Chaim Levin & report card - NY Times |
update: added the original complaint
NY Times A group representing parents and former students at ultra-Orthodox yeshivas accused the de Blasio administration on Wednesday of dragging its feet in investigating their schools, out of fear of alienating a constituency that the mayor has assiduously courted.
In July, 52 parents, former students and former teachers sent a letter
to New York City’s Education Department saying that 39 yeshivas were
violating state law by not providing students, particularly boys, an
adequate education in secular subjects like English, math and science.
The Education Department said then that it would conduct an
investigation of the yeshivas, located in Brooklyn and Queens.
But
on Wednesday, the group behind the letter held a news conference in
front of City Hall to express its frustration with the lack of any
apparent progress in the investigation.
“It’s
eight months later, and there’s no sign of a serious investigation
taking place,” Naftuli Moster, the leader of the group, Young Advocates for Fair Education,
said. “In fact, all indications are that the D.O.E. is just stalling
us. In the meantime, tens of thousands of boys — we estimate around
30,000 — are not getting a basic education.”
update
The group’s lawyer, Norman Siegel, a longtime advocate for civil liberties, said he believed the reason the investigation was stalled was that city officials did not want to cross ultra-Orthodox leaders. [...]
Chaim Levin, 26, who attended the news conference, said that when he was a child, his yeshiva, Oholei Torah in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, offered no English education at all. He showed his third-grade report card, which listed marks in prayer, the study of Torah and Talmud, Hebrew spelling, penmanship, Yiddish and Jewish history. He said he was now in his second semester of college and was hoping to become a lawyer, but that he was dreading having to take a math class, because he had never learned algebra.[...]
========================================================
Yaffed
YAFFED is an advocacy group committed to improving educational curricula within ultra-Orthodox schools because we fervently believe that every child is entitled to a fair and equitable education. Our work involves raising awareness about the importance of general studies education, and encouraging the leadership of the ultra-Orthodox world to act responsibly in preparing their youth for economic sufficiency and for broad access to the resources of the modern world.
We encourage compliance with relevant state guidelines for education while maintaining respect for the primacy of Judaic studies and the unique cultural and religious values of the ultra-Orthodox community. Our mission is to ensure that all students receive the critical tools and skillsets needed for long-term personal growth and self-sufficient futures.
Chaim Levin, 26, who attended the news conference, said that when he was a child, his yeshiva, Oholei Torah in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, offered no English education at all. He showed his third-grade report card, which listed marks in prayer, the study of Torah and Talmud, Hebrew spelling, penmanship, Yiddish and Jewish history. He said he was now in his second semester of college and was hoping to become a lawyer, but that he was dreading having to take a math class, because he had never learned algebra.[...]
========================================================
Yaffed
YAFFED is an advocacy group committed to improving educational curricula within ultra-Orthodox schools because we fervently believe that every child is entitled to a fair and equitable education. Our work involves raising awareness about the importance of general studies education, and encouraging the leadership of the ultra-Orthodox world to act responsibly in preparing their youth for economic sufficiency and for broad access to the resources of the modern world.
We encourage compliance with relevant state guidelines for education while maintaining respect for the primacy of Judaic studies and the unique cultural and religious values of the ultra-Orthodox community. Our mission is to ensure that all students receive the critical tools and skillsets needed for long-term personal growth and self-sufficient futures.
Ah. Such noble people, with Noble ideas.
ReplyDeleteThey'll have the same end as the rest of the agitators of the Jewish people.
Mr. Monster had been agitating and railing against Judaism for years now.
ReplyDeleteIf YAFFED was run by Shomrei Torah U'mitzvos it may have a fighting chance. However, Moster is clearly OTD and proud of it - his wedding was loaded to youtube for all to see. Look at his website - there are no Rabbonim or community leaders who endorse him which makes his entire organization suspect. In my opinion he only one step behind Footsteps. I'm not saying there is no problem but filing a lawsuit instead of working within the Frum community sends a very different message.
ReplyDeleteOk, right, many of these people aren't well meaning. But this issue happens to be a real legitimate issue and it needs to change. This needs to happen through baalei batim pressuring rabbonim to do something about it. I wonder if anyone here has any ideas. I am literate and knowledgeable and am by no means off the derech even in the slightest way but my children aren't educated and I feel sorry for them and I feel I have short changed them.
ReplyDeleteIf you speak to them in English and teach them to read, all will be fine. You aren't shortchanging them in any way, just because you listen to G-d's Torah and not wasting their time.
ReplyDeleteAs long as they can read, (and diligently learn torah) they'll be a first rate college student if they choose to be one.
On the whole, this isn't a "legitimate issue". Mr. Moster went to college with his BELZ education. Yes, he struggled for a bit. But, for the most part, college life was/is easily accessible to him and his ilk.
"Chaim Levin, 26, who attended the news conference, said that when he was
ReplyDeletea child, his yeshiva, Oholei Torah in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, offered
no English education at all. He showed his third-grade report card,
which listed marks in prayer, the study of Torah and Talmud, Hebrew
spelling, penmanship, Yiddish and Jewish history."
He offers third-grade Hebrew report card as "proof" that he received no secular education. Wow, how disingenuous!
I too attended Brooklyn religious schools, and we always received TWO different report cards. One for Jewish studies, and a SEPARATE report card for secular studies. Hey, Chaim Levin. cut the baloney, and show us your other report card, which you surely got.
You aren't really correct - I have cousins in CH who sent their kids to Ohalei Torah but hired tutors for them so they would have an adequate secular education. It is my understanding that there is absolutely no curriculum there at all. However this may not be true of most of the Frum mosdos in the NY area; most of us had 2 separate report cards.
ReplyDelete😕 oh, please, if Lipa Shmelter can get into college with his New Square edu, so can every graduate from a Brooklyn Yeshiva....
ReplyDeleteIf imigrants off the boat from India and Asia can persue a higher education, so can every New York native. .... 😕
I'm not talking about the ability to go to college. I'm talking about knowing things which are truly useful and make a person well rounded and very often are useful in studying Torah also. The knowledges of the way things in the world are and the way they operate enhance the person and offer sophistication and broadness of mind which is useful in a person's every endeavor and in everything one studies. Etc.
ReplyDeleteYou say that I should teach them to read. So you are not being realistic. How can a father of a large family who is already doing the most he can, be expected to be the English teacher too. And if you say I should teach them then you aren't against them being taught, so why can't they be taught in Yeshiva? And what about math? Should I teach them that too? Is that realistic? And some science? Geography? Do you think all of this is shtusim? Should we all be people who know none of these things?
You say that I should speak to them in English. I have a chassidishe home and I want to speak Yiddish with my children. So I want them to be taught English in Yeshiva as an important subject.
It's not against The Torah to study parperaos lechochma and it's not a waste of time. Also most children have a limit of how much they can learn in a given day and I don't think they would lose anything in terms of Torah study if they would take some time for important secular studies. I think the education system is falling very short. Most kids who graduate yeshiva aren't talmiday chachomim. So they are kairayach mikaan vekairayach mikaan.
I think an honest reevaluation of the yeshiva system needs to be done.
By showing ONLY Jewish studies report card, this guy wants us to believe that were absolutely no secular studies. This is probably a fraudulent claim.
ReplyDeleteCheck again with your cousins in CH if Ohalei Torah offered any secular schooling. While your cousin might have wanted a higher level curriculum, this is not to say that there was zero education offered.
Absolutely nothing offered.
ReplyDelete1. You're not talking about going to college. Got it. What are you talking about? "Knowing things which are truly useful and make a person well rounded"? Do you really remember the stuff you studied in 5th grade? nonsense. As long that the mind is working, whether learning Torah or studying math, a child's mind will develop well. It offers "sophistication and broadness of mind which is useful in a person's every endeavor and in everything one studies."
ReplyDelete2. You have an issue about me "not being realistic". "How can a father of a large family who is already doing the most he can, be expected to be the English teacher too." Reading is much different than other studies, and it's pretty easy to teach when a student is young. If the child is expected to read on his own, he will progress on his own. If there's no expectation at home, then, yes, there's going to be a problem. THIS IS ALSO TRUE WHEN THE CHILD HAS A PROPER EDUCATION AT SCHOOL. If the child isn't expected to read on his own, he'll always have a problem reading.
Question: assuming your child has 25 children in his class, and secular studies are taught for 2.5 hours a day (10 hours/week). How much reading will you son do if he only reads in class?
Assuming the teacher has five subjects to teach, that leaves two hours of reading per week. Now divide that by 25 children. Exactly how many seconds are left for each student to read out loud???? Are you really questioning the need for a child to read at home????
I have news for you. Reading is taught in ALL of the local yeshivas. ALL OF THEM. Virtually all yeshivas have some sort of Title I program for reading and math.
Reading is obviously the most important subject. A person who can read, can teach himself and learn every other subject. Reading, coupled with a good yeshiva education creates the perfect, well rounded person.
3. If you expect English to be a primary language, they must be able to practice it. Getting the chance to speak it for 10 hours a week, won't cut it. How well do you speak Aramaic? You can't have it both ways.
4. You admit that you have an issue with the quality of the Torah education you choose for your son, but choose to blame the English Department for their lack of being "well rounded".
Perhaps a choose a better school. Or choose to be a better parent, and choose to be involved in your children's education.
Your choice.
