A student of Tropper defends his teacher

I was given permission by the sender to publish this anonymously - unedited - to provide understanding of the other side.
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I wanted to thank you being a voice of reason in our current world where, unfortunately, it becomes more popular to align against our Rabbaim than to actually consider the consequences.

 A little about me: I am a Talmud of Rabbi Tropper, having learned in his Yeshiva for over 5 years.  The Rosh Yeshiva IS a very affectionate person who is very passionate about Torah values, Ahavas Yisroel and Kiruv. The tests on a Kiruv professional’s emunah and character are obvious. It is very, very easy to upkeep high standards living in a large Jewish community. Remove that community to be in a position of constant bombardment from secular values and viewpoints, and anyone can be vulnerable.  I’ve heard Rabbaim, working far from such communities in Kiruv, bewail about how they’ve had children who became Korbanos because of it …

 However, I have to say that all the collective interactions and experiences I’ve ever had with the Rosh Yeshiva tell me he is absolutely 1000% innocent of all these allegations. He has always maintained his emunah and character. What’s more is that he is a Talmud Chacham, and an uncompromising subscriber to Daas Torah.

 I noticed some responses to your blog concluded that, since he stepped down from EJF, he must be guilty.  This flaw is noted in the Chofetz Chaim’s Hilchos Loshon Harah in the case of one being defamed in public and remains silent.  The din, of course, is that the victim’s silence gives absolutely no basis to conclude that he/she is guilty.  Rabbi Tropper simply does not want to make matters worse for himself and his family, and apparently, he has made some very powerful enemies.

 As for the alleged  audio footage: audio technology nowadays can be edited right up to each millisecond.

 It is my hope that those who wish to harm him see their efforts for what they are and do Tseuvah, and that Rabbi Tropper’s name be vindicated.

 Again,
thank you.

More on EJF by Eli Neuberger

5TJewishTimes

The recent Tropper scandal truly boggles the mind! I do not recall a scandal of this magnitude, where someone like that led an organization in which so many prominent Roshei Yeshiva and Torah leaders were either directly or indirectly associated. How could that be? How could this happen?

Perhaps it might be wise to examine the history of Rabbi Leib Tropper.

He has been involved with Kiruv for close to 40 years. After unsuccessful stints in Ohr Somayach of Jerusalem and Monsey, he established a Kiruv Yeshiva on his own called Kol Yaakov. But his Yeshiva never hit the big time of the Kiruv world. ....

EJF scandal - comments from other blogs

1. From R' Harry Maryles:

I knew what this con man was about 20 years ago when I first met him. He was responsible then for ruining the life of one young man I am very close with - making life miserable for his parents. His mother went to the grave suffering an estrangement from her son for which Leib Tropper was responsible. His father suffers to this day from it. He took advantage of this young man's misfortune and conned him into doing something no decent man would ever do. And he made it seem like he was doing him a favor. This young man is now 20 years older and still suffering the consequences of it. Consequences that after 20 years have little chance of being reversed! I cannot get into details because confidences would be broken. But suffice it to say his only concern at that time was not to help this young man but to help himself by gaining the support of a wealthy friend in doing this con.

2. From a comment on ViN:

I have been involved with Kiruv for over three decades. Close to thirty years ago a university student underwent a Giyur Kehalacha when he discovered that his mother was converted by Conservative rabbis. A week later he went to Yeshivas Ohr Sameach. A few weeks ago EJF told him that his Giyur may not be good because they have questions of the Rabbonim who did it. Who is a erliche Orthodox Rav and does not do kulahs in Giyur. This shocking action is beyond belief. The EJF did not call the Rabbomin in question. They just put the Safek in the mind of this person 3 decades later. We need a proper structure in Giyur, and proper standards kept. However the idea that Rabbonim in Monsey, or Meah Shearim will suddenly begin to question Geirus done properly is outrageous. There is no historical precedent for this. There are a small group of Rabbonim aligned with EJF that have attempted to impose their view on Gierus. They are overreaching and creating havoc in the Jewish community.

3. From a comment on ViN:

I went to Rav Reuven Feinstein when the now infamous former head of the EJF tried to stop my marriage to my wife who is a giyores. He claimed that the Rov who was migayer her did not know what he was doing. Rbe Reuven told me that her geirus was fine. We are married now. The head of EJF got what he deserved for the pain he caused me and many others.

4. From a comment on ViN:

I converted years ago and have been frum from the time I emerged from the mikvah and the EJF told me my conversion was invalid because of the rabbonim on the beis din, all of whom were frum Orthodox rabbonim by the way. I was not the only person this happened to. Of course the EJF offered to 'fix' it for a substantial sum of money. How nice of them.

5. From Rabbi Natan Slifkin:

Also involved in the campaign against my books was Yaakov Kalmanowitz's brother,Rabbi Osher Kalmanowitz of the Mir Yeshivah in New York. He did not want to openly involve himself, and so he recruited his friend Rabbi Leib Tropper of Yeshivas Kol Yaakov in Monsey. Rabbi Tropper created a story that was told to the Rabbis who were approached to condemn the books. The story involved two students in his yeshivah, described as "angelic," who allegedly dropped out of yeshivah and left Orthodoxy after reading my books and concluding that "if the Sages could have been wrong about science, then they could have been wrong about everything." Rabbi Elya Wachtfogel, the primary rabbinic authority behind this ban, presented this story as grounds for his campaign. I myself was shaken when I heard about this story, but my mentors were skeptical and advised my to investigate it. The investigation showed that one of them was barely observant to begin with, and dropped out of yeshivah before my book on the Sages' knowledge of science was published. The other left Kol Yaakov and went to YU; he wrote to me that it was nothing to do with my books, which strengthened his Judaism, but he noted that the rabbis in Kol Yaakov did not like them.

EJF: Kiruv or Geirus?/ RaP

RaP:wrote:

EJF is now going all out in its alliances with Kiruv organizations as is evident from its scheduled events from November 2009 to May 2010, (as of Nov 10, 2009). The point to note is that almost all these events are being set up and run on a normal basis by the kiruv organizations themselves who do this constantly as part of their programming and scheduling of events to "reach out" to new students and educate them in Yiddishkeit as they try to mekarev them to full Torah observance. But this cannot explain or excuse EJF from sticking out like a sore thumb and a black sheep because EJF is NOT and has NEVER been a kiruv organization. It has always trumpeted its goal of helping couples get conversions for gentiles where one partner is hitched to a gentile and help the gentile partner become an EJF-style ultra charedi convert to Judaism under Rabbi Tropper's authority and supervision forevermore. In this regard EJF has always had a controversial proselytizing agenda by reaching out to GENTILES that is in a direct conflict of interest with pure kiruv where the agenda is to reach out to JEWS and make them more Torah observant. Obviously something has gone horribly wrong as EJF has managed to penetrate kiruv organizations and compromise them at a time when they need hard cash to keep going something that Tropper can provide through the good graces of Tom Kaplan but which creates more problems than it solves in the long run. Simply put: WHO LEADS THIS ENTIRE EFFORT, EJF WITH ITS UNABASHED PROSELYTIZING AGENDA OR THE OUTREACH ORGANIZATIONS WITH THEIR PURE KIRUV AGENDA?:

For November 2009:http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/events/
For December 2009:http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/events/2009/12/
For January 2010: http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/events/2010/01/
For February 2010:http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/events/2010/02/
For March 2010:http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/events/2010/03/
For April 2010:http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/events/2010/04/

Rav Reuven Feinstein: Kiruv and mixed couples

I was sent a recent recording of Rav Reuven Feinstein,shlita regarding kiruv and mixed couples. He explicitly says that it is prohibited to advertise and promote seminars to attract mixed couples to come with the hope that they will eventually convert. He says that is only permitted to strengthen those couples that come on their own with a genuine interest to learn more about Judaism and without an awareness that mixed marriages are prohibited. Only such couples who are interested lshem shamayim are to be converted while those who know that intermarriage is wrong are to be rejected. He says it is not only his view but it is one Rav Eliashiv, shlita, expressed when they asked him what was permitted. Rav Reuven's view is the one I have long defended as normative against R' Tropper and his representative Roni - while they defended the view which Rav Reuven explicity rejects on this recording. Below is an example of EJF's advertisement for attracting mixed couples to a seminar - exactly that which Rav Reuven says on this recording is clearly prohibited.

