update: An example of concerns which motivated my publishing of this post is an email I just received in response to this post. My unwillingness to accept that Donald Trump is the Saviour of America - is viewed as undermining my credibility that has been established by what I have published here - most of which is carefully documented. I find it unsettling that belief in Donald Trump as Saviour is the litmus test of a person's integrity and intellectual achievement. We are not talking about Donald Trump as a possibly competent president but as Saviour!
This response is similar to those of the true believer's in Satanic Abuse Rings and Killer Clowns. It is similar to those who have criticized me because I don't believe that a Gadol is beyond my ability to criticize - no matter how strong the proof I have. We are not talking about belief in Moshiach but an imperative to have a very strong belief in a mortal being.
A Warning
Rabbi, conflating the hope people have for Donald Trump, the President Elect of the United States with belief in ‘killer clowns, the tooth fairy Satanic abuse rings, and the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt heter’, damages your credibly vis-à-vis the Heter. With the Heter issue, you have been careful to distinguish between opinion and fact. As certain as you are that Trump is ‘insane’, unfit for the Presidency; your certitude is just an opinion. On a subtextual level, the above mentioned conflation relegates a Halachic certainly, i.e., the worthlessness of the Heter, to the realm of speculation.
This was reinforced by Harry's comment
Rabbi Eidensohn
I trusted your facts and agreed with your conclusion. But every once in while when I see your position about certain other things and your unwillingness to budge even in the face of anything of merit that might be presented, it makes me doubt you, and also my own judgement on the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt heter, because I based my judgement on facts which I know only through you.. After all, the Torah world still considers RSK ה'מרא דאתרא' בארה"ב. So maybe I'm mistaken. I now feel that way specifically because I don't anymore feel that I can rely on your judgement or even your facts.
How clever!
ReplyDeleteI want to believe in the tooth fairy, killer clowns, Satanic abuse rings, the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt heter and that Hillary would have been a good choice.
See, I'm clever too.
"that Donald Trump is the Saviour of America"
ReplyDeleteMaybe that's the problem. We don't need a Saviour. I certainly don't want or expect the President of the US to be my Saviour. I expect him to be a competent executive who manages the federal govt., respects the Constitution, and maintains our security.
Will Trump do that -- we will see.
who provided the art?
ReplyDeleteThis is getting old. From the sixties and onward, liberals have been using riots and destruction to get their way. This all came to a head, and stop, at the LA riots in 1992. At the LA riots after about 1,000,000,000 worth of destruction, 40+ people murdered in cold blood, thousands injured and maimed, life put on hold - America had finally had enough. America had finally had enough of riots. A new law was passed, and there were no more riots for 20 years, until Obama allowed them to happen.
ReplyDeletePresident Bush senior passed a law which allowed states to easily use their National Guard in order to stop riots. The National Guard restored peace to LA in a very short time. Soldiers are not community policemen; they are soldiers who are trained to incapacitate their attackers, even through lethal force. The National Guard killed eight people within their first day - or hours - in LA. The riots were over. Rioting in America was over. America had had enough, and was unwilling to tolerate riots anymore. The rioters knew that they will not be tolerated, nor will they be give time to "vent". They would stopped immediately, even through the National Guard. This last for twenty years.
Emboldened by having Obama occupy the presidency, the liberal left decided to reintroduce rioting, all with Obama's help. Obama began a nationwide assault against the police force, which came to a head in Ferguson, Missouri. First Obama attacked a police officer for arresting a black professor. Although he was forced to acknowledge that the officer was not wrong, he still used it to hammer away at local law enforcement. He kept on attacking the police force, and unleashed the justice department against them. Which is what allowed people to riot in Missouri.
Although the justice department was forced to admit that the cops were right in Ferguson, they were still branded as a racist entity and were almost disbanded by the Justice Department. But rioting in America had been reintroduced, all with the implicit support of the president and his politicized justice department.
The rioting that is going on now is a continuation of that. There's much reason to believe that this is a coordinated effort. Hillary Clinton did not concede the presidency the way every candidate does with a normal speech. She sent a public message to her supporters that she is still fighting; and a private phone call to concede the presidency. Her speech the next day was also a message to her supporters to keep on fighting. The rioters rightfully feel that they are doing what she would like them to do. She has not gone out to tell them to stop because she does support them.