Nationally, 19 percent of high school graduates are completely illiterate. A much larger number only read at an elementary school level. The vast majority of graduates from Chasidish schools, read at least that well - if not better.
ReplyDelete---
It is claimed that a certain singer had a learning disability and was completely out of school since the age of 12.
(All this just proves your point.)
Back in the alte heim most Jewish boys completed cheder and some basic yeshiva and then learned a trade. Only the recognized iluim continued on to kollel and they lived lives of poverty. Now we have this dangerous innovation in which everyone is expected to go to kollel but, even worse, live a decent middle class life based on someone else's money. This lack of respect for tradition and the way of our fathers which is dressed up as a supreme form of piety is an insidious work of the yetzer.
ReplyDeleteThe job of a school is to teach people how to think. Knowledge is secondary because knowledge can easily be acquired once a person knows how to think and learn.
ReplyDeleteWith this in mind, a yeshiva that fails to teach a boy how to think and learn has failed. But, if a boy acquires these skills in yeshiva, learning something else needed for parnasa (e.g. a college degree) is not difficult. This is analogous to a person getting a BS in one subject and a Masters in a completely different subject. If he knows how to learn, it is easy to pick up new knowledge in a totally different field.
So, why should there be a rush to teach advanced secular subjects to yeshiva boys? Teach them how to think and learn in their formative years. And yerias shemayim... Once they get older and their minds are better able to filter out the garbage, then it may be time to teach them secular studies for parnasa. Community colleges are more than happy to teach pre-algebra, English writing skills, etc., to 20 year olds.
Advanced secular subjects? Many chassidim can barely read English!
ReplyDeleteThant's like saying that you don't have to let your baby-toddler walk around the house, all you have to do is explain to him how to walk and let him do exercise to tone the body and other hand movements to teach coordination but why let him run all over the house and to terrible twos things. But this argument isn't true because you need to teach hands on. If you hamper the child in this way he will be crippled for life and there will be catching up, maybe some sort of compensating, but it won't be the same as someone who learnt how to walk in his formative years. What do mean learn how to think? You learn by practicing it. There are many types of thinking and studying and all need their own practice and hands on experience. Also you're saying that people should learn all of these things as grown adults. That's not realistic and it usually doesn't end up happening so in the real world they just remain unsophisticated, uneducated and unknowledgable forever.
ReplyDeleteYou say filter garbage. What garbage? Math and English and the true parts of science isn't garbage. Aderabeh! If you show them the way an ehrliche Yid approaches secular subjects they will be prepared end fortified to broach these subjects late in life. If you don't then when the day comes that their eyes are opened to the secular world, they are totally unprepared and the dangers are great that they won't be able to weed out the garbage.
I feel that your answer and disingenuous. You are towing the party line but not being honest. In the real world it doesn't work the way you say. To argue with you and tear down your argument point by point would be easy but useless because you don't have an open mind. I have written my posts here for those who do have an open mind. For them I have written enough to give them food for thought to figure out the truth.
ReplyDeleteSome who read my posts on this topic might think that I'm this modern person and all sorts of images of me might come to mind. So I just want people to know that I am ultra ultra orthodox from an illustrious ultra orthodox family. I love the ultra-orthodox community and despise modern orthodox leniency. I am presenting what I believe is the truth because the truth is the most valuable thing we have to decide what's right and what's wrong and how to handle our affairs in all aspects of our lives.
ReplyDeleteNice way to cop out of a legitimate reply.
ReplyDeleteIf it's easy to refute my post, please do.
Na, I got your background right the first time.
ReplyDeleteHis point, like mine, is that when a child is challenged to think, answer, deduce, ect, he grows from it. The subject matter is irrelevant. Learning gemora or chmuish does the trick nicely. Its not theoretical learning.
ReplyDeleteReally? "towing the party line"? Where is he towing it to? Was it parked illegally? More importantly, where did YOU go to school??
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be saying that learning Torah does not teach a person who to investigate a subject, imagine, analyze, etc.
ReplyDeleteSo, are you saying that a 10 year old who has never been taught nuclear physics is crippled for life and could never go into that profession?
Using your arguments, why not just show every 8 year old R rated movies so he knows that there are thousands of ways to kill people, curse, and engage in immoral behavior?
And who is the arbiter of this truth you speak so poetically of?? You, because you come from an illustrious ultra orthodox family etc etc?? Or are Yeshiva's and Mosdos allowed to consult and rely on their Daas Torah to come up with the educational policies for their mosdos? If you feel strongly about a particular style of education, you are free to send your children to schools that fit that profile. Otherwise, you should stop saying daias about things that don't concern you and about which you are not very qualified to speak.
ReplyDeleteAnd many Asians come to the United States with English language skills that are almost non-existant. They are still highly successful in universities. Why? They learned how to learn back in China, India, etc.
ReplyDeleteI agree. But, that does not mean that we need to teach our 15 years Kant. It means we need to teach them analyitcal skills and study skills. They need practice in order to grow their brains.
ReplyDeleteHarry seems to think that these kinds of skills cannot be taught by learning Torah. If that is his experience, it is very sad. Torah learning is the best way to learn and practice. Then... once it comes time to learn a trade (which is almost always a university degree in today's world), the trade will come easy.
By the way, l'havdil, I think the opposite is also true. If you look at a new BT who is trying to learn Torah, you will find that the most successful learners are ones who have had good secular educations. High school dropouts usually fail at any sort of learning - Torah or otherwise.
This documentary is based on a fallacy that secular education is mandatory for getting ahead in today's society. The current crop of secular college grads would disabuse you of this notion by indicating the great difficulty of getting a decent job based on your college degree nowadays.
ReplyDeleteChassidim and Yeshiva grads can make decent livings being plumbers, electricians and many other types of non education based jobs. I've heard that people can make a fortune working in fine marble but it is difficult to find anyone capable of doing it nowadays.
I was told that a UPS delivery man in Lakewood was surprised at the great and varied number of people that received merchandise deliveries from him. Many have been successful in working in businesses selling various and sundry types of goods. The truth is that someone successful in their own business can succeed far more than a standard office worker.
They will be first-rate college students after they shell out the money for remedial courses in math and english. You do not receive credit for them but they are required if you cannot pass the initial test.
ReplyDeleteHow much money? how much time?
ReplyDeleteMr. Moster, the man of the hour, was forced to take a single English Course as a condition for successful admission to college.
Is that price to high to pay?
Why are you so angry at me for stating my opinion on this forum which is here for the free exchange of views? I think I am entitled to give an opinion, and your angry tone is out of place.
ReplyDelete1. The Torah has in it all chochmas and all types of analysis, but most people don't know how to extrapolate them from The Torah and in order to grasp them all, need to learn them each specifically.
ReplyDelete2. Nuclear physics is not for an 8 year old child and it comes after a person has learned all of the preceding information.
3. Because R rated movies are assur to watch and are damaging beguf vanefesh. Math, on the other hand, and English language, and some other subjects, are a healthy and safe. Can you see the difference?
Do see how you are unable to think clearly because you are so blinded by the need to tow the party line. Please open your mind. And if you think my mashal is lacking, maybe I didn't exert tremendous effort to think of the perfect mashal, but if you have the open mindedness to want to see someone else's point of view, you could understand my point and see the validity in it.
That's an English expression.
ReplyDeleteYour second question is a fair question and I was expecting someone to ask it. Starting from when I was in my lower teens, my father made the expense to supply me with qualified teachers with whom I had extensive learning time over the course of several years. I am grateful to him for that.
1. I generally remember most of what I learned in my school years. This includes English language(vocabulary, spelling, comprehension, letter writing etc), Math(all applications with decimals & fractions, algebra, trigonometry), science(laws of phisycs, chemistry, medicine, biology, astronomy and more) and other subjects. In all of these I am better than most of my peers who were supposed to be learning limuday kodesh while I was studying these. Somehow they never cought up even though their minds were exercised through gemara. I am better than them in Limuday kodesh too because my mind has been taught to think in many different ways which are all needed for gemara. I wouldn't say it but you compelled me to say.
ReplyDelete2. Your theoretical hypothesis is flawed in it's logic but rather than getting into a lengthy argument in which you will most likely never admit to anything, let it suffice to say that your theory is not borne out in reality. The fact is that most who have gone through these Yeshivas have a hard time with many applications of the English language, not to mention all of the other subjects(some of which are mentioned above).
3. So you're saying all or none? I'm saying that we should try to improve the system.
4. I didn't complain about my son's Torah education. You are not being honest by saying that I said so. I am a good parent and I do spend lots of time with them with all sorts of good things, and your argument here is simply dishonest. That is to attack me personally as if that is addressing the issue.
I have done so. See above.
ReplyDeleteOf course he grows. 'הפך בה כו. But realistically speaking, he will not end up knowing English language(vocabulary, spelling, comprehension, letter writing etc), Math(all applications with decimals & fractions, algebra, trigonometry), science(laws of phisycs, chemistry, medicine, biology, astronomy and more) and other subjects. And those things are important are are very useful to a person, and a person who lacks the knowledge of those subject is severely hampered.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Eidenson, would you like to weigh in?
ReplyDelete1. I highly doubt that you needed eight years of education to achieve your understanding of decimals and fractions. Most of the subjects you list can be easily learned as a child grows or, when he gets older.
