Everyone in that video is tainted and questionable especially the women who converted. What did they have to do to get through the process. Its horrible to say that but everyone's thinking it now.
When tropper was at his almighty and powerful the likes of you and your cronies Roni were obsessed with the wonderfulness of so called "rabbi" troper and his little "siksalach"; and souless jews . Now the sword Yossef Hazadick" has stuck him down- you have no arguments left other attacking the Blogger Das Torah as obbsesive at least B"H he is obsessive about Kudushas Yisroel - not promoting Nuif
I know a couple where the wife got converted through the EJF, they used to say that their (her) conversion is better than people who went via Bomzer’s conversion and used to put those people down. Now they will have to tell everybody who ask that they were converted by Tropper’s beis din and people will wonder...
Maybe they should go now to the RCA/Bomzer and beg them to give them giyur lechumra.
There was a rabbi who was famous for asking every Cohen he met to do a pidyon haben for him, in case all the previous Cohanim had not actually had the proper yichus. He stopped eventually when he met a Cohen who he felt had appropriately documented his ancestry.
Is this going to be the fate of converts in the early 5770s, going from beit din to beit din requesting one gerut l'chumra after another in the hopes that one of these batei din might be valid? And what of the children who are born to these converts, and their children? Will there ever be a time when a convert or the descendant of a female convert can relax and not feel like their Jewishness is forever hanging by a thread?
Well, personally, I'm done worrying about it. About a month ago I commented on Rabbi Maryles' blog that my judaism and Tropper's judaism weren't the same. Wow, I now can see just how true a statement that was! I am going to sit here very happily with my RCA MO geirus, thank you very much.
Larry, when I think of the revoking conversions issue, I think of Dred Scott v. Sandford -- the infamous pre-Civil War Supreme Court case that held that free descendants of African slaves could never be U.S. citizens. That decision galvanized resistance to racism and contributed to the Civil War, which resulted in Constitutional amendments guaranteeing the citizenship and rights of black people. When converts can be revoked years later because another person converted by the same rabbi went off the derech, or because the person was found to be wearing pants, or because one of the members of the beit din believes the universe was more than 6000 years old, or whatever, this is treating gerim like second-class citizens, like they can never be treated equally. And it's against the Torah -- there's no basis in the classic halachic sources for revoking conversions, unless perhaps there is solid evidence that the person never intended to accept the mitzvos at all. Hopefully, as with Dred Scott, the fact that one of the main engineers of the Slifkin ban and the Charedi takeover of conversions will galvanize people to assert the proper halachic process for conversion -- any sincere convert approved by any three Orthodox rabbis is valid forever absent some very unusual and convincing proof of original insincerity. If some (for lack of a better word fundamentalist) Yeshivish communities insist on a belief that any conversion done by a rabbi who believes in the ancientness of the universe is invalid (even though the majority of rishonim believed that Chazal erred in science, as R' Slifkin has documented), then some people will need to do gerus l'chumra -- but only if they converted MO and decide to join a fundamentalist community.
This same EJF self-promotional pr video is posted on the MySpace page of a young lady by the name of "Shanon" from "Houston, US" open to public display that a number of recent posts on some blogs here and here have indicated is the alleged woman on the notorious Tropper tapes.
There are a few important things to note judging by the her own posts on that page:
1) She is obviously proud of her connection to EJF and to Rabbi Tropper because the EJF video has his image on it first before it starts rolling.
2) She loves Israeli and Jewish things judging by her clips of Israeli singers, and that would be so because she also:
3) Posts a video to "Aaronic Benediction with Beth Messiah" which means that she probably admires and has connections to Christian missionary and evangelical groups, who admire Israel and want to connect with Jews. Perhaps she was on her way to finding Judaism when she found Tropper instead, or perhaps not.
Putting these pieces together, it means that she had no problems seeking out the likes of Rabbi Troppper/EJF seeking a conversion and that she is still very proud of it on her MySpace page.
This revelation, that "Shanon" from Houston US on MySpace is one and the same as the lady in Houston, Texas, as Tropper notes, on the tapes with Tropper seeking his thrills. This may well be the next stage of the revelations promised by the "Ezekiel 8:Groups 12/13" that has felled Tropper once and for all.