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EJF declares world-wide war on intemarriage

Eternal Jewish Family Blog

The Eternal Jewish Family International (EJF) has launched a major initiative on three continents to stem the tide of soaring intermarriage in Jewish communities in the US, Israel and Europe. Eternal Jewish Family is partnering with the largest and most successful kiruv (outreach) organizations, such as Ohr Somayach — Jerusalem, Hidabroot, Lev L'achim and Nefesh Yehudi in reaching out to large numbers of Jewish youth "with a direct message on the threat of intermarriage to themselves, their families, and the Jewish future". In the US, Eternal Jewish Family will team up with Gateways in reaching vulnerable youth. "This epidemic of intermarriage can only be confronted with 'straight talk' about the dangers of intermarriage", said Rabbi Leib Tropper, Rosh Yeshiva of Kol Yaakov/Horizons and the chairman of the Rabbinical Board of Eternal Jewish Family. "We can no longer afford to beat around the bush in the hope that the anti-intermarriage message will somehow penetrate". In many instances, Eternal Jewish Family will be cosponsoring seminars and Shabbatonim for the Jewish youth where special sessions will be devoted to the dangers of intermarriage. The first such Shabbaton in March was held in Baden, Austria in a joint program with Nefesh Yehudi for more than 100 Israeli medical students in Central and Eastern Europe. Eternal Jewish Family will be joining the outreach (kiruv) organizations in many similar seminars in the coming months.

EJf - June 2009 conference in Jerusalem

EJF Blog

IT WAS BY ALL accounts an unprecedented gathering of leading kiruv rabbanim from around the world, as well as rabbanim in cities and towns throughout Israel. The event took place from June 15–17, 2009 at Jerusalem's Inbal Hotel. The sponsor was the Eternal Jewish Family International, which is in the midst of a major global expansion of its activities to support rabbanim and batei din involved with intermarried couples who genuinely strive for a halachic conversion to Judaism. It also assists kiruv organizations that are on the front lines in the fight against assimilation, such as the co-sponsors of the event: Arachim Ohr Somayach Hidabroot Lev L'achim Shuvu Nefesh Yehudi In the U.S., it also includes the Gateways organization.

The rabbanim deliberated on such topics as "Worldwide Assimilation: Today's Spiritual Holocaust", "Building Barriers Against Fictitious Conversions to Judaism," Anti-Semitism and Assimilation: Cause or Effect?", and "Determining the Status of Certain 'Jews' in the Community". The rabbanim, who represented numerous cities around the globe, expressed their deepest concern over the grave issue of world-wide assimilation. In addition, they addressed a growing problem in Israel where many young people return from study abroad with non-Jewish spouses. Kiruv experts spoke of the dangers facing Israeli youth in Israel. They resolved to step up the educational efforts to hopefully thwart this growing trend. The tone of the historic conference was set by Eternal Jewish Family's chairman, Menachem Yitzchak (Tom) Kaplan who noted that "in my wildest dreams I could not imagine such a rapid and broad acceptance by rabbanim all over the world of the vision we laid out with the help of the leading Torah authorities". Kaplan said that he was "committed to do whatever it takes to take on assimilation and problematic conversions to Judaism wherever the problem exists". Rabbi Leib Tropper, the organization's chairman of the Halachic Committee, spoke of the successes of Eternal Jewish Family in "raising the bar on conversions to Judaism and successfully uniting rabbanim and dayanim from disparate backgrounds in preserving kedushas yisroel". The theme of kedushas yisrael was also addressed by some of the notable gedolei yisrael and leading rabbanim who participated in the conference. [...]

EJF - attracting non-Jews to proselytize - is permitted

The self (?) appointed spokesman for R' Tropper - Roni has left a new comment on "EJF - Halachic justification/ / Roni": I am making it into a post because of what it reveals about the true nature of Eternal Jewish Family. What Roni is asserting here - and I received a letter from R' Tropper to the same effect - There is nothing wrong with proselytizing as long as one does not walk up to a non-Jew and try and convert him. However putting out come-on notices on the internet, ads in the newspapers, or offering all-expenses paid vacations in swank resorts to listen to top speakers promoting conversion is allowed since the non-Jew is attracted to come and you don't go to him. Furthermore it is asserted that Rav Reuven Feinstein - the posek for Eternal Jewish Family - permits this. They also insist that this is not proselytizing but merely kiruv. (You might also notice Roni's liberal use of ad hominem arguments - something which R' Tropper vehemently protests when they come from his critics). In sum the position of Eternal Jewish Family (with the apparent backing of Rav Reuven Feinstein ) is that encouraging non-Jew (especially intermarried couples) to convert is not halachically prohibited - as long as they accept the obligation to keep all the mitzvos in the chareidi way. Thus attracting non-Jews and then pressuring them to convert is not problematic - as long as in the end they agree to keep all the mitzvos as a chareidi Jew. It is also clear from their advertisements that they don't restrict their activities to intermarried couples. I would suggest R' Tropper find a less embarrassing defender.

RAp, talking like a real am hooretz, can you start answering the question "Where in Shulchan Oruch is there aN ISSUR to encourage an intermarried person to convert",

You are unable to start any conversation. You and Dt (and the third stooge) cannot even begin to have a rational discussion over this matter, you do not know where to being so you start with the new testament of

"You are not Rav Yosef Karo writing the Shulchan Oruch and interpreting it definitively nor are you the only one who says "where does it say in the shulchan oruch this and that" like a beginner. Some things are so pushut that the shulchan oruch doesn't have to spell them out,",

like a real am hooretz....you and your colleagues shout from the top of your longues for years about this terrible tragedy and issur and after your introduction of false sources (like a real ignoramus that you are) you now state that this is "so poshut the the SO does not have to spell it out", yet the SO does not find it so poshut to spell out that you are not allowed to convert for the sake of marriage?!?!

