R' Tropper - is he good for the Jews?

While we have had some discussions about the validity of R' Tropper's approach, we have not really focused on the consequences.

R' Tropper is using geirus as a tool in kiruv. When he finds that a baal teshuva is stuck because he is married to a non-Jew he switches hats and works to have the non-Jew become a Jew. Thus he reasons it is a win win situation. The Jew becomes fully observant and his wife becomes Jewish. Their children now will add to the Jewish population instead of destroying it. The only down side, he reasons, is that the age old practice of not proselytizing needs to be bent a bit. Any problems with this he reasons are made up for by requiring the convert to adopt an Orthodox life style. Seem like a nice neat package. Why should anyone be upset with it.

Let us list the reasons.

1) He has removed the age old stigma to intermarriage. There is absolutely no consequences of intermarriage. If you ever want to legitimate it he is standing there with open arms. Of course since not all Jews want to be Orthodox - therefore he contributes to the intermarriage rate by allowing everyone to chose a non-Jewish partner without the slightest guilt or consequence. Consequences unknown. But we can reasonably assume that more Jews will intermarry with R' Tropper looking the other way - then will return to Judaism with a converted bride.

2) Let's assume that not everyone that R' Tropper converts will stay frum. Because he has such high standards and is makpid on kabbalos mitzvos - all of his converts will definitely become Jews. However the statistics from the past tell us that at least half will back slide. They will then become irreligious Jews. If he wasn't so meticulous then when the convert goes back they were never Jewish in the first place. If he wasn't so meticulous then the back sliding converts will be genuine non-Jews.

3) The consequences of having converts who are genuine Jews and were married in a genuine marriage - but who give up observance is very simple - mamzerim. Rav Moshe solved the mamzerus problem from the Reform and Conservative by saying their marriages were non valid. Similarly their converts are not valid. Not so R'Tropper's converts. However everyone of R' Tropper's converts is a potential producer of mamzerim.

4) An additional consequences in back sliding will be on the communities and families.

This is similar to the statement about Sedom. They had horrible laws - which weren't enforced until an honest judge Lot came along. It is specifically because he is makpid on keeping the laws that he is causing problems.

In sum. For R' Tropper to come along and introduce a change in the dynamic of the Jewish community he needs to show that what he is doing is beneficial. It is not enough to say that when he converts people they were frum. Rav Chaim Ozer had such a view and then 20 years later radically altered it to say that a decent beis din should not do conversions. Similarly Rav Moshe Feinstein knew all the hetirim but personally had nothing to do with geirus. What are the two, five and ten years statistics on Rabbi Troppers' converts. What is their impact on marriage and children?

EJF - Cost Benefit analysis

bandit has left a new comment on your post "EJF defended":

If the world of kiruv would be perfect and they would be concentrating on teaching people, one by one, Torah and mitzvos and they ran into the problem of intermarried couples we would understand (though not agree with) EJF's position. However, the vast majority of kiruv is half-baked and aimed at improving people's feelings towards Judaism instead of teaching them Torah. This may not be a problem (although probably is) but once we start doing other things because of kiruv we have to reevaluate. If someone out there believes kiruv to be changing lobster eaters into latke eaters he will be bringing his clients to this beis din too. When a spouse converts are they accepting all mitzvos? Are they accepting a path that leads to all mitzvos? They are statistically more likely to divorce. What will happen then? If the geyrus is kosher they may still act like goyim, not having seen their geyrus in any context other than connected to their Jewish former spouse. This can create problems with mamzeyrus. If the geyrus is not kosher we are left with more problems. For EJF to say that they only accept geyrus with KM is allowing them to create a problem and then try and create a solution. That is a dangerous approach.

As a sidebar, the Chasam Sofer writes in a letter that when fighting evil one must take care not to attack people personally for two reasons. One, because the argument makes less sense when it includes a personal attack. Two, because the evil stands on its own and even if the perpetrator dies or leaves the scene the evil must still be fought. The personal digs in these comments (both against R' Bomzer and R' Tropper and each other) detract from the weight of the argument.

One last point. The ads printed in the Jewish media have quoted lists of teshuvos supporting them. I made it my project to research them and I was shocked to see that not one proved their point. It was a good lesson to me to research everything . But the credibility of this organization took a severe beating. Who knows what other lies are being said?

Father's Jewish - try to convert?

This is an excerpt from R' Aryeh Ginzburg's sefer [pp 266-267.] As a young man he went around to gedolim with many important questions. He compiled this sefer from the answers. I personally find the sefer very frustrating since these are not teshuvos written by gedolim. Consequently there is no context or clarity. In other words you can't rely on these halacha le'maseh. It is also not valid to make diyukim in what he says. On the other hand he had very solid haskomas. Bottom line this material is thought provoking and encourages further study of the matter. The full sefer itself is available at Hebrew Books

There is a fundamental difference between what Rabbi Tropper is doing and the possible heter of a number of gedolim. As Rabbi Fuerst of Chicago has pointed out.

Are we dealing with someone who views themselves as Jewish? Someone who views themselves as Jewish and is enrolled in a Jewish school or attending kiruv meetings - is a serious problem for intermarriage. Rav Moshe Feinstein also suggests converting non-Jewish children who are attending a day school. He also says a similar heter regarding the Ethiopians in Israel who view themselves as Jewish.

On the other hand Rabbi Tropper is targeting non-Jews who have no doubt that they are not Jewish and are married to Jews. He claims that conversion is necessary for the sake of kiruv for the Jewish spouse.

Non of the gedolim mentioned advocated running after intermarried couples. In fact Rav Eliashiv explicitly stated concerning kiruv that the time honored practice has always been to ostracize such couples. Rav Eliashiv also makes an exception for a Jew who is married to a non-Jew who mistakenly thinks he/she is Jewish.

EJF - RaP's recapitulation

RaP responds to Roni's questions from a previous "EJF - Proselytizing Advertisement":
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To Roni who said... "It is overwhelming clear that you on a rampage campaign against R. Tropper"

RaP: Nope, I am not on a "rampage" and you are mistaking and confusing a serious interest in this subject and thorough analysis and misnaming it a "rampage" simply because you don't like the concluions. Stop calling names and acting "frum" and holier-than-thou and debate the points in detail, if you can.

Furthermore, if you had even bothered to read some of my other posts you will see that I have defended Rabbi Tropper many times right here on this very blog, and in depth, trying to fathom and explain where he is coming from on kiruv and geirus issues and I even took Rabbi Tropper's hashkafic point of view against the owner of this blog and some of his serious supporters in the complex and sad Rabbi Slifkin saga (but I do not support Rabbi Tropper's alleged methods in slandering Rabbi Slifkin against other gedolim.)

If you don't believe me, please see the following five posts on this blog for yourself:

1) My post at "Rabbi Tropper & Prague - what happened?" at where I tried to explain Rabbi Tropper's complex position that became a new post at:

2) "R' Tropper - Kiruv vs Geirus/ RaP's analysis" at See my comments there that which shows my deepest sympathies with Rabbi Tropper's present struggles:

"Rabbi Tropper is from those kiruv workers (his main stock in trade) who works using the hard-sell method and he is very good at what he does in kiruv and is famous for his heady, strong-willed, blusterry speeches meant to bowl over his listeners, and yes he can be very intimidating and insulting to his listeners who may not share his moods. (Guess what: This is actually good kiruv believe it or not, because it is prone to induce a mind-shift as a form of "shock therapy" in his listeners opening them up to new Torah ideas they had never heard before), although he can also take it slow and gentle when he works with very diverse audiences who he knows will not go for his shock tactics. And yes, he generally holds that those who become his disci[les must adhere to quick adherence to his utterances and rules. Rabbi Tropper's kiruv methods as such are not an issue in this dialogue, nor do I think that his role in getting Rabbi Slifkin's books off the frum radar screen has anything to do with the current set of "Kiruv vs Geirus" issues that are riling Rabbi Tropper and confusing those who come face to face with him today because right now the man is a walking dichotomy. A sort of split personality, not fully conscious of the depth of his inner turmoil and extent of the self-contradiction he is spilling wherever he goes nowadays, as his kiruv side battles and tries to reconcile itself with the issues of geirus he has now immersed himself in for better or worse, and he is in over his head this time. While Rabbi tropper is agadol in the kiruv world, he is a zero in the world of dayanim and batei din. And yes, he is a big talmid chochme, but most rosh yeshivas (which he also claims to be of Kol Yaakov Yeshiva) are not involved in shimush lema'aseh and they are not dayanim. You do not go to a rosh yeshiva if you want to get divorced or are looking for a geirus. Rosh yeshivas are generally never poskim except for what goes on inside their yeshivas, and unlike a kiruv worker who can and MUST walk all over the range looking for people to mekarev, a dayan on the other hand, MUST contain himself and restrict himself to a very narrow venue, the Bais Din and its confines where he sits in judgment of cases and of others. In short, how to reconcile Kiruv ("drawing people close") and Richuk ("distancing" people)? How to reconcile the need to be a sweet Kiruv Worker (who must always be winning JEWISH friends and influencing people to eventually become/morph into being Haredi/Yeshivish) and on the other hand with a conflicting task, the enforcing the rules and dictates of Batei Din in regard to conversions that requires, per force, the distancing and pushing away of people, certianly gentiles and if need be even the Jews attached to those gentiles."

