Guest post by Foncused [I have no idea whether this proposal makes sense legally or whether it would be helpful. In addition while Foncused is challenging the Weiss's - I would say that the Dodelson's should have the same challenge]
It seems that there is a disputation over what exactly the Weiss
family, specifically Avrohom Meir, Yosaif Asher & Yisroel, are truly
demanding in order to give Gital a Get. Commenters on this site, while
denying any connection to the Weiss family, seem to be fairly sure what
is, & isn't true regarding those demands (See: whether Weiss is
asking for $350,000, nothing, money for expenses including paying
Yisroel Weiss or only legal fees that their attorney billed).
The
Dodelson family & friends say that they are desperate enough to
bargain with the Weiss's, but say that they keep changing their demands
whenever something is conceded. They don't feel like they have been
bargaining in good faith. Outside third parties (I will not name names)
have confirmed that this has been true in the past - but at this point,
that's water under the bridge. Anonymous Weiss supporters factually say
that they are only demanding minor things, but Dodelson disputes this
account, & say Weiss is always asking for more. I have, however,
came up with a proposal, that can solve this issue once and for all- as
it will expose who exactly is the party that is being unreasonable.
Let's
call a spade a spade here. Many of you Weiss affiliated commenters
think that I am somehow related to the Dodelson's or the Kotlers. This
is untrue. But what is clear to anyone who reads this blog is that the
Weiss family reads it carefully- if not participates in the comments.
(Who else would be able to get in to the minutiae about the back and
forth if they weren't intimately involved?)
So I'd like to
issue a challenge to the greater Weiss/Feinstein mishpacha- including R
Dovid HaKoton Ben R Reuven, who has submitted letters to this site in
the past.
If the Weiss family would send via
their lawyer a signed consent form detailing what Dodelson needs to give
up in order to get the get (acc to "Truth" earlier it is only being
allowed to go to Staten Island, 12PM on Fridays in the summer months,
& Dodelson signing an agreement to cease "bashmutzing" him) and post
it on this blog, we will know that Dodelson is being Meagen herself,
because all she needs to do is sign his paper to get him to sign his.
However,
If Weiss declines to do this, we can be pretty sure that that is not
all that he is asking for, & he is lying to us as readers of DT.
There
is no downside to Weiss pursuing the strategy I am proposing- unless he
doesn't want people to know what he really is asking for.
I
look forward to all the comments by Weiss/Weiss supporters saying how
dumb this idea is & he has no chiyuv to do it. It will reenforce my
suspicion that he has no interest in resolving this, & does not want
to be meShabed himself to anything.
noone said thats all he is asking for,those are the things that the dodelsons dont agree to they agree to everything else,if they would agree to those three things she would b divorced
ReplyDeleteand noone is saying its stupid,but i have a better idea let dodelsons and weisses both write what they want online for all of us to see so that neither one can back out
ReplyDeleteif the dodesons wont do that it will only reinforce my suspicion that they done want to be meshabed themselves.........
ReplyDeleteSmart take. Dodelson has a website where she makes clear what she wants. You might be too dumb to comprehend what it says, so I'll make it clear: she wants a get.
DeleteShe's not entitled to a Get.
DeleteThank you for summarizing the entirety of the Weiss position in 6 words.
DeleteIt would be more helpful if you'd actually try to end this thing than to fan the flames.
Do you think Weiss is better off being right, or being in a better position? If he has a reasonable demand, & he states it, he'd end up being happy, because Dodelson would have to accept.
But you'd rather he be right.
i am not a weiss or dodelson supporter the things that together they have caused cant be undone both to their families and to our accepted gedolim on both sides
ReplyDeletewhy are you not posting my comments?!
ReplyDeleteThe Weiss', unlike the Dodelsons, have made it a particular point NOT to debate this personal issue in the street and in the media.
ReplyDeleteThis is a silly argument. YAW has given interviews to the SIA, & the Weiss family has distributed papers (family statement) posted internal communication between attorneys (arbitration agreement) letters from mediators with footnotes from R Dovid Shlita, & rambling letters from Dovid Ben R Reuven.
DeleteThere's no reason for them not to do this short of not wanting the world to see the truth about what they're asking for.
Fofucsed: The Weiss family only did that AFTER the Dodelsons went on a public media rampage (causing an extreme Chillul Hashem). The Weiss family felt a need to respond to the false statements the Dodelsons made to the media and public. The Weisses never chose to go public. The Dodelsons did.
DeleteOk, let's say I agree that you are right. (I don't)
DeleteNow that the Dodelsons went public first, & the Weiss family feels that they are then allowed to go public as well, why not do this now as a way to end it once and for all?
If they propose something reasonable, & provide the proof that that is all they want, Dodelsons supporters will abandon them in droves. If they don't want to do it, it only serves to reinforce the Dodelson argument that they aren't being honest about what they are really asking for.
Again, the Weisses never chose to go public. Did you read the SIA? All it basically says is that they don't want to go public with a private matter. They released documentation that essentially would be public anyway... R' Dovid Bainish's letter was not from Weiss, it was from him to the public.The Weisses have every right to request privacy!!!!
DeleteI don't see any point in going back & forth with you on this, but I will respond to your attempt to deny that the Weiss family's unwillingness to do what I propose is Indicative of their not being fully honest with what they want for the last time.
DeleteWhen they felt it was to their benefit, the Weiss family hasn't had a problem releasing documentation (Greenwald letter, arbitration proposal from Dodelson lawyer, supporting document dump on this blog 1 & 1/2 years ago) or making passive aggressive statements to the public (Staten Island Advance & the Artscroll letter).
In all of those cases, if Weiss had chosen to be quiet, as you say they want to always do, they could have. None of those documents/statements would have happened/been released without them.
Therefore, their not doing what I am proposing is a choice- probably because they feel they will be embarrassed when everyone finds out what exactly they are holding out for- or that they don't even really know what they want.
Anyone who uses a blog to committ to anything is a fool and has a fool for a lawyer.
ReplyDeleteExplain why putting your "reasonable" demands for a get in a paper that means you are agreeable to these terms is foolish. Just calling it foolish is easy, but pointlessZ
DeleteIf it is true that the Weiss people are reading this blog then DT is deluding himself when he says that he doesn't think that this blog makes any difference to whether a Get is given or not.
ReplyDeleteJay,
ReplyDeleteLet me say this simply.
It is impossible to ask this of Dodelson because Dodelson isn't demanding anything of Weiss. She wants him to give a Get. If he were to give her a Get today she'd accept.
Nobody disputes this.
Weiss, and his allies on this page, consider this that she won't give in to every one of his demands to be her demanding something.
As you say yourself, nobody says these are the only things he wants, these are the only things he wants that she won't give in to. Think for once second- has it been presented that way on these pages? Has "truth"/Weiss said that in his many misleading & outright untrue posts?
And does it make sense that if the D family has, as you say, agreed to all the rest of his yet unspecified demands, that these are the ones she isn't amenable to? Doesn't that smell fishy?
Dodelson is demanding a Get. A husband has no obligation to give a Get. If the Dodelsons feels he IS obligated to give a Get, let them provide proof of their claim there is an obligation to give a Get.
DeleteMG,
DeleteNow you are getting into who is right and who is wrong. This post is not about that. This post is about bringing this to as speedy a conclusion as possible. If Weiss wants to end this, I have put a proposal forward that would end it quickly.
Unless, of course, as you are implying, Weiss's position is that she doesn't deserve a get so he will never grant one.
That argument bolsters the Dodelson claim that Weiss has no intention to give a get. Ever. Period.
It also directly contradicts "Truth"/Weiss claim that it's only 3 minor things that are holding up the agreement.
Dodelson could not have made the argument better than you have right now.
It would be very simple for her to receive the Get. All she has to do is sign a binding agreement that she won't try to get him out of his child's life or try to minimize his time with his child. But she doesn't want that! (the financial issue I believe was already agreed upon that she would pay)
DeleteSo let Weiss send a SIGNED consent order to Dodelson saying exactly how much money he wants, & that the current custody agreement will not be appealed at any later time.
DeleteI'm willing to bet dollars to donuts (Lekovod Chanukah) that Dodelson signs that in a second.
The problem is, that even according to "Truth"/Weiss, he won't be happy with that. He wants more. More that he is willing to admit to, & even more that he's not willing to admit to in public.
I think they should move to South Africa and let us sort it out!
