So essentially what we have is a guy from Brazil who managed to pull the wool over the eyes of several Rabbis Gedolim, including, until he backtracked, Rav Shternbuch.
If you want to cause damage to Daas Torah... please publish away. However, it does seem to hurt the cause when Daas Torah can't even effectively and accurately rule on issues well within their purview. All the more so when it seems that many want to expand that purview into clearly secular topics.
mekubal - He pulled wool over the eyes of only one. All the other Rabbonim said he was a fraud right from the get go -- especially Rav Shternbuch shlita, who said he was just mentally ill.
mekubal - He pulled wool over the eyes of only one. All the other Rabbonim said he was a fraud right from the get go -- especially Rav Shternbuch shlita, who said he was just mentally ill. I am sorry but that is just not true.
The Matzav article lists Gedolim who fully supported it.
It leaves out that Rav Shternbuch did initially as well, based on the Eidus of his son who was at the exorcism.
To claim otherwise is simply bad revisionist history.
mekubal - Look at the old stories on YWN and Matzav. Rav Shternbuch called this fraudster from the get-go. It is in the archives.
As today's YWN article says: "It is interesting to note, that Maran Hagon Rav Elyashiv, Maran Hagon Rav Shteinman, and Maran Hagon Rav Chaim Kanievsky all refused to meet with the individual who claimed he was possessed by the Dibuk. Additionally, Rav Moshe Sternbach Shlita had said that the man was most probably mentally ill."
In fact, the very point about R. Shternbuch's son being there was asked to Rav Shternbuch last year (its on a YWN story from the time this charade was going on), and R. Shternbuch smiled and said his son went for the entertainment value.
Face up to it mekubal. The only person who accepted this fool, made a similar mistake years ago, that parallels his mistake here.
February 15th, 2010 Rav Batzriis also quoted as discounting statements that the avreich may be mentally ill, insisting many have interviewed and checked the young man and this was determined to not be the case.
February 14th, 2010 Not everyone is convince there is a dibuk with some indicating mental illness is more likely, including Eida Chareidis Av Beis Din HaGaon HaRav Moshe Sternbuch Shlita, who was quoted at attributing the sounds emanating from the young Brazilian bachur to such illness when questioned in the case last month. It should also be noted that Maran Hagon Rav Elyashiv also refused to meet with the individual involving the Dibuk.
January 13th, 2010 Maran Rav Elyashiv Refused To Meet With Dibuk Reports indicate the victim sought a bracha from Maran HaGaon HaRav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv Shlita, who reportedly stated “I have no business with dibuks”.
January 12th, 2010 HaGaon HaRav Sternbuch Reiterates: No Dibuk – Mental Illness
It appears Eida Chareidis Av Beis Din HaGaon HaRav Moshe Sternbuch appears determined to get the message across, that the reports of the Brazilian avreich infected with a dibuk are nothing more than a case of “mental illness”.
The Rav stressed in this case he believes the avreich is ill.
When asked if the Rav’s son attended the ceremony conducted by R’ David Batzri Shlita last week, the Rav confirmed this is true, explaining “he was curious. He wanted to go. What shall I do?”
January 10th, 2010 R’ Daniel Eidensohn in his ‘Daas Torah’ blog quotes Rav Moshe Sternbuch Shlita as saying there was no dibuk, but “mental illness”, adding he was urged by the Rav to write and article and publicize his words.
In addition, R’ Eidensohn in his report, quoting HaRav Sternbuch, that despite reports on various websites that he did, Rav Shternbach never issued a p’sak niddui against the dibuk to prevent any harm to Rav Batzri during the attempt to lure the dibuk out of the avreich.
Rav Sternbuch is also quoted as expressing surprise and dismay over the fact that thousands believe the reports of the man infected with a dibuk.
January 7th, 2010 Rabbi Batzri: ‘Get Out Dibuk!’
At one point, the dibuk appeared willing to leave the host, via an eye, but Rav Batzri shouted he does not have permission to harm the young man, ordering him to leave via the small toe of his left foot only, with causing any harm to the young man.
December 22nd, 2009 The bizarre report adds that HaRav Dovid Batzri, a known Mekubal, tried to remove the dibuk via Skype, without success, and now, the ‘infected’ avreich it is on its way to Israel.
