Besides the hostility of the Dodelson's towards the Weiss family because Avraham Meir has not given their daughter a get - there are strong accusation by Dodelson supporters that the Weiss's are lying about Rabbi Greenwald's involvement to try and find a resolution of the crisis. A more polite version of this accusation is found on the Dodelson's website in the section refuting Weiss statements. The critical issues is whether the families were in negotiation with Rabbi Greenwald prior to Gital going to the New York Post and publicly shaming the Weiss family and Orthodox Judaism. She claimed she had no alternative to get her freedom. In response Rav Reuven Feinstein's son Rav David claims they were in the midst of negotiation with Rabbi Greenwald and thus Gital had no need for the interview.
Inititally I thought that Rabbi Greenwald would simply explain whether he thought the Weiss's were liars. In response to my questions in this matter I did receive a letter from him - but it just repeated what his third letter said without explaining the contradition with the first two letters He did not respond for my request for further clarification. Because the Weiss family decided not to get involved in a public debate, contrary to my expectation they did not issue a public rebuttal. Because of the continued sneering comments I am getting from Dodelson supporters - that not only accuse the Weiss's of dishonesty but also Rav Dovid Feinstein - I have decided to make the efforts to explain the matter. This explanation has not be reviewed or authorized by anyone - I take full responsibility for it. Rabbi Greenwald's 3 letters - full text
Rav Dovid Feinstein (Rav Reuven's son) letter
Rav Dovid Feinstein (Rav Reuven's son) letter
========================
The first two letters written by Rabbi Greenwald were on October 2013 and November 7th.
In the October letter he wrote the [3rd parties],
It's 4 months ago that both of you [3rd parties] asked that I serve as binding arbitrator ... and bring about a get. ... It is unfortunate that due to many legal conditions regarding binding arbitration the proposal that I become the binding arbitrator was not accepted....
In the November 7th letter he wrote to Rabbi Weiss:
I want to make it clear that I appreciate the fact that you and Avrohom Meir agreed to the proposal I had suggested on Oct 15 so that the get could be given without delay. The Weiss and Dodelson familes came to me in June 2013 asking me to undertake this process. Since then I have consulted with the families, their advisors and outside experts, which led to my carefully considered proposal. You accepted my proposal provided it included 2 provisions....Once the proposal was accepted by the Weiss family, I advised the Dodelsons of your acceptance. I was informed that they didn't accept my proposal and I'm still waiting to hear from them of a counter proposal. I believe that once I have both proposals in hand, some compromise can be worked out so that this tragic situation can be resolved.
We learn from these letters
1) 3rd parties asked Rabbi Greenwald to serve as binding arbitrator
2) Legal conditions made the proposal of binding arbitration unacceptable [and not because the parties refused]
3) Both the Weiss and Dodelson familes came to Rabbi Greenwald and asked him to undertake this process.
4) Rabbi Greenwald put in a lot of effort consulting with the families, their adisors and outside experts.[which the Dodelson's fully participated including having their lawyer evaluate the proposals]
5) Rabbi Greenwald drew up a proposed solution which was accepted by the Weiss family [end of October 2013]
6) The Dodelson's didn't accept the proposal
7) Rabbi Greenwald was expecting a counterproposal.
8) The Dodelson's did not offer a counterproposal but Gital went to the NY Post and gave her interview in the beginning of November – in which she claimed she had no other option for obtaining the Get.
It is obvious that what these letters say is in total agreement with the assertions of Rav Dovid Feinstein and Rav Reuven's son Rav Dovid. Thus those who have claimed that the Weiss's are liars and that Rav Dovid was less than honest regarding Rabbi Greenwald's involvedment are clearly wrong
1) Rav Dovid Feinstein wrote:
"As Rabbi Greenwald's letter attests, both families agreed to come before him for a decision to resolve this matter Therefore, Avrahom Meir cannot be considered a mesarev or a me'agen." [This was not a claim of binding arbitration but as a mediator]
2) Rav Dovid Feinstein (son of Rav Reuven) wrote:
Mrs. Dodelson, Saki, was actually the one around yomim noraim time this year, that reached out to my wife, to ask what we can do to get the process back on track.Around Chol Hamoed Succos, I saw a chance. Avrom Meir Weiss reiterated clearly to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, (and signed the document), that he would accept unconditionally the ruling of Ronny Greenwald, who was accepted to be the binding arbitrator. (Even if he does not like, or agree with the decision, he will accept it.} He made it clear (in writing), that he would accept the arbitration, and a get would be given forty five days after the decision is entered into court, so as the other side, the Dodelsons, cannot appeal. At that time, a get will be given.
The arbitration started in May. It stalled for five months, but Boruch Hashem it was restarted on Oct. 15 2013. According to Ronny Greenwald, even though the Weiss's responded in time, before the deadline Sunday the 20th of Oct. and it's not clear to me if and when the Dodelsons responded, the Weiss's, even today, are still accepting Ronny's decision, and will abide by his words as a non partial binding decision, and Avrom Meir is still willing to give the get, as stated above. [...]I do not know who is behind the newspaper articles, and demonstrations that are going on while arbitration are still in progress,( to me it seems counterproductive). Also, I have no idea what can be said about the Chilul Hashem. Whoever's fault you want to say it is, how can we let the Kovod Shamayim be lowered like this? Does it make a Difference who's fault this is?
[This letter says that only Avrohom Meir accepted in writing that Rabbi Greenwald proposal was binding. It is important to note that while Rabbi Feinstein uses the term arbitration he apparently means mediation. Rabbi Feinstein objected to the Dodelson's going to the newspapers and having demonstrations when mediation is going on. Mediation had in fact been going on and Rabbi Feinstein assumed - as did Rabbi Greenwald - that even though they didn't like the proposal of Oct 15 they would come back with a counteroffer.
Thus apparently there is no problem or inconsistently between these two letters and the view of the Weiss/Feinstein family and the comment of Rav Dovid Feinstein.
Third letter from Rabbi Greenwald:
However Rabbi Greenwald wrote a 3rd letter on November 11, 2013 which seems to contradict his first two letters. This letter was apparently written to the Dodelsons or their lawyer. It was posted on the Dodelson's website click here- refuting Weiss statements which also incorrectly summarizes Rav Dovid Feinstein's (Rav Reuven's son) view as:
What was the purpose of this letter? The 3rd letter says in part:
Third letter from Rabbi Greenwald:
However Rabbi Greenwald wrote a 3rd letter on November 11, 2013 which seems to contradict his first two letters. This letter was apparently written to the Dodelsons or their lawyer. It was posted on the Dodelson's website click here- refuting Weiss statements which also incorrectly summarizes Rav Dovid Feinstein's (Rav Reuven's son) view as:
Rabbi Dovid B. Feinstein put out a statement explaining the Weisses’ current position. This is the gist of his statement:Rabbi Greenwald wrote this letter immediately after the NY Post interview with Gital was released. He also fell and broken a number of bones and was suffering from strong pain and was on heavy medication. He also reported that he was inundated by calls and emails demanding an explanation of his position and he said he could not take it any more.
1. The two sides accepted Ronnie Greenwald as binding arbitrator
2. The arbitrator rendered a decision
3. The Weisses accepted the decision
4. The Dodelsons rejected it
5. Hence, the Get is on the table and the Dodelsons are unreasonably refusing to take it
What was the purpose of this letter? The 3rd letter says in part:
Rabbi Greenwald's letter clarification letter to me[...] 3rd parties asked me to offer my services to the Weiss Dodelson Families to serve as Binding Arbitrator for their disputes...I was unable to set up such an arbitration format and the parties never agreed to my serving as Binding Arbitrator.I have since then tried to step forward as a mediator. In this effort too I never received any agreement from the parties to serve as a mediator. This leaves their disputes as they were prior to my efforts. While I may cointinue to try to mediate, I am doing so strictly on my own initiative and not at the request or with the consent of the parties. I regret if my previous letter of Nov. 7th created the mistaken impression that the parties had ageeed to my role as either Binding Arbitrator or mediator.
I wrote to Rabbi Greenwald regarding this third letter On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 3:34 AM,
I am writing a response to this letter and would like your inputI received the following response:
Will you please confirm that his letter is genuine and accurately reports the facts.