ReplyDeleteWe have ONE Beis Din... so no shopping around for sympathetic dayanim!
Our law (and courts) will not grant a civil divorce if there is a religious impediment to remarriage. Our courts will also hold a get refuser in contempt and fine him R10000 per day (about $983,28 at this morning's exchange rate) until the get is given.
The best part is that he is free to pay the fine for as long as he does not want to give the get, so when he comes of his own volition (which usually happens quite quickly), he can't then say hew as forced and the get is not a good get!
That's our method for dealing with mamzerus on both the literal and figurative level!
PROUDLY JEWISH SOUTH AFRICAN
That non-Jewish law clearly makes a Get given under such pressure to be a Get Me'usa and any future children to be mamzeirim.
DeleteCool - what's the aguna count down there?
DeleteMG - They have Rabbis in South Africa to deal with the issue.
Yitz - there are rabbis anywhere that do things that cause mamzeirus.
DeleteYitz: To my knowledge, we have only had one in the past 10-15 years. The only reason the guy could hold out is because he ran away (to NY ironically!). The point is that the mere existence of this secular law is a serious deterrent to AMW type behaviour.
DeleteMG: down here we rely on bigger people then you and your cronies to decide what constitutes a Get Me'usa and what constitutes a mamzer.
The fact that we have ONE Beis Din with very competent and experienced dayanim (who are accepted by 99% of the community - there are always a few reshaim who feel that they are better than everyone else and work against achdus) and who are in continuous contact with gedolei yisroel proves this.
EVEN MORE PROUDLY JEWISH SOUTH AFRICAN!!!
Anonymous: Rav Eliashev is bigger than any of us or those you refer to. And Rav Eliashev paskened it is a Get Me'usa and future children produced from a remarriage after such a Get Me'usa are mamzeirim.
DeleteSounds great, except for the fact that monetary pressure also results in a get meusa.
ReplyDeleteTo the South African, you are absolutely clueless. The get is forced whether you like it or not and invalid. Fining someone is ones momon which results in the get being given involuntarily and will result in mamzeus.
ReplyDeleteThe south african bais din would be very upset at the bahavior of a woman who chooses to lstop her husband from proper access to his children and then runs to arko'oys to fight this case so cut it out. i know people from south africa.
are you also very proud of apartheid and the continuing poverty of the blacks there while you have your silly indabas?
Stan: See my comment above. I think its better for klal yisroel that we let competent poskim, like the ten who signed the kol koreh and presumably know something about what constitutes a get me'usa or not, decide these questions. You and your friends are entitled to your beliefs, but that does not make what you think halacha l'maaser for the rest of us.
DeleteI would rather be clueless then amoral.
I know people from NY and that's why I am surprised by your world-view, you should know better.
Even if our Beis Din would be upset by the behaviour you outline, they would never ever sanction get refusal as a legitimate means of redress.
By your comment about "Silly Indabas" you are no doubt referring to our annual initiative to be mechazek limmud ha torah by arranging for a variety of learning programs and getting people with very little exposure to Torah to experience the beauty and wisdom of Torah or our annual Shabbos initiative to expose those that do not YET keep Shabbos and to strengthen those who do.
You call that silly? That is truly perverse, but definitely in keeping with the character of someone who legitimises get refusal.
You should know that our community for decades was at the forefront of the fight to end apartheid and until today continues to work to improve the lot of all South Africans.
I do of course find it highly ironic that on the one hand you are bothered by injustices committed against people you have no connection to or for that matter knowledge of, but the injustice of a get refusal to a bas yisroel is no problem for you. In fact you seem to support the perpetrator!
PJSA
i think that DT is not helping the situation. the post article and other articles happened a few weeks ago. many people to not get those papers, magazines.
ReplyDeletebesides the way media works it would have quieted down.
because DT has it online every day and the frum read it so all people are talking about it. that is what kept this alive in the public eye. you keep saying that weiss is not going public but DT did it for them and that has kept it public with much loshon hara and assumptions by all the people who comment.
I think DT is a great asset- to the Dodelsons. It continually exposes the utter stupidity of the Weiss's taanas
DeleteGital Dodelson should not have lit the match that started this wildfire. Don't blame the people returning fire rather than sitting down and taking punches unanswered.
DeleteSo when the Weiss family has a fire they say was started by Dodelson, & they have a fire hose in one hand, & a flamethrower in the other, you say it's reasonable that they use the flamethrower.
DeleteI say it's smart if they use the fire hose.
They can end this now- just publicize what you want for a get, whether she deserves it or not is a side show. That's the fire hose.
But you think I shouldn't blame them for keeping the fire going, adding more fuel.
I have some basic questions, which from the comments i don't fully understand.
ReplyDeleteDT (and his brother Dovid, and Ben Torah and MG, among others) -- all are saying that a husband has no obligation to give a Get. I'm not talking about "Get on Demand" but even after a long time separation.
I understand that the halacha is that he gives her a Get.
But ... are you all saying that he can keep her chained for his entire life? With no obligation -- halachic or moral -- to divorce her? And that this is fine??
What of the concept of kedoshim t'hiiyu and acting as a naval b'reshus hatorah? Does that come into play? Do people think that Hashem smiles at this person's conduct and that her blood will not cry out for revenge at his hearing in olam haemes?
Why aren't you all concerned about his olam habba?!
Also, i don't understand the full concept of Get Meusa. How far do you take this concept? If i choose not to do business with a man because he is holding up a Get -- is that putting pressure on him which could effect a Get Meusa? If people in shul decide not to talk to him? etc etc. How far do you take it?
- Andrew
Andrew:
DeleteA wife whose husband does not wish to divorce her has the opportunity to continue living with him and being his wife.
Of course if he refuses to live with her then he must give her a Get whether he likes it or not. But if he desires to continue their marriage, barring extenuating circumstances her only options are to live together with him as husband and wife or go away and make herself an agunah-by-choice.
In such a circumstance he is completely correct and will get a full Olam HaBoah without losing anything in the Beis Din Shel Maala in the Olem HaEmes. If she tries to illegitimately pressure of force him into divorcing her, she will lose Olam HaBoah.
The right thing for her to do (again barring extenuating circumstances such as physical abuse) is to live together as husband and wife. Marriages are not disposable. Even if one sees greener pastures elsewhere. When she agreed to marry him she agreed to remain married to him and she gave up any right to later decide she no longer wishes to be married to him. (Barring extenuating circumstances that are recognized by halacha as giving her the right to a divorce.)
Oh I see how it is. So when women marry, they should be informed that if they ever feel that their marriage is not salvageable and they feel their husband is not behaving as a yirai shamayim should and it has terribly affected her sholom bayis ... she has a choice to either be chained to him LITERALLY in an unhappy marriage or be chained to him FIGURATIVELY, because he won't let her marry someone else .... because he just "doesn't HAVE TO give a Get". Yep - I think this will pretty much ascertain that women will just stop getting married. But of course according to "Ben Torah" who really should change his moniker ... unless he has beaten you to a pulp there really is no other reason for divorce and you must remain in the home with the man you married, for eternity, in great unhappiness. Even though an irreparable marriage is completely subjective ... you must wait for "Ben Torah" to determine it is so along his lofty ideas of what should end a marriage.
DeleteCrack open a Shulchan Aruch, my friend. I'm simply the messenger of Halachic Law. You may not like it but it is our Holy Torah.
DeleteJewish Law specifies under which circumstances a wife may compel her husband to divorce her against his will. In the absence of such "halachic cause" she can not compel him to divorce her. He not only doesn't have to divorce her, but it is his every moral right to decide to remain married to her.
A wife at the time of her marriage, per Jewish Law, is agreeing to remain married to her husband and is agreeing she cannot force him to divorce her. (Again, barring legally specified extenuating circumstances.)
A wife is not entitled to a divorce simply because she wants a divorce.
All this is black-and-white halacha. It has been Jewish Law for over 2,000 years already.
Seriously - calling yourself "Ben Torah" is laughable.
