The question is what changes will result from this incident? Ironically one of the consequences is to damage the supporters of women to receive a Get on demand. By putting the spotlight on a particular woman - the manner that she gets out of marriage now becomes a public obsession. With this type of attention - any irregularities or halachic uncertainties - brand her and her children forever. In the past the details of divorce were generally not public knowledge - by the wishes of all parties concerned. Now women publish detailed accounts of all events.
I just received the following letter today expressing this problem.
Dear Rabbi,
I have followed your work for several years and respect you greatly. I am by no means an expert on Gittin. (I sat on a beis din once and that was because the other dayanim needed a body...) Over Shabbos, I was discussing the Epstein matter with another of your followers and felt the impetus to write.Having perused the Epstein issue, I have one subtle, but quite important observation: She who lives by the sword dies by the sword. Whether or not you agree with ORA or any of these organizations that publicize agunah issues (or whatever their opposition claims), it is clear that these organizations have added a new dimension to the modern day agunah. Once an Epstein-type case becomes public, we all look to see how it is resolved. I dare say that the Epstein case isn't the first time when a rov has nullified kedushin- this is just the first time that we have heard and cared about it.
This leads to two results: First, women who otherwise publicize their agunah issues may be hesitant to air their issues to the community for fear of what happens if their ploy fails. Second, women who have gone public may be stuck in a catch 22. Regardless of whether or not you may consider Rabbi Greenblatt's actions halachically valid, I highly doubt that he did this without backing of those with seemingly broad shoulders.
Again, I am not passing judgment on any of the parties involved in the Epstein case, I am merely bringing an important issue- one that may eventually overshadow all of what your blog has focused upon- to light for discussion
You write: "It is acknowledged that there was no basis for a psak of kiddushei ta'os - and that by not received a Get before remarriage that she is committing adultery and damaged the status of her future children."
ReplyDeleteAcknowledged by who? Are there any rabbinim who, to date, have said anything publicly about this issue?
there are major rabbis who have signed a letter of protest against this heter - to be released in the near future
ReplyDeleteThen I would suggest holding off on the categorical pronouncements until that letter is available.
ReplyDeleteI strongly disagree with your advice. It doesn't take a talmudic or halachic genius to understand the nonsense involved in this heter.
ReplyDeleteNot aware of that there is any limitation that only major rabbi are allowed to protest wrong doing.
I agree with you %100 that there does not seem to be any basis for the heter. My point is that the phrase "it is acknowledged that etc." makes it sound like there has been some sort of authoritative statement to that effect, not just the understanding of those following this blog.
ReplyDeletethere has been - but it hasn't been released yet.
ReplyDeleteOne of the interesting facts is that many rabbis will not sign a protest or publicly comment on something like this unless there is pressure from the masses.
It has also surprised me that some major rabbis have not been aware that Tamar had gotten married without a Get - until they read about it from this blog or were told about it by readers
If a statement is made in the forest and nobody hears it, is it a statement?
ReplyDeleteBy all means, keep up the pressure. But the fact is that as of now, no posek has said anything about it., pretty much in either direction.
" But the fact is that as of now, no posek has said anything about it., pretty much in either direction."
ReplyDeleteI have seen the written statements of major rabbis condemning this heter and saying that Tamar is still married to Aharon Feldman. So at this point you will just have to trust me
Okay. But I would rather see the statement. In the Meisels case, we were told (not just on this blog) of various statements/pesakim that will be released soon, and we are still waiting. BTW, isn't his name "Friedman"?
ReplyDeleteThe very fact that a woman is held hostage by religion is akin to being held against her will. You people live in the U.S. - this poor woman has to wait for what is essentially permission from a panel of non-magistrates so she can remarry even though she has a civil divorce and you brand her an adulteress? What is this - 18th century Russia? I've clearly stumbled onto the wrong blog but as a modern educated woman and yes a shiksa at that with many Jewish friends - I couldn't resist posting. Your community has many bigger problems than concerning themselves with the private affairs of one individual - endemic poverty and corruption, sub-standard education, alienation of your youth, rampant elder sex abuse to name but a few.
ReplyDeleteDo you always shoot first and than find out what is going on afterwards?
ReplyDeleteYes the world has greater problems that people clinging to quaint rituals thousands of years old and thinking that they were G-d given. It is imperative that we all become secular members of society and enjoy the rich family life that only people like you enjoy. It is truly amazing that your society thinks that it has less child abuse than religous society , greater family happiness, greater sense of fulfilment, lest drug addiction, adultery rape etc.
You obviously think you come from a superior and more advanced society which has solved the problem of war, social injustice opression of women and racial discriination.
Thank you for taking from your busy schedule to come and preach to us primitive natives about the superior of your highly educated outlook and values.
