Wednesday, December 17, 2008

EJF - revised video


Videos -Eternal Jewish Family - Preservation Of The Jewish Culture

Video about EJF's dedication to promote the concept of universally accepted conversions in intermarriage as a way of preserving the Jewish family.

17 comments :

  1. Since when does "kiruv" mean "bringing people closer to their Jewish destiny" ?(6:16 in the video).

    Is there a source for this belief in Judaism?

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  2. Recipients and PublicityDecember 18, 2008 at 9:00 AM

    This is an old video of theirs and does not break any new ground.

    The video is old and has been on their site for a while and reflects the situation at EJF PRIOR to the rejection of EJF by Rav Hirschel Schechter of YU and the RCA (after he was publicly insulted and rejected by Rav Nochum Eisenstein at an EJF convention claiming to speak for Rav Eliashiv) and with that departure EJF lost the backing and respect of the YU/RCA/Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist world entirely who now prefer to work and negotiate with the Israel Chiefr Rabbinate directly in setting standards without EJF/Rabbi Tropper trying to act as an unsolicited middleman.

    Also since this vieo was made, EJF and Rabbi Tropper were roundly condemned by Rav Shternbuch, a noted posek, author of many published highly-regarded responsa and seforim, a rov who has served in many different communities and has had experinece with non-religious Jews and their issues, and who serves as a dayan of the prestigious Bais Din (BADATZ) of the Eidah HaCharedis in Yerushalayim who together with the entire BADATZ of the Eidah sent out written letters to Recipients of all Batei Din involved with EJF and authorised Publicity on this very blog by Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah that warns any rabbis and Batei Din NOT to get involved with EJF and in effect ordered Rabbi Tropper (as a Charedi rabbi) and EJF (as his project) to CEASE and DESIST from their/his proselytising actvities to gentiles who are married or hitched to Jews.

    The video also precedes by a long time the recent break in public unity, and probably in much more, between Rabbi Tropper and EJF and his former key ally Rabbi Nochum Eisenstein and his Vaad Ha'olami Leinyanei Giur and its Bais Din under the auspices of Rav Eliashiv that was the original effort to streamline procedures of conversion in Batei Din around the world that wish to work with his Bais Din Leinyanei Giur, which is also working with the Israeli Chief Rabbinate's Batei Din to co-ordinate efforts (often it is to stop and put rabbis and Batei Din on notice that they are over-stepping matters) for conversions and raise the standards and procedures for conversion.

    So this video does not represent the current situation but harks back to the "good old days" when EJF was still an unknown quantity, with the jury being out, whereas now the verdict has been coming in for the past two years with both the left (YU/RCA) and right (EIDAH/BADATZ) wings not just gone but attacking EJF and Rabbi Tropper and its main ally, the Vaad Ha'olami, detached and probably waiting for EJF to submit to its wihes rather than the other way around.

    Just a few more observations, and this raises some points to be clarified:

    1) What if rabbis have been pictured and videotaped meeting with Rabbi Tropper at past conventions, does that mean he and EJF have the right to then use that footage as propaganda in perpetuity to make their cause seem stronger and more accepted than it really is as time goes on?

    2) If Rabbi Reuven Feinstein can be taped showing him praising EJF, in the name of Rav Eliashiv yet, why can't he simply put all that oral verbiage down in writing as is the commom Torah way when it comes to endorsements (haskomas and hamlotzes) of such major efforts?

    3) It is very amusing that for this "holiest of efforts" by EJF, with so many Haredi rabbis shown, the chosen background music that is so strongly and obviously broadcast comes from Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach (the singing rabbi) music when he is known to have been so controversial himself?

    Perhaps it is because Rabbi Tropper is known to have been close to the late Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach a"h (and is known to defend him vehemently if anyone says not nice things about Shlom Carlebach) one of the first and greatest pioneers of kiruv starting in the 1950s. But unfortunately Rabbi Carlebach became very controversial for his methods and actvitivies, and despite his wonderful and wondrous music and stirring songs, leading Rosh Yeshivas, such as Rav Aharon Kotler and Rav Hutner, who were also his teachers, banned his music, and one reason being that Rabbi Carlebach took his outreach too far and eventually succumbed to the lures of "loving" Jews and gentiles too much to his own detriment and downfall, so that his music may perhaps be emblematic and epiphanous of what's going wrong with EJF's "outreach" to gentiles: They are being far too welcoming when they should not be.

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  3. Recipients and Publicity said...

    This is an old video of theirs and does not break any new ground.
    =================
    While it is true that the video is a revised version of their previous videos - it is interesting what they left out.

    In particular the interview with the psychiatrist saying how important it is for shalom bayis to have a single religion in the home. In other words the message of proselytizing has ben softened and toned down.

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  4. It is interesting to point out that some of the couples and the families featured in the original video, the one that was shown in the Jersey and florida conferences are not observant anymore, included the couple tropper grabbed from rabbi bomzer.

    Those couples are the jewel in the crown of ejf, so that much for ejf supposedly "high standards"

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  5. Shlomo Carlbach is a cousin of Tropper. He accused of more than being a controversial keiruv professional, he is being accused of child molestation. There are survivors who came forward.

    http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/carlebach_shlomo.html#Testmonials

    Why Tropper is attacking people who dare to mention it is beyond me.

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  6. As long as the people attacking RT here do not address one of the major causes for such an organization to exist, namely the proliferation of fake and phony conversions coupled with easy buck (that makes unfit to be dayanim), which brought and brings a bery high number of goyim as Jews, your attacks are of little effect and of little genuine and sincere motive.

    Rabbis like HB and others have for years been making false conversions with no request for kabbalat hamitzvot whatsoever and this known to many great posskim and dayanim (hwich is one of themain reasons they stood by Rt and even those who left him do not quarrel with the need to have such an organization to stem the tide of the fake dayanim's conversions.

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  7. after RHS was publicly insulted and rejected by Rav Nochum Eisenstein at an EJF convention claiming to speak for Rav Eliashiv

    could you elaborate?

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  8. Roni,

    You seem to repeat the same thing: "rabbi bomzer conversions are bad, tropper conversion are good. Rabbi bomzer makes money out of conversions, tropper do not"

    So tell us
    (1) how many of the couples/families in the first movie are still orthodox.
    (2) Did tropper also add his own conversion to ellen kaplan and guma ?
    (3) How much money tom and guma gave kol yaakov?
    (4) Does tropper take salary from ejf?
    (5) If not what is his source of income.

    It would be helpful to know that before you criticize other rabbis

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  9. MT,

    1) In *halacha* what matters mostly is the initial commitment to do mitzvot.

    2 - 3)> Go back to your bomzer mentor for his involvement in their conversion for BIG BUCKS. (as is his tradition in these matters).

    4-5 Irrelevant to the discussion of fake conversions halchikally where the rabbi who covnerts is passul to be a dayan. HB in many cases does not ask the converts to commit themseelves and many a times those converts live such a lfiestyle that any commitment to Torah and mtizvot is compeletely foreign. And if he takes monney (over schar batalah) his dinim may be batel and the convesions possul even bediavad!

    Before you go on on tropper fix HB and then come back to T

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  10. Recipients and PublicityDecember 21, 2008 at 6:00 AM

    "fred said...
    after RHS was publicly insulted and rejected by Rav Nochum Eisenstein at an EJF convention claiming to speak for Rav Eliashiv

    could you elaborate?"

    Hi fred, sure, an excellent report and background to your question can be found at Rabbi Gil Student's Hirhurim blog at Conversion and the Age of the Universe (November 09, 2007): "A commenter posted here and on other blogs that at this week's conference of the Eternal Jewish Family, R. Nachum Eisenstein announced from the podium that R. Yosef Shalom Elyashiv told him that any rabbi who believes that the world is more than approximately 6,000 years old is a heretic and may not perform conversion (link). I have confirmed the essence of the story -- that R. Eisenstein said such a thing to the audience. I have not confirmed whether R. Elyashiv actually told him that.

