Take anything to do with politics with a pinch of salt
meaning what in this case?
What's that letter saying?
It strongly condemns R Amnon Yitzchok for insulting Rav Ovadia Yosef. It says that he is only interested in kavod and is falsely presenting that he is interested in holiness. It says to isolate him in all ways including not giving him any money for his political campaign.
In the public realm all R. Yitzchok said is that Chacham Yosef only hears filtered information and that his handlers dont let anyone through.Thought in an honest environment all Rabbanim would agree with that, and if not, why not?
Who are the signatories? Sefardic or Ashkenazic? Any of them a major rabbinical figure?Any proof that the signature are not a forgery?
What exactly did he say that was insulting? If he said that he personally does not consider Rav Avodayo Yosef his mentor that is not insulting. It just means that he has other Gedolim. And was the accused person given an opportunity to explain why he did what he did?
Hello Dovid, this is Israel remember.... Was Slifkin ever spoken to before bans were posted? Did G'dolim call in R. Nosson Kaminetsky to talk about "The Making of a Gadol" before defaming him and the book publicly? Surely the 'accused person' will not be given an opportunity to explain why he did what he did, or what others thought he did?
Kikar HaShabbat has a full discussion of the issuehttp://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/%D7%94%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%A2-%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%9F-%D7%99%D7%A6%D7%97%D7%A7-%D7%94%D7%A7%D7%93%D7%99%D7%97-%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%95.html
"R' Amnon Yitzchok self-destructs over elections"This is about time because Amon Yitschak has long been acting too big for his boots. He is just a megalomanical self-centered demagogue who has simply become too dangerous. He made a HUUUUGE mistake by getting involved in politics -- in America, the hot-head loud-mouth Shmuli Boteach also over-reached and tried to get elected to Congress, but lucky for him he lost, and he can still continue being the newshound he excels at -- but in Israel, where everyone lives cooped up in a smaller place, caught in the rat cage, Amnon Yitschak started up with the wrong people, his own "anshei hamizrach" aka Sefardim, by attempting to encroach on their turf in the Knesset, and now they are devouring him alive like piranhas, and it's delicious to watch!Amnon Yitschak has long suffered from an obvious "messiah complex" acting as if he is the only one who has the answers to everything. Now hopefully this menace can be laid to rest with the other false messiahs of history.
If he and Rav Amsalem manage to cost Shas a seat, they'll have served their purpose.
I am not familiar with any of those publications. I know that publications usually have connections to certain rabbis. I still want to hear what statements were made, exactly, from a source that has nothing to do with politics. I still don't know why we can't ask the person himself what he said, at least to get his side. And even if he refuses to answer, until there are two good witnesses who have no connections with any politics or people who may have an interest in this matter, I don't know how we can plaster the world with terrible complaints about a person who has done so much good. Because if we break him we throw a huge number of people in the ashes. If you say that so and so said he is wrong, that is one thing. But to publish it on your own backing as if you know exactly what happened, I don't know what proof you have to throw out such a person. And if he did say terrible things, maybe he has repented of them, even privately, and that may make a difference. This whole story makes no sense to me. Why in the world a person forms a political party that will surely attract many students of Reb Ovadyo shlit"o and he is supposed to have come out against this sage? Why? The story makes no sense. Something is missing. We are not talking about an idiot.
Maybe the scenario is as follows, I don't know, but maybe. Everyone got along fine until Rabbi Amnon Yitschok founded a political party. This is a threat to the Sefardic political party or parties, a major threat. IT is also a threat to the Rov of the Sefardim, accepted surely by most Sefardim as their spiritual leader. If one political party considers itself under the supervision of Reb Ovadyo Yosef, and a prominent Sefardic personality defies this connection to make his own party, this is two things: One, an insult to the senior Rov and two, a political problem as it draws Sefardic votes away. If Rabbi Amnon Yitschok did not get permission from the senior Rov of the Sefardim, he had to explain this, and maybe he did, in one of two ways. One, he has other Gedolim, which is possible, and two, he blames the family for keeping the aged senior rabbi "protected" so he cannot talk to him and tell his side of the story. Again, I don't know, but the idea that he just got up and let loose at the senior Rov is patently ridiculous.
two, he blames the family for keeping the aged senior rabbi "protected" so he cannot talk to him and tell his side of the story.YES YES, this is what he publicly said!!! Which is a slap in the face (in Israelland) to the Gadol.