If it is genuine do you have any comments that you would be willing to make public that might repair the severe damage this letter caused to the credibility not only of the Weiss-Feinstein families but to Rav Dovid Feinstein, shlita himself?
From: Ronnie Greenwald
Date: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: Retraction letter
To: Daniel Eidensohn
=============I am sending you a letter which I sent to R Zlotowitz of Artscroll and R Aron Kotler in Lakewood. You and your readers should know that both of them have unceasingly dedicated themselves to assisting me to resolve the situation so that a get could be given. They were always available to help. I ask you Rabbi Eidensohn to only publish my letter to them if you feel that it de-escalates the hostility to these revered families and their friends.Rabbi Eidensohn,Below are my comments:It is also critical to note that my respect and reverence for the gadol, Rav Dovid Feinstein Shlita, has not been diminished one iota. I regret that my letter about my efforts as mediator may have allowed the impression that my role was sanctioned by both families thus leading to confusion.
Dear Meir and Aron,
You, Meir, and you, Aron, know that I consider you both among my closest and smartest friends, who have achieved amazing things in your lifetimes. When the two of you agreed that I would be a good mediator, shaliach, askan, arbitrator or whatever word you want to use, I accepted that awesome responsibility because after meeting both families I believed that a resolution was achievable. The last thing that I wanted to happen was that any comments I made would lead to newspaper articles, blogs, batei din and machlokes, and bigger machlokes.My role was to make peace. The last thing I wanted was to increase hostility and animosity among two of the most highly revered families in klall Yisroel and in klall Yisroel, as well. I have therefore decided that from now on I will not take phone calls on this subject, even from my dear friends Meir and Aron since it has caused me terrible pain. I love you guys and respect you guys but you must give me some peace for a little while. I am sharing this note with the Weiss and Dodelson family and my family as well.
Sorry but we must all move on.Best,Ronnie
PS If you do post this, please include my preliminary remarks.
=================[to be continued]
in new york state (as in most / all states) a couple cannot arbitrate custody. if they do, it is legally unenforceable. a judge / court will make its own decision (though they prob would give it great "deference").
ReplyDeletethus, such a matter would be legally problematic, as you state above in r greenwalds letter of october.
also, big diff between mediation and arbitration : arbitration is NOT binding, by definition. also, anything discussed / said in the arbitration is not admissable in future court proceedings.
its pretty clear that the dodelsons intend to go to court in the future to undo the visitation, to cut it down substantially (assuming there no money issues, which is what is being claimed right now.) otherwise, what do they have against a legally unenforceable arbitration / mediation / din torah?
also, most dinei torah are really just mediation, not arbitration. dayanim prefer that, somewhat like they prefer "pshara" vs "din".
A couple can come to court and state they've both agreed to a custody arrangement. They can then present to the court the custody arrangement that the mediator or beis din ruled. The court is very unlikely to reject a custody arrangement that both parents advise the court they've agreed to and accepted.
Delete"in new york state (as in most / all states) a couple cannot arbitrate custody" - This is false. I suspect you are spreading misinformation here in a way that benefits the Dodelsons.
DeleteIt may be true that if one party rejects the arbitration decision for good cause, the judge might vacate it, but if both parties accept the arbitration and simply submit a (reasonable) settlement agreement or stipulation to the court, why wouldn't the court accept it? Courts generally encourage alternative dispute resolution.
"arbitration is NOT binding" - I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. Mediation is not binding.
correction: in "big diff" para, should read mediation, not arbitration.
Deleteemes leyaakov -- arbitration, if even agreed to in front of a judge in open court, etc, is not binding for three items: custody (visitation is considered part of custody), child support, and abuse issues. (problem is that batei din prefer to make a property settlement reflecting custody / child support decisions. in effect, the property settlement will be enfoerceable, the custody / visitation / child suipport will not be enforceable.)
despite what many dayanim try to tell litigants.
a party can tell a judge "i changed my mind", even after the arbitrator's decision is published, with no penalty. no good cause needed.
if both parties present a final custody decision as an agreement, that will be accepted by a judge, though judges reserve the right to rule otherwise. (like ben torah states)
if there is a clause stating education / yeshiva decisions or other decisions to be arbitrated / decided by rabbi so and so (or psychologist so and so) it is completely unenfoceable. (these are common clauses, but completely unenforceable)
and in this case, the wife seemingly will not agree to such a clause.
MiMedinat HaYam
DeletePlease rewrite your entry as it is important to understanding the issue at hand and I will replace your original entries
My point is that both the husband and wife must agree to utilize beis din for ALL matters including custody, and then when beis din rules present b"d's decision to family court as the "agreed" to custody and property arrangements that the two of them agreed to.
DeleteOf course this requires both of them present it to the secular judge as an agreement. And it is both their halachic duty to do so and live by the halachic and beis din decision.
This still reflects some confusion between mediation and non-binding arbitration. A mediator is someone who facilitates negotiation between the parties on their own agreement. It is the parties trying to negotiate with the help of the mediator who may suggest things the parties might agree on or propose, but who does not attempt to offer his own resolution of the problem. His goal is to offer suggestions that might be acceptable to the parties, not to insert his own view of what is fair. And there would seem nothing particularly dishonorable about either party rejecting an offer with or without a counter proposal, depending on whether they see further negotiation as likely to be productive. A non-bonding arbitrator hears both sides, proposes what the arbitrator considers a fair solution which the parties are free to accept, reject or agree to use as a basis for further negotiation. The non-binding arbitrator is supposed to In binding arbitration the parties agree in advance to accept the arbitrator's decision.
ReplyDeleteIf I understand correctly what you wrote, it seems people asked R. Greenwald to arbitrate, but he was unable to secure an appropriate arbitration agreement, so he didn't. He then tried to mediate, apparently (second letter) either formally or informally with at least some cooperation from both parties and offered a suggestion which was accepted (with changes) by the Weiss family but rejected by the Dodelson's. Judging from his third letter I would guess that this mediation was informal.
I do think that R. Feinstein's letter was at least misleading, perhaps unintentionally, in the use of the word "arbitration." That suggests that the Dodelson's rejected a proposal that was considered fair by a party whom the principals had presumably agreed was objective. On the other hand, if he was mediating, rather than arbitrating, he was chosen not necessarily because the parties considered him objective but because the thought he might be helpful, and his proposal at least should have been put forth because he thought the parties might accept it rather than because it was what he considered a fair resolution.
If Feinstein claims that AMW signed an agreement of some sort, let him produce that paper. Let it also be verified by Weiss's attorney as real, so that he doesn't just do it today. If he can't do that, it's pretty clear who is being less than truthful.
ReplyDeleteDon't see a claim of "signed" agreement...
DeleteDT, you have lost the plot on this saga. The reason that the get has still not been given is because Weiss relies on misguided people like yourself for support. One thing I can tell you that it will not help in the long run because sooner or later the Yeshiva of Staten Island will get the message that they they should distance themselves from the Weiss family because if not they will be badly hurt by the public fury that is developing here.
ReplyDeleteThe mistake you are making is that you are analysing this from an intellectual stand-point. Questions like is he right, is she right, is there any circumstance where you can withhold a get are purely theoretical. What counts to the public is one thing only and that is who is the victim.
Nobody but misguided people like yourself see Weiss as the victim of Dodelson. What they see is a recalcitrant husband who is holding a woman against her will. As to the money from the legal fees - Weiss brought that on himself. He could have easily agreed to go to a Beis Din.
DT, if you want to see this sad story come to a conclusion quickly then you should today withdraw your support for Weiss. He needs to give the Get. It is only going to get worse for him the longer he holds out.
Public sentiment is irrelevant as to how the Yeshiva will react. They will react solely how they determine halacha says to. Even if that is against how the street feels.
DeleteWeiss has no halachic obligation to give a Get.
DeleteWeiss's child was kidnapped. He is the victim. Given the way he has been treated until now, if he gives in to the aggressors who demand that he do what he has no obligation to do, it is likely that he will be treated even more viciously in the future.
DeleteFred thank you for your advice. However I really don't think that my involvment is the factor that is preventing Gital received a Get. I think in fact my involvement is increasing the likelihood that she will receive it soon. I also don't see that the PR campaign which is directed at goyim, non religious Jews and liberal religious Jews - is helping the Dodelson's cause.in the yeshiva circles
DeletePublic sentiment is irrelevant as to how the Yeshiva will react. They will react solely how they determine halacha says to. Even if that is against how the street feels.
