Gay couples discover surrogate option - who is the parent?

The issue of homosexuality is not a theoretical issue in Jewish identity - or even a rare incident. It is no longer limited to the question of individuals but now also includes marriage and families with two father or two mothers. The following concerns babies from two women - an egg donor and a birth mother. The sperm donor is one or perhaps both of the homosexual couple. In lesbian couples it could be one is a donor and a the partner is the birth mother - or that their is a 3 woman who is either the egg donor or the birth mother.

These are families who might want to live in our neighborhoods, attend out synagogues and have their children attend our schools. These are families who also might be interested in becoming more observant - how should communities, synagogues, schools and kiruv organizations respond? How does this impact people who want to convert?

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The following appeared on YNET

New alternative for homosexual couples in Israel who desire children – surrogacy in US or India brokered by agencies specializing in single-sex planned parenthood
Liat Rotem-Melamed

Four years ago, after they had been together for six happy years, Dror and Gil Zitat-Mandelbaum decided it was time to expand their family. As a homosexual couple they knew their options in Israel were limited. They could either try their luck with adoption agencies abroad or, if they found it important to have a biological child, contact a woman who would agree to be artificially inseminated by one of them, also abroad.

Each option came with its own specific problems, but they had no alternative. Unlike lesbian couples, who can start a family with a simple sperm donation, male couples are not blessed with the luxury of a womb.

"We tried to adopt for many years and through many agencies," Dror recounted. "We paid a lot of money but it didn't work out. We didn't know we had the option of a surrogate mother." Today Dror and Gil are fathers to a pair of 10-month old twins, given birth to by a surrogate mom.

The surrogate law in Israel, dubbed "the law of accords for the carriage of fetuses", states that in order to be eligible for a surrogate agreement, the parents must be "a man and woman defined as a couple" which, of course, does not include gay couples. The idea of contacting a surrogate abroad is relatively new and applies only to the US, where prices range from 100 to 150 thousand dollars, and India, where the standard price is about $30,000.

Matter of choice

Ran Paul-Dayan, an Israeli living in the US with his partner, Greg, told Gil and Dror about this option. "They were the first couple who came to me with this problem," he said. "I told them about Circle Surrogacy, an American agency that provides surrogacy for gay couples and single people."

"A year ago 85% of the couples seeking the agency's help were local, but today over 40% are Israeli," said Paul-Dayan, who is currently the agency's Israeli contact and advisor. According to him, nine Israeli couples are currently "pregnant", nine others have recently signed on, and 20 more couples are currently being approved.

"The process undergone by a couple interested in surrogacy is very complex," Zitat-Mandelbaum explained. "There are a lot of legal documents, hundreds of checks, a lot of medical issues and a ton of bureaucracy. The process also includes two women – the egg donor and the surrogate. We contacted the agency and they took care of everything.[...]

Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita - Guidelines for calling the Police VII - critical addendum

I talked to Rav Sternbuch this Shabbos regarding the issue of whether a rabbi must always be consulted before calling the police.

In my first posting on the subject I reported that he said:

The rule is summarized simply – if one knows that someone is being physically abused or will be abused than it is required to call the police after consulting a rabbi who agrees he is a future danger as is common in such cases.


In response to the question as to whether a rabbi must be called, he said that the key issue is to ascertain whether the child is in danger or will be in danger. If it is obvious that that is the case - either because of one's direct knowledge or a responsible person has informed you of that fact - the police should be called.

Talking to others who have discussed the issue with him, they noted that Rav Sternbuch's focus is on the issue of harm to the child. When they told him about other poskim who have focused on "is the particular act truly sexual contact, or has the perpetrator promised to stop, or if the perpetrator agrees to be supervised" he got furious and said these approaches are nonsense. He is fully aware that therapy is not very successful and that the perpetrator is likely to repeat the crime.

Bottom line: If a child is in danger of being molested - the police need to be called. If there is any uncertainty - either regarding the facts or the seriousness of the incident - an experienced rabbi or professional should be consulted. However if it is clear that children are in danger of being molested - a rabbi does not have to be consulted. Rav Sternbuch concluded, "Let the molester rot in jail."

Rev. Hagee apologizes to Jews for 'God sent Hitler' comments

_{By Haaretz Service}

A prominent American televangelist and outspoken supporter of Israel publicly apologized Friday for remarking that the Holocaust was the work of divine providence, and that "God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land."