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He's brought hundreds of thousands of Jews back to Torah. So what has he done wrong?
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS???Have you any inkling of how foolish one must be to make such.a statement???in what yshiva's 'secular studies department' were you taught to count?No wonder Sakmar and the Agudah have so many blinded followers. The charaidi education system must have been purposely designed to keep generating a steady supply of people so incapable of actual thought that they repeat every stupid bit of misinformation fed to them by anyone in an outlandish costume, be it the dress of Arab anti semites or European anti semites, so long as the beard is long enough.
You are taking this whole affair to the extreme.
RAP,Where do you get your tainted point of view of Rav Amnon Yitzchak? Are you a sefardi zealot supporter of Rav Yosef?If you've ever seen him, you would see that he is eminently logical and consistent and without outlandish deeds convinces many with pure logic of the truth of Judaism.Your words are nothing but astounding distortions of the truth.
"tzoorba said...Where do you get your tainted point of view of Rav Amnon Yitzchak?"RaP: Thanks to Amnon Yitschak (AY) himself and his rip-off Shofar organization over a number of many years I, like so many others whether we like it or not, have had no choice and have read his ads, received his flyers, watched his videos on YouTube, been forced to listen to him on radio when getting rides or when simply trying to dial some "news" and instead getting hot air from the AY windbag himself. AY's PR machine has been in over-drive for many years now so that anyone who keeps up with frum affairs has gotten to view him and come up with some conclusions about this guy."Are you a sefardi zealot supporter of Rav Yosef?"RaP: Now just what is that supposed to mean? Are the supporters of Rav Ovadya Yosef all "zealots" and the supporters of AR are just nice "calm & rational" people?"If you've ever seen him, you would see that he is eminently logical and consistent and without outlandish deeds convinces many with pure logic of the truth of Judaism."RaP: Sure, that's because AY went to college in Israel and got a good education and holds a degree in science from an Israeli university. He also served in the IDF and that in itself provides for good mental training. Now he is ultra-rum and dresses and talks like fanatical nut job. By the way, who made him into this Charedi fanatic? they must also take the blame and answer to what is going on now. So it's no thanks to his new-found religiosity, but it's a result of his prior education that his brain was trained to be logical. And sure, AY is a good motivational speaker and he is charismatic. At most he should be heading up a BT institution, and like other before him in Ashkenazi world who speak just as well and are even more educated, like the late Rav Nachman Bulman, or Noach Weinberg, or yb"l Berel Wein (all of these are greater scholars secularly and Torah-wise than AY in any case), AY can preach to secular people. BUT, it is crazy to even imagine that AY can even step up toe to toe and imagine he can go head to head with Rav Ovadya Yosef, who has been a chief rabbis of Israel, has sat on its main batei din together with Rav Elyashiv zt"l (that should give you some idea of Rav Yosef's caliber), and who has written major seforim and shaylos and teshuvus, he is the rashkebehag of the Sefardim, everyone knows that, who has been recognized by gedolim as an EQUAL from all sectors ranging from the late Rav JB Soloveitchik in America to the late Rav E Schach in Israel who helped him launch the Shas party. So now here comes Mr. Pipsqueek AY who thinks just because Hashem has blessed him with a big mouth, long beard and peyos and charismatic personality he can "knock out" Rav Yosef all WITHOUT the backing of a single major gadol on a par with Rav Yosef who would back AY? I mean, just how STOOOOPID is this Reb Amnon? 'Cause he sure looks pretty dumb. Forget about all his born-again acolytes 'causer as the saying goes "in the land of the blind, the eyed man is 'king'" which so aptly and accurately applies to AY, who is looking more and more like the nebech case he is the longer he fights with Rav Yosef and the tighter the noose gets around his neck as his own rabbis tug to proverbially "disembowel" him so to speak!"Your words are nothing but astounding distortions of the truth."RaP: Not sure which "truth" you subscribe to? Care to explain please?