3) "R' Slifkin - context of ban /Ra" at where I even say:

"You know, this is where you have to admire Rabbi Tropper's kiruv derech that at least he does not lose himself or his students on all this fake double-talk about having some sort of allegiance to science and secular knowledge when as he rightly holds, Torah is not a substance that can be mixed or diluted with anything else to prove its powers and validity" and defending him "It's now le'acaher hama'aseh, and to get back to the point, Rabbi Tropper, at the end of the day is just a cog in what turned out to be pretty hefty Haredi machine. What can you do, that is just the way it goes sometimes."

4) "Kiruv I - The end of kiruv as we know it!" at l where I state that

"Rabbi Leib Tropper went in the other direction, feeling that both Ohr Somaych and Aish HaTorah had lost sight of their main mandate of basing everying ONLY on intense Gemora learning and rapid paced transformation to being a Ben Torah (not a bad goal but not as attractive to the nasses as Aish HaTorah's appeal, as is evident.)...Rabbi Tropper's Kol Yaakov yeshiva also in Monsey that stresses only the learning element, even though it does have an outrecah "Horizons" program...Rabbi Tropper is a venturer because with his EJF program to welcome in by doing outreach the non-Jewish spouses of interfaith couples under "strict" Beth Din auspices (actually fueling the flames of the process, as it were) he is doing a classical juggling act, that on the one hand he is trying to preempt and ward off attacks from the Haredi world he admires and respects and needs but at the the same time he is caving in to the interfaith flood at the gate and in this he is no different to ALL other Kiruv workers out there today trying to cope with the flood tide of interfaith students (meaning students from mixed marriages or intermarrieds themseleves, or those with non-Halachic conversions), and instead of calling a spade a spade and seeing the writing on the wall, that THE AGE OF KIRUV AS WE KNOW IT IS OVER..."And much of the above became the new post at:

5) "Kiruv II - Paradigm change for outreach workers" at

So at this time, unless you can acknowledge otherwise, it is obvious that you have not been reading those posts but just come here and make a few belly-aching comments simply because you don't like a few things you hear here.

"and the more you attack every single person associated with him an even attack Rav REuven Feinstein shows your even more your irrational campaign."

RaP: Can you point to the alleged "irrationality" you IMAGINE? Is the owner of this blog Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn "irrational", who posted I, II and and many other posts like this and who posts his and others' comments after serious review of each comment and who opposes the EJF effort and Rabbi Tropper's methods? Is Rav Moshe Shternbuch "irrational" for opposing efforts, see "Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Authorized Translation" and "Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Kiruv for non-Jews and "Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad" like those of Rabbi Tropper and the EJF? Is the entire BADATZ of the powerful Eidah HaChareidis "irrational" (are Horav Meir Brandsorfer, Horav Moshe Sternbuch, Horav Naftoli Frenkal, Horav Avrohom Yitzchok Ulman, Horav Yakov Mendel Yorovitch, Horav Yehoushua Rosenberg ALL "irrational" too for signing it?) see "Bedatz letter regarding conversion" and of taking the extreme measure of openly, see "Bedatz letter regarding conversion" and rebuking and warning dayanim and batei din all over the world who were Recipients of its official warning letters and giving Publicicty to it, authorising its dissemination online through this very blog by Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn. It has been Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn who has asked for written Halachik clarifications from Rabbi Tropper and EJF and none has been forthcoming, so take it up with him if you think he and others being "irrational" for asking for a written reason al pi din and for his efforts EJF tried to smear him, see "EJF smear campaign"

"While I unerstan the reservations against R. Tropper an his plans,"

RaP: You do? Like what? This may be the seed of some fruitful discussions perhaps, don't you think? instead of hiding behind smokescreens and blaming others of being "irrational" when you have no good RATIONAL and LOGICAL and FACTUAL arguments or proofs of your own to produce, so far.

"your voice of opposition shows that there is more at stake for his critics that are far from "leshem shamayim."

RaP: You are wrong and Rabbi Tropper has yet to prove that everything he does is "leshem shamayim" and not coming from his notorious over-sized ego that brooks no opposition and who yells at anyone who dares oppose him.

Rabbi Tropper does not need "defenders" that make him look like he is the "poor little victim" of something when he is not.

Rabbi Tropper and Dr. Tom Kaplan sat down and decided on their own on a new scheme, that went far beyond in a quantum leap from Rabbi Tropper's world of kiruv and his Baal teshuva Kol Yaakov Yeshiva (which he ran very well) and would now branch into the world of batei din and geirus (based on many reasons that I have discussed in my other posts) that they called "EJF" and how to sell it to rabbonim and to the frum world and of course to the world of gentiles who were married or hitched to Jews and who would now be targeted for being inspired to get "real" conversions at Batei Din, and how to implement all this as if this was a "product" like Coca Cola that was being launched based on a business plan with lots of financing and professionalism behind it. So let's get real please and not talk like babies.

"With regards to Rabbi Bomzer (which i can clearly see that what bothers you is that R. Tropper an many Rabbonim that participate in EJF attack the fake an phony conversions of people like R. H Bomzer),"

RaP: Quite honestly, nobody on this blog could give a hoot about Rabbi Bomzer because if you had read all the posts seriously you will see that most posters here are against ANY kind of easy conversions no matter from who, be it Rabbi Bomzer, Chabad, kiruv organizations and workers, the RCA, the Israeli Rabbanut and now including Rabbi Tropper and his EJF. So cut out the nonsense because noone on this blog cares about or has anything to do with Rabbi Bomzer.

"he is known in many circles for his false conversions where he converts people 1) knowing ahead of time that they are not interested to keep torah and mitzvot (not only that they have lapses in the future); do not keep shabbat, kashrut, taharat ha mishpacha from the very outset. 3) Actually the rabbanut over ten years ago has written that his conversion needs bedikah! for his reputation is actually very well known, an most importantly his fees are also known!"

RaP: All this is interesting, but not to the point and only proves that YOU want to now smear Rabbi Bomzer. If you want to get into these kind of discussions, then you will discover that most situations involving geirus involve matters of self-interest somewhere along the line. It was Rabbi Tropper's connection with Tom Kaplan whose sister married to a man of Hispanic ancestry (Otto Aguiar) and who needed a conversion for himself and son ("Guma Kaplan Aguiar is the son of Ellen Kaplan.") that was a huge factor dragging Rabbi Tropper into this whole EJF adventure, see "Who is behind Eternal Jewish Family?" and "Is Eternal Jewish Family the center of the universe?" It may be rabbis who need money and charge fees, or interfaith couples who lie about their true intentions just to fool the dayanim, entire rabbinates and batei din that are not respected and are negated by other batei din, like happeened to Rabbi Drukman at the hands of Rav sherman and the High Court of the Rabbanut and Rabbi Tropper at the hands of the Bais Din of the Eidah Hachareidis for attempts at working to facilitate mass conversions. So while talking about RabbI bomezer may be true and interesting it is not much different to all the other problems that will arise for rabbis in the geirus business. So again, quit harping about Rabbi Bomzer, because he is already history, noone here really cares about him, and the focus is now on Rabbi Troppe and EJF and it would be apprecaited if you can expa=lain to us what Rabbi Tropper and EJF are doing that is so great that in the meantime so many people are having genuine Halachic issues with it.

"Continue to defend him and other similar rabbis"

RaP: Noone is defedning anyone here if you haven't noticed. This is a forum for discussion and you are welcome to join it instead of standing on the sidelines making silly comments.

"an attack vehemently Rav Reuven Feinstein and others with such disparagment and everyone will see clearly publicity's agenda!"

RaP: Again you fail to understand that this is a serious matter that is under discussion and just by saying that Rabbi Reuven feinstein like Rabbi tropper and wishes him well, while on this blog Rabbi Tropper has been asked dozens of times to produce WRITTEN haskomas from Rav Reuven or Rav Dovid Feinstein and he still does not, must mean that RabbI tropper does not have a written haskoma to do outreach to gentiles in order to get them to convert and marry Jewish spouses. This is no different to learning any sugya where the subject is open and we must look for answers and if no official answers are given it is possible to speculate for motives that require greater clarity. Can you answer this question please: Does or has Rav Reuven shlit"a or Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit"a or any institutions they head ever received financial backing and donations from Dr. Tom Kaplan and one his family or any businesses and foundations they head? Let's get real with some real questions instead of your bobba-maises.

"Rabbi Bomzer is not unique and he can't be blamed for every conversion that went off the rails."

