Greenblatt-Kaminetsky Heter: Is Tamar considered as if she was forced to marry her second husband?
Received the following letter from Rabbi Shalom Spira concerning the Friedman-Epstein disaster. I am not convinced however that Tamar should be assumed not to be fully aware of the opposition to the Greenblatt-Kaminetsky heter and therefore I don't think she should be considered forced. [See a previous discussion of this issue Daas Torah - A Refutation of a proposed Heter]
Shalom Aleikhem R. Daniel Eidensohn, shlit"a,
I wept as I read your moving essay today regarding the agunah tragedy in Philadelphia.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2017/02/aharon-friedman-is-free-to-remarry.html
You will also recall that you generously showcased my prenup agreement on a past occasion, thereby highlighting (what is in my opinion) the optimal way to prophylactically prevent agunah tragedies:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/01/prenuptial-agreementrabbi-shalom-spira.html
Accordingly, I just wanted to present a possible solution to Ms. Epstein's tragic plight, since (though I have no personal knowledge of the Philadelphia community) I am distantly spiritually related to one of its poskim. Namely, my semikhah (a copy of which is presently appended) is from the late R. Joshua H. Shmidman, zatza"l, whose son (presently carbon copied) is the Mara de-Atra of the Lower Merion Synagogue.
My impression is that, [...], it appears that Ms. Epstein is anoosah, having honestly thought she was acted correctly, as per the derashah on "ha-adam bi-shevuah" (Leviticus 5:4) presented by the Gemara, Shevu'ot 26a. That derashah exculpates people who become confused by honest emotions beyond their control. Or Zaru'a. Hilkhot Yibbum ve-Kiddushin no. 637, employs this very derashah to exonerate from all sacrificial liability a gentleman who waits the statutory three months of clarification after his (apparently) childless brother died to wed the widow through levirate marriage, and then some time later discovers that the widow had been pregnant all along from her original husband, with the fetus being concealed. Since the brother acted in good faith, his unlawful incest is deemed to be anoose, not shogeg.
Therefore, I would argue that Ms. Epstein has been anoosah until now, honestly believing that she was following a legitimate heter, and she should be allowed to return to her original husband, and not be asurah la-ba'al as would normally be the case for an adulterous lady. [And I am sure an appropriate replacement shiddukh can be found for the second husband, who in fact no longer appears to be a husband altogether, if your refutation of the heter is accurate.] If matters would be explained to all the principals of the case in this manner, it may be possible to convince them to return to Beth Din as early as tomorrow, thereby bringing about a productive resolution.
Thank you and best wishes,
Shalom Spira
Montreal, Canada
The author of this letter, though well-meaning, evidently is lacking certain basic information about the case. Tamar has no interest in "being allowed to return to her first husband."
ReplyDeleteIs this trying to be a limud zchus on her?
ReplyDeleteTo extend yehoshua's argument below, she is not interested in leaving her second husband (at least not now.)
ReplyDeleteSo this whole discussion is irrelevant.
“Greenblatt-Kaminetsky Heter: Is Tamar considered as if she was forced to marry her second husband?”
ReplyDeleteIs this a comedy? Is Rabbi Spira mocking supporters of Tamar etc?
See
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/20212
Tuvia has often been attacked by left-wing critics who are not comfortable with his devastating exposure of “Fakestinian” victimhood and all those who are part of this vast, left-wing and Islamist conspiracy of dunces. His critique of left-wing Jews (often the first to criticize Israel but no one else), has won him no points among them and, in arguing Israel’s case, even in a low-key and humorous way, Tuvia has been treated as a “right wing-conservative.”
I enjoyed reading Rabbi Spira’s letter.
http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/12515-shailosandteshuvosspecial-one-year-anniversary-show-with-the-gadol-hadorthe-raavidof-the-eidah-hacharaidushagaon-hagodol-harav-moshe-shternbuch/
ReplyDeleteAt the 22 minute mark Rav Sternbauch does entertain Rabbi Spero's idea as a possibility.
(Practically, the fact that she may be halachically an onus may help her save face and return to Beis Din, as soon as she is willing to face the reality of her situation.)