Recipients and Publicity,Why is it that of all of the people in the world, rabbis, scholars, activists, smart people, only you realized that AY is someone best destroyed?Also, you never answered my basic question. What did he say that made the uproar?
Some other questions:Before the political party issue, did AY have any differences of opinion with the Rov?Did AY ever consider the Rov his authority, his rebbe?
I have no idea who RAY considers to be his rav (not rebbe; he isn't askkenazi). however, ROY and RAY have very different approaches to the "zionist entity" and secular people. with the exception of the occasional charif statement about some secular politician, ROY doesn't engage in insulting secular jews. RAY does it as part of his stand up routine. similarly ROY may not be a mercaz flag waving zionist, but he is totally pro-state, while RAY never hesitates to condemn it with satmar-like pronouncements.
“Before the political party issue, did AY have any differences of opinion with the Rov?Did AY ever consider the Rov his authority, his rebbe?”“I have no idea who RAY considers to be his rav (not rebbe; he isn't askkenazi).”Rav Amnon Yitzchak considered Rav Yudel Shapiro Zatzal (an Ashkenazi) to be his Rov. In fact, it was Rav Yudel Shapiro, who after becoming acquainted with Rav Amnon Yitzchak when they were both learning in Kollel Chazon Ish, told Rav Amnon Yitzchak to get involved in Kiruv. Rav Amonon Yitzchak has called him his Rov numerous times. Rav Amonon Yitzchak has been observed visiting Rav Yudel Shapiro’s home, next door to Lederman’s Shul in Bnei Brak, very frequently. Rav Yudel Shapiro publicly backed Rav Amnon Yitzchak against some detractor at least once, with signs plastered all over Bnei Brak.Rav Yudel Shapiro Zatzal was a Talmid in the Mir in Yerushalayim, and then a very close Talmid of the Chazon Ish. He was a Posek and the Rov of the “Upstairs Minyan” in Lederman’s Shul, while Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita was the Rov of the “Downstairs Minyan”. Although he was a Talmid Chochom with the stature of a Gadol and was held in high esteem by the Gedolim of Bnei Brak, Rav Yudel Shapiro was almost never in the limelight (the only time I can recall seeing his signature on a public document is the one mentioned above) and as such people outside of Bnei Brak haven’t really heard of him. An interesting vignette: On the Yomim Nora’im, there is no Minyan downstairs in the Lederman’s Shul, only a Netz Minyan upstairs, which means that for about 20 years, Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita Davvenned on the Yomim Nora’im in Rav Yudel Shapiro’s Shul. During the last year of his life, Rav Yudel Shapiro was not well enough to Davven in Shul, and so Rav Chaim Shlita substituted for him as Rov. Rav Chaim announced that on Rosh HaShona he wants the Tekiyos blown differently that year than they had ever been blown before in Lederman’s Shul, because he understood the Shitas Chazon Ish for Tekiyas Shofar slightly differently than Rav Yudel understood it. When asked why he had never said anything about this all the other years, Rav Chaim answered that on the Yomim Nora’im he is a guest in Rav Yudel’s Shul and certainly doesn’t want to undermine his authority. But since he’ll be substituting for him this year, he wants the Tekiyos done as he understands them. Rav Chaim also added that hopefully Rav Yudel will be well enough to attend Shul next year, and then of course the Tekiyos should be done according to Rav Yudel’s understanding. Following Rav Yudel Shapiro’s advice, Rav Amnon Yitzchak remained apolitical for decades. Personally, he didn’t vote. Interestingly enough, years ago, Rav Ovadya Yosef Shlita asked him to come to a rally for Shas, as can plainly be seen on a Shofar video. Being apolitical, he didn’t respond in the affirmative. Also, once Rav Amnon Yitzchak was giving a speech on election day, and Rav Ovadya Yosef sent a note asking him to announce that anyone who hasn’t voted yet should leave the speech and go vote, which Rav Amnon Yitzchak read to the audience in middle of his speech, as is recorded on a Shofar tape. To the best of my knowledge, Rav Amnon Yitzchak has never considered Rav Ovadya Yosef or any other Sefardi Rov his personal Rebbe. I do not know whether or not he considers himself to have a Rebbe Muvhak since Rav Yudel Shapiro’s passing several years ago.