RaP: Right, and Rabbi Tropper is not unique and he cannot be blamed for every person he once mekareved and then went off the rails. And just like I would not blame Rabbi Tropper for his kiruv failures noone can blame any serious Orthodox rabbi who is a dayan for conversions when converts go off the rails because just like SOME Baalei teshuva fail in the end to stay frum, many geirim in the end fail in the end to stick to their commitments to be truly Halachically Jewish. And guess what, every religious Bar Mitzva boy starts out good but by the time his life is over many Jews are off the derech, and it is not always the fathers' and mothers' who must be blamed. But while all that is intersting, this is not what this discussion is about, which is the determination of Rabbi Tropper and RJF to pursue mass conversions for goyim, which even for the best and frummest of reasons, MUST result in a huge catatsrophe for Klal Yisroel, and per force mass Chillul hashem in its wake, and he should be convinced to stop now at all costs, before his "solutions" and "cures" become worse than the diseases and plagues of assimilation and intermarriage.

All men are equal? - RaP vs. R' Micha Berger

Recipients and Publicity wrote: concerning "R' Tropper - Kiruv vs Geirus/ RaP's analysis":

RaP had written in the above post: "But what to do when confronted with interfaith couples where the Jewish one needs kiruv and the non-Jew needs conversion? This is not an easy quandary for all concerned but at rock bottom, regardless of what the interfaith couples are told or imagine, the gentile is NOT a "tinok shenishba" and has NO neshama while the Jew has a 100% holy neshama, which the converting gentile presumably desires. While male Jew can count for a minyan as would the greatest gadol on Earth, as would a 100% Halachically Jewish mother (even if she was anti-religious) give birth to a 100% Jew, on the other hand a goy MUST be excluded from a minyan. These are facts life and Jewish Law."

R' MB: Didn't HQBH make a point of having us all come from Adam so that things like this would not be said?

RaP:What micha said is really very surprising:

RaP: Yes indeed that is the classical answer and it is true, but why do you ignore the fact that Judaism holds that a non-Jew does not have THAT neshama that a Jew does have and indeed it is exactly THAT neshama that the sincere potential convert wants to have and should/does get upon immersion in the Bais Din's mikva when THAT neshama that he did NOT have enters into him/her upon immersion in the mikva of geirus. That is all I was saying and there was no need of you to move the issue into illogical non-relevant humanistic and globalistic egalitarian drive, when you could have just let the obvious Halachic reality stand without unnecessary questioning by you.

R' MB: One may argue whether the difference is qualitative or quantitative. Or whether it's inherent, or a product of our being part of a mission (whether a willing part or not).

RaP: These are just nice words that have nothing to do with anything, I am afraid. Why are you panicking and why do have so much trouble when THE key difference between a Yid a Goy is pointed out? I.E.: That a Yid has a Holy Neshama and Goy does not. That is why a Yid is a Yid and Goy is Goy. What don't I get here?

R' MB: But to deny that every human being has a tzelem E-lokim... The Tanya says such things, but I can't think of anyone else who does.

RaP: The "tzelem E-lokim" was not mentioned here nor was it discussed. And as you know, the use of the phrase and notion of "tzelem E-lokim" requires definition and context depending how it is to be used, but one this is for sure, the idea that somehow gentiles may have a degree of the the sublime "tzelem E-lokim" does NOT mean that they automatically can be assumed to have a neshama as well upon their desire to convert to Judaism. Far from it. Regardless of the sublime and noble Godly origin and roots of all mankind, to use the analogy of the Jewish sages, a gentile is in essence like "water" and only upon proper Halachic conversion does that gentile become "wine" when he/she finally immerses in the mikva as if it was a literal miracle of birth. Call it the ultimate BORN AGAIN phenomenon (of course the Christians stole this idea like almost all their best ideas from Judaism.)

So, sure, according to the Pantheistic and Panentheistic (Panentheism posits that God exists and interpenetrates every part of nature, and timelessly extends beyond as well. Panentheism is distinguished from pantheism, which holds that God is synonymous with the material universe) views of Tanya, which posits sparks of G-d in everything, but even Tanya teaches that while while animals have the nefesh habahamis and humans have nefesh, it is ONLY Jews who have a higher complete neshama, the "neshama Elokis sichlis" as the MAHARAL of Prague labels it most definitively, and it is precisely THAT "neshama Elokis sichlis" that a true ger tzedek receives upon the completion of a successful geirus and more specifically upon immersion in the mikva which for the ger is considered THE literal moment of BIRTH as a Jew when the "neshama Elokis sichlis" enters into hi/her just as it does when a Jewish baby is born to a 100% Halachicaly Jewish mother. And hence the expression of the Chazal: "Ger shenisgayer ketinok/kekatan shenolad dami" ("[a] convert who converts [is exactly similar to] like [a] newborn [JEWISH] infant/child") (Yevamot 48b).

R' Tropper - Kiruv vs Geirus/ RaP's analysis

Guest Post by Recipients and Publicity: See previous posting on Rabbi Tropper

Kiruv process versus Geirus process: Source of Rabbi Tropper's dissonance.

Plony Almony 18 [makes some excellent and valid points that deserve more attention because they point to a huge dichotomy that lies beneath two huge and inter-related subjects: KIRUV and GEIRUS.

Kiruv and Geirus are as different as chalk and cheese. Making a yid become frum is not the same thing as being megayer a goy. Many (even kiruv rabbis) make a huge error in logic and metzius ("reality" and "fact") by thinking that there is a similarity between kiruv and geirus and they assume the same methods and tools of kiruv should and can be used for geirus. Only up to a point.

But what to do when confronted with interfaith couples where the Jewish one needs kiruv and the non-Jew needs conversion? This is not an easy quandary for all concerned but at rock bottom, regardless of what the interfaith couples are told or imagine, the gentile is NOT a "tinok shenishba" and has NO neshama while the Jew has a 100% holy neshama, which the converting gentile presumably desires. While male Jew can count for a minyan as would the greatest gadol on Earth, as would a 100% Halachically Jewish mother (even if she was anti-religious) give birth to a 100% Jew, on the other hand a goy MUST be excluded from a minyan. These are facts life and Jewish Law.

I have touched on some pertinent deeper issues in the posts that Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah had kindly posted at http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/07/kiruv-end-of-kiruv-as-we-know-it.html

That:

"...the real wars are among the Orthodox themselves, manifested more than anywhere else in each faction's attititude to geirus/conversion and its sister-ship kiruv/outreach, because as we see in today's world of the 21st century, there is turmoil in both how to mekarev (to do outreach) and how to megayer (to do conversions) and they are inter-related in many ways and on may levels, most of all in the real world of real lives as we see from all the problems and issues facing Orthodox outreach rabbis and outreach workers..."

And at http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/07/kiruv-ii-paradigm-change-for-outreach.html

"...Rabbi Tropper is a venturer because with his EJF program to welcome in by doing outreach the non-Jewish spouses of interfaith couples under "strict" Beth Din auspices (actually fueling the flames of the process, as it were) he is doing a classical juggling act, that on the one hand he is trying to preempt and ward off attacks from the Haredi world he admires and respects and needs but at the the same time he is caving in to the interfaith flood at the gate and in this he is no different to ALL other Kiruv workers out there today trying to cope with the flood tide of interfaith students (meaning students from mixed marriages or intermarrieds themseleves, or those with non-Halachic conversions), and instead of calling a spade a spade and seeing the writing on the wall, that THE AGE OF KIRUV AS WE KNOW IT IS OVER and maybe even walking away from it, he tries to to finesse it (Dr. Tom Kaplan has lots of money and what else is there to do for a living if not helping millionares find solutions to their intermarried problems?), and that is why he was slapped by the BADATS who then sent out letters of warning to all those Recipients and asking for Publicity that Rabbi Tropper's agenda and methods were not part of the solution but were more part of the problem...."

While the two fields of KIRUV and GEIRUS over-lap and are inter-connected in our times, yet they are two separate and often contradicatory entities. What scholars call DISSONANT:

While KIRUV is all about "drawing closer" (literally "lekarev" or "to be mekarev") in contradistinction, GEIRUS is about "qualifying for Jewish citizenship" (lagur = to become a "dweller/sojourner/to live among" = "to become a 'national' of the Jewish people according to its laws, as defined by the Torah and the Halachah.)

GEIRUS requires a modicum or even a lot of RICHUK (pushing away/rejection), the opposite of "kiruv" and potential converts MUST first be STRONGLY encouraged NOT to become geirim. As an historical example, Rav Yitzchok Hutner used to like to tell over the famous story from Rav A.Y. Kook about "der ger fun Paris" about a Parisian gentile who sought to become a ger but whom Rav Kook succeeeded in convincing to become Ben Noach instead and who when he ever came to meet Rav Kook on a Shabbat would come with a lit cigar to prove that he had not converted and had preferred to remain a goy. Rav Kook and Rav Hutner took great pride in the fact that a gentile was persuaded NOT to convert! Too bad not too many modern rabbis think and act like this in the world's egalitarian melting pot poly-glot culture.

