Monday, January 28, 2019

Rabbis: New York Reproductive Health Act 'declares war on life'



A prominent rabbinic organization has denounced New York State's newly-passed Reproductive Health Act. The law not only declares that abortion is a "fundamental right," but entirely removes illegal abortion, whether by a practitioner or malicious assailant, from the New York Penal Law. The Coalition for Jewish Values (CJV), representing over 1000 traditional rabbis in matters of public policy, called the law "indefensible" from a moral and humanitarian perspective.
"According to this law," said Rabbi Avrohom Gordimer, Chairman of the Rabbinic Circle of the CJV, "late-term abortions may be performed literally until right before birth, even by non-doctors, and not only in order to save the mother’s life but also 'to protect a patient’s health' — and even decriminalized illegal abortions. New York State has asserted that a woman’s convenience and whim are more important than the life of another."
Rabbi Gordimer, who has written extensively on this topic, also pointed to numerous cases where women were attacked specifically due to their pregnancy, with intent to harm or kill her fetus. "The same legislators who have defined entirely new 'protected classes' have stripped expectant mothers — and their unborn children — of protection. This is morally indefensible. That they imagine this better for humanity simply boggles the mind."

14 comments :

  1. Excellent: “Rabbis: New York Reproductive Health Act 'declares war on life'”
    “When men fight, and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other damage ensues, the one responsible [Heb. he] shall be fined according as the woman’s husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on reckoning [others, as the judges determine]. But if other damage ensues, the penalty shall be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.” (Exodus 21:22-25).
    שמות פרק כא
    )כב) וְכִי יִנָּצוּ אֲנָשִׁים וְנָגְפוּ אִשָּׁה הָרָה וְיָצְאוּ יְלָדֶיהָ וְלֹא יִהְיֶה אָסוֹן עָנוֹשׁ יֵעָנֵשׁ כַּאֲשֶׁר יָשִׁית עָלָיו בַּעַל הָאִשָּׁה וְנָתַן בִּפְלִלִים:
    )כג) וְאִם אָסוֹן יִהְיֶה וְנָתַתָּה נֶפֶשׁ תַּחַת נָפֶשׁ:
    (כד) עַיִן תַּחַת עַיִן שֵׁן תַּחַת שֵׁן יָד תַּחַת יָד רֶגֶל תַּחַת רָגֶל:
    (כה) כְּוִיָּה תַּחַת כְּוִיָּה פֶּצַע תַּחַת פָּצַע חַבּוּרָה תַּחַת חַבּוּרָה
    רש"י שמות פרשת משפטים פרק כא פסוק כב
    וכי ינצו אנשים - זה עםח זה, ונתכוין להכות את חבירו והכה את האשה:
    ונגפו - אין נגיפה אלא לשון דחיפה והכאה, כמו (תהלים צא יב) פן תגוף באבן רגלך, (ירמיה יג טז) ובטרם יתנגפו רגליכם, (ישעיה ח יד) ולאבן נגף:
    ולא יהיה אסון -ט באשה:
    ענוש יענש - לשלם דמי ולדות לבעל, שמין אותה כמה היתה ראויה למכר בשוק להעלות בדמיה בשביל הריונה:
    ענוש יענש -י יגבו ממון ממנו, כמו (דברים כב יט) וענשו אותו מאה כסף:
    כאשר ישית עליו וגו' - כשיתבענו הבעלכ בבית דין להשית עליו עונש על כך:
    ונתן - המכה דמיל ולדות:
    בפלילים - על פי הדיינים:
    Sanhedrin 79a
    “All is well according to the Rabbis, who maintain that if he intended killing one man and killed another, he is liable. For it is written, “When men fight, and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other damage ensues, the one responsible [Heb. he] shall be fined according as the woman’s husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on reckoning [others, as the judges determine]” (Exodus 21:22). Whereupon R. Eleazar observed: The verse refers to attempted murder [lit , the verse speaks of a strife with murderous intent], because It is written, And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life [Ibid. 23; v. supra, 74a.].”
    I notice שמות פרק כא פסוק ד
    אִם אֲדֹנָיו יִתֶּן לוֹ אִשָּׁה וְיָלְדָה לוֹ בָנִים אוֹ בָנוֹת הָאִשָּׁה וִילָדֶיהָ תִּהְיֶה לַאדֹנֶיהָ וְהוּא יֵצֵא בְגַפּוֹ
    האשה וילדיה is in Exodus 21:4 and אִשָּׁה הָרָה וְיָצְאוּ יְלָדֶיהָ is in Exodus 21:22. Wow. The fetus and born children are both called children! Bravo Rabbi Goldimer!
    Rabbi Gordimer, who has written extensively on this topic, also pointed to numerous cases where women were attacked specifically due to their pregnancy, with intent to harm or kill her fetus. "The same legislators who have defined entirely new 'protected classes' have stripped expectant mothers — and their unborn children — of protection. This is morally indefensible. That they imagine this better for humanity simply boggles the mind."

