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לרגל חתונת תלמיד ישיבת פוניבז' הרב אהרן קוטלר בנו של הרב שרגא קוטלר רו"מ ישיבת לייקווד, הגיע ראש ישיבת פוניבז' הגאון הגדול רבי שמואל מרקוביץ שליט"א לביקור בזק בארה"ב, במהלכו נשא מדברותיו בהיכלי התורה הגדולים ובעצרות המספד שנערכו לזכרו של מרן הגר"ש אויערבאך זצללה"ה.
ראש הישיבה מסר שיעור כללי בהיכלה של ישיבת לייקווד, בסוגיית צרת סוטה במסכת יבמות הנלמדת בישיבת לייקווד, בהשתתפות אלפים מבני ואברכי הישיבה, ובראשם ראשי הישיבה הגאונים הגדולים: רבי אריה מלכיאל קוטלר שליט"א, רבי ירוחם אלשין שליט"א, רבי דוד שוסטאל שליט"א ורבי ישראל ניומן שליט"א.
כמו כן נשא את המשא המרכזי בעצרת המספד הגדולה שהתקיימה בישיבת רבינו חיים ברלין בפלטבוש, שבראשות הגאון הגדול רבי אהרן שכטר שליט"א, בהשתתפות אלפים ובראשם הגאונים הגדולים: רבי אהרן שכטר שליט"א, רבי מלכיאל קוטלר שליט"א, רבי אלי' בער ווכטפויגל שליט"א ורבי אשר קלמנוביץ שליט"א ראש ישיבת מיר.
בנוסף נשא שיחות מוסר בהיכלי הכוללים והישיבות הקטנות בעיר לייקווד. בסיום הביקור הקצר שערך יומיים בלבד, שב ראש הישיבה ארצה.
Simple:
ReplyDeleteIn general, Chaim Berlin does not do hespedim. Period. However, Rav Shmuel Auerbach is different, as he had such a huge affect on the Yeshiva and students of the Yeshiva.
what affect?
ReplyDeletewe have Rav Ahron saying Rav Shteinman only had impact in Israel not flatbush
ReplyDeleteHow was R auerbach different?
Rav Shteinman was much greater than R' Auerbach jr.
ReplyDeletethat is true except in lomdus
ReplyDeleteOthers say the opposite.
ReplyDeleteOther yeshivos had hespedim for Rav Shteinman but not for Rav Auerbach.
ReplyDeleteYou didn't ask why not for Rav Auerbach.
That's not what I understood. Please listen to the recording again:
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2018/01/is-r-ahton-scheter-apikorus-for.html
How was R auerbach different?
They were directly influenced by the rulings of Rav Shmuel and not of Rav Ahron Leib. They deeply respect Rav Ahron Leib and his great accomplishments, but they did not follow his rulings or his unique ways in avodas Hashem.
Likewise, they also did not have hespeidim on the Viznitzer Rebbe - who just passed away - despite respecting his accomplishments. YRCB was not under the direct influence of the Viznitzer Rebbe and did not follow his rulings or his unique ways in avodas Hashem.
Wow. U must be really big to decide who was bigger. U also claim to be very close to rabbi Sternbuch. Ask him what he held of Rav Auerbach.
ReplyDeleteit is not my judgment it is the view of talmidei chachomim i know consistently say
ReplyDeletebecause of how he was viewed in the yeshiva world the answer is obvious
ReplyDeletefor example?
ReplyDeleteWhat does Rav Shternbuch hold? Rav Shternbuch seems to hold highly of Rav Auerbach as a godol hador.
ReplyDeleteThe Yeshiva world outside Israel did not take a position on the dispute among the Gedolim (Rav Auerbach and Rav Shteinman) in Israel.
ReplyDeleteMost notably the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of the Agudas Yisroel of America, for example, took this position of not taking sides.
You ignored the end of my comment. U consider ur self close to Rav Sternbuch. What did he hold of Rav Auerbach and Rav steinman?
ReplyDeleteRav Shach already designated Rav Shteinman as his successor. For whatever reasons, Rav Elyashiv _ the leading poseq _ took that position. After Rav Elyashiv's petirah, there was no question that Rav shteinman was the leader. BTW, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach was very different in outlook, from Rav shmuel.
