Sunday, February 19, 2017

The culture war regarding same sex marriage

Guest Post

Barukh Dayan Emes: American civil freedom, a"h -


The Supreme Court dissenters on the same sex marriage decision -- all four of them, in fact -- cautioned us ominously regarding the culture war that their five colleagues' travesty of justice would fuel.  I excerpt them below, with parts highlighted germane to religious liberty.  (The dissents in their entirety can be found here, as can the Majority Opinion to which they reply.)

Justice ALITO gave an interview only a few months after the decision in which he spelled out the confusion wrought upon society when its laws are adjudicated without clear parameters - see last 7min of this interview.

In his own dissent to the same-sex marriage decision, Alito writes,

[This] decision will [...] be used to vilify Americans who are unwilling to assent to the new orthodoxy. In the course of its opinion, the majority compares traditional marriage laws to laws that denied equal treatment for African-Americans and women.  The implications of this analogy will be exploited by those who are determined to stamp out every vestige of dissent.  Perhaps recognizing how its reasoning may be used, the majority attempts, toward the end of its opinion, to reassure those who oppose same-sex marriage that their rights of conscience will be protected.  We will soon see whether this proves to be true.  I assume that those who cling to old beliefs will be able to whisper their thoughts in the recesses of their homes, but if they repeat those views in public, they will risk being labeled as bigots and treated as such by governments, employers, and schools. 

The system of federalism established by our Constitution provides a way for people with different beliefs to live together in a single nation. If the issue of same-sex marriage had been left to the people of the States, it is likely that some States would recognize same-sex marriage and others would not.  It is also possible that some States would tie recognition to protection for conscience rights.  The majority today makes that impossible.  By imposing its own views on the entire country, the majority facilitates the marginalization of the many Americans who have traditional ideas.  Recalling the harsh treatment of gays and lesbians in the past, some may think that turn-about is fair play. But if that sentiment prevails, the Nation will experience bitter and lasting wounds.

[...] Most Americans--understandably--will cheer or lament today’s decision because of their views on the issue of same-sex marriage. But all Americans, whatever their thinking on that issue, should worry about what the majority’s claim of power portends.


Justice THOMAS' dissent notes this issue of religious strife in pretty much the same terms:

Numerous amici--even some not supporting the States--have cautioned the Court that its decision here will “have unavoidable and wide-ranging implications for religious liberty.”  In our society, marriage is not simply a governmental institution; it is a religious institution as well.  Today’s decision might change the former, but it cannot change the latter.  It appears all but inevitable that the two will come into conflict, particularly as individuals and churches are confronted with demands to participate in and endorse civil marriages between same-sex couples.  The majority appears unmoved by that inevitability.  It makes only a weak gesture toward religious liberty in a single paragraph.  And even that gesture indicates a misunderstanding of religious liberty in our Nation’s tradition. Religious liberty is about more than just the protection for “religious organizations and persons...as they seek to teach the principles that are so fulfilling and so central to their lives and faiths.”  Religious liberty is about freedom of action in matters of religion generally, and the scope of that liberty is directly correlated to the civil restraints placed upon religious practice.

Although our Constitution provides some protection against such governmental restrictions on religious practices, the People have long elected to afford broader protections than this Court’s constitutional precedents mandate. Had the majority allowed the definition of marriage to be left to the political process--as the Constitution requires--the People could have considered the religious liberty implications of deviating from the traditional definition as part of their deliberative process.  Instead, the majority’s decision short-circuits that process, with potentially ruinous consequences for religious liberty


Chief Justice ROBERTS, in his plurality dissent speaks for all four (i.e., they all joined with his dissent (also the longest), which accordingly follows the Majority Opinion first in the Court filing) when he writes as follows:

Today [...] the Court takes the extraordinary step of ordering every State to license and recognize same-sex marriage.  Many people will rejoice at this decision, and I begrudge none their celebration.  But for those who believe in a government of laws, not of men, the majority’s approach is deeply disheartening.