    Generally speaking, my attitude towards R. Elyashiv's rulings is that they are Torah and a mitzvah to learn but not of particular interest over other areas of Torah and have no impact on my personal practice. In other words, I generally react with a "so what?" or "that's interesting". But in this case, this ruling can have a chilling effect on existing converts and future conversions. I personally know of rabbis with this belief who have performed many conversions.

    It seems clear to me that the Modern Orthodox rabbinate has, with this statement, been largely shut out from the ongoing talks about conversion standards. Perhaps this is a good thing. But what about the moderate Charedi rabbinate? Will they allow this to continue? Will they stand by quietly and watch the disqualification of R. David Tzvi Hoffmann, Rav Kook and R. Yitzchak Herzog?

    When the Rambam wrote that people who believe that God can appear corporeally are heretics, the Ra'avad disagreed and wrote that even though he does not believe in that he is not ready to declare such people to be heretics. Will any Ra'avads be standing up over the next few weeks to declare that this is overreaching and that "Gedolim ve-tovim mimenu" held such a view?"

    And at Conversion and the Age of the Universe II (November 14, 2007): "I was contacted by R. Leib Tropper, who presented at the recent EJF conference discussed in this post, and he offered the following clarifications (in my words, which he approved):

    1. R. Tropper does not believe that R. Eisenstein said in the name of Rav Elyashiv that someone who believes that the world is older than 6,000 years is a heretic. Rather, he is not worthy of being a dayan. Presumably, this means that the past conversions he performed are still valid.

    2. R. Tropper quoted Rav Chaim Kanievsky as saying that a person who believes that the Sages of the Talmud could have made mistakes should not be converted. He does not rule definitively on someone with that view who already converted.

    3. R. Tropper stated that dayanim should dress conservatively and that even secular courts have dress codes. However, he did not state that dayanim who do not dress appropriately are disqualified from serving as dayanim.

    4. R. Tropper also said from the podium that it is the opinion of R. Elyashiv and R. David Feinstein that a Beis Din performing a conversion should release the "Te'udah" (certificate) immediately so that the convert can move on.

    My comments:

    1 & 2. It is impossible to have truly universal standards for conversion (and dayanim) because the standards of different communities are contradictory and, even if not, would be incredibly restrictive. For example, the Satmar community would demand that Zionists cannot be dayanim because they are heretics. I do not know how literally they take this, but the Satmar Rav wrote that anyone who votes in an Israeli election has the halakhic status of an idolator and, presumbly, is disqualified from serving as a dayan. On the other side, there are communities that follow the rulings of the Rambam and Maharal that those who pray to angels or human beings (including rebbes) are heretics. Should we disqualify from serving as a dayan anyone who is a Zionist or recites "makhnisei rachamim"? I don't see how that is possible. If you are a follower of Satmar or of an ultra-Rationalist, then you must follow those rulings and disqualify as dayanim as above. But if that is the case, then you should not be trying to institute "universal" standards that exclude large segments of the current Orthodox community.

    If (and I stress IF) Rav Elyashiv holds that the majority of Orthodox rabbis in the US--including the most active dayanim in America who oversee hundreds of gittin and conversions a year--are disqualified for serving as dayanim, then his followers must abide by that ruling. But I don't see how they can impose that on the general community or claim that by following him they are implementing standards that are anywhere near universal. As above, truly universal standards are impossible. Close-to-universal standards would be as inclusive as possible, not incredibly divisive and exclusive.

    3. I think every rabbi and dayan agrees that dayanim should dress appropriately. The question is what is considered appropriate, and on this standards differ based on time and place. No one would require dayanim to dress the way dayanim in Rambam's Egypt dressed, nor in Rav Ashi's Bavel. Therefore, I don't know that an out-of-town rabbi should need to dress according to Boro Park fashion, nor should a Boro Park dayan need to dress according to Wall Street fashion. Colored shirts and wedding bands may raise eyebrows in Monsey but in Teaneck they are considerable respectable, formal and wholly appropriate.

    4. Nothing to add."

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  11. Recipients and PublicityDecember 21, 2008 at 1:16 PM

    roni keeps on firing back with his one track answers that revolve around Rabbi Herbert Bomzer and the genuine problem of fake conversions, but while noone denies that it's going on, it's not the issue being debated on this blog because what is on the table is how could Rabbi Tropper as a strict Haredi rabbi do what he is doing? While Rabbi Bomzer is neither Haredi nor does he have an allegiance to the Haredi and Yeshiva world that Rabbi Tropper belongs to and represents it strongly at all times.

    That is why all Modern Orthodox rabbis have by now totally cut any ties with Rabbi Tropper and EJF because they view him as being a representaaive of the Haredi world, and within the Haredi world, Rabbi Tropper has been ordered to stop and cease and desists from his activities via EJF as follows:

    1) Rav Moshe Sternbuch - [Problematic] Kiruv for non-Jews (August 10, 2007), signed original protest letter.

    2) HaRav Moshe Sternbuch: Kiruv for someone with a Jewish father and a non‑Jewish mother (August 10, 2007) and official translation:

    "A number of months ago, I had been asked to host a young man for Shabbos by a kiruv organization. During the Shabbos meal he expressed great interest in everything Jewish. When I asked him about his background, he mentioned that even though he had been raised as a non‑Jew by his non‑Jewish mother - but since his father was Jewish he knew he was Jewish. I was shocked by the revelation but said nothing to the young man. After Shabbos I asked the director of the program why he had sent me a non‑Jew for Shabbos? He replied that he had received a halachic ruling from an American rav who allowed participation of a non‑Jew – who viewed himself as Jewish. This was so even though the program had a mixture of boys and girls and there was a danger of intermarriage of the participants. I have since found out that this is not an isolated incident but in fact reflects the decision by certain individuals in kiruv to proselytize those who have a Jewish father. I mentioned this information to Rav Moshe Sternbuch. After gathering information from other sources, he wrote the following psak which he requested me to translate and disseminate. Daniel Eidensohn.

    HaRav Moshe Sternbuch shlita: Kiruv for someone with a Jewish father and a non‑Jewish mother.

    You ask what are the guidelines for kiruv programs - that encourage Jews to fully observe the Torah - which take place in religious schools or organized events. In particular should a person who is not halachically Jewish - because his mother is not Jewish but his father is - be encouraged or even allowed to participate? I have heard that there are rabbis who not only permit it but even encourage it, They assert that especially those people who already view themselves as Jewish – even though they are mistaken - should be encouraged to participate because they might eventually convert.

    My view is that it is absolutely forbidden to try to proselytize a non‑Jew even if he mistakenly views himself as Jewish. One obvious reason is that such an approach actually encourages intermarriage. If people with only a Jewish father are encouraged to participate in Jewish educational events it will convey the message that in some sense they are actually Jewish. That is because it is commonly accepted that only Jews are allowed to participate in these events. Thus this innovation crosses the red lines that have always been accepted by Torah true Jews. Typically the intermarried couple does not realize that they are constantly transgressing prohibitions which carry the punishment of kares [Rambam Hilchos Issurei Bi’ah 12:6]. But at least they need to be aware that intermarriage cuts them off completely from the Jewish people. If we allow and even encourage their non‑Jewish offspring to participate in Jewish educational events, they will feel that they still have an intimate connection to the Jewish people – G‑d forbid!

    Another basis of concern is that I see this as a violation of following non‑Jewish practices (chukas akum). These rabbis are showing mercy to the Jewish father by a de-facto acknowledgment of the non‑Jewish concept of patrilineal descent. According to the unanimously held Torah view - any person with a non‑Jewish mother is completely non‑Jewish. Also the gratuitous granting of Jewish status and benefits to this non‑Jewish child violates the Torah prohibition of Lo Techanem.