ReplyDeleteYour absurd notion that your mind is more developed than your peers solely due to your ability to understand and learn trigonometry, is frankly pathetic. Do you really believe that the great minds of yesteryear didn't live up to their potential due to a lack of secular education? R' Moshe? R' Yoel? I'm not sure who your heroes are, but whoever they are, I doubt most of them had a satisfying secular education.
2. You indicate that ". The fact is that most who have gone through these Yeshivas have a hard time with many applications of the English language" . Fact according to whom? When a child is spoken to with proper English, he learns accordingly. When a child is in a bilingual household, his primary language will not be English. It is you, not the school who's responsible for teaching your son a proper English.
The fact is, there are thousands upon thousands of college graduates who have gone through the very system you despise. Those are the facts.
3. The Yeshiva Education system as it stands today can be better. So can virtually every aspect of Jewish life. The always room for improvement. Just because someone with an ax to grind the chooses to bring it up now, doesn't make the proper time to discuss this issue.
So yes, it is all or nothing. Us vs them
4. Yes, in a backward way I am attacking you personally. I believe that education for parents are in order, for parents to understand that it isn't the schools responsibility that your son learns. It's your responsibility. The school helps, but it still your personal responsibility.
As a parent you seem to be failing in this regard. I'm sure you do many things well, and although I don't know you personally, I genuinely believe you. That doesn't make you a good parent, doing their best for the child education.
Noting how many children you have isn't the answer. As I've indicated above, the sheer amount of children per class makes it impossible for a English language learner to successfully learn to read and speak a proper English in the classroom alone. This is a fact.
I am on my way back to Israel
ReplyDeleteHow is chemistry, astronomy and physics etc. important for the average chasid's life?
ReplyDeleteJust to be clear, me having an open mind depends on whether or not I agree with you. Thanks for pointing that out
ReplyDeleteWhy are you so angry at me for stating my opinion on this forum which is here for the free exchange of views?
ReplyDeleteWhy can't you answer his questions? Why did you resort to some silly, false attack in lieu of an answer? Sounds like your the angry one running from debate and discussion.
1&2. You are that technically it is possible to learn things at an older age, especially if the person is accustomed to using his mind. But you are not addressing my main point. I am saying that lemaaseh they don't end up knowing these subjects. I doubt that you will deny this. As far as your point about there being college grads who have gone through the yeshiva system, that is an indication that it is possible to learn afterwards, but it isn't a viable solution. I don't think that you're suggesting that we prefer that our chidren go to college rather than learn some secular studies in the safe environment of the yeshiva.
ReplyDelete3. Again let me clarify. I am not one of the trouble makers you suspect me of being. I'm just expressing my thoughts that this area needs to be improved and some changes need to be made. You may be right about it not being the proper time to discuss this issue, but I am mentioning it because it was brought up, albeit by people with not pure motives. So I am hoping that the issue can be discussed in earnest.
4. I don't think the discussion about me as an individual is so relevant. You are perhaps being idealistic but certainly not realistic. I think the purpose of the yeshiva is to be a shliach of the father to fulfill his role of lelamdo Torah. Everybody from the time of R' Yehoshua Ben Gamla knows that it isn't realistic to expect the father to do it on his own. It is also not realistic lehavdil for secular studies. The metzius shows that it doesn't end up happening.
It's useful to me in knowing and understanding many things about out world. To me it seems like a funny question for an intelligent person to ask why we need knowledge. If you don't value knowledge and you don't see it's purpose then I have nothing more to say to you because we don't speak the same language.
ReplyDeleteNo. When one doesn't see the difference between watching R rated movies and learning math, there are 2 possibilities. Either the person is mentally impaired or they have closed their mind to this issue. You don't seem mentally impaired so you probably are closed minded.
ReplyDeleteBut you could continue arguing your point, but I had enough. As I said earlier, to argue with you and tear down your argument point by point would be easy but useless because you don't have an open mind. I have written my posts here for those who do have an open mind. For them I have written enough to give them food for thought to figure out the truth. You compelled me to answer you to prove that I can answer but I was yotze that. So go ahead and have the last word.
Lechaim Uleshalom. So I'm looking forward to seeing what you have to say on the matter.
ReplyDelete1. I have since answered.
ReplyDelete2. My intention was not to give credence to my statements. They should be judged only in the basis of their merit. My intention was to say that you shouldn't suspect that I am speaking out of wrongful motives chas Vesholom, but that I am speaking in sincerity. Whether or not you believe me in this is your prerogative and not in my hands.
Using your arguments, why not just show every 8 year old R rated movies
ReplyDeleteso he knows that there are thousands of ways to kill people, curse, and
engage in immoral behavior?
The relevance of this to the argument is precisely zero.
I have no doubt that Lipa paid vast sums to private tutors to get him up to speed.
ReplyDeleteWhen one doesn't see the difference between watching R rated movies and learning math, there are 2 possibilities. Either the person is mentally impaired or they have closed their mind to this issue.
ReplyDeleteSounds like you're the one who has closed his mind to this issue. No one was saying that they are same. He was saying that you need to prove its necessity to young children. Quit the ambiguity, and clearly explain precisely what type of math is necessary - in your opinion - for children. Clearly explain the benefits of each type of math.
American cultural norms does not necessity make.
The actual expression is "toeing the line." But it's a common mistake. I've seen it made even in prestigious publications.
ReplyDeleteDo you really believe that the great minds of yesteryear didn't live up
ReplyDeleteto their potential due to a lack of secular education? R' Moshe? R'
Yoel?
You can't compare our very best minds to average minds. Average people might very well benefit from learning different modes of analysis, different ways of thinking about a problem, research techniques, organizing a paper, and so on. I myself believe they do, but the trade-off might not be worth it. It's a real question, though, not some shetus.
חכמה בגוים תאמין
"But you are not addressing my main point. I am saying that lemaaseh they don't end up knowing these subjects. I doubt that you will deny this"
ReplyDeleteLet's break down that sentence into two parts:
first, that it's imperative that children learn the subjects in order for to develop their intellect and,
not knowing those subjects in it of itself, is a problem.
My point and the point some of the other posters, is that you're wrong on both those thoughts.
As I noted above, we, as a Jewish society, have managed to bring out the very best of intellectuals over the years. Virtually all without a formal secular education. Learning Torah in a serious fashion molds the mind just fine.
I highly doubt do you believe that in order to be successful in life you have to know the history of the Civil War. My point again, and some of the other posters, is that if it becomes a necessity at some point of a young man's life, he can easily learn it.
Lastly, you seem to be (intentionally?) missing my point about English as a first language. Both reading as a subject, and English as it relates to speaking and communicating correctly and with sophistication, takes practice. It's not something that's learned in school. Children who grow up in some African-American households, speak Ebonics. I have a Brooklyn accent, specifically because of the environment I grew up in. The language we use reflects the language of the society we grow up in. When a child comes home to parents speaking Yiddish exclusively, that child will not speak English as a youngster with proper vocabulary and sophistication. When he goes up, he can practice and learn the language but that is little to do with yeshiva education.
Reading works the same way. It's mostly done outside of school, with the core underpinnings towards in the classroom. But without parental involvement and constantly demanding a child to work on his own, there's no way a child becomes a good reader. Unless of course, he is a natural inclination to read.
You can provide the child more Torah knowledge and less knowledge of astronomy - or less knowledge of astronomy and more Torah knowledge.
ReplyDeleteWhich do you choose? Torah or Astronomy?
Sometimes they only test English before admission. I have seen many bright Yeshiva boys struggle in college due to their inability to do algebra or write coherently. The ones who didn't have good vocabularies were also struggling. They needed remedial courses, but you are correct that they're not always required. After the bochurim flunked their first couple of courses they realized they needed a tutor. Agmas Nefesh and wasted money. The worse situations are when they manage to scrape by with Cs in prerequisites until hitting more intensive material. It's always better to catch the problem earlier rather than later, and spending some time on it as a child is a lot easier than when you're married and desperately trying to support a growing family.
ReplyDeleteI guess I didn't have enough of a secular education so I ended up making an embarrassing mistake ;)
ReplyDeleteAre you insinuating that I compared the two? Newsflash: I didn't
ReplyDeleteIsn't it wrong and almost criminal to bury one's talent? If a person wants to be a plumber, fine. But what if one of these boys really dreams and has the talent to work as a lawyer or any white colar profession? Life is not only about money. It's like condemning the kids to belong to a certain "caste", like in India... someone is born to a caste and that's it. No matter if s/he has a wonderful mind, the caste system will determine how far s/he goes in life.
ReplyDeleteAny English grammar teacher would disagree with you...
ReplyDeleteIf he wants to be a plumber or a tzedaka collector, none.
ReplyDeleteIf he wants to be a University professor, a doctor, a scientist etc, etc, etc, then...
The difference is that while the immigrants WANT to go up in life and study a lot for that, hassidim are conformed to where they are and do not even dare to aim for Universities.
ReplyDeleteSadly true.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand. Why don't those parents that have an issue with the education that is being provided, or not provided, do what most people do with regard to schooling. That is vote with your feet. If I don't approve of a schools education philosophy, I don't send there. The Chassidic yeshivos do not misrepresent themselves. There is no secret that they have minimal secular education, if any. Just pick another school!
ReplyDeleteOr he could have gone to a public library and taught himself....