[...] It can be tempting for judges to confuse our own preferences with the requirements of the law.  But as this Court has been reminded throughout our history, the Constitution “is made for people of fundamentally differing views.”  The majority today [...] seizes for itself a question the Constitution leaves to the people, at a time when the people are engaged in a vibrant debate on that question.  And it answers that question based not on neutral principles of constitutional law, but on its own “understanding of what freedom is and must become.”  I have no choice but to dissent.  Understand well what this dissent is about: It is not about whether, in my judgment, the institution of marriage should be changed to include same-sex couples. It is instead about whether, in our democratic republic, that decision should rest with the people acting through their elected representatives, or with five lawyers who happen to hold commissions authorizing them to resolve legal disputes according to law. The Constitution leaves no doubt about the answer.  

[...] Nowhere is the majority’s extravagant conception of judicial supremacy more evident than in its description--and dismissal--of the public debate regarding same-sex marriage. Yes, the majority concedes, on one side are thousands of years of human history in every society known to have populated the planet. But on the other side, there has been “extensive litigation,” “many thoughtful District Court decisions,” “countless studies, papers, books, and other popular and scholarly writings,” and “more than 100” amicus briefs in these cases alone.  What would be the point of allowing the democratic process to go on?  It is high time for the Court to decide the meaning of marriage, based on five lawyers’ “better informed understanding” of “a liberty that remains urgent in our own era.”  The answer is surely there in one of those amicus briefs or studies.  

Those who founded our country would not recognize the majority’s conception of the judicial role.  They, after all, risked their lives and fortunes for the precious right to govern themselves. They would never have imagined yielding that right on a question of social policy to unaccountable and unelected judges.  And they certainly would not have been satisfied by a system empowering judges to override policy judgments so long as they do so after “a quite extensive discussion.”

The Court’s accumulation of power does not occur in a vacuum.  It comes at the expense of the people.  And they know it.  Here and abroad, people are in the midst of a serious and thoughtful public debate on the issue of same-sex marriage.  They see voters carefully considering same-sex marriage, casting ballots in favor or opposed, and sometimes changing their minds. They see political leaders similarly reexamining their positions, and either reversing course or explaining adherence to old convictions confirmed anew.  They see governments and businesses modifying policies and practices with respect to same-sex couples, and participating actively in the civic discourse.  They see countries overseas democratically accepting profound social change, or declining to do so.  This deliberative process is making people take seriously questions that they may not have even regarded as questions before.  When decisions are reached through democratic means, some people will inevitably be disappointed with the results.  But those whose views do not prevail at least know that they have had their say, and accordingly are--in the tradition of our political culture--reconciled to the result of a fair and honest debate.  In addition, they can gear up to raise the issue later, hoping to persuade enough on the winning side to think again.  But today the Court puts a stop to all that.  By deciding this question under the Constitution, the Court removes it from the realm of democratic decision.  
There will be consequences to shutting down the political process on an issue of such profound public significance. Closing debate tends to close minds. People denied a voice are less likely to accept the ruling of a court on an issue that does not seem to be the sort of thing courts usually decide.  [...] Today’s decision creates serious questions about religious liberty. Many good and decent people oppose same-sex marriage as a tenet of faith, and their freedom to exercise religion is--unlike the right imagined by the majority--actually spelled out in the Constitution.  Respect for sincere religious conviction has led voters and legislators in every State that has adopted same-sex marriage democratically to include accommodations for religious practice.  The majority’s decision imposing same- sex marriage cannot, of course, create any such accommodations.  The majority graciously suggests that religious believers may continue to “advocate” and “teach” their views of marriage.  The First Amendment guarantees, however, the freedom to “exercise” religion.  Ominously, that is not a word the majority uses.  