February 15th, 2010 Rav Batzriis also quoted as discounting statements that the avreich may be mentally ill, insisting many have interviewed and checked the young man and this was determined to not be the case.
February 14th, 2010 Not everyone is convince there is a dibuk with some indicating mental illness is more likely, including Eida Chareidis Av Beis Din HaGaon HaRav Moshe Sternbuch Shlita, who was quoted at attributing the sounds emanating from the young Brazilian bachur to such illness when questioned in the case last month. It should also be noted that Maran Hagon Rav Elyashiv also refused to meet with the individual involving the Dibuk.
January 13th, 2010 Maran Rav Elyashiv Refused To Meet With Dibuk Reports indicate the victim sought a bracha from Maran HaGaon HaRav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv Shlita, who reportedly stated “I have no business with dibuks”.
January 12th, 2010 HaGaon HaRav Sternbuch Reiterates: No Dibuk – Mental Illness
It appears Eida Chareidis Av Beis Din HaGaon HaRav Moshe Sternbuch appears determined to get the message across, that the reports of the Brazilian avreich infected with a dibuk are nothing more than a case of “mental illness”.
The Rav stressed in this case he believes the avreich is ill.
When asked if the Rav’s son attended the ceremony conducted by R’ David Batzri Shlita last week, the Rav confirmed this is true, explaining “he was curious. He wanted to go. What shall I do?”
January 10th, 2010 R’ Daniel Eidensohn in his ‘Daas Torah’ blog quotes Rav Moshe Sternbuch Shlita as saying there was no dibuk, but “mental illness”, adding he was urged by the Rav to write and article and publicize his words.
In addition, R’ Eidensohn in his report, quoting HaRav Sternbuch, that despite reports on various websites that he did, Rav Shternbach never issued a p’sak niddui against the dibuk to prevent any harm to Rav Batzri during the attempt to lure the dibuk out of the avreich.
Rav Sternbuch is also quoted as expressing surprise and dismay over the fact that thousands believe the reports of the man infected with a dibuk.
January 7th, 2010 Rabbi Batzri: ‘Get Out Dibuk!’
At one point, the dibuk appeared willing to leave the host, via an eye, but Rav Batzri shouted he does not have permission to harm the young man, ordering him to leave via the small toe of his left foot only, with causing any harm to the young man.
December 22nd, 2009 The bizarre report adds that HaRav Dovid Batzri, a known Mekubal, tried to remove the dibuk via Skype, without success, and now, the ‘infected’ avreich it is on its way to Israel.
Matzav.com: Video: Rav Batzri’s Dybbuk Exorcism in 1999
February 15, 2010 As for those who claim that the avreich is mentally ill, Rav Yitzchak Batzri stated, that is false. “Hundreds of people have already met him. He is a mentally healthy person,” he said.
11 January 2010 Rav Shternbuch Repeats: It’s Not A Dybbuk
December 24, 2009 Video: Rav Batzri Attempts Dybbuk Removal Via DybbukVision
To claim that gedolim "refused to meet with him" is highly disingenuous.
They recommended the "expert" in dybuks - Rabbi Botzri - and sent the dybuk carrier to him as they considered themselves unable to extract a dybuk. They never called the man a fraud or expressed disbelief in his story.
To claim that that is the equivalent of "refusing to meet with him" is absurd!
Rav Shternbach was the one who said it was mental illness and NOT a dybuk. So I'm sure Rabbi Shternbuch does not recommend Rav Botzri for mental illness but a doctor. His disbelief of the dybuk story cannot be attributed to other rabbis.
Since you put so much stock in R' Eidensohn, I give you his own communique to me at the time. the story is more complex. Rav Sternbuch's son was there and was in contact with his father by phone. He got all excited telling his father what was going on and Rav Sternbuch did in fact say to say in his name that the dybuk was in nidoi. That was based on his relying on his son's testimony. However when he gathered more evidence he realized that his son's testimony wasn't fully accurate and based on other evidence concluded that it was mental health. He never wrote a document or said that he was doing it to protect Rav Batzri. Unfortunately he didn't tell me this when he made is denial of the news accounts. Clearly the story is not the way you would like to think that it is. Were there Gedolim who absolutely refuted this from the beginning, yes there were. They were, Rav O. Yosef, Rav Shlomo Amar, Rav Shalom Mordekai Hedayya, Rav Yaakov Hillel, and Rav Moshe Tzedaka to name but a few. When I asked the Roshei Yeshivot of Nahar Shalom, they said they hadn’t personally looked into so they couldn’t comment, though overall all it was best not to be overly involved with such things.
