In my post-Belz visit talk yesterday with Rav Sternbuch he raised another issue - the Schalit deal. He is simply astounded that Israel is thinking about trading 1000 terrorist to redeem one Jew.
He stated two clear reasons that the deal is not acceptable 1) Our Sages say that one should not pay an unreasonable price to redeem captives because it only encourages more kidnappings. 2) The terrorists involved in the deal are all active criminals and this will result in harm to many Jews.
He stated two clear reasons that the deal is not acceptable 1) Our Sages say that one should not pay an unreasonable price to redeem captives because it only encourages more kidnappings. 2) The terrorists involved in the deal are all active criminals and this will result in harm to many Jews.
I heard a Dayan say it's a case of Bori V'Shemo. If It's Bori that irrespective they will continue their terrorist acts then you have to free him because they won't reform irrespective of what you do.
ReplyDeleteThis was on the net somewhere.
Yes, I find this issue quite interesting.
ReplyDeleteThe term Pidyon Shevuim is wielded for every criminal's defense funds, but when it comes to real Pidyon Shevuim, as in this case, the Torah prohibits it because the price is too high...
I mean: I understant the problem of unreasonable demands and precedents. But isn't it ironic that the sages speak out against Pidyon Shevuim in the only real case of Pidyon shevuim I have come across during the last years?
regarding reason number 1, I would like to know what would be considered a reasonable price - 1:1? a different ratio?
ReplyDeletewe keep hearing opposition form rabbonim based on the value, but we never hear what would be an acceptable ratio
When Hamas shows up at the exchange with Shalit in a coffin, expaining with all sincerity that he fell and died on the way, what will the Israelis do? Cancel the deal? Or will they shrug, accept the body and hand over 1000 murderers?
ReplyDeleteAnd then how many more days until the next soldier is kidnapped?
Meanwhile, the pseudo-gedolim have been busy with "pidyon shvuyim" for scoundrels - molesters and ganovim - in the medina shel chesed America that only incarcerated them because of the enormity of their crimes. There is no pidyon shvuyim according to R' Shlomo Zalman & R' Zelig so the oylam goylem is wasting their money. These supposedly pious people are also sure to reoffend if they get off the hook.
ReplyDelete1. The Bori V'Shemo point is interesting. Would like to know more about it.
ReplyDelete2. Does R. Shterbuch advocate differently for talmedi chachamim? Does he think that no price is too much for a "talmid chacham", however that term is defined? Just curious, I have no idea.
3. Ombudsman - dont be a fool. Any money raised to help unfortunates awaiting trial in the prison system are either for legal fees - meaning they have not yet had a trial and are not "ganovim and molesters" - or are simply to make a very sad life behind bard just a little more comfortable. If you cant understand that, then you ought to check your lineage, somewhere along the line you may not be fully Jewish.
regarding reason number 1, I would like to know what would be considered a reasonable price - 1:1? a different ratio?
ReplyDelete---------------------------------
YES ABSOLUTELY!!!
One dead Palestinian terrorist for every day that Schalit spends in captivity. We already have a 1000 most wanted list. I say line them up against a wall and start with #1 most wanted non-negotiable murderer and work your way down.
The world will undoubtedly say that it is a war crime, though the Geneva conventions do not apply to terrorists or spies. The world will learn a lesson that it has unfortunately forgotten however, that Jewish blood does not come cheap.
these hamas fellows in prison are definately going to reoffend and murder more jews straight upon release from prison, as long as they are behind bars this will not happen. This has been proven time and time again after every single prisoner release.
ReplyDeleteIn my humble opinion, the halachic reasoning no longer applies now that Israel has a long history of giving unreasonably for the return of a body or a crooked businessman with army secrets. It may well be that at the outset if Israel had stayed firm and refused to give more than one for one that it would not be in this predicament, but the Arabs already know that given the right set of circumstances Israel will pay a high price, and they already know it pays to kidnap and capture. It seems like making a halachic point on the back of this one kid is cruelty.
ReplyDeleteTo the one who deludes himself into thinking that he is a chochom,
ReplyDeleteThey are raising money for the likes of the pedophile Colmer who was arrested in Israel after fleeing there from Brooklyn via Passaic under the alias "Dovid Cohen".
Colmer destroyed the lives of dozens of children.
The phony "gedolim" tried to keep him from being arrested and Ohel, under their krumma direction, just let him drop out of the rehab program. The reoffend rate for these sick people is 99% or more.
The whole time that he was in Rikers pre-trial custody they were trying to raise $1 million bail. They couldn't raise that much for an unconnected BT but they raised even more for the pedophile named Mutterperl.
And with Rubashkin, the money raised has been going to pay for alla minei shtussim and likely even things that are illegal. This is accompanied with his azus that he never did anything wrong that is backed up by the disgraceful Agudah & OU.