Hard questions arise when people of faith exercise religion in ways that may be seen to conflict with the new right to same-sex marriage--when, for example, a religious college provides married student housing only to opposite-sex married couples, or a religious adoption agency declines to place children with same-sex married couples.  Indeed, the Solicitor General candidly acknowledged that the tax exemptions of some religious institutions would be in question if they opposed same-sex marriage.  There is little doubt that these and similar questions will soon be before this Court. Unfortunately, people of faith can take no comfort in the treatment they receive from the majority today.
Perhaps the most discouraging aspect of today’s decision is the extent to which the majority feels compelled to sully those on the other side of the debate.  The majority offers a cursory assurance that it does not intend to disparage people who, as a matter of conscience, cannot accept same-sex marriage.  That disclaimer is hard to square with the very next sentence, in which the majority explains that “the necessary consequence” of laws codifying the traditional definition of marriage is to “demean or stigmatize” same-sex couples.  The majority reiterates such characterizations over and over. By the majority’s account, Americans who did nothing more than follow the understanding of marriage that has existed for our entire history--in particular, the tens of millions of people who voted to reaffirm their States’ enduring definition of marriage--have acted to “lock out,” “disparage,” “disrespect and subordinate,” and inflict “dignitary wounds” upon their gay and lesbian neighbors.  These apparent assaults on the character of fairminded people will have an effect, in society and in court.  Moreover, they are entirely gratuitous. It is one thing for the majority to conclude that the Constitution protects a right to same-sex marriage; it is something else to portray everyone who does not share the majority’s “better informed understanding” as bigoted.


The recently departed Justice SCALIA, who expressly joined all three other dissenters, in his personally authored dissent was, as usual, the most scathing.  But his appendixed dissent focuses less on the issue of the Court participating in or fueling culture warfare.  It does, however, warn as follows:

[...W]hat really astounds is the hubris reflected in today’s judicial Putsch. The five Justices who compose today’s majority are entirely comfortable concluding that every State violated the Constitution for all of the 135 years between the Fourteenth Amendment’s ratification and Massachusetts’ permitting of same-sex marriages in 2003.  They have discovered in the Fourteenth Amendment a “fundamental right” overlooked by every person alive at the time of ratification, and almost everyone else in the time since.  They see what lesser legal minds--minds like Thomas Cooley, John Marshall Harlan, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., Learned Hand, Louis Brandeis, William Howard Taft, Benjamin Cardozo, Hugo Black, Felix Frankfurter, Robert Jackson, and Henry Friendly--could not.  They are certain that the People ratified the Fourteenth Amendment to bestow on them the power to remove questions from the democratic process when that is called for by their “reasoned judgment.”  These Justices know that limiting marriage to one man and one woman is contrary to reason; they know that an institution as old as government itself, and accepted by every nation in history until fifteen years ago, cannot possibly be supported by anything other than ignorance or bigotry.  And they are willing to say that any citizen who does not agree with that, who adheres to what was, until fifteen years ago, the unanimous judgment of all generations and all societies, stands against the Constitution.

[...] Hubris is sometimes defined as o’erweening pride; and pride, we know, goeth before a fall.  The Judiciary is the “least dangerous” of the federal branches because it has “neither Force nor Will, but merely judgment; and must ultimately depend upon the aid of the executive arm” and the States, “even for the efficacy of its judgments” (Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 78).  With each decision of ours that takes from the People a question properly left to them--with each decision that is unabashedly based not on law, but on the “reasoned judgment” [their words] of a bare majority of this Court--we move one step closer to being reminded of our impotence.
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61 comments :

  1. This post explains why Trump can do no wrong. Because it has now been established by the Supreme Court that they have Supreme Power. Mr. Trump is merely leveling the playing field.

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  2. Trump is not leveling the playing field is is filling it with mines

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  3. On one hand you could argue that the florist is a private business and has a right to choose his customers.
    On the other hand you could point out that "I will not serve Muslims" or "I will not serve Jews" would immediately be seen as odious and unacceptable so why, in a secular state, is "I will not serve Gays" acceptable?
    Further, I would point out that while the business is private it benefits from the services the state provides such as security in the form of policy, electricity, running water, roads, etc. so its privacy is not absolute.