Mr. Spira - you should really educate yourself of the facts of this case before writing such non-sense
ReplyDeleteIt is a complete JOKE to suggest that Tamar is a anoosah
- Tamar is the one who knowingly supplied the make up information to create the heter in the first place, which is a complete joke by any standards
-both Tamar and Adam were warned many times before their 'marriage' by many people that this will not be a valid marriage
-Tamar knew that this heter shopping by the kaminetskys was turned down by many many rabbis before they found one gullable rabbi who saw the name kamenetsky and went ahead without doing ANY research into the matter
- and yes, AF would probably agree to go back to the Baltimore BD - AFTER ALL THE DAMAGE DONE BY THE MOREDES IS FIXED. and anyone aware of the details of this case knows...there is A LOT of damage.
I understand it as theoretically she could go back to her first husband - meaning she has done no wrong and the situation can be fixed by BD getting a get to be given etc
ReplyDeleteActually the same line of reasoning in the poskim justifies her remaining with the 2nd husband - after a Get is given.
ReplyDeleteThere have been some well known rabbinic figures who have used this line of argument to try and convince Aharon to give a Get - in spite of her apparent acceptance of the Heter.
In other words - this claim that she was forced by rabbinic authority - is viewed as the best way to save the tattered reputation of the Kaminetskys and Rabbi Greenblatt by saying that bedieved it all worked out and there is no more problem of mamzerim if she stays married to Adam and therefore everyone should promplty forget everything that happened. Only remaining problem is the full documentation of this tragedy on this blog. That is a problem that these gedolim have not figured out what to do
The problem is that some major rabbis also think this is the way to repair the damage done by the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter. So even though I agree fully with what you wrote - these rabbis still consider it a viable option.
ReplyDelete“I just wanted to present a possible solution to Ms. Epstein's tragic plight”
ReplyDeleteTamar v Aahron is similar to Susan v Gerald. How? Both have a highly respected rabbi trying to help radical feminism with a horrible action. Surely the K-G heter is a horrible action that needs to be reversed. Rabbi Irwin Haut, a”h, also a horrible action that needs to be reversed.
I wrote today to the NYS Court of Appeals Susan v Gerald motion 2017-262:
“2.The central issue of Susan v Gerald motion 2017--262 is if I can persuade the court to do a complete retrial of everything Susan won in NYS courts.
3. I quote the Talmud
Sanhedrin 33b…
4. I quote Rashi on Exodus 23:7…
5. I have legitimate proof that the NYS courts erred in awarding Susan custody, the house and 55% of my TIAA pension. The issue before the NYS Court of Appeals is if I have a right of retrial.
7.According to the Torah someone says: I have a statement to make in his favor, he is to be brought back. [For re-trial]. Yes, I ask the NYS Court of Appeals for a retrial of the court's awarding custody, the house and 55\% of my TIAA pension to Susan.”
I like what Rabbi Spira proposes:
“If matters would be explained to all the principals of the case in this manner, it may be possible to convince them to return to Beth Din as early as tomorrow, thereby bringing about a productive resolution.”
So throw husband number one under the bus to save the reputation of a third party with a financial interest in the deal
ReplyDeleteWell, this is Chodesh Adar after all. So why don't we just say that she is karka olam?
ReplyDelete?get from second husband?
ReplyDeleteOrdinarily required.
If RSK told her 2000 amot end here, by miscalculation mistake, she would be required to bring a "charat" sin offering. But if he told her tchum shabbat does not apply to her, but it does to everyone else, and she was warned about it, its a " mezid" on purpose, and a chatat wouldn't help.
ReplyDeleteWell she she at least be made aware that most Torah abiding Jews will consider her offspring to be mazairim, and that she might have quite a portion in gehinom awaiting her, along with all of her enablers.
ReplyDeleteThe first time that the word 'gadol' appears in The Torah is
ReplyDeleteגדול עוני מנשוא
That is the best description for these 'gedoilim'
and after all that was done to him (including a foiled murder plot) why should AF do this?? to save face to kamenetsky, greenblatt and to legitimize tamars current adulterous relationship??? hm..........
ReplyDeleteyou seem to be thinking of this from both their standpoints i see.........
I don't understand this at all. So this option would save face of
ReplyDeletekamenetsky and greenblatt. Would be perfect for Tamar and let her stay
with Adam.
But where does that leave Aharon??
There is a reason
he did not give a GET in the first place [one just has to go back and
read through all the posts on this site for the last 8 years]
This
"option" leaves Aharon with even LESS reason now then ever to give a
GET. Everyone else is make "kosher" and the innocent victim.......