That is why dispassionate legalistic cool sceptical suspicious and scholarly dayanim on a reliable Bais Din are the ideal choice for deciding matters of conversion, and certainly NOT charismatic rabbis with magnetic hypnotic charming personalities and winning ways who have toiled all their lives in Kiruv.

The dayanim on a Bais Din convened to hear and decide upon cases on conversion do not (or should not) care about hurting a prospective convert's "feelings" by rejecting the application/s to convert. This modus operandi is very UNLIKE kiruv workers who are trained to recruit, lure, beguile, make happy with lots of smiles and free hospitality and "courting", and (for lack of a better word) "missionize" leshem shomayim (hopefully!) secular and non-Orthodox Jews to become frum.

Kiruv workers have a whole range of methods relating to "how to win friends and influence people" ranging from soft-sell to hard-sell, from those who practice a gentle moderate gradualist approach to those who believe in conjuring up ex-nihilo "overnight wonders" that are obligated in immediate compliance to a rebbe/rav/yeshiva.

Rabbi Tropper is from those kiruv workers (his main stock in trade) who works using the hard-sell method and he is very good at what he does in kiruv and is famous for his heady, strong-willed, blusterry speeches meant to bowl over his listeners, and yes he can be very intimidating and insulting to his listeners who may not share his moods. (Guess what: This is actually good kiruv believe it or not, because it is prone to induce a mind-shift as a form of "shock therapy" in his listeners opening them up to new Torah ideas they had never heard before), although he can also take it slow and gentle when he works with very diverse audiences who he knows will not go for his shock tactics. And yes, he generally holds that those who become his disci[les must adhere to quick adherence to his utterances and rules.

Rabbi Tropper's kiruv methods as such are not an issue in this dialogue, nor do I think that his role in getting Rabbi Slifkin's books off the frum radar screen has anything to do with the current set of "Kiruv vs Geirus" issues that are riling Rabbi Tropper and confusing those who come face to face with him today because right now the man is a walking dichotomy. A sort of split personality, not fully conscious of the depth of his inner turmoil and extent of the self-contradiction he is spilling wherever he goes nowadays, as his kiruv side battles and tries to reconcile itself with the issues of geirus he has now immersed himself in for better or worse, and he is in over his head this time. While Rabbi tropper is agadol in the kiruv world, he is a zero in the world of dayanim and batei din. And yes, he is a big talmid chochme, but most rosh yeshivas (which he also claims to be of Kol Yaakov Yeshiva) are not involved in shimush lema'aseh and they are not dayanim. You do not go to a rosh yeshiva if you want to get divorced or are looking for a geirus. Rosh yeshivas are generally never poskim except for what goes on inside their yeshivas, and unlike a kiruv worker who can and MUST walk all over the range looking for people to mekarev, a dayan on the other hand, MUST contain himself and restrict himself to a very narrow venue, the Bais Din and its confines where he sits in judgment of cases and of others.

In short, how to reconcile Kiruv ("drawing people close") and Richuk ("distancing" people)? How to reconcile the need to be a sweet Kiruv Worker (who must always be winning JEWISH friends and influencing people to eventually become/morph into being Haredi/Yeshivish) and on the other hand with a conflicting task, the enforcing the rules and dictates of Batei Din in regard to conversions that requires, per force, the distancing and pushing away of people, certianly gentiles and if need be even the Jews attached to those gentiles.

Quite a Faustian predicament that Rabbi Tropper does not seem to have resolved for himself. While the Reform and Conservatives "have sold their soul to the devil" and are accepting gentiles to easily into the Jewish people ch"sh r"l and many in the Modern Orthodox and Religious Zionist movements are teetering on the edge of a slippery slope and look like they have thrown in the towel as they water down the halacha and make appearing before a Bais Din a mere formailty and an exercise in rubber-stamping by the Bais Din that has no standards, there are those poskim, dayanim and batei din alive TODAY like in the BADATZ/Rabbi Shternbuch/Rabbi Sherman/Rav Eliashiv/Rav Nochum Eisenstein & Beit Din Le'Inyanei Giur who INSIST on strict/er Halachic standards and are willing to oppose and fight against the tide of de facto and de jure assimilationism and intermarriage and not join it in any way shape size or form (while seemingly Rabbi Tropper THINKS and alleges he is speaking for them, but his actions at EJF over the years say otherwise).

So what Rabbi Tropper did or not do at the time that led to Rabbi Slifkin's books being banned in the frum world are essentially immaterial. For sometimes to catch a ganef one must act like a ganef, and ultimately the Torah world is better off without giving legitimacy to the pseudo-scientific makeover of midrashim, agadettes and Chazals by neophytes.

Indeed Rebbetzin Bruria Hutner David, principal of BJJ and the holder of a doctorate from Colombia University, see the full thesis at http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~spotter/david-chajes.pdf "THE DUAL ROLE OF RABBI ZVI HIRSCH CHAJES: TRADITIONALIST AND MASKIL." (Columbia University, Ph.D., 1971) shredded no less than the Maharitz Chiyas in her lengthy PhD thesis debunking as "Haskala" his non-traditional and anti-chazal views and interpretetions of agadattes. So if she could do that, what Rabbi Tropper did to Slifkin (minus a PhD) is peanuts, although his mthods were very devious and deceitful, but often that is how people are made frum, with all sorts of "tricks" -- sad to say but very true, and one hopes that the "victims" stay frum or all else all hell can break loose...

So Rabbi Tropper's past involvements with Slifkin and Gidon Busch and the Age of the Earth questions are really not so much the REAL issues as are his PRESENT state of conflict and lack of clarity about whether he wishes to be perceived as the biggest kiruv worker of the times or as the biggest enforcer of Halacha of Geirus in modern times and unfortunately HE CANNOT BE BOTH simultaneously and he cannot have it both ways. He cannot have his cake and eat it this time! And he and Dr. Tom Kaplan are having a hard time realizing this reality! Especially Dr. Kaplan who as a tycoon businessman is not used to seeing his EJF "business plan" go awry and shouted down from the left and right of the Orthodox and Haredi world. It is too much of an ego-deflator and both Rabbi Tropper and Dr. Kaplan take their egos VERY seriously.

Anyhow, there is not "one single way" to do kiruv and Rabbi Tropper has had many successes in this regard that he does not need to apologize to anyone for his kiruv work and successes, and with success there will come some failures which he is allowed to have as well. But his role as the Inquistor in chief of dayanim and batei din in the field of geirus brings out his darker side and now he is being told where to get off, and he even shows himself the door, knowing that it's bed time and curtains for bonzo the self-proclaimed EJF ubber geirus dayan who is lema'aleh mikol hadayanim since we already have one rashkebehag in the form of Rav Eliashiv shlit'a who does not need Rabbi Tropper and Dr. Tom Kaplan and their acorn-aspiring EJF a la Obama style politicking and steam-rollering and saying different things to different audiences and hoping noone either notices or dares to speak up.

The real issue is the dichotomy in Rabbi Tropper's inner psyche that he has not and cannot bridge: How to be a famous and successful kiruv worker and at the same time be an enforcer of strict bais din standards for geirus functioning as some sort of ubber dayan deciding which batei din and dayanim are strict enough, when he himself as a 100% kiruv worker does not in essence think and function in those terms. For heaven's sakes, he is married to a baalas teshuva, and he belongs in the Baal teshuva movement and must learn to leave issues of geirus to the batei din and dayanim to muddle through and sort out and not be so condescending and paternalistic towards them. "Let go, and let G-d"!
____

Plony Almony 18: I think the comment about Gideon Busch Z’L is more appropriate to be on your post regarding various keiruv approaches but I can understand why the commenter chose to put it here.

RaP: This tragic chapter should not be dragged into the discussions here because no one knows the true facts of the true state of Busch's mind and personality. Seems he was not an emotionally healthy person and every kiruv organization, indeed every college and high school has its share of horror stories and suicides, and Busch basically frazzled the cops to fire on him. NY cops are sometimes over-cautious and ready to fire and do not take chances and they cannot be blamed so quickly for what happened and neither should Rabbi Tropper be dragged into this tragic matter. It's like asking that Busch's relatives, pediatrician and pyschiatrist also be liable for not taking good enough care of him.

Plony Almony 18: She probably wanted to call attention to Tropper all-or-nothing approach to keiruv, an approach which requires total transformation, cutting off any non-orthodox connections (which includes family), shunning secular studies and arguing that you cannot be a talmid chochom and having a college degree in the some time...

RaP: So again, no need to drag the Busch saga into this. Rabbi Tropper is not unique in this regard because there are many rabbis and some institutions all over the world who do what he does. Rabbi Tropper's success stories in kiruv are far, far greater than the few failures and EVERY kiruv rabbi has many, many people who he did not make frum and went off... It is an occupational hazard.

Plony Almony 18: An approach which in cases of married couples when the couple is not on the same page, the more observant spouse is encouraged to divorce the less observant spouse instead of finding some middle ground and waiting for him or her to catch up.