The election of Trump was a rejection of the liberal rioting force. Please see this for what it is. Why are you not concerned with condemning the rioters? Why are you not concerned with condemning Hillary Clinton and the media who are justifying them?
I'm beginning to be concerned with your obsessiveness on this issue.
ReplyDeleteI find it humorous you place "Donald Trump is the Saviour of America" within the list.
ReplyDeletePlease explain with facts not conjecture.
And then there are some who want to believe in something even more preposterous; that Hillary is this selfless tzadeikes who has spent her life constantly seeking to help others. Uh huh.
ReplyDeleteI love his list of "first 100 days" goals:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/501451368/here-is-what-donald-trump-wants-to-do-in-his-first-100-days
Yes and do not forget to mention Obama's support of the 'Occupy Wall Street' movement.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Eidensohn
ReplyDeleteI have been in complete agreement with your position about the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt heter. I trusted your facts and agreed with your conclusion. But every once in while when I see your position about certain other things and your unwillingness to budge even in the face of anything of merit that might be presented, it makes me doubt you, and also my own judgement on the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt heter, because on based my judgement on facts which I know only through you.. After all, the Torah world still considers RSK ה'מרא דאתרא' בארה"ב. So maybe I'm mistaken. I now feel that way specifically because I don't anymore feel that I can rely on your judgement or even your facts.
RDE is not in America. He doesn't know clowns are not allowed anymore.
ReplyDeleteI am commenting after the (first) update.
ReplyDeleteI feel that you're being very unfair here. May I respectfully ask you to briefly write why you think people voted for Trump? What is it that they are expecting Trump to do, and how do they expect him to do it. Please do it in the same factual way that you have done in so many other cases.
I feel like you're not completely in tune with what the Trump voters intention. I feel that you are branding Trump supporters as people who see him as a messiah. They don't! The Trump voters - including the 44% of women voters - are well aware that he is not a perfect human being. I keep on asking about your political worldview, but cannot seem to get it. I wonder if you're ideologically inclined to the view that voters rejected this Tuesday. May this be coloring your perspective in some way?
I deeply respect you. But I also feel somewhat alienated in the way you covered this election.
You're right. I forgot that one. Was that the first set of rioting - although relatively tame - under Obama?
ReplyDeleteyou clearly on not paying attention to what I wrote. I am not criticizing the view that Trump might turn out to be a reasonable president. I am not criticizing people who voted for Trump. But I am concerned with those who view him as a Saviour - and there clearly are such people.
ReplyDeleteYou clearly are assuming that there is such a thing as Trump voters intention i.e., that it is a monolithic entity. It isn't . Thus your statement is inaccurate describing what I feel.
No I am not a leftist, no I don't like what Obama has done. No I don't agree with Clinton's views.
In sum, you - despite your normally cogent and perceptive comments - are having serious trouble in understanding criticism regarding Trump or his followers . The question is why?
In response to the update. This lacks integrity. Now your attacking defense is to say that we think he's like a Messiah. Please! Please see My comment on the thread 'Absorbing the Impossible by Maureen Dowd' where I said ' Trump is not a meshuginer, but just a crude simple american who is basically tocho kebaro'. And so many comments of mine and of others. So you put absurd words into our mouths that we didn't mean and certainly didn't say and then you present your entire thesis on the basis of disputing those words. This is demagoguery. Dishonest discourse. Additionally, this isn't the first time I accused you of not being able to admit to someone else's point of view no matter what, so to say that only this Trump issue has caused me to question your judgement is simply not true. In fact I have lately, meaning for the past several months, stopped speaking about the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt heter the way I did in the past, because I no longer feel the confidence to rely on what you have said here. I think you you have lots of maalos and wisdom, but I seem to find that you lack the integrity to hear other opinions and consider them with an open mind.
ReplyDeleteYou have presented your reasoning about your choice in the election that Hillary is respectable and trump is crazy. It is to that which I disagree. I mean both points
ReplyDeleteSore loser.
ReplyDeleteYou got it. He doesn't budge. He's maniacally stubborn. Comes from having a brain that is shut off.
ReplyDeleteI think the whole country should make a Seudos Hodaah that Hashem spared us from her.
ReplyDeletethat is not the issue here
ReplyDeleteyou seem to be insisting that all Trump followers believe he is the Saviour. Din't day that and didn't mean that. I am referring only to those who in fact think he is the Saviour and they are not an insignificant number
ReplyDeleteIn short you have a problem with me because I don't agree with you?!
http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=2a91b54e856e0e4ee78b585d2&id=8d969e58ba&e=0c01d2fd43 - while Rabbi Sacks hopes for a political saviour it is someone who understands the politics of hope rather than just capitalizing on the politics of anger. I hope that Trump's advisors will help him make a turn-a-round
ReplyDeleteNo. I have a problem because I keep on being frustrated that you are not even considering what I and those who agree with me are saying. I feel that you are twisting my words, and twisting logical arguments as I feel now too about this post that you are doing so, and as I have felt about our discussions in the past. I have had many discourses and disagreements with people and I sometimes feel that it is with intellectual honesty and sometimes I feel that it isn't. With you I feel the latter. You might say I'm wrong, but I've had this feeling too many times for it to be totally unwarranted.
ReplyDeleteTHAT explains it. I'm a fool, too. I do act intelligently sometimes, and I am pleased to have been able to be able to contribute to this blog over the years, an accomplishment I highly value.
ReplyDeleteIn the final analysis, I have been a fool, and despite acquiring some wisdom, I remain unchanged.
I voted for a candidate that I could relate to.
if you have this feeling then I feel that this is not the place for you. It is not in your best interest to waste your time dealing with a person you feel is being dishonest with issues and it isn't worth my time to try and answer you anymore. Because no matter what I stay you still have feeling.
ReplyDeleteCut your losses and move on. As Rav Wolbe says - you need to trust your inner voice
Thanks Honesty, for the honest review. Spot on!
ReplyDeleteThank you Harry. You have expressed the same sentiments I feel thereby saving me the trouble of writing them.
ReplyDeleteI do give you credit thought for posting comments even such that criticize you.
ReplyDeleteWhat's funny is that the rioters are screaming about being afraid of violence from the Trump supporters.
ReplyDeleteHarry your issue is that you apparently do not understand the Hebrew documents and therefore are relying on my report of what they say. Consequently if you can't trust me regarding Trump you can't trust me regarding anything else for which you can't read the documents.
ReplyDeleteThe simply solution is to find someone else to read the documents. Almost everything I post is supported by evidence. You don't need me to be the agent of understanding the documents. There are also others commenting who agree with you on Trump and yet don't have any questions about what I say about other things because they can read the original documentation. You should reach out to them for help.
In sum, I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. Your problem is that you say you can't trust me. So either find an alternative access to the documentation or go some place else where you trust the person providing you with information
There you go twisting my words again and blatantly lying about my ability to understand Hebrew documents. Anyone who reads my comments knows, as you do, that I am quite capable of reading and understanding English and Hebrew.
ReplyDeleteI am not interested in arguing with you because I feel that you don't argue honestly. But I am here reading this blog in order to see and partake in the valuable discussions which you present here and in order to present my opinions to those who have an open enough mind to consider them.
You don't have to post the comment. I'll understand.
ReplyDeleteThank you Harry. You said exactly what I am thinking. In fact, I have for the most part stopped following this blog, because I cannot trust Rabbi Eidensohn's judgement anymore.
ReplyDeleteI am glad you have stopped reading my blog and I wish Harry would follow your example. If what I have said about the Kaminetsky's isn't obvious to you from reading the documentation that means either you don't understand the Hebrew or you have a significant reading comprehension issue. To say you can not trust my judgment about something that I have presented clear and decisive factual evidence clearly indicates that this blog is not for you and it has nothing to do with your trusting my judgment. I have not asked to to trust my judgment - just read the documents and make up your own mind.
ReplyDeleteNonsense!
ReplyDeleteImagine if a dayan at a din Torah would be presented clear evidence from one party with many documents showing that he is right. Would it be appropriate for the dayan to come to a conclusion without having the other party present what they want to present?
And why would you want me to stop reading your blog? After all, people with a true desire to come to the truth invite people who challenge them.
you should pay attention to what you write. You have stated that you don't trust what I said. So why read it?
ReplyDeleteשח מט!
ReplyDeleteYour reply - essentially "get lost" - proves my point. A parting question - What is the purpose of this blog?
ReplyDelete