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  4. Or you could acknowledge that the situation is different in that religion asserted certain beliefs and norms for thousands of years and those who accept those beliefs should be given some time of leeway in this matter.

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  5. Regardless of your eilu ve'eilu there, how can we, fundamentally, in a free society require a citizen commercially to service another in a role that citizen has freely chosen? This florist is not serving in the military, or some case of eminent domain. Under threat of criminal or civil sanction they now MUST package & sell their wares? That's authoritarian! Whatever happened to those signs, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." Anyone else remember those?

    The irony: The liberal defense of abortion rights runs parallel to the argument I just stated. They ask -- with potential murder at stake on the other side of the scale, mind you -- how can the State require a woman to cede freedom over her physical being in bringing to term a child she expressly does not want? If such freedom as thought is so sacred as to Trump all else, how can, by contrast, mere discrimination entirely offset our commercial & religious freedoms as private American citizens ("...pursuit of happiness" & 1st Amendment) ? Seems a basic contradiction, siding with freedom over feticide but against freedom over feeling discriminated against. Pure narcissism at play, IMH"O.

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  6. If the florist (or baker) were decorating or baking an anti LGBTQ pastor's wedding, (or say, ambassador Friedman's family), then the left (and the law, though not exactly, and it would never be enforced) would insist the pastor not be served.

    So much for equal rights.

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  7. I agree with that. He is setting himself up as the last line of defense against an endemic onslaught of terror from abroad. The tinder is dry. All it will take is one spark to enflame the passion in this country to bring about the lockdown of borders and give Mr. Trump the political capital to put draconian measures in place.

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  8. Well that's where the dividing line will probably be tested. It's one thing to say "My house of worship will have separate seating and deny parts in the services to women", another to say "My business which is open to the public will not serve women".
    The former is the religion in its place of practice, the other is the religion interacting with greater society.
    The test will come not when some secular nonJewish woman walks into the Lakewood Yeshivah and demands an aliyah because such a demand would be laughed off. It will come when a secular Jewish woman does it and insists to outsiders that her "Judaism" is just as legitimate as the Lakewood version so she is being discriminated against.
    And the first stirrings of it are already happening in Canada where the prime minister was criticised by secular groups for peaking at a mosque where there was separate seating. Are they coming for us?

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  9. I prefer Passaic friend's response. Yours is time limited and his is universal. It feels wrong entirely that we should at any point be forced to provide to a gay wedding, thereby going against our own belief system. So while Garnel Ironheart's question is a good question, the answer needs to be that it's ok to hold on to our beliefs, and Passaic friend's response takes care of that to a large extent. I'm looking for yet more.

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  10. Come to think of it, there's a basic difference. We find that if a Jew isn't mechallel Shabbos to save a goy, his excuse which aught to be acceptible is that we only are mecchallel Shabbos in order to keep Shabbos, mutav etc. We expect reasonable minded people to accept that logic. If a person is allowed to believe that gay marriage is wrong, he is also allowed to not service others in the process. But to discriminate against a race, just because of race, has no logic besides hate or prejudice. Sometimes prejudice is reasonable but it never is perfectly true. But the refusal to service gay marriage by a religious person is completely true for that person's values and rights.

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  11. you are presenting the Chofetz Chaim's point of view however Rav Moshe Feinstein says that is not the way people actually think and therefore you need to save the goy's life. Thus there is no expectations of "reasonable minded people to accept that logic"

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  12. except that he is not intelligently defending against the onslaught but in fact is encouraging it! Oh but you say that once it happens then Trump can become an absolute dictator claiming that extreme measures are needed to save society.

    Interesting scenario - I think you are on to something

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  13. Actually, much of the opposition to inter-racial marriages was based on the way people understood the Bible.
    From Wikipedia: In the United States, segregationists, including modern Christian Identity groups, have claimed that several passages in the Bible,for example the stories of Phinehas and of the so-called "curse of Ham," should be understood as referring to miscegenation and that certain verses expressly forbid it.