RaP: This is a very touchy area and again there is no consensus and each case has to be evaluated and judged on its merits. Not just among BTs but among the frum and in the world at large every day rabbis and therapsist bring couples apart and also split them up. That is the reality. And it's no different in kiruv situations which usually involve a whole range of issues that have nothing to do with religion. This is a very complex area of life that requires great expertise and can be easily abused even by the greatest professionals, so don't blame Rabbi Tropper for another occupational hzard of being a susccessful kiruv rabbi who is forced into couples counseling.

Plony Almony 18: Many keiruv organizations (which the noted exception of Chabad) do not realize that for some people adopting stringent lifestyle, dropping out of college, adopting penguin dress would not be beneficial. Making them swallow more than they can chew would end up with disastrous results.

RaP: Why do you exempt Chabad? That shows you do not know what is happening. Chabad is a huge enterprise. The policies and methods they use in Crown Heights are not the same as in Beverly Hills. Chabad in Kefar Chabad and in Tzefas is more extreme in all areas is anything you will see in many other places. So yes, while over-all Chabad is more patient, once they feel they have won over someone they do exactly what people like Rabbi Tropper does, don't fool yourself and do not create false impressions. There is no "one way' to make people frum nor is there "one way" for how BTs should be frum. There never has been nor will there ever be. It is as varied as the human condition. And as the saying goes there will always be a need and a market for: "Different strokes for different folks"!

Rabbi Tropper & Prague - what happened?

There was a recent conference of European rabbis in Prague. The focus of the conference was officially on two things - remembrance of the Holocaust and Kiruv. But there was also a discussion of conversion Rabbi Tropper had been invited to speak - however the strong negative reaction to his speech resulted in his leaving in the middle of his drasha. Ostensibly Rabbi Tropper was interested in investing some of EJF's money in European kiruv efforts. Why would anyone be upset about a wealthy benefactor?

Some of what I am saying is conjecture but it is built upon solid facts. The facts are not in dispute - but my interpretation might be. This is also not a tale about the good guys vs. the bad guys. Everyone involved wears a black hat and dark suit.

If you will remember back a few years there was a turning point that will probably be remembered in history books as the Slifkin affair or by others as the Making of a Gadol affair. R' Slifkin raised questions from Science against our Mesorah and presented answers. He dealt with such things as the age of the universe. His approach and explanations were at one time very welcome in the world of kiruv. But then they migrated into the mainstream. Gedolim such as Rav Moshe Sternbuch and Rav Moshe Shapiro were disturbed by the familiarity with which R' Slifkin spoke about our sages and their supposed fallibility in knowledge. Similarly there were many gedolim who were outraged about Rav Nosson Kaminetsky's stories about gedolim which conveyed their human foibles. The awesome barrier which separated us from the gedolim was breached. The enemy was no longer outside but were people honored as insiders. Both of these rabbis were viciously slandered. [Rav Nosson Kaminetsky asked me to clarify that the rabbis who are against R' Slifkin are not necessarily against him. In particular he has a very close relationship with Rav Sternbuch who greatly appreciates his book - while saying that there are clearly changes that need to be made]

One of the most dedicated crusaders against R' Slifkin was Rabbi Tropper. He convinced Rav Dovid Feinstein and others that R' Slifkin's approach was dangerous by describing two of his students who had gone off the derech because of their reading of his books. While the students in fact did not go off the derech because of R' Slifkin - they served their purpose. Rabbi Tropper is a zealot. A man driven by a vision of the way things should be, must be. A man who is driven by a pure and simple understanding of Truth - and his indispensable role in achieving it.

Let's go forward in time to last year's EJF conference in Washington D.C. It was massively publicized with cover photos and large articles describing in detail who was there as well as the speeches. The conference will go down in history for the speech given that said that whoever believes that the world is more than 6000 years old - can not be a dayan for geirus. A rabbi who wore colored shirts was not to participate in a beis din for conversion. Here was a major weapon to be wielded against those who didn't share Rabbi Tropper's vision of Yiddisheit - i.e. the Modern Orthodox as well as many American Chareidim. The point of the conference was geirus and the universal standardization according to the standards of Rabbi Tropper. Rabbi Tropper had and has a lot of money due to his backing by billionaire Tom Kaplan. Many of the participants in fact went primarily to receive a significant amount of money from R' Tropper. Rabbi Tropper drew a line in the sand and said, "If you want to participate in my universal conversion program - you must accept my beliefs in these matters." Ignored or not noticed was Rabbi Tropper's advocacy of proselytization for intermarried couples and their non-Jewish kids. This was strongly denounced by Rav Moshe Sternbuch as well as all the other members of the Bedatz. But I digress.

Last year there was also the surrender of the RCA - the Modern Orthodox American Rabbis to the Chief rabbinate or to Rav Eliashiv's standards of geirus. Something which even many Modern Orthodox rabbis realized was necessary. None the less it represented the serious submission of a significant number of rabbis to a handful of Israeli authorities who don't share the same vision of Yiddishkeit or the world.

It is now November 2008. So now we have Rabbi Tropper - a world famous rabbi with a lot of money. A lot less power as the result of the strong criticism of the Bedatz against his approach - but still a force to be reckoned with.

He is invited to speak in Prague. He comes with the resources, desire and need to invest money in kiruv [?] in Europe. All are waiting anxiously to hear what he wants to do and how. But instead of a reasoned discussion of the issues and the various views and what he would like to do and what he would like to learn from them - he starts lecturing them. He lectures them about their shortcomings and failures.

But most of all he attacks the Modern Orthodox rabbis - those who don't share his vision of Yiddishkeit. He attacks all those who don't accept his standards of geirus. There were many people who were greatly embarrassed by his rudeness and insensitivity. He is perceived as the proverbial bull in a china shop. There are many who are furious. He comes not to work together with the Europeans rabbis but rather to dictate to them. He is lecturing them as the old school master to a bunch of kids who just got caught violating the rules.

He becomes aware of their anger at his comments. He defends himself - but it is too late. He loses it and walks out of the angry assembly in the middle of his presentation in great irritation. There is even a petition circulated to ban his future attendance of the meetings. He came to conquer and command and instead he was rejected.

A parallel event was happening with Chief Rabbi Amar who similarly was deliberately held at arm's length by the European rabbis. They now see their salvation from within - and resent the condescension of outsiders who have no understanding of Europe and what impact Israeli chareidi rules have on this foreign place.

Eternal Jewish Family - 2 day conference (Lubicom)

Yeshiva World Reports:

A distinguished group of Dayanim from Eretz Yisroel and Europe will participate in a two-day conference on November 2-4 at the Downtown Marriott in Philadelphia. The third Dayanim Conference is sponsored by the Eternal Jewish Family International and the Lillian Jean Kaplan Jewish Pride Through Education Project of Horizons, an internationally recognized kiruv and Torah education center based in Monsey, headed by Harav Leib Tropper, Rosh Yeshiva of Kol Yaakov.

The overseas guests will include Dayan Avrohom Sherman, Chief Dayan of Israel’s Supreme Rabbinical Court, Dayan Raphoel Eliyahu Aisherig (Chief Rabbinate, Israel),  Dayan Chanoch Ehrentrau, Chairman of the Conference of European Rabbis and Dayan Menachem Gelley (UK). Some 40 dayanim and Roshei Yeshiva will participate in the conference which will air some of the important emerging halachic issues that constantly come to the fore on universally accepted conversion standards in intermarriage. All but some of the dayanim at the conference are part of a growing network of independent batei din in North America that have adopted the geirus standards of leading poskim, as is being promulgated by EJF International.

The conference will be opened by Harav Shmuel Kaminetsky, Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a member of the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah of Agudas Yisroel. Also addressing the conference will be Harav Reuven Feinstein, Rosh Yeshiva of Mesivta of Staten Island and Chairman of the Halachic Committee of EJF, Harav Dovid Olewski, Rosh Yeshiva of the Gerer Mesivta (Brooklyn) Harav Betzalel Tuvia Wettenstein (Belzer Dayan of Monsey)and Rabbi Eliyahu Levin (Lakewood).

The topics to be aired will include halachic and practical applications of many contemporary issues, such as children of mixed marriages, including enrollment in yeshivas and Jewish day schools; adopted non-Jewish children who reach Bar/Bas Mitzvah; working with Jewish spouses who were either frum from birth or baalei tshuvah; administering a bais din that is involved in geirus; and what constitutes geirus lechumrah and geirus al pi sofek.

Harav Tropper, chairman of the Rabbinic Committee of EJF, said that this important conference will allow the rabbonim and dayanim the opportunity to hear divrei halacha from prominent dayanim in the field as well as to exchange experiences of the various botei din. The conference discussions will be based on the principles of geirus as dictated by such leading Torah luminaries as Harav Sholem Yosef Elyashiv and the piskei halacha of the late venerable sage Harav Moshe Feinstein zt”l, as is conveyed by his son Harav Reuven Feinstein, Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshiva of Staten Island, who serves as the chairman of the halachic committee of EJF.