ReplyDeleteLike many many Americans from inner cities who can't afford tutors.
But in Lipas' case you're probably right. Besides keeping a 4.0 GPA in performing arts is much different a 4.0 in pre-med.
Btw have you ever visited Manhatten's super electronic store called B&H?
I can read and write better then both CEOs of that company. Heck, I probably know more Geography, History, and English Lit.
But you know the ironic part? They make more money then I can ever dream off.
In fact I'm probably more educated then the majority of the employee in that Willy Wonka shop of Electronics... Yet many of them still make more money than I do (if juding by the cars they drive is any indication). Especially the ultra chassidish managers....
So edu isn't always everything....
Just staying.
They want to stay in their kehilla.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Eidenson, would you like to weigh in?
ReplyDeleteI'm not talking about what's needed for parnossa. You'll see that I never mentioned that. Nor have I mentioned preparing for college. I'm talking about having some knowledge. Some people here don't seem to see the value in that.
ReplyDeleteCan someone kindly tell me what the down side is in knowing math, science, geography and the English language? Why are we against it?
But you know the ironic part? They make more money then I can ever dream off ... So edu isn't always everything....Just staying.
ReplyDeleteGuess what? Money isn't everything either. I'd rather be me than them.
Or he could have gone to a public library and taught himself.... Like many many Americans from inner cities who can't afford tutors.
ReplyDeleteOh, puhlease. What have you been watching? Something "inspirational," I bet.
No, it's about social skills to understand a gentle nudge. You responded instead by jumping on it, trying to explain it as an English expression.
ReplyDeleteThe complaint just listed isn't regarding this specific lawsuit. It's about the one in Rockland County, that was recently dropped.
ReplyDeleteNon-jewish wisdom is basically embedded into Western culture. The question is, is learning non Jewish wisdom, as a separate subject, a prerequisite to fully develop a young man's mind? I don't think it is.
ReplyDeleteDoes learning about American history vs Jewish history make you more sophisticated and smarter?
I'm not disagreeing with you, but, as noted earlier, it's readily doable. Do you think college is a walk in the park for public school alumni?
ReplyDeleteChasidim go a lot higher up in life than Asians. One's focuses going "up in life" in Torah and the other focuses on gashmius.
ReplyDeleteHe has no need to be a university professor or a scientiest. We don't need to gear every chasidic child's elementary and high schooling towards making a potential scientist out of them all. Torah is more important to focus on. Plumbers, diamond merchants, shop owners, and stock brokers make a pretty decent living. You don't need to be a doctor to make a living.
ReplyDeleteJewish kids dream first about being talmidei chachomim first with their parnassa being secondary to being an ehrlich yid. And the focus in on the Torah not on the money.
ReplyDeleteIf the tradeoff to learn more geography and more science is learning less Torah, more Torah is better than more geography and science.
ReplyDeleteBut it does not cover ALL Jewish kids... some want to be talmidei chachamim AND something else. It should be taken into consideration. Not all kids fit the same shirt.
ReplyDeleteThe Chovos Halevovs clearly states that you should find a livelihood which you enjoy and are capable of doing. It also needs to be capable of making money. As R' Aharon Feldman once told me, you cannot become an elevator operator nowadays and claim that you did your hishtadlus.
ReplyDeletePhysics comes in handy for plumbing. Pressure differentials, flow vs resistance, and Poiselles equation are very relevant.
ReplyDeleteAgain, you're talking as the voice of ALL jewish kid, which is a delusion... I'm not talking about "making a living", but about one's dream and personal talents. Suffocate the talents and dreams of an individual (I'm not talking of the group, but of a single individual) and condemn him to live a life he wouldn't have chosen, if he had the power to chose, is wrong.
ReplyDeleteNot all, Moe. Not all... some go off the derech, some live double lives, some live in extreme poverty and are unhappy about that, wishing they had had a better opportunity in life. Anyhow... hassidim live for the group, but at the end of the day, they're individuals, and that should be taken into consideration.
ReplyDeleteThey also have their struggles, but they're almost never starting a family in college. I am nispael at the mesiras nefesh of those in college with families, especially women who also have most of the household responsibilities.
ReplyDeleteThey don't want to be ostracised or suffer verbal aggression from members of the community and their own family.
ReplyDeleteWhen living in a group, people conform... that's a psychological thing. The fear of disagree of the group is too much and the individual ends up doing what everybody else does, no matter how irrational it is.
Staying in their kehilla means adopting the lifestyle of the kehilla, which includes minimal secular education. It's not by accident that the kehilla doesn't have secular ed. It's a deliberate choice.
ReplyDeleteIt's not about the facts, although there is use in them too. It's about the methods of learning, which do help you think more clearly and in a more organized way. Scholarly methodology, critical analysis, presentation of ideas, etc. These things are not embedded in the culture, contrary to your claim. They need to be learned, and it almost never happens in yeshiva.
ReplyDeleteWhat is that supposed to mean? It is indeed a common expression, as Harry said.
ReplyDelete"Scholarly methodology, critical analysis, presentation of ideas"
ReplyDeleteDid you ever learn a תוספות??
He misspelled the expression. That's how the tow truck came up.
ReplyDeleteSo how is going to the Board of Ed keeping their heads down? If anything, it will create greater animosity. I can't believe that they think that their names won't come out.
ReplyDeleteBy definition, that is what being part of a group is. The hippies advocated each person should have a personal lifestyle of his or her own choice, and not be bound by the constraints of society. The result of this was that they created their own society with everyone in it conforming to each other. You wouldn't find a hippie in a 3 piece suit. I know many chassidim that sent their children to yeshivos with secular studies, and did not feel in any way removed from the Chassidus. It would appear that it has more to do with how they look at themselves and not how the mainstream chassidim look at them. In addition, I know many chassidim who went through the chassidshe school systems that became computer programmers, technicians, accountants, even doctors and lawyers (admittedly only a few of the last 2). It is doable, and these people tell me that it wasn't particularly difficult for them to do it. ( BTW, I won't send my children to a school without secular studies.)
ReplyDeleteAnyone with a Torah life is a lot higher than anyone without a Torah life.
ReplyDeleteNo, we are talking about societal schooling choices for the masses, not for yechidum or individuals. The general schooling choices in yeshivas, a curriculum designed for many students cumulatively, correctly focuses on Torah subjects over secular subjects.
ReplyDeleteThere are opportunities and training courses for those that want to advance with secular degrees. Why impose this burden on everyone because of the needs of a few? People who want to advance in computer careers can learn the skills on the job or in training programs.
ReplyDeleteIs Levin being dishonest by showing a report card without any secular classes. Every yeshivah I am familiar with (all of which do offer secular education ) provide their students with two report cards, one for limudei kodesh and one for secular education.
ReplyDeleteClearly, you have no idea what I'm talking about.
ReplyDeleteI for one love my kehilla but I disagree with some if the things and this is one of them.
ReplyDeleteHolier than thou unrealistic statement. I agree with you that malachay hashorais shouldn't waste their time with the mondain, but the rest of society including children who are simply human who play during recess and shmooz sometimes and have recreational activities, should also learn these subjects as part of their extra curricular activities. And they won't lose an iota of the Torah that they would otherwise learn. (Maybe even the opposite would be true.)
ReplyDeleteThen we should assur sports and eating nosh any and every dvar reshus because it's bitul Torah. But you might say people need recreation, so I say they need broadness of mind. I think to deprive them of this is a form of deprivation just as depriving them of any other dvar reshus and we have no business imposing prishus. We should serve cake for dessert and teach things that will give them this broadness.
ReplyDeleteThe gedolei rabbonim of your community disagree with you about teaching more geography at the expense of teaching less Torah. And less geography isn't prishus.
ReplyDeleteThere is good reason to minimize the teaching of secular subjects that are a not critical for most people's lives in order to maximize Torah study.
ReplyDeleteSorry but I completely disagree with you. Learning proper English grammar is not a burden, it's a necessity. Nobody want to stuck a computer in the classroom, what is really being advocated is basic secular education: math, history, geography, English (etc). Poverty is a burden, not education.
ReplyDeleteMasses that are conformed to live in poverty and feel threatened to speak for themselves. Masses who are not presented the prospect of 'choice'. Wait... this people never had the right to know what a choice really means, since their whole lifestyle is already dictated by group.
ReplyDeleteSo 100% of hassidim/haredim without secular education live a Torah life while religious jews who learn secular education don't?
ReplyDeleteYou talk about need, I talk about choice.
ReplyDeleteThese kids have no choice.
That's fine. I totally disagree with you so we're on equal terms.
ReplyDeleteWhy is English grammar important? Do you know where to put every comma and are you always scrupulous about avoiding run on sentences? So what if you violated that and violated a great many more rules that the vast majority that studied grammar ignores.
Math is useful and some minimal math should be taught.
History is a total waste. Leftist slanted history with adulation of minorities and disgracing of Israel and promoting of Islam is something we should scrupulously avoid. Common core government propaganda is another boondoggle that we have no need of.
Do you want your children learning geography where Israel is off the map and replaced by Palestine? Why is it important to know about outer Mongolia or even about all the countries in South America?
How about English literature including readings such as Catcher in the Rye from my day. Who knows what gender neutral abomination might be proposed in its place.