The Gedolei Yisroel, i.e. HaRav Elyashiv, HaRav Shteinman, HaRav Chaim Kanievsky, all refused to meet with the Brazilian. They can see what we can't. If we would just follow the gedolim, everything would fall in place.
Exactly right. The gedolim, when the story first came out, gave credence to the story. They only sent him to Rav Batzri because they felt themselves unqualified to extract dybukkim. They certainly confirmed belief in the dybuk and possibility of dybukim-possessions such as described in this case.
You are right that it is only now, after the fact, when this case is proven a fraud, that the frum-robot media clowns are trying to pretend that "the gedolim" said it was false all along, as another "confirmation" of the gedolim's all-seeing powers - even though this case was quite the opposite in fact.
At the time, only Rav Shternbuch was saying it's not a dybbuk at all, it's a mental illness. And yes, this brazilian was afflicted with a mental illness - the type where he is criminally deceptive and takes advantage of thousands of gullible irrational people.
None of the gedolim accepted it was a dyybuk. They simply sent him to Rav Batzri to figure out what the story was. Proof please?
We have a cited article from the time above, and other cited material saying the opposite. On the other side we have a bunch of people who are simply saying "not so."
That is not a credible argument, it is just... well an ostrich putting its head in the ground in hopes that the predator won't see it comes to mind.
He could have said that the man has a mental illness. Instead he said that he refused to meet with him because he had a dybuk and Rav Eliashiv refuses to have dealings with dybukim.
Rav Shternbuch told his son to say in his name that the dybuk was in niduy.
The others(apparently not believeing that the man had a mental illness) either did or did not meet with him(it is a apparent that some did) and sent him to Rav Batzri for an exorcism!!!
If they all thought it was a mental illness why did they not send him to a mental health professional. Bikur Holim(just a few blocks from Rav Batzri's Yeshiva) has a full wing dedicated to mental health issues such as Jerusalem Syndrome.
That is the craziest apologetic explanation you could have invented for being a mekubal.
When Rav Elyashev reportedly said "I have no business with dibuks", he is saying he has no business with the concept of dibuks and will not entertain a crazy man claiming to have a dibuk. Why should Rav Elyashev say the man is mentally ill? He isn't a physician or psychiatrist. The man could just as well have been mentally well, just lying and acting.
As far as Rav Shternbuch is concerned, Rabbi Eidensohn very clearly reported over here that Rav Shternbuch told him directly that he never put the so-called dybuk in niddoi and told Rabbi Eidensohn to make that clear to the public, and that this is a case of mental illness. Rav Shternbuch was the ONLY one who addressed this Brazilian's issue that got the issue right.
And as I clearly showed above, R' Eidensohn admittedly withheld information, the specific information that Rav Shternbuch did initially put the dybuk into niddoi and only later changed his mind.
To say that Rav Eliahshiv has no business with the concept of dybukim is actually quite problematic, as he has safe-guarded and seen to the publication of one of greatest commentaries on Kitvei Ha'Ari, the "Leshem" which was the work of his own father.
So why not drop the lies and smokescreens and just admit that this guy duped a good number of Gedolim(if he isn't lying now).
Who do you think your kidding when you anonymously try to insinuate that the godol HaRav Shternbuch shlit"a made a boldfaced lie to R. Eidensohn when he "categorically denied" (as R. Eidensohn posted and linked above) reports of any "involvement with the proclamation of nidoi" by him.
Why R' Eidensohn doesn't own up to his own bad reporting... I can't say. Though I do have to wonder if trying to get that same Rabbi to back his book has something to do with it.