ReplyDeleteDesignated as successor at ponovez, or gadol hador?
ReplyDeleteHe can do that for ponovez (itself controversial, but I'll overlook for purpose of discussion) but not for the dor.
https://jewishaction.com/tribute/gentle-giant-rabbi-shlomo-zalman-auerbach-ztl/
ReplyDeleteyou are totally wrong about this i met both and no one would confuse the two
ReplyDeleteIn what way were the talmidim of Chaim Berlin "directly influenced by the rulings of Rav Shmuel"?
ReplyDeleteRav Shmuel spoke for Klal Yisroel as much as any Godol HaDor did.
ReplyDeleteIn their time the previous heads of the Eidah HaChareidus, Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, Rav Yitzchok Yerucham Diskin and Rav Yoel Teitelbaum each spoke for Klal Yisroel as well.
This would be a good question if it was in any way sincere. But, alas, it is not.
ReplyDeleteJust one question: Who has the right and the qualifications to make determination on a practical level? Would it be some internet critic, or the person who heads the institution?
In any case, we create a Gadol in our own image. In Ponovezh, they have 2 or 3 Roshei yeshiva who have their warring factions. A gadol is usually someone accepted by a particular group. I would personally rely on Rav Yaakov Ariel and Rav Shmuel Eliyahu. They might be ignored or not even known in the Hareidi world. Similarly, In Har Nof or Bnei Brak you have different Gedolim to follow. Rav Shmuel was not even widely accepted in the Litvish world, whereas Rav Shlomo Zalman was so great that he was accepted world wide, by every group, modern, Hareidi, Hassidish and Sephardi.
ReplyDeleteA lot of people met both. How well did you know each of them is the question.
ReplyDeleteSo you don't believe in a godol HaDor.
ReplyDeleteRav Shlomo Zalman was very very similar to Rav Shmuel. Virtually to the point of them almost being indistinguishable in approach.
ReplyDeleteHilchot Sanhedrin _ someone without children cannot be head of Sanhedrin, they don't have rachmanus. Someone too old is also disqualified, they are too machmir.
ReplyDeleteRabbi eidensohn claims he is close to Rav Sternbuch
ReplyDeleteno the issue is what seems to be the consensus
ReplyDeleteit doesnt agree= with you
The consensus does agree with me.
ReplyDeleteNot really. Hardly anyone outside of Satmar and Eidah paid much attention to Rav Sonnenfeld or theSatmar Rebbe. I don't know much about Rav Diskin. The Satmar rebbe was not accepted by the misnagdim or Chabad, or Sephardim or Modernim or Tzionim. By that , I mean his halacha or world view. Contrast that with , for example Rav Henkin, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Ovadiah Yosef , who were world class leaders and whose psak was regarded highly by everyone.
ReplyDeleteBy the way - what do you count as Klal Yisrael, ? In halachic terms that means everyone who is Jewish. For example, certain laws in eretz Yisrael will take the force of D@oraita when the majority of klal Yisrael live in Israel. That is not only, hassidim or hareidim or frum people. It means more than 50% of the approx 12-14 million halachic Jews in the world. So a true Leader of Klal Yisrael is also responsible for that large number of Yidden who are not yet fully Torah observant. The small enclaves like the Eidah are extremely frum, which is good, but by the same measure they are also extremely cut off from the rest of the Jewish world.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe, had certain features of this leadership (which was sadly hijacked into a false messianic movement), but he was approached by people from all walks of life. I think this has always been a feature of the great leaders - people would write to the Rambam from far away to ask his opinion, same with Saadia gaon , etc.
No they didn't.
ReplyDeleteIf Rav X is gadol hador, then he has the ability to choose his successor. If not, then he doesn't have daas Torah. If you want elections, follow the chief rabbi.
ReplyDeleteI see, as suspected, that you have no basis for you statement that the talmidim of Chaim Berlin were directly influenced by the rulings of Rav Shmuel.