Yet another blogger speaks openly of the now-known identity of Tropper's alleged "mistress" in Houston, Texas: "Is The World 6,000 Years Old?...Jimmy emails: Rabbi Leib Tropper is infamous for promoting and enforcing the requirement that converts believe that the world is less than 6000 years old....Well get this: Shannon Orand, his mistress, promoted a speech by Gerald Schroeder, the Orthodox apologist whose shtick is explaining the true age of the Earth is not a contradiction with the Torah! See here:
She approves of Schroeder?? OH NOES, her conversion can’t be valid!"
This is now out in open as the Chillul Hashem of it all spirals out of control. If the remaining EJF rabbis do not put an abrupt and honorable end to EJF and remove themselves fully and unconditinally from it in short order, then ALL they can expect is massive public ridicule, loss of their own prestige, and undermine whatever shred of remaining trust many had in the geirus system that EJF/Tropper shouted that they were pushing but in fact have undermined beyond anything imaginable.
She's a relatively well-known person, deals with Christian and Jewish missionary issues (whos side she's on is not clear) and seems to be working for Outreach Judaism headed by one of Tropper's arch foes Rabbi Tovia Singer who also happens to be Guma Aguiar's rabbi, and then again, does she? She may we the new Matta Hari double agent of the geirus world who brought down not generals but rabbis!
Her name is reported as "Shannon Orand" of Houston, Texas:
The tapes are now posted on YouTube in very clear high quality sound. The lady definitely announces her name as "Shannon Orand" in the first one. These tapes are very clear:
"Outreach Administration at Eternal Jewish Family"
RaP: What does that mean, that she was proselytizing? Was her own conversion compeleted? Who else endorsed her for this position and knew about it? Surely she was known to the ENTIRE EJF staff as well. Did Rav Reuven Feinsten endorse her and does he now take the blame for what happened to force Tropper's resignation? In light of the present scandal, Klal Yisroel deserves some honest answers.
"Past: Administration at Chabad Jewish Center; Media Public Relations / Radio Program Producer at Arutz 7 - The Tovia Singer Show; National Radio at Tovia Singer Show"
RaP: So she had done the outreach rounds and had connections to Tovia Singer and Chabad, both sworn enemies of Tropper.
"Outreach Administration Eternal Jewish Family (Non-Profit Organization Management industry)
July 2009 — Present (6 months)
The Eternal Jewish Family is an independent organization dedicated to the preservation of the authentic Jewish family, as is dictated by our Torah delivered to the Jewish nation on Mt. Sinai more than 3300 years ago. A primary focus of EJF is the halachic conversion of a non-Jewish spouse in an intermarriage.
To assure that all conversions are based on the authentic dictates of Torah and halacha, the Eternal Jewish Family follows the halachic guidelines of such noted Torah authorities as Harav Moshe Feinstein zt"l, Harav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt"l, Harav Yosef Sholom Eliyashuv shlit"a, Harav Shmuel Wosner shlit"a, Harav Reuven Feinstein shlit"a, as well as leading Sephardic authorities shlit"a.
The Eternal Jewish Family is affiliated with Horizons and the Kol Yaakov Torah Center of Monsey, New York. Founded 25 years ago under the inspiration of the late venerable sage Harav Yaakov Kaminetsky zt"l, Kol Yaakov has been a leading institution in the kiruv movement. Hundreds of its alumni have over the years assumed leadership positions in Jewish life throughout the world..."
RaP: Surely she could not have concocted this detail on her own, but here was this lady representing the greatest aspects of Judaism, talking about the greatest rabbis and Torah ideals, and at the same time there are now the terrible revelations of conversations she recorded with Tropper, that the "real deal" was something far different than what it says on this PR resume notice.
do you realize you have a problem,
ReplyDeleteyou are obssesed with leib tropper,
please go for help you need it
Everyone in that video is tainted and questionable especially the women who converted. What did they have to do to get through the process. Its horrible to say that but everyone's thinking it now.
ReplyDeleteI feel very sorry for the people whose lives Tropper has ruined.
ReplyDeleteIt is very very sad.
I think we speak for everyone when I say we are ALL obsessed with Tropper and other scumbags who abuse and misuse their positions.
ReplyDeleteWhen tropper was at his almighty and powerful the likes of you and your cronies Roni were obsessed with the wonderfulness of so called "rabbi" troper and his little "siksalach"; and souless jews . Now the sword Yossef Hazadick" has stuck him down- you have no arguments left other attacking the Blogger Das Torah as obbsesive at least B"H he is obsessive about Kudushas Yisroel - not promoting Nuif
ReplyDeleteI know a couple where the wife got converted through the EJF, they used to say that their (her) conversion is better than people who went via Bomzer’s conversion and used to put those people down. Now they will have to tell everybody who ask that they were converted by Tropper’s beis din and people will wonder...