Harold, You should note that my accusation is not against Rav Shternbuch. He personally said nothing to the press. The blog owner was his mouth piece. The blog owner, knew from the start what was and was not true. The blog owner choose to withhold certain facts.
Don't try to shift the blame to R. Eidensohn. Rav Shterbuch shlit"a said very clearly he never made a proclamation of nidoi. So your two-bit accusation is against the godol hador.
r batzri became a millionare from the first dybuk...now takes thousands of dollars for bracha-tikkun...in other words he is bribed...can't see the truth...
Gadol Hador?!?!?! I have said nothing against HaRav HaGaom Rabbeinu Ovadiah Yosef Shlit"a. The only Rav I know of that is worthy of the title Gadol Hador hasn't even entered this conversation.
Other than blog owner, to whom is Rav Sternbuch make that proclamation? Every news source that I saw, everyone sited above, claims this very blog as its source. I have given you evidence, black on white, that the blog owner himself knew that Rav Shternbuch initially credited the Dybuk as being real. Your denials are backed by no evidence. Unless you can refute the evidence thus laid before you, you are left sounding like those who claimed Tropper was innocent.
Just looked at mekubals posted email. It doesn't demonstrate much, as it doesn't indicate anywhere on what basis or authority the emails author asserted the info regarding Rav Shternbuch's SON's supposed interactions with his father.
Harold, THE Godol Hador I would say is HaRav Shalom Yosef Elyashev shlita, although you are correct that HaRav Moshe Shternbuch is also a Godol Hador, and mekunal insinuations are mevaze talmid chochom, which can potentially place him as an apikorus.
Your discussion reminds me of the disputes between villages in Spain, each one defending their "holy virgin". "La unica verdadera vergin es la de Santa Maria de las Gracias, la vergin de Riveras de Alhamos es una puta..."
I think it is OK for each and every one of you to believe that your Rebbe is a great saint, the only one you personally would trust. But from there to go and insult other rebbes is too much arrogance in my view.
It just makes Torah look so ridiculous. You are like soccer fans, each one defending his club and insulting the one of the neighbouring city.
"Gadol Hador?!?!?! I have said nothing against HaRav HaGaom Rabbeinu Ovadiah Yosef Shlit"a. The only Rav I know of that is worthy of the title Gadol Hador hasn't even entered this conversation."
"Harold, THE Godol Hador I would say is HaRav Shalom Yosef Elyashev shlita, although you are correct that HaRav Moshe Shternbuch is also a Godol Hador, and mekunal"
Alias: My Gadol hador is the only true gadol hador, your gadol hador is nothing but...
Like soccer fans... Or Spaniards uplifting their local vergin, back in their time (I do not know whether they still exist).
Is there really a need to publish this?
ReplyDeleteSo essentially what we have is a guy from Brazil who managed to pull the wool over the eyes of several Rabbis Gedolim, including, until he backtracked, Rav Shternbuch.
If you want to cause damage to Daas Torah... please publish away. However, it does seem to hurt the cause when Daas Torah can't even effectively and accurately rule on issues well within their purview. All the more so when it seems that many want to expand that purview into clearly secular topics.
mekubal - He pulled wool over the eyes of only one. All the other Rabbonim said he was a fraud right from the get go -- especially Rav Shternbuch shlita, who said he was just mentally ill.
ReplyDeletemekubal - He pulled wool over the eyes of only one. All the other Rabbonim said he was a fraud right from the get go -- especially Rav Shternbuch shlita, who said he was just mentally ill.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry but that is just not true.
The Matzav article lists Gedolim who fully supported it.
It leaves out that Rav Shternbuch did initially as well, based on the Eidus of his son who was at the exorcism.
To claim otherwise is simply bad revisionist history.
mekubal - Look at the old stories on YWN and Matzav. Rav Shternbuch called this fraudster from the get-go. It is in the archives.
ReplyDeleteAs today's YWN article says: "It is interesting to note, that Maran Hagon Rav Elyashiv, Maran Hagon Rav Shteinman, and Maran Hagon Rav Chaim Kanievsky all refused to meet with the individual who claimed he was possessed by the Dibuk. Additionally, Rav Moshe Sternbach Shlita had said that the man was most probably mentally ill."