All of this has nothing to do with poverty. Those that know history and geography etc. have absolutely no advantage in the market place. As I indicated previously there are many other jobs that don't require education and provide a fine living. Moreover non focused education is totally useless in the current marketplace.
Schools and parents need to make a choice whether to focus on making talmidei chachomim or ehliche yidden or to focus on making physicists and rocket scientists.
ReplyDeleteSo your "choice" is to live a life hedonism and this being a free country that is your right. This community's choice is to bring up children in a life free of hedonism.
ReplyDeleteI don't See your point. A regular person does not utilize every second for Torah because a regular person needs variety in his life, so he has recreational activities etc and there is no reason that secular subjects shouldn't be in the mix. It doesn't really minimize Torah study. If anything it helps for Torah study.
ReplyDeleteDo you give your kids the choice to learn about foreign religions and culture? A choice to take a course on sex education? 10 year olds don't have a menu of choices they make on their own.
ReplyDeleteI know that what they hold. That's what the discussion is about isn't it? They disagree with me and I disagree with them.
ReplyDeleteThat's ok because I totally disagree with you.
ReplyDeleteWhat is important about English grammar. Do you know where to put all the commas and are you scrupulous about avoiding run on sentences? So what if you miss some and violate rules of grammar as is common among those that learned grammar.
Math is important and a minimal education in math should be provided.
Which history do you thing is important? What if they emphasize Leftist history and the wonders of Islam? Is knowledge of details of all facets of American history so crucially important?
The new geography wipes Israel off the map. It's a good lesson in anti Semitism that's not needed. Why is it important to know about outer Mongolia or all the countries in South America?
English is 2 level propaganda for gender neutral rights and for pushing common core to totally support Obama's agenda. What would they read today? In my time, we read Catcher in the Rye. They are likely to prescribe something much more toxic.
All of this has nothing to do with poverty. A general college degree will get you nowhere nowadays.
Individuals might disagree, but the kehilla policy is what it is. A choice to remain with the kehillah is a choice to send to a school that conforms to the policy.
ReplyDeleteEsty does not mean give children the choice now, when they are children, but give them the skills and basic knowledge to allow them choices later, when they are adults. That is not an unreasonable idea.
ReplyDeleteThe skills to choose an intellectual discpline should one desire do not necessarily equate with hedonism. Not at all. I don't see why you equate the two.
ReplyDeleteGrammar is not about commas and run-on sentences. Without knowing proper grammar, one is unable to puts words in a sequence that will transmit the desired message to the listener. The fact that chocolate milk and milk chocolate are not the same thing is due to grammar.
ReplyDeleteThe prince in the palace is educated to be a leader and ruler. He is not educated to facilitate his becoming a carpenter or tradesman. He may one day nevertheless choose to be a carpenter or tradesman, but one cannot fault the King for not making that an easy choice for him to pursue should he so choose.
ReplyDeleteAmerican history doesn't help Torah study, to take a very common curriculum in secular studies. And whatever you eat, you eat so you can better serve Hashem. Whenever you sleep, you sleep in order to better learn Torah. And the minimal amount of recreational activities you engage in, you do so to refresh yourself so you can serve Hashem at your fullest strength.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree with your example. Chocolate milk and milk chocolate are different in meaning and grammar offers no tools to resolve that problem. A misplaced comma can sometimes cause the problem that you describe but most people will intuitively understand where the split should be placed. However, how much effort should be expended on this and what will be displaced by learning it.
ReplyDeleteWow, you have been well indoctrinated. I give those that filled your brain with these ideas much credit.
ReplyDeleteI teach kids, and I can tell you the following: when you undermine their secular education, you are also undermining their limudei kodesh. Refer to the halacha of teaching children on Tisha B'Av. They wouldn't enjoy it (so it might be permitted), but the teacher would and it is therefore forbidden as well.
When you give kids the freedom to disdain education -- as your mini rant does -- they will disdain all of it. I have seen it in practice.
One other thing: how much of a מדקדק can you be in your mitzvos, given how flippant you are about the ignorance you portray to the outside world? Write a document with a host of grammatical errors? No big deal to you, apparently. Know little to nothing about the history of your native country? No biggie to you. 'Minimal' math only....after all, heaven forbid a child might become intrigued by the analytics and conceptual skills required....and broaden their world accordingly.
Feh.
Ridiculous! ADULTS in their lives attempt to impregnate kids with the 'become a talmid chochom' mentality. Kids are kids, and they are much more enthralled with a fireman or a police officer than a talmid chacham.
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way, that is positively normal. Don't wring your hands over it. The drive to excel as a Torah learner comes much later (if at all), except for the most select few, or in every Artscroll biography ever written.
And you want the school to teach them 'how to think' by giving them full license to realize that when it comes to secular subjects, they don't have to think. I get it. More problematic, however, is that the kids get it, too.
ReplyDeleteMoe, learning American history (and other subjects) does wonders for childrens' self esteem. Some are interested in history, some in math, some in language. It broadens their minds, and THAT is what helps their Torah study.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to think that every single kid at 10 or 12 just finds Gemora-Rashi-Tosfos to be gevaldik geshmak...taam Olam Haba. Such beliefs are not just ignorant, they are dangerous, mostly because they shred individuality (and therefore self esteem).
This isn't a 17th century shtetl anymore. Life is complex in our day, and kids need to learn how to navigate in it. And the VAST majority need to support themselves through life. Give them a below standard education, and you handicap them on many levels.
Ah...now there is a foolproof method to become an Or Lagoyim. Either be as illiterate as a fifth of them are, or else barely literate like the majority of them are.
ReplyDeleteAnd, when I last checked, most parents don't want to compare their children's accomplishments to those of the learning disabled. Moreover, that singer proves nothing, since no one here knows how many כוחות had to be expended making up for the disability. Why would anyone think that is the preferred method of operating??
That is not grammer, that is reading comprehension. I happen to agree wit facts of life. How many people that had an education remember Geometry, Chemistry or the rules of Grammer?
ReplyDeleteI happen to remember History and Geography because those were subjects I had a particular interest in. ( I suppose if someone took an interest in geometry, they would remember it as well).
There are very few professions, even white collar l, where these subjects are necessary. Although grammer may be helpful for an attorney, these subjects are not required for an Definitely not for an accountant, or Dr.
Being well spoken is important in business, but frankly, that is not something that someone who speaks yidish as a first language will have an easy time with, regardless of what he is taught in school.
I do think it is important for students to have what they need in order to pursue a profession, however, it doesn't really require much more than a piece of paper with a high school diploma.
It is a rule of English grammar (as opposed to say, Hebrew grammar) that when there is a noun-adjective combination, as with "chocolate" and "milk," the first modifies the second. Therefore, "chocolate milk" is a type of milk, while "milk chocolate" is a type of chocolate. That is a rule that non-natives speakers of English (which many of our Chassidish brethren are) have to learn. This is just one example; there are many many others. As for what will be displaced, as a true Litvak, I would say that sifrei chassidus would be a good start :)
ReplyDeleteI don't see how missing out on most of American history will handicap a Yid later in life.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you keep up with this blog? I assure you that learning gemara and shulchan aruch and chumash etc is far far more valuable. Or do you have some sort of double standard?
ReplyDeleteWhat makes what you teach education and not indoctrination?
ReplyDeleteYour point of view is one that was strongly rejected by Rav Aharon Kotler z"l where in his time people considered those that didn't get a college degree intellectually stunted and an incomplete human being. The implication is that Torah is not complete and you need secular gentrification to elevate a person. Torah is the ultimate perfection and elevation of a person and external studies are only useful in the pragmatic advantage they offer. They are to be disdained if they don't offer this and even worse when they indoctrinate false and anti Torah viewpoints such as gender neutrality and the value of Western culture above a Torah lifestyle and point of view.
Most intelligent people will pick up enough English to handle it well without formal grammar lessons. Your distorted representation of massive errors in a document might be accurate in a totally Chaddish framework but not in the standard Litvish framework. What analytical and conceptual skills are you talking about that a person well versed in Talmud would be missing?
What about the false values and evil indoctrination that is going on in the current curriculum? Your world might be missing without your secular knowledge but others who are shielded from its detraction are on a much higher plane.
All the high schools in Lakewood don't have secular studies. Are they all stunted?
Look, I totally understand that I am screaming into the wind here.
ReplyDeleteRav Kotler has been dead for over 50 years. The challenges he faced in the aftermath of the destruction of Europe are light years away from the challenges of today's world. Unfortunately, that is the nature of galus; it is always a changing landscape. To reference his worldview now - with no acknowledgement of what's happened in the intervening years - is either childish or ignorant. I must call it for what it is.
"False and anti Torah viewpoints"
Nothing new here...been this way since Nimrod in Bavel. There's a whole segment of frumkeit, however, that is self-confident enough in our religion and our values and believes we can instill those values in our children so they can function in the world, and not just in a locked closet. I guess the group you represent doesn't have that self confidence.
"What analytical and conceptual skills...?"
I am willing to bet you know little of child education, but think about this: The Talmud itself says that Gemara study is appropriate at 15 years of age. Where would you recommend children get analytical and conceptual skills - and a background to use them - during the first 15 years of their life? Science has already proven that those first 15 years are invaluable in brain growth and development. How do you reconcile this dichotomy?
As for your "much higher plane" argument...sorry, I prefer to defer to Chazal: אל תאמין בעצמך עד יום מותך
"All high schools in Lakewood don't have secular studies."