ReplyDeletePresumably, the reason why the person who heads the institution held hespedim for one and not the other was to make a statement about who he personally aligns with in the controversy in Israel.
Do you attribute the same statement of alignment reasons to those yeshivos that had hespedim for Rav Shteinman zt'l but not for Rav Auerbach zt'l?
ReplyDeleteWho do you think spoke for Klal Yisroel? Ronald Lauder?
ReplyDeletemk wrote It is worth noting that hespedim in Chaim Berlin were virtually unheard of, even for universally revered Gedolim.
ReplyDeleteThe only exception I am aware of, would surprise many people.
They had shloshim for Rav Aharon Soloveitchik ZTL. He was close to, and learned with, Rav Hutner in Warsaw and was a Rosh Yeshiva in Chaim Berlin. Virtually all of the most prominent talmidim of Rav Hutner were talmidim of his!
The entire Torah world, including Litvish, Chasidish and Sefardic all paid great heed and respect to all the past and present leaders of the Eidah HaChareidus.
ReplyDeleteThis is besides that the Jews who live like goyim don't count for much.
Rav Sonnenfeld and Rav Teitelbaum were as accepted by the Litvish and Sephardim as leaders of Klal Yisroel asml much as Chasidim and Sephardim accepted Rav Moshe and Rav Henkin as leaders of Klal Yisroel. Regarding the RZ/MO/Mizrachim, none of their leaders were ever accepted as leaders of Klal Yisroel by any rabbinic leaders outside their own communities.
As far as your comment regarding living in EY and using force, you're halachicly very much incorrect. (And that's all aside from the fact of your not having counted halachic Jews who were forcibly or voluntarily converted to other religions over the last 2000 years and all their millions of female-line offspring over the last several thousand years who don't even know they're halachicly Jewish.)
I think you are seriously mistaken, but we won't get very far since this is all wishful thinking. The satmar Rebbe was not widely accepted - an example is when Rav Kotler had to ask him to stop his attacks on the Chazon Ish. He was a de facto leader of a large Hassidic group, but his ideas are limited to the fringe groups.
ReplyDeleteRegarding RZ/MO - there is some truth to what you say - largely speaking, they are not recognized as being hareidi and hence their views as not accepted as being valid. However, Rav Elyashiv and rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach were great supporters of Rav Kook. And also rav Herzog - but again you are correct that he was not accepted by the hareidi world as a poseq. the Tziz Eliezer was somewhere in between the two worlds.
Regarding Jews (yes, i didn't count) - if we are talking about Shavei Yisrael and bringing these lost jews into Israel, then you will shout "Goyim". But when we talk about Shemittah, suddenly there are millions of kasher Yidden all around the world from 2000 years ago, with uninterrupted lineage. These hidden Jews that you use to count for one halacha (shemitta), you would not accept for another halacha (eg counting a minyan).
I had this discussion several times with haredi type thinkers.
Regarding use of force, you simply haven't read or acknowledged Hilchot Rotzeach. You cannot say it is no longer binding - that is reform or christianity.
Yes, but to a slightly lesser degree. Many mosdos in America had a personal connection to R' Shteinman due to his visits there, which could also account for it.
ReplyDeleteAll this time we have seen psakim of Rav Shternbuch shlita, saying the Russians are goyim, the Ethiopians are goyim , all the shavei yisrael targets are goyim, Spanish marranoes are goyim.. now you claim that 50% of thethem are Jewish, American intermarried are Jewish (who needs ejf?) Etc. Very interesting, do you have a halachic source or just sevara?
ReplyDeleteYou know so little about which you speak. The Satmar Rebbe, regularly, frequently and often, met, assisted financially and spiritually, and helped with the problems of the entire tzibbur.
ReplyDeleteRegarding your other point, people who are not observant of Shabbos and Torah, do not count for these matters that you speak of.
Russians with a non-Jewish mother and a Jewish father clearly are goyim. The Ethiopians have no chazaka whatsoever of being Jewish if they didn't have a full Orthodox conversion where they accepted (and intended) fulfilling the Taryag Mitzvos. And there are no Marranos today, 500 years later, that married only Jews -- in secret -- for the last 500 + years.