In fact, the very point about R. Shternbuch's son being there was asked to Rav Shternbuch last year (its on a YWN story from the time this charade was going on), and R. Shternbuch smiled and said his son went for the entertainment value.
Face up to it mekubal. The only person who accepted this fool, made a similar mistake years ago, that parallels his mistake here.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteFrom YWN News Archives:
ReplyDeleteFebruary 15th, 2010
Rav Batzriis also quoted as discounting statements that the avreich may be mentally ill, insisting many have interviewed and checked the young man and this was determined to not be the case.
February 14th, 2010
Not everyone is convince there is a dibuk with some indicating mental illness is more likely, including Eida Chareidis Av Beis Din HaGaon HaRav Moshe Sternbuch Shlita, who was quoted at attributing the sounds emanating from the young Brazilian bachur to such illness when questioned in the case last month. It should also be noted that Maran Hagon Rav Elyashiv also refused to meet with the individual involving the Dibuk.
January 13th, 2010
Maran Rav Elyashiv Refused To Meet With Dibuk
Reports indicate the victim sought a bracha from Maran HaGaon HaRav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv Shlita, who reportedly stated “I have no business with dibuks”.
January 12th, 2010
HaGaon HaRav Sternbuch Reiterates: No Dibuk – Mental Illness
It appears Eida Chareidis Av Beis Din HaGaon HaRav Moshe Sternbuch appears determined to get the message across, that the reports of the Brazilian avreich infected with a dibuk are nothing more than a case of “mental illness”.
The Rav stressed in this case he believes the avreich is ill.
When asked if the Rav’s son attended the ceremony conducted by R’ David Batzri Shlita last week, the Rav confirmed this is true, explaining “he was curious. He wanted to go. What shall I do?”
January 10th, 2010
R’ Daniel Eidensohn in his ‘Daas Torah’ blog quotes Rav Moshe Sternbuch Shlita as saying there was no dibuk, but “mental illness”, adding he was urged by the Rav to write and article and publicize his words.
In addition, R’ Eidensohn in his report, quoting HaRav Sternbuch, that despite reports on various websites that he did, Rav Shternbach never issued a p’sak niddui against the dibuk to prevent any harm to Rav Batzri during the attempt to lure the dibuk out of the avreich.
Rav Sternbuch is also quoted as expressing surprise and dismay over the fact that thousands believe the reports of the man infected with a dibuk.
January 7th, 2010
Rabbi Batzri: ‘Get Out Dibuk!’
At one point, the dibuk appeared willing to leave the host, via an eye, but Rav Batzri shouted he does not have permission to harm the young man, ordering him to leave via the small toe of his left foot only, with causing any harm to the young man.
December 22nd, 2009
The bizarre report adds that HaRav Dovid Batzri, a known Mekubal, tried to remove the dibuk via Skype, without success, and now, the ‘infected’ avreich it is on its way to Israel.
From YWN News Archives:
ReplyDeleteFebruary 15th, 2010
Rav Batzriis also quoted as discounting statements that the avreich may be mentally ill, insisting many have interviewed and checked the young man and this was determined to not be the case.
February 14th, 2010
Not everyone is convince there is a dibuk with some indicating mental illness is more likely, including Eida Chareidis Av Beis Din HaGaon HaRav Moshe Sternbuch Shlita, who was quoted at attributing the sounds emanating from the young Brazilian bachur to such illness when questioned in the case last month. It should also be noted that Maran Hagon Rav Elyashiv also refused to meet with the individual involving the Dibuk.
January 13th, 2010
Maran Rav Elyashiv Refused To Meet With Dibuk
Reports indicate the victim sought a bracha from Maran HaGaon HaRav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv Shlita, who reportedly stated “I have no business with dibuks”.
January 12th, 2010
HaGaon HaRav Sternbuch Reiterates: No Dibuk – Mental Illness
It appears Eida Chareidis Av Beis Din HaGaon HaRav Moshe Sternbuch appears determined to get the message across, that the reports of the Brazilian avreich infected with a dibuk are nothing more than a case of “mental illness”.
The Rav stressed in this case he believes the avreich is ill.
When asked if the Rav’s son attended the ceremony conducted by R’ David Batzri Shlita last week, the Rav confirmed this is true, explaining “he was curious. He wanted to go. What shall I do?”