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  14. There is the issue of SSM, which I believe should be the right for individuals and organizations to endorse or reject. Then there is the issue of discriminating against people, which should not be allowed. The issue of whether an individual or organization should be forced to endorse a message they disagree with, like an SSM or a bake a cake celebrating one, should be left to the individual concerned, assuming they would serve the individual should they not ask them to specifically endorse a message they disagree with. Then there is a problem of stigmatizing individuals or organizations which do not agree with SSM, and their rights must also be protected.

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  15. I didn't mean to compare them exactly. I was just giving a broad comparison, to show that Chazal allowed us to behave in a logical way and said that there is no aiva when you do. So while that particular logic may not be well accepted, because when someone's life needs to be saved, goyim don't see the importance of Shabbos observance to be a sufficient factor, as they see saving a life as a much higher value, this case has a logic that should be acceptable. A person doesn't want to supply flowers? big deal! And they won't be without flowers, as they'll get it elsewhere. And a person has a religion to abide by, and his own sense of morality, for which he wants to forgo the profit. I think a person who wants to impose his way of life on a religious florist and force him to capitulate and supply flowers against his beliefs, is a rasha. He wants to force everyone to live like him, and take away their right to their lifestyle. How dare he?! But racial discrimination is not that way at all.

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  16. Interesting. But we know that The Torah doesn't say that. As long as the person is Jewish. He can be from another race and convert to Judaism and that's fine. But if he isn't Jewish, The Torah forbids it for practical reasons which anyone can understand - כי יסור את בנך מאחרי וגומר

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  17. I recall, Honesty, claiming somewhere that "conservatives" have values closer to Torah values! Here is what the conservative hero Milo has to say:

    "One Gay Brit Has Done More For Conservatism Than 30 Years of Establishment Conservatives"

    http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2017/02/19/milo-one-gay-brit-done-more-for-conservatism-than-30-years-establishment-conservatives/

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  18. The test also comes when a non tzius dressed person enters a Jewish store etc. Do we have to be subjected to that? Do we not have the right to the decorum of our choice in our stores and other facilities? Or must every decorum be subject to being totally altered by anyone who wants? They may not spray graffiti, or draw picture on the walls, but they may bring in the most unwanted live pictures which ruin the decorum more than any graffiti can.

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  19. He's not a conservative though.

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  20. I am not talking about the Torah. I am just noting that if you take the position that any religion-based denial of service is acceptable, that may have widespread unintended consequences.

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  21. I don't take that position. Please see my position. Not everything that comes under the guise of religion is a legitimate position, which you can expect others to allow.

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  22. This was (partially) legally tested in NY (Lee avenue, actually).

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  23. Again, whether or not you take that position is not the point. And what you deem a legitimate religious belief is not the standard for the entire United States. Once you accept discrimination based on religious beliefs, you are opening a very large can of worms.

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  24. So actually it all depends. On one hand, a sign on the front door that says "No shoes, no shirt, no service" is usually acceptable because it demands the same thing from all customers regardless of their backgrounds and is also considered a reasonable request to be made of patrons. A sign that says "All women customers: no tichel/sheitl, no long skirt, no service" would not be considered acceptable because you've gone beyond common sense and into something specific.
    And the real test comes when someone walks in barefoot and insists that his religion forbids footwear. Again, in Canada this was tested by people insisting on smoking medical marijuana on restaurant patios where the law otherwise banned all smoking. And the doobies won!

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  25. As AlbertF may be alluding to in his Comment -- I don't know -- there seems to be a general tug-of-war afoot right now for the rights to the label "conservative" -- Alt-right vs. the mainstream right. I.o.w., by the former McCain is seen as not a "real" conservative- get my meaning? and Milo would be seen as having one foot in & one foot out. This fight over labels gets confusing, as now a lot can be lost in semantics.

    See this long article (that I found on this blog, actually) on the evolution of the 'Alt-Right' and what Krauthammer has to say here, whom I regard as a stalwart, staple conservative.