    These rabbis also try to justify their innovation by claiming that it is a solution to the massive problem resulting from the intermarriage of Russian Jews. They assert that one should encourage the conversion of the child of a non‑Jewish mother because the Russian Jews intermarried because of the unfortunate circumstances under the Communists. Therefore they are to be regarded as innocent children who grew up in captivity (tinok shenishba). They feel it is appropriate to show special mercy on these unfortunate people. I agree that they should be shown special sensitivity and leniencies. However this is only when they have at least distanced themselves from their intermarried parents or have already indicated an interest in genuine conversion. However if the parents insist on continuing their intermarriage, there is no halachic basis to be sorry for them. The child in that case is a non‑Jew and will remain as such.

    Concerning the specific case that you mentioned of a student whose father is Jewish but the mother is a non‑Jew. One of the kiruv programs wants to include him – even though he still lives with his parents. You mentioned that a number of American rabbis have given halachic rulings that his participation in the program should be encouraged because he might convert. Do not associate yourself with their programs. You will receive much greater reward by disassociating from them than the possible benefit that might result.

    I am being deliberately brief in my comments here - even though there is clearly much more to mention. That is because the plague of intermarriage has already spread here to the Holy Land – the palace of the King. The Holy One Blessed be He should help us and quickly bring into actuality our Redemption. Eliyahu should come and purify our camp so that we are fit to receive the countenance of our righteous Moshiach."

    3) Kiruv for non-Jews with Jewish Identity II (August 24, 2007): "...Similarly there has been a major effort to actively pursue intermarried couples and using various techniques - representive of the best American marketing techniques - convince the non-Jewish spouse to convert. This latter approach is spearheaded by R' Leib Tropper of Yeshiva Kol Yaakov in Monsey. See his website [Eternal Jewish Family - Convert to Judaism, Jewish Conversion, Universally Accepted Halachic Conversions for Intermarried Couples ] - especially the videos of testimonials from satisfied customers. It has the official backing of Rav Eliyashiv, Rav Dovid Feinstein, Rav Reuven Feinstein as well as many others important rabbis. I have not been able to locate any written teshuvos dealing with this either - even though it also represents a major change in the traditional approach to this issue. I mentioned this information to Rav Moshe Sternbuch who found my revelations disturbing and he wrote a letter which he asked me to translate and distribute. He personally read and approved the translation..."

    4) Bedatz letter regarding conversion (November 18, 2007) signed original protest letter.

    5) Bedatz letter regarding conversion (November 18, 2007) official translation:

    "Bedatz letter regarding conversion

    Rav Sternbuch, shlita approved translation by Daniel Eidensohn

    ב"ה

    5th of Kislev 5768

    Concerning the Holiness of the Jewish People – the Holy Nation.

    The senior dayanim of the Bedatz met today to discuss allegations that certain kiruv activists are actively proselytizing the children of intermarried couples to convince them to convert – even though according to Torah law there is no halachic relationship with their Jewish fathers. They are calling for the acceptance of these non-Jewish children in Jewish programs and religious schools. Such an action is literally a disaster and self‑destructive. It is self‑evident that such a program is absolutely prohibited by the Torah.

    Furthermore until now anyone who wanted to marry a non‑Jewess – Heaven forefend! – knew very well that this act would sever them from the Jewish people forever. Because of the dire consequences of intermarriage, there was a strong barrier that prevented many from intermarrying. However now that the consequence of exclusion from the Jewish people has been removed - this motivation not to intermarry has been lost. Consequently these intermarried couples and their children remain amongst the Jewish people. This results in their non-Jewish children being accepted into religious schools out of the hope that they will eventually convert.

    Therefore we are warning that this activity is against the Torah. It has never been acceptable to proselytize non‑Jews. Furthermore as we mentioned it actually encourages intermarriage.

    We therefore are turning to the poskim and the roshei yeshivos not to participate in their conventions - such as the one that occurred in America last week. Even if their motivation was to improve the standards of conversions – they are making improvements in one area while making things worse in another. This approach is directly causing serious problems.

    Those who heed our cautions will benefit and receive blessings.

    We - the members of the Bedatz in Jerusalem - affix our signature to this document out of fear and concern for the holiness of the Jewish people – the holy nation.

    Horav Meir Brandsorfer
    Horav Moshe Sternbuch
    Horav Naftoli Frenkal
    Horav Avrohom Yitzchok Ulman
    Horav Yakov Mendel Yorovitch
    Horav Yehoushua Rosenberg
    "

    6) The Bedatz’s criticism of Eternal Jewish Family (December 4, 2007), article requested by [and published in] The Jewish Press(December 5, 2007):

    "The Bedatz of the Eidah Chareidis has recently brought some disturbing developments to our attention. [This is the actual Bedatz not an unofficial offshoot]. I must note that I am not a neutral observer in this matter. I played a minor role in aiding Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita obtain information from the Internet as well as translating and distributing two letters. [See my blog Daas Torah - http://daattorah.blogspot.com/ ] While I have some knowledge of Rav Moshe Feinstein’s zt”l views as the author Yad Moshe - my comments are what I have heard from Rav Sternbuch and other rabbonim.

    Last Chanukah, Rav Efrati described Rav Eliashiv’s views concerning teaching Torah in a non‑observant community which has non‑Jews who think that they are Jewish. Concerning intermarried couples he says: “Rav Eliashiv, shlita has repeatedly said that those living as intermarried couples cut themselves off from the Jewish people. Furthermore he holds that we are obligated to distance ourselves from them and their society and to cut off all connection with them. However this community is different because its members mistakenly think that the non‑Jewish spouses are Jewish. Therefore it is permitted to maintain ties with the Jewish spouses in order to draw them closer through ties of love and to bring them under the wings of the Shechina.” This shunning of intermarried couples has always been the normative approach.

    Nevertheless, what if a couple comes to a rabbi and asks for the non‑Jewish spouse to be converted? While there are dissenting views – there are many great rabbinical authorities which permit conversion as last resort - if the Jewish spouse becomes observant and the non‑Jewish spouse sincerely accepts the obligation to keep all mitzvos.

    Why did the Bedatz issue their protest against participation in Eternal Jewish Family (EJF) – despite it being supported by many gedolei Torah? Because EJF is actively pursuing the conversion of the non‑Jewish spouse! Rav Leib Tropper, the head of the organization, has repeatedly denied proselytizing because he says he is only dealing with couples referred to him by rabbis. However it is difficult to understand his denials since proselytizing simply means trying to convince someone to change their religion. That is clearly what EJF is doing. It is a fact that Rav Tropper spends hundreds of thousands of dollars per convention to persuade a handful of uncertain or curious couples that they should become Jews. Those who are certain are not invited. These intermarried couples are given free conventions at quality resort hotels where they are wined and dined and given an intensive program by the world’s best religious motivational speakers – all in the hope that they will decide to convert.

    In a recent intensive exchange of e-mails, I asked Rav Tropper the halachic rulings of Rav Moshe Feinstein he claims as the basis for EJF’s activities. His response was, “Why do you think it is prohibited?” This is an astounding justification for a radical break with the past. While in fact it is not explicitly prohibited – this radical innovation of spending millions of dollars to convince non‑Jews to convert presents serious dangers to the Jewish people. It requires acceptance or rejection through scholarly discussion in peer-reviewed responsa - as innovations have been justified in the past.

    Daniel Eidensohn Ph.D."

    7) What is the halachic basis of EJF? (December 21, 2007):

    "It is time to remind everyone what is the concern of the Bedatz and why I have posted material on this blog. It is simply ascertaining the halachic basis of what Eternal Jewish Family is doing with intermarried couples. Once the purported halachic basis is ascertained - to have poskim evaluate the assertions and either agree, disagree or suggest modifications. There are no published teshuvos dealing with their activities. There are no letters explaining what they are doing. Why?

