Sunday, January 27, 2013

Weberman: What is the message of 103 year sentence?

Wall Street Journal   Other close observers of the Satmar community worry about the outcome of the Weberman trial. Dovid Zwiebel, vice president of Agudath Israel America, a group that works closely with Brooklyn's Satmar population, said the case should have been handled more "delicately." 

"Many people felt it wasn't as if Mr. Weberman was on trial, it was as if the community was on trial," he said. 

Mr. Zwiebel, who said he applauded the crackdown on abuse, worried that a 103-year sentence might suggest "the system is rigged against Hasidic Jews."

"The reaction I've heard from many is maybe we shouldn't be cooperating with law-enforcement authorities," he added.

Mr. Hynes said his office asked for the maximum prison term knowing that the sentence—similar to those given to others convicted of such sex-abuse charges—would likely be cut to 50 years on appeal, which is typical in such cases. 

But that change might come too late to alter the perceptions of the community. 

Even Mr. Hikind, one of the most determined advocates for stepped-up prosecutions of sexual abuse within the Orthodox communities, questioned the wisdom of the sentence.

"As horrible as all of this is, I would have been happier if it would not have been 103," he said. "This almost says to people who already have a chip on their shoulder that the Orthodox community isn't getting a fair shake that they're right."

23 comments:

  1. I guess if these guys don't speak up on behalf of Satmar they get it in the neck.

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  2. And if it was their daughter chas v'shalom would they feel the same way?!?!

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    1. If it was my daughter I would not whine on Daas Torah or the pages of the Jewish Daily Forward about how bad Satmar or Agudah is.I would investigate it and if it were true you could bet your bottom dollar that the perpetrator would not be breathing.Unlike those who bask in being a victim I respect the avengers!

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  3. ""The reaction I've heard from many is maybe we shouldn't be cooperating with law-enforcement authorities," he added"

    and they were cooperating before weberman was sentenced????

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  4. Agauda is right.If you were Satmar and you worked in Hatzaloh saving lives,why should your good reputation be tarnished by Weberman?If you were Satmar and active in Bikur Cholim and feeding the hungry like the volunteers like Masbia why should your good name go down the drain because of Weberman.Many of the people who thought Weberman was innocent actually believed it.Their community was under attack way before this.Every Sunday in the NYPost they had some attack against Williamsburg or Boro Park.I remember seeing one article about a dress code in a store in Williamsburg .(How many bars and eateries in NYC have dress codes?)103 years???Who else ever got that.Mafia killers get 40 years and that is for murder.The point is not that Weberman is innocent.The points are that most Jews are to stupid to understand how much hate there is out there.They have no shot in court if they have a yarmulke.Regardless of Weberman.Also good people should never be made to suffer for what evil people do.

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  5. Can someone here correct me if I am wrong. I did not hear any comments from Rabbi Zwiebel or any other Aguda official during the entire trial. Not regarding the perp or the victim.

    The reason that the Satmar community came under so much scrutiny is because of its vicious behavior against the victim, her family and witness tampering. This coming from the rebbe and all the way down.

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    1. Why does Agudah have any achrius to speak out on the Weberman trial. Satmar is represented by their own community.To me this is an issue between the victim and Weberman or the DA and Weberman.

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  6. I also like the way that he opens up his statement with ambiguity. "As horrible as all this is,". That as opposed to "as much as this guy deserves what he gets'.

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  7. Can someone here correct me if I am wrong. I did not hear any comments from Rabbi Zwiebel or any other Aguda official during the entire trial. Not regarding the perp or the victim.

    The reason that the Satmar community came under so much scrutiny is because of its vicious behavior against the victim, her family and witness tampering. This coming from the rebbe and all the way down.

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    1. What slander!Coming from the rebbe?Right the rebbe organized everything. Maybe on "Planet Victimhood".But not in the real world.

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    2. "why should your good reputation be tarnished by Weberman?"

      that is why chillul hashem is so serious - it tarnishes all torah jews, whether they deserve it or not.

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    3. True and because that is true you don't go running to Mary Murphy from WPIX and lie and say "When we were children we were taught to protect the abuser". Sure, they had a special shiur at Torah VaYerirah that taught them to protect abusers.If I recall the husband of the victim said that.I don't like Rabbi Shmuel Boteach but he was right when he said just because you were the victim of pain doesn't give you the right to cause more pain.Rabbi Nachum Rosenberg is well motivated and has courage but running to the sonei Yisroel in the goyshe press is not acceptable as there are other options.

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    4. did they teach kids to say tehillim for an abuser or organize fund raisers for an abuser?