If you have no problem covering up every chilul Hashem and enabling criminals to reoffend then maybe you should check your own yichus before mouthing off.
From Chachom (I dont know how that names was given to me, I just signed as anonymous)
ReplyDeleteOmbudsman, soemthing is wrong with your head. Do you even know what the "alleh mineh shtussim" are that Rubaskin is accused of?? No, of course you dont. You dont even know that a union was behind all of these charges, do you? No, of course you dont. And you dont know anything about law, so you dont know that any company targeted by an extortionist union can also be found guilty of federal violations. You idiot, think before you open your big mouth.
And he "destroyed the lives of dozens of children", did he? He DESTROYED their lives, eh? How exactly? He cut off their arms? He blinded them? HAS HE EVEN BEEN CONVICTED??? Even if has been convicted, how did he destroy their lives? Children spend five years in a concentration camp but come out to become millioanires and raise families - but THESE children have been DESTROYED?
Your rhetoric is dumb and over the top. I cant be bothered to respond to such stupidity anymore.
I don't have to do anything for the readers to see what the "Chochom" is all about. Everytime he opens his mouth he sounds even more foolish. Rav Eidensohn obviously has a sense of humor in assigning him a name that is a misnomer if ever there was one.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, he seems to have trouble reading so let me water it down to his level of elementary understanding. The shtussim are the things that the Rubashkin pidyon vaad are spending money on.
If anyone thinks Rubashkin was convicted because he crossed the unions, they are extremely naive and falling for the conspiracy theory invented by the Agudah & Chabad to brainwash the masses. Rubashkin was breaking laws & hilchos kashrus for years. It was because he was so arrogant and feifed on everyone telling him to be mesaken that 4 freye Congressmen were enraged enough that they asked the Agriculture Secretary to come down hard on him. Rubashkin missed countless opportunities to avoid the raid and the OU are also shuldiks for not reining him in.
There is a teshuva from Rav Wosner that child molesters have a din of rodef because they essentially destroy the child's life. This is because a child is more impressionable than an adult and they can never shake the ill feelings for the rest of their lives. Other gedolei haposkim concur.
It is also amazing how insensitive he is even while ignorant of the halacha. It is also apparent from what he writes that he could use some anger management therapy.
I am gratified to learn that Rav Shternbuch came out with this Psak. Without getting into the Halacha but things he said are factually true. The terrorists will try again. Even worse, this will encourage them to try and capture another soldier chas veshalom. Israel should use the military option to free Shalit bekarov mamesh.
ReplyDeleteI find Rabbi Shternbuch's position very sensible and logical.
ReplyDeleteTo Isaac Balbin: You wrote: "I heard a Dayan say it's a case of Bori V'Shemo. If It's Bori that irrespective they will continue their terrorist acts then you have to free him because they won't reform irrespective of what you do."
This doesn't make any sense. We don't need them to reform if they stay in jail and are unable to perform in their terrorist profession behind bars. The reluctance to free terrorists has nothing to do with any vain hope of 'reforming' them. That would be rather naive and unempirical given the astounding statistics of those released in the past and their observed subsequent activities upon release. The real hesitance is the endangering of the lives of victims whom these released terrorists will claim Chas VeShalom upon resuming their activities. It has happened many times in the past.
Can you post Rav Sternbuch's Psak on IVF?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous: The Dayan said it's Bori that they will attack yidden with or without releasing the terrorists. He argued that since that situation doesn't change, then releasing the captive is a chiyuv. It would only be in the case where releasing the captive caused more problems or if there was a question about it, that one would not seek to release the captive. Here, he argues, they will continue looking for Yidden and killing Yidden in one way or another. That's not the Matzav of the Maharam MiRotenburg where the captive was THE method for exacting payment from Jews. Here he argues nothing changes!
ReplyDeleteI wish I could remember where I saw the video. I think it was either on Matzav or YWN
I explained Rav Schwartz's position in my post at my blog.
ReplyDeleteAt the end is the link to the video on Bechadrei
thanks, yes, that's the dayan i meant
ReplyDeleteI'd be interested to hear R' Shternbuch's reaction to his argument.
But those actual prisoners that are released are the ones who will be attacking Jews!
ReplyDeleteNo one ever had the hava ameena (except if one is woefully ignorant of the situation) that releasing terrorists as a "gesture" will make the PLO decide it no longer believes in antisemitism and terrorism against Jews. So it is nonsensical to base oneself on such a hava ameena.
But those actual prisoners that are released are the ones who will be attacking Jews!
ReplyDeleteNo one ever had the hava ameena (except if one is woefully ignorant of the situation) that releasing terrorists as a "gesture" will make the PLO decide it no longer believes in antisemitism and terrorism against Jews. So it is nonsensical to base oneself on such a hava ameena.
That's strange. I only left that comment once, and I did so under "anonymous." What gives?
ReplyDelete