    By contrast, the parallel tug-of-war over the Democratic Party that took place in this last election between Bernie liberals & the more centrist Establishment Democrats doesn't seem to have fought for who was "truly" liberal. Perhaps Fox succeeded in making it a bad word, LOL....

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  26. No. It depends whether those religious beliefs are unreasonably targeted against others on not. My following religious beliefs against sinful behaviors in my own life and and therefore against facilitating and beautifying and giving respect to others committing that sin, is a position that only out of sheer rishus and contempt can you complain against it. Not so if if the entire religious belief is to distance other people based on race. That religious belief is one which you can't reasonably expect other people to feel comfortable with. To bring my point home loud and clear, I will say this. If a religion says kill people because of race etc, it is quite reasonable for others to protest. And that is very different from a religion which says you shouldn't commit adultery, and if people protest that, it is unreasonable discrimination against religion. This is all so very simple that I think that someone who argues, needs his motives to be examined.

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  27. I know. I think it's discrimination against religion.

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  28. Definitely. On the other hand, it cuts the other way too. A woman in Israel who decides not to abide by the invisible bus mechitza need not be yelled at, manhandled, spit on, or even harrassed at all. That abusive behavior by religious folk is also plenty discriminatory and for it we ought to show zero tolerance.

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  29. I think this whole discrimination thing needs to be changed. If you discriminate against someone solely on the basis of race or color, that should be illegal, because it's nothing but unreasonable hate. But anyone should be allowed to make whatever rules he wants for his own business premises. They say when in Rome etc. It's basic mentchlichkeit. Why should someone be able to act in a way which isn't acceptable by the host? If they don't don't like the rules of that place they don't have to go there. Otherwise it's reverse discrimination. To make a rule that you can't have a specific decorum as you please in premises which are your own, is simply wrong.

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  30. You give me too much credit.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire

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  31. No, it's clashing discriminatory values.

    Note: that particular agency, despite its lofty title and self publicity, is actually a very political agency, with a very (leftist) agenda right now (deBlasio, and bloomburg, Giuliano probably too.). (And by agenda, I mean very pro LGBTQ. And anti established religion.)

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  32. I agree with that. 2 wrongs don't make a right. That's a general issue. How do you behave if someone doesn't behave exactly as they aught to. Do you get into a full blown dangerous rage? Do you publicly shame someone? אדם ניכר בכעסו

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  33. No. It's discrimination against religion. The opposing value doesn't rule in the other persons territory. That's completely unfair. All things being equal, everyone can make their own rules in their own premises. For one set of rules to take precedence everywhere, is discrimination

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  34. One person's reasonableness is another person's fanaticism. After all is said and done, what you are basically saying is: "My religious beliefs make sense to me, so those should be protected. Other religious beliefs don't make sense to me, so they do not deserve protection."

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  35. True. But the Alt-Right side, whose focus is on purity of the "native" culture as opposed to purity of moral virtues, presently has the upper-hand. Trump would not have won the primaries and the election on an overtly xenophobic and islamophobic platform, otherwise! And xenophobia and islamophobia have nothing to do with Torah values.

    Scape-goating people who want abortions and same-sex relationships does not equate to concern for moral virtues in society, when sexual immorality, immodesty in dress and the sexualisation of men/women is encouraged in public advertising for profit (capitalism?). This is simply "placing the wagon before the horse", and is hypocrisy.

    It is absurd that conservative muslim american woman and female muslim refugees dress more modestly than the Trumpian "conservative" spokeswomen and advocates! Also, conservative muslim americans and refugees would agree with traditional conservatives on issues of abortion and same-sex unioins and on sexual modesty, in general! Yet Trumpians oppose these groups, because the moral improvement in society, which is what America truly needs, is not their focus.

    How can any Torah true Jew defend such hypocrisy?!

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  36. Do you realize that your comment is totally self-contradictory? You can't say "anyone should be allowed to make whatever rules he wants for his own business premises" and at the same time say "if you discriminate against someone solely on the basis of race or color, that should be illegal."
    Which is it? Can the business owner make whatever rules he wants, or should certain rules be illegal?