The presence of the dayanim from Europe is particularly noteworthy in light of the recent partnership between the Conference of European Rabbis, headed by Dayan Eherentrau and the Eternal Jewish Family International, headed by Harav Tropper, to step up efforts in Europe to head off problematic conversions in intermarriage. While EJF does not set up Botei Din, it works closely with a network of Botei Din in Israel and Europe. In the US, the Botei Din function in such cities as Baltimore, Monsey, Philadelphia, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, New York,  Los Angeles, Milwaukee, Montreal, Miami, Lakewood, Dallas, Toronto, Houston, and Vancouver

Concurrent with the Dayanim Conference will be a pilot one-day seminar for women mentors who work with women candidates for geirus in intermarriage. Many of the mentors who will be participating from all over the country are also involved in kiruv work in general while others are specifically focused on the education of conversion candidates once a decision is made to pursue a universally accepted conversion. The seminar, coordinated by Mrs. Leah Roberts of EJF, will delve into many important issues that the mentors confront on a daily basis.

(Lubicom Press Release)

Eternal Jewish Family - Craves attention

Guest Post: Recipients and Publicity's comment to "Eternal Jewish Family - What are they doing these ...":

EJF makes dubious claims about a meeting in Detroit.

The latest Sukkos-edition of the English MODIAH has published an EJF press release in the guise of an article exactly as it has already appeared online on Yeshiva World (September 28, 2008) so this must mean a lot to EJF. But, as usual, a closer scrutiny of the brief article reveals a lot of shaky double speak, deviousness, and misinformation that one wonders if all the rabbis and dayanim contacted by Rabbi Tropper and EJF are not being taken for the ride of their lives, given the numbers of batei din supposedly conscripted by EJF and the supposed scope of it all.

Here is the article as it appears in the MODIAH, a very reputable Torah-true paper, with comments following starting with "RaP":

"HAMODIA.
Community.
8 Tishrei 5769 – October 7, 2008
Page C14.

New EJF-Affiliated Beis Din Established in Detroit

([Photo. Caption reads:] Vaad Harabbanim of Detroit, Eternal Jewish Family agree on geirus standards for beis din. (R-L:) Rabbi Doniel Neustadt, chairman of the Vaad Harrabanim of Detroit; Rabbi Chaim Bergstein, dayan; Rabbi Meilech Silberberg, dayan; Rabbi Ari Kostelitz, dayan; and Rabbi Leib Tropper, chairman of the Rabbinic Committee of EJF (foreground). Also participating was Rabbi Zachariash, former chairman of the Vaad Harabbanim.)

A fully functioning beis din that subscribes to the standards of Gedolei Yisroel on universally accepted conversions will serve Detroit and its environs, representatives of the Vaad Harrabanim of Detroit and the Eternal Jewish Family announced, following a meeting between Rabbi Leib Tropper, chairman of the Rabbinic Board of the EJF, and the Vaad Harrabanim.

The beis din agreed to follow the standards on geirus according to the piskei din of such past and present poskim as Hagaon Harav Moshe Feinstein, zt”l; Hagaon Harav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt”l; the Minchas Yitzchak; Hagaon Harav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, shlita, and Hagaon Harav Reuven Feinstein, shlita.

Following his visit to Detroit, Rabbi Tropper said that he was extremely impressed with the caliber of the dayanim and that he had no doubt that ‘it would emerge as one of the model batei din’ around the world. He said he was overwhelmed by ‘the reception and sincerity of the beis din’ in adopting the standards of Gedolei Yisrael on universally accepted conversions.

The Rabbanim and dayanim of the Vaad Harrabanim who participated included Rabbi Doniel Neustadt, Yoshev Rosh of the Vaad Harrabanim; Rabbi Meilech Silberberg; Rabbi Chaim Bergstein, Rabbi Ari Kostelitz, and Rabbi S. Zachariash, former chairman of the Vaad Harrabanim.

The Rabbanim complimented EJF on its accomplishments since its establishment three years ago. They were enthusiastic about becoming part of a growing network of batei din in the U.S., Israel, and Europe that would follow the geirus standards of the leading poskim. The Rabbanim also thanked Mr. Tom Kaplan for his support of this new affiliation between EJF and the beis din.

While EJF does not establish batei din, it works with existing batei din and those in formation that function in accordance with the standards of the foremost Gedolei haTorah. The Detroit beis din, which was established 26 years ago, is the 18th in the worldwide network of batei din that subscribe to the EJF standards. Other batei din are located in Israel and Europe.