DeleteCrack open any one of these:
A man may not diminish provision of all the food, clothes and affection that his wife needs (Exodus 21:10). He must provide financial support (standard kesuba), even if this requires hard or foul-smelling work (Pesachim 113a) or going to the field to farm (Yevamos 63a). He should share the benefits of his life and not cause her pain (Kesubos 61a). She must not cause him pain [Evven HaEzzer 119]. He must never be angry or frightening; he must promote her feeling joyous; and as his financial or social station rises, he must give her more money and status accordingly (Rambam, Hilchos Ishus). He should love her as much as himself and honor her more than himself (Yevamos 62b), give tangible expressions of honor such as jewels and ornaments (Sanhedrin 76b). Relative to what he can afford, he should eat and drink less that he can afford, dress himself according to what he can afford, and honor his wife and children with more than he can afford (Chulin 84b). He lets her be in charge of household matters; he must be careful with her honor; and is to never cause her to cry, to hurt or to curse him (Bava Metzia 59a). He must fully acknowledge and appreciate her for all which he accomplishes as a consequence of her support, encouragement or assistance (Kesubos 62b). He must give his wife compassion and protection (Hakdoma, Tur Evven Ho'Ezzer). He must take care of her needs before his own (Beraishis Raba 39:15). He must nurture a relationship of love and closeness with his wife (Iggeress HaKodesh, attributed to Ramban). During the first year of marriage, he may not leave his wife overnight, so she may grow secure with his love for her (Chinuch #582). He must take time to speak with her, and obtain and respect her opinions (Letter by Rabbi Akiva Aiger).
Now Ben (nothing) please explain to me how much honor he gave her, how he worked to support her, how he put her needs before his own, how he never hurt her or made her cry etc ... etc... And whether or not what she says is true, it is the antithesis of these aforementioned middos a husband MUST bestow on his wife that she claims is her grounds for divorce. A man, under these circumstances, who does not give his wife a Get is literally tormenting and torturing her and he will have to answer to his Maker one day. This is NOT Torah qualities.
Lament, suddenly changing the subject will not negate the facts of Jewish Law that I've above cited.
DeleteOf course a husband has obligations to his wife. (And a wife has obligations towards her husband.) No one said otherwise. We have not been discussing this point.
And if a husband or wife are failing their duties to each other, including the ones you've cited above, Beis Din is empowered to force them to honor their obligations. Beis Din can employ corporal punishment against either spouse if he/she fails to honor their legal obligations to their spouse. And of course if either spouse fails in their duties towards the other they will have to answer for that to the Ribono Shel Olam in the Beis Din Shel Maala and risks losing Olam HaBoah. Hopefully he/she will repent while still alive and begin honoring and fulfilling his/her duty towards their spouse.
That being said, Halacha specifies when -- and when not -- Beis Din is or is not empowered to compel a divorce. Jewish Law is specific as to whether a husband does or does not have to divorce his wife if she requests that. Just because one of the spouses want a divorce, does not necessarily mean they are legally entitled to a divorce. And in many cases where the spouse requesting the divorce is not entitled to make her spouse give it, Jewish Law says he may choose to remain married to her according to every legal and moral understanding.
When people get married they must do so with the understanding that they are not necessarily entitled to get divorced simply because they want to or are bored with their spouse or even of they feel their spouse does not value them as they feel deserved. They must in such circumstances seek counseling to improve their marriage until things are worked out.
I reiterate, marriages are not disposable. Know that going in. Know that wanting a divorce does not entitle one to a divorce.
Lament -- Actually Shulchan Arukh says that if a wife claims abuse and the husband denies it, Beis Din must first verify the veracity of her claims before acting on it. Shulchan Arukh says that Beis Din is to place a witness in the home to see whether he hits her as she claims or not. Shulchan Arukh says that if B"D finds he is in fact abusive, then B"D is to hit the husband until he agrees to stop abusing his wife. Then, says Shulchan Arukh, they shall remain married.
DeleteA wife making unverified claims of abuse is not acceptable in halakha to be accepted at face value. And even if verified, the first step B"D must do under halakha is to correct the wrongdoing and stop it. If after repeated attempts to stop the physical abuse is unsuccessful, then and only then says Shulchan Arukh may B"D force the husband to give a Get.
In an instance where there is no justification to require a Get, B"D keeps the marriage intact.
All fine and dandy, however, Talmud states, Hikdiach tavshilo deserves a Get. The world asks a kushya, what is a young wife to do, yet inexperienced in cooking and it so happened she burnt the meal? The tiruts is such, hikdiach tavshiLO, it was only HIS tavshil that got burnt, she skimmed off the top and served him the bottom of the pot which has burnt! Now that's what calls for a divorce. If and when she is spiteful that only gives him cause for divorce. It does not state that HE should not be angry and upset for being spiteful, or any of the whole list you quoted from all over the place. On the other hand, if he is chooses rather to go for marriage counseling, he may. Although, if they lived apart for a year or a year and half which qualifies either spouse for a get, I cannot see it if he is in an 'Amod vehechzer' mode the whole time and wants to save the marriage, else, any woman can physically move out to prove her qualification and done and over with. Not so fast my friend, she needs to have a qualified reason why she moved out to begin with, that is something that actually calls for a GET. Short of that, it is only an 'Amsula', just because one morning she woke up and decided marriage is to burdensome. That goes even if she orchestrates PR's, 'K -ORA -CH ve'edoso, kol kore's bayaar ubetoch hadus, vekol shaar divrei 'bela' to shame him into a get. If he prefers her candle lighting done his mothers way, that is a 'Milay Dishmaya', and you should know from your many quotes that it is his prerogative in doing so. If after all his efforts to salvage and save the marriage , she insists being a moredes, doing everything possible to actively destroy the marriage, sacrifice her son to be a lebedige yasom, "Shalem yeshalem hamavir es have'ero". Short of that, it is a forced Get, the child being labled chas vesholom a mam... Hayo lo tihye! Let us all have a happy and lechtige Chanukah candle lighting, and a mechtigen Shabbos.
DeleteUm - you are all missing the point. You are pickers and choosers of Torah. Anything I wrote has no implication directly on the Get. It is about bein adom lchaveiro. It is the mere fact that someone who learns the kindness and compassion that is expected from the Torah would not be withholding a Get when a woman feels unhappy and it HAS BEEN VERIFIED the marriage for all intents and purposes is OVER. Let's put it another way. Let's say that we just simply accept the aspect of the Torah that says a man does not have to immediately give his wife a Get ... In this PARTICULAR case the fact that the Weisses have asked for arbitration is a clear indication that HE in fact does believe the marriage is over. Weiss sypathizers can not have it both ways. You can not say he just simply doesnt give the Get because he does not want to because he thinks there is no grounds for divorce. If he felt that way they would say, we are just plain and simple hoping to remedy this marriage. But we all know it has been 4 years and there is no remedy and he is looking to iron out points ... therefore he is withholding the Get as leverage and for no other reason. It is hateful and spiteful.
DeleteThe gemora (Kesubos 61a) says that MARRIAGE IS FOR LIFE AND NOT FOR PAIN. By definition, when a marriage is painful, it is not a Torah marriage.
The Torah requires never paining a widow or orphan, and G-d becomes furious at and viciously punitive towards a perpetrator [Exodus 22:21]. Rashi says this is not limited to a widow or orphan; rather, it means NEVER PAINING ANYONE who is DEFENSELESS, WEAK OR VULNERABLE. Rambam (Hilchos Dayos) says that this must be fulfilled by giving such weak, vulnerable or needy individuals "rachmanuss yesaira (active and extraordinary compassion)." Since a wife is dependent upon a husband WHEN SHE IS ENTITLED IN HALACHA to a get, she is defenseless and vulnerable insofar as ending her married status is concerned. The one who is callous to her evokes G-d's fury. Chazal tell us that the way we treat another is the way G-d treats us, "measure for measure" (Sota 8b). Heaven gives compassion to each person who gives compassion to people; and Heaven withholds compassion from each person who withholds compassion from people (Shabos 151b).
This man who does not show compassion for a woman who feels pain will have to answer to his Maker whether he gives her the Get or not.
Lament -- Shulkhan Aruch says a husband has the legal and moral right to keep his family intact and not give a divorce - even if his wife wants one.
DeleteI'm not speaking of any particular case, such as the Weiss/Dodelson mess, I'm speaking in general terms.
As far as when a divorce is justifiable, it is the last part of the process that the Get is given. Only once all the end-of-marriage issues have been halachicly resolved is the Get given. Not beforehand.
If I understand the vehicle code for my state correctly, if I am driving uphill on a road that is only wide enough for one car and a dozen cars are coming down, even though I could back up 10 feet and let them pass I still have the right of way and can force them all to back up a long way to let me pass. If you're one of those cars coming down, can I feel certain that you will be cheerful and loving about me exercising my right, or will you think I'm being a total jerk and grumble about it?