All your questions do NOT HAVE ONE HALACHIK SOURCE, BUT YOUR NEW TESTAMENT! You are such a boor that you cannot even begin to bring some halachik points mentioned by Rav Sternbuchwhose points were STRONGLY REJECTED BY RAV MOSHE FEINSTEIN, RAV HENKIN, RAV SZ AURBACH, RAV Y KAMENETZKY AND MORE!

yOU SHOTEH OTZUM "NEW TESTAMENT" IS SOMEONE WHO CHANGES THE LAWS OF YIDDISHKEYT! AND FOR THE UMPEENTH TIME YOU CAN REPEAT LIEK THE BROKEN RECORD, BUT RT DIDN'T BEGIN TO MAKE THE MISSIONARY CONVERSIONS THAT YOUR FRIEND BOMZER MADE...YOUR KRUMMER BROKEN RECORD AND THE SOUR CHOLLENTS ARE GETTING WORSE BY THE DAY YOU DON'T QUALIFY EVEN FOR A "MEGALEH PONIM BETORAH" AS YOUR KRUMKEYT HAS GOT NOTHING WITH TORAH...

So that people do not forgeth the content: The question posed to RAP. DT and the third stooge was: Where is the source in HALACHA that it is ossur to encourage intermarried cpules to covnert???

THese fellow twist and turn but are unable to talk about the issue...

EJF - Halachic justification/ / Roni

After two years of repeated requests - our chaver Roni has succeeded in providing us with two critical pieces of information regarding Eternal Jewish Family. 1) The teshuva of Rav Reuven Feinstein, shlita - which provides the halachic rationale for EJF's kiruv (proselytization) of the non-Jewish spouse in mixed marriages 2) the explanation presented below of why there are no written haskomas from the many gedolei Torah who are actively associated with the organization or at least attend their conferences.

I would like to publicly thank Roni for his tenacity and desire to present the truth as he sees it and the countless hours he has spent trying to explain and defend R' Tropper's activies. It has obviously been an unpleasant experience for him to constantly face and explain to those of us who are less than sympathetic to what is going on. I will also reiterate what I have said a number of times before - I think that R' Tropper and his associates are working leshem Shamayim. However that doesn't preclude the possibility that their approach can be harmful and fail as Roni admits below. I will be transferring a number of comments from the previous posting that are relevant to this thread. Please keep your comments to the point, respectful and avoid personal attacks.

With these pieces of information I think it is possible to have a more productive discussion of these issues. I would like to note that Roni seems to feel Rav Reuven's interpretation of his father's position and other statement as Daas Torah. I apologize if I misunderstood this and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong. I just want to reiterate a conversation I had with Rav Dovid Feinstein regarding this issue of his father's authority. He said, "I never heard my father justify his psak by saying that it was Daas Torah." Rav Moshe clearly states this in his introduction to Igros Moshe, the essence of his rulings are sevoras. His rulings are to be judged by the perceived validity of his sevoras. He also acknowledges that he is capable of error but that since he has put so much time and effort in arriving at the conclusion which he thinks is correct - one should not be hasty to dismiss it but to seriously analyze his opinion. I don't think that his son's views should be approached with a higher level of authority than that of his father.

[Roni asked that I add the following]

Before I respond to your recent post: I must reiterate and please post this as an addendum to your head post: That the*TESHUVA* IS Rav Reuven's; but the second issue the (the explanation why there are no written haskomos to the *organization* (not that there are not *halachik teshuvas* and discussions, BECAUSE THERE CERTAINLY ARE! PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE WHAT i SAID), ARE MINE ONLY AND MAY NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THE REAL REASONING BEHIND THAT! BUT MY FEELING IS THAT THESE (AND MAYBE THERE ARE OTHERS) ARE THE REASONS WHY THEY WOULD NOT GIVE A *HASKAMAh* TO A INDIVIDUAL ORGANIZATION! (AS PROBABLY HAPPENS IN *SOME* OTHER ORGANIZATIONS ABOUT A DIFFERENT NATURE).

PLEASE DO NOT ATTRIBUTE THAT TO RAV REUVEN OR TO RAV TROPPER FOR I AM SAYING THIS ON MY OWN.

Roni wrote in response to Mekubal: ( I have made a number of corrections in to the original post)

4) the most important question: Why does he not get haskamot?

I'll give you possible answers which do not mean that they do not agree with him. a) Being that it is a novel approach. Practically speaking this method was not used especially with such an intensity therefore any respected RESPONSIBLE POSSEK would not necessarily want to to put his paper to endorse an organization if Chas Vesholom it does not succeeded to reach the hopeful goals.

b) Maybe others may follow suit and misuse the idea of the organization to take it a step further and perform these conversions without kabbalat hamitzvot. He does not want to take this public step to put his name on paper to that level.

c) and no Rabbi puts his name to sign on an organization which may in the future stumble on occasion and do something that is not correct and then people might mistake that this particular action had the approval of the Rabbi as he signed on the organization.

But on the other hand Rav Reuven partakes himself as member of the Organization. He is involved in guiding them in the Halachik Shaylos and so on. You can see the Teshuva that I posted earlier (and I"ll try BLN to scan it to Dt) as the teshuva Rav Reuven wrote to EJF where he rules on the focal question of the blog to Rav Tropper and he cites that his father the Posek HaDor HaRAv Moshe Feinstein of B"m permitted the issue in certain conditions (which is exaclty what EJF attempts to follow).

EJF promotes conversion for intermarried

Recipients and Publicity commentary on latest developments with EJF "Eternal Jewish Family - R' Tropper's blog":

EJF promotes conference with Kiruv organizations, while its theme is "Converting Intermarried Couples", yet is set to promote the toughest approach to conversion itself, as EJF and Rabbi Tropper are forced to issue an official public apology and explanation to the RCA over another conversion incident. Firstly the apology:

(1) EJF and Rabbi Tropper have issued the following on the official EJF website:

"EJF Updates 05/11/2009

EJF Clarifies Stand on RCA Geyrus

A media report that appeared to challenge the validity of a geyrus performed by a rabbi affiliated with the Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) was not authorized by EJF. The report made it appear as if EJF was critical of the geyrus, when in fact EJF was never privy to the circumstances behind the giyur. While questions were raised about the procedure that led up to the giyur, EJF at no time ruled on the status of the conversion. It likewise never authorized anyone affiliated with the organization to address the giyur in the media. EJF International apologizes for any misunderstanding, particularly in a case where the Rosh Bais Din who performed the conversion is a true Talmid Chacham. In commenting on the giyur, Rabbi Leib Tropper noted, “Our standards that are based on the halachic rulings of past and present gedolei yisroel are well known and not subject to compromise. Both EJF and RCA agree that any differences should be aired between rabbinic leaders of both organizations and not in the media.” [to finish reading click on this link and read comments]

R' Tropper - is he good for the Jews?

While we have had some discussions about the validity of R' Tropper's approach, we have not really focused on the consequences.

R' Tropper is using geirus as a tool in kiruv. When he finds that a baal teshuva is stuck because he is married to a non-Jew he switches hats and works to have the non-Jew become a Jew. Thus he reasons it is a win win situation. The Jew becomes fully observant and his wife becomes Jewish. Their children now will add to the Jewish population instead of destroying it. The only down side, he reasons, is that the age old practice of not proselytizing needs to be bent a bit. Any problems with this he reasons are made up for by requiring the convert to adopt an Orthodox life style. Seem like a nice neat package. Why should anyone be upset with it.

Let us list the reasons.

