Tuesday, August 8, 2023

Expert's evaluation is like a beis din & witnesses



Igros Moshe(Y.D. 2:103): Concerning the matter of a teacher who wants to punish a student that he has warned (Makkos 8b)… Certainly a teacher needs to punish a student for that which he clearly did - but not for mere suspicions. This is also true even if the teacher thinks that there is clearly circumstantial evidence that the student committed the prohibited act. It is not permitted for any person in the world to rely on his own opinion in order to punish even the slightest – unless he has clear knowledge and witnesses. Even for a matter which is only worth pennies (peruta) it is necessary to have witnesses and surely for corporal punishment which is worth more than money. In fact the teacher’s right to punish is not any different then a beis din for which mere suspicion is irrelevant to punish. However there is an apparent contradiction found in Makkos (8b) that even though a student has learned his lesson it is still permitted to punish him? But that is only if according to the student’s ability he is able to learn more Torah than he does because he is lazy and doesn’t work hard. In such a case he can be punished even though the student in fact had learned his lesson and doesn’t waste his time. But if the student does not look deeply into the matter because of his laziness then it is appropriate to punish him. This action is based only on the evaluation of the teacher because his expertise makes this something obvious to him and it is within his competence to judge these matters and it is impossible to go to beis din to judge this matter. There are obviously other matters that occur regularly to either a rav or a teacher and his students that they judge according to their understanding without bringing in witnesses and judges. These judgments that a rav or a teacher make without testimony of witnesses before a beis din is similar to what we find in Shulchan Aruch (C.M. 35:14) that in circumstances where men don’t typically go – there is an ancient decree to believe women. And similarly a rav or a teacher and his students, it is a very common that he is forced to rely on his expert opinion alone in deciding what actions to take. Nevertheless this knowledge has to be something that is clear to him and not mere suspicions. Furthermore if there are any doubt or suspicions concerning one of his students in a matter that is improper, it is necessary to first speak to him in a way that draws him closer to Torah and keeps him away from the suspected behavior. However if it clearly known to the teacher that it is necessary for the student to be punished, then it is proper to punish him calmly and not with anger or upset….

11 comments :

  1. I have a question.

    Is there a chiyuv for a beais din or individual rav to punish a proven guilty party? Or, does a beis din have dioscretion and if so, what is the makor for that?

    ReplyDelete
  2. I have a question.

    Is there a chiyuv for a beais din or individual rav to punish a proven guilty party? Or, does a beis din have discretion and if so, what is the makor for that?

    ReplyDelete
  3. If there is no formal beis din and no formal witnesses - then there is no obligation to punish. In these cases the major issues is deterrent not punishment

    ReplyDelete
  4. To be clear: What constitutes a 'formal' beis din? Are you saying a standing beis din is the only formal beis din?

    Is an assembled beis din equally valid?

    I'm curios as to the standing of the Monsey/Tropper beis din.

    ReplyDelete
  5. it is necessary to have witnesses and surely for corporal punishment

    So we see Rav Moshe paskens corporal punishment is a tool Yidden use.

    we find in Shulchan Aruch (C.M. 35:14) that in circumstances where men don’t typically go – there is an ancient decree to believe women.

    And in other circumstances we don't believe them.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Menachem Genack wants to make sure with the Reform rabbis that the Left wing agenda gets pushed through to legalize all the illegal immigrants working for OU clients.

    http://jewschool.com/2010/03/15/21750/ready-for-immigration-reform-heres-what-you-can-do/

    Sunday March 21, 6pm

    Learn about the Jewish imperative to call for immigration reform on a conference call with Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.), Rabbi David Saperstein (Reform), Rabbi Morris Alan (Conservative) and Rabbi Menachem Genack (Orthodox) and other leaders.

    Register Here: http://www.jcua.org/immigrationcall.

    ReplyDelete
  7. How does this apply to identifying the bones of ancient graves, can we rely on expert archaeologists / scientists?

    ReplyDelete
  8. @ Ish Emes

    What revolting nonsense.

    Nothing of the sort is "well known" at all. In fact, the distinguished poseq & rosh kollel R' Rakeffet Rothkoff, in a posting
    [ http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/740330/Rabbi_Aaron_Rakeffet-Rothkoff/2009-12-21_Press_Conference ]
    copied on this blog
    [ http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/01/r-aaronrakeffet-rothkoff-contemporary.html ]
    reported just the opposite.

    And why would it be DT's task to publicize your lashon hara? Potential suitors can't investigate for their own children the status of the shidduch? They need the help of unsubstantiated rumor spread out into the public domain, an entire generation before the shidduch would be nogeia, to "save" them? Well, how convenient that such "help" comes valiantly in the form of your wagging, accusatory finger. And you call that bravery! What's more, you take another to task for not "living up" to such a madrega!! Unbelievable.

    You're a hypocrite masked as a baal halakha, and a chillul H' on top of it. Words do not suffice for the likes of you.

    @DT: I presume you found good cause to post "Ish Emes"'s trash of a Comment, but what that good cause is escapes me....

    ReplyDelete
  9. DT-

    This is not a forum for attacking named individuals. I imagine the natural exception would be someone wantonly & defiantly making themselves a danger to others--i.e., the likes of Tropper.

    So how do you justify permitting such talk?

    ReplyDelete
  10. This is not a forum for attacking named individuals. I imagine the natural exception would be someone wantonly & defiantly making themselves a danger to others--i.e., the likes of Tropper.

    So how do you justify permitting such talk?
    =============
    just removed it. The question is one that has been raised publicly before and was answered well by Rabbi Rakefet.

    ReplyDelete

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