Deleteyou summed it well, MG
Deleteyou summed it well, MG
DeleteYoel, that is a bad analogy. In your case the driver has little to lose, other than a minute and a half of his time for a courtesy. In a case like this the husband is being asked to surrender his family.
Deletehmmm... It ain't over until its over. The Get still needs to be lirtzono, and not just because she demands. She done him in for no good reason, neither is her quest for a divorce for good reason. She is no Agunah either, since at the rate she is going, she has no plans ever to remarry, hence no chains, no batiach and no battata. When she will do gutmachung for all her offences, then we can talk. Just curious, when she inflicted cruelty on him, by denying his child, by bringing her mother intimidating and bullying him around, being the weakling you allege her to be, from whence did she muster all that grandiose Achzariyut from? Huh? She is meant to be of an Ezer, but was much to proud to be subserviant to the head of the household. Weak, huh? Weak my foot. She thinks that she owns a few bucks, she owns the whole world. Let her take her money and shove it. There ain't anyone in their right mind that will marry such a tyrant. Just own up to the havoc she caused, and stop crying wolf, vesholom al Yisrael. As for "rachmanuss yesaira", Talmud quotes, "Shoite assur lerachem alav", and here is another one on the house, "Eize hu shoite, hameabed ma shenosnim lo". Other than that I grant you, she IS a big rachmanus. Use your influence GET ORA, ra leshamayim, vera labriyos
DeleteThe above comment from YY (You summed it well) is not from me, the YY without the B logo above and below. (I happen to agree with the comment though.)
Deletefoncused ....except thats not true is it?we both know theres alot more on the table than a get.let her sign a paper saying all she wants is a get and zero custody and i promise shell have a get within the hour
ReplyDeleteSo you are essentially saying that what Weiss really wants is that Dodelson should give up any claim she has to her child, pay him some s of money in. The Six digits, & only then will he give her a get?
DeleteSounds exactly like what the Dodelson's have been telling people. Thanks for confirming it.
both of them are hiding behind what they claim theyre not asking for...if only someone could get them both to post for the whole jewish nation the one which they are destroying what exactly they both want!!
ReplyDeleteJay,
DeleteWill she not accept a no strings attached get?
Is she "demanding" that he give her anything or make any concessions other than either give her a get?
he is an embarrassment to his family and she is to judaism.they are no longer fighting over custody of their child now it is about where he goes on tuesdays.are you kidding me?!!!!!!!!!grow up both of you!stop using your family and or money to fight this thing.its over stop being selfish
ReplyDeleteand foncused....you talk about people like reb dovid in a very passive way.lets remember he is the posek hador and knows a thousand times more than whoever your rabbi is.reb eliyashiv would call him and ask him halacha questions!so a little respect please
ReplyDeleteI have never been mezalzel in the Kovod of Rav Dovid in any way. If you are looking for people to give mussar to regarding the immense zilzul of Kovod Hatorah, you should have no problem keeping yourself busy talking to people who have used despicable language when describing Maran Harav Shmuel Kamenetzky- who is arguably the Godol Hador in the US, the Novominsker, Rav Malkiel Kotler and the rest of the signatories on the Kol Koreh.
DeleteIt is truly a case of the lot calling a shiny polished kettle black.
Oh please foncused. These rabbis have acted repeatedly in totally unacceptable ways. That you are so invested in this case and have never appeared on any of the other cases shows your complete negiuos in this matter. Gedolim don't refuse to hear both sides of a story. You are totally delusional. no one for a moment can'r see through your totally hollow claims.
ReplyDeletelastly she will get a Get when the feinsteins feel their interests be whatever they are will be protected adequately. Until that time tell your friends/ relatives etc in Lakewood and Riverdale no one is intimidated by them.
The behaviors of the alleged gedolim you name plus numerous others have been chronicled over and over on the internet. from covering up molestation to sending children to boot camps to failing to appear at reb moshe's bais din to ignoring the plight of me while women are destroying them in arko'oys from dovid cohen's fake heterim to go to arko'oys from belsky's corruption, people are not stupid.
these are not gedolim. all they know is to suck up to the rich.
wow so you only consider people who sign the dodelsons papers or who they say sign it to be gedolim wow amazing and for the record if you want to put words in my mouth go right ahead but i never said he wants her to give him aryeh never.i said that she doesnt just want her get because if she did she could have it already along with all her other demands yes demands she could have it all and yes the only thing stopping her from agreeing to everything according to her own people are those three things
ReplyDeleteand reb shmuel himself was disgusted when he saw the new york post DISGUSTED could not believe a jewish girl would stoop so low
ReplyDeleteand i dont think your the tiniest bit polished
ReplyDeleteDo you know me at all to speak that way about me? What have I said that allows you to think that about me?
DeleteYou don't agree with my proposal because it exposes the falsehood behind the Weiss argument, so your knee-jerk reaction is to call me names.
That's ok, though. I'm mochel you. Hopefully at some point you will realize that this is not about me or you, but about resolving the issue at hand.
You may feel you score points here by making it about me, but those points are trivial, they aren't worth anything in the grand scheme of things.
and yes it is disturbing that people have said negative things about hose three gedolim very disturbing
ReplyDeleteat this point if the two sides are talking why do you have to put all the details on line all day. what is the gain and what is the heter for DT to have all this loshon hara spoken. why does everyone have to be involved in the details of the custody,get. it is not simple and as time goes on and circumstances change there will be need for changes to accommodate the situation. which Rav gave DT the heter to do what he is doing? you were upset that GD went public . one might argue she had signatures... even if you do not agree but which rav gave DT the right to do what is being done on this blog.
ReplyDeleteweiss is a big boy. he has family BH and if they wanted to put info they can put up a website and they are not doing that. did Reb David or Reb Reuvain give you permission to do what you are doing? did you show them the articles and comments and ask if you are allowed to be doing this? would be quite doubtful that they would agree.
not practical
ReplyDeleteand talking is relative the dodelsons pull out for one reason or another evry five minutes and am cant give in more than he should so talking is debatable...the only thing which will cement the talks is if both sides put what they want in writing and get it signed by a lawyer the get part was pun intendid
ReplyDeleteAgain, Dodelson has nothing to put out- she wants a Get- she doesn't want anything else from him.
DeleteCan anyone who reads this blog point to one demand Dodelson is asking of Weiss?
You can't, because she isn't asking for something.
DT posted an arbitration agreement consent form that Dodelson sent to Weiss- the proposal for that arbitration agreement came from Gital's lawyer!!! She has shown that she has proposed ways to end this, let's see anything that Weiss sent to Dodelson.
there is no excuse to say bad things about gedolim but weiss supporters are merely trying to stop the tide of abuse dodelsons supporters are bringing.
ReplyDeleteIf there is no excuse, why are you excusing it by justifying it?
DeleteSince the Weisses have never actually issued a public statement just some minor replies, I got to thinking outside the box. The delay can't be about money. 350k to save your daughters and grandsons reputation is nothing. Besides, it sounds like he is getting something anyway. The PR firm may have done its job painting this man as a control freak but it also has most people thinking of her as a one track minded individual. Second, this time on friday business. Foncussed doesnt seem to deny this point. Now, I see that he is entitled to 3 hours before shabbat as of now. This brings up his hour total slightly but he obviously is demanding it. Remember what she wrote that she is looking for a good stepfather for her son. I can see how that one line burns more than all of her attacks. Obviously, she wants her kid as well. Im sure we can pad his time and keep her happy. This isnt rocket science. This other issue of not allowing him to go where he wants. Where does he want to go? Staten island or the moon. I assume he won't go to staten island every time he has the kid. I don't know why one would want to go there at all. Here, it seems it is a battle of control freaks. She saying you can't and him saying I will do as I want. This is pretty much the way you figured the marriage was going to end anyway. I think he should win here. Why? Because she says she wants out for good. So, stop being a control freak yourself and let him go. If he is stupid enough to travel all the time with him, I am sure a judge would have no problem realizing his time needs to be reduced. Until that happens let him think he controls something. Right now, as much as foncussed and the Dodelsons might not want to admit it - he controls everything.