"In a sermon in 1999, I grappled with the vexing question of why a loving God would allow the evil of the Holocaust to occur," John Hagee, the Texas-based preacher wrote in a letter to Anti-Defamation League director Abe Foxman. "I know how sensitive the issue of the Holocaust is and should be to the Jewish community and I regret if my Jewish friends felt any pain as a result."

Last month, audio of Hagee's remarks surfaced on the internet, prompting Republican presidential hopeful John McCain to disavow the pastor's prior endorsement of his candidacy.

Foxman issued a statement welcoming the pastor's apology. "Pastor Hagee has devoted his life to combating anti-Semitism and supporting the State of Israel," Foxman said. "We are grateful for his efforts to eradicate anti-Semitism and to rally so many in the Christian community to stand with Israel."

Labor Party MK Colette Avital, a former consul general in Israel's mission in New York, penned an op-ed piece for Haaretz earlier this month in which she called on the Israeli government to follow McCain's example and disassociate itself from Hagee.

"As someone familiar with the evangelicals' views and beliefs on the second coming of Jesus, there is nothing surprising to me about his statements," Avital wrote. "It only causes me to sigh in relief because the truth is coming out."

Ombudsman recommends firing rabbinic judge in Druckman saga

Jun. 12, 2008
Matthew Wagner , THE JERUSALEM POST

In another salvo in the ongoing battle surrounding state-sponsored conversions, Tova Strasberg-Cohen, a former Supreme Court judge and ombudsman of the judiciary, called on the Committee for the Appointment of Rabbinical Judges to consider removing Rabbi Avraham Sherman from his post as judge on the High Rabbinical Court for badmouthing the head of the National Conversion Authority Rabbi Haim Druckman.

Strasberg-Cohen's letter was addressed to Druckman and was a response to a complaint filed by Druckman against Sherman.

"In light of the serious faults in Rabbi Sherman's conduct, I find it appropriate to recommend that the Committee for the Appointment of Rabbinical Judges consider firing Sherman," the letter said.

"Sherman's behavior is not in accordance with the legal system's ethical standards nor is it in line with that system's fundamental principles.

"It seems to me that Rabbi Sherman's perception of the essence of his role and obligations is flawed. My impression is that Sherman has not internalized the problematic nature of his conduct and the way he ran the case against Druckman."

Strasberg-Cohen's letter comes after Sherman issued a 50-page document - half halachic decision, half diatribe - against Druckman and the Conversion Authority.

The document, in which Sherman discredits Druckman as a rabbinical judge, was copied and distributed during a conference for rabbinical judges several months ago.

Druckman was never given a chance to respond to the charges leveled against him, which included forgery, purposely transgressing Halacha and placing a stumbling block before the wider public.

The upshot of Sherman's document was that the validity of all the conversions performed by Druckman and other religious Zionist judges was questioned.

Doubt was cast on the Jewishness of literally thousands of converts and Druckman's good name was besmirched.

Strasberg-Cohen's letter includes a response from Sherman.

According to Strasberg-Cohen, Sherman said that the ombudsman did not have the power to judge the case since it involved halachic issues that "involved the very soul of the Jewish people".

Sherman also said that his accusations against Druckman were based on classified documents that belonged to the rabbinical courts and could not be shared with others.

In an official response released by the Rabbinical Courts in the name of Sherman, it was stated that the high rabbinical court judge had conducted himself in accordance with the Halacha, the law and ethical standards.

"Rabbi Sherman is sorry for the pain caused as a result of the publishing of the halachic opinion," read the press release.

"However, rabbinical judges are obligated to abide by the laws of the Torah as written and expounded upon by the great rabbis of each generation.

"According to Torah law it is forbidden for a judge to be partial out of deference to social standing or rank, especially in a ruling that deals with maintaining the purity of the Jewish people."

[...]

Religious Zionists & Rav Druckman - Divided on unity

JPost June 12, 2008

Matthew Wagner , THE JERUSALEM POST

The specter of early elections has thrown the splintered, embattled religious-Zionist camp into a mad rush to somehow consolidate its ranks and present a unified front.

The obsession with forever illusory unity was palpable this week at a conference that brought together hundreds of religious-Zionist leaders and educators.

Big names in religious Zionism, such as Rabbi Haim Druckman - the assailed outgoing head of the Conversion Authority - and Rabbi Ya'acov Shapira, head of the Mercaz Harav Yeshiva, called to "unify the ranks."

"Consolidating our political strength is absolutely essential right now," said Shapira. "It is our biggest challenge. It is the commandment of the hour."