Outstanding. Not only are "all high schools in Lakewood" breaking New Jersey State law, but the school administrators are also training the next generation of נשמות טהורות that law breaking is OK.
And to add insult to injury, you are proud enough of that fact to proclaim it on a blog comment.
Forgive me for repeating myself: Feh.
Perhaps you're correct and I shouldn't read this but rather be learning Torah. Indeed I am moida. But I'm not going to turn my failing into a l'chatchila and say that it is better to read this blog or to read American history than to learn Torah. Better for both of us, as well as anyone else, to spend every second we've been reading this blog or reading American history and instead learn Torah.
ReplyDeleteAh...now there is a foolproof method to become an Or Lagoyim.
ReplyDelete1) Who decided that it is your job to be an "Or Lagoyim?" Where did you pick this "commandment" up from?
And, when I last checked, most parents don't want to compare their children's accomplishments to those of the learning disabled.
Straw-man stupidity. Who ever said that they do?
----
Moreover, that singer proves nothing
Are you aware of what percentage of collage graduates are not properly literate? The universities block proper studies, but a collage degree does not ensure proper literacy. Additionally, what percentage of collage graduates over the past 15 years are either unemployed, "volunteers", or have low-wage jobs? Add that to the terrible college debt that they are straddled to.
------
The singer who it is claimed that he was out of school since the age of 12 does prove that if there is a will, there is a way.
Another reason to learn it.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you talking about sexual education? Is that what you think secular studies is about?
ReplyDeleteOne of the greatest disasters that Inquisition brought upon humanity was the destruction of the intellectuality that was so common for Jews from Western Europe.
ReplyDeleteA person can be a talmidei chochomin AND educated in secular studies.
I think your problem is that you don't know what secular studies really means.. I'm not saying that in a offensive way.
Why are you so focused in sexuality? Are you aware that you're thinking too much about it?
ReplyDeleteGeography, History, Math, English, Math... that what secular studies means. No hedonism here.
Moe, Astronomy is not for little children or even teenagers... it's a University course. People who chose to learn Astronomy will do it in their 20's or 30's...
ReplyDeleteAnd... for your information... the Vilna Gaon loved Astronomy... and Math.
I think you have the false and anti Torah viewpoints reversed. Your sick fascination with stock wasted secular studies is due to your bias in that you make your money from it. Nothing radical has changed in the intervening years to invalidate his point of view and you are certainly not in a position to judge. Your obvious secular and non Torah based attitude is totally invalid for this discussion.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Kotler was 50 years ago and he timed out according to you. Why don't you just discard all the Tanoim and Amoraim becuase they were so far in the past? There is a certain value to some secular studies but the gain has to be weighed against the loss and you are totally ignoring the pernicious garbage of LGBT propaganda, anti Israel history and new world geography. Even without this, you have not demonstrated any gain that would mandate teaching these things across the board even for societies where they have no need for it such as Yeshivish ofr Chassidish societies where they have their own ways of providing a living and managing in modern society without the albatross of needless and often warped secular studies. These people are just as successful as your people in society and more successful in warding off the negative effects of slanted studies.
The Talmud certainly does not mean that one should leave their Torah studies to gain questionable secular skills in order to reach the proper analytical level. There's no question that they mean maturity attained through Torah study. Anyone who knows anything about learning would tell you that.
אל תאמין בעצמך עד יום מותך refers to a persons self confidence that he will not sin and takes undo gambles. It's clear to any objective clear thinking individual that those that can avoid unnecessary secular studies and are only absorbed in holy studies are on a higher plane but perhaps your undue involvement in propagandizing secular nirvana has tainted your point of view.
There probably is a value in sanitized secuiar studies but they should not be imposed on everyone.
To your sanctimonious and warped non Torah point of view - triple feh
Why are you bringing up your sexuality? No one mentioned anything about sexuality until your brought that up.
ReplyDeleteAnother poster brought astronomy into this discussion. I merely responded to that.
ReplyDeleteThe seforim state that a large reason Hashem brought about the Spanish expulsion, was because of these poor moral state of the communities at the time.
ReplyDeleteYou sound like someone who has absolutely no idea that teachers of secular education are HIRED after several interviews and have to follow the code of ethics imposed by the school.
ReplyDeleteNo teacher is sent by any "leftist conspiracy office", as your imagination is telling you.
Now... how learning proper English GRAMMAR in a classroom is pushing people to support Obama is indeed a mystery.
- Ok kids, today we'll learn the rules of 'relative clauses', the relative clauses give meanings to... oh... wait! Wait! Nooooo! Why are you all looking like Democrats now?
(the imagination of some of you guys is reeeeeeeally fertile)
I know nothing about you, nor do I know how you make a living, or if you are in that Parsha at all.
ReplyDeleteMaking a living (at least by normal, common standards) requires interacting with people who are either irreligious or not jewish. It happens every day.
You seem to be in a race to the bottom, with your quotes of literacy in the average populace and the like. Let us know when you have completed your study on the terrible financial straits college graduates suffer with, as opposed to those that never attended college. I would love to see the results you bring in.
It boggles the mind that we are having this conversation. For most of our history, the Jews excelled in education among a populace that was frequently illiterate and uneducated.
Today, we have commenters like you and Moe who are looking to shut the door on education outside of a Talmudic one that is failing large percentages of the frum world.
Some editorial. Prove it.
ReplyDeletePS: And lest you (or anyone) claim I avoided the issues, here's a starting list of the assertions I'd like you to prove:
1) "Have their own ways of providing a living...and are just as successful..."
2) "No question [it's referring to] maturity attained through Torah study"
Your dismissal of Rav Kotler zt'l is completely off base. His position on this topic is as relevant today as is was when he expressed it.
ReplyDeleteKJ only is considered impoverished due to large family sizes and poverty calculated based on per capita income. They make as much income as the average American, but instead of 2 children per family they have 10 children k'h.
ReplyDeleteProper English, and grammar is sooo important!!
ReplyDeleteCommas are your friends!!
ReplyDeleteYou need formal classes to speak and write English properly.... Who are you kidding?
ReplyDeleteDo you see anything wrong with this sentence: about what to wear to a formal event:
ReplyDelete"Don't wear black people!"
Lol, most people from yiddish / Hebrew speaking homes need a proper English class to explain why why "I want milk chocolate and pizza" is not the same as "I want chocolate milk and pizza"....
ReplyDeleteIt's disrespectful to wear black people so don't do it. /sarc
ReplyDeleteFirstly, they won't eat that goyishe stuff. Secondly, what's so bad about chocolate and pizza? :-)
ReplyDeleteLol, absolutely, positively, nothing at all!!! 😸😸🍕🍫😸😸
ReplyDeleteHow is everybody busy with blogs and also surfing the web to find all kinds of things and at the same time saying that we may bot learn math science and and English because it's bitul Torah?
ReplyDeleteWhich seforim?????? Are you OUT OF YOUR MIND???? So what do your seforim say about ALL the pogroms and persecution over the Jews of Eastern Europe? What about the Cruzades? Were the thousands of Jewish lives anihilated because of their "moral state" also? The total destruction or forced conversion of the Jewish people is the goal of the European mind since the Council of Nicaea. Every council of the Catholic Church (Roman Empire lost its power and the only way to save it, was to create a religious power that would "unify" and conquer the world, and preserve those in power, thanks to Constantine and his "dream") got tougher and tougher on the Jews, until the "era" of forced conversions and expulsion. All the hundreds of thousands of Jews who died since "creation" of Catholic Church, in 325 of common era, died because of poor moral state? Really? You're an ignorant. European mentality, whether Eastern or Western were shaped by several councils of the Catholic Church, from 325common era until the 1965, the last council (Nostra Aetate), where finally the Church "forgave" the Jews and taught that Christians should not persecute and stated some "friendly" thoughts about other religions. Western Jews were expelled not because of the behavior of the Jews, but because the kings and queens of Spain and Portugal were devoted Catholics, whose faith was shaped by centuries by extreme anti-semitism, council by council. Your seforim are wrong.
ReplyDeleteYou brought the problem to the table, I just named it by its real name.
ReplyDeleteIf a person misses or violate grammar rules, this person will be seen as an ignoramus.
ReplyDeletehaha
ReplyDeleteThe seforim have a lot to say about all of that. Tach V'Tach, as you may know, has been directly attributed by the Gedolei Rabbonim from the time to have occurred due to talking in shul. The holocaust has also been attributed to have occurred by various Gedolei Rabbonim to the serious amount of Off The Derech experienced by European Jewry in the decades before WWII. (American Jewry, take note.) So it is no big chiddush that the expulsion was attributed by Sephardic rabbonim of the time to the poor moral State in Spain leading up to the Inquisition.
ReplyDeleteYou are aware, aren't you, that 50% of Spanish Jewry converted to Christianity at the time of the Inquisition and/or expulsion.
ReplyDeleteIt depends on the context and the degree and frequency of errors. No one is going to be faulted for who or whom. Intelligent people will generally pick up a reasonable level of English just from every day usage.
ReplyDeleteGrammar is useful in a modern Orthodox setting and for those who have secular studies built in. It is not necessary in other societies where they have different priorities.
One minor point, violate should be violates.