ReplyDeleteMaybe they should go now to the RCA/Bomzer and beg them to give them giyur lechumra.
There was a rabbi who was famous for asking every Cohen he met to do a pidyon haben for him, in case all the previous Cohanim had not actually had the proper yichus. He stopped eventually when he met a Cohen who he felt had appropriately documented his ancestry.
ReplyDeleteIs this going to be the fate of converts in the early 5770s, going from beit din to beit din requesting one gerut l'chumra after another in the hopes that one of these batei din might be valid? And what of the children who are born to these converts, and their children? Will there ever be a time when a convert or the descendant of a female convert can relax and not feel like their Jewishness is forever hanging by a thread?
To Larry
ReplyDeleteI believe you are reffering To the Vilna Goan ZZL
Well, personally, I'm done worrying about it. About a month ago I commented on Rabbi Maryles' blog that my judaism and Tropper's judaism weren't the same. Wow, I now can see just how true a statement that was! I am going to sit here very happily with my RCA MO geirus, thank you very much.
ReplyDeleteLarry, when I think of the revoking conversions issue, I think of Dred Scott v. Sandford -- the infamous pre-Civil War Supreme Court case that held that free descendants of African slaves could never be U.S. citizens. That decision galvanized resistance to racism and contributed to the Civil War, which resulted in Constitutional amendments guaranteeing the citizenship and rights of black people. When converts can be revoked years later because another person converted by the same rabbi went off the derech, or because the person was found to be wearing pants, or because one of the members of the beit din believes the universe was more than 6000 years old, or whatever, this is treating gerim like second-class citizens, like they can never be treated equally. And it's against the Torah -- there's no basis in the classic halachic sources for revoking conversions, unless perhaps there is solid evidence that the person never intended to accept the mitzvos at all. Hopefully, as with Dred Scott, the fact that one of the main engineers of the Slifkin ban and the Charedi takeover of conversions will galvanize people to assert the proper halachic process for conversion -- any sincere convert approved by any three Orthodox rabbis is valid forever absent some very unusual and convincing proof of original insincerity. If some (for lack of a better word fundamentalist) Yeshivish communities insist on a belief that any conversion done by a rabbi who believes in the ancientness of the universe is invalid (even though the majority of rishonim believed that Chazal erred in science, as R' Slifkin has documented), then some people will need to do gerus l'chumra -- but only if they converted MO and decide to join a fundamentalist community.
ReplyDeleteThis same EJF self-promotional pr video is posted on the MySpace page of a young lady by the name of "Shanon" from "Houston, US" open to public display that a number of recent posts on some blogs here and here have indicated is the alleged woman on the notorious Tropper tapes.
ReplyDeleteThere are a few important things to note judging by the her own posts on that page:
1) She is obviously proud of her connection to EJF and to Rabbi Tropper because the EJF video has his image on it first before it starts rolling.
2) She loves Israeli and Jewish things judging by her clips of Israeli singers, and that would be so because she also:
3) Posts a video to "Aaronic Benediction with Beth Messiah" which means that she probably admires and has connections to Christian missionary and evangelical groups, who admire Israel and want to connect with Jews. Perhaps she was on her way to finding Judaism when she found Tropper instead, or perhaps not.
Putting these pieces together, it means that she had no problems seeking out the likes of Rabbi Troppper/EJF seeking a conversion and that she is still very proud of it on her MySpace page.
This revelation, that "Shanon" from Houston US on MySpace is one and the same as the lady in Houston, Texas, as Tropper notes, on the tapes with Tropper seeking his thrills. This may well be the next stage of the revelations promised by the "Ezekiel 8:Groups 12/13" that has felled Tropper once and for all.
Yet another blogger speaks openly of the now-known identity of Tropper's alleged "mistress" in Houston, Texas: "Is The World 6,000 Years Old?...Jimmy emails: Rabbi Leib Tropper is infamous for promoting and enforcing the requirement that converts believe that the world is less than 6000 years old....Well get this: Shannon Orand, his mistress, promoted a speech by Gerald Schroeder, the Orthodox apologist whose shtick is explaining the true age of the Earth is not a contradiction with the Torah! See here:
ReplyDeletegroups.yahoo.com/group/Jewish_Houston/message/1133
She approves of Schroeder?? OH NOES, her conversion can’t be valid!"