    The issue has been raised repeatedly as to why I am discussing only EJF when there are other organizations and rabbis who have problematic conversion programs. I don't understand the relevance of the question. How does the existence of a greater problem minimize the fact that this organization - with great fanfare - has announced that they are raising the standards of conversion so that they will be universally acceptable? They themselves have asserted that their reason for existence is to create the gold standard of conforming to halacha. How does their announced goal conform with what they are actually doing? Furthermore why have they introduced a program of seminars to enourage the non-Jewish spouse to convert. They are spending millions of dollars to convince people who are uncertain that it is desirable to be Jewish. Why is this needed?

    Related to this is a question I was asked by a charedi rosh yeshiva this morning. "One of the horror stories that EJF has told to illustrate the low halachic standards of others is that a woman went to mikva for her conversion and it was discovered afterwards that she was wearing contact lenses. It is well known that Rav Moshe held that contact lenses are not a chatzitza - even though it is best to remove them. But how can they claim to be following Rav Moshe's psakim and at the same time tell such stories?"

    I am not accusing Rabbi Tropper of corruption, or trying to become rich from a conversion racket. I am not trying to close down EJF. As far as I know Rabbi Tropper is an ehrliche yid, a solid talmid chachom, someone who has devoted his life to help the Jewish people. I am saying that despite all my efforts on behalf of the Bedatz, I have not been able to get my concerns addressed. He did take the time and effort for an extended exchange of e-mails - but I could not get him to answer my questions. I find this very puzzling. If the tables were reversed, I don't think it would take me more than 5 minutes to explain what is going on. Rav Tropper is a much greater talmid chachom than I am - and yet he has not produced an answer. He has not produced a letter from Rav Dovid or Rav Reuven Feinstein explaining how Rav Moshe permitted what is happening. He has not produced a letter from Rav Eliashiv to explain the justification for their actitivites. Why?"

    8) The Emperor has no clothes - Eternal Jewish Family & Daas Torah (December 31, 2007): "A very strange thing has happened. Despite my many postings and requests for one simple thing - the halachic guidelines of Eternal Jewish - EJF has produced nothing. This leads to the rather unfortunate conclusion that there is in fact no halachic justification for their specific program of proselytization. As the wise lawyer said, "If you have evidence you produce the evidence, otherwise you yell and scream and pound the table...."

    9) Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad (February 14, 2008):

    "There was a second letter sent out with the additional signature of the Gaavad. A copy of most of the letter follows. (Part was cropped out of the original):

    Distinguished Rabbi shlita, I am requesting from you - with every expression of entreaty - to stop and break off association with this organization (Eternal Jewish Family) which is a danger to the future of the Jewish people. Even isolated cases of this type of conversion (of intermarried couples) are extremely problematic. This is explicitly stated by the Achiezer (3:28) that “no kosher beis din should deal with this (the conversion of intermarried couples).” Also look in the Igros Moshe (E.H. 1:27) where he states “this whole issue of conversion of intermarried couples is personally totally distasteful even in isolated cases.” It is simply not acceptable to deal with the issue of intermarried couples in this manner and to openly reinforce their activities with public announcements and notices in newspapers and internet and other such means. They are in effect inviting non‑Jews to participate in a program of conversion through this publicity. It is a really damaging approach which unfortunately will bring about even more intermarriages and invalid conversions. Distinguished Rabbi shlita, please act according to your understanding and wisdom and desist from participating in this program (of the Eternal Jewish Family). It is a public danger. G‑d should assist you."

    10) There have been many posts clarifying the issues, such as at: Proselytizing is problematic I - Aruch HaShulchan (January 8, 2008); Proselytizing is problematic II - Yevamos 109b (January 11, 2008); Proselytizing is problematic III - Obligation to convert is on ger - not beis din (January 18, 2008); Why didn't Ezra convert intermarried couples? (February 21, 2008) and quite a few informative and trenchant others.

    The above should give you the real focus and purpose of the discussions here from their inception minus your ramblings and distractions about Rabbi Bomzer who cannot be controlled by the Haredi establishments neither from Israel nor in America, nor the discussions about sham conversions, but WHY has Rabbi Tropper as a truly notable Haredi Kiruv worker and head of a Haredi Baal teshuva yeshiva with a large Haredi following in some Baal teshuva circles thus far turned his back on his own constituency and revered rabbis which is inexplicable?

    Unless one surmises that he has fallen entirely into the monied clutches of billionare BT Dr. Tom Kaplan with whom he shares a strong bond and a misguided vision of what is "good" for Klal Yisroel.

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  12. All the above is the opinion of only one leading Haredi organization and one leading possek. All other leading organizations: have either been silent about it or ACTUALLY SUPPORTED THE IDEA OF THIS ORGANIZATION.

    Your ramblings and long misrepresentations notwithstanding does not chnge the fact that NUMEROUS LEading Rabbonim and Posskim supported the organization by actively peing present at these conventions.

    Rav REuven Feinstein is an active supporter and participant of these convetions and organization. Rav shechter stated that there is a need for such an organization. He clearly sees nothing wrong in the style of the organization insofar as it "prosetyizes" (he disagrees with other aspects of it but not the core idea of the organization). Rav Eisenstein is an active supporter of the main idea of the organization to establish batey dinim that rid us from relying on rabbis like Bomzer who brought many goyim into klal yisroel. RAv Kook from Rechovot supports it. Rav Wosner has one of his leading talmidim an expert in Gerut, Rav Stern participate in this organization.

    Many of the above and many others are pure "Haredi" Rabbis and leaders!

    While you would like to comfortably divert of the main reasons of the organization as mere "distraction"; I would not allow you to misinfomr the people. One of the main goals of the organization was and is the refraining of having fake rabbis converters who bring goyim to klal yisroel And perhaps the main disdain (you and) some others have for this organization is precisely the fact that they took away some of this form of easy income that Rabis such as HB was bringing into their pockets. In fact, yes some Haredi leaders or rAbbis send their propsetives converts to HB to convert. Yes, they can be swayed to withdraw their support to him and send to a different bett din. That should be madepriority one for this is the greater concern that actual goyim mingle with Jews and JEws intermarry with them thinking they converted halachikally whenthey actually did not do so.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Recipients and PublicityDecember 22, 2008 at 6:49 AM

    roni said... "All the above is the opinion of only one leading Haredi organization and one leading possek."

    RaP: roni is now resorting to making light of the Dayanim of the Eidah HaChareidis and its Bais Din Tzedek and making it sound like it's no different to any old local or provincial "va'ad harrabonim" that gives hechsherim on pizza stores and falafel joints. So the joke is on him, until such time as he can illustrate that he is taking this matter seriously and not simply making the BADATZ of the Eidah HaChareidis seem like any other run of the mill rabbinic organization instead of being concerned that they took the matter up at all, which itself should alarm any Haredi Jew let alone a Haredi rabbi and better yet a Haredi Rosh Yeshiva of a VERY Haredi Baal teshuva yeshiva like Rabbi Tropper is, who instead of rethinking his ways, he digs his heels in deeper and not just rejects and ignores them but by his example creates a bizzui Bais Din that may indeed bring him to the parameters of a lo tzayis dino, one who does not heed the call of a Bais Din.

    "All other leading organizations: have either been silent about it or ACTUALLY SUPPORTED THE IDEA OF THIS ORGANIZATION."

    RaP: roni has been bandying around this "support the idea" argument and its showing its wear and tear. There is no Halachic significance if a rabbis show up at organizations' dinners or speak at their conventions until such time as something definitive comes out in writing or in print from them with their SIGNATURES on it and thus far all EJF and Rabbi Tropper can cite are press releases from hired firms like Lubicom, photo ops and speeches and nice words, but absolutely NO definitive Halachic statement or justifications that what he and EJF are up to is in any way whatsoever 100% kosher veyosher and not just justifying it by its "need".