1) He has removed the age old stigma to intermarriage. There is absolutely no consequences of intermarriage. If you ever want to legitimate it he is standing there with open arms. Of course since not all Jews want to be Orthodox - therefore he contributes to the intermarriage rate by allowing everyone to chose a non-Jewish partner without the slightest guilt or consequence. Consequences unknown. But we can reasonably assume that more Jews will intermarry with R' Tropper looking the other way - then will return to Judaism with a converted bride.

2) Let's assume that not everyone that R' Tropper converts will stay frum. Because he has such high standards and is makpid on kabbalos mitzvos - all of his converts will definitely become Jews. However the statistics from the past tell us that at least half will back slide. They will then become irreligious Jews. If he wasn't so meticulous then when the convert goes back they were never Jewish in the first place. If he wasn't so meticulous then the back sliding converts will be genuine non-Jews.

3) The consequences of having converts who are genuine Jews and were married in a genuine marriage - but who give up observance is very simple - mamzerim. Rav Moshe solved the mamzerus problem from the Reform and Conservative by saying their marriages were non valid. Similarly their converts are not valid. Not so R'Tropper's converts. However everyone of R' Tropper's converts is a potential producer of mamzerim.

4) An additional consequences in back sliding will be on the communities and families.

This is similar to the statement about Sedom. They had horrible laws - which weren't enforced until an honest judge Lot came along. It is specifically because he is makpid on keeping the laws that he is causing problems.

In sum. For R' Tropper to come along and introduce a change in the dynamic of the Jewish community he needs to show that what he is doing is beneficial. It is not enough to say that when he converts people they were frum. Rav Chaim Ozer had such a view and then 20 years later radically altered it to say that a decent beis din should not do conversions. Similarly Rav Moshe Feinstein knew all the hetirim but personally had nothing to do with geirus. What are the two, five and ten years statistics on Rabbi Troppers' converts. What is their impact on marriage and children?

EJF - Cost Benefit analysis

bandit has left a new comment on your post "EJF defended":

If the world of kiruv would be perfect and they would be concentrating on teaching people, one by one, Torah and mitzvos and they ran into the problem of intermarried couples we would understand (though not agree with) EJF's position. However, the vast majority of kiruv is half-baked and aimed at improving people's feelings towards Judaism instead of teaching them Torah. This may not be a problem (although probably is) but once we start doing other things because of kiruv we have to reevaluate. If someone out there believes kiruv to be changing lobster eaters into latke eaters he will be bringing his clients to this beis din too. When a spouse converts are they accepting all mitzvos? Are they accepting a path that leads to all mitzvos? They are statistically more likely to divorce. What will happen then? If the geyrus is kosher they may still act like goyim, not having seen their geyrus in any context other than connected to their Jewish former spouse. This can create problems with mamzeyrus. If the geyrus is not kosher we are left with more problems. For EJF to say that they only accept geyrus with KM is allowing them to create a problem and then try and create a solution. That is a dangerous approach.

As a sidebar, the Chasam Sofer writes in a letter that when fighting evil one must take care not to attack people personally for two reasons. One, because the argument makes less sense when it includes a personal attack. Two, because the evil stands on its own and even if the perpetrator dies or leaves the scene the evil must still be fought. The personal digs in these comments (both against R' Bomzer and R' Tropper and each other) detract from the weight of the argument.

One last point. The ads printed in the Jewish media have quoted lists of teshuvos supporting them. I made it my project to research them and I was shocked to see that not one proved their point. It was a good lesson to me to research everything . But the credibility of this organization took a severe beating. Who knows what other lies are being said?

Father's Jewish - try to convert?

This is an excerpt from R' Aryeh Ginzburg's sefer [pp 266-267.] As a young man he went around to gedolim with many important questions. He compiled this sefer from the answers. I personally find the sefer very frustrating since these are not teshuvos written by gedolim. Consequently there is no context or clarity. In other words you can't rely on these halacha le'maseh. It is also not valid to make diyukim in what he says. On the other hand he had very solid haskomas. Bottom line this material is thought provoking and encourages further study of the matter. The full sefer itself is available at Hebrew Books

There is a fundamental difference between what Rabbi Tropper is doing and the possible heter of a number of gedolim. As Rabbi Fuerst of Chicago has pointed out.

Are we dealing with someone who views themselves as Jewish? Someone who views themselves as Jewish and is enrolled in a Jewish school or attending kiruv meetings - is a serious problem for intermarriage. Rav Moshe Feinstein also suggests converting non-Jewish children who are attending a day school. He also says a similar heter regarding the Ethiopians in Israel who view themselves as Jewish.

On the other hand Rabbi Tropper is targeting non-Jews who have no doubt that they are not Jewish and are married to Jews. He claims that conversion is necessary for the sake of kiruv for the Jewish spouse.

Non of the gedolim mentioned advocated running after intermarried couples. In fact Rav Eliashiv explicitly stated concerning kiruv that the time honored practice has always been to ostracize such couples. Rav Eliashiv also makes an exception for a Jew who is married to a non-Jew who mistakenly thinks he/she is Jewish.

EJF - RaP's recapitulation

RaP responds to Roni's questions from a previous "EJF - Proselytizing Advertisement":
===============================
To Roni who said... "It is overwhelming clear that you on a rampage campaign against R. Tropper"

RaP: Nope, I am not on a "rampage" and you are mistaking and confusing a serious interest in this subject and thorough analysis and misnaming it a "rampage" simply because you don't like the concluions. Stop calling names and acting "frum" and holier-than-thou and debate the points in detail, if you can.

Furthermore, if you had even bothered to read some of my other posts you will see that I have defended Rabbi Tropper many times right here on this very blog, and in depth, trying to fathom and explain where he is coming from on kiruv and geirus issues and I even took Rabbi Tropper's hashkafic point of view against the owner of this blog and some of his serious supporters in the complex and sad Rabbi Slifkin saga (but I do not support Rabbi Tropper's alleged methods in slandering Rabbi Slifkin against other gedolim.)

If you don't believe me, please see the following five posts on this blog for yourself:

1) My post at "Rabbi Tropper & Prague - what happened?" at where I tried to explain Rabbi Tropper's complex position that became a new post at:

2) "R' Tropper - Kiruv vs Geirus/ RaP's analysis" at See my comments there that which shows my deepest sympathies with Rabbi Tropper's present struggles:

"Rabbi Tropper is from those kiruv workers (his main stock in trade) who works using the hard-sell method and he is very good at what he does in kiruv and is famous for his heady, strong-willed, blusterry speeches meant to bowl over his listeners, and yes he can be very intimidating and insulting to his listeners who may not share his moods. (Guess what: This is actually good kiruv believe it or not, because it is prone to induce a mind-shift as a form of "shock therapy" in his listeners opening them up to new Torah ideas they had never heard before), although he can also take it slow and gentle when he works with very diverse audiences who he knows will not go for his shock tactics. And yes, he generally holds that those who become his disci[les must adhere to quick adherence to his utterances and rules. Rabbi Tropper's kiruv methods as such are not an issue in this dialogue, nor do I think that his role in getting Rabbi Slifkin's books off the frum radar screen has anything to do with the current set of "Kiruv vs Geirus" issues that are riling Rabbi Tropper and confusing those who come face to face with him today because right now the man is a walking dichotomy. A sort of split personality, not fully conscious of the depth of his inner turmoil and extent of the self-contradiction he is spilling wherever he goes nowadays, as his kiruv side battles and tries to reconcile itself with the issues of geirus he has now immersed himself in for better or worse, and he is in over his head this time. While Rabbi tropper is agadol in the kiruv world, he is a zero in the world of dayanim and batei din. And yes, he is a big talmid chochme, but most rosh yeshivas (which he also claims to be of Kol Yaakov Yeshiva) are not involved in shimush lema'aseh and they are not dayanim. You do not go to a rosh yeshiva if you want to get divorced or are looking for a geirus. Rosh yeshivas are generally never poskim except for what goes on inside their yeshivas, and unlike a kiruv worker who can and MUST walk all over the range looking for people to mekarev, a dayan on the other hand, MUST contain himself and restrict himself to a very narrow venue, the Bais Din and its confines where he sits in judgment of cases and of others. In short, how to reconcile Kiruv ("drawing people close") and Richuk ("distancing" people)? How to reconcile the need to be a sweet Kiruv Worker (who must always be winning JEWISH friends and influencing people to eventually become/morph into being Haredi/Yeshivish) and on the other hand with a conflicting task, the enforcing the rules and dictates of Batei Din in regard to conversions that requires, per force, the distancing and pushing away of people, certianly gentiles and if need be even the Jews attached to those gentiles."

3) "R' Slifkin - context of ban /Ra" at where I even say:

"You know, this is where you have to admire Rabbi Tropper's kiruv derech that at least he does not lose himself or his students on all this fake double-talk about having some sort of allegiance to science and secular knowledge when as he rightly holds, Torah is not a substance that can be mixed or diluted with anything else to prove its powers and validity" and defending him "It's now le'acaher hama'aseh, and to get back to the point, Rabbi Tropper, at the end of the day is just a cog in what turned out to be pretty hefty Haredi machine. What can you do, that is just the way it goes sometimes."

4) "Kiruv I - The end of kiruv as we know it!" at l where I state that

"Rabbi Leib Tropper went in the other direction, feeling that both Ohr Somaych and Aish HaTorah had lost sight of their main mandate of basing everying ONLY on intense Gemora learning and rapid paced transformation to being a Ben Torah (not a bad goal but not as attractive to the nasses as Aish HaTorah's appeal, as is evident.)...Rabbi Tropper's Kol Yaakov yeshiva also in Monsey that stresses only the learning element, even though it does have an outrecah "Horizons" program...Rabbi Tropper is a venturer because with his EJF program to welcome in by doing outreach the non-Jewish spouses of interfaith couples under "strict" Beth Din auspices (actually fueling the flames of the process, as it were) he is doing a classical juggling act, that on the one hand he is trying to preempt and ward off attacks from the Haredi world he admires and respects and needs but at the the same time he is caving in to the interfaith flood at the gate and in this he is no different to ALL other Kiruv workers out there today trying to cope with the flood tide of interfaith students (meaning students from mixed marriages or intermarrieds themseleves, or those with non-Halachic conversions), and instead of calling a spade a spade and seeing the writing on the wall, that THE AGE OF KIRUV AS WE KNOW IT IS OVER..."And much of the above became the new post at:

5) "Kiruv II - Paradigm change for outreach workers" at

So at this time, unless you can acknowledge otherwise, it is obvious that you have not been reading those posts but just come here and make a few belly-aching comments simply because you don't like a few things you hear here.

"and the more you attack every single person associated with him an even attack Rav REuven Feinstein shows your even more your irrational campaign."

RaP: Can you point to the alleged "irrationality" you IMAGINE? Is the owner of this blog Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn "irrational", who posted I, II and and many other posts like this and who posts his and others' comments after serious review of each comment and who opposes the EJF effort and Rabbi Tropper's methods? Is Rav Moshe Shternbuch "irrational" for opposing efforts, see "Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Authorized Translation" and "Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Kiruv for non-Jews and "Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad" like those of Rabbi Tropper and the EJF? Is the entire BADATZ of the powerful Eidah HaChareidis "irrational" (are Horav Meir Brandsorfer, Horav Moshe Sternbuch, Horav Naftoli Frenkal, Horav Avrohom Yitzchok Ulman, Horav Yakov Mendel Yorovitch, Horav Yehoushua Rosenberg ALL "irrational" too for signing it?) see "Bedatz letter regarding conversion" and of taking the extreme measure of openly, see "Bedatz letter regarding conversion" and rebuking and warning dayanim and batei din all over the world who were Recipients of its official warning letters and giving Publicicty to it, authorising its dissemination online through this very blog by Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn. It has been Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn who has asked for written Halachik clarifications from Rabbi Tropper and EJF and none has been forthcoming, so take it up with him if you think he and others being "irrational" for asking for a written reason al pi din and for his efforts EJF tried to smear him, see "EJF smear campaign"

"While I unerstan the reservations against R. Tropper an his plans,"

RaP: You do? Like what? This may be the seed of some fruitful discussions perhaps, don't you think? instead of hiding behind smokescreens and blaming others of being "irrational" when you have no good RATIONAL and LOGICAL and FACTUAL arguments or proofs of your own to produce, so far.

"your voice of opposition shows that there is more at stake for his critics that are far from "leshem shamayim."

RaP: You are wrong and Rabbi Tropper has yet to prove that everything he does is "leshem shamayim" and not coming from his notorious over-sized ego that brooks no opposition and who yells at anyone who dares oppose him.

Rabbi Tropper does not need "defenders" that make him look like he is the "poor little victim" of something when he is not.

Rabbi Tropper and Dr. Tom Kaplan sat down and decided on their own on a new scheme, that went far beyond in a quantum leap from Rabbi Tropper's world of kiruv and his Baal teshuva Kol Yaakov Yeshiva (which he ran very well) and would now branch into the world of batei din and geirus (based on many reasons that I have discussed in my other posts) that they called "EJF" and how to sell it to rabbonim and to the frum world and of course to the world of gentiles who were married or hitched to Jews and who would now be targeted for being inspired to get "real" conversions at Batei Din, and how to implement all this as if this was a "product" like Coca Cola that was being launched based on a business plan with lots of financing and professionalism behind it. So let's get real please and not talk like babies.

"With regards to Rabbi Bomzer (which i can clearly see that what bothers you is that R. Tropper an many Rabbonim that participate in EJF attack the fake an phony conversions of people like R. H Bomzer),"

RaP: Quite honestly, nobody on this blog could give a hoot about Rabbi Bomzer because if you had read all the posts seriously you will see that most posters here are against ANY kind of easy conversions no matter from who, be it Rabbi Bomzer, Chabad, kiruv organizations and workers, the RCA, the Israeli Rabbanut and now including Rabbi Tropper and his EJF. So cut out the nonsense because noone on this blog cares about or has anything to do with Rabbi Bomzer.

"he is known in many circles for his false conversions where he converts people 1) knowing ahead of time that they are not interested to keep torah and mitzvot (not only that they have lapses in the future); do not keep shabbat, kashrut, taharat ha mishpacha from the very outset. 3) Actually the rabbanut over ten years ago has written that his conversion needs bedikah! for his reputation is actually very well known, an most importantly his fees are also known!"

