live jewishly and converted within the norms of halacha."

    RaP: This point is actually your best one so far and it actually proves that you are a deep thinker and that you may be Rabbi Tropper or someone who is his twin almost. Indeed, this is the crux of the matter coming from the world of kiruv and I have written on this blog about The End of Kiruv As We Know It (July 18, 2008) "...because up until about twenty years ago it could be asumed that most Jews in America were the products of both a Halachically correct mother AND father. This formula changed forever once Reform in America sanctioned, accepted and practices the validity of patrilineal descent as enough of a criterion for being "Halachically" Jewish." Something Rabbi Tropper is accutely aware of and then therefore what follows is a Paradigm Change For Kiruv (July 18, 2008): "...GRASPING THE CHANGE IN THE KIRUV PARADIGM. It would NOT be an exaggeration to say that all Orthodox kiruv rabbis and workers deal with either students who are either the children of intermarriages or who are themselves intermarried, perhaps multiple times...the last 25 years have been different, from the 1980s until the present the numbers of Halachic non-Jewish who thought they were Jews, with most not understanding the ins and outs of the Halachic points, started to be part of all outreach programs and it could not be avoided...Rabbi Tropper is a venturer because with his EJF program to welcome in by doing outreach to the non-Jewish spouses of interfaith couples under "strict" Beth Din auspices (actually fueling the flames of the process, as it were) he is doing a classical juggling act, that on the one hand he is trying to preempt and ward off attacks from the Haredi world he admires and respects and needs but at the the same time he is caving in to the interfaith flood at the gate and in this he is no different to ALL other Kiruv workers out there today trying to cope with the flood tide of interfaith students (meaning students from mixed marriages or intermarrieds themseleves, or those with non-Halachic conversions), and instead of calling a spade a spade and seeing the writing on the wall, that THE AGE OF KIRUV AS WE KNOW IT IS OVER and maybe even walking away from it, he tries to finesse it (Dr. Tom Kaplan has lots of money and what else is there to do for a living if not helping millionares find solutions to their intermarried problems?), and that is why he was slapped by the BADATS who then sent out letters of warning to all those Recipients and asking for Publicity that Rabbi Tropper's agenda and methods were not part of the solution but were more part of the problem...."

    "In short it is waste to go through to rebut point by point to each of your lines of reasonings."

    RaP: Pity, because I have the highest regard for your statements and contributions.

    "To summarize: 1) The need for such an organization is there NOW according to major leading Rabbonim. (with the opposition of only one rabbnic organization),"

    RaP: This is only a half-truth and therefore a mischaracterization. While no Orthodox rabbi would argue that there is a need to raise the standards of any Bais Din (if need be) on the other hand there is fierce debate and even opposition from many to any effort coming from Orthodox, especially Haredi sources that would help unlimited amounts of gentiles become Jews merely because they are involved or secularaly married to Jews.

    The two issues, while they are both part of EJF's agenda, must be treated and judged separately and NOT meshed into one cholent just because it is a two-pronged stretegy to gain legitimacy and credibility for EJF at which it is so far failing as it falls flat on its face in trying to please all it pleases none.

    "2) the need to eradicate fake conversions"

    RaP: This is tough talk and it sounds too much like "ethnic cleansing" chalila. As Jews today live in open democratic societies they will always have democratic freedoms in all spheres including religion and as long as there is this system of open societies with justice and liberty for all, no group, or aspirants for some kind of religiosity can be "eradicated" as if they were vermin ch"sh. Such thinking and expressions are atrocious and foolish and could only be uttered by a purist and megalomaniac such as Rabbi Tropper.

    "and raise councioussnes for those who use rabbis who make fake conversions and to oppose a conversion without kabalat hamitzvot,"

    RaP: Once a rabbi has spent many years in yeshiva and probably in kollel too with the guidance of rebbeim and roshei yeshiva and poskim and presumably has semicha, sometimes very high semicha, and if such a rabbi is then a dayan on a Bais Din, if he is an ehrliche person, he does not need to be lectured to or taught by an upstart like Tropper about "highre standrds" or about anything for that matter, get that through your head. This is a surefire recipe for conflict and machlokes and bitternes and sinas chinam with lots of chillul Hashem to follow as it always does.

    "This need is more important that the need to excoriate T, for T does NOT bring goyim into klal yisroel (unless you will prove that his conversions are done without kablaat hamitzvot) whereas HB does bring goyim to klal yisroel!"

    RaP: It seems that poster Roni/roni cannot get past his fixation on Rabbi Bomzer. To repeat yet again: Rabbi Bomzer is wrong for lowering standards, if that is what he is doing, and Rabbi Tropper is wrong for waging war on fellow rabbis when they have done him no harm and when he is setting up an effort like EJF that could ch"sh legitimize millions of goyim to becoming geirim under the banner of "higher standrds" a job that is better left for the True Mashiach and not for a frenzied rabbi like Rabbi Tropper who is suffering from a problematic messianic complex with evident delusions of grandeur.

    "3) Whether or not RT is the proper person this organization I do not know."

    RaP: He is not! Ask the BADATZ. Ask the YU/RCA crowd. Ask the Chabad and Aish HaTorah crowds. He makes too many enemies wherever he goes. For such a role, a man of peace is needed lechatchila, not just any rabbi because he is Dr. Tom Kaplan's guru.

    "Time will tell whether your objections are valid and in thte total sum of pros and cons the positive will outwigh or the contrary,"

    RaP: It sure will.

    "4) Sefer Hayuchassin: While a good idea on it's own"

    RaP: Thank you for agreeing that it is a good idea.

    "may not deter the prblem of bringing goyim to klal yisroel thtohugh fake conversions."

    RaP: One does not negate the other. The sefer yuchsin project could start no matter what is happening in the world and it could easily pick up steam. It is not a difficult thing, especially in Israel, where already about half the world's Jews live by now if they wanted to start it.

    "(I have also heard that people say that the Lubavitcher REbbe Zt"l was at end opposing to the idea of Sefer HaYuchassim)."

    RaP: I never heard this. I know that he started the 7 Mitzvas Bnai Noach project and then stopped it, also because he was criticised of doing "outreach to the goyim" when there is enough of a job with Jews. He was also the one who pushed the hardest for the ammendment of Israel's Law of Return to state that a Jew is defined as one born of a Jewish mother or as of a "giur kehalacha" so in fact he started this whole idea of raisng standards realting to proper conversions and the need for higher standards before anyone else did!

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