English is my second language. For me, it's a lost case. For you, English speaker, it's not. Anyhow, do whatever you want. Be seen as an ignorant or not is your choice, not mine.
ReplyDeleteYour seforim are COMPLETELY wrong!!!! The Spanish Inquisition started in 1478, using the most gruesome forms of torture ever imagine by the evil human mind on Jews, forcing them to convert. Whoever couldn't take the tortures anymore, converted. Sorry, you have no idea of what the word Inquisition means. From its establishment, at the end of 1470 until the expulsion, 1492, it was 20 years covered in Jewish blood. Men, women, children, seniors... the Inquisition didn't forgive or forget anyone. Inquisition initiated in the 12th Century, officially arrived in Spain in the 15th and finished in 1834 or 35. Five hundred years of unspeakable torture methods and killing for the entertainment of the religious authorities and the masses (yes, burning Jews to the stake was a public event, everybody loved it). The Jews who unfortunately had to convert in order to escape the tortures, kept their traditions very alive inside their homes. They had 2 names, 2 identities, one to use in public, one to inside the house. They created fake saints in order to celebrate Jewish holidays (Santa Ester Festival, for example, to celebrate Purim), they created Passover recipes to avoid Inquisition spies, The ones who fortunately escaped Spain for Amsterdan or England (Spain's worst enemy) returned to Judaism. As many others throughout the centuries, upon finding out their Jewish routes. An article from Yated Ne'eman (haredi publication) about the double lives Jews had to face in order to PRESERVE their Judaism, in the hopes that they'd be free one day to fully practice it: https://yated.com/how-the-anusim-kept-pesach/
ReplyDeleteI disagree.
ReplyDeleteThe Cruzades annihilated thousands of Jewish lives.
French Jews were killed by the thousands in the 14th Century.
Italy was the first country to close Jews in the ghettos.
Inquisition of Eastern Europe and in special, Spanish Inquisition did not forgive anyone.
Russian Jews suffered pogroms after pogroms.
Not to say the not-so-peacefull relationship Mizrahim Jews had with its Arab neighbors, which claimed many Jewish lives.
The Shoah covered almost the whole Europe in blood, being preceded by the Niremberg Laws, that set the tone for the disaster that reached even the Sephardic community of Rhodes, among other places and people that were not in Europe.
Your books are totally wrong. Specially when talking about Spanish Inquisition.
You disagree with the Seforim HaKedoshim? Hokey dokey.
ReplyDeleteThat's simply a historic figure. About half of Spanish Jewry converted to Christianity. No one disagrees it was done under torture or duress. Nevertheless it occurred. It is also true to say that most who converted eventually assimilated into Spanish Christianity. You could be a marrano and keep kosher secretly at home after coming back from Sunday Church services, and if one's lucky even his children and maybe his grandchildren could keep up this secret life, but eventually after several generations, not to mention hundreds and hundreds of years later, the vast majority of the great-great grandchildren have intermarried and long forgotten the secret lives. A small number of people may have still had some hint of the old secret Jewish customs, maybe light a candle in a closet every Friday night, but even their grandparents had long intermarried and assimilated for the most part into Christianity.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to think that one has to accept the historical analysis found in mussar works of the Rishonim. Do you have a source for such an assertion?
ReplyDeleteWhile the Rambam clearly states that one should look for causes for disasters - I have not seen any claim that the causes proposed (outside of what is found in Chazal and the Prophets) are of necessity the correct ones. The causes are used as motivation - but are not necessarily true.
It is especially problematic when the alleged causes of disaster are things such as women wearing sheitels - which clearly are justified by major poskim.
How do you view the Tosfos Yom Tov's saying that Tach V'tat was a result of talking in shul?
ReplyDeleteAs I said - the Rambam says to look for causes of tragedies in order to encourage people to do teshuva. Where does it say that one is required to accept that the statements are in fact the cause? We are not talking about prophets or Chazal.
ReplyDeleteAre you asking whether I think that the slaughter rape and torture was the result of talking in shul - I personally do not. I do agree that the statement has been a useful tool to cut down talking in shul.
You are wrong. You should understand that if Hashem brings about such a decree, there is a reason for it. Rav Yosef Yaavetz, otherwise known as the Chosid Yaavetz was an expulee himself. He searched for the reason why it happened and wrote a sefer about it.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.ou.org/judaism-101/bios/leaders-in-the-diaspora/rabbi-yosef-yavetz-the-chasid-or-the-darshan/
The Jews who unfortunately had to convert in order to escape the tortures
ReplyDeleteThey could have left, but chose to stay. As the Chosid Yaavitz pointed out, only those whose belief in Hashem was not based upon secular philosophical methodologies were able to bring themselves to abandon their material possessions, and stick with their eternal possessions.
There is no way to judge them, but the lesson must be learnt. https://www.ou.org/judaism-101/bios/leaders-in-the-diaspora/rabbi-yosef-yavetz-the-chasid-or-the-darshan/
Do you disagree with Rabbi Yaavetz?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.ou.org/judaism-101/bios/leaders-in-the-diaspora/rabbi-yosef-yavetz-the-chasid-or-the-darshan/
More importantly, do you think that he was so wrong that even his premise was wrong? Meaning, secular philosophical methodologies are positive tools to be used as way to believe in Hashem and learn His Torah?
Why did about approximately 300,000 Spanish Jews abandon Judaism? They had all the secular knowledge and powerful and important societal positions? And it is not coincidental that out once-beloved Germany grew the greatest destruction to the Jewish people.
There is a Gemara which describes the tragedies that befell Hanina ben Teradion and his family. I had heard this many years ago and it was very scary, especially how little things brought on very big punishments. But as Rambam says, we should not dismiss aggadot on face value but look deeply to learn the message they are concealing.
ReplyDeleteUltimately we cannot know what caused other people's suffering, unless we have clarity of Ruach Kodesh or Nevuah. Gehinnom is a place on earth, actually just down the hill from the Diaspora Yeshiva. Similarly, all the punishments in the Torah are this-worldly (unless Karet is about he next world).
Is this statement also valid for the SHOAH? Why European Jews didn't flee?
ReplyDeleteIt's sad to think that in the future, people will seriously ask this.
As in EVERY single persecution, the rich ones are the first ones to leave, the middle-class do their best and the poors are left behind. Moving from a city to another was extremely difficult 500 years ago. Keep in mind: from the warning edict until the date of the expulsion was just 4 months!!!! How to manage an escape in 4 months??????? I have not yet read about how the Jews found out about the edict, but I believe that many found out just last minute, since the news traveled by the speed of a horse or human feet. Perhaps some Jews who lived in rural area only found out when it was too late. I hope find out more about it one day.
The thousands who could financially afford moving to other countries, did it. And even though, "Spanish ship captains charged Jewish passengers exorbitant sums, then dumped them overboard in the middle of the ocean. " as stated in another website. Not to say the thousands that died on the way... that were fooled and trapped... how to deal with women, children, food, transportation????
Unfortunately Portugal was the closest and easiest country to move... and once thousands of Jews got there, they were trapped. No way to return to Spain, no way to move anywhere. And that's when the bnei anussim reached the New World.
And even in the New World, we see the rule of the wealthy happening again. When the Deutch ruled in the Northeast of Brazil for a few decades in the 17th Century, a few thousand Jews (1000? 3000?) lived there (escaped from Portugal). Once Portugal regained that territory, whoever was rich left for Amsterdam, whoever could not afford, stayed behind.
The 'seforim' mentioned to justify the Expulsion are wrong. I bet they were written by Jews who never saw, either by picture or in a museum, Inquisition torture tools (not to mention tortures that required no specific tools, like tying up someone 's leg on a horse and let the horse goes free on a path of rocks, as stated in some accusations)
Chosid Yaavitz never learned that it was extremely expensive to escape by ship 500 years ago. Material possessions? A cow, 5 goats and a few chicken were not counted by the ship captains as "material possession".
Whatever he wrote is just HIS interpretation of facts, it's not the truth.
ReplyDeleteI can write MY interpretation of facts as well. You can write yours, as well.
The difference is that MY interpretation also includes Russian Jews, Eastern European Jews, Israeli Jews, Mizrahim Jews... all Jews who suffered persecution and death, from before the Cruzades until the Shoah.
Did they also chose to stay?
Historic figure? Take a look on Google on Inquisition torture methods and you'll understand better the "historic figure". Yes, the majority who stayed behind assimilated, and the few who still keep some traditions do not have funds to professionally research their genealogy. A lady from Miami did, though, she wrote a book 'My 15 Grandmothers' and got a straight maternal Jewish line for 15 generations until herself. Tons of money were spent, but she did it. I bought the book, it's quite interesting.
ReplyDeleteConversion was not their choice. That's why the name "forced" always precedes the word "conversion" when talking about Western Jews.
Ok... whatever... you guys will never read about it, anyways. Just know that not everything written in 'seforim' is right, because many of them only present the personal interpretation of a fact or situation. It does not represent how things happened, only what the author thinks about it.
In this case of Western/Eastern Jewish persecution, if the authors never learned History, yes, I disagree. Completely.
ReplyDeleteHistory is not base in "if" or "I think" either "I believe". History is based on facts. Therefore, only those familiar with the facts (through books of History and History teachers) have the right to write about it.
They didn't "convert" of their free will, they were forced to do so.