ReplyDeleteI admit he controls everything, that is precisely my point. If he wants to force the Dodelsons into a corner because his demands are reasonable, I presented a very simple thing he can do. If he doesn't want to do it, it is most likely because he feels that the fact that he is "in control" gives him the right to make this parsha drag on even longer so that he can extract every last bit of pain he can cause the Dodelsons.
Delete"lastly she will get a Get when the feinsteins feel their interests be whatever they are will be protected adequately."
ReplyDeleteThank you "facts"/"Truth"/Weiss, for making my point tha the Weiss family obviously has no interest in bargaining honestly. You have every right to protect your interests, but at least be up front about what they are. You aren't doing it to protect anything, obviously, that is why your demands keep changing.
Foncused while you claim you are relying on facts and logic - this is simply a smear. You assume that the commentators are from the Weiss family and then use that as a proof that they are dishonest and their demands keep changing. Neither point have you offered any credible evidence.
DeleteFair point- but I wouldn't consider this a smear.
DeleteI do this because I am constantly "accused" of being a Dodelson or a relative threof, & because these people claim to be privy to details that only family should know.
Especially since, as we have been told, the Weiss's are desperate to keep this out of the public sphere. They can't possibly be responsible for the commenters knowing what the child's t-shirt said on any random day, what pajamas &/or coat he was or was not dropped off with/picked up with, or what demands the Dodelson family agrees to &/or don't agree to at this point. They also wouldn't know how exactly every detail of the marital strife did or did not take place.
Because the Weiss's are intensely private, & would never air their dirty laundry in public, as we've been reminded over and over as nuaseam.
So either:
The Weiss's aren't as private as the like to say they are,
The Commenters are outright liars when they say what they purport to be "Truth" & "Facts" as they have no way to know,
The Commenters are the Weiss family &/or close allies.
See, simple reason & logic. I'd say the third option is the least "smear"like.
Fair point- but I wouldn't consider this a smear.
DeleteI do this because I am constantly "accused" of being a Dodelson or a relative threof, & because these people claim to be privy to details that only family should know.
Especially since, as we have been told, the Weiss's are desperate to keep this out of the public sphere. They can't possibly be responsible for the commenters knowing what the child's t-shirt said on any random day, what pajamas &/or coat he was or was not dropped off with/picked up with, or what demands the Dodelson family agrees to &/or don't agree to at this point. They also wouldn't know how exactly every detail of the marital strife did or did not take place.
Because the Weiss's are intensely private, & would never air their dirty laundry in public, as we've been reminded over and over as nuaseam.
So either:
The Weiss's aren't as private as the like to say they are,
The Commenters are outright liars when they say what they purport to be "Truth" & "Facts" as they have no way to know,
The Commenters are the Weiss family &/or close allies.
See, simple reason & logic. I'd say the third option is the least "smear"like.
Fair point- but I wouldn't consider this a smear.
DeleteI do this because I am constantly "accused" of being a Dodelson or a relative threof, & because these people claim to be privy to details that only family should know.
Especially since, as we have been told, the Weiss's are desperate to keep this out of the public sphere. They can't possibly be responsible for the commenters knowing what the child's t-shirt said on any random day, what pajamas &/or coat he was or was not dropped off with/picked up with, or what demands the Dodelson family agrees to &/or don't agree to at this point. They also wouldn't know how exactly every detail of the marital strife did or did not take place.
Because the Weiss's are intensely private, & would never air their dirty laundry in public, as we've been reminded over and over as nuaseam.
So either:
The Weiss's aren't as private as the like to say they are,
The Commenters are outright liars when they say what they purport to be "Truth" & "Facts" as they have no way to know,
The Commenters are the Weiss family &/or close allies.
See, simple reason & logic. I'd say the third option is the least "smear"like.
So you have said three times. You cannot force anybody to negotiate private matters in public, that is what the Dodelsons have been trying to do the whole time and trying to take advantage of what the public is not aware of, half pictures, lies etc, e.g. arbitration, mediation, proposals, drafts, unsigned, and as if never went to Rabbi Greenwald. Just get over it. It is INDEED a private matter, and stop putting words into anybody's mouth or second guessing. When postings of documents appeared, that is only kedei lehotzi miliban shel tzedokim that are trying to FONCUSE the truth and mevaze the Torah vachachomeho with a grandiose Chilul Hashem. The Weisses were never into this, and stop your arm twisting attempts. Take a deep breath and relax, have a Happy Chanukah.
DeleteLikewise I'd like to thank "Facts"/"Truth"/ Weiss & jay for showing everyone in what disregard you hold our leaders. Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky May or may not have said what you say he said, Jay, that isn't the point. His saying that doesn't mean that he thinks Weiss is right. He still holds what he holds, Even if that alleged comment was ever said. (It has only ever been alleged from Weiss sources who have previously been caught spreading papers with outright Ziyufim from Rav Shmuel.)
ReplyDeleteI challenge anyone here to find an instance where I spoke B'derech Zilzul when I referred to Rav Dovid. Rabbi Eidenson can attest to this as well- if he reviews our (lengthy) email correspondence, he won't find an instance either.
Why is that?
Because I don't need to rely on being mezalzel people to make my point. I can make it using logic & reason- like I did here. But those of you who need to rely on sideshow distractions to make whatever point you are trying to make (which is basically anything to distract from the real question- what does AMW really want to grant a get) are the ones who are really responsible for this parsha dragging out as long as it has.
Even if you are right, (which is a dispute they sadly will never adjudicate in Bais Din) that he has no halachic responsibility to give her a get, what does he gain from dragging this out?
At the end of the day, she can't end this parsha without him. She can delete everything online, fire her PR people, tell the Bais Din she's Movhel her tviah, but until he gives a get, it won't be over.
He can end it all without her doing a thing. All he has to do is give a get.
The question I'm asking, as the Dodelson's are:
"Avraham Meir Weiss, what do you want from Dodelson so that this can end already."
All he needs to do is be open & honest with his answer, & this will be resolved faster than you can learn a Blatt Daf Yomi.
Even if that alleged comment was ever said. (It has only ever been alleged from Weiss sources who have previously been caught spreading papers with outright Ziyufim from Rav Shmuel.)
DeleteWhat is this about?
Are you saying that Rav Shmuel applauded Gital's NY Post interview!? Other rabbinic supporters were horrified.
DeleteI did not say that he applauded the interview. As a matter of fact, the people close to the Dodelson's whom I have heard from had told me that the Dodelson family was unhappy with how the NY Post article came out. Does that mean that they think that they lost all their Zchusim here? Absolutely not!
DeleteMy point is that the same people who are Mezalzel in Rav Shmuels Kovod consistently over the course of this case are now the ones alleging that he said he wanted to throw up. I have no idea if he said it or not.
It's irrelevant. I didn't like that they went to the New York Post- I could've told you that it would come out the way it did. That doesn't make him more right or her more wrong AS IT PERTAINS TO WHO IS HOLDING THIS FROM BEING RESSOLVED.
I could really care less about litigating who is right, & who is wrong. As far as I'm concerned, he lost that Zchus when he didn't show up to Bais din, &/or pick a Borer who could actually perform his duties as a borer.
Making this about the NY Post, or about who has halachic right not to give a get is something I'll leave to HKB"H to decide after 120 years. Getting bogged down in that is why there is no progress- & it seems to be the only way the Weiss allies want to respond to anything.
It is what makes me doubt that the Weiss's want a resolution.
The Ziyufim I refer to are when someone who is allied with Weiss who lives in Lakewood, forged a bunch of signatures contradicting the Kol Koreh from the first rally. It is said that Rav Shmuel refused to be Movhel the person responsible.
DeleteWeiss picked a borer, Rav Yehoshua Heshel Wolhendler, who was fully capable of serving as borer and himself wrote a letter accepting his appointment as borer.
DeleteThat's interesting. For some reason, Mechon L'Horaah seemed to be under the impression that he was unable to serve as a borer & therefore did not accept it as a proper response from Weiss. It may have been because he was incapacitated due to a stroke- I don't know.
DeleteEither way; in Weiss's "Statement & supporting documents" he admits that he chose a second person after he chose R Wohlhendler. But he doesn't say whom this person is. The Bais Din likewise rejected this.
Still, this is just a distraction at this point from Weiss's ability to end all of this.
Mechon L'Horaah was under no such impression and Mechon L'Horaah NEVER said that they think he is incapable and Mechon L'Horaah never asked that another borer be chosen.