January 10th, 2010
ReplyDeleteR’ Daniel Eidensohn in his ‘Daas Torah’ blog quotes Rav Moshe Sternbuch Shlita as saying there was no dibuk, but “mental illness”, adding he was urged by the Rav to write and article and publicize his words.
In addition, R’ Eidensohn in his report, quoting HaRav Sternbuch, that despite reports on various websites that he did, Rav Shternbach never issued a p’sak niddui against the dibuk to prevent any harm to Rav Batzri during the attempt to lure the dibuk out of the avreich.
Rav Sternbuch is also quoted as expressing surprise and dismay over the fact that thousands believe the reports of the man infected with a dibuk.
January 7th, 2010
Rabbi Batzri: ‘Get Out Dibuk!’
At one point, the dibuk appeared willing to leave the host, via an eye, but Rav Batzri shouted he does not have permission to harm the young man, ordering him to leave via the small toe of his left foot only, with causing any harm to the young man.
December 22nd, 2009
The bizarre report adds that HaRav Dovid Batzri, a known Mekubal, tried to remove the dibuk via Skype, without success, and now, the ‘infected’ avreich it is on its way to Israel.
Matzav.com:
Video: Rav Batzri’s Dybbuk Exorcism in 1999
February 15, 2010
As for those who claim that the avreich is mentally ill, Rav Yitzchak Batzri stated, that is false. “Hundreds of people have already met him. He is a mentally healthy person,” he said.
11 January 2010
Rav Shternbuch Repeats: It’s Not A Dybbuk
December 24, 2009
Video: Rav Batzri Attempts Dybbuk Removal Via DybbukVision
Gedolei Yisroel saw right through this Brazilian faker.
ReplyDeleteTo claim that gedolim "refused to meet with him" is highly disingenuous.
ReplyDeleteThey recommended the "expert" in dybuks - Rabbi Botzri - and sent the dybuk carrier to him as they considered themselves unable to extract a dybuk. They never called the man a fraud or expressed disbelief in his story.
To claim that that is the equivalent of "refusing to meet with him" is absurd!
Rav Shternbach was the one who said it was mental illness and NOT a dybuk. So I'm sure Rabbi Shternbuch does not recommend Rav Botzri for mental illness but a doctor. His disbelief of the dybuk story cannot be attributed to other rabbis.
kikar hashabat report.
ReplyDeleteYet none of the Gedolim accepted this kook from Brazil's claims.
ReplyDeleteBen Torah,
ReplyDeleteSince you put so much stock in R' Eidensohn, I give you his own communique to me at the time.
the story is more complex. Rav Sternbuch's son was there and was in contact with his father by phone. He got all excited telling his father what was going on and Rav Sternbuch did in fact say to say in his name that the dybuk was in nidoi. That was based on his relying on his son's testimony. However when he gathered more evidence he realized that his son's testimony wasn't fully accurate and based on other evidence concluded that it was mental health. He never wrote a document or said that he was doing it to protect Rav Batzri. Unfortunately he didn't tell me this when he made is denial of the news accounts.
Clearly the story is not the way you would like to think that it is. Were there Gedolim who absolutely refuted this from the beginning, yes there were. They were, Rav O. Yosef, Rav Shlomo Amar, Rav Shalom Mordekai Hedayya, Rav Yaakov Hillel, and Rav Moshe Tzedaka to name but a few. When I asked the Roshei Yeshivot of Nahar Shalom, they said they hadn’t personally looked into so they couldn’t comment, though overall all it was best not to be overly involved with such things.
The Gedolei Yisroel, i.e. HaRav Elyashiv, HaRav Shteinman, HaRav Chaim Kanievsky, all refused to meet with the Brazilian. They can see what we can't. If we would just follow the gedolim, everything would fall in place.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure who met with him or not, but none of the gedolim accepted his claims of dibbuk.
ReplyDeleteI really don't care who met with him and who didn't, it mostly all seems to be speculation anyway. Matzav says they did...
ReplyDeleteThat aside, as the Kikar article that is sourced above points out, the Gedolim clearly thought, initially that it was a dybuk.