ReplyDeleteA Jew also is obligated to be willing to be killed rather than convert.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the holocaust, the Jews didn't convert. They were killed.
and what if he can't deal with the torture or the threat of torture? Does the halacha require not only dying but being tortured?
ReplyDeleteWhat you describe is insufficient to demonstrate halachic Jewishness. 15 generations of practicing Christians and now the great great great etc. granddaughter claims her research shows they were all born to Jewish mothers despite going to Church every Sunday and bowing to to Jesus for the past 500 years doesn't have their chazaka overturned by nebulous modern "research".
ReplyDeleteA Jew is required to let him and herself be killed rather than to convert.
I'm talking about Seforim written by Sephardic Achronim from the time of the expulsion who witnessed the poor moral state in the run-up to the expulsion.
ReplyDeleteThey were obligated to let themselves be killed rather than to convert.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the halacha in that situation as you understand the sources? I understand just as a Jew is prohibited from converting even if he will be killed, the same applies to torture.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the Spanish Inquisitions is concerned, as I understand the history, the Inquisition would torture people who they suspected of being Jewish but who claimed to be practicing Christians. They would attempt to use the torture to solicit an admission to being a secretly practicing Jew. The torture of the Inquisition was not to force conversion to Christianity of an openly practicing Jew who didn't claim to be Christian. Once the Inquisition established the claimed Catholic was a practicing Jew in secret, then they would burn him at the stake for the heresy of being a Catholic who secretly practiced Judaism.
It doesn't prove causality. There is a difference between claiming a causal relationship in order to get people to change and knowing that actual causal relationship
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't "prove" it on its own, but just like the Tosfos Yom Tov and other Gedolim from that time said Tach V'tat was a result of talking in shul, and we probably both agree that the Tosfos Yom Tov and his contemporary Gedolim are closer to Hashem's thinking and understanding that either you or I or anyone else reading this are, even if *we* don't have proof that talking in shul resulted in Hashem punishing us with Tach V'tat, since the Tosfos Yom Tov and the Gedolim advised us that is the cause, why should we not accept their assessment even if we lack other proof. We certainly don't have proof that Hashem didn't decree Tach V'tat due to talking in shil.
ReplyDeletedo you think that the prophets were unique?
ReplyDeleteWas there unanimous agreement that talking was the cause - or was this one of many reasons that were given?
How many talmidei chachomim said they didn't know?
Do you believe that the Holocaust was the result of the Zionists provoking the goyim?
Do you believe that the Six Day War was Maaseh Satan?
Are you in fact prepared to accept everything and anything big people say - simply because you don't have proof that it isn't so?
Are you aware that rabbis have no problem in using hyperbole in describing punishment in order to get people to comply?
Finally - what if you show me that thousands of people did teshuva as the result of the cossaks and the belief that they were being punished for talking in shul - but I can show you that thousands of people are turned off today when they hear such explanations. Would you agree that explanations that do not improve the situation should not be used?
The Torah itself has the Tochechah and also the punishment and exile for abandoning Torah and going after other gods. These punishments are for various Torah laws not being observed, eg Sabbath, Idolatry, justice etc. It refers to a time when we had nevuah, but it does not mention talking in the Beit Hamikdash.
ReplyDeleteThe difference is that MY interpretation also includes Russian Jews, Eastern European Jews, Israeli Jews, Mizrahim Jews... all Jews who suffered persecution and death, from before the Cruzades until the Shoah.
ReplyDeleteYou haven't offered a sensible explanation. And yes, there are sensible explanations to other unfortunate persecutions as well. Mixing and comparing apples to tangerines is precisely that, mixing and comparing fruit. It does not define nor explain anything.
Chosid Yaavitz never learned that it was extremely expensive to escape by ship 500 years ago.
ReplyDeleteAfter this very telling sentence, I will not respond to your rant. It is obvious that you did not bother reading the link to the OU website that I provided you. It is obvious that you do not know who the Chosid Yaavetz was.
Let me fill you in. He was in Spain himself, and left at around Tisha b'Av 1492. He studied with the Abrbenel. He knew exactly what leaving entailed.
BTW, the Abarbenel also wrote about his various attempts at getting other countries to accept Spanish Jews.
First, it's Pessach week... I'm tired... but I like coming here when I need to rest.
ReplyDeleteSecond... I did not see any link. I'm answering this as I open the blog and Discuss shows a little circle with a number, I click on it and voi-la! I don't go through the original post that originated this discussion... perhaps that's why I did not see your link. However, I looked for it on Google and found an OU article, hope it's the same. And it states: "He was absorbed with the meaning of the Spanish Expulsion and why it occurred, and wrote an entire treatise, Ohr HaChaim, in which he provided his interpretation. "
His interpretation.
His interpretation is not what exactly happened. In History, we must always read a minimum of 3 books about a fact (one for, one against and one "neutral") in order to get a better idea of what really happened.
And it also says "And in an oft quoted passage points out that the Jewish philosophers were the first to convert, whereas the simple folk, imbued with simple faith, refused to succumb." ---- meaning, how many philosophers were there 500 years ago? Not the entire population, for sure... just a minority of intellectuals...so... it's really HIS interpretation.
Have a wonderful Pessach and keep in mind: it's always good to discuss with someone who disagree with us. Otherwise, we'd just be clones of each other.
The explanation is: we can't explain a mass catastrophe based on a individual's opinion and personal interpretation.
ReplyDeleteSome catastrophes just go beyond our understanding and it's cruel to judge "why it happened" and put a stone upon the judgement.
Blaming the Expulsion of an entire population based on a certain number of philosophers who chose to convert to Christianity is wrong... such as it's also wrong to search for someone to blame for the horrors done in Russia against Jewish communities, as it's nonsense to question why most European Jews didn't flee Europe or fight during the Shoah or why so many Jews perished during the Cruzades...
It's cruel to answer such questions, because it can create a sense of self-righteousness, as if G'd forbid, our generation is better than theirs...
We know we're not. If past generations suffered so much, it's indeed a miracle we (in a general sense) are so prosperous today. Although we have challenges, they're not compared to the what past generations of Jews suffered.
Moe... many did.
ReplyDeleteSome even killed their own children (that's where the myth of Jews killing children to make matzah originated) to avoid conversion.
The Inquisition noticed Jews were not afraid to die, and that's why it shifted its attention to create several devices, too terrible to describe, in order to convince the "sinner" to "repent".
Besides, many, many children were kidnapped and converted by force... some were kidnapped and abandoned in desert islands to die... obviously the parents were left behind, knowing the destiny of their children... and it terrified other parents...
There are several theories why the Middle Ages got through such level of cruelty (my favorite one is in the book 'A Distant Mirror')... but weather the explanations are correct or not, the only thing we know is that the torture methods used by Inquisition are shocking even to our days.
There's a community of bnei anussim (Christian outdoors, Jews indoors) in Belmonte, Portugal, who thought they were the last Jews in the world until beginning of last century, when a Jewish engineer (if I remember well, he was an engineer) got there by chance through work and found out about them. Interesting story. They're not considered Jews today, but it's beautiful to see documentaries about how this small group of people did try to keep Judaism for centuries in a hostile environment .
Not so fast, Moe... that's now how it happened.
ReplyDeleteIn the book, most of her '15 grandmothers' suffered great persecution and most of her family was annihilated (burned, tortured to death etc)by the hands of Inquisition.
Her research has several, several Inquisition trials on her family... and the city where her family finally settled, Fermoselle, Spain, has hidden synagogues, mikvaot, houses with secret passages and underground corridors... all used by the Jews. So, in her specific case, her family didn't go to "Church every Sunday" as you might think. They risked their lives daily to daven in a minyan and use a mikva. Her story is unique, as far as I know, she is the only one who collected so many documents.
Her name is Genie Milgrom. I just typed her name on Google and she also has a website in English and Spanish.
Being killed is one thing.
ReplyDeleteBeing tortured by extreme methods, knowing that your family will suffer the same type of torture is another thing.
Inquisition didn't kill with swords... they tortured the prisoners with unthinkable methods.
The problem is that we are told by Chazal to seek (possible) explanations for disasters. These answers should be ones that motivate use to be better.
ReplyDeleteBut the answers that work for some people don't work for others.
Furthermore the explanation that philosophical thinking led to the breakdown of Yiddishkeit in Spain - is only one aspect. Philosophy i.e., hashkofa has also served as a major protection against non-Jewish thought and religion. You will notice the Rambam wrote Moreh Nevuchim and Rav Saadiay wrote Emuna v'Deos in response to the challenge of non-Jewish concepts, both philosophical and theological.
There is an ancient debate as to whether emuna peshuto is superior to a faith based on philosophical concepts (hashkofa). I bring the sources for both sides in my Daas Torah.
Bottom line. One size does not fit all and solutions offered that help some of the people some of the time are not solutions which help all the people all of the time.
The Inquisition gave the Jews of Spain the option of leaving Spain at the expulsion rather than convert to Christianity. Many Jews, unfortunately, did not want to lose their fortune, homes and place of living so they chose to convert rather than give up their home, fortune and place of living.
ReplyDeleteThe Jews were afforded the opportunity of fleeing and leaving all their earthly possessions behind prior to the expulsion edict, rather than convert.
ReplyDeleteWho said anything about philosophers? 50% of Spanish Jewry converted to Christianity.
ReplyDelete