    There is a need that every city have a sewage plant or hospitals or schools, and likewise to somehow deal with intermarriage, when asked, the rabbis will say sure it's needed, but when red lines are being crossed in Halacha they must come up with something stronger in writing and be willing to put their signatures to it. That is why Orthodox Judaism relies on haskomas, hamlotzas and even semichas because Orthodox Judaism demands not just that there be a "Torah she'beal peh" but that it must be together with a Torah Shebichsav! You cannot have either without the other unlike Rabbi Tropper and EJF who want to base everythinbg they do on UNWRITTEN supposed supports and claimed oral agreements and alleged blessings they get from this or that other rabbi when they have come up with nothing in writing signed by ANY of the rabbis that they allege supports them.

    On the other hand, the opposition from Rav Shternbuch and the Bais Din of the Eidah HaChareidis with its SEVEN Dayanim writing in unison is very clear and they ALL sign what they say:

    Thus see Bedatz letter regarding conversion (November 18, 2007) ((original document): "...The senior dayanim of the Bedatz met today to discuss allegations that certain kiruv activists are actively proselytizing the children of intermarried couples to convince them to convert – even though according to Torah law there is no halachic relationship with their Jewish fathers. They are calling for the acceptance of these non-Jewish children in Jewish programs and religious schools. Such an action is literally a disaster and self‑destructive. It is self‑evident that such a program is absolutely prohibited by the Torah...We therefore are turning to the poskim and the roshei yeshivos not to participate in their conventions - such as the one that occurred in America last week. Even if their motivation was to improve the standards of conversions – they are making improvements in one area while making things worse in another. This approach is directly causing serious problems...We - the members of the Bedatz in Jerusalem - affix our signature to this document out of fear and concern for the holiness of the Jewish people – the holy nation.
    Horav Meir Brandsorfer
    Horav Moshe Sternbuch
    Horav Naftoli Frenkal
    Horav Avrohom Yitzchok Ulman
    Horav Yakov Mendel Yorovitch
    Horav Yehoushua Rosenberg
    ".

    As well as the second Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad (February 14, 2008) (original document): "Distinguished Rabbi shlita, I am requesting from you - with every expression of entreaty - to stop and break off association with this organization (Eternal Jewish Family) which is a danger to the future of the Jewish people...They are in effect inviting non‑Jews to participate in a program of conversion through this publicity. It is a really damaging approach which unfortunately will bring about even more intermarriages and invalid conversions. Distinguished Rabbi shlita, please act according to your understanding and wisdom and desist from participating in this program (of the Eternal Jewish Family). It is a public danger..."

    Then Rav Moshe Shternbuch states in writing: As translated: "...My view is that it is absolutely forbidden to try to proselytize a non‑Jew even if he mistakenly views himself as Jewish. One obvious reason is that such an approach actually encourages intermarriage. If people with only a Jewish father are encouraged to participate in Jewish educational events it will convey the message that in some sense they are actually Jewish...Thus this innovation crosses the red lines that have always been accepted by Torah true Jews...Another basis of concern is that I see this as a violation of following non‑Jewish practices (chukas akum). These rabbis are showing mercy to the Jewish father by a de-facto acknowledgment of the non‑Jewish concept of patrilineal descent...Concerning the specific case that you mentioned of a student whose father is Jewish but the mother is a non‑Jew. One of the kiruv programs wants to include him – even though he still lives with his parents. You mentioned that a number of American rabbis have given halachic rulings that his participation in the program should be encouraged because he might convert. Do not associate yourself with their programs..."

    "Your ramblings and long misrepresentations notwithstanding does not chnge the fact that NUMEROUS LEading Rabbonim and Posskim supported the organization by actively peing present at these conventions."

    RaP: I am not rambling. I gave very clear ten points of actual textual rejections of the Rabbi Tropper/EJF program that anyone can see with open eyes, so it is you that is now muttering and sputtering and hurling invective when you should be responding logically and categorically and staying on track intead of repeating your by now familiar mantras.

    Furthermore if some rabbonim had once been present at the outset and may have once thought the idea was worth a shot, they are long gone, such as ALL the Modern Orthodox and YU/RCA rabbis, that you can confirm if you wish from Rabbi Gil Student's summarizations at Conversion and the Age of the Universe: "A commenter posted here and on other blogs that at this week's conference of the Eternal Jewish Family, R. Nachum Eisenstein announced from the podium that R. Yosef Shalom Elyashiv told him that any rabbi who believes that the world is more than approximately 6,000 years old is a heretic and may not perform conversion (link): "I have confirmed the essence of the story -- that R. Eisenstein said such a thing to the audience. I have not confirmed whether R. Elyashiv actually told him that...It seems clear to me that the Modern Orthodox rabbinate has, with this statement, been largely shut out from the ongoing talks about conversion standards. Perhaps this is a good thing..."

    "Rav REuven Feinstein is an active supporter and participant of these convetions and organization."

    RaP: We know that, but it's not enough.

    "Rav shechter stated that there is a need for such an organization. He clearly sees nothing wrong in the style of the organization insofar as it "prosetyizes" (he disagrees with other aspects of it but not the core idea of the organization)."

    RaP: Rav Hershchel Schechter has been out of the picture for over a year now, see above and the relationship between EJF and Rav Herschel Schechter and the RCA/YU/OU crowd is long gone, as they have gone their own way, see RCA Announces Establishment of Recognized National Network of Rabbinical Courts for Conversion (February 28, 2008), see RCA site. See also RCA condemns psak of Supreme Rabbinical Court invalidating Rabbi Druckman's conversions (May 6, 2008) from the RCA site and also 80 Relgious Zionist Orthodox Rabbis condemn - Supreme Rabbinical Court ruling against Rav Druckman (May 15, 2008) when at that time EJF supported the ruling against Rabbi Drukman, making it VERY clear that Rabbi Herschel Schechter and the RCA/YU/OU crowd not ONLY did not share the same Hashkofa as EJF but that it was IMPOSSIBLE for EJF to consider the RCA crowd, that is linked closlely to Rav Hershel Schechter, as "friends or allies" in any way when it came to conversion matters.

    "Rav Eisenstein is an active supporter of the main idea of the organization to establish batey dinim that rid us from relying on rabbis like Bomzer who brought many goyim into klal yisroel."

    RaP: Well this is only half of the picture, that you are yet again regurgitating. Get this through your head, that while everyone knows that Rav Eisenstein, who is himself a leading Dayan of the Bais Din LeInyanei Giur of the Va'ad Ha'Olmai Le'inyanei Giur has an agenda to raise the standards of Batei Din all over the world (long before Rabbi Tropper got into this field), on the the other hand, Rav Eisenstein DOES NOT have the same agenda as EJF in welcoming and hosting and toasting and wining and dining gentiles who may wish to convert because it is obvious that Rav Eisenstien is not happy with this part of EJF's activities and that he in all probability he is opposng it as do ALL SEVEN Dayanim of the Eidah HaChareidis' Bais Din who have explicitly stated in the Bedatz letter regarding conversion (November 18, 2007) that: "We therefore are turning to the poskim and the roshei yeshivos not to participate in their conventions - such as the one that occurred in America last week. Even if their motivation was to improve the standards of conversions – they are making improvements in one area while making things worse in another. This approach is directly causing serious problems." And also in the second Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad (February 14, 2008): "Distinguished Rabbi shlita, I am requesting from you - with every expression of entreaty - to stop and break off association with this organization (Eternal Jewish Family) which is a danger to the future of the Jewish people. Even isolated cases of this type of conversion (of intermarried couples) are extremely problematic. This is explicitly stated by the Achiezer (3:28) that “no kosher beis din should deal with this (the conversion of intermarried couples).” Also look in the Igros Moshe (E.H. 1:27) where he states “this whole issue of conversion of intermarried couples is personally totally distasteful even in isolated cases.” It is simply not acceptable to deal with the issue of intermarried couples in this manner and to openly reinforce their activities with public announcements and notices in newspapers and internet and other such means. They are in effect inviting non‑Jews to participate in a program of conversion through this publicity. It is a really damaging approach which unfortunately will bring about even more intermarriages and invalid conversions. Distinguished Rabbi shlita, please act according to your understanding and wisdom and desist from participating in this program (of the Eternal Jewish Family). It is a public danger. G‑d should assist you."