This is now out in open as the Chillul Hashem of it all spirals out of control. If the remaining EJF rabbis do not put an abrupt and honorable end to EJF and remove themselves fully and unconditinally from it in short order, then ALL they can expect is massive public ridicule, loss of their own prestige, and undermine whatever shred of remaining trust many had in the geirus system that EJF/Tropper shouted that they were pushing but in fact have undermined beyond anything imaginable.
Tropper's mysterious tape lady emerges online.
ReplyDeleteShe's a relatively well-known person, deals with Christian and Jewish missionary issues (whos side she's on is not clear) and seems to be working for Outreach Judaism headed by one of Tropper's arch foes Rabbi Tovia Singer who also happens to be Guma Aguiar's rabbi, and then again, does she? She may we the new Matta Hari double agent of the geirus world who brought down not generals but rabbis!
Her name is reported as "Shannon Orand" of Houston, Texas:
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.channel&contributorId=26064820
and as mentioned here:
http://lukeford.net/blog/?p=14528
who also cites:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jewish_Houston/message/1133
by: "Shannon
Female
Houston, TX 77071 US"
see:
http://profiles.yahoo.com/orandfamily
what "family" by the way is talking about?? when it's another photo of her.
Google her name and you get a huge amount of information about her activities:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Shannon+Orand%22&btnG=Search&aq=f&aql=&aqi=&oq=
The tapes are now posted on YouTube in very clear high quality sound. The lady definitely announces her name as "Shannon Orand" in the first one. These tapes are very clear:
ReplyDeleteSee:
The Rabbi Leib Tropper tapes - Tape 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlacLILZ5Kw
The Rabbi Leib Tropper tapes - Tape 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVywvjQu_SA
(can't locate tape 3)
The Rabbi Leib Tropper tapes - Tape 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfHOAszAVsw
The Rabbi Leib Tropper tapes - Tape 5
(Rebbetzin Leba Tropper allegedly speaking, told about being taped)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cuuqWeFIq4
Shannon Orand was an EJF employee in Houston Texas until very recently, according to her resume as posted on Linked:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/shannon-orand/13/5b0/261
In her resume she states:
"Outreach Administration at Eternal Jewish Family"
RaP: What does that mean, that she was proselytizing? Was her own conversion compeleted? Who else endorsed her for this position and knew about it? Surely she was known to the ENTIRE EJF staff as well. Did Rav Reuven Feinsten endorse her and does he now take the blame for what happened to force Tropper's resignation? In light of the present scandal, Klal Yisroel deserves some honest answers.
"Past: Administration at Chabad Jewish Center; Media Public Relations / Radio Program Producer at Arutz 7 - The Tovia Singer Show; National Radio at Tovia Singer Show"
RaP: So she had done the outreach rounds and had connections to Tovia Singer and Chabad, both sworn enemies of Tropper.
"Outreach Administration
Eternal Jewish Family
(Non-Profit Organization Management industry)
July 2009 — Present (6 months)
The Eternal Jewish Family is an independent organization dedicated to the preservation of the authentic Jewish family, as is dictated by our Torah delivered to the Jewish nation on Mt. Sinai more than 3300 years ago. A primary focus of EJF is the halachic conversion of a non-Jewish spouse in an intermarriage.
To assure that all conversions are based on the authentic dictates of Torah and halacha, the Eternal Jewish Family follows the halachic guidelines of such noted Torah authorities as Harav Moshe Feinstein zt"l, Harav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt"l, Harav Yosef Sholom Eliyashuv shlit"a, Harav Shmuel Wosner shlit"a, Harav Reuven Feinstein shlit"a, as well as leading Sephardic authorities shlit"a.
The Eternal Jewish Family is affiliated with Horizons and the Kol Yaakov Torah Center of Monsey, New York. Founded 25 years ago under the inspiration of the late venerable sage Harav Yaakov Kaminetsky zt"l, Kol Yaakov has been a leading institution in the kiruv movement. Hundreds of its alumni have over the years assumed leadership positions in Jewish life throughout the world..."
RaP: Surely she could not have concocted this detail on her own, but here was this lady representing the greatest aspects of Judaism, talking about the greatest rabbis and Torah ideals, and at the same time there are now the terrible revelations of conversations she recorded with Tropper, that the "real deal" was something far different than what it says on this PR resume notice.
How sad it all is.