Druckman, meanwhile, declared that religious Zionists have had "such a profound impact on the shaping of Israeli society that we deserve to make an impact politically as well."

"What would this country look like without religious Zionism?" he asked. "It would be a spiritual wasteland."

Druckman received a standing ovation from the crowd of several hundred who were crammed into the hot Givat Washington Educational Center's basketball stadium for the afternoon festivities that celebrated "60 years of religious Zionism in the Jewish state."

His popularity among religious Zionists has skyrocketed in recent months, following a bitter clash with the haredi rabbinical establishment over conversions. Druckman was lambasted by the haredim for allowing his Zionist, nationalistic ideological leanings to taint his conversion policies. Haredi rabbis accused him of purposely adopting flagrant leniencies that sharply deviated from normative Jewish law.

These leniencies were designed to make it easier for gentiles who came here under the Law of Return, including those who were not sincere about adhering to an Orthodox lifestyle, to be allowed to marry Israelis born to a Jewish mother - the halachic definition of Jewishness. Druckman, said the haredim, mistakenly believed that compromising Halacha was justified in the name of Zionistic goals, such as fostering a more cohesive Israeli society and preventing intermarriage.

The attack, which emphasized the deep ideological divide between religious Zionism and the haredi community, is also symptomatic of religious Zionism's decreasing influence within the Chief Rabbinate. Neither Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi Yona Metzger, who was placed in office by the haredi rabbinic establishment, nor Chief Sephardi Rabbi Shlomo Amar, who is strongly deferential to the haredi community, has come out openly in defense of a more lenient conversion policy.

The Chief Rabbinate was originally conceived and created by the founding father of religious Zionism, Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak Hakohen Kook, to provide rabbinical leadership for the challenges facing a modern Jewish nation. However, it has gradually been taken over by more haredi elements who do not view the creation of a Jewish state as a revolutionary change in Jewish reality that necessitates innovative halachic approaches.

Power within the Chief Rabbinate is directly related to political clout, since the religious affairs minister has broad powers in choosing the members of the body that elects the chief rabbis. Municipal politics also has a major influence on the appointment of mayors, city rabbis and heads of religious councils who are members of the election body.

The fall in religious-Zionist influence within the rabbinate has been coupled by a parallel rise in haredi power, particularly that of Shas, which cooperates with Ashkenazi haredim against the religious Zionists. Some examples of rising haredi influence within the rabbinate include the recent appointment of 19 rabbinical court judges, the vast majority of whom were connected either to Shas or United Torah Judaism; the decision by the Chief Rabbinate, later overruled by the High Court, to support a stringent version of shmita that boycotted Jewish-grown produce; and the recent conversion controversy, in which a panel of haredi High Rabbinical Court judges cast doubt on the validity of thousands of conversions performed by Druckman.

RELIGIOUS ZIONISTS have long lamented their inability to realize their full political potential. Although about 15 percent of the Jewish public attends national-religious schools, only about half of them voted for the two religious-Zionist parties in the Knesset - the National Religious Party and the National Union - which joined forces under a unified list in the last election, gaining just nine seats, less than 8% of the Knesset.

Voters who identify with religious Zionism's aims nevertheless choose to scatter their votes among various parties such as Kadima, Likud, Israel Beiteinu and Shas.

Yaki Sa'ada, director-general of Givat Washington and one of the organizers of the conference, said that part of reason for religious Zionism's failure politically is its emphasis on full integration into Israeli society. "We educate our children to take an active part in all aspects of Israeli society, from army service to business to academic pursuits," he said. "Why should we be surprised if religious Zionists end up developing independent and diverse political opinions?"

In parallel, unlike Shas, the religious-Zionist camp has failed to attract those who do not define themselves as Orthodox, but who are religious traditionalists.

The deterioration of religious Zionism's political clout has resulted in major setbacks in several areas. Perhaps the hardest hit has been education. Institutions from grade school through pre-military academies have seen their budgets cut. Religious Zionists barely avoided a deep cut in the budget for National Service, which is an option provided for female high school graduates who do not serve in the IDF for religious reasons.

But the prospects for unity do not look good. Although they might agree on the need for solidarity, religious Zionists are split on how to achieve it. No fewer than three new initiatives, all aimed at bringing together the diverse groups within religious Zionism, have been launched in recent months. Each disagrees with the others over the best unity-building strategy. All three seem to think the old NRP cannot represent all the streams within religious Zionism. [...]