I
would say to Aharon....Don't even entertain any of this stupidity until
AFTER all that was done to you is fixed and all your concerns (custody)
and guaranteed in stone.
Anussah my foot! She never mentioned any mental issues in her list. Indeed, she also said that he treated her right. She also was aware that the Psych's report was invalid and all made up. Not even a Shogeg. This whole thing stinks from Foot and Mouth Disease. Hmmm... on second thought, all the players were aware of this scheme, it was them that suggested this slow packing up of leaving for three long months, and she is not even aware of the halachos of *Svuro hayisi*, ROFL even they were tau bidvar Mishneh and allegedly erred on this very issue. Rebi lo shono, reb Chiya minayin? They are all in it in cahoots.
ReplyDelete“ If matters would be explained to all the principals of the case in this manner, it may be possible to convince them to return to Beth Din as early as tomorrow, thereby bringing about a productive resolution.”
ReplyDeleteI support efforts to get the parties to return to Beth Din. Maybe the Beth Din could reverse the horrible K-G heter. K and G could, themselves, reverse the horrible K-G heter. Then there might not be need for the parties to return to Beth Din. The parties themselves might find a solution that even K and G would accept.
In Susan v Gerald I’m trying to get the NYS Court of Appeals to accept my case for their review. I want the horrible act Rabbi Irwin Haut, a”h, committed reversed. Irwin Haut filed suit and testified that I abandoned Susan when, in actuality Susan deserted me in 1991 by refusing to join me in Israel as she promised in Aliya papers in 1989, signing that she wants to live in Jerusalem with me. I divorced Susan in her initiative 2/15/1993 and married Yemima 5/9/1993, living happily ever after in Israel.
Susan could reverse the horrible act Rabbi Irwin Haut, a”h, committed on her own. I don’t care for money. I never did. Susan could keep what she stole from me, if she’ll just allow me my TIAA pension from here on. See, then my case would be closed. I could then visit NY without fearing Susan trying to make me pay $25,000 in unpaid fines and Susan trying to garnish my social security, etc.
"Ms. Epstein's tragic plight"
ReplyDeleteHER tragic plight?!?! She brought this on herself!
That someone is even proposing this convoluted "solution" proves that everyone knows the current situation stinks. But instead of doing a straightforward solution (i.e. Tamar end her adulterous "marriage" and go back to the Baltimore Bais Din) they even think "an appropriate replacement shiddukh can be found for the second husband". Huh? Does anyone really think Tamar wants the second husband to "replace" her?
If there's a way to open up the door for dialog, which will take care of the issues, why shouldn't we attempt it?
ReplyDeleteLet her be an onus. She is now not a public reshanta.
She needs to come back to Beis Din. She needs to publicly apologize to Aron Friedman for her actions which were onus/mistaken/misguided/ done under PTSD (Philadelphia Talmudic Selectisim Disorder) and OCPD (ORA-Crazed Philadelphia Divorce) or whatever face-saving that can be concocted.
All this will not detract from what she must do. We do open doors for people to be able to do teshuva - or at least fix some of their errors - the ones which affect others, namely her daughter and halachic husband.
If at that point she goes on to live with her paramour, it becomes a more private issue.
I read between the lines of RSK jr.'s letter on top of page, "ukvar massarti Psak haBD *leBaal haDovor* = namely ADAM, and does NOT refer to leBa'alaS hadovor = Tamar, of which is our issue/case at hand. Neither does it state to * LEBA'ALEI HADOVOR* as in plural. This is a gross ERROR not informiing her directly as well. Same goes for RNG, "it is not my job to notify that the HETER doesn't fly, let the person who fed me the wrong information retract and inform TAMAR & ADAM Therefore, there is some hanky panky going on, and either one or both are pulling strings for TAMAR not to budge. That indicates that the Key is not in her hands. What must be done is to confront both parties of Ba'alei HaHeter and markiv ish al kseifo and tell them that both have the responsibility to let her know in NO uncertain terms, that the HETER is WORTHLESS and must depart before any next step is to be followed. Only then do we have any prayer for her to listen! IMHO
ReplyDeleteQuestion, why do you think she is taking preventative action not to become pregnant? Because she then is in for Mranenin achreho of hineh hi horo liznunim!
in Israel , when the case is going no where and the desired and appropriate solution is a get , they force the get , not a question who is right or wrong . as I said earlier , lots of people get the bad end of the stick in divorce cases and move on and don't withhold a get
ReplyDeleteThe first time that the word 'gadol' appears in The Torah is המאור הגדול
ReplyDeleteThe first time that the word 'gedolim' appears in The Torah is המאורות הגדולים
If and when Tamar Friedman agrees to Shalom Spira's solution she would have to immediately separate from Adam and negotiate with her husband for a divorce. If she behaves in a way that the authorized BD of Baltimore accepts, only then might she be able to return to Adam. If not, תשב עד שתלבין ראשה.