ReplyDeleteWhere do you find these bubbe maaisas? The SR didn't attack the CI, and the SR's good friend RAK never asked him to stop.
ReplyDeleteA visit once many years ago for a personal connection? Do they only give hespedim for those with such personal connections?
ReplyDeleteYou are saying there are millions of halachic Jews lingering around the world. These are more likely to be found in places of mass conversion (Spain) or assimilation (USA, Russia) than say in Eskimo country.
ReplyDeleteWhat is requiring force? I said that Shemitta is D@oraita in such a case. You cannot say halachically that there are 100 million Jews around the world.
RA Kotler was his good friend? 😂
ReplyDeleteYes, that's why he spent such a long time insulting RAK throuoghout his time in USA. I supposes the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe also was a close friend !
You are playing a game of rewriting history. Rav Elyashiv, as well as his grandfather, the leshem were very close to Rav Kook. The same goes for RSZA.
If you utilize your theory , then approx 50% of the Russians who claim some Jewish descent will have a maternal line. It is no use saying this if you don't know wo they are. The majority of Jews will very soon be living in EY.
Finally, you said "using force" , and i interpreted this as using force as per the army (which R' Shmuel opposed). In that context, Hilchot rotzeach does kick in. But i assume that you mean using force of a Gezeira? If 80-90% of the known Jewish population are non-Orthodox, then a Gezira nowadays is not halachically valid.
The satmar rebbe - he made an issur of visiting the Kotel (or Old city). How many people abide by that? Perhaps he had more influence on the Palestinians.
ReplyDelete" people who are not observant of Shabbos and Torah, do not count for these matters that you speak of."
Oh but they do. you cannot have it both ways. If someone who doesn't eat kosher eats treif, he is still liable for this. If someone who doesn't eat Kosher nevertheless fasts and observes yom Kippur, this is still a valid mitzvah. You are saying the tzibur is only who you want it to be. But we can all play that game.
Rambam, in Hilchos Shabbat, says that if a man goes fishing on Shabbat , and in his net he saves a drowning man, he is not liable for breaking Shabbat. So everybody counts, even if they go fishing on Shabbes.
Once again, I agree that for many mosdos that had hespedim for R' Shteinman and not R' Auerbach, the reason was that they believed the former to be the leader of the Litvish community and the latter to be a talmid chachom who lost his way and became a misguided rabble-rouser in the later years of his life. I suggest that some mosdaos may have developed a connection to R' Shteinman through his visits there (not just one visit, by the way). Take it or leave it.
ReplyDeleteRav Shteinman visited America with the Gerrer Rebbe and visited the same mosdos with him. Do these mosdos similarly consider themselves having a personal connection to the Gerrer Rebbe for the same reason you gave for Rav Shteinman -- that he visited?
ReplyDeleteRav Kotler saved upwards of 100000 lives, working with secular, reform, mo and working on shabbes. He was criticized by Lubavitcher, who also said those lives don't count. I don't have the details of Rav teitelbaum's machlokes, but my R'Y told us that he was using very strong language against RAK, but made up for it with a Hollywood styled hesped at his levaaya.
ReplyDeleteYour R'Y knows little about the very friendly relationship between the SR and RAK.
ReplyDeleteYou don't think the maternal line (daughter after daughter) of the Jews in Spain and Portugal who converted in the 1300s and 1400s are halachicly Jewish today?
ReplyDeleteThat is a falsehood. The SR spent exactly zero time whatsoever insulting RAK.
ReplyDeleteRav Elyashiv as well as RSZA were not a follower of Rav Kook's Zionism. Far from it. TheyThey comple disagreed and rejected Rav Kook's position.
Again, the non-Orthodox do not count.
And, similarly, there are mosdos that believed that Rav Auerbach was the leader of the Litvish community while Rav Shteinman was mistaken.
ReplyDeleteCan you please stop asking stupid questions and beating a dead horse? Of the places they visited, of course the LItvish ones would develop a closer connection to R' Shteinman than to the Gerrer Rebe. Over and out.