Deletei never said anything bad about any gadol.the only thing i quoted from reb shmuel was his disgust for the new york post if you look at that as a bad thing you have other problems
ReplyDeleteand the only thing avram meir will ask gital what can i agree on that you wont keep reneging on the deal and just take your get already and stop making a chillul Hashem buddy mr foncused what you need to do is come back when you are unbiased as i did.then you will see that there is no right side here and that your gedolim arent greater than theirs and the person your backing isnt any less of a piece of garbage as theirs is instead of just throwing challenges and smearing people very childlike.please go back and read your own quotes and see if they sound like a rational person or a dodelson supporter focused once more on taking things to the next level
If you believe that, there's no point in continuing to engage you.
DeleteYou are arguing, essentially, that Weiss is only asking that Dodelson tell him what she wants from him to allow him to give the get, & then he'll give it. That's not backed up by any reality.
Weiss has real demands. Dodelson is only asking for a get. That's step one. Nobody disputes that. Weiss's people say he's justified in his demands. Dodelson people say he isn't. That's the long and short of it
The problem is that nobody has ever made him commit to exactly what he wants. If he wasn't asking for anything big, what does he have to lose by putting it on a legal document? The worst that can happen is that she accepts it. The best? She doesn't, @ he has conclusive proof that she is being unreasonable.
You calling it silly doesn't make it so.
I'm also very interested where you saw me say that you said those things about the Dodelson rabbonim. I said that you were justifying their behavior by saying they only were doing it because of whatever Dodelson did.
DeleteFacts I have no connection with the Feinsteins whatsoever. I have met R Dovid and asked for help about a personal matter and he wouldn't help me. There are things about the feinsteins I like and plenty that i don't but because of respect for reb moshe let's leave it at that.
ReplyDeletein fact i don't understand if r dovid is the biggest posek in America why he never came out claearly against arko'oys all these years. the ecuse i have been told is no one will listen. me'mokom she'ain ish , vechulu.
However even you have acknowledged now Weiss may not have any halachik obligation to give her a get. if so then how dare anyone send out letters claiming he is mechayev a get and being meveyesh him and his family be'rabim and "forcing" artscroll to terminate his uncle.
If this Dodelson woman had not started restricting the father she would have received a get. and if the feinstein's are able to retract their klegal losses good lick, and then the feinsteins should come out and say that needs to be done in future in every case to prevent a get meuseh. so please i have no kesher with the feinsteins whatsoever.
lastly one cannot be mezalzel someone who already cheapened himself to the n-th degree. And this is what all these talmidei chachomim have long done acting like dictators and giving favors to all the ashirim while the hamon am don't count one drop.
I will say this one time to you. Your blatant chutzpah when speaking about the Gedolei HaDor is worthy of someone who has no Ha'aracha for the Olam Habah he will not see. The fact is, Az Ponim L'Gehenom.
DeleteI have not said that Weiss is not required to give a get. I said that this is a point of disagreement between the two camps. Even if one was to agree with the Weiss's, there still is the question of what he sees as the practical value of dragging this on.
I believe that the Chachomim & Gedolim of every Dor are not for little people like me to question. The signers of the Kol Koreh know very well the halochos of Gittin- they still signed. Obviously they disagree with you.
Rabbi Eidenson would rather tht they write a Tshuva explaining their rationale. I don't think they need to . That is their prerogative.
But the way you feel it is okay to speak about the Gedolim is just shamefull.
Maran HaGaon Posek HaDor HaRav Dovid Feinstein shlit"a is more familiar and learned and experienced in Hilchos Gittin than anyone here. And he has spoken and ruled al pi halacha that Avrohom Meir Weiss is correct in this dispute.
DeleteI'll take HaGaon HaRav Dovid over your ideas and thoughts.
Weiss is not required to give a Get. As far "as the practical value", that is for Weiss to decide. You may disagree with him over the practical value or lack thereof, but it is his decision alone.
I'm unaware of any "ruling" from Rav Dovid to this effect. All that exists is his letter that says that based on the facts in a letter from Ronnie Grewnwald, (which Greenwald later said were incorrect) AMW doesn't have a din of a mesarev.
DeleteRegardless of what Rav Dovid holds in this case, how do you figure that gives you the right to be mezalzel in the other Gedolim?
@Foncused - "blatant chutzpah when speaking about the Gedolei HaDor" - You are a brainwashed fool if you believe that true GADOLIM would support women who abandon their marriages, force GITTIN, abduct their children, file full lawsuits in ARCHAOS against their husbands, and publicly smear the Torah in front of millions of non-Jews.
DeleteThe so-called "Gadolim" assisting these MOREDES women are simply political bosses who follow the money and the feminist HAMON AM. In the case of R. Shmuel Kaminetsky, he has a track record of backing a number of MOREDES women (in addition to Gital Dodelson and Tamar Epstein), without even investigating the cases.
Start worshipping Hashem instead of worshipping your so-called "Gadolim".
http://www.thefearkashes.com/2012/01/tamar-friedman-no-get-part-2-david.html
Rabbi Greenwald did not say the facts that were presented to Rav Dovid were incorrect nor did he say that anything he wrote was incorrect
DeleteHe did say that the letter that was released was misleading & he apologized for that. The fact remains that even if R Dovids letter is still 100% valid, it is a far cry from the claim that he paskened that Weiss is correct. All his letter ever spoke to is the issue as to whether he can be called a mesarev or a meagen when the issue is before an arbitrator. There is no (public) Horaah from Rav Dovid about this. Maybe he has told the Weiss's that- but that would only be known to them, because they wouldn't be airing their laundry in public.
DeleteSo I'm left to assume again either
MG is lying
He is closely affiliated/a member of the Weiss family
It is clear from HaGaon HaRav Dovid Feinstein shlit"a's letter that he supports Avrohom Meir Weiss' position on this dispute.
Deletefoncused the post is actually what stopped negotiations...i guess u arent on the dodelson side otherwise you would know that.and no weiss supporter forged anything its not their MO thats a dodelson MO and Truth reb dovid didnt help you because helping you prob wasnt the right thing to do.and as far as your comments on how the gedolim cheapened themselves that is not for you to judge and especially because you only heard that the gedolim on dodelsons side were doing that you have no right to believe it.believing that about our accepted gedolim makes you a bad bad person
ReplyDeleteI enjoy your attempt to act as if you are impartial while you accuse the Dodelsons of forging something.
DeletePlease state one instance where anyone accused the Dodelson's of forging anything.
You can't.
Yet you state plainly that it is their MO.
You lie, & you have no problem doing it- which is most disturbing.
For my part, I will email Rabbi Eidenson The name of the person who was the Weiss zyfun, I don't believe he even denies doing it:
both sides of this party should be ashamed.the dodelsons for their anti semetic tactics and the weisses for their stubbornness and everyone blogging taking sides trashing gedolim on both sides spreading false rumors should all be ashamed of yourslves im done with this,i suggest you all enjoy chanukah this whole thing isnt good for anyones blood pressure happy chanuka
ReplyDeleteI have a question for foncused. While we have heard him ramble that he knows we haven't seen any proof from him. I checked his dodelson papers and they don't exactly say what they say the papers say. The weisses may or may not have any proof or rights but I am puzzled why everyone is claiming they have more than a leg to stand on. Ronnie Greenwald definitely sided with them to some degree. I spoke to some of the rabbinical signers and they want nothing to do with this case any more. One rabbi told me he was told this was over 2 weeks ago. Now the weisses may be having last second demands but according to you they are not entitled to anything. You write they lost everywhere. Yet, I'm getting the distinct feeling that weiss will wind up with significant more concessions than what was given to him in court. If he gets away with that, and he is not entitled to it, it will set back Ora and other agunas 20 years. I fully expect you to say no deal and protest against the rabbis in a way similar to weiss supporters. If he is entitled to it and everyone besides you and the Dodelsons are happy then it shows you were a liar. If it shows the Dodelsons and the weisses are unhappy but satisfied it still shows you are a liar but that chochma prevailed. Foncused, I hope you aren't a dodelson because I want them happy when this is finally over but I do believe from what this rabbi told me it is over.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand what point you are trying to make other than to call me names. I haven't posted any papers, so I don't know what papers you refer to. But it is interesting that you attempt to undermine my credibility, while at the same time saying that you spoke to "some" of the Rabbonim who signed the Kol Koreh, & you claim they want nothing to do with it anymore.