RaP: All this is interesting, but not to the point and only proves that YOU want to now smear Rabbi Bomzer. If you want to get into these kind of discussions, then you will discover that most situations involving geirus involve matters of self-interest somewhere along the line. It was Rabbi Tropper's connection with Tom Kaplan whose sister married to a man of Hispanic ancestry (Otto Aguiar) and who needed a conversion for himself and son ("Guma Kaplan Aguiar is the son of Ellen Kaplan.") that was a huge factor dragging Rabbi Tropper into this whole EJF adventure, see "Who is behind Eternal Jewish Family?" and "Is Eternal Jewish Family the center of the universe?" It may be rabbis who need money and charge fees, or interfaith couples who lie about their true intentions just to fool the dayanim, entire rabbinates and batei din that are not respected and are negated by other batei din, like happeened to Rabbi Drukman at the hands of Rav sherman and the High Court of the Rabbanut and Rabbi Tropper at the hands of the Bais Din of the Eidah Hachareidis for attempts at working to facilitate mass conversions. So while talking about RabbI bomezer may be true and interesting it is not much different to all the other problems that will arise for rabbis in the geirus business. So again, quit harping about Rabbi Bomzer, because he is already history, noone here really cares about him, and the focus is now on Rabbi Troppe and EJF and it would be apprecaited if you can expa=lain to us what Rabbi Tropper and EJF are doing that is so great that in the meantime so many people are having genuine Halachic issues with it.

"Continue to defend him and other similar rabbis"

RaP: Noone is defedning anyone here if you haven't noticed. This is a forum for discussion and you are welcome to join it instead of standing on the sidelines making silly comments.

"an attack vehemently Rav Reuven Feinstein and others with such disparagment and everyone will see clearly publicity's agenda!"

RaP: Again you fail to understand that this is a serious matter that is under discussion and just by saying that Rabbi Reuven feinstein like Rabbi tropper and wishes him well, while on this blog Rabbi Tropper has been asked dozens of times to produce WRITTEN haskomas from Rav Reuven or Rav Dovid Feinstein and he still does not, must mean that RabbI tropper does not have a written haskoma to do outreach to gentiles in order to get them to convert and marry Jewish spouses. This is no different to learning any sugya where the subject is open and we must look for answers and if no official answers are given it is possible to speculate for motives that require greater clarity. Can you answer this question please: Does or has Rav Reuven shlit"a or Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit"a or any institutions they head ever received financial backing and donations from Dr. Tom Kaplan and one his family or any businesses and foundations they head? Let's get real with some real questions instead of your bobba-maises.

"Rabbi Bomzer is not unique and he can't be blamed for every conversion that went off the rails."

RaP: Right, and Rabbi Tropper is not unique and he cannot be blamed for every person he once mekareved and then went off the rails. And just like I would not blame Rabbi Tropper for his kiruv failures noone can blame any serious Orthodox rabbi who is a dayan for conversions when converts go off the rails because just like SOME Baalei teshuva fail in the end to stay frum, many geirim in the end fail in the end to stick to their commitments to be truly Halachically Jewish. And guess what, every religious Bar Mitzva boy starts out good but by the time his life is over many Jews are off the derech, and it is not always the fathers' and mothers' who must be blamed. But while all that is intersting, this is not what this discussion is about, which is the determination of Rabbi Tropper and RJF to pursue mass conversions for goyim, which even for the best and frummest of reasons, MUST result in a huge catatsrophe for Klal Yisroel, and per force mass Chillul hashem in its wake, and he should be convinced to stop now at all costs, before his "solutions" and "cures" become worse than the diseases and plagues of assimilation and intermarriage.

All men are equal? - RaP vs. R' Micha Berger

Recipients and Publicity wrote: concerning "R' Tropper - Kiruv vs Geirus/ RaP's analysis":

RaP had written in the above post: "But what to do when confronted with interfaith couples where the Jewish one needs kiruv and the non-Jew needs conversion? This is not an easy quandary for all concerned but at rock bottom, regardless of what the interfaith couples are told or imagine, the gentile is NOT a "tinok shenishba" and has NO neshama while the Jew has a 100% holy neshama, which the converting gentile presumably desires. While male Jew can count for a minyan as would the greatest gadol on Earth, as would a 100% Halachically Jewish mother (even if she was anti-religious) give birth to a 100% Jew, on the other hand a goy MUST be excluded from a minyan. These are facts life and Jewish Law."

R' MB: Didn't HQBH make a point of having us all come from Adam so that things like this would not be said?

RaP:What micha said is really very surprising:

RaP: Yes indeed that is the classical answer and it is true, but why do you ignore the fact that Judaism holds that a non-Jew does not have THAT neshama that a Jew does have and indeed it is exactly THAT neshama that the sincere potential convert wants to have and should/does get upon immersion in the Bais Din's mikva when THAT neshama that he did NOT have enters into him/her upon immersion in the mikva of geirus. That is all I was saying and there was no need of you to move the issue into illogical non-relevant humanistic and globalistic egalitarian drive, when you could have just let the obvious Halachic reality stand without unnecessary questioning by you.

R' MB: One may argue whether the difference is qualitative or quantitative. Or whether it's inherent, or a product of our being part of a mission (whether a willing part or not).

RaP: These are just nice words that have nothing to do with anything, I am afraid. Why are you panicking and why do have so much trouble when THE key difference between a Yid a Goy is pointed out? I.E.: That a Yid has a Holy Neshama and Goy does not. That is why a Yid is a Yid and Goy is Goy. What don't I get here?

R' MB: But to deny that every human being has a tzelem E-lokim... The Tanya says such things, but I can't think of anyone else who does.

RaP: The "tzelem E-lokim" was not mentioned here nor was it discussed. And as you know, the use of the phrase and notion of "tzelem E-lokim" requires definition and context depending how it is to be used, but one this is for sure, the idea that somehow gentiles may have a degree of the the sublime "tzelem E-lokim" does NOT mean that they automatically can be assumed to have a neshama as well upon their desire to convert to Judaism. Far from it. Regardless of the sublime and noble Godly origin and roots of all mankind, to use the analogy of the Jewish sages, a gentile is in essence like "water" and only upon proper Halachic conversion does that gentile become "wine" when he/she finally immerses in the mikva as if it was a literal miracle of birth. Call it the ultimate BORN AGAIN phenomenon (of course the Christians stole this idea like almost all their best ideas from Judaism.)

So, sure, according to the Pantheistic and Panentheistic (Panentheism posits that God exists and interpenetrates every part of nature, and timelessly extends beyond as well. Panentheism is distinguished from pantheism, which holds that God is synonymous with the material universe) views of Tanya, which posits sparks of G-d in everything, but even Tanya teaches that while while animals have the nefesh habahamis and humans have nefesh, it is ONLY Jews who have a higher complete neshama, the "neshama Elokis sichlis" as the MAHARAL of Prague labels it most definitively, and it is precisely THAT "neshama Elokis sichlis" that a true ger tzedek receives upon the completion of a successful geirus and more specifically upon immersion in the mikva which for the ger is considered THE literal moment of BIRTH as a Jew when the "neshama Elokis sichlis" enters into hi/her just as it does when a Jewish baby is born to a 100% Halachicaly Jewish mother. And hence the expression of the Chazal: "Ger shenisgayer ketinok/kekatan shenolad dami" ("[a] convert who converts [is exactly similar to] like [a] newborn [JEWISH] infant/child") (Yevamot 48b).