    So it comes as no suprise that as EJF continues in defiance of this approach and with its forbidden "outreach to gentiles" that Rav Eisenstein, while still keeping up good appearances, has been very openly DISTANCING himself from EJF and has not allowed either his name or that of his Vaaad Ha'olami, nor even of Rav Eliashiv to be linked to Rabbi Tropper and EJF at this time. This cannot be denied, see the reports as described in Eternal Jewish Family - Rav Nachum Eisenstein where are you? (November 1, 2008): "...Rav Nochum Eisenstein reported to be at latest EJF conference -- but in a roundabout and very brief way -- the name "EJF" is not mentioned, that raises more questsions about the true relationship (or lack of it) between Rav Tropper/EJF and Rav Eisenstein/Va'ad Ha'olmai l'Inyonei Giyur.

    Here is how the latest editions of the YATED and the MODIAH reported on Rav Nochum Eisenstein's presence at the EJF conference and they did it via a press release from the Philadelphia Russian Kollel that has no official connection with EJF:

    "YATED NE’EMAN
    16 Cheshvan 5769 – November 14 2008
    Across The Fruited Plain
    By R&R Levitin
    Page 87.

    Rav Nochum Eisenstein of Yerushalayim Visits the Philadelphia Russian Kollel.

    ([Photo. Caption reads:] Rav Nochum Eisenstein with the yungeleit from the Philadelphia Russian Kollel. Behind him are Rav Yisroel Dov Webster and Rav Ahron Notis.)

    On Tuesday, 6 Cheshvan/November 4, Election Day, the Philadelphia Russian Kollel had the spiritual delight of hearing an address by Rav Nochum Eisenstein of Yerushalayim. Rav Eisenstein is a member of the bais din of Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv and is the rov of the Maalot Dafne shul in Yerushalayim. Rav Eisenstein came on the invitation of Rav Shlomo Isaacson, founder of the kollel.

    Rav Eisenstein was in Philadelphia for a conference on geirus and spoke to the kollel about many of the issues that discussed [sic] at the kinnus. Of primary concern were issues relating to the Russian community. Rav Eisenstien had just returned from the former Soviet Union where the intermarriage rate is close to 90%, Rachmana litzlan. That staggering number sent a chill through the room, reminding the kollel members of the massive job that still lies before them. The kollel has been working closely with their Russian brethren over the last four years. Rav Eisenstein then answered many halachic shailos from members of the kollel. He was joined by Rav Yisroel Dov Webster, dayan at Yeshiva Emek Halacha and mechaber of Sefer Yad Leyoledes..."

    "RAv Kook from Rechovot supports it."

    RaP: Rav Kook from Rechovot is a truly great man, a great diplomat and mentsch, who knows how to keep good relations with the secular Zionists, like his uncle the first Chief Rabbi Of Palestine, but it is doubtful that he has any real insight into what makes Rabbi Tropper tick (who hates Zionists with a passion) and the ins and outs of the darkening clouds that surround and hang over EJF.

    "Rav Wosner has one of his leading talmidim an expert in Gerut, Rav Stern participate in this organization."

    RaP: Ok, so what? What is Rav Stern going to do now, give seminars at EJF to goyim about the greatness of Hakadosh Baruch Hu? Or will he run around America screaming at dayanim that they are not strict enough, like Rabbi Tropper does and makes sure it gets sent out in a press release? Is he going to pray for the demise of Rabbi Bomzer and others on Rabbi Tropper's personal hit list? It's meaningless that a rabbi is sent as an "observer" as if he's in some UN committee, without a better context.

    "Many of the above and many others are pure "Haredi" Rabbis and leaders!"

    RaP: There is no such thing as a "pure" or "less pure" or ch"vsh "impure" Haredi rabbis and leaders, so you are now making up new things. Rabbi Tropper is as Haredi as Rabbi Shternbuch, and EJF which is run and based on supposedly Haredi principles should not be in conflict with the Haredim of the Eidah HaChareidis that should be respected and not scorned or sneered at like you and Rabbi Tropper are doing now. Watch out, it may get him in cherem yet.

    "While you would like to comfortably divert of the main reasons of the organization as mere "distraction"; I would not allow you to misinfomr the people."

    RaP: Like what? I was very careful to cite links to actual letters from the BADATS, Rav Shternbuch and other Torah sources as compiled by Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn.

    "One of the main goals of the organization was and is the refraining of having fake rabbis converters who bring goyim to klal yisroel"

    RaP: But this in not what is getting EJF into trouble, althouhgh as it attacks more rabbis, dayanim, rabbinical organizations and batei din it makes more enemies for itself and creates a chillul Hashem. Rabbi Tropper is not a caring diplomat unfortunately.

    "And perhaps the main disdain (you and) some others have for this organization is precisely the fact that they took away some of this form of easy income that Rabis such as HB was bringing into their pockets."

    RaP: Balony. I have never met Rabbi Bomzer in my life. Rabbi Eidensohn is not a dayan and does do geirus and the BADATZ could care less about making money from conversions.

    "In fact, yes some Haredi leaders or rAbbis send their propsetives converts to HB to convert. Yes, they can be swayed to withdraw their support to him and send to a different bett din. That should be madepriority one for this is the greater concern that actual goyim mingle with Jews and JEws intermarry with them thinking they converted halachikally whenthey actually did not do so."

    RaP: You know, when the late Rabbi E. Rackman set up his fake "bais din" to free agunas the world of Agudah rabbis and many rabbinical organizations had no trouble seeing the danger, condemning him and shutting him and his fake "bais din" down, so we can assume that the main Orthodox bodies like Agudas Yisroel with its Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, and the lesser bodies like Torah Umesorah, Young Israel, Agudas HaRabonim, Igud Harabonim, and the rabbinical bodies in Israel are very capable of taking action against rabbis who step over the line so Rabbi Tropper is flattering himself and fooling the world to pretend that he has now gotten some sort of "mandate" to enforce geirus standards all over the world by pressuring rabbis, dayanim, creating chaos at conventions, and convincing gentiles to become Jews by running EJF hotel retreats where the goyim are given steaks and wine and roses to convince them that Torah and Yiddishkeit are "yummy" when absolutely no such thing has happened.

    Rabbi Tropper must stop fantasizing that he is the savior of the goyim seeking conversions and the inquisitor who destroys rabbis and people he doesn't like.

    ReplyDelete
  14. RAP,

    response to his lengthy ramblings and misrppresentations:

    1) Eydah Hacharedis: While a serious organization; their positions are NOT adopted automatically by other leading Dayanim. MOst Dayanim disagree with their opposition to EJF as seen in reality. A FEw more truth pointers: 1) even in that organization: Rav Weiss does not have his signature at the last letter of the organization, 2) the secretary of that organization Rav Pappenheim attended the last convention). But all of the above does not changfe the fact that other leading dayanim disagree with their position on this. (And it is extremely perpplexing that the RAP who made light of Rav Wosner's halachik position in another issue to condemn Rt claiming that he does not understand the mind of kiruv uses this organization to bash RT. Iow he flip flops and uses whatever contradictory positions to irrationally condmen T).