Betsalel,I wish I knew the answer to your question. But here is another thought. Someone in Lakewood, a prominent Rov, was very close to Reb Moshe Feinstein zt"l. He told me the following. One day, Reb Moshe told him, 'Moshiach was supposed to come on such and such a day, but because there was a certain machlokess, he did not come." Today, in Israel, there are two mighty machlokesen, and in both cases, both sides are so sure of their position that making peace is difficult. There is nothing you and I can do to make peace. But to throw oil in the flames, that we can refuse to do. I am just suggesting that perhaps the statements, taken out of the political impact that ithey have, might be less of a problem to a lot of us who are not part of the politics.
I still can't find out what he said that made the uproar. Without that, what does all of this rest upon? Does anybody know, or did they read about it in the second hand comments of pro and con people? We have to have two things: One, the exact statement or statements, and two, the context in which they were said. If he said it in a radio show, we want the prelude statements as well, and we want to know the background if there were more differences of opinion, etc. that may help us understand certain statements.
Like i said, it's all politics. Rav Amnon Yitzchak has dared enroach onto Shas's turf during election time so he's suddenly a heretic.
Anybody who wants first hand info should go to Shofar.tv Rav Amnon Yitzchak's site, and hear all his quotes live. He has all the recordings.You can watch his lectures too. He has a recording of himself speaking to Harav Lugasi, who is signed on the paper above, and he asked Rav Lugasi if he really signed, to which Rav Lugasi answered that he was told that Rav Ovadia wants everbody to sign so he signed without really reading the paper. He said he didn't realize it was talking about Rav Amnon, and he would have spoken to him first.The comments that Rav Amnon said were, "Access to Rav Ovadia is controlled by his daughter in-law Yehudit, and that she doesn't like him because he is against a famous singer (Moshiach ben Aviv) which she likes. The reason he is against this singer is because he performs in front of mixed audiences which all the Gedolim are against.Shas had a huge rally a few years ago hosting this singer, which Rav Ovadia backed.Rav Amnon went out against this, and told people not to go. He said that the singer misled Rav Ovadia, saying that he was chozer betshuva, and won't perform in front of mixed crowds, which was a lie.Rav Ovadia was quoted as being very angry at Rav Amnon, for trying to prevent the rally.Since then Rav Amnon wasn't allowed to go in to Rav Ovadia.He also quotes Harav A.L Shteinmen as giving him a bracha and permission to start a party, and therefore is not obligated by Rav Ovadia, who is against him.Rav Amnon is coming out soon with a video on his site, showing how others misquote him, in order to place him in a bad light.
You don't think that the fact that he is putting out political fliers that say that those who love Rav Ovadia should vote for his(Rav Amnon's) party has anything to do with the machloket?
Chazal tell us that when you see a Talmid Chochom sin, be sure that he repented it, until you know otherwise. Surely to assume that he sinned is wrong. Furthermore, when a whole town is filled with gossip about someone, we discount it if there are enemies in the town. As soon as the politics began, these people are suspect. Surely, to believe that a political opponent who has much to lose because of RAY's party can be believed to tarnish a reputation is wrong.
IMO the campaign against RAY and Rav Amsalem aren't simply against these two people. neither is going to get into the knesset (probably); maybe they'll cost Shas a seat. their real danger, and the danger of Peles, lies in the fact that they are showing everyone that you can rebel against the rabbis, something which doesn't go down well in a world of daat torah.
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