Perhaps one day you will take the trouble of actually investigating the truth instead of feeling self-righteous and preaching from your soapbox.
I published many statements and documents concerning the Meisels case Including the conclusions of the joint beis of the IBD and the Chicago Beis Din.
ReplyDeleteNot sure what you think was supposed to be published but wasnt'.
You will be seeing the public statement in the near future .
thanks for the correction
From your side, primarily the section of the pesak that discusses the analysis of the behavior of the Peninim staff, referenced by Rabbi Shafran in one of the released documents. You wrote about this: "Rav Shafran discusses it in detail in his minority view. I hope to be able to expand on this issue - but now is not the time - but it is important."
ReplyDeleteFrom others, various rebuttals supposedly forthcoming from the CBD.
All R' A.F needs to do is, go to three separate Therapists undergoing a psychiatric exam and receive a clean bill of health. That will put an undisputed rest to all these unfounded claims of mekach taus vehafkaot Kidushin lemafrea, FREE FREE alleged heteirim of - vehitir lonu es hanesuos le'eishes ish lashuk - al yedei Chupah veKidushin. Either, teitse mize umize after negotiating a settlement of custody with compensation, or R' A.F. can go ahead and fetch a Heter Meah Rabbonim. MS. TFF can pick up her Get by the Bet Din after fulfilling his conditions. In the mean time R' A.F. is FREE FREE 180' - venahofch hu. Thusly, declaring somebody insane retroactively by remote control, can be annulled with a breeze.
ReplyDeleteLo yeosse ken bimkomenu,
plan A) if you don't do it my way by giving up custody, we will beat the daylights out of you through the malachei chabolo, we will shame you in public, we will demonstrate in front of your house, harass you in Shul, in front of your work place until you lose your bread and butter lekayem ma shene'emar 'veyored lechayov', follow you wherever you go 'IN YOUR FACE' making your life miserable as per Hilchos ORA, ad sheyomar Rotse Ani forcing a Get meusse.
When all else failed we implement
Plan B) You then go HIGHWAY. With no questions asked, we hire a Therapist that will declare you - INSANE INSANE - in absentia, we will hire 'a Yohr eidus' = "seek out witnesses for hire for whatever you want us to say" confirming your insanity, neither you, nor anyone else will have the privilege to know who these hired guns are, we will go undercover shopping for a fixed outcome B.D. to engage three unknown Quark rabbanim to sign a pre-drafted Psak - that is the - you cannot refuse kind, somewhere in a hidden Boiler room around Mill Basin with dubious addresses, concoct a hopping Kangaroo Court in midflight kemigdal haporeach beavir - 'Tloso kechad havina, Hayom ka'an umochor beBahn', procuring a unanimous vote of Mekach Taut, thereby, mafkia the Kidushin leAchoirov as beteilin umvutolin, the HoRav Baal Tokea second emotions by being Makri - FREE FREE - as in 'Ukrosem Dror' veyaaviru tekioh gedoilo Ba'arets.
Not so fast my friend
To give a different response: No one is being held hostage by religion. By U.S. law, the woman is certainly free to remarry, and nobody disputes that. The issue here is that Tamar not only wants to get married, but she wants to do so with halakhic (Jewish law) authorization. The issue being discussed here is whether or not such an authorization is possible under halakha, as understood by its authorities, practitioners, and adherents.
ReplyDeleteAs to your point about the larger issues, I don't think that you believe that there can be no addressing of "minor" problems (even if one were to regard this as minor) before solving all the major ones. Concerning sex abuse in particular, as a newcomer to this blog you are probably not aware that in the Torah-observant world, this blog is perhaps the most out spoken on the issue of clergy sex abuse in the Orthodox community. There are even links to the moderators books on the subject in the sidebar.
you are correct - it was decided that too much privatei information existed concerning innocent and that the issue had been resolved by other means.
ReplyDeleteThe CBD's position was rendered largely irrelevant by their joining the joint beis din. Again it was decided thought costs benefit analysis that the issue had been resolved and that no more information needed to be release.
In sum, the full discussion originally planned was not carried by the decision of the dayanim involved. At the present the release is planned in the near future - I can not promise that something won't come up and change that.
Heidi
ReplyDeleteFirst I would like to welcome you to this blog. No need to apologize for writing here.
The fundemental issue that most people on this blog are concrened is not Tamar but the way the matter was handled. Some believe that this can have wider negative effective on our basic values.
I didn't like that phrase shiksa. Personally I never used it and so most or all people that I know.