DeleteBut you are unable to name who you spoke with.
Svoroh Yeshoroh would dictate that if there were actual names you would have no problem naming them, because that would serve to bolster your argument. But it never happened, that's why you won't name names.
This is not a new tactic- it's been going on since the first Kol Koreh.
I'm also curious why you think Weiss will end up with "significant more concessions" if according to the pro-Weiss posters here, he isn't asking for anything significant.
DeleteFoncused, I spoke with rabbi kaminetzky, rabbi perlow and rabbi Kotler. 2 of the 3 told me it is over but I can't divulge which 2. I am sorry but I was told in confidence. You constantly refer to the dodelsons papers from their website. The papers do not prove exactly what they are saying. Weiss is called the defendant in the divorce proceeding. They give a reason for that which is not proven. They show that he says the child has not been withheld from him but don't show the first time. One the whole, I always question documents that are served piecemeal. Don't get me wrong, weiss is no angel. In regards to the concessions I see things differently from many of the people here. If you already have degraded your religion and prostituted yourself (sorry but those are the facts), anything you still have to give in is big. You are right in the scheme of things but you have to measure it against what was sacrificed. If the husband winds up with more time and money you need to ask yourself if what you did to yourself and your supporters was worth it. I don't feel it was. I also did not mean to call you a name for the sake of calling a name. I am sorry if you took it that way and I probably said it wrong which gave you little option. I was referring to your facts in the case. Obviously, we are all missing facts. Your facts would be rendered incorrect if this turns out to be concessions on the part of the dodelsons. I hope you are wrong btw so we can all move on from all this.
DeleteThe fake "AGUNAH" claim is constantly being tossed around by the feminists with the false implication that women like Gital Dodelson are without husbands and unable to get married to another man, through circumstances beyond their control.
ReplyDeleteBut this not the true situation. It seems to me that a true AGUNAH can only be a Jewish woman whose husband is unavailable to her through no fault of her own. Gital however has an option to return to her husband, but she refuses to return. Her husband has not disappeared, he is not violent or dangerous, and he did not throw her out of the house. If her husband refused to take her back, and then refused to give her a GET under any circumstances, then she might be a true AGUNAH. That is not the case here.
If a husband simply asks for his halachic rights in return for a GET, that cannot be considered an AGUNAH, except in the disturbed feminist minds of the OH-RAH activists.
Regarding R. Weiss's legal fees owed to him by Gital - I believe it to be the case that if R. Weiss had abducted their child, and if Gital had gone to court just to obtain parenting time with her child, R. Weiss would owe Gital the cost of her legal fees. The ORA (OH-RAH) feminist hypocrites would then aggressively demand that he pay her every cent of her damages.
ReplyDeleteIt is clear that HALACHA is in fact reasonable and fair to both spouses, and is not "misogynist", anti-woman, or sexist like the ORA (OH-RAH) feminists who dominate the media would have us believe.
In truth it is the ORA feminists who are the true sexist hypocrites with their double standards of justice where women are simply never held accountable for any of their actions, and Jewish husbands are required to passively submit to all their wive's demands.
YOU are the one who makes believe that the torah is cruel against women. That's why I believe you are an atheist troll who just wants to present the torah in a dark, cruel light.
DeleteFoncused xhange your name to obsessed. Far bigger true Gedolin got it wrong about the Holocast.
ReplyDeleteThe current sel appointed only serve the rich. The Agudah in its own backyard has holchei arko"oys and those with siruvim against them and it just ignores this.
Jay, do you see the way these people who clam to be Yirei Shomayim speak about our Gedolim? I hope you don't agree with them- I know that you said earlier that you don't.
ReplyDeleteBut MG, Emes L'Yaakov, Facts, & whatever other pseudonyms are being used here to spew venom against our Morei Derech is something we should all agree is wrong.
I am Mocheh for Kovod HaTorah- I hope anyone here who cares about the Torah will join me.
While I am utterly disgusted by the zilzul talmidei chachamim hurled around by "facts" and Emes Leyaakov, I think it raises an important issue.
ReplyDeleteSpecifically, foncused (and myself and others) have been somech on the Gedolim who signed the kol koreh (which includes numerous Roshei Yeshiva, of the most respected in America, members of the Moetzes, as well as the biggest baki in Gittin in America, who I believe is a musmach of Rav Moshe.)
Of course this doesn't faze the great facts and Emes Leyaakov, as they feel qualified to dismiss all the signateurs, and claim that they are not the "real" gedolim and be mizalzel them. (The gaava is apalling. But I digress...) In other words, they have their own preconceived notions about what halacha should be, and anyone who disagrees with their own understanding is automatically labelled not a real gadol. (They do what they accuse modern orthodoxy of doing, in making halacha fit with whatever they think it should be.)
Obviously, this kind of attitude essentially undermines any notion of Daas Torah. The dirty tactics employed by emes Leyaakov and facts can just dismiss anyone who they don't agree with as being not the real gedolim, So this tactic can be used by anyone to marginalize anyone they disagree with. It was used by the Eida to marginalize Rav Elyashiv. I think it's a dirty tactic, and those who use it should be careful, because it essentially undermines the entire notion of Daas torah, and rest assured, it will come back to bite you, when those whom you believe to be gedolim (ie those Rabbonim that agree with your preconceived notions) are themselves marginalized as being not the "real" gedolim. Just saying.
I'm someach on HaGaon Posek HaDor HaRav Dovid Feinstein shlit"a in the position he's taken vis-a-vis the Dodelson Get matter.
DeleteDoes that allow you to be mizalzel in all the Gedolei Torah who are on the other side?
DeleteI don't understand how anyone with any reiach hatorah can make comments like those that appear in this thread, consisting of absolute zilzul of talmidei chachamim.
I've been mizalzel no one. I haven't once mentioned any other Rabbonim.
DeleteAnd I will continue to follow, promote and honor the position of HaGaon Posek HaDor HaRav Dovid Feinstein shlit"a vis-a-vis the Dodelson Get matter.
I suppose that emes le yakov, facts, stan, all those who speka up in favor of get-extortion are really trolls who really want to ridicule halacha by showing how cruel and untenable the positions they claim to defend are.
Delete@U.K:B - I challenge you to cite one comment posted by myself that advocates any type of "get-extortion".
DeleteYour comments here serve notice that you are simply incapable of arguing with any degree of honesty and intelligence, which is the case with most of the ORA (OH-RAH) trolls.
Perhaps you can find a therapist in the U.K. who treats persons suffering from feminist delusions.
oh i only saw two comments one about our gedolim which yes is a point i do have a problem with that one was from facts but the one about ORA i have no problem with,they truly are bad people. harassing reb ruvein feinsteins wife like they did,but yes i do disagree with all comments thaat say our gedolim favor the rich ect. i thought the same thing at the start of this whole thing then i realized that if i can bash a gadol who doesnt side with tthe side i held to be right then it may be this gadol today,but tomorrow its the next one and there goes all our gedolim ,it is not our right to believe things we dont know to be true ,about gedolim or anyone but especially our gedolim the ones would go out of their way to do anything for any jew
ReplyDeletebut the rest of your views and how you twist everyones words foncused is not regulat at all,and i disagree with most of it.happy chanukah to you all although you prob wont have one judging by this blog
ReplyDeletedoes M'ran Horav Shertbuch approve of you posting this in a public forum?
ReplyDelete“WHAT IS HOLDING UP THE GET”.
ReplyDeleteI formerly respected the Feinstein clan, but how can they pretend that something other than Avramie Weiss is holding up the get.
Is it aliens from space? Is it Angels? The FBI?
A get doesn’t hold itself up. The one who has it in his power to deliver the get either (a) delivers the get to the ex-wife or (b) refuses to deliver the get.
There’s no postal service employee that has seized the get and “is holding up delivery of the get”.
There is no heavy traffic in Manhattan“that is holding up delivery of the get”.
There’s no government regulation“that is holding up delivery of the get”.
There is no halachic shayla “that is holding up delivery of the get”. is
Feinstein Family: Can we stop all the deception here about “what is holding up the get”.
Avramie Weiss has the get. He is extorting his ex-wife by refusing to deliver the get unless she complies with his demand for money and better child custody terms.
So it is 100% pure deception on the part of the Feinstein Family to pretend there is some question as to “What is holding up the get”.