Influence of non-Jewish maids and teachers on our children

Jersey Girl wrote "New Argentine Orthodox Jewish leader denies favori...":

[...]

A website for Christians looking for opportunities to evangelize Jews recommends South American Jews as prime targets for conversion to Christianity because:

"In South America, Jewish executives have been extremely successful. However, the more successful the Jewish executive in South America becomes, the greater tendency he may have to be assimilated into the Christian European society."

Perhaps this is true due to the tendency for wealthier people to hire servants to work in their homes. Chazal admonished us to be careful about the laws of Bishul Akum because transgressing these leads to intermarriage.

Shulchan Aruch 165 says that we should not let our children be taught by non-Jewish teachers to prevent our children being affected & influenced by them, and from being steered away from Torah ch"v.

Some try to justify the practice of hiring Christian teachers in yeshivas by quoting the Rama that Christians are not Idolators for this halacha, (it has been said that the Rama was forced to say this because he lived in a Christian society and did not want to upset the balance there).

How much more so are children influenced when their primary caregivers (maids) from birth are Christians?

I was sitting in a pizza shop in Boro Park a few years back and heard a three year old boy with peyos to his chest singing a perfect rendition of "Jesus es la Luz del Mundo" from John 8:1-30).

I went over to the little boy who was sitting with his mother and older siblings and conversed with him in Spanish. The mother was surprised that he spoke so animatedly with me because she said that at home he barely speaks(in Yiddish).

I asked her if she knew the song he was singing and she answered that "it was a lullaby the maid sings to him". I explained to her what he was singing.

I have repeated similar incidents many times over the years. When I meet frum children who I know have been cared for by maids, I converse with them in Spanish (in front of and with the permission of their parents). More often than not, when the young child is spoken to in Spanish, he will repeat parts of the Catechism etc.

I used to expect that frum parents would be horrified by this, but I have learned over the years that most families feel their children are immune to these influences in their homes because the children receive a yeshiva education.

In the face of rising numbers of frum kids going OTD, perhaps it is time to rethink the issue of Christian maids in our homes and the hiring of Christian secular studies teachers in yeshivas.

Naomi Ragen - A Modest Proposal [for the conversion crisis]

What follows are comments which I assume were sent by Naomi Ragen. I personally view them as a gross misunderstanding of the issue - but I do acknowledge that there are many who agree with her views. In the interest of civil dialogue with a sincere person who has a significant impact on society I am publishing her comments - even though I personally find them offensive. Improvement in the present situation does require greater mutual understanding than exists at present. Please note that since this is a moderated forum, I will reject all comments which I feel do not promote dialogue.

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A Modest Proposal

By Naomi Ragen

What began as a routine divorce between a Danish-born convert and her Israeli husband now threatens to tear apart the country, opening deep wounds and revealing the ugly face of the haredi judges who rule Israel's Rabbinical Court system.

This all began during an uncontested divorce in Ashdod. Rabbi Avraham Attia, a member of the Ashdod Rabbinical Court, asked the woman a question or two about her religious observance (which was none of his business, by the way). Apparently, he didn't like her answer, or maybe he didn't like the way she was dressed. In any case, on February 22, 2007- ignoring the reason she had come to court in the first place- he ruled that her conversion was invalid! Since she was not Jewish, she was not really married to her husband and therefore did not need a divorce.

By overturning this woman's conversion, which had taken place in the special conversion court set up in 1995 to help convert many Russian soldiers and other immigrants who wanted to be Jewish, but found the Rabbinical Courts unwelcoming, Attia, and his haredi counterparts, were calling into question the validity of thousands of conversions that have taken place there, and insulting its head, Rabbi Haim Druckman, the spiritual leader of religious Zionism in Israel.

On April 22, 2007, the couple appealed the lower court decision to the Higher Rabbinical Court, arguing that the Ashdod court had exceeded its authority and violated religious law, disqualifying Druckman's court without giving him a chance to defend himself.

The Higher Court ignored these issues. Instead, it chose to deal only with the question of whether the woman was observant. Granting the divorce, the court also ruled that the Jewishness of the woman and her children was in doubt and needed to be re-examined, and that in the meantime the family should be added to the list of people who are forbidden to marry. Outrageously, they ruled that all Druckman's conversion decisions since 1999 should be canceled, and that marriage registrars not register a convert who does not look observant from his or her external appearance.