DeleteIf the yeshiva loses donors over the bad publicity, then they will care.
Yitz: Chareidi Yeshiva donors are not known for being big feminists.
DeleteThis post is truly a hodgepodge of guesses and misleading quotes (i. e., use of emphasis in the quote that does not appear in the actual letter).
ReplyDeleteEven more glaring is your attempt to dissect the initial letters as if they are a Tosfos or a Rashba. If anything, I wouldn't believe for a moment that Rabbi Greenwald planned to have his letters so dissected. However, the third letter was written AFTER everything hit the fan. I would expect he was MORE deliberate with that final letter than with the others.
I'm not clear what you are trying to prove with this post. In fact, I would say that this one is a solid example of שב ואל תעשה עדיף.
WHO IS THE DODELSON MYSTERY MAN ?
ReplyDeletePardon asking a silly question: From the Dodelson side one hears a lot about Gital and her mother Saki who is reputedly a very big CEO of her own big company, but where is Mr/Reb/Rabbi Dodelson in all of this? Why is HIS voice never heard? Does anyone know anything about him? Does he have a voice in his own family? Is he more modern, balebatish, farmfrummed, or does he exist at all? Does he have a say in this dispute? Does he let his daughter and wife do "all the talking" -- while he is doing what exactly -- playing golf, or perhaps learning a daf or giving a shiur, because right now, like the saying goes he's like "Nero" who "played the fiddle while 'Rome' burned"? (Chazal say Nero became a Ger in the end when he saw how fearless the Jews were in their defiance of Rome -- so there is always hope no matter how bad things may seem.)
So, really where is Mr. "unknown" (he is so mysterious no one knows his name) Dodelson, who sits back as his daughter becomes a proverbial pyromaniac setting the Aguda world in America on "fire" getting Gedolim to attack each other, granting interviews to the trashy media, and his beloved wife Saki, the mastermind who pays for all the baloney ( hiring publicists!!!!, encouraging her daughter's spoiled brat behavior when she should really be spanking her for being such selfish JAP -- no better word for it) and who according to her LinkedIn page (see http://www.linkedin.com/pub/saki-dodelson/25/2/b27 ), was "educated" at "Tel Aviv University [and] The Hebrew University of Jerusalem" acts more like a college radical (you can almost hear the slogans "burn the bra" "down with all male chauvinist pigs" "impeach the president" "release all political prisoners" etc -- not your typical Bais Yaakov behavior, thinking or chinuch, more a like an Israeli Sabra lady who knows her ways around the cut-throat corporate world.
Who made the shidduch between Gital's parents? What was the father doing at the time he met Saki, what hashe done until now? What can and SHOULD he be doing to stop his daughter's and wife destructive shenanigans, get them to calm down, stop them from inciting the other side, and thereby get the get (good pun) that you want and be done with it once and for all.
WILL THE REAL MR/REB/RABBI DODELSON PLEASE STAND UP, AND ACT LIKE A MAN AND FINALLY HELP TO PUT OUT THE FIRES THAT ARE SETTING THE YESHIVA WORLD IN AMERICA AFLAME THAT HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTER ARE DOING LIKE TWO "HAPPY ARSONISTS"!
PLEASE HELP STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Many of us have been thinking the same, is there a MR? and if so, Where? is his mouth chained close and WHY?
DeleteQuestions, Questions, Questions....:
ReplyDeleteWHO ARE THE DODELSONS???
WHO KNOWS THE FAMILY???
IS THERE A "YICHUS TREE" THAT SHOWS THE WHOLE MISHPOCHA???
WHAT DOES "PAPA" DODELSON DO? WHERE IS HE FROM? WHO KNOWS HIM? WHO ARE HIS REBBEIM? IS HE A LEARNED MAN OR IGNORANT OF JEWISH LAW? HE MUST EITHER BE A FOOL OR VERY SMART TO BE IN A "POWER-MARRIAGE" TO HIS WIFE SAKI, RAISE A JAP LIKE GITAL AND PUT UP WITH HER SPOILED BRAT ANTICS. HE LIKES HIS DAUGHTER TO GO TO RUTGERS LAW SCHOOL (SHE COULDN'T DO SOMETHING MORE CONVENTIONAL?). IS THAT THE NEW TREND FOR BMG FAMILIES NOW???
WHAT KIND OF MARRIAGE ARRANGEMENT DOES "PAPA'' DODELSON HAVE WITH HIS SUPER-CEO HARD-DRIVEN WIFE SAKI HAVE ??? HOW HAVE THEY RAISED ALL THEIR KIDS???
HOW MANY SIBLINGS DOES GITAL HAVE AND WHERE DO THEY LIVE??? WHAT DO THEY ALL DO AND ARE THEY ALL HAPPILY MARRIED??
WHAT IS THE TRUE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE DODELSONS AND THE KOTLER FAMILY OF BMG???
BEING THAT SAKI DODELSON IS SO RICH, HOW MUCH CHARITY DOES SHE AND HER FAMILY GIVE TO BMG???
WHO HAVE THEY BOUGHT OFF???
HOW MANY OF THE RABBIS WHO HAVE SIGNED ON TO SUPPORT THE DODELSON'S ALLEGATIONS HAVE RECEIVED DONATIONS FROM THE DODELSONS OR FROM PEOPLE CONNECTED WITH THE DODELSONS???
That's what they teach us in yeshivas not to be afraid and to ask good kashyes (questions) and hopefully one get get good terutzim (answers). Otherwsie we are going like lambs to the slaughter being led by the likes of two warring kids from Dodelson and Weiss families (I am impartial and will also critique R Reuven Feinstein/Weisses, like why are they such money grubbers? -- look at all the catastrophe it can cause. Marrying money can be like swallowing a poison pill leading to a living hell that you are now experiencing.)
E V E R Y O N E, yes, absolutely E V E R Y O N E, MUST STOP THIS UTTER MADNESS AND BRING THIS DISGRACEFUL PUBLIC BRAWLING (not just by Jewish standards but by ANY standards of human decency) TO CLOSURE ONCE AND FOR ALL AND BRING SHALOM AL YISROEL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good Shabbos !
Your mudslinging will bring shalom?
DeleteWow. Does anyone think that us poor shlubs who sympathize with Reb Reuvain and Reb Dovid are not sending in the checks? I think that everyone who thinks that two fine GEDOLIM are being subdued and their piskei halachah are being called at best NOT DAAS TORAH--send in a check for any amount and say what you feel. I don't think there are spies that will report back to the ....... and black-ball (hat) you.
ReplyDeleteThere address is Yeshiva of Staten Island
Address: 1870 Drumgoole Rd E, Staten Island, NY 10309
Phone:(718) 356-4323
Also I think it would be a good idea to call at least and show them that they have support. If you are scared that you will be black-balled by the black-hats send a $20 in a plain envelope. OUTRAGED IN NY
Recipients and Publicity,
ReplyDeleteWhen you answer all your important question (all of which aren't that hard to find out) it is important to add one more Kashya to your list that we educated Benei Torah need to ask.
How many of these facts did the Weiss family know before they willingly did the Shidduch? If they did know them & proceeded anyway, obviously they aren't chesronos, if they didn't know them, how can they be so negligent in allowing their beloved son to marry someone with so many horrible open questions?
@ Recipients and PublicityNovember 22, 2013 at 8:38 AM
DeleteVehinei emshal lach mashal.