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  2. I like to tell it straight. A spade is a spade. Killing a living being, even a fetus, is a hideous biblical sin, a sin taught us by HaShem. But Cuomo and Hillary are sixty children who don't have any use for HaShem. But those of us who do worship HaShem and know that Cuomo and Hillary will one day answer for their sin and murder will also suffer divine anger. Why didn't we stop Cuomo and Hillary? Where are the thousands of Orthodox Jews and even Jews who aren't Orthodox? And what of the many biblical gentiles of various religions? Why don't thousands of people assemble publically in Albany and New York City, get into the newspapers, and put the pressure on the murderers?

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  3. A fetus destroyed is murdered by somebody, and that person will come to heaven and be judged, and it won't be nice. And the dead fetus will be there too, in heaven, alive and strong, and will cry out at those who killed it. If I had to think of the end result of this, I would say that for sure the person who killed the baby, including Cuomo, will be sent to a very hot place, or perhaps be sent back into the world in the shape of a worm or some other hideous suffering. But what of the murdered fetus? At a minimum it will be given the opportunity to come down to earth in heavenly grace and watch the hideous suffering of the hideous worm.

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  4. in you whole discussion didnt you prove the gemarah doesnt view a fetus as complete life? otherwise it would be capital punishment not a mediation on damages.

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  5. So now New York has what Canada has had for decades. Coming next; euthanasia free-for-all

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  6. ghvjgugjvu says “in your whole discussion didn’t you prove the gemarah doesn’t view a fetus as complete life? otherwise it would be capital punishment not a mediation on damages”
    Of course, capital punishment, extremely rare, only for
    “He who fatally strikes a man shall be put to death. If he did not do it by design, but it came about by an act of God, I will assign you a place to which he can flee. When a man schemes against another and kills him treacherously, you shall take him from My very altar to be put to death.” (Exodus 21:12-14).
    Job speaks poetically about God and the human fetus.
    “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundations? Speak if you have understanding. Do you know who fixed its dimensions Or who measured it with a line? Onto what were its bases sunk? Who set its cornerstone When the morning stars sang together And all the divine beings shouted for joy? Who closed the sea behind doors When it gushed forth out of the womb, When I clothed it in clouds, Swaddled it in dense clouds, (Job 38:4-9).
    איוב פרק לח פסוק ח
    וַיָּסֶךְ בִּדְלָתַיִם יָם בְּגִיחוֹ מֵרֶחֶם יֵצֵא:
    מלבי"ם ביאור המילות איוב פרק לח פסוק ח
    בגיחו. ענין גחון. שהיולדת שחה על גחונה מכאב הלידה. כמו חולי וגוחי בת ציון כיולדה (וכמ"ש ביחזקאל ס' ל"ב

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  7. Kalonymus AnonymusJanuary 29, 2019 at 7:43 PM

    See Dr Fred Rosner's article
    https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-fetus-in-jewish-law/

    Exodus 21:

    כב וְכִי-יִנָּצוּ אֲנָשִׁים, וְנָגְפוּ אִשָּׁה הָרָה וְיָצְאוּ יְלָדֶיהָ, וְלֹא יִהְיֶה, אָסוֹן--עָנוֹשׁ יֵעָנֵשׁ, כַּאֲשֶׁר יָשִׁית עָלָיו בַּעַל הָאִשָּׁה, וְנָתַן, בִּפְלִלִים. 22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow, he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
    כג וְאִם-אָסוֹן, יִהְיֶה--וְנָתַתָּה נֶפֶשׁ, תַּחַת נָפֶשׁ. 23 But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life


    The rabbis see this as a financial compensation, ie not the same as murder.

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  8. Kalonymus Anonymus says “See Dr Fred Rosner's article...”
    Daf Hayomi Chullin 60a
    This supports R. Joshua b. Levi, who said: All the animals of the creation were created in their full-grown stature, with their consent, and according to the shape of their own choice, for it is written: “The heaven and the earth were finished, and all their array צבאם” (Genesis 2:1) Read not zeba'am [צבאם, the host of them] but zibyonam [צביונם. The three ideas of the text are suggested by the slight variations and different meanings of the originals word צבאם: (i) from the root נצב, meaning upstanding, full-grown; (ii) from צבי, meaning desire, consent; and (iii) from צביון meaning pleasure, choice. V. R.H. 11a]. R. Hanina b. Papa expounded: “May the glory of the Lord endure forever; may the Lord rejoice in His works ישמח ה' במעשיו! (Psalms 104:31) May the glory of the Lord endure forever; let the Lord rejoice in His works!
    A view in the gamara is that God created all in their full-grown stature, skipping the fetus, baby, childhood stages. Rabbi Goldimer is rightfully so angry at the New York Reproductive Health Act. See http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/23372

    “The passing of RHA will exonerate him from those charges. I cannot imagine living in a world where harming or killing an unborn child is not a crime,” Abreu said.
    Killing the fetus is a crime, yes, but not
    “When a man schemes against another and kills him treacherously, you shall take him from My very altar to be put to death” (Exodus 21:14).
    Hertz Chumash:
    “from Mine Altar. Even if it was a priest who officiated at the altar, he was not to escape his punishment, if his act was other than unintentional homicide (Talmud). Among the Greeks, an altar gave asylum to every murderer. In the Middle Ages, the Church offered ‘sanctuary’ to criminals of every description.”