ReplyDeleteShalom Spira's solution is no picnic for her.
“I just wanted to present a possible solution to Ms. Epstein's tragic plight,”
ReplyDeleteThis is Tamar’s tragic plight because of the K-G heter . See, Aharon is a non-abusive husband. In Israel a non-abusive husband who is alive and well and refuses to divorce his wife--wins. In Israel the wife has to show that he’s abusive, he’s a snake etc. This greatly annoys USA radical feminist. I see this is some of Susan’s legal papers.
In NYS a wife to get a divorce over the husband’s objections has to claim one of the DRL 170 conditions “An action for divorce may be maintained by a husband or wife to procure a judgment divorcing the parties and dissolving the marriage on any of the following grounds: (1) The cruel and inhuman treatment of the plaintiff… (2) The abandonment of the plaintiff… (3) The confinement of the defendant in prison… (4) The commission of an act of adultery…(5) The husband and wife have lived apart pursuant to a decree or judgment of separation… (6)... to a written agreement of separation…(7) The relationship between husband and wife has broken down irretrievably…”
Tamar got a civil divorce and not a get. Tamar and her friends which include K, G, Mendel Epstein, Susan etc were deeply upset. Tamar and friends went the route of the K-G heter to nullify that she married Aharon. For Tamar to go back to Bet Din, surely, the Bet Din will reverse the horrible act of the K-G heter. Only this will end Tamar’s the saga.
Susan friend Rabbi Irwin Haut, a”h, filed suit against me, so that Susan would fulfill DRL 170 (2). This is a horrible act. Surely, the NYS Court of Appeals Susan v Gerald 2017-262 will reverse this. Only this will end the saga.
The minute she goes to the Baltimore bet din is the minute ORA gets back in the picture.
ReplyDelete"when the case is going no where and the desired and appropriate solution is a get , they force the get , not a question who is right or wrong"
ReplyDeleteNothing to brag about the rotten Israeli "system". Unfortunately, many of the Gittin given under such circumstances are PASUL. The poskim have ruled that if there is no halachic basis for forcing the Get, beyond that a get is desired by the woman's side, such a Get is considered a coerced Get, and is invalid.
There is no way rewrite the Torah, even to help people save face.
ReplyDeleteWhat is Rabbi Shmidman's part in this travesty?
ReplyDeleteHe has no part in it.
ReplyDeleteI said 'gadol', not 'hagadol' "hagadol' means THE gadol, meaning the real one. Those are few and far between. Those are not the ones lightly referred to today as gedoilim. Today's gedoilim, for the most part, are from the airev rav, as The Divray Chaim already said in his time, and kol shekain in our time.
ReplyDeleteMentioning possibilities, which still needs to be decided by a real Beis Din, is not rewriting the Torah. Particularly when it is hypothetical. Shmuel Hanavie still honored Shaul Hamelech, even after he was unable to correct what he did. It's far from a perfect example, but there's still a point. Hashem did not approach Kayin, Adam and Chava by lambasting them at first; He opened a dialog first.
ReplyDeleteAt the 22 minute mark Rav Moshe Sternbauch also entertains that possibility http://disq.us/url?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpodcast.headlinesbook.com%2Fe%2F12515-shailosandteshuvosspecial-one-year-anniversary-show-with-the-gadol-hadorthe-raavidof-the-eidah-hacharaidushagaon-hagodol-harav-moshe-shternbuch%2F%3ARTm0m7zVCaTB6SMgRl1oTm4ifBY&cuid=3025274
A symbolic HMR!
ReplyDeleteChadra"g was/is that 1) you cannot procure a Get Ba'al korcho, and 2) you cannot have two wives at the same time, hence the heter Meah rabonim to allow the husband to marry a second wife and forgo the Cherem in special circumstances. In our particular case at hand, according to many Poskim there is no need even for a HMR, however it is still preferable to have one besides that in Europe they used to procure when it was atttainable. In our case, it is doubly so, since if we forgo the HMR, there will be those that might say that the K & G Heter was oiker the Kidushin, Is valid and did the trick, of which thereby *TAMAR is FREE* and needs no Get and can stay on with ADAM happily ever after.