R' Tropper - Kiruv vs Geirus/ RaP's analysis

Guest Post by Recipients and Publicity: See previous posting on Rabbi Tropper

Kiruv process versus Geirus process: Source of Rabbi Tropper's dissonance.

Plony Almony 18 [makes some excellent and valid points that deserve more attention because they point to a huge dichotomy that lies beneath two huge and inter-related subjects: KIRUV and GEIRUS.

Kiruv and Geirus are as different as chalk and cheese. Making a yid become frum is not the same thing as being megayer a goy. Many (even kiruv rabbis) make a huge error in logic and metzius ("reality" and "fact") by thinking that there is a similarity between kiruv and geirus and they assume the same methods and tools of kiruv should and can be used for geirus. Only up to a point.

But what to do when confronted with interfaith couples where the Jewish one needs kiruv and the non-Jew needs conversion? This is not an easy quandary for all concerned but at rock bottom, regardless of what the interfaith couples are told or imagine, the gentile is NOT a "tinok shenishba" and has NO neshama while the Jew has a 100% holy neshama, which the converting gentile presumably desires. While male Jew can count for a minyan as would the greatest gadol on Earth, as would a 100% Halachically Jewish mother (even if she was anti-religious) give birth to a 100% Jew, on the other hand a goy MUST be excluded from a minyan. These are facts life and Jewish Law.

I have touched on some pertinent deeper issues in the posts that Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah had kindly posted at http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/07/kiruv-end-of-kiruv-as-we-know-it.html

That:

"...the real wars are among the Orthodox themselves, manifested more than anywhere else in each faction's attititude to geirus/conversion and its sister-ship kiruv/outreach, because as we see in today's world of the 21st century, there is turmoil in both how to mekarev (to do outreach) and how to megayer (to do conversions) and they are inter-related in many ways and on may levels, most of all in the real world of real lives as we see from all the problems and issues facing Orthodox outreach rabbis and outreach workers..."

And at http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/07/kiruv-ii-paradigm-change-for-outreach.html

"...Rabbi Tropper is a venturer because with his EJF program to welcome in by doing outreach the non-Jewish spouses of interfaith couples under "strict" Beth Din auspices (actually fueling the flames of the process, as it were) he is doing a classical juggling act, that on the one hand he is trying to preempt and ward off attacks from the Haredi world he admires and respects and needs but at the the same time he is caving in to the interfaith flood at the gate and in this he is no different to ALL other Kiruv workers out there today trying to cope with the flood tide of interfaith students (meaning students from mixed marriages or intermarrieds themseleves, or those with non-Halachic conversions), and instead of calling a spade a spade and seeing the writing on the wall, that THE AGE OF KIRUV AS WE KNOW IT IS OVER and maybe even walking away from it, he tries to to finesse it (Dr. Tom Kaplan has lots of money and what else is there to do for a living if not helping millionares find solutions to their intermarried problems?), and that is why he was slapped by the BADATS who then sent out letters of warning to all those Recipients and asking for Publicity that Rabbi Tropper's agenda and methods were not part of the solution but were more part of the problem...."

While the two fields of KIRUV and GEIRUS over-lap and are inter-connected in our times, yet they are two separate and often contradicatory entities. What scholars call DISSONANT:

While KIRUV is all about "drawing closer" (literally "lekarev" or "to be mekarev") in contradistinction, GEIRUS is about "qualifying for Jewish citizenship" (lagur = to become a "dweller/sojourner/to live among" = "to become a 'national' of the Jewish people according to its laws, as defined by the Torah and the Halachah.)

GEIRUS requires a modicum or even a lot of RICHUK (pushing away/rejection), the opposite of "kiruv" and potential converts MUST first be STRONGLY encouraged NOT to become geirim. As an historical example, Rav Yitzchok Hutner used to like to tell over the famous story from Rav A.Y. Kook about "der ger fun Paris" about a Parisian gentile who sought to become a ger but whom Rav Kook succeeeded in convincing to become Ben Noach instead and who when he ever came to meet Rav Kook on a Shabbat would come with a lit cigar to prove that he had not converted and had preferred to remain a goy. Rav Kook and Rav Hutner took great pride in the fact that a gentile was persuaded NOT to convert! Too bad not too many modern rabbis think and act like this in the world's egalitarian melting pot poly-glot culture.

That is why dispassionate legalistic cool sceptical suspicious and scholarly dayanim on a reliable Bais Din are the ideal choice for deciding matters of conversion, and certainly NOT charismatic rabbis with magnetic hypnotic charming personalities and winning ways who have toiled all their lives in Kiruv.

The dayanim on a Bais Din convened to hear and decide upon cases on conversion do not (or should not) care about hurting a prospective convert's "feelings" by rejecting the application/s to convert. This modus operandi is very UNLIKE kiruv workers who are trained to recruit, lure, beguile, make happy with lots of smiles and free hospitality and "courting", and (for lack of a better word) "missionize" leshem shomayim (hopefully!) secular and non-Orthodox Jews to become frum.

Kiruv workers have a whole range of methods relating to "how to win friends and influence people" ranging from soft-sell to hard-sell, from those who practice a gentle moderate gradualist approach to those who believe in conjuring up ex-nihilo "overnight wonders" that are obligated in immediate compliance to a rebbe/rav/yeshiva.

Rabbi Tropper is from those kiruv workers (his main stock in trade) who works using the hard-sell method and he is very good at what he does in kiruv and is famous for his heady, strong-willed, blusterry speeches meant to bowl over his listeners, and yes he can be very intimidating and insulting to his listeners who may not share his moods. (Guess what: This is actually good kiruv believe it or not, because it is prone to induce a mind-shift as a form of "shock therapy" in his listeners opening them up to new Torah ideas they had never heard before), although he can also take it slow and gentle when he works with very diverse audiences who he knows will not go for his shock tactics. And yes, he generally holds that those who become his disci[les must adhere to quick adherence to his utterances and rules.

Rabbi Tropper's kiruv methods as such are not an issue in this dialogue, nor do I think that his role in getting Rabbi Slifkin's books off the frum radar screen has anything to do with the current set of "Kiruv vs Geirus" issues that are riling Rabbi Tropper and confusing those who come face to face with him today because right now the man is a walking dichotomy. A sort of split personality, not fully conscious of the depth of his inner turmoil and extent of the self-contradiction he is spilling wherever he goes nowadays, as his kiruv side battles and tries to reconcile itself with the issues of geirus he has now immersed himself in for better or worse, and he is in over his head this time. While Rabbi tropper is agadol in the kiruv world, he is a zero in the world of dayanim and batei din. And yes, he is a big talmid chochme, but most rosh yeshivas (which he also claims to be of Kol Yaakov Yeshiva) are not involved in shimush lema'aseh and they are not dayanim. You do not go to a rosh yeshiva if you want to get divorced or are looking for a geirus. Rosh yeshivas are generally never poskim except for what goes on inside their yeshivas, and unlike a kiruv worker who can and MUST walk all over the range looking for people to mekarev, a dayan on the other hand, MUST contain himself and restrict himself to a very narrow venue, the Bais Din and its confines where he sits in judgment of cases and of others.

In short, how to reconcile Kiruv ("drawing people close") and Richuk ("distancing" people)? How to reconcile the need to be a sweet Kiruv Worker (who must always be winning JEWISH friends and influencing people to eventually become/morph into being Haredi/Yeshivish) and on the other hand with a conflicting task, the enforcing the rules and dictates of Batei Din in regard to conversions that requires, per force, the distancing and pushing away of people, certianly gentiles and if need be even the Jews attached to those gentiles.