Abraham Meir Weiss, einikle of Reb Reuven Feinstein is personally “holding up the get”. To pretend otherwise is delusional.
End of Story
I am sure the Feinstein "clan" values your opinion highly.
DeleteIt is not bechinam a GET must be lirtzono. If it only takes such chutzpanyot lil pipsqueeks to destroy a yiddish marriage, you will cry not only shiduch crisis, agunah crisis, but a churban of klal yisrael, and this seems a perfect start!
Delete"I am Mocheh for Kovod HaTorah- I hope anyone here who cares about the Torah will join me."
ReplyDeleteSo am I. Why are these fake men masquerading as the representatives of the Torah when they are not? Why do they ignore the plight of all those who were ,molested? Why does one of them fire someone whose son is molested and the rest of them keep quiet?
Why do they not prostest about k'vod shomayim when so many of their followers refuse to follow halocho and go to to bais din?
Why do some of them have the chuzpah not to go to bais din when called by reb moshe feinstein and then have the chutzpah to endorse a corrupt bais din which had its rulings overturned by the courts because of pure bias - the chilul hashem involved - when anyway this bais din charged $100s an hour in violation of halocho?
why do these rabbis concern themselves with gittal who is malikiel's 1st cousin when they don't concern themselves with many\, many other divorce cases?
You see you can be moche foncused about your fake gedolim as much as you like. they are equivalent to the corrupt roman catholic church before the reformation.. you can be moche as much as you like but corruption = corruption. The facts speak for themselves.
"ho signed the kol koreh (which includes numerous Roshei Yeshiva, of the most respected in America, members of the Moetzes, as well as the biggest baki in Gittin in America, who I believe is a musmach of Rav Moshe.)"
ReplyDeleteexactly who are you referring to? who exactly there has practical shimush in gittin?
they don't come close to rav gestetner in knowing the laws of gittin.
Have you never heard of Rav Nota Greenblatt?
DeleteRav Dovid Eidensohn shlit"a is a musmach from Posek HaDor HaGaon Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashev zt”l to be Rosh Beis Din in Gittin.
Delete@Facts - Your analysis is excellent.
DeleteIts quite interesting how certain so-called Gadolim repeatedly sign fake politically or financially motivated SIRUVIM against Jewish husbands without citing any valid halachic sources to justify vicious harassment of those husbands and/or forcing GITTIN for wives who have abducted the children and filed full divorce lawsuits in family courts.
Whereas Rav Gestetner's Bais Din documents continually quote a slew of normative halachic sources to validate his positions opposing the fake SERUVIM, harassment campaigns, and GET MEOSO of OH-RAH and its fellow travelers.
(ORA) Superintendent and Foncused ranting about alleged "zilzul talmidei chachamim" is quite bogus as their ORA (OH-RAH) allies, using websites, public protests, and other means have committed the worst denigrations of Chareidi Torah scholars who refuse to embrace feminism and throw out the Torah.
I suggest you check Rabbi gestetner‘s sources before you use his validations!
DeleteAvrohom Meir Weiss has no obligation to give a Get until ALL end-of-marriage issues have been halachicly resolved. Not beforehand. A Get is the last step in the divorce process.
ReplyDeleteHe has no halachic basis whatsoever to claim alimony, child support, or 350'000$...
DeleteThank you for your halachic ruling. From now on everyone should come to you for psak instead of Rav Dovid Feinstein.
Delete"end of story" this posting head is delusion at his finest. he will give a get when this case is ended as to his liking which is the way it should be. his rights are not to be trampled on just because she is malkiel's cousin.
ReplyDeletefoncused - You seem to have an ax to grind. Perhaps you should call R Ronnie Greenwald, or R Shalom Kaminetzky. They have tried to work on deals. The Weiss's are SICK of this debating. They are trying to agree to one deal after another, but the dodelsons, who REFUSE to talk to them face to face, are not giving in to simple requests that are almost meaningless to her, but very important to him. She still won't even talk to R AMW. Perhaps you should look at the truth of the basic story; She left him. This case stated clearly in Shulchan Aruch אבן העזר סימן ע"ז סעיף ב that she is not entitled to demand anything. She does not have any involvement with Bais Din to ask for a divorce. She only used "social pressures" to extort a get.
ReplyDelete***R Shlomo Miller of Lakewood has already classified her as a רודף and declared that no one may sign any letters on her behalf.***
If she really wants a get, agree to the the conditions, accept the get, and go on with your life.
(Let us daven & hope that with the courts reconvening after Thanksgiving that this whole mess can be finished with and cleaned up!)
YY: Is that the same person as Rav Shlomo Miller of Toronto? In any event, what has Rav Shlomo Miller said about the Dodelson case?
DeleteWell, I suppose here is the union of men who do not work and, in opposition to halacha, want to live on their wives' income all their lives.
DeleteBimichilas kvod toroscho, you are an ignoramus spewing forth your worthless piskei halacha.
DeleteYes, I think it is Rav Shlomo Miller of Toronto, who also has his name on Lakewood Bais Hora'ah letterhead. He initially was shown the siruv and kol koreh and wrote a letter. When called and shown that the actual siruv was only for ערכאות, and was told about the news articles etc., he said that she is a רודף and that her "cause" should not be supported. She may go to Bais Din to obtain a get, but she has already stated that she has no interest in dealing with Bais Din to obtain her get. Just ask her or her family why they have not gone to B"D for a get.
DeleteUKB - I am aware that the halacha is appropriate to your view. The kesubah clearly dictates that a man must support his wife. The wife is also required to work to help support her household.(כתובות פרק אף על פי) However, many men in Yeshiva circles wish to dedicate their lives to learning Torah and spiritual pursuits, and many women want to be a participant of such devotion. It not only elevates him, but her and their entire family as well. Thus many women agree VOLUNTARILY to be the supporter of the family in order to allow their husband to learn Torah. This was the case with R AMW and Gital.
DeleteIf you feel that people should not follow such arrangements, that is your opinion, but you cannot condemn someone else's decisions because they are not your own. Men who keep to such an arrangement know that their wives are going above and beyond, and women know that the reward from Hashem for their actions is unimaginable.
I still await foncused detailed explanation for the outrageous behavior of the 'gedolim" he is moche about on this web site and not some excuse that they are 'gedolim" and therefor infallible.
ReplyDeleteJay I didn't publish it because I didn't think it was relevant or accurate
ReplyDeleteok thats fair,or because your blog will do better if people are fighting,i hear you
ReplyDeletewhy not let them decide!
ReplyDeletealso where the paper that reb shmuel just signed?
ReplyDeleteWhat did R Shmuel sign?
DeleteAlso, who can vouch for this R Sholomo Millner raid? It sounds major.
I think what YY mentioned above is a major development on this case. Since HaGaon HaRav Shlomo Miller shlit"a called Gital Dodelson a rodef and is supporting Avrohom Meir Weiss, that makes it two Gedolim shlit"a supporting him, the other being the Posek HaRav Feinstein shlit"a.
ReplyDeleteIt it 3. So is rav gestetner.
ReplyDeleteA friend asked me why I don't respond to all your comments. I told him that I now understand why the Dodelson's have such a hard time dealing with you. (As I explained earlier, I'm pretty sure most of you, although you deny it, are Weiss's or Weiss relatives.) Also, I think that you make it pretty clear without my interference how you despise the Torah, and it's Chachomim- unless they say exactly what you want them to say. & if they don't, you don't mind distorting their words. (Yes, I called/emailed some of the people you referenced, they tell very different stories than what you post here.)
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I couldn't do a better job marginalizing your way of thinking than you are doing yourself. So keep at it. The more you spread your shtissim here, the less likely you are at getting any concessions from the Dodelson's.
Happy Chanuka
Foncused here we go again with your nonsence about being a family member of the Feinsteins.
ReplyDeleteHere we go with the the incredible chuzpah when you cant explain the halachik and human decency violations of some self appointed men that qe despise the Torah. How dare you? The Agudah ignores psakim from Botei Din and I am the one who despises the Torah? Its Chanukah not purim. If yoy cant back up your allegations with proofs just slurs of the most most reprehensible kind you are hardly the epitome of relugiosity.
Now frankly either answer rhe allegations point by point or rwfraib from ad hominem attacks.
If u can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. read the latest kol kore of R' S. Kaminetsky. cease and desist, effective immediately.
ReplyDelete