This unbelievable decision was not only a slap in the face to religious Zionism, but openly violated the severe Torah prohibition of oppressing the convert and causing them pain, i.e. Shemot 23:9 - "Do not oppress a convert; you know the feelings of a stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."

Ruth (not her real name) is on my mailing list. She is a convert. This decision has broken her heart. She writes: "At what point will my children and I no longer have to worry that someone will unilaterally and arbitrarily remove the cloak of Torah and Jewish identity out of our self-definition? How many years - 30, 50, 100 - never?

Does this mean that if I ever speak a drop of lashon hara, or some of my hair peeks out from under my tichel, or my elbows become uncovered, or I wear my sandals without socks - that I must reckon with someone's claims that this is sufficient evidence to disclaim my Jewish soul? If the Rabbis today reject numerous sincere converts and needlessly oppress them, causing them untold pain, is this not a much more terrible sin than a convert who may not keep all her hair covered? We do not care to be involved in internal conflicts and back biting. We call upon all G-d fearing Jews to speak with one voice in our defense. We ask all Jews to not become embroiled and ensnared in this evil which will split the Jewish nation if not reined in now. We ask that you stand up for us and call our leaders to account."

Susan Weiss, an attorney for the Center for Justice for Women, who represents the Danish convert, has taken this case to Israel's Supreme Court. Her petition is aimed at Avraham Attia, Dayanim Avraham Sherman, Hagai Eiserer and Avraham Scheinfeld of the Higher Rabbinical Court. According to Weiss, the case highlights many of the faults of the rabbinical courts. "They have no concept of due process or fairness, and they display no sensitivity to those who come before them," she told Dan Izenburg of the Jerusalem Post.

I have a modest proposal. Since all the dayanim involved here have openly violated an oft stated Torah prohibition against"oppressing the convert," and have spoken slanderously against a fellow Rabbi (another strict prohibition), they can hardly be called G-d fearing or religious. In light of their behavior, I think we should retroactively take away their rabbinical ordination, and nullify all the decisions in which they've been involved. They should certainly be thrown out of their posts as judges.

Naomi

Acid attack on 14year old girl in Beitar Illit - not done by Modesty Patrol

IHC Follow-up

Subsequent to the report concerning the 14 year old girl from the town of Beitar Illit in Israel who had acid thrown on her, the IHC checked out the story with the Beitar Illit authorities to clarify the facts. A 14-year-old girl was in fact burned by acid being thrown on her. However the police have not named a suspect. According to Moshe Friedman, Media Advisor for Beitar Illit, this was apparently a teenage brawl or attack, where youngsters took the law into their own hands. The ‘modesty patrol’ does not do things this way; the Rabbis would never condone such actions. There are fringe groups in every city and Beitar Illit is no exception. The municipality attempts to work with these youngsters in various settings and 90% of them are actively participating in various programs. The municipality assists them in a professional capacity, both culturally, socially and educationally. The city is not ‘partially religious and partially secular’ as reported, but mostly religious, with quite a few ‘newly returned-to-Judaism’ families whose children are not ‘there’ yet and hence the trouble makers. 75% of these children are dealt with in specific frameworks. Approximately 100 boys and girls do not participate in these specialized settings.

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Source: Israel Hasbara Committee, www.infoisrael.net.

Published 11 June 2008.

Permission is granted to use this material on condition the Israel
Hasbara Committee is properly credited and that it is not for commercial
purposes.

Religious Zionist MK warns conference RZ has become cult

Kadima MK warns Religious Zionism has become 'cult' [YNET]

Otniel Schneller speaks at Religious Zionism conference on education, economy society, says sector has lost its way and is demonstrating cult-like characteristics. 'Religious Zionism cannot stay closed up within itself, it will suffocate,' he says

by Kobi Nahshoni

"Religious Zionism has lost its true substance and has become a cult," said MK Otniel Schneller (Kadima) Wednesday at the Religious Zionism conference on education, the economy and society.

Dozens of rabbis, educators and public figures took part in the conference, which marked 60 years of Religious Zionism. The conference held various panels on subjects such as the breakdown of the educational system, the conversions crisis, the growing use of internet services among the religious sector, military prep-schools and the challenges the religious sector may face in view of the coming elections.

Speaking at one of the conference's panels, Schneller, a religions Jew, slammed the religious and political leadership of the national-religious public, saying "I grow up in an environment which perceived the rabbi as the 'whole'. The leaders of Religious Zionism have taken this whole and pulled it apart, supporting only one of its parts