Now that there seems to be egg on their face, everyone is trying to say they all knew all along, and are trying to scapegoat Rav Batzri.
All of the gedolim knew this was a charade from the beginning. Look at all the stories from the time.
ReplyDeletemekubal - re: your latest comment.
ReplyDeleteExactly right. The gedolim, when the story first came out, gave credence to the story. They only sent him to Rav Batzri because they felt themselves unqualified to extract dybukkim. They certainly confirmed belief in the dybuk and possibility of dybukim-possessions such as described in this case.
You are right that it is only now, after the fact, when this case is proven a fraud, that the frum-robot media clowns are trying to pretend that "the gedolim" said it was false all along, as another "confirmation" of the gedolim's all-seeing powers - even though this case was quite the opposite in fact.
At the time, only Rav Shternbuch was saying it's not a dybbuk at all, it's a mental illness. And yes, this brazilian was afflicted with a mental illness - the type where he is criminally deceptive and takes advantage of thousands of gullible irrational people.
None of the gedolim accepted it was a dyybuk. They simply sent him to Rav Batzri to figure out what the story was.
ReplyDeleteNone of the gedolim accepted it was a dyybuk. They simply sent him to Rav Batzri to figure out what the story was.
ReplyDeleteProof please?
We have a cited article from the time above, and other cited material saying the opposite. On the other side we have a bunch of people who are simply saying "not so."
That is not a credible argument, it is just... well an ostrich putting its head in the ground in hopes that the predator won't see it comes to mind.
More than one of the articles cited above say just that -- that they sent him to Rav Batzri; not that they said "yes, you got a dybbuk in you."
ReplyDeleteRav Elishiv:
ReplyDeleteI have no business with dibuks.
He could have said that the man has a mental illness. Instead he said that he refused to meet with him because he had a dybuk and Rav Eliashiv refuses to have dealings with dybukim.
Rav Shternbuch told his son to say in his name that the dybuk was in niduy.
The others(apparently not believeing that the man had a mental illness) either did or did not meet with him(it is a apparent that some did) and sent him to Rav Batzri for an exorcism!!!
If they all thought it was a mental illness why did they not send him to a mental health professional. Bikur Holim(just a few blocks from Rav Batzri's Yeshiva) has a full wing dedicated to mental health issues such as Jerusalem Syndrome.
mekubal:
ReplyDeleteThat is the craziest apologetic explanation you could have invented for being a mekubal.
When Rav Elyashev reportedly said "I have no business with dibuks", he is saying he has no business with the concept of dibuks and will not entertain a crazy man claiming to have a dibuk. Why should Rav Elyashev say the man is mentally ill? He isn't a physician or psychiatrist. The man could just as well have been mentally well, just lying and acting.
As far as Rav Shternbuch is concerned, Rabbi Eidensohn very clearly reported over here that Rav Shternbuch told him directly that he never put the so-called dybuk in niddoi and told Rabbi Eidensohn to make that clear to the public, and that this is a case of mental illness. Rav Shternbuch was the ONLY one who addressed this Brazilian's issue that got the issue right.
And as I clearly showed above, R' Eidensohn admittedly withheld information, the specific information that Rav Shternbuch did initially put the dybuk into niddoi and only later changed his mind.
ReplyDeleteTo say that Rav Eliahshiv has no business with the concept of dybukim is actually quite problematic, as he has safe-guarded and seen to the publication of one of greatest commentaries on Kitvei Ha'Ari, the "Leshem" which was the work of his own father.
So why not drop the lies and smokescreens and just admit that this guy duped a good number of Gedolim(if he isn't lying now).
mekubal:
ReplyDeleteWho do you think your kidding when you anonymously try to insinuate that the godol HaRav Shternbuch shlit"a made a boldfaced lie to R. Eidensohn when he "categorically denied" (as R. Eidensohn posted and linked above) reports of any "involvement with the proclamation of nidoi" by him.
Harold,
ReplyDeleteI think I am the guy with the original email from Rabbi Eidensohn, which states just that. I think I am the guy with hard evidence to the contrary. In fact I am guy who just posted an image of the full unedited email where Rabbi Eidensohn states just that... here for anyone interested in the truth. So please feel free to continue with your delusions and your lies. Whatever needs to be done to protect the image of your own Gedolim.