ReplyDeleteI agree. But this whole discussion is counter to the point of "Honesty," that the reason Chaim Berlin had hespedim for RSA and not RALS is because the bachurim in Chaim Berlin "followed his rulings or his unique ways in avodas Hashem," and that RSA had "such a huge affect on the Yeshiva and students of the Yeshiva," or other such nonsense.
ReplyDeleteNo, they are not. The Chasam Sofer writes that once the ties to being Jewish are totally lost, they are no longer Jewish.
ReplyDeleteI do. I accept your sevara. If there are marrano communities from that time who still have some signs, higher likelihood they have Jews amongst them. But you can't count them for a minute until you identify them. They could be lost forever.
ReplyDeleteRsza even promoted heter mechira. Sorry buddy, you are out of touch.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if it is mutar for you to read this, but try anyway
ReplyDeletehttp://orot.com/rav-kook-and-rav-shlomo-elyashev-leshem-1841-1926/
Whatever. You seem to be nitpicking words. The comment of "Honesty" isn't much different than saying that Yeshiva Rabbeinu Chaim Berlin had a closer kesher to Rav Shmuel zt'l and considered him to be the Godol HaDor of Klal Yisroel/Litvish world. Just as the argument you're making for the other Yeshivos in regard to Rav Shteinman zt'l.
ReplyDeleteThe Leshem was not so famous before Rav elyashiv was poseq hador. In the period before that, it was Merkaz Harav who were talking about Rav Shlomo Elyashiv, because he was close to Rav Kook.
ReplyDeleteRav Elyashiv quit the Rabbanut in disgust and denounced it. Rav Elyashiv also paskened that the Kenesset is a Beis Minus and it is halachicly forbidden for a Jew to even walk into the Kenesset, since it is a place of apikorsus:
ReplyDeletehttp://matzav.com/rav-elyashiv-shomrei-torah-umitzvos-should-not-enter-the-knesset/
The rest of your comment is also factually incorrect, including about Rav Elyashiv and the Brisker Rov.
Rav Shach already designated Rav Shteinman as his successor.
ReplyDeleteAre you certain? It seems to be the opposite, that Rav Schach made many difficult trips to Yerusholayim, in his advanced age, to prepare and designate Rav Elyashive as the successor.
What is the maare makom of this C"S? What is the long version of what he paskens?
ReplyDeleteIncorrect. But I wish not to engage your insincere badgering.
ReplyDeleteQuite silly to suggest that the only way for a rosh yeshiva such as Rav Aron Schechter to make his students aware of whose opinion he agrees with is through having hespeidim.
Naturally, if you meant something else, then it is simply unworthy of a response.
$1 million, and a new leader http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/242887
ReplyDelete...which is why they did not have hespedim for Rav Shteinman.
ReplyDeleteWhich would change your question and the title of this post. It is obvious why they did not have formal hespedim for Rav Shteinman (although they did note his passing). Your real question is why they chose to be maspid Rav Aurbach - despite that they don't make hespeidim.
I believe that they have a great reason. It seems that you just don't agree with their reasoning.
... said the person who knows little to nothing of that community.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand what you mean by "something else," and I never suggested that the only way he could let his talmidim know of his opinion is through holding hespedim.
ReplyDeleteI looked it up again, and although he says that it is possible for one's status as a Jew to be lost, I am not 100% sure that it owuld apply to the lost Spanish Jews (though I think it would). It is printed in the Machon Yerushalyim Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim siman 39.
ReplyDeleteGood questions; I don't know in which precise scenarios he owuld apply it.
ReplyDeleteI did not indicate otherwise. I agree that, largely speaking, those mosdos that held hespedim for RALS and not RSA did so because they held the former to be the leader of the Litvish Torah world, and not the latter.
ReplyDeleteThere was a time when the Misnagdim had a single leader, and they followed (or manufactured) Daas Torah. However, those days are gone - and there are various leaders in dispute now. Unfortunately they are becoming more like Hassidim.
ReplyDeleteIt's clear that RSZA supported heter m. everyone knows this. Rav nevenzahl was his chavruta, a big Zionist.
ReplyDeleteRav Shach designated Rav Elyashiv as his successor.