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  9. I would like to point out that non-jews are governed by the seven mitsvos given to Noach. Killing a fetus at any stage ( at least after 40 days from conception) is a capital crime. All abortion laws regardless of the time of gestation are allowing something that is a capital crime for a non-jew.
    There is a law of self defense for non-jews. This would allow for abortions to save the life of the mother as I understand it.
    People who feel that the New York law is worse than other abortion laws should review the Rambam in Hilchos M'lachim chapter nine.
    Killing a fetus is not a capital crime for a jew. Killing a non-jew is not a capital crime for a jew. A jew performing abortions on non-jews is not even brought to bays din( assuming we had one).
    I would like Jews to get their morality from the Torah and not from the latest conservative blog. Acting as if there is a difference between 24 weeks and 30 weeks for abortions has no basis in halacha at all.
    If you think I am making this up, go open a Rambam and have someone read it to you. You may be surprised that the Torah has something to say about this subject.

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  10. Kalonymus Anonymus says “See Dr Fred Rosner's article...”
    This week’s parsha משפטים
    “You shall not subvert the rights לא תטה משפט of your needy אביונך in their disputes. Keep far from a false charge מדבר שקר תרחק; do not bring death on those who are innocent and in the right, for I will not acquit the wrongdoer.” (Exodus 23:6-7).
    Hertz Chumash:
    “wrest the judgment לא תטה משפט...nowhere has there been such a ringing denunciation of oppressions of the poor and of denying justice to the victims of violence...
    a false matter מדבר שקר. In the administration of justice; but this warning has the wider application as rule of life of the highest importance. innocent and righteous ונקי ןצדיק. Take every possible precaution so as not to condemn an innocent person to death. According to Talmudic law, a condemned man must have a retrial whenever new evidence if forthcoming; but if there has been an acquittal, there cannot be a fresh hearing of the case. justify the wicked כי לא אצדיק רשע. Better, acquit a guilty person. The guilty will not escape punishment at the hand of God, even if human tribunal fails to inflict it.”
    רש"י שמות פרשת משפטים פרק כג פסוק ו
    אבינך - לשון אובה, שהוא מדולדל ותאב לכל טובה:
    רש"י שמות פרשת משפטים פרק כג פסוק ז
    ונקי וצדיק אל תהרג - מניין ליוצא מבית דין חייב ואמר אחד יש לי ללמד עליו זכות, שמחזירין אותו, תלמוד לומר ונקי אל תהרג וזה אף על פי שאינו צדיק, שלא נצטדק בבית דין, מכל מקום נקי הוא מדין מיתה, שהרי יש לך לזכותו. ומניין ליוצא מבית דין זכאי ואמר אחד יש לי ללמד עליו חובה, שאין מחזירין אותו לבית דין לחייבו תלמוד לומר וצדיק אל תהרוג, וזה צדיק הוא, שנצטדק בבית דין:
    כי לא אצדיק רשע - אין עליך להחזירו, כי אני לא אצדיקנו בדיני, אם יצא מידך זכאי, יש לי שלוחים הרבה להמיתו במיתה שנתחייב בה:
    I apply this teaching to the Mueller investigation/indictments....
    Internet: “Frivolous litigation may be based on absurd legal theories, may involve a superabundance or repetition of motions or additional suits, may be uncivil or harassing to the court, or may claim extreme remedies.”
    Rashi explains the word אביוך in Exodus 23:6: “for he is detached from any possessions and longs for all that is good.”
    Follow Kalonymus Anonymus? The Kamenetsky-Greenblatt heter and feminists demonstrations in defiance a bet din, ORA, Mendel Epstein et al etc makes for victims detached from any possessions who long for all that is good.
    I’m waiting for an update from SCOTUS and the NYS Ct of Appeals.

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  11. Kalonymus AnonymusJanuary 31, 2019 at 1:29 PM

    Thank you Gerald. Do you have a digital version of the Hertz Chumash? How do you copy/paste the quotes?

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  12. Kalonymus AnonymusJanuary 31, 2019 at 6:09 PM

    New York attacks https://www.timesofisrael.com/string-of-attacks-on-jews-rattles-brooklyn-neighborhood/

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  13. ghc has invented a question that he doesn't prove, that if the Torah or HaShem consider a fetus a life that one who kills a fetus must get capital punishment. Where does it say that? HaShem has various punishments. There are people who sin with capital crimes with no witnesses who are guilty of the worst sin but are not killed because there are no witnesses. Perhaps the murder of a fetus is murder, but a human life at this stage like many other capital crimes may have some missing factor such as I just mentioned that prevent Beth Din from killing the guilty party, despite his terrible violation of the Torah.
    David Eidensohn

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  14. The gemara in sanhedrin on the sugya about abortion says that a fetus can be aborted if it threatens the mother. Rashi explains that it is allowed because it is not a "nefesh shalom", a complete life. Almost all of the commentators on the gemara there explain it the same way. If the fetus was a complete life you would not be allowed to abort it to save the mother. This difference does not apply to non-jews and they DO get capital punishment for abortion.

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