Seems the arrangements that this mighty Amazon lady has, that her Husband can study Torah for life, quietly in the background, while she be MASHBIR VESHALIT bechol ha'aretz calling the shots. I can only picture that AMW was offered to be able to study Torah for life, and Queenie Bee will provide the HONEY. Since AMW wanted to be noeh doresh vegam naeh mekayem in living a Torah way of life, not only in the books, the Queenie Bee buzzed, ZZZZZZZ', no way Jose, you no eh' make eh' the money, you no eh' make eh' the rules, lekayem ma sheneemar Keimah, Kebitah. Since Kvod haTorah is not made as to be a door mat, AM said, lo meuktzeich velo miduvsheich, tni li arba meot kessef mi haBizwax shellach, lefatzot al kaspei D'eorchei dinei letzaaro shel abba, vegam ereh et bni utchi ruchi, nafshi venishmoti, veyikatev lach kitreisar shitin desefer krisus kesherin, lah-lishma legite degital leget piturin , kenaeh liyihudaeh, kach valech, ubli shum tzaar vanezek klall uklall bechashmalei prodin demizda'azin et kol haolam kulo, alim, shotin veakrabim asher yaniu amot hasipim, kehanei inshei delo maalei shekorin Epstein Bar & Goon Squad & Racketeering Squad & Co. L.L.P., et al, vehakol yavo al mekomo beShalom, and you can be free as a Queenie bee can ever be. Vezehu pitron hachalom, Veim tirtzi, en zu agaddah. 'ZZZZZZZZZZZZ........ and you are on your way. uvo letziyon goel
And to you my friend , you are so confused November 22, 2013 at 2:58 PM, vegam confused kol yemei hashana, that it ain't even funny. Ever heard of kemasneh al ma shekosuv B'torah? vezu makeh asher lo kosuv 'Btorah. Yisschar uZevulun IS Kosuv B'torah.
Here is the important fact:
ReplyDeleteThere was never an arbitration agreement. Discussions about arbitrating are not submission to arbitration and without that agreement, Rav Dovid's assertion is untrue. I think both sides hoped that he would be able to solve the problem and they worked with him to do so but they did not agree to submit to his jurisdiction. Thus, AMW is still mesarev ledin.
Rav Dovid obviously disagrees with you understanding
DeleteRabbi Greenwald wrote "When the two of you [R' Zlotowitz and R Aron Kotler] agreed that I would be a good mediator, shaliach, askan, arbitrator or whatever word you want to use, I accepted that awesome responsibility because after meeting both families I believed that a resolution was achievable."
DeleteGiven that, perhaps the following thinking explains Rav Dovid's psak:
In this letter, Rabbi Greenwald appears to me to be clarifying (thoroughly but with great deference) the facts underlying Rav David's psak. Several comments above have noted that even if the Dodelsons had agreed to either mediation or arbitration, the resulting resolution might not have stood in the divorce court. That cannot have been news to a posek of Rav Dovid's experience; something similar must surely have crossed his desk before.
If that is correct, he must have considered the precise nature of the arrangements (or lack thereof as clarified by R' Greenwald) to be less relevant to the question of being mesarev ledin than the fact that the matter was under serious and active discussion by Avraham Weiss.
AMW was never a mesarev ledin since he never agreed to the jurisdiction of the beis din that issued that siruv. He gave a borer for another beis din and thus was only subject to zabla.
Deleteactually, reports are that mr dodelson is the one who wrote / arranged the heter MR for RMK. if so, he must be some sort of talmid chacham (or peerhaps just a "macher")
ReplyDeletenevertheless, the point stands -- where is the the senior dodelson in this publicity seeking case?
I must be stupid or something, because I don’t get it! (no pun intended)
ReplyDeleteAccording to the comments on this blog, Avraham Weiss refuses to give his ex-wife a get until she pays him $350,000 cash money.
According to this blog, Weiss also won’t give her the get unless she also agrees to a child custody agreement that is better than what Avraham Weiss can get in a civil court.
What does the ex-wife’s mother’s MBA have to do with anything?
What difference does it make what the ex-wife’s father does or whether he went to yeshiva?
What difference does it make if they “almost” went to arbitration? (I really don’t understand how a beis din can decide a dispute unless all the parties have signed a shtar birur!)
It seems to from this blog that Weiss is demanding his ex-wife pay him $350,000 and give him better custody.
When you drag in all this crazy, irrelevant stuff about what school the ex-wife’s mother got an MBA at, you create the appearance that you are trying to distract people from the only two questions - $350,000 and custody.
It seems clear to me: Pay $350,000 and Weiss gives her the get!
From this blog, it appears that Weiss demanded $350,000 long before anyone said anything about arbitration or mediation.
So what in the world could Rabbi Greenwald's letters have to do with Weiss refusal to give his ex-wife a get?
According to this blog, if the ex-wife pays, she gets get! The rest is misguided commentary.
Am I wrong?
I agree - it seems quite simple. Weiss wants to use the get as a trump card to get what he lost in secular court, plus a healthy profit.
DeleteThe following link may help explain some of your confusion:
Deletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-role-of-mechon-lhoraah.html
Part 1 of Must Be Stupid said..."I must be stupid"
DeleteRaP: You are obviously VERY stupid, or more likely deliberately acting dumb or just a "publicist" for the Dodelsons, as will be shown now.
"...What does the ex-wife’s mother’s MBA have to do with anything? What difference does it make what the ex-wife’s father does or whether he went to yeshiva?"
RaP: First of all, she is NOT the "EX"-wife because NO get (divorce according to Jewish Law) has been given. For someone who "puns" about a "get" you sure know how to ignore the fact that the fight centers around a still-to-be-given-kosher-get and that the Dodelsons are "holding up" (GOOD PUN) their daughter from getting that get from still current husband al pi halacha, regardless of what transpired in secular courts. Now that we have established that you (whoever you are) have no respect for Torah facts, in any case you are reducing this fiasco to a simple monetary struggle -- which it has long ceased to be as it has taken on the ugly face of a titanic global struggle between most of the known Litvish Roshei Yeshiva in America.
Basically it's everyone versus the ENTIRE Feinsten clan, which now is just a case of bullying and seeing what it is that has them all so riled up against the underdogs, and the REAL underdogs here are not the Gital-Dodelsons because they have all the Roshei Yeshiva in their pockets thanks to Mummy and Daddy Dodelson's BIG$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, compared to the Feinsteins-Weisses who all they have now is the good name of their family name and a middling yeshiva on Staten Island and a toehold in Manhattan, PLUS (the big one) the status of Rav Dovid Feinstein senior one of America's and the world's leading POSKIM.
Now how does a puny young woman like Gital Dodelson get to be such a famous "celebrity" and hold forth with appearances to the press, get articles about her published, with her own "publicist!!!, slam the famous Feinsteins implicitly with impunity, set up a deluxe blog with all the bells and whistles in her favor, and have all those Roshei Yeshiva signing for her??? Good question no??? What is she Joan of Arc or the new "Sarah Schenirer ??? -- neither actually because she talks dirty and sounds like she needs her mouth washed out with some soap given the Torah giants that vouch for her.
You know, there are TENS of thousands young and not so you FRUM couples in divorce proceedings and NO Gadol takes the cudgels up for them like they are doing on behalf of Gital! Is it Gital looks? Is it her brains? Is it her charm? Is it her wealth? No none of that, it's simply the POWER of her parents that is holding her up and pushing her to do what she does. Most SMART people would say: Cut the other side some slack. If you want something use bait not brawn. You cannot beat another Jew into a proverbial pulp and then expect them to "turn the other cheek" like "a good Christian" lehavdil.
Sorry but Gital comes across as a simple spoiled brat (no better phrase for it) who has never been disciplined by her PARENTS. The typical rich kid who always got what they wanted because her parents had it all. Now comes along the real world and you have to learn to NEGOTIATE to be REASONABLE to be NICE to be SMART if you feel you are caught in a situation that you cannot get out of.
Part 2 of Must Be Stupid said..."I must be stupid"
Delete"...When you drag in all this crazy, irrelevant stuff about what school the ex-wife’s mother got an MBA at,"
RaP: It's not "crazy" it's trying to figure out what is behind such a disaster. Imagine saying it is "crazy" to try to understand the mentality of the doomed Titanic's captain.
You know you are so stupid it is not true. Forget about shidduchim where it's super true, but when a small child enters a cheder or yeshiva or bais yaakov the FIRST thing the menahalim do is to ask, in writing, the names of not just parents, but also ALL grandparents and where they daven and often much more. You see it is obvious they MUST ask such question and it is NOT crazy because you want to answer the basic question of MAH TIVO SHEL UBBER ZU ???
You don't want to let trouble into your mosad, same with with a true geirus, the Bais Din MUST question the motivations of the sincere ger to see if there are other hidden factors that may come to haunt the Jewish people, like fifth columnists, and if trouble does break out you have to go back and ask yourself a deeper question, like what type of parents and UPBRINGING bred such a boy AND girl.