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  37. According to the Torah, abortion is not murder but falls under the issur of bal tashchit. It is like a woman having a limb, e.g. an eye, taking out. Which means there is more room for leniency under Torah law, if the abortion is performed for a beneficial purpose.

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  38. But any ultimate defensibility is irrelevant here in my example. It's still an inconsistent position. IF they defend abortion as a "right", on any grounds involving abridgement of freedom, then a similar feeling of offense should bristle over them in cases of infringement to religious freedom. More like: Is a false sanctity at play.

    I'm reminded of Rambam to Avos 1:3, where he summarizes the argument of the earliest kofrim, noting that the argument they advanced against the Torah was not their true position but simply the most viable to offer their audience -- denying "just" the shebe'al peh when, really, they'd be more inclined to deny kol haTorah kullah, shebikhsav too. Here too: Whether abortion rights are Torah defensible or not, no lofty ideals "truly" underlie, as justification, the affront on the part of those incensed; rather, they're saying "Keep your religion off of me, you meddling, self-righteous, Church-going freaks!", and thus religious freedoms being infringed upon register as a welcome development to them, even, on which to jump on board ("Discrimination!"), if they register even at all.

    Yet someone for whom freedom were truly sacred would recoil at this case of the chastened florist, even when that someone were herself secular. When ideals are held sacred, they are recognizable across the divide of such individual differences.

    So this is not a clash of ideals proper, but simply good, old-fashioned Kulturkampf--in the words of the Chief Justice quoted above, "an assault on the character of fair-minded people"--i.e., on their character (ad hominem ), not on the substance of their claim (ad rem).

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  39. Are you serious?

    They can make rules as long as those rules are not out of sheer hate. If a person comes to my store and conforms with my rules but he happens to have a darker skin than I do, then if I discriminate against him, it isn't reasonable, but it's just unreasonable hatred.

    I think it's correct for the government to make rules against hate, but not legislate about lifestyles which are legitimate choices or personal choices not out of hate but out of a choice lifestyle.

    Is that clear enough?

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  40. I forgot that you are the one who believes that words have no meanings, and that there is no truth but everything is subjective. 'Man' and 'woman' have no meaning. Anyone is whatever he wants to think of himself as.

    So then we have no basis to decide what is reasonable and what isn't. It's whatever anyone wants, and no opinion or position is more legitimate than another. If someone wants to behead people for a particular reason, we have to validate that, just as much as we should validate the idea of giving charity.

    So then if someone feels uncomfortable with someone else and wants to distance that person for no reason other than the fact that person's skin is dark, that isn't any less legitimate than the person who wants to distance someone because that person is actively disturbing and disrupting. There is no difference, because it's all subjective.

    But the truth is that if someone wants to distance a person for no reason other than the fact that person's skin is dark, he has bad middos and needs to correct himself and the government would do well t legislate against it, but if a person is actively disturbing and disrupting, with no regard to the rules of the place, then that person ha bad middos, and the owner should have the right to distance that person to prevent the damage that the person is inflicting.

    Yehoshua, you are unfortunately very fardrayt.

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  41. You are totally missing the point. In the secular world, being gay is viewed neither as a "lifestyle choice" or as something disturbing. The reason why you think otherwise is because of your religious beliefs. Your distinction between unreasonable hatred based on race and animus toward gay people because of what they do does not hold much water in the secular world. So if we are talking about what the law of the land in the U.S. should be, I still do not understand how you would justify a law that regards denial of service to black people as illegal, but regards denial of service to gay people as up to the business owner. Clear enough?

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  42. Obviously a business owner can make rules of conduct for what goes on within his establishment. "Shirt and shoes required" is totally fine, and I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The issue at hand, though, is denial of service to people not for the way they are acting in the store, but for the way they act out of it. In what way, pray tell, are gay people "actively disturbing or disrupting"?

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  43. No. They are being asked to supply flowers for the very event that defies their religious beliefs. Why should a person who is against such a marriage be forced have to beautify it, which is against their religious principals.