ReplyDeleteYou missed the point. How Psak that the Kenesset is minus and apikorsus clearly demonstrates in addition to a lifetime of evidence that he was completely and entirely opposed to Zionism and everything associated with it. As demonstrated by his Kenesset Psak.
ReplyDeleteThat Litvaks and Chasidim are becoming unified with achdus and becoming closer to each other and more like each other is a very big positive and most beautiful and very fortunate.
ReplyDeleteMay it continue going in that direction until Moshiach comes!
It's a secular place. If you go to a police station it's also a place of minus. That didn't stop Rav shternbuch calling the Zionist police when he got lost in an Arab town. Rav elyashiv spent many decades in Zionist organisation. His ppsak was not eveeven taken seriously by his own party, who still work there . Questions were raised at the time whether he was too old to think clearly anymore. BTW he called the rabbanut the reishit tzmichah of the Sanhedrin, when he worked there under Rav herzog ztl PhD.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4258019,00.html
ReplyDeleteRabbi Steinman likely to succeed Rabbi Elyashiv
Haredi-Lithuanian succession was already being discussed with two leading contenders: Rabbis Auerbach and Steinman, but latter's connections put him in lead
that's a positive interpretation, well done!
ReplyDeleteRav Henkin ztl, who was even greater than Rav Moshe ztl, although once opposed setting up the state, once it has been set up, he brings very harsh words indeed for opponents to the Medina:
ReplyDeletehttp://hirhurim.blogspot.co.uk/2005/05/religious-zionism-debate-v.html
As I've said before, Rav Henkin was a true Gaon, and even Reb Dovid Eidensohn shlita says the same thing.
never ever heard anyone claim he was greater than rav Moshe!
ReplyDeletehe was posek until Rav Moshe was accepted as THE POSEK
Your brother for one.
ReplyDeleteHis .father had praise for the tzahal, but he was the opposite.
ReplyDeleteMo, in cities like London, the frum kehilla , B'H, have organisations such as Shomrim, hatzolah, for self defense and emergency. This is a mitzvo.
ReplyDeleteWhy then do your learned rabbonim say it is illegitimate to have a military, to defend against armies and terrorist rodfim? Don't they know. Din rodef?
never heard him say that
ReplyDeleteHe said it in the context of the debate between Rav Henkin and Rav Moshe on annulment of marriages. He argued that Rav Moshe himself said that R' Henkin was greater than him. This was a couple of years ago, when he was writing about Gittin here and on his website. In any case, was R' Kotler "greater" than rav Moshe, etc. does it matter. Rav Henkin was Posek hador and gadol hador for a decade between Rav Kotler and Rav Moshe. that means he was one of the greatest leaders of the post-war era., and perhaps since it was 50 years before rav Elyashiv, he was much greater than the recent leaders.
ReplyDeletesecular leftists/rightists, labour unions etc do this all the time, it is called democracy bwana.
ReplyDeletebut rav henkin was unanimouslty replaced by the leading rabbis by rav moshe
ReplyDeleteThe Zionist Army was created to takeover land that Jews did not control.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, the Shalosh Savuous apply to Eretz Yisroel.
Jews had already bought land since the previous century (before the State). Arab violence was growing, so they formed defence groups, eg the Hagana. The land was approved by the San Remo convention and the Balfour declaration. The Ohr Sameach stated that the 3 oaths no longer were valid. A previous poster on here, Rav Michael AlKohen already stated that for the Arizal, the oaths were valid for 1000 years.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, Hiddushei Eddie states that you cannot make a vow to violate halacha, i.e. that is not a valid vow. The halacha states that one must rise up and kill the pursuer (rodef) before he attacks you. If land is a strategic issue, then it is part of the halacha to take the land. In any case, there is another mitzvah to conquer Eretz Israel. Again, you cannot make a vow not to fulfil this mitzvah. can someone make a vow not to do bris milah for example? Is such a vow valid?
because of old age and illness. Or did they accuse him of heresy?
ReplyDeleteRav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach personally attended protests against the Israeli/Zionist government when the government proposed or initiated negative actions or laws (i.e. attempting to draft girls) against the frum community.
ReplyDelete