The Weisses too are guilty of breeding a brat, too much of that "I am the gadol hador" syndrome that far too many kollel guys have and it is also stupid. So what you had here was a very combustible situation and hey guess what it exploded, it's surprising it doesn't happen more often, but in this case it did and what it has become is what they call a "HIGH PROFILE DIVORCE STRUGGLE THAT HAS BECOME VERY PUBLIC AND UGLY" and we must now all deal with that. That's the REALITY and it is NOT "crazy" to probe deeper into this mess to understand how and why and by whose hand, often HIDDEN CONTROLLING HANDS ATTACHED TO VERY LONG ARMS THAT ARE PULLING ALL THE STRINGS OF THE PUPPET/S like Gital, and HOW it got this far.
In any case, the Dodelsons could easily long ago have paid up the money, what's $350,000 for multi-multi-meag-millionaires to buy their daughter's freedom?
What if she were, for argument's sake lehavdil kidnapped, wouldn't they pay an even higher ransom to get her freedom???
Sure they would.
And about child custody, what nonsense are they spouting since every divorced couple knows that a fair deal is 50-50 and that from that starting point they can work out how it can best be implemented -- that is if both are reasonable.
Evidently the Feinteins and Weisses take their progeny seriously, they do NOT want to have one of the children/grandchildren and great-grandchild of Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT"L to be become HEFKER and a tinok shenishba mamash for all intents and purposes as the Dodelsons would wish.
That much should be obvious.
Part 3 of Must Be Stupid said..."I must be stupid"
Delete"you create the appearance that you are trying to distract people from the only two questions - $350,000 and custody."
RaP: Utter trash and stupidity! It is not a "distraction" to try to understand who the Dodelson parents and family are.
After all, the Feinsteins and Weisses are a PUBLIC RABBINIC family that has been known for decades and much is known about them and while they are not perfect, they are a "known commodity"
On the other hand NO ONE seems to know anything real about Gital's family except what her Mommy dearest says about herself on her OWN LinkedIn page (all typical CEO self-flattery and mega-ego and no inkling of Torahdikeit) and that they are able to get Gedolim to write strong letters to attack the Feinsteins and Weisses on their behalf and it is from that same source, from the rock that Gital is hewn and because it's now gone so public and viral and nuclear so to speak that to redress the balance the carefully guarded veil that hides the Dodelson family as their daughter runs around getting all the attention -- which would be impossible without them -- must be explored and then we will get to the bottom of the the stubbornness or better yet arrogance of Gital and her refusal to cut the Weisses-Feinsteins some slack and get her get, but instead persist with a "total annihilation strategy" that is now backfiring against them, and they know, and so do you, so stop acting stupid, stupid.
Finally, ALL sides are asked to COMPROMISE and LOWER YOUR PRIDE, and RAISE YOUR FLEXIBILITY quotient.
STOP THIS HORRIBLE MACHLOKES that is a curse for you and all of Bnai Yisrael and the Velt.
You have all made your points abundantly clear that you all hate each others' guts and if you could you would wipe each other out. But now that that is impossible and you will never achieve it, you must leave that way of thinking behind if you want the other side to see your point of view and WILLINGLY arrive at a Halachically acceptable settlement.
Cut out running to the papers, creating blogs and hiring publicist, getting reputable rabbis fired, causing mayhem and destruction everywhere in the Litvish Yeshiva Velt in America and who knows where else, as you can tell from what is happening it is a sword that can and does cut both ways and you will all face greater scrutiny as to who you are and how you operate because this is now a PUBLIC matter that affects a chunk of Klal Yisrael that wants peace and has no time for such childish outburst because there far more real and serious issues facing the Jewish people as you well know.
Stop stalling and negotiate in GOOD FAITH and remember that there is a God watching what you do and how you are doing it and who you are doing it to.
IF YOU CANNOT PUT OUT THE FIRE YOU HAVE IGNITED THEN IT WILL BURN AND BURN UNTIL IT WILL BE PUT OUT BY FIREMEN NOT OF YOUR CHOOSING.
Especially to the PARENTS and FAMILY of Gital, put your daughter/sister/ niece/cousin/etc in her place, or at least tone her down.
Gital is not impressing anyone really, and no one really cares about her "ten minute of fame" (that has gone on too long now) but rather, it is your responsibility to control this out of control bas yisroel, she is only disgracing you, or you will ALL be held accountable for your support and it will become public and clear who you are are to let her fight like this, there is nothing to be proud of by becoming the proverbial eight hundred pound gorillas in the room.
Let's try it out, have the Dodelson's write out the check (poorer familiies have paid more) and give AM more custody and date #1 can be set for Gital.
Delete"poorer familiies have paid more"
DeleteYou say this as if it were OK. Don't you see how scandalous this is?
@Recipients and Publicity:
DeleteI appreciate your agreement on the matter of whether Gital Dodelson is being held hostage, and the Dodelsons are being extorted to the tune of $350,000.
It seems the only matter of disagreement is whether these tactics are sanctioned by the Torah.
Part 1 of response to Richie Sevrinsky said: "@Recipients and Publicity: I appreciate your agreement on the matter of whether Gital Dodelson is being held hostage, and the Dodelsons are being extorted to the tune of $350,000."
DeleteRaP: AND -->you<-- ignore that the Dodelson's, with their rough-and-tough in-your-face counter-responses scorched Earth "fire the bums" tactics, have TOTALLY failed to win their daughter's freedom.
Instead the proverbial "noose" is now tighter around her neck as she struggles in vain to free herself and it is pathetic to watch, while her parents and family and bought-off rabbis are willing to have her twist in the wind and go through such suffering for FOUR years.
If it was the daughter of RATIONAL people they would surely have raised as much money to get her freedom ASAP and not tangle with one's enemies especially since they know the Halacha better than you, give them the money and run as fast as you can for your life, and work out reasonable visitation rights because one should not be so stupid to say that the great rabbis in my ex's family will "harm" my child. And in this case money is not the problem.
But there is also the factor of the child that the Dodelsons want all to themselves and that GITAL RAN OFF WITH which itself is against the Halacha because THAT MAKES HER B O T H A KIDNAPPER (in Jewish law a kidnapper is akin to a murderer!!!) in the eyes of not just her ex and she is also a moredes a REBELLIOUS wife who fled her marriage without informing her husband and evidently in the middle of marital therapy (what was she afraid of? that her problems would be revealed and she would have to admit her own human failings) because fleeing like that is deserving of its own serious sanctions and in civil law it is also questionable if she gets all the rights since it is not clear what exactly her husband was doing that she did not like (what she told the papers cannot be trusted because that may or may not be pure sensationalism and needs to be verified.)
You know something, you are so naive (of course, then again, you may be one of those publicists that the Doldelson's have hired) and you sound like a total SIMPLETON when you talk of divorces and a get in such simplistic terms when the reality is far more complicated.
Part 2 of response to Richie Sevrinsky said:
DeleteDon't you realize that in Talmudic Judaism EVERYTHING can be and is reduced to it's MONETARY value.
People, property and situations and much more, the whole notion of damages "nezikin" and how it plays out in secular court and bais din can and are summed up and REDUCED to monetary terms.
That's a reality you seem NOT to know about or perhaps just deliberately ignoring.
In this case, yes, it's obvious, one of the parties (for their own legal and Halachic reasons that they feel is justified and that they can obviously defend) is requesting a payment of a sum of money in order to grant a "release", whether it is 35 cents, 35 dollars or 35 million, is not the point, it is the reality that that is what one side is requesting in this legal and Halachic situation, and they are entitled to do that since a get is not just about getting a "quickie" divorce, it is part of a bigger picture of unraveling all the threads of a marriage between two upper-crust families, a matter that comes before a kosher bais din, and in that bais din the parties can and do enter into all sorts of negotiations as they would in secular court.
You seem to have the simplistic view that the bais din is just a rubber stamp to facilitate a get, when in reality the bais can take in the global situation of all factors if the need arises and in this case it has.