Not so fast,
Kdei lehotzi miliban she tzedokim, for symbolic reasons it is preferred to acquire an HMR ,so that Yachad kulom hodu veomoru that TAMAR IS *NOT* FREE and TEITZE MIZE UMIZE prevails. It goes hand in hand with, why TAMAR needs also a GET from ADAM as well as stated in the Mishnah in Yevamos, even though her second marriage was/is not and cannot be Chal to begin with, However, kedei shelo yomru Eishes ish yotza'as belo Get as I explained in prior, the same logic applies in our case at hand and TAMAR *must * Go get a Get X2, while an HMR is still appropriate.
I can assure you that the dayanim in Israel know what they are doing , and are more in touch with both the halacha and reality than some of the poskim in the USA. The big mess in this case is also due to the good advice AF got . I thank God that I live in Israel where reality and the consequences of a p'sak are more relevant
ReplyDeleteOn what basis are you assuring me that the dayanim in Israel know what they are doing? What are your qualifications for making such an assessment? Living in Israel doesn't make for such qualification. For all you know, I might be your next door neighbor, and I strongly disagree with you.
ReplyDeleteI suggest that you educate yourself on this subject. A good place to start, is by getting a hold of the sefer "Mishpatei Yisrael"
איסור הליכה לבתי משפט ולבתי הדין הרבניים הפועלים לפי חוקי המדינה : קיצור הלכות כפיית גיטין והליכה לערכאות
https://www.scribd.com/document/177836081/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A4%D7%98%D7%99-%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C-%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%99-%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%9D
On what basis?
ReplyDeleteORA = O'rganization R'epressing A'gunos
"Karka Olam" only works as a mechanism in the case of "oness".
ReplyDeleteThen I seem to be missing something. Why was his name invoked?
ReplyDelete"My impression is that, given the righteousness, piety and scholarship of R. Avraham Yerucham Shmidman (who follows faithfully in the noble path of his father, Mori ve-Rebbi zatza"l, and whose ankles I do not even reach), it appears that Ms. Epstein is anoosah..."
I know talmidei chachamim that would be willing to sign on the HMR. Is it in the works? What path does AF want to take?
ReplyDeleteAfter entertaining that possibility, what is his conclusion?
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/10/re-real-stuff.html
ReplyDeleteI do not correspond with Aron and don't know what he has in mind. If he wants, he can remarry either way, with or without HMR. Putting myself in his shoes, probably wants a clear coast before he moves on in life, and not be bogged down with BD's in his fresh marriage. Usually, the disgruntled X's get furious when the husband remarries, so in the meantime he enjoys peace of mind and soul to the extent he does. In the meantime, TAMAR is suspended tween heaven an earth with Gehinom psucha mitachteha e.g. Avshalom ben David, having the whole world frown at her. In no time they go to a Few Kollelim, can get 100 Chatimot and goodbye charlie, however I am sure he has top advisers behind him.
ReplyDeleteIncluding your comment to Allan:
ReplyDelete"...So please get off your soapbox and let's stick to the real issues. There is a clear halachic problem of get me'usa - which is the topic of this book. Solution to the suffering of the aguna is not going to result by chanting "Tikun Olam", nor by ignoring the majority of poskim and saying we will simply posken like the Rambam or paying $100,000 to have a husband tortured into saying he wants to give a get etc etc."
Because that's what ORA does. Improper pressure on husbands, in violation of BBD (or any other bet din they don't like that day.)
ReplyDeleteFor sure , like in every sif in Shulchan Aruch there is a machloket and it is clear that there are those in the USA who disapprove of what is done in Israel , but I can assure you that the Rabbanut is dominated not by DL Rabbanim and I rely upon them - You have the right to disagree
ReplyDeleteBecause the letter writer got semicha from his father, and he is a Rabbi in one of the shuls in the community where the couple lives.
ReplyDelete“a gentleman who waits the statutory three months of clarification after his (apparently) childless brother died to wed the widow through levirate marriage, and then some time later discovers that the widow had been pregnant all along from her original husband, with the fetus being concealed. Since the brother acted in good faith, his unlawful incest is deemed to be anoose, not shogeg.”