Did anyone forward this matter to the Bedatz in Yerusholayim? Or to Rabbi Kanieveski in Bene Berak. The bedatz have been quite vocal in the past regarding gittin in America and Rabbi Kanievski has written numerous letters regarding various disputes around the world
ReplyDeleteYehoshua,
ReplyDeleteI spoke to the major rabbi who dealt for years with this case, and he is the only one who knows everything about it. He signed a letter that will hopefully be released in the coming weeks, but I spoke to him personally and asked him this: Is there any possible reason for negating the marriage without a GET? And if Tamir has children, are they mamzerim? He replied, "They are mamzerim, and there is no possible issue that could result in negating the GET."
On my blog torahhalacha.blogspot.com I quote open lines in the Shulchan Aruch that even if a marriage could be negated, Tamir Epstein could not have her marriage negated.
Heidi,
ReplyDeleteIf you are not Jewish and are a modern lady free to invent or not invent religion, you have a point. Why invent a religion to oppress women? But when we Orthodox Jews know that there is a G-d, and that is why we Jews are still alive and living in Israel, which is pure miracle, after thousands of years of slaughter and hate, and we know that Moses received the Law from G-d, then we have to decide if G-d knew what He was doing, and we accept Him.
My wife and my daughters are very happy living their lives as Orthodox Jews, and even the vast majority of women who have problems and believe in G-d are willing to give Him the nod that He is the boss, not you. I hope you are not offended.
Actually, it so seems she also executed her modern day rights to be a shiksa like you, no hostage, no nothing. may G-d help you to find your way back to your usual 21 Century blogs. With friends like you, who needs enemies?
ReplyDeleteI spoke to Rabbi Gavriel Stern that somebody named as a signer on the permission for Tamir to remarry and he vehemently rejected it. I sent in his remarks in Hebrew to my brother. I know people who are seeking out a name of people who signed for her to remarry. So far, the only thing that makes sense is that Rabbi Greenblatt relied on Rabbi Kaminetsky and his son. And I know Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky and also somebody who got a Kesubo from him and it was invalid. He does not know the laws of Gittin, and he once asked me where in the laws of Gittin does it say about writing names. If he doesn't know that, he is surely not a Gadol and he surely has no right to tell Tamir to remarry without a GET.
ReplyDeleteWe know a few other rabbis who have in the past indicated that they would annul a marriage, but none of them are "Gedolim" and Rabbi Greenblatt told me that he did what he did because Gedolim wanted it done. I doubt if any Gedolim signed it, because the big names that I spoke to all were furious about it.
Rabbi Mordechai Willig was so angry that he almost sputtered when he talked about it. Nobody believes that any Gadol who knows Gittin laws signed the paper, and the Kaminetskies I know are not experts in Gittin. I talk about Gittin because I have the warm backing of Reb Moshe Feinstein and Reb Yosef Shalom Elyashev and Reb Shmuel HaLevi Wosner and other Gedolei HaDor. I did my shimusht homework for many years, learning under Reb Aharon Kotler and every Gadol I could meet. But today, who knows the laws of Gittin? A lot of them are making it up as they go along, and the result will be many questionable children in the coming generation.
I know that these people are concerned about women who need a GET. But why are they not concerned about babies born mamzerim? After all, some of them will be ladies.
Did the CBD (abtually a one man operation) ever retract that statement that several (i think they said dozens) of young women cannot marry cohanim (which is factually incorrect, but done for dramatic effect.)?
ReplyDeleteThe Bedatz is well aware of the situation
ReplyDeleteOnce the joint beis din hearing happened, and it became clear that there were no such cases at all (let alone dozens), the rug was pulled out from under their falsehoods. They admitted the truth without making reference to their earlier lies.
ReplyDeleteYour society has issues without getting involved in other societies' issues. Why do you bother posting? Is a sense of moral superiority so important to you that you ignore your own hypocrisy.
ReplyDeleteIn the psak that was issued by the Joint BD which was signed by all three members of the CBD they stated specifically that there was no evidence of anything of the sort, nor were there even allegations of that sort. They mentioned that all the allegations were from two or three [I don't have it in front of me at this moment] young ladies and they did not allege anything remotely resembling an act that would change a woman's status.
ReplyDeleteIn effect, without saying "We lied", by signing onto this document, they admitted as much.
Again, until your "major rabbi" is willing to go on the record, it is nothing more than hearsay and rumors.
ReplyDeleteyehoshua I have seen his written and signed statement - it is not hearsay and rumors
ReplyDeleteHearsay is "unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge."
ReplyDeleteAs long as "he" has no name, and your readers are not seeing it for themselves, then for us, it is hearsay.
Yehoshua - it is not "nothing more than hearsay and rumors"
ReplyDeleteFor me it is not hearsay and for you it is not a rumor
Well, wake us up when you have an actual living, breathing rabbi willing to take a public position on this.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I was referring to as well.
ReplyDeletein halacha, is there such a thing as jurisdiction? i.e. do Gedolim in Israel have jurisdiction in the USA, where they have their own Torah leaders? And moreover, what are the other Aguda Gedolim in the USA saying about this?