It does not help if one party short circuits the negotiations and the entire system by running to other rival batei din or rabbis they can hire to give a point of view they like to get "injunctions" and all sorts of self-serving "decrees" that the other side will not recognize, and this is true for either side, they must ALL enter into good faith negotiations under the aegis of the best neutral bais din when it becomes complicated like this. It is done and it can be done and hopefully it will be done very soon.
ANY marriage is NOT just the culmination of a romance that results "happily living after" it is ALSO a BUSINESS relationship.
Right under the chupa the Kesuba is read out loud and it is all about the "net worth" of the bride and the agreement of groom to support her. If they make other arrangements, like the wife supporting the husband in Kollel for ten years as is common in Lakewood-type marriages, then that is also part of the business deal.
There may be pre-nups, post-nups and no-nups, but the financial-monetary aspect of marriage is there.
There are "oral understandings" that are just as equally binding as written ones between a couple and their families. When two powerful dynasties "merge" as in this case, there are also co-concomitant POLITICAL issues, as in the marriage between two royal houses then questions of ownership of the realm, who is "senior" or "junior" for example, in the case of the Queen Elizabeth of England, her husband Prince Phillip is junior, while in the case of Prince Charles, his late wife Princess Diana was the junior and when they divorced the title of "princess" was taken away from her.
Where their is money and wealth involved this involves serious questions of assets and how they will be owned. Usually at this stage lawyers are needed because it gets very murky and complicated. But GOOD batei din could still with this if they were allowed to.
It should also be obvious that the same goes for a divorce when parties have to split their formerly common assets, that is why they go to court and bais din and they can either be AMICABLE or NASTY settlements.
Part 3 of response to Richie Sevrinsky said:
DeleteIn divorce cases, BOTH husband and wife and their families are seeking FINANCIAL SETTLEMENTS and AGREEMENTS about who gets to keep what and who pays what to whom.
It is no different in a get.
When you have complications each side may present claims and counter claims in court or in bais din. Expand your notion of what a bais din is and what it can take under its jurisdiction.
Finally, the really complicated part is what is the fate of children of divorcing parents (they will always be the final victims no matter what the arrangements, speak to any counselor or mental health expert) and children are after all human beings and cannot be "divided" as one would a an inanimate object.
That is where the concept arises of child custody, child support, visitation rights and the roles of professionals and spiritual leaders in mediating all this.
The Dodelson, by "simplifying" and in a sense "romanticizing" this as a 1+1=2 "equation" IN PUBLIC when it it is not that, are not doing themselves favors. In this case, the other side claims that it has incurred costs or legal fees (them's the facts no one change), and that is the way many cases are settled with one side or the other having to pay costs of the other side. Hey it's a bargain if you are generating millions of bucks and money is no objection and if you could have freed up your daughter four years ago.
Just how cruel can you be to your own child, when coughing up could allow them to get on with life, avoid the recrimination, running to the New York Post (of all the tabloids) and all the headaches of double-edged "ten minutes of fame" that will not be worth your while when you have better and bigger things to do, like get on with life.
And hey, you cannot keep or KIDNAP someone else's baby even if you are the mother, because the father of that baby is also a human being with his own attachments feelings and rights to HIS bay as well get your head around that, it's also as simple as 1+1=2.
So work on that and come up with a reasonable solution instead of raising hell and creating all this noise spinning your wheels and going nowhere fast.
"It seems the only matter of disagreement is whether these tactics are sanctioned by the Torah."
RaP: More simple talk from you. The Feinteins and the Weisses are NOT "less" aware or less committed to the Torah way of doing things than are the Dodelsons. This is obviously a complicated struggle involving two obstinate sides with neither side willing to give in.
Something must be done by ALL concerned ASAP to stop this tug of war taking place on a very slippery slope for all of them that will only land them all in even deeper dirt and mudslinging.
The Question is How Much The Dodulsons and other Rich People Close To The Kotlers and BMG Donated To Mechon Lehorah over the Years?
ReplyDeleteMechon Lehorah Does Not Just Operate as a Beis Din Like Bais Yosef or Tartikov, Mechon Lehorah is a Full Fledged Orginization with a Kollel To Support They Have Yearly Dinners and Parlor Meetings and go around to Rich People Soliciting Donations
You have a broken link. It should be:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.setgitalfree.com/refuting-weiss-statements.html
thanks - fixed it
DeleteAs a reader of this blog who has gained a great deal of respect for Rabbi Eidensohn as an intelligent, independent, and decent person, I am quite perplexed by his position on this case. Some questions:
ReplyDelete1) It is hard to know exactly under what conditions Weiss will give a get, since he hasn't publicly said, but based on reports as well as the "pragmatic resolution" proposed on this blog, it appears that he wants $350000 and a more favorable custody arrangement than was awarded to him in court. Is it always OK for a husband to withhold a get for leverage in financial and/or custody disputes, or is there something special about this case? If this case is somehow special, why?
2) If it sometimes OK for a husband to withhold a get for leverage in financial and custody disputes and sometimes not OK, who is supposed to decide when it is OK? Is this left up to the discretion of husband and his family? If so, I would note that this is a position that is very unfavorable to women generally, and I am curious whether any contemporary poskim endorse this view. If not, I would like to know what mechanism there is for deciding when the husband should give a get, since a siruv from a mainstream Beis Din is apparently not sufficient.
3) What possible claim does the Weiss family have on the Dodelsons' money? Is this $350000 Gital's money that she earned when they were married, or are they seeking a payout from her wealthy parents? There is a word in English for asking rich parents to pay large sums of money to secure their child's freedom, and it's not something one would ordinarily associate with the behavior of B'nei Torah.
4) Rabbi Greenwald's latest letter politely implies that Rav Dovid Feinstein's interpretation of his role may have been based on "confusion", which he blames on his own previous letter. Regardless, what bearing does the fact that various people were talking to Rabbi Greenwald and attempting to achieve a resolution have on A.M. Weiss' behavior in continuing to keep his wife an Aguna? If anything, the fact that the Dodelson's may have tried to negotiate through a mediator reflects positively on them, and doesn't absolve the Weiss side of its obligation to treat his wife with decency.
Finally, I would like to quote some wise words which I think sum up the situation very well.
"It doesn't take genius to realize he is not responding in appropirate fashion. He demanded custody of his son plus a large amount of money for granting the divorce.
...
Pardon my stupidity but I simply can not imagine any rational explanation for his behavior that conforms with Torah. Perhaps you can explain how a talmid chachom could justify having his wife be an aguna for... years?"
These words were written by the author of this blog, about a different case.
(Yes, there are differences between the two cases - the parts I redacted asked why the husband had been hiding for 2 years and why he refused to work with Bais Din or through his rabbonim; maybe there he was demanding full custody?; also that case dragged on at least 7 years. So Rabbi Eidensohn would presumably say that here Weiss is working with his rabbonim to try to resolve it. But I think the quote is nevertheless apt.)
Actually, RDF is standing by what he said. The issue is not about binding arbitration or moderating. The issue is that AMW had/has accepted a third party. As such, he cannot be considered a meagen or a mesarev. This is still his feeling as he was recently asked.
DeleteThe release of the second letter of RG has definitely confused the issue to me and you but not to him.
Furthermore, the side of halacha seems to finally shedding light on this issue. While we have all read or been regaled by all of Gital's future desires and we have all been appalled by what she has told us was a terrible life with her ex, these issues have little to do with halacha. Whether we think she was abused, is lying, is a woman of the night or just a misguided bais yaakov girl, Gital has done little to change the halacha or her plight. This seems to be coming out now as more and more Kollel yungerleit, possibly spurred on by the chilul hashem she created, have been attacking her "supporters" in both public and private. I know this because my husband has been present at one such case. Personally, I think she is the low of the low, but that is irrelevant.
My husband told me that his Rosh Hayeshiva could not argue the halachic rights of what was done to AMW's father and uncle or the yeshiva of SI. But his RH has held fast. So, I don't know what to tell you is a final answer. Just that I know the yeshiva world is fed up with the side of Gital. At least i am. However, her modern orth friends can help her. But I digress.
Bottom line, my husband and his chavrisah have confirmed the RDF still holds by his psak.
Thought you wanted to know.
The central question is NOT whether they were in negotiations before she went to the NYPost. The questions is whether they agreed to binding arbitration. That is the only way ala Rav Dovid Feinstein that he removes the seruv.