    The res tis just the same tired bobeh massehs condmening T at all costs to save his old fake money grabbing converter HB: Put it through your head: as long as you buddies will not stop to patronize a guy like bomzer all serious rabbis will see a need for EJf. You are talking nonsense to state that he does not have MASSEH SUPPORT from Rabbis. NOT ONE has comdmened in writing; you can pooh pooh from today till tommorow the rabbis who come to conventions and then throw invencitve and bellittle them; the fact is they come here and clearly decalre their support for this organization.Rabbi Hershel Shechter stated clearly that such an organization is long overdue, ie. menaing that he supports and thinks such an organization is of the utmost importance. He thninks the state of fake gerus that exist in america is terrible. He decries the shenanigaNS THAT YOUR FELLOW PERFORM. Maasseh Rav is the greatest support that one can have. You pooh pooh and belittle Rav REuven Feinstein. Whether Tropper should fnatsize about him being the sasviour or not is not the most tragic crime in the universe; the fact that your buddies will use Herbert Bomzer as a rabbi to convert is THE crime that should bother you and other T critics. AS long as you do not acknowledge the serious disaster your buddies have wrought by introducing converts to Herbert BOmzer nad patronizing him for big bucks you can try to twist and twist and twist as much as you can but serious people like Rabbi Eisenstein will always perceive the truth that BOmzer is the problem and not Tropper (for all his ills) and so will other ehrliche rabbonim yireh shomayim who are in the field and know what happens on the ground. And therefore you will not have other serious organziations and rabbis comdemn T because they know that they have not come out loud to condmen Bomzer how can they condmen Tropper? And yes the serious organizations who deal with issues leshem shomayim have acknowledged the problewm and even in the RCA they have made a clean up in their acts. While others still persist to send their converts to people Herbert BOmzer.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Roni claims:
    " 1) Eydah Hacharedis: .. 1) even in that organization: Rav Weiss does not have his signature at the last letter of the organization,"

    Roni missed the second letter that the Bedatz sent out which I posted here

    http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/02/bedatz-letter-regarding-ejf-signed-by.html

    ReplyDelete
  16. I'm having a hard time getting that letter.

    Anyway: let me stress to you dear Dt: The essenceof the opposition by EH is that they make it eaiser to convert. In light of that, would behoove all of you who are ardent followers of this letter to condmen all rabbis who do the same as Rt: Please get it, Tropper does almost the same as Bomzer and whoever sends to BOmzer. MOst of the covnersions are done by intermrried couples where one spouse wants to pelase the other or whatever to "convert" and there is a "Rabbi" who sends this to Rabbi bomzer or someone like him to convert! In many cases there are peopleconvincing the non jewishspouse to comvert. This is the most common case of conversion in the USa (and aborad?).

    So, what ttropper does that is evil in the eyes of EH is the same as Bomzer and CO.. The only difference is: That Troper has Batey Dinim that DEMAND kablat hamitzvot while bomzer and other similar "dayanim" don't ask for this. They ask for $$$$$ This is far worse: because on top of proseltyzing they bering GOYIM into klal yisroel for they do not have KABBALAT HAMITZVOT!!

    ReplyDelete
  17. Recipients and PublicityDecember 25, 2008 at 8:58 AM

    roni said... "RAP, response to his lengthy ramblings and misrppresentations:"

    RaP: Lenghty yes, but not "ramblings" as only facts are cited.

    "1) Eydah Hacharedis: While a serious organization; their positions are NOT adopted automatically by other leading Dayanim. MOst Dayanim disagree with their opposition to EJF as seen in reality."

    RaP: They cannot be dismissed. They represent the serious Charedi world that Tropper too claims to represent and when he ignores the BADATZ by his example he shows his own self-contradictions.

    The bottom line is that Tropper and EJF are reaching out to goyim on a mass scale which is proselytization, and it's a new innovation in Klal Yisroel (to accept goyim on a mass scale into the CHAREDI world) that even you have admitted too a few times on this blog already.

    "A FEw more truth pointers: 1) even in that organization: Rav Weiss does not have his signature at the last letter of the organization,"

    RaP: You are being evasive and acting shady. Stop it please. The Gaavad added his signature to the toughest and most severe letter against EJF, for the record, see it here at the Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad (PLEASE CLICK ON THIS LINK AND YOU WILL SEE THE GAAVAD'S SIGNATURE AND HIS FULL SUPPORT OF THE BADATZ)

    "2) the secretary of that organization Rav Pappenheim attended the last convention)."

    RaP: The secretary is not a Dayan nor is he a Halachic figure. He is a diplomat and diplomats travel the world even to see their enemies. They are not irrational. They are keeping an eye on things. They have not withdrawn their letters of opposition to EJF. Maybe he was there to politely tell Rabbi Tropper to shape up.

    "But all of the above does not changfe the fact that other leading dayanim disagree with their position on this."

    RaP: This we know. But those of the RCA are now gone from EJF. And Rav Eisenstein, himself a Dayan has distanced himself from EJF as you have already admitted. In Prague in Europe lately, Rabbi Tropper was almost thrown out by the rabbis. So people are watching and waiting, maybe like vultures maybe like foxes.

    People are not so sure that Tropper and EJF will have their way in the end. The whole EJF thing is being glued together and held afloat by the money of Dr. Tom Kaplan. It's a cliff-hanger for EJF at this time. Tropper might be back in Monsey sooner than he thinks doing full time shiurim for his BTs to be fanatics in Kol Yaakov and not pestering Batei Din and hectoring potential converts and offereing them juicey steaks and good wines and fancy roses to become converts with his controversial mass proselytization efforts in hotels and retreats.

    "(And it is extremely perpplexing that the RAP who made light of Rav Wosner's halachik position in another issue to condemn Rt claiming that he does not understand the mind of kiruv uses this organization to bash RT. Iow he flip flops and uses whatever contradictory positions to irrationally condmen T)."

    RaP: One must strive for clarity at all times. And it is a clear fact that while Rav Wosner is NOT an expert in Kiruv and hardly anyone in the kiruv world relies upon him for kiruv advice, on the other hand Rav Shternbuch of the BADATZ is himself personally a very seasoned and experienced kiruv worker having spent a good part of his lifetime working with all strata of Jews all over the world including many Baalei teshuva who still look up to him as their Rebbe and support him and he has even published detailed shaylos and teshuvus based on the most compex issues that he had to pasken on with BTs. This is in KIRUV and not in conversion.

    In matters of conversion both Rav Wosner and Rav Shternbuch sit on their own respective Batei Din. By the way, is this Rav Wosner also the same one who has a son also Rav Wosner in Monsey who according to leading rabbonim was bought off to give his fake "hachsher" to the eruv in Flatbush, Brooklyn that was condemned by all poskim based on Rav Moshe Feinstein's prohibitions? Sadly, even dayanim can be bribed and bought off and not just rabbis like Bomzer who you can't get out of your obssessive mind, and it's sadly hard to tell when it is or is not happening.

    "The res tis just the same tired bobeh massehs condmening T at all costs to save his old fake money grabbing converter HB: Put it through your head: as long as you buddies will not stop to patronize a guy like bomzer all serious rabbis will see a need for EJf."

    RaP: As far as I know and from what I can tell, absolutely nobody on this blog has anything to do with Rabbi Bomzer or his actvities in any way whatsoever, so keep on trying that old Tropper trick of smearing people, even if it means that people reading your words will see that you are creating fake smokescreens to cover up the hot water Tropper and EJF are in up to their necks.

    "You are talking nonsense to state that he does not have MASSEH SUPPORT from Rabbis. NOT ONE has comdmened in writing;"

    RaP: The BADATZ and Rav Shternbuch have condemned EJF and implicated Tropper in writing. Rav Hershel Shechter and the RCA have cut all ties with EJF and Tropper and Rav Eisenstein is giving EJF the cold-shoulder treatment big time. And yes, the jury is still out, but the verdict does not look like it's getting better for Tropper and EJF on this conversions and proselytizations business venture of theirs.