All necessary evidence, as well as lack of any true anonymity is found on my blog. Feel free to see there.
ReplyDeletemekubal:
ReplyDeleteI don't see your name and location on your blog.
I don't see R. Eidensohn -- who owns this blog -- confirming your accusations that HaRav Shternbuch shlit"a is a boldfaced lier.
Then you apparently didn't look.
ReplyDeleteIt was an email from him R' Eidensohn.
Keep your head in the sand if you so desire.
Why R' Eidensohn doesn't own up to his own bad reporting... I can't say. Though I do have to wonder if trying to get that same Rabbi to back his book has something to do with it.
ReplyDeleteHarold,
ReplyDeleteYou should note that my accusation is not against Rav Shternbuch. He personally said nothing to the press. The blog owner was his mouth piece. The blog owner, knew from the start what was and was not true. The blog owner choose to withhold certain facts.
mekubal:
ReplyDeleteDon't try to shift the blame to R. Eidensohn. Rav Shterbuch shlit"a said very clearly he never made a proclamation of nidoi. So your two-bit accusation is against the godol hador.
r batzri became a millionare from the first dybuk...now takes thousands of dollars for bracha-tikkun...in other words he is bribed...can't see the truth...
ReplyDeleteThis wasn't the first time a so-called dybuk turned out to be a farce, that Rav Batri accepted as a dibbuk,
ReplyDeleteGadol Hador?!?!?! I have said nothing against HaRav HaGaom Rabbeinu Ovadiah Yosef Shlit"a. The only Rav I know of that is worthy of the title Gadol Hador hasn't even entered this conversation.
ReplyDeleteOther than blog owner, to whom is Rav Sternbuch make that proclamation? Every news source that I saw, everyone sited above, claims this very blog as its source. I have given you evidence, black on white, that the blog owner himself knew that Rav Shternbuch initially credited the Dybuk as being real. Your denials are backed by no evidence. Unless you can refute the evidence thus laid before you, you are left sounding like those who claimed Tropper was innocent.
Just looked at mekubals posted email. It doesn't demonstrate much, as it doesn't indicate anywhere on what basis or authority the emails author asserted the info regarding Rav Shternbuch's SON's supposed interactions with his father.
ReplyDeleteHarold, THE Godol Hador I would say is HaRav Shalom Yosef Elyashev shlita, although you are correct that HaRav Moshe Shternbuch is also a Godol Hador, and mekunal insinuations are mevaze talmid chochom, which can potentially place him as an apikorus.
ReplyDeleteIn 1999 Rav Batzri shlita also had a Dybbuk Exorcism, that the person later admitted was a hoax like this one.
ReplyDeletehttp://matzav.com/video-rav-batzris-dybbuk-exorcism-in-1999
Your discussion reminds me of the disputes between villages in Spain, each one defending their "holy virgin". "La unica verdadera vergin es la de Santa Maria de las Gracias, la vergin de Riveras de Alhamos es una puta..."
ReplyDeleteI think it is OK for each and every one of you to believe that your Rebbe is a great saint, the only one you personally would trust. But from there to go and insult other rebbes is too much arrogance in my view.
It just makes Torah look so ridiculous. You are like soccer fans, each one defending his club and insulting the one of the neighbouring city.
Strange personality --
ReplyDeleteWhere in this discussion do you see anyone "insult other rebbes" as you put it? Can you cite specifically which comment you refer to?
Thanks
Here are examples of what I was referring to:
ReplyDelete"Gadol Hador?!?!?! I have said nothing against HaRav HaGaom Rabbeinu Ovadiah Yosef Shlit"a. The only Rav I know of that is worthy of the title Gadol Hador hasn't even entered this conversation."
"Harold, THE Godol Hador I would say is HaRav Shalom Yosef Elyashev shlita, although you are correct that HaRav Moshe Shternbuch is also a Godol Hador, and mekunal"
Alias: My Gadol hador is the only true gadol hador, your gadol hador is nothing but...
Like soccer fans... Or Spaniards uplifting their local vergin, back in their time (I do not know whether they still exist).