    It's not the same as holding a grudge for someone who on a different occasion acted in a way unacceptable to the florist, but now the job is a regular birthday party event which doesn't go against his principals.

    (Just for the record, I'm saying that a grudge would always be wrong. There are instances that it would be right, but I would rather not complicate things at the moment. What I'm saying here is simple and straight forward.)

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  44. No, quite convoluted!

    I am not advocating discriminating against 'gay people' but against gay activity. I don't care what you 'are,' but you can't 'do that' here, because those are the rules here. If someone is gay, but comes to my store to buy a pizza, I should sell them the pizza, because otherwise it would be discrimination. But If they want to present gay activity of sorts in my store, I have the right not to allow him to do that, because it's disruptive behavior, by the standard of my establishment.

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  45. I really have no idea what you are talking about. No one is talking about "gay activity," or sexual activity of any sort, in a private business establishment.

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  46. Once again, you would then need to say the same about a person who refused to supply flowers for an interracial marriage on religious grounds. That is, unless you want the government getting involved in deciding what religious practices/beliefs are acceptable and which are not.

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  47. By the way, I erred. The view on abortion I presented is related to Rashi. The Rambam is more stringent and the abortion of a fetus from 40 days on is considered "shedding blood". Only if the mother's life is at risk is abortion permitted according to the Rambam. i.e. the fetus is considered a rodef. Once the babies head emerges then its one life vs another - it is forbidding and whatever hashem wills will be.

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  48. Correct. If the marriage goes against my religion, then I don't have to have any part of facilitating the marriage. To force me to do so would be discriminating against my rights to my beliefs and lifestyle. If a Jewish man Ch'v is marrying a goyta, then I do not have to supply the flowers, because he is committing an act that I am entitled to be against, so I don't have to give any support to that act.

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  49. We are talking about someone coming to my pizza shop dressed in a way which is unacceptable in my establishment. So I say to him, "Come back after you are properly dressed, or don't come at all."

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  50. If you want to have that rule, that is fine.As I noted earlier, "shirts and shoes required" is totally acceptable. But that doesn't have much to do with the topic of this post.

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  51. Great. So I can also refuse to supply flowers to a Litvack who marries into a chassidish family, because of the cherem of the Vilna Gaon! :)

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  52. Interesting, thx.

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  53. if they are visibly gat (or fit a gay stereotype, whatever that is), they may affect his other customers and other sales.

    nevertheless, the law does not permit him to discriminate. at least in sales of goods. but catering an event is a service, not a sales of goods. big difference. (though if the baker declines to put up a figurine of two males, or two women, and its a straight pickup / take out order, no delivery, no other service, that is another story. and that was the kansas case.)

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  54. not according to US law (most / all states.)

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  55. uS law views public transportation differently.
    specfic laws about it.

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  56. We know that. That's what we're discussing. see entire conversation.

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  57. It seems you have lost track of the conversation. Please retrace the steps.

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  58. Not a matter of law. I didn't assert it was illegal, but that it was wrong. Derekh eretz qodma laTorah.

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  59. Nice one.

    Interesting, no, that Justice Alito perfectly foresaw your position? After all, what have you done against Harry's indignation but exploit the "compar[ison of] traditional marriage laws to laws that denied equal treatment for African-Americans and women" in order directly "to stamp out every vestige of dissent [from the new PC orthodoxy]" (first quotation in the Post above) ?

    If you have thoughts on the Justices' warnings above and reservations concerning the Majority Opinion, please feel free to share.

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  60. While as a rule I hesitate to post anything from Sean Hannity, this all-too-brief and otherwise chaotic FOX News segment (sorry that's all redundant -- I should just write "FOX News segment") is a relevant exchange illustrating the double-standard assaulting religious freedoms in America and how that culture war lightly hides behind lip service to "respect." Hannity actually does a good job calling out the liberal guest for dodging, although, of course, as always there's a bit of host-badgering in the act.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xntMLC2uHFU

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