ReplyDeleteZechariah Thus said the Lord of Hosts: I will rescue My people from the lands of the east and from the lands of the west, and I will bring them home to dwell in Jerusalem. They shall be My people, and I will be their God—in truth and sincerity., Thus said the Lord of Hosts: The fast of the fourth month, the fast of the fifth month, the fast of the seventh month, and the fast of the tenth month shall become occasions for joy and gladness, happy festivals for the House of Judah; but you must love honesty and integrity. (8:7-8,19).
מלבי"ם זכריה פרק ח פסוק ג
כה ולכן כה אמר ה' שבתי אל ציון, דעתי לשוב אל ציון שתהיה שכינתי קבועה שם כמקדם, וגם ושכנתי בתוך ירושלם בין העם, שתהיה שכינתי בתוכם ושתשוב אליהם הנבואה והקדושה וכל מחמדיה אשר היו לה מימי קדם, אבל זה תלוי בתנאי אם ונקראה ירושלים עיר האמת, ע"י שיעשו שם משפט אמת בין אדם לחברו וגם שידברו אמת באמונה, ואם יקרא הר ה' צבאות הר הקדש, ע"י שכהניה יהיו קדושים לאלקיהם, כבר הזכרנו (למעלה ז' ג') בשם הרי"א שישראל פחדו אז שישובו ויגלו בגולה והיה זה מפני ז' דברים ובא פה להסיר החששות אחת אחת, כמו שבאר הרב, שעל החשש הראשון שיראו מפני שראו שלא שבה השכינה בבית שני, אמר שיש אפשרות שישיב שכינתו לציון אם ייטיבו מעשיהם לעשות אמת ולהתהלך בקדש:
Malbim says that G-d will dwell among us if we improve our actions, specifically, truth and honesty one to another. This is key for G-d to dwell among us.
Of course, the fellow who waited 3-months before going to his sister-in-law, and wow, she was pregnant from the dead brother ---- That fellow is is deemed to be anoose, pure accident, and not shogeg, not intentional but not pure accident.
Can we say Tamar is pure accident ? It has all the earmarks of pure intentional lacking truth and honesty, what Zechariah preaches about.
I'm still confuseI thought that the couple lives in Philadelphia. On the other hand, the letter writer signed that he's from Montreal, Canada.
ReplyDeleteNot sure about whos'e advising AF. I suspect that the posting here on DT is a test balloon/survey to test the public's reaction to AF hypothetically remarrying without a HMR. IMHO, he should be advised to seek one before remarrying, as you have posited.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry that I gave you more credit than I did. After providing you with a link to a serious halachic work, I assumed that we could have an intellectual discussion regarding the merits of the issues raised in the book, particularly the problem of Get me'usa.
ReplyDeleteHowever your response indicates that you prefer a simplistic approach of conflating an extremely complex subject into a mere "machloket" between USA and Israel. This approach not only reflects a lack of of competence (or unwillingness) of dealing with a serious subject, but also reflects total ignorance of the fact that leading rabbis and dayanim in ISRAEL have weighed in on the subject matter of the book and endorsed its message. So it's not Israel vs. USA. It's rabbis in Israel calling out other rabbis in Israel for their distortion of halacha and judicial process.
You conclude with a declaration that you rely on the position of the Rabbanut, over the so-called USA position, without providing a substantive reason for doing so. This follows your previous assertion that the dayanim in Israel are more in touch with halacha and reality than some of the poskim in the USA. All this
without any data to support your thesis. Is this an emotional issue for you? Cognitive dissonance?
Not sure what the confusion is. The letter writer got semicha from Rabbi Joshua Shmidman, who was from Montreal. Rabbi Avraham Shmidman, his son, is a rabbi in Philadelphia.
ReplyDeleteNot helpful. But it's not a Tosafos that we need to waste time over. However I note that the Baal Hablog also conveniently deleted the abstruse phrase which had been confusing me, replacing it with [...]
ReplyDeleteI am grateful to Ha-Rav ha-Ga'on R. Eidensohn for publishing my letter, and to all the talmidei chakhamim who responded. I read the responses and enjoyed them all. Rashi to Exodus 20:22 comments that if inanimate stones which bring peace are guaranteed to be spared from the sword, then how much more so will a human being who makes an effort to bring peace between a husband and wife be rescued from retribution. Certainly, that reward is appropriate for all who have commented here.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, the Gemara, Yoma 9a-b, explains that Chofni and Pinchas at Mishkan Shiloh required atonement for causing a delay to married ladies to return home to shelom bayit. The inverse message that I deduce from this Gemara is that those who respond swiftly to bring shelom bayit between a husband and wife are acting correctly. So, again, thanks to all those who responded so swiftly to my letter.