ReplyDeleteYour view is clearly at variance with Rav Dovid. Rabbi Greenwald mentioned at the beginning that it was clarfied - I assume by lawyers - that binding arbitration is not relevant in this case and yet the negotiations continued anyway. Rav Dovid is not removing the seruv - he says it doesn't apply anymore - even according to those who claimed it was valid. Of course to those who never viewed it as valid - negotiations weren't need to nullify it.
DeleteAnd how do you understand Rabbi Feinstein's lack of concern about his conflict of interest?
DeleteIt is the veracity of Rav Dovid's assertion that is under discussion. You can not cite Rav Dovid as evidence for that.
DeleteThere never was any valid seruv as the beis din that issued it was only accepted by one side and thus had no jurisdiction over the case. This is a case for zabla as requested by the litigants.
DeleteBen,
DeleteNobody agrees with you. Even Rav Dovid says that the seruv is nullified by agreement to arbitrate. He does not say that the seruv was never vaild - otherwise, there would be no need to agree to binding arbitration.
James, what Ben Torah said is a point made by everyone familiar with this case. The siruv was never valid. This point has been made from the day after the so-called siruv was issued. See the Weiss documents on this blog put up by Rabbi Eidensohn in July 2012.
DeleteDT,
ReplyDeleteI think you are working for the Dodelsons. No where does Reb Dovid, shlita, say a word about arbitration. His quote is:
As Rabbi Greenwald's letter attests both families agreed to come before him for a decision to resolve the matter. Therefore , Avrohom Meir cannot be considered a mesarev or a me'agen.
Greenwald never argued against this in his second letter. He doesnt deny that both families came to him. He (Greenwald) is the one who mixes in the arbitration. My husband explained this to me just now. He says it is known in all yeshivos that RDF is sticking to his words.
I am surprised that it took you so long to realize that I am a Dodelson supporter. But then in the same way I am a Weiss supporter. It really is time for this mess to be resolved.
DeleteI agree that Rav Dovid Feinstein was well aware of what Rabbi Greenwald was doing and of course he is sticking to his words since nothing new has been revealed.
Rabbi Eidensohn,i am asking this question not trying to be hostile,but just trying to understand,
ReplyDeletewhy are you putting this painful family fight on your blog ? and why are you so obsessed with it,
is it really any of our business ?,would it help matters by plastering this SCHMUTZ all over the internet? ,just trying to understand
Browser I appreciate your sincerity but am astonished by how naive and ignorant you are - not only of halacha but of the world.
DeleteI didn't initiate this debacle. But clearly Gital has fit to smear not only her husband and the Feinstein's, destroy the parnosa of his father and his uncle and create an incredible chilul hashem in her depiction of cruel and primitive Orthodox religion.
There is an elementary halachic obligation not to sit idly by when a fellow Jew is being destroyed - especially when he basically is refusing to defend himself.. The halachic misrepresentations, the ridicule of Yiddishkeit, the smearing of respected talmidei chachomim can not be allowed without a clear and strong response. Remaining silent indicates that I agree with the concerted media blitz orchestrated by a professional pr consultant.
It is obvious that the Weiss/Feinstein families are not giving in to this campaign. Left by itself this mess can continue for years. My contribution has been to encourage a quicker resolution
However if you have been following this blog through the many posts dealing with it - and you still don't know what I am talking about - I assume that this response isn't going to change anything..
My contribution has been to encourage a quicker resolution.
Delete================================================
Rabbi Eidensohn,are you serious? do you really believe that by plastering this private family feud on your blog would convince the antagonist's to resolve it quicker? me thinks'this is not the case' the real reason is,you want to attract clicks to you blog,and what better way than a real life frum jewish soap opera,
and by the way,i myself and hundreds of others had no idea about this sordid affair even though i live in brooklyn,it is only through your blog
did we learn about it,why you chose to call your blog "daas torah" is beyond me
browser: With the Dodelsons shedding Weiss' blood with their secular media campaign and slander, it is every Jew's obligation to defend the Weiss.
DeleteA get is truly a private matter and should be resolved by a competent entity along with it's rules and regulations al pi Torah Hakdosha. It was the mothers choice to spill this matter on the streets Through a PR, and X 2 B giving interviews to the goyim thereby causing a tremendous chilul hashem, to collect sympathy and shame AMW with family as Blackmail. AMW's family is and was not interested in a public debate at all, but have been arm twisted to do so lemaan kvod H' vetorato. As a consequence all these mechalelei hashem's lies have been uncovered, all false charges have been refuted and wish no more to continue. The Weiss'es owe us ZERO to reply, indeed, as the case stands, Machon along with the signatures have much to explain, and I won't hold my breath. I would love to give a small example to those that are reluctant to understand or under the disguise of such in order to drag this much further. If a hungry person approaches you and asks for some food, he agrees that you take him to a restaurant and have him served a full dinner, only to have it refused by him once they got there. Just because he has refused and remained hungry, would you then say that this offer never happened? Or they never even went to the restaurant? And that is exactly how they have lied through their teeth. Furthermore, the rishes went ad kedei kach that this PR has been disseminated while in midst of negotiations, sort of like jumping the gun. Only the Devil will advocate such atzat Achitofel in cahoots with ORA yimach shemom vezichrom. It is time to stop all these charges, and time to settle this matter the Torah way with someone competent in accordance with the privileges of the Shulchan Aruch of who has the right to call where and to whom, without involving the street. It is THERE where all matters are to be considered, not us, and these are the wishes of AMW and his family.
ReplyDeleteWhy should the Weis's have any shame? They should be proud of all the attention that they are getting for upholding Torah values.
Delete@ Yitz of November 24, 2013 at 12:08 PM
DeleteTrue, but only as a consequence to the initial alleged attacks. Elu hadvarim shehatzniut yafeh lahen, without quarreling J with J to begin with, let alone beGass uvchutzot Ashkelon, at the expense of Hashem veTorato, pen ta'aloizno benos hoarelois. ved"al
Perhaps someone will explain this to me. Rabbi Greenwald issued some type of decision. Obviously, this decision favored the Weisses more than the Dodelsons. Did Rabbi Greenwald just put in his 2 cents or was he actively involved in some way. I don't think he just came out of the blue sky because the argument from James and Foncused is that he wasn't "binding arbitration". Obviously, he wasn't a binding arbiter which we see from Rabbi Greenwald's own words. I see that Rabbi D Feinstein (great uncle) is not calling him a binding arbiter nor is he saying one must listen to his decision. He is saying that both families came to him. If the decision isnt final but he obviously has been involved, why won't the rabbis force both sides back into the room and let him finish. Obviously, the Weisses are willing to listen the obvious question is why the Dodelsons, who obviously have discussed this with him in some capacity, won't. The way I see this is that the Dodelsons DONT WANT THE GET. Therefore, the obvious question is why the rabbis are still backing them? Or do they?
ReplyDelete@DT
ReplyDeleteWhy do you continue to refuse to take Rav Greenwald's clarifications at face value? He has clearly and repeatedly said that his role was not sanctioned by both families.
This is not a Talmudic dispute between differing sources of Rabbi Yehuda when it is difficult to determine which came first, or in which context an ruling was made.
This is a forthright statement by a living individual, who wishes to dispel any confusion in his original wording.
It wasn't binding arbitration, since dodelson never signed as in the original plan. It could very well be, that it is not due to a final decision that R. G. already drafted up, only due to preconditions that Dodelson wanted to insert, and rejected by R.G. thereby aborted before full term. It is useless to keep on guessing and counterguessing on issues we have no privileges to stick our nose in to begin with. All this is only Atzat Yetzer HaORA ysv. Let it be executed by competent Rabbis al pi Torah, and the PR should stay out of it, for the good and benefit of all parties.
DeleteI am disappointed by this turn of events in this blog. I have read it for years and much admire the bravery of dear Rabbi E's willingness to take nuanced positions that may often be uncomfortable for a man in his position.
ReplyDeleteA few things are obvious:
1) This marriage is over and a therefore a get should be forthcoming, end of story. Any disputes about money and custody needs to be had without the husband using the get as leverage. It is disturbing to me that Rabbi E does not seem to even remotely hold this position, quite the contrary.