    "you can pooh pooh from today till tommorow the rabbis who come to conventions and then throw invencitve and bellittle them; the fact is they come here and clearly decalre their support for this organization."

    RaP: Rabbis come and go to conventions and dinners and weddings all the time. They love the kovod and sitting on the dais getting their photos taken like rock stars lehavdil. And if you offer them free tickets to hotels with weekend vactions and good food and of course to hear a speech by this or that famous rabbi they will come especially if its free, the food is glatt kosher and chalav Yisroel only good, and everyone knows that no real tachlis will come from it in any case and hey they maybe pick up some tips about how to get such a big and active supporter like Troppper got within Tom Kaplan's deep pockets.

    "Rabbi Hershel Shechter stated clearly that such an organization is long overdue, ie. menaing that he supports and thinks such an organization is of the utmost importance. He thninks the state of fake gerus that exist in america is terrible. He decries the shenanigaNS THAT YOUR FELLOW PERFORM. Maasseh Rav is the greatest support that one can have."

    RaP: Sure, noone supports fake geirus, what kind of chidush is that? But you forget that thanks to Rabbi Tropper's lack of proper co-ordination, Rabbi Hershel Shechter received the biggest bizyones he ever got in his life, berabbim yet, when at an EJF convention Rabbi Eisenstein got up and insulted him and all MO rabbis "in the name of Rav Eliashiv" that they are not fit to be dayanim on Batei Din for conversions. And ther was no way Tropper could ever undo or repair the damage that he had caused himself that had caused one talmid chochem to be mevazeh another talmid chochem befarhesya which is a HUGE chillul Hashem.

    "You pooh pooh and belittle Rav REuven Feinstein."

    RaP: Since Rav Reuven is allegedly Tropper's and EJF's biggest supporter he should be able to be so kind and to do the minimal thing at least and come up with a brief WRITTEN letter of support and not insult the intelligence of the world and just expect people, and not just ordinary people but other talmidei chachomim to be mekabel his da'as just because he is on EJF's videos saying how nice Tropper is and how important EJF can be be that looks like he has been set up to say that or else.

    "Whether Tropper should fnatsize about him being the sasviour or not is not the most tragic crime in the universe;"

    RaP: You are wrong. And it is not a "crime" it is an ILLNESS! Get that through your head.

    "the fact that your buddies will use Herbert Bomzer as a rabbi to convert is THE crime that should bother you and other T critics. AS long as you do not acknowledge the serious disaster your buddies have wrought by introducing converts to Herbert BOmzer nad patronizing him for big bucks you can try to twist and twist and twist as much as you can but serious people like Rabbi Eisenstein will always perceive the truth that BOmzer is the problem and not Tropper (for all his ills) and so will other ehrliche rabbonim yireh shomayim who are in the field and know what happens on the ground. And therefore you will not have other serious organziations and rabbis comdemn T because they know that they have not come out loud to condmen Bomzer how can they condmen Tropper?"

    RaP: You go on and on and on about Bomzer and keep on comparing him to Tropper but it is a false comparison because because while Bomzer is a Young Israel rabbi who basically belongs to the Modern Orthodox movement at large, on the other hand Tropper is a product and part of the CHAREDI yeshivishe velt that has nothing to do with Bomzer or the Young Israel movement.

    Charedim cannot stop Bomzer, just like they cannot stop Conservative rabbis from doing their fake conversions, but Charedi rabbis CAN certainly stop people like Tropper who are doing in the Oilam HaToirah what Bomzer is doing in the modernishe velt. So your comparison is false all along and it's totally irrational when you keep on comparing two different rabbis, like comparing apples and oranges, from two different worlds who work in two different ways.

    And yes Rabbi Eisenstein is fighting his own wars against the Modern Orthodox and it is well known that he would like to shut down the RCA once and for all, but that cannot be done because Modern Orthodoxy is too strong and established in America just like Religious Zionism is too strong and established in Israel.

    So the question is about a CHAREDI IN-HOUSE clean-up effort to get Tropper to realize his wrongs and get him to stop and clean up his act and to get EJF to stop acting like a new-fangled illogical and self-contradictory and destructive "CHAREDI PROSELYTIZING MISSIONARY AGENCY" once and for all.

    "And yes the serious organizations who deal with issues leshem shomayim have acknowledged the problewm and even in the RCA they have made a clean up in their acts. While others still persist to send their converts to people Herbert BOmzer."

    RaP: Modern Orthodoxy and the RCA will be around for a long time to come. And people like Bomzer cannot be stopped by rantings and ravings and sticking pins into dolls by Tropper or anyone else. Tropper has gone overboard and is starting wars with people that need not be fought at this time because they can't be won by trying to fight every last RCA rabbi or Young Israel rabbi like Bomzer. Stay home and build your own gemeinde like Rav Hirsch did, and try not to solve all the world's problems because it only shows what a baal gaava you are.

    "I'm having a hard time getting that letter."

    RaP: You have been given the link to the letter with the Gaavad's signature on it multiple times. See it here, yet again, for the Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad (PLEASE CLICK ON THIS LINK AND YOU WILL SEE TH GAAVAD'S SIGNATURE AND MORE)

    "Anyway: let me stress to you dear Dt: The essenceof the opposition by EH is that they make it eaiser to convert. In light of that, would behoove all of you who are ardent followers of this letter to condmen all rabbis who do the same as Rt: Please get it, Tropper does almost the same as Bomzer and whoever sends to BOmzer."

    RaP: Yet you see that the Eidah haChareidis did not send letters to rabbis like Bomzer because he is not a Charedi rabbi really, unlike Rabbi Tropper who is a 101% Charedi rabbi and he should know better, yet it seems that he has lost his sense this time, even though he wishes to act for the best of kiruv reasons and wants to help BT's married to goyi get out of their intermarriage predicaments, yet it's a big mistake to do it on such a scale that it amounts to mass organized proselytizations that are forbidden.

    "MOst of the covnersions are done by intermrried couples where one spouse wants to pelase the other or whatever to "convert" and there is a "Rabbi" who sends this to Rabbi bomzer or someone like him to convert! In many cases there are peopleconvincing the non jewishspouse to comvert. This is the most common case of conversion in the USa (and aborad?)."

    RaP: Your fixation on Bomzer is yet again not working. The Reform are a million times worse than Bomzer yet the BADATZ does not bother sending letters to them simply because they are chutz lamachaneh while Tropper is in the machaneh Hacharaedi and he should know better himself rather than to get letters of reprimand from the BADATZ yet. It is shande for Tropper and nothing for him to be proud of that he works happily with Tom Kaplan but brushes off Rav Shternbuch as if he was nothing.

    "So, what ttropper does that is evil in the eyes of EH is the same as Bomzer and CO.. The only difference is: That Troper has Batey Dinim that DEMAND kablat hamitzvot while bomzer and other similar "dayanim" don't ask for this. They ask for $$$$$ This is far worse: because on top of proseltyzing they bering GOYIM into klal yisroel for they do not have KABBALAT HAMITZVOT!!"

    RaP: It's doubtful if you can label what Bomzer does as "proselytising" because he does not try to seduce and entice the gentiles with expensive retreats and parties at the fanciest hotels. Nor does Bomzer place ads in the media and hire PR people to push like EJF sponsored conversions to goyim as if it was looking for customers to buy products (that is something you will find mainly Reform type hired gun rabbis do).

    So while Bomzer may be performing fake conversions it cannot be classed as proselytizing. On the hand Tropper and EJF admit that what they do is an innovation and that they are doing it even if they are losing the support of what should be lechatchila their own Charedi allies. Tropper also pays plenty of money to get his way, through the budgets of EJF, that runs into the millions to shift public opinion his way and to move the alliances of rabbis their way, which has never been done in the frum world in this scale.

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