The Gemara,Ketubot 63b, teaches that - in certain situations - the Beth Din announces in the synagogues that the wife is encouraged to return to
shelom bayit. To me, this implies a general truism that the synagogue is endowed with a role to perform in brokering shelom bayit (-a paradox to the simultaneous halakhic truth that ladies and gentlemen must worship
separately in the synagogue). Accordingly, I thought my letter would be of interest to the Mara de-Atra of LMS.
R. Aharon Feldman's letter of 7 Marcheshvan, 5776 indicates that he wishes to receive feedback from his interlocutors as to whether they concur with his analysis. Since the Gemara, Chullin 24a, indicates that sometimes it takes up to five years for a person to learn a discipline, and since five years have not yet elapsed since Rabbi Feldman formulated that letter, (le-havdil ani ha-katan) my own letter invokes the "ha-adam bi-shevu'ah" exposition as a hypothetical possibility to restore shelom bayit.
the phrase was deleted after I received a request to do so
ReplyDeleteA response to IsraelReader concerning the book Mishpatei Yisrael and the Rabanut in Israel. When RDE shared the book I showed it to a Rosh Kollel and Dayan who sits on R' Nissin Karelitz's BD and from just looking at the tone of the book and the agenda he was not too complimentary . I have spoken to R' Shlomo Dichovski and he reassured me that he knows when and how to kofeh a get. Today I spoke to a Dayan and he also reassured me , that all the p'sakim are well founded in halacha and mentioned many gedolim who were also dayanim. He preceded to explain the differences between him , his colleagues and the authors of the book Mispatei Yisrael . The book tries to be glatt, tries to go the chumrah according to most of the shittos whereas they focus on the desired outcome and rely on shittos that are OK be'dieved . For eg going le'kulah and be'dieved would be the right thing to do for a chiloni couple - if the husband would not give a get , the wife would be me'zaneh tachtav – commit adultery. This approach also reflects an attitude and a responsibility for all Jews and commitment to make the system work for the country as a whole. The agenda of Mishpatei Yisrael is different - p'sak should be glatt, the chumrah and any problems will be solved by starting a record of יחוסין and creating a separate nation. Another problem with going le'chumrah is the possible interference from Ba'agatz and legislation impacting negatively on the gittin process in Israel. This does not seem to bother someone who is set on creating a separate Jewish entity. From what I have read on the blog here , there could be legislation in the USA that does the same thing. So my point – if BD go le'chumrah , let them also take responsibility for the consequences
ReplyDeleteAllan Katz quotes a follower of bet din focus on the desired outcome and to rely on leniencies and after the fact, especially for secular people, that would commit adultery.
ReplyDeleteI like Allan Katz analysis. There is chumrah and le’kulah and de’dieved in mezuzot and tefillin and in meat etc. Fine. Both exist in Israel.
My complaint is that the K-G heter is way beyond a chumrah and le’kulah and de’dieved difference of bet din opinion. This is similar to my complaint before the NYS Court of Appeals Susan v Gerald 2017-262.
I never was interested in money. I never cared, specifically to stay married to Susan. I turned to the rabbis in Jerusalem. I told them I didn’t think Susan really wanted a divorce. They advised me to send Susan a get and see if she’ll accept it. I never had a problem with divorcing Susan, if that’s what she wants. I never had a problem with returning wedding-present money to her father, if that’s what she wants.
I ask the NYS Court of Appeals to reverse Prus’ decision for me not to contact his court. Such a decision is justified only for people that make frivolous motions. I never made a frivolous motion. Judge Prus insights Susan to enforce me paying $25,000 fines of Judge Rigler and Judge Garson. Judge Prus insights Susan to turn to the Social Security to garnish my social security. Judge Prus may think that he’s bringing an end to the 26 year saga, that started with Rabbi Irwin Haut’s testimony. Judge Rigler and Judge Garson wanted an end to the court proceedings, but their actions did the opposite ---- instigating for Susan to demand more and more with no end in sight.
The K-G heter is horrible/terrible. It makes for Tamar v Aharon to have no end in sight.