2) Whether the Dodelson family were right or wrong to go the secular press none of us are in a position to judge them since their daughter is being murdered daily, pshuto kamashmao, by having the fertile years of her life stolen from her. Her life is being held to ransom over money, and all of us would do anything needed to get a loved one out of that situation.
3) Just as in the cases of child abuse that are discussed here, the chilul hashem is not the publication of the victims complaints, but the acts that lead to the complaints.
4) The revelation from the arbitrator makes it clear that one side has certainly been deceptive over critical issues that effect this discourse.
5) The words of rabbonim, no matter what their pedigree, who are blatantly nogea badavar in the most fundamental way, are worse than worthless, and the absurdity that they were even issued could be argued to cast doubt on their own judgement in general.
I very much hope that this clear lapse of judgement is not due to Rabbi E's own personal opinions but is just due to his own personal connections and negois...I hope that he soon overcomes this nisayon and comes to his senses, since this case is not just about the couple anymore.
Voices, particularly from someone as influential and well regarded as the author as this blog, that seem to justify the use of a get to extort money and claw back defeats in arkaos, will only serve to embolden and normalize this type of behaviors in the yeshivishhe oilem, leading to even greater chilul hashem and more pain for many families.
I replied to the inaccuracies of your double-post below your duplicate post below.
DeleteI am disappointed by this turn of events in this blog. I have read it for years and much admire the bravery of dear Rabbi E's willingness to take nuanced positions that may often be uncomfortable for a man in his position.
ReplyDeleteA few things are obvious:
1) This marriage is over and a therefore a get should be forthcoming, end of story. Any disputes about money and custody needs to be had without the husband using the get as leverage. It is disturbing to me that Rabbi E does not seem to even remotely hold this position, quite the contrary.
2) Whether the Dodelson family were right or wrong to go the secular press none of us are in a position to judge them since their daughter is being murdered daily, pshuto kamashmao, by having the fertile years of her life stolen from her. Her life is being held to ransom over money, and all of us would do anything needed to get a loved one out of that situation.
3) Just as in the cases of child abuse that are discussed here, the chilul hashem is not the publication of the victims complaints, but the acts that lead to the complaints.
4) The revelation from the arbitrator makes it clear that one side has certainly been deceptive over critical issues that effect this discourse.
5) The words of rabbonim, no matter what their pedigree, who are blatantly nogea badavar in the most fundamental way, are worse than worthless, and the absurdity that they were even issued could be argued to cast doubt on their own judgement in general.
I very much hope that this clear lapse of judgement is not due to Rabbi E's own personal opinions but is just due to his own personal connections and negois...I hope that he soon overcomes this nisayon and comes to his senses, since this case is not just about the couple anymore.
Voices, particularly from someone as influential and well regarded as the author as this blog, that seem to justify the use of a get to extort money and claw back defeats in arkaos, will only serve to embolden and normalize this type of behaviors in the yeshivishhe oilem, leading to even greater chilul hashem and more pain for many families.
If a wife is halachicly wronging her husband in the divorce process, the husband has every halachic right to delay giving her the Get until she ceases her wrongful actions against him and reverses the damage she caused her husband.
DeleteHear hear....
DeleteAmen, Mr Feinshmecker!
DeleteI too have been a long-time reader of this blog and have come away depressed from these postings and the comments that follow.
Names like Daas Torah and Ben Torah and Recipients and Publicity (with his many words, all in bold type, and often in CAPS) personally attacking anyone who doesn't agree.
They are right that i do not know nearly the amount of Torah and halacha they do -- but, i come away wondering: Is this the same Judasim that i practice?
Mr. Feinshmecker, my humble advice would be for us to walk away from this blog before the ground opens up beneath it and accidentally swallows us up with the others.
It's der golus.
- Andrew
Boy are you a loon. Obviously an ORA supporter or a Dodelson.
DeleteA get is not given until all deals are worked out. If there is one thing we seem to know from this is that no side will give up its "power" in the interim.
Hopefully she won't have any more children until her hashkofas get straightened out a bit. Unless she is looking to have children out of wedlock.
Obvious drivel from an ORA/Dodelson supporter. The chilul hashem is completely on the Dodelsons and their supporters.
You obviously can not comprehend what you are reading. However, I can't make heads or tails out of Greenwald either. So, I will give you something there.
The rabbis are either all involved or all pasul in this story. Your call. One side isnt better than the other one.
The one thing I do know from this is that the Dodelsons are skipping lots of info. Weiss is the plaintiff they say but their docs show him as defendant even in the final custody. The BD is a sham. However, four years are enough. But, I started by thinking he was a control freak. Now I think she is bipolar. I would rather have the kid with the control freak. Don't you agree?
Clearly this dispute is NOT a simple fight over who should pay the hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal costs incurred by the Weiss'. If that's all it was, the dirt-rich Dodelson's would have long ago paid it and gotten over it. Instead the Dodelson's paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to wage a media campaign, hire the irreligious Shira Dicker as a public relations consultant on a halachic dispute, gone to all sorts of media, created Facebook pages, a highly slick freegiral website, gotten letters of support, etc. etc. Stuff that costs big bucks.
ReplyDeleteThe Dodelsons are already spending big bucks to wage their war against the Weiss'. So this is not simply a matter of them not wanting to pay and get over it. To the Dodelsons this is a honor war. Something they will fight to the death just for their pride. Even if Gital is the bloody loser whose body ends up lifeless on the ground, unable to remarry while she grows old and grey all lonely and all by herself with no husband ever by her side.
"1) This marriage is over and a therefore a get should be forthcoming, end of story. Any disputes about money and custody needs to be had without the husband using the get as leverage."
ReplyDeleteBut why do you say this, when the Halacha says otherwise? Don't orthodox Jews go by the halacha?
"It is disturbing to me that Rabbi E does not seem to even remotely hold this position, quite the contrary. "
That shouldn't be disturbing at all considering Rabbi E's consistent history of intellectual honesty and pursuit of the truth directly from the sources and the poskim. He is trying to stick to the halachic approach, as is his custom. I don't see what Rabbi E has done that is any different from what he's done in the past or in any way sheds a negative light on him. It seems to me he is calmly and assertively disproving the "Get On Demand" folks and educating the rest of us that actually there is no halachic validity to "Get On Demand." Given the role of media, PR firms, and "activists" in pushing the Get On Demand message, Rabbi E's careful intellectual discussion of this issue has added much needed context for someone like me who knew very little of this subject beyond media soundbites.
"1) This marriage is over and a therefore a get should be forthcoming, end of story. Any disputes about money and custody needs to be had without the husband using the get as leverage. It is disturbing to me that Rabbi E does not seem to even remotely hold this position, quite the contrary. "
ReplyDelete2) Whether the Dodelson family were right or wrong to go the secular press none of us are in a position to judge them since their daughter is being murdered daily, pshuto kamashmao, by having the fertile years of her life stolen from her. Her life is being held to ransom over money, and all of us would do anything needed to get a loved one out of that situation.
Feinschmeker what planet do you live on? There is no chiyuv for him to give a get. It would only be unethical if she had behaved herself and not stopped him seeing his child. Once a woman uses the child as leverage it is not only muttar to use the get as leverage but a chiyuv. there is a mitzva of "lo saamod al dam reicho" which applies to your child and yourself as much as to your neighbor. Anyone naive to think that you can give a get and still get fair treatment is delusional to put it mildly.
While there are those who may debate whether AMW followed halocho properly and generally speaking this should be the paramount concern, we live in a totally hefker veldt and the women are advised by fake gedolim to violate halocho and are supported and encouraged to do so.
What is clear is that this "very refined bas yisroel" with these wierd hashkofos on life wants to eliminate AMW from his son's life which itself is a huge breach in halocho. That she deliberately not only started this whole business by trying to reduce/ eliminate AMW from child's life and then followed through with a multi-year long process, even if from the dinim of arko"oys he can't get her to pay, he probably can from the dinim of genaivoh and mazik.
If she was so worried about her fertile years, she would have stayed married. if she was so worried about her fertile years, she would have ended the case quickly. if she were so worried about her reputation and her son's well being she also would have done the right thing and granted the father joint legal and residential custody.
All these concerns for these pitiful women are basically just the yetzer hora and baseless.