In North America, the batei din function in such cities as Baltimore, Monsey, Philadelphia, Chicago, Cleveland, New York, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, Montreal, Miami, Lakewood, Dallas, Toronto, Houston, and Vancouver.”
~~~~~

"HAMODIA.
Community.
8 Tishrei 5769 – October 7, 2008
Page C14."

RaP: This article should have been accurately called: ""Established Detroit Beis Din meets with EJF to discuss conversions" as will be explained below. Notice how the various press-releases are being spread around in various Jewish papers and media sources. At times it's the Jewish Press, or online Jewish media, or papers such as the Modiah that do not publish online, so that all the carefull layering and spread of press releases about this and that meeting between Rabbi Tropper and yet another group of rabbis and dayanim seems to unfold like a forest in bloom. But is it?

"New EJF-Affiliated Beis Din Established in Detroit"

RaP: Why does the first line, the headline, have to start with a borderline lie?! The implication for anyone who reads English is that it is EJF that is setting up this beis din in Detroit when a few paragrpahs down the same piece says that EJF does not set up batei din and that this one in Detroit is 26 years old! So what new tricks is Rabbi Tropper coming to teach them, if any? None, because the news item is not for the rabbis in Detroit, it is part of PR campaign that is costing EJF heavy money to get the message across that EJF is the "only show in town" when thinking of conversions, when it is a false claim to project onto the Orthodox Jewish public, simply because right-wing Haredim and Hasidim such as Satmar or Lubavitch don't care about Rabbi Tropper and his antics, and the left wing Modern Orthodox who use the RCA and its rabbonim and dayonim won't care either, see http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/02/rca-announces-establishment-of.html and http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/07/conversion-crisis-r-angel-r-riskin-try.html and http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/05/80-relgious-zionist-orthodox-rabbis.html as examples, so what is all this trumpet blowing worth, except that it makes Rabbi Tropper into a household name worthy of an Obama PR drive.

"([Photo. Caption reads:] Vaad Harabbanim of Detroit, Eternal Jewish Family agree
on geirus standards for beis din. (R-L:) Rabbi Doniel Neustadt, chairman of the Vaad Harrabanim of Detroit; Rabbi Chaim Bergstein, dayan; Rabbi Meilech Silberberg, dayan; Rabbi Ari Kostelitz, dayan; and Rabbi Leib Tropper, chairman of the Rabbinic Committee of EJF (foreground). Also participating was Rabbi Zachariash, former chairman of the Vaad Harabbanim.)"

RaP: The photo shows how choshuv these Detroit rabbonim really are and how they are sitting with serious faces towards the camera and towards Rabbi Tropper. Neither now nor later are any of them actually quoted verbatim. Why not? Are all these dayanim mute? Iws only Rabbi Tropper abale to verbalize what transpires? Ah yes, "the world (of conversions) according to Tropper, the next chapter"! One wonders what the dayanim are thinking about all this and if they know that Rabbi Tropper and EJF are controversial in the Haredi world and MO world? Do they know that the BADATZ sent letters to RECIPIENTS at many other batei din not get involved with EJF and that EJF and Rabbi Tropper received negative PUBLICITY for their hidden agenda that they spent literal MILLIONS of dollars on to convert the non-Jewish spouses of intermarried couples? Or is all this now not discussed?

"A fully functioning beis din that subscribes to the standards of Gedolei Yisroel on universally accepted conversions will serve Detroit and its environs,"

RaP: But wait, what lies are these, the beis din exists in Detroit for 26 years already and no doubt performing some conversions has been one of it tasks, and they are such ehrliche people that why are they being misrepresented as if Rabbi Tropper is organizing them for the first time to be a "reliable and obedient" beis din on conversions?

"representatives of the Vaad Harrabanim of Detroit and the Eternal Jewish Family announced, following a meeting between Rabbi Leib Tropper, chairman of the Rabbinic Board of the EJF, and the Vaad Harrabanim."

RaP: Question: Rabbi Tropper is referred to here as "chairman of the Rabbinic Board of the EJF" but in the photo caption he is referred to as "chairman of the Rabbinic Committee of EJF" so could someone please explain what is the difference between the "Rabbinic Board" and the "Rabbinic Committee" of EJF? Are they different or are they the same thing and the typist drawing up this info-mercial was perhaps careless? If the EJF "Board" and "Committee" are indeed different, what are the differences and why is Rabbi Tropper "chairman" of BOTH the "Board" and the "Committee"? And who appointed him to these positions that he can sit in judgment as a kind of uber-dayan passing judgment on other dayanim and batei din no less that have presumably been performing their holy work long before Rabbi Tropper and his allies ever dreamed up the EJF junket? This is all very troubling.

"The beis din agreed to follow the standards on geirus according to the piskei din of such past and present poskim as"

RaP: How condescending! Would anyone imagine that such an illustrious beis din with such choshuve rabbonim and dayanim would pasken in any way other than the "piskei din of such past and present poskim"? The sheer chutzpa of this statement actually borders on stupidity because it reveals an utter lack of derech eretz and pathetic paternalism. Does Rabbi Tropper and his yingelach of EJF think that dealing with and writing about a prestigious beis din is like setting up another kiruv program on a forlorn fardorbenne campus and that they are dealing with "student organizers" and pontential kiruv candidates? It is obvious that Rabbi Tropper and the person writing this tatty shameful article are wedded to a bad kind of kiruv paradigm (the paternalistic kind that most BTs intuitively resent and reject) and that they have no clue how to work with batei din. No wonder the rabbis always look glum and unhappy to be in the pictures with Rabbi Tropper since he seems to be treating themeno better than a wild rancher rounding up his select steers to be branded as "his"!

"Hagaon Harav Moshe Feinstein, zt”l; Hagaon Harav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt”l; the Minchas Yitzchak; Hagaon Harav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, shlita, and Hagaon arav Reuven Feinstein, shlita."

RaP: Besides the usual pathetic retrocative meaningless invocation of deceased rabbis zt"l who were never involved with EJF, the article introduces a new twist, that the "Minchas Yitzchak" is now another deceased rabbi who approves of EJF. Well, well, the "Minchas Yitzchak" is none other than HaRav HaGaon Yitzchok Yaakov Weiss zt"l who passed away in 1989!!! He became "the Edah Charedis head in 1979 with the death of Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum" of Satmar (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzchok_Yaakov_Weiss ) so now we are being told that perhaps even the Edah Hacharedis and its BADATZ support EJF retroactivly too? What fraud is that? All of which flies in the face of the fact that the BADATZ of today and the heirs and allies of Rav Weiss are the most publicly outspoken group of rabbis denouncing Rabbi Tropper and the EJF, see http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/02/bedatz-letter-regarding-ejf-signed-by.html

"Following his visit to Detroit, Rabbi Tropper said that he was extremely impressed with the caliber of the dayanim"

RaP: This is sheer arrogance and chutzpa. Did he check up on their other activities as well such as hashgochas on foods and restaurants? Who is he to "judge" these dayanim? What formula does he use to arrive at being happy or not with reputable dayanim? What kind of ne-man-show is this? It is beyond a joke, it is a caricature of a grand inquisitor.

"and that he had no doubt that ‘it would emerge as one of the model batei din’ around the world. He said he was overwhelmed by ‘the reception and sincerity of the beis din’ in adopting the standards of Gedolei Yisrael on universally accepted conversions."

RaP: Oh, and until he turned up in Detroit they were not going by what Gedolei Yisroel were saying? Give us all a break please! The chutzpa just never stops, and it is surprising that the dayanim in such photos don't tell him to get lost and to aplogize for writing such childish drivel in fake news releases that he and EJF spread all over the world with the services of professional hired-gun PR companies, including that of Rabbi Tropper's own sister in law, and supported by the Kaplan Millions.

"The Rabbanim and dayanim of the Vaad Harrabanim who participated included
Rabbi Doniel Neustadt, Yoshev Rosh of the Vaad Harrabanim; Rabbi Meilech Silberberg; Rabbi Chaim Bergstein, Rabbi Ari Kostelitz, and Rabbi S. Zachariash, former chairman of the Vaad Harrabanim."

RaP: All well known and honorable rabbonim who do NOT need a haskama from the frenetic globetrotting Reb Leib Tropper. Question: Why was Rabbi Zachariash camera shy? Maybe he knows something the others don't? But his name is dragged into it willy-nilly.

"The Rabbanim complimented EJF on its accomplishments since its establishment three years ago. They were enthusiastic about becoming part of a growing network of batei din in the U.S., Israel, and Europe that would follow the geirus standards of the leading poskim."

RaP: Note how there are no verbatim quotes on the record, just secoind hand descriptions by an unkown writer of this poor PR piece. Such babyish words it's astounding. For heaven's sake, these are major rabbonim and they are being made to sound like puppets and they are endorsing some kind of new fangled product of their master. And by the way, how exactly is Rabbi Tropper and EJF to "lead" this ever growing list of batei din? By Email? IM? Fax? Teleconference? All expenses paid meetings paid by the Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation? How does that reconcile with not taking shochad, or is that a minor technicality?

"The Rabbanim also thanked Mr. Tom Kaplan for his support of this new affiliation between EJF and the beis din."

RaP: What? They thanked who? Why? For what? Is he the "posek" of note here? And do they know he is NOT a "Mr" but a very smart PhD with an agenda, see ttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/02/who-is-behind-eternal-jewish-family.html Do they know that Dr. Tom Kaplan is not neutral in the EJF saga, he has sponsored all expenses paid get-aways in fancy hotels ("kiruv" to GOYIM) by "reaching out" to the NON-Jewish spouses in intermarriages to convince to obtain Orthodox conversions? Are all these batei also signing on to THOSE goals, so nicely concealed behind all the talk about following poskim and deceased rabbis zt"l? Are the batei din hooking up with EJF aware that when the BADATZ came out against EJF's mission that EJF cancelled its controversial get aways for mixed marriage couples and PR events for rabbis? see http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/03/eternal-jewish-family-conference-in_27.html

"While EJF does not establish batei din, it works with existing batei din and those in formation that function in accordance with the standards of the foremost Gedolei haTorah. The Detroit beis din, which was established 26 years ago, is the 18th in the worldwide network of batei din that subscribe to the EJF standards. Other batei din are located in Israel and Europe."

RaP: So far this is the first honest statement and it should have been the lead. The heading of the article should correctly have said "Established Detroit Beis Din meets with EJF to discuss conversions" and not like it makes it sound that some great gedila was achieved. Nothing has changed, just that Rabbi Tropper rode into town, and naturally a photographer was ready to snap a pic and a press release was concocted and sent out to a few prize Jewish news outlets about what was in essence a minor meeting, one of thousands between Orthodox rabbis working with conversions on a daily basis and doing the best they can.

"In North America, the batei din function in such cities as Baltimore, Monsey, Philadelphia, Chicago, Cleveland, New York, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, Montreal, Miami, Lakewood, Dallas, Toronto, Houston, and Vancouver."

RaP: Ok, so there is Yiddishkeit and there are rabbonim, batei din and dayanim in those cities, but that does not mean that Rabbi Tropper should be allowed to falsely project himself as some kind of "chief rabbi in charge of all Orthodox conversions" when he is clearly not.