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    5. I don't believe they actually thought he was an abuser.If they did why would they even hold a fundraiser for him muchless say Tehillim.The message that I have been hearing from the victims advocates is that they knew what he was doing and THAT is why they are helping him.At the very least as Mr.Deutch said on the clip featured here "We were taught to protect the abuser".Being a victim of horrible abuse doesn't not give you some special reshus to slander and libel people.No sympathy with me.

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    6. "I don't believe they actually thought he was an abuser."

      you have no idea just how correct and therefore how damaging this statement is.

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  8. Perhaps the 103 year sentence for Nechemia Weberman and peripherally the Satmar chassidus of NY State, was G-d's message, that the two feuding Rebbe brothers should not have taken their dispute(s) to the secular court system.

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  9. I agree with Rabbi Zweibel. 20 years would have been sufficient.
    Weberman would be an old man when he got out and learned his lesson.
    103 years or 50 years means life in prison.

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    1. Maybe. Or maybe he cannot control his urge to harm people.I see it as poetic justic.Dressed like a tzaddik but did not think twice about masering another Yid.What goes around....

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  10. What is the message?January 28, 2013 at 9:01 AM

    It is obvious that the dramatic number of 103 is a message, not the actual sentence. This number is therefore intended to tell the Satmar community something. Perhaps 102 might have been slightly more appropriate.

    The extremism that leads people to conclude that a frum Yid cannot gat a fair trial in US is related to the same extremism that dominates many other aspects of the frum community. It is frankly paranoid. Yet, the bizarre number in this sentencing addresses this feature of this community - just that they are taking away the wrong message.

    As for Aguda's silence, please explain to us exactly what we expected to hear Aguda say. They needed to observe the process and not to mix in, and they did just that. Weberman got the conviction he sought by his actions, and his cooperation with the court system (including the "supporters") was provocative and the target of the sentence. Now what else was required here?

    I don't know whether 20 years is enough. Weberman needs to be permanently away from the Klal. And there are others like him who need to be locked away. May HKB"H help us to identify all these "holy" rapists and molesters, isolate them, and have them locked away from the community.

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  11. What does the Agudah have to do with this?I always hear things like "What is the community doing about the "shidduch crises"?A community is made up of individuals who will do or not do.Of the people I know if a Weberman situation happened we go right to the cops or take care of it face to face.The reason Aguda is brought into it is only to use them as a scapegoat.Their job as I see it is to combat legislation that will harm frum people.They did about zero to strike down the gay marriage law and let intermarried Anthony Weiner address our Gedolim .Agudah does not speak for me!

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  12. The complainers are way off base. The reason the sentence was so high was not only because of the heinous nature of the crime, but because the perpetrator felt he was above the law, and his position as a major community figure insulated him from legal scrutiny. Such an attitude invites severe punishment when one is actually convicted.

    Lehavdil, we recently learned in Daf Yomi about the concept of poretz geder yishchenu nachash, which the gemara applies to one who violates a derabbanan. (The gemara takes it literally — someone was bit by a poisonous snake. Abbaye said he must have violated a derabbanan, and they checked and turned out he was right.)

    Rabbenu Yonah comments in his Shaarey Teshuvah that although the Torah only made one liable for death for certain aveiras, not all, one is liable for death for all derabbanans. Why? He answers that typically a God-fearing Jew takes deoraysas seriously. If he sins, he does so only out of taavah. That means that only in some cases, the transgression is severe enough to warrant death.

    OTOH, a person who violates a derabbanan typically does so because he does not take it and the authority of the rabbanan seriously. For that, one is liable for death, even though inherently a derabbanan is less severe than a deoraysa.

    Same thing applies here. Sure, Aron Levi (who got 40 years, and to whom Weberman has been compared by many Satmar), did something terrible, but he did so out of a sick fantasy. Weberman thumbed his nose at the law. That earned him a harsher sentence.

    The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Weberman was big. And he fell hard.

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    1. I think Tal is right. Unlike Tal I don't have that type of inside knowledge of how verdicts are rendered. Maybe on appeal they will settle for some sentence reduction.How anybody could be that arrogant is beyond me.

      When I was a boy there were certain people from this group that were arrested on embezzlement charges.I asked my Bubba and Zeida if they were going to the can for a long time and they laughed at me.I did not understand why they were laughing at me.My grandmother said "These people don't go to jail".I thought this was a very odd statement.Sure enough they got off!It is shochad. Well,Weberman has learned that not only can't money buy you love it cannot buy you freedom when you behave like an animal.It is not exactly "Pavlov".I would like to make it clear,however,that I believe Satmar is a center of Chessed and Tzitkus and that the actions of a few should have no bearing on that community.

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