Quite a Faustian predicament that Rabbi Tropper does not seem to have resolved for himself. While the Reform and Conservatives "have sold their soul to the devil" and are accepting gentiles to easily into the Jewish people ch"sh r"l and many in the Modern Orthodox and Religious Zionist movements are teetering on the edge of a slippery slope and look like they have thrown in the towel as they water down the halacha and make appearing before a Bais Din a mere formailty and an exercise in rubber-stamping by the Bais Din that has no standards, there are those poskim, dayanim and batei din alive TODAY like in the BADATZ/Rabbi Shternbuch/Rabbi Sherman/Rav Eliashiv/Rav Nochum Eisenstein & Beit Din Le'Inyanei Giur who INSIST on strict/er Halachic standards and are willing to oppose and fight against the tide of de facto and de jure assimilationism and intermarriage and not join it in any way shape size or form (while seemingly Rabbi Tropper THINKS and alleges he is speaking for them, but his actions at EJF over the years say otherwise).

So what Rabbi Tropper did or not do at the time that led to Rabbi Slifkin's books being banned in the frum world are essentially immaterial. For sometimes to catch a ganef one must act like a ganef, and ultimately the Torah world is better off without giving legitimacy to the pseudo-scientific makeover of midrashim, agadettes and Chazals by neophytes.

Indeed Rebbetzin Bruria Hutner David, principal of BJJ and the holder of a doctorate from Colombia University, see the full thesis at http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~spotter/david-chajes.pdf "THE DUAL ROLE OF RABBI ZVI HIRSCH CHAJES: TRADITIONALIST AND MASKIL." (Columbia University, Ph.D., 1971) shredded no less than the Maharitz Chiyas in her lengthy PhD thesis debunking as "Haskala" his non-traditional and anti-chazal views and interpretetions of agadattes. So if she could do that, what Rabbi Tropper did to Slifkin (minus a PhD) is peanuts, although his mthods were very devious and deceitful, but often that is how people are made frum, with all sorts of "tricks" -- sad to say but very true, and one hopes that the "victims" stay frum or all else all hell can break loose...

So Rabbi Tropper's past involvements with Slifkin and Gidon Busch and the Age of the Earth questions are really not so much the REAL issues as are his PRESENT state of conflict and lack of clarity about whether he wishes to be perceived as the biggest kiruv worker of the times or as the biggest enforcer of Halacha of Geirus in modern times and unfortunately HE CANNOT BE BOTH simultaneously and he cannot have it both ways. He cannot have his cake and eat it this time! And he and Dr. Tom Kaplan are having a hard time realizing this reality! Especially Dr. Kaplan who as a tycoon businessman is not used to seeing his EJF "business plan" go awry and shouted down from the left and right of the Orthodox and Haredi world. It is too much of an ego-deflator and both Rabbi Tropper and Dr. Kaplan take their egos VERY seriously.

Anyhow, there is not "one single way" to do kiruv and Rabbi Tropper has had many successes in this regard that he does not need to apologize to anyone for his kiruv work and successes, and with success there will come some failures which he is allowed to have as well. But his role as the Inquistor in chief of dayanim and batei din in the field of geirus brings out his darker side and now he is being told where to get off, and he even shows himself the door, knowing that it's bed time and curtains for bonzo the self-proclaimed EJF ubber geirus dayan who is lema'aleh mikol hadayanim since we already have one rashkebehag in the form of Rav Eliashiv shlit'a who does not need Rabbi Tropper and Dr. Tom Kaplan and their acorn-aspiring EJF a la Obama style politicking and steam-rollering and saying different things to different audiences and hoping noone either notices or dares to speak up.

The real issue is the dichotomy in Rabbi Tropper's inner psyche that he has not and cannot bridge: How to be a famous and successful kiruv worker and at the same time be an enforcer of strict bais din standards for geirus functioning as some sort of ubber dayan deciding which batei din and dayanim are strict enough, when he himself as a 100% kiruv worker does not in essence think and function in those terms. For heaven's sakes, he is married to a baalas teshuva, and he belongs in the Baal teshuva movement and must learn to leave issues of geirus to the batei din and dayanim to muddle through and sort out and not be so condescending and paternalistic towards them. "Let go, and let G-d"!
____

Plony Almony 18: I think the comment about Gideon Busch Z’L is more appropriate to be on your post regarding various keiruv approaches but I can understand why the commenter chose to put it here.

RaP: This tragic chapter should not be dragged into the discussions here because no one knows the true facts of the true state of Busch's mind and personality. Seems he was not an emotionally healthy person and every kiruv organization, indeed every college and high school has its share of horror stories and suicides, and Busch basically frazzled the cops to fire on him. NY cops are sometimes over-cautious and ready to fire and do not take chances and they cannot be blamed so quickly for what happened and neither should Rabbi Tropper be dragged into this tragic matter. It's like asking that Busch's relatives, pediatrician and pyschiatrist also be liable for not taking good enough care of him.

Plony Almony 18: She probably wanted to call attention to Tropper all-or-nothing approach to keiruv, an approach which requires total transformation, cutting off any non-orthodox connections (which includes family), shunning secular studies and arguing that you cannot be a talmid chochom and having a college degree in the some time...

RaP: So again, no need to drag the Busch saga into this. Rabbi Tropper is not unique in this regard because there are many rabbis and some institutions all over the world who do what he does. Rabbi Tropper's success stories in kiruv are far, far greater than the few failures and EVERY kiruv rabbi has many, many people who he did not make frum and went off... It is an occupational hazard.

Plony Almony 18: An approach which in cases of married couples when the couple is not on the same page, the more observant spouse is encouraged to divorce the less observant spouse instead of finding some middle ground and waiting for him or her to catch up.

RaP: This is a very touchy area and again there is no consensus and each case has to be evaluated and judged on its merits. Not just among BTs but among the frum and in the world at large every day rabbis and therapsist bring couples apart and also split them up. That is the reality. And it's no different in kiruv situations which usually involve a whole range of issues that have nothing to do with religion. This is a very complex area of life that requires great expertise and can be easily abused even by the greatest professionals, so don't blame Rabbi Tropper for another occupational hzard of being a susccessful kiruv rabbi who is forced into couples counseling.

Plony Almony 18: Many keiruv organizations (which the noted exception of Chabad) do not realize that for some people adopting stringent lifestyle, dropping out of college, adopting penguin dress would not be beneficial. Making them swallow more than they can chew would end up with disastrous results.

RaP: Why do you exempt Chabad? That shows you do not know what is happening. Chabad is a huge enterprise. The policies and methods they use in Crown Heights are not the same as in Beverly Hills. Chabad in Kefar Chabad and in Tzefas is more extreme in all areas is anything you will see in many other places. So yes, while over-all Chabad is more patient, once they feel they have won over someone they do exactly what people like Rabbi Tropper does, don't fool yourself and do not create false impressions. There is no "one way' to make people frum nor is there "one way" for how BTs should be frum. There never has been nor will there ever be. It is as varied as the human condition. And as the saying goes there will always be a need and a market for: "Different strokes for different folks"!