Shavei Israel III - Proselytizing not kiruv/Finding Jews that don't exist

Guest Post: Recipients and Publicity's comment to "Shavei Israel II - Exploiting Law of Return Loopho...":

For once I agree with Jersey Girl's attitude here. [See JPost article she forwarded]

But Bartley, while I admit that my post was somewhat far-reaching, it does make a very good point, that in spite of Shavei Israel's posturing and to be blunt, MANIPULATION of the Israeli Chief Rabbinate's requirements for conversions, if you just take a hard cold look at what Shavei Israel is up to, and the JP article was a good example, they are searching high and low for ANY people with the remotest connections to the Jewish people, and they will work with people that halacha is clear are pure gentiles, meshumadim and outright Christians who do not have have a Jewish mother, for a few generations, and may even have been Catholics for a long time and in fact don't even want to "come back" to the Jewish people and Zion so that to get involved in "kiruv-like" activities to haul these people in that is a very controversial, and probably Halachically forbidden, activity.

Your contention that Shavei Israel is no different than a kiruv operation is wrong because they are working with the goal to reach people who THEY know will often times be gentiles and will require conversions, which is not and should not be the classical definition of "kiruv" which means reaching out to non-observant Jews and trying to mekarev them.

If you had read what I have written in some earlier posts about Kiruv that Dr. Eidensohn kindly published, you will see that what Shavei Israel is doing is like the current Reform Judaism effort of "Keruv" to non-Jews and to non-Jewish partners of Jews in the hope of bringing into the Jewish people and not even trying to convert them. This is the Achilles heel of the EJF/R. Leib Tropper/Tom Kaplan effort in spite of its counter-claims, and that is that in effect Shavei Israel, the Reform movement and even EJF are promoting a kind of evangelical Judaism that seeks to proselytize people into becoming Jews when they are neither asking for it nor need it.

Descendants of Marranos (Anusim) II - should they be encouraged to convert?

Recipients and Publicity comment to "Descendants of Marranos (Anousim) - should they be...":

It seems that the modern-day affliction of the "urge to merge" gentiles with Jews is to be found everywhere in the Jewish world in all shapes and sizes: Reform Jews wishes to welcome non-Jewish mothers and do "keruv" to the universe; Chabad and Aish HaTorah work quietly to help the spouses and family members of supporters get easy conversions; the Israeli government welcomes hundreds of thousands of non-Jews into Israel; the Religious Zionists work to convert people in bulk; RCA rabbis go easy on conversions of congregants' inter-married congregants; and even Litvishe Haredim have "kiruv" that leads to conversion such as Rabbi Leib Tropper and his EJF that promotes and welcomes gentile spouses of Jews. So is it any surprise that the Sephardim have their own version and weakness, based on the revisionism of Jewish history and nutty search for Marranos (any "interested" Hispanic may apply) that they now call "Anusim" or "Converso" as can be seen from this small but significant item published in the usually strict-about-conversions Jewish Press:

"The Jewish Press.
Friday, August 1, 2008. Page 47.
West Coast Happenings.
Jeanne Litvin, West Coast Editor.

Shul News: Recently Rabbi Simcha Green, formerly of Young Israel of Santa Barbara, became the spiritual leader of Congregation Ahavat Torah in San Jose, California, which became a Sephardic shul two years ago. Congregants come from Morocco, Syria, Iran, Romania and other communities – including Israel. This shul is an outreach center for Anusim (Conversos), previously referred to by Ashkenazim as Marranos. They are interested in hearing from people who include themselves in this category. On August 12- 18, they are hosting a Sephardic Heristage Week. Events are planned for both kids and adults. They include a Shabbos dinner for college students and singles, a Sephardic Food Cookoff, a talk on Jewish pirates during the Revolutionary War, and a symposium on the history of Conversos (to be held at San Jose State University)."

Kiruv XIII - Entering the final closing stage of kiruv

Recipients and Publicity wrote:

MODERN KIRUV'S HISTORICAL PARADOX

or

KIRUV a VICTIM OF ITS OWN SUCCESS!

or

KIRUV'S TROUBLED AGE FROM THE 1980s TO THE 2000s VERSUS KIRUV'S GOLDEN AGE FROM THE 1950s TO THE 1980s.

or

ENTERING THE FINAL CLOSING STAGE OF KIRUV.

I am not disputing Dr. Eidensohn's craving for sources and I will be glad to read all the sources he can come up with. But the following comments relate to something more serious than searching for sources (somewhat like looking for a flight data recorder "black-box" after a catastrophic plane crash) when analyzing the flight, what went wrong, why the crash took place and how to help any survivors if there are any is very beneficial.

The small comment by Tzurah that: FFB's have an attitude that "...In fact, they were always taught not to proselytize, so kiruv looks like it might be a little assur (esp. if one might end up teaching Torah, even inadvertently, to actual non-Jews). Also, one has to go out into the non-frum world and expose oneself to myriad spiritual dangers. If it might be assur, and it might endanger your neshama, why take the chance? ..."

The problem is in fact far deeper than it seems. One thing to note is the success to which kiruv rechokim has been "mainstreamed" and has won a lot of recognition in the frum world. Much of it lip-service but impressive nevertheless. Even the Reform and Conservative movements have launched "keruv" (with an "e") drives aping the Orthodox and Haredi "kiruv" (with and "i").

But as has been stated and reported in earlier posts on this blog, kindly posted by Dr. Eidensohn for which I give him a big public thank you!, the first age of Kiruv, from about the 1950s to the 1980s is over.

It was a type of golden age with all the excitement of something new coming out of the social dislocation of the 1950s and 1960s and the remorse of the Holocaust on many people's mind.

And in those days the MAJORITY of Jews were not intermarried so most youth and young adults who joined Orthodoxy and some of its earliest outreach programs came from reliably Halachicly Jewish backgrounds with a Jewish mother and Jewish father.

However, symbolically and practically with the Reform movement's official acceptance of patrilineal descent, meaning a Jewish mother was not required to be called a Jew and just having a Jewish father was enough, and with the vast majority of Jews remaining secular and unaffiliated and slipping into mass assimilation, intermarriage and even apostasy to Christianity (hundreds of thousands of them joining the new so-called "Messianic movements"), as proven by the USA National Jewish Population Surveys of 1990 and 2000 the MAJORITY of those born from the 1980s onwards are coming from interfaith unions and many people who think they are Jewish, born as they are from only Jewish fathers or converted by Reform and Conservative, are not Jewish Halachicly, and this then creates our present TROUBLED AGE OF KIRUV from the 1980s to the present times, with so many people in kiruv programs not being Halachicly Jewish and the numbers keep on growing EVEN CREATING A LARGE DEMAND AND MARKET FOR ALL SORTS OF QUESTIONABLE CONVERSION, so that kiruv efforts fuel demands for conversion.

Thus in a span of roughly sixty years, since after the Holocaust, the KIRUV MOVEMENT HAS EXPERIENCED TWO STAGES: A GOLDEN AGE FROM THE 1950s TO THE 1980s AND A TROUBLED AGE FROM THE 1980s TO THE 2000s.

What do I mean by this?

Basically that the Baal Teshuva Movement that started after the Holocaust and took off in the 1950s and 1960s surprised EVERYONE because the religious world was as surprised as the secular world that it was happening at all. Very few took it seriously at first and many thought it was a passing craze, like the hula-hoop or bell-bottoms. And very few would have imagined or dared to say that it was a fulfilment of ancient Jewish prophecies in the Tanach that one day the Jewish people would return to BOTH its land in Zion and to its Torah heritage and then some. But it was all dream like.

In the early days Chabad rabbis rabbis were welcomed guest-speakers in Reform and conservative synagogues to talk about "Hasidism" and "Kabbalah" but when synagogue members took them seriously and the Lubavitchers had the audacity to then set up their own Chabad shuls next door all hell broke loose and they were banned from the Reform and Conservative places. The same thing happened to the Aish HaTorah people when they played their Discovery seminars at Reform and Conservative places to packed houses in the 1980s until they started influencing too many people and then they too were banned.

The point is there was so much SPONTANEOUS success with people becoming frum, with real professional kiruv workers being trained and encouraged to do it, that few realized that this would all change with new circumstances. Incidentally, many who would become leaders of the Baal Teshuva movement were themselves Baalei Teshuva from the Golden Age of Kiruv.

But then things changed and the with more assimilation and intermarriage there were less real Halachic Jews then there had been BUT that did not stop people, all people including gentiles and non-Halachic Jews, from wanting to learn more, and here is where a GREAT PARADOX kicks in, that in the newer TROUBLED AGE OF KIRUV the Halachic questions went deeper than ever before, that KIRUV WENT BIG TIME "CORPORATE", and it was no longer a case of lone ranger Chabad rabbis and a handful of NCSY rabbis doing kiruv, in their place arose KIRUV CONGLOMERATE BEHEMOTHS WITH HUGE FUNDS AND PRACTICED METHODS with all this experience, and organization and funding being poured into kiruv rechokim at a time when the texture and make-up of the rechokim had changed from a majority who came from two Halachic Jewish parents to a majority who came from intermarried homes or were intermarried themselves. (That is why Rabbi Leib Tropper's EJF efforts are so cutting edge, because he is showing that he understands, and is working with, the new "kiruv paradigm" and why he was also shot down by the BADATZ who sent out letters to rabbis who were Recipients and making Publicity that such as Rabbi Tropper and the EJF planned, was not to be done nor encouraged, and THAT KIRUV PROGRAMS MUST NOW DISCOURAGE GENTILES FROM JOINING THEIR PROGRAMS AND CERTAINLY FROM WANTING TO CONVERT TO JUDAISM.

So it is again the tides of society and history that are forcing the hands of some leading rabbis, leading to a literal "mekarev beyemin umerachek besmol" ("bring close with your right hand and reject with your left hand") situation.

And that is why there is presently so much confusion in the field and in general, that while some talk rosily and dreamily about "kiruv" in our times, it is not related to reality and the facts on the ground, since they think or assume conditions are like it was in the Golden Age of Kiruv in its first sate from the 1950s to the 1980s when it is NOT

Or maybe some resort to the false logic that "the more people who are married to gentiles the more kiruv must be done", which is a dangerous game to play, because what will be done with those gentiles if they are brought into Jewish communities, and it is reported that in some Reform temples the majority of board members are not Halachic Jews!

While others are confused why there are these protests by other rabbis who object to "reaching out" to Jews when they are objecting to those who are gentiles according to Halacha from being brought into Judaism for the wrong reasons.

It is a very confusing and unsettling situation that will clarify itself in time, as people choose to go into one direction or another over the next generation or two.

It will probably not take more than another 30 years to accomplish the FINAL STAGE OF KIRUV once the Kiruv workers can get it through their heads that the gates are closing quickly and only those Halachicly Jewish should be mekareved.

That will take another 30 years or so and then the total span of the kiruv era will be over, having lasted no more than about 100 years (one hundred years) stretching from the 1950s into about the middle of the 21st century, that will be marked and recalled as unique era in Jewish and Torah history!

To be continued...