ReplyDeleteYehoshua - you mean wake you up - other people believe what I say
ReplyDeleteJurisdiction?! what are you talking about? The only thing that matters is whether or not Tamar is married. another thing that matters is whether we are witnessing a new trend that undermines halacha like we have never seen before.
ReplyDeleteIt happens to be that I also believe you that there are rabbonim who are upset about this and provisionally have agreed to sign a letter, but are probably taking their time working up the courage to go public. The issue is that as a matter of public policy in the frum community, until that occurs, the internet protests are of very limited utility.
ReplyDeleteYou are right, but it is still a valid question. If the gedolim in the USA support RSK, then this becomes a a bigger problem overall. If they oppose him, it is also a problem, but only for him (and Epstein).
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect Rabbi - I take your remarks on point - however I am not painting all Orthodox Jews with one tarred brush. Yes I do understand that the issue being disputed here is not whether Ms Epstein is legally divorced rather the fact she is still bound to her husband religiously and the undeniable FACT that she as a woman cannot secure a get under her own volition. Yes I also realise that this a tradition or practice which is thousands of years old but that doesn't make it right. Those who then have the audacity to brand her an adulteress are not acting in a G-dly way at all if one approaches it from that perspective. No I am not Jewish or even particularly religious at that but that makes me no less than a mensch in G-d's eyes. Having reread the posts here and the subsequent posts, I do understand now that this discussion is in the main more about the halaachic aspects of the issue and I would be the first to admit I'm not educated in these types of matters at all. My basic understanding of the get process is simply that a man cannot deny it to his wife - in this instance it is being withheld simply due to child custody and access issues to punish the mother and if so then the matter needs to be determined again by the secular court system. As for the other gentle men's comment about me labelling myself a shiksa - I could have said goy or gentile I suppose but there was no offence intended. I do still believe the ultra Orthodox community has many significant societal challenges but I agree that too that mainstream secular society is riddled with them as well. My final thoughts are that although I disagree with many of the remarks posted here, I am extremely impressed with the intelligent and articulate nature of the contributors.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your concerns and your intellectual integrity. However the bottom line is that you are looking at it without knowing and understanding some of the key issues.
ReplyDeleteYes it is a tragedy if a woman is being denied a Get for the wrong reason. It is also a tragedy if a family is broken up simply because the wife feels that she e can do better - but could be happily married if she had no choice.
No the Get is not being withheld to punish the wife. There are legitimate issues to negotiate which the husband has agreed to negotiate - but which the wife refused to negotiate.
In fact the husband offered to rent an apartment in their neighborhood for her for a year - if they didn't reconcile during that time he said he would give her the Get - she refused.
Life requires compromise and negotiations - she seems to feel she doesn't need to compromise or negotiate. Go so far as to pay 60k to a Rabbi to "take care of her husband" - shortly after he was attacked by a number of men.
Bottom line - this story is a tragedy for all concerned.
Yes I've read the history behind the story - I completely agree that sending thugs around to assault the husband is completely unconscionable and should be punished severely under secular law. However if she doesn't want to continue in the marriage, she shouldn't be forced to. It has been several years since the couple separated and were granted a secular divorce - it is abundantly obvious that a reconciliation is not going to happen so Mr. Friedman needs to let go and try and make the best life for himself and his child that he can. I do understand that parental alienation is a terrible set of circumstances and children clearly need both parents in their lives because no one will love them more than mum and dad. Very sad for the child more than anyone else - perhaps the focus needs to be on reconciling the parents to a more equitable set of parenting arrangements. Thank you for your kind response - G-d bless.
ReplyDeleteThere IS Jurisdiction and you cannot step into anothers Golil. What we are talking about is a whole other program and a different ball game. Bemakom sheyesh chilul hashem ein cholkin kavod larav, and we are talking about megaleh ponim batorah shelo kehalacha R'L'. Where are the gedolim wanting to support, where are the clowns, no one wants to take credit, ke'ein vatispoem rucho.
ReplyDeleteIf the Rabbi wrote the letter already then why do we have to wait for it to be released? release it NOW! This will then quiet all the scoffers. We need to see all those who protest the actions of Rabbis kaminetzky and Greenblatt to speak up.
ReplyDeleteAn added benefit is the following. If a truly major posek condemns Tamar then maybe she'll have the good sense to leave her 2nd husband before it's too late and a mamzer is born.
1- Who is R. Gavriel Stern? What is his position?
ReplyDelete2- Why doesn't R. Willig publish a letter. At this point I'd rather see it from him instead of relying on someone else.
Yehoshua,
ReplyDeleteMy brother was mailed the letter with its present prominent signatories. But until more rabbis sign the letter won't be released.
How confident are you that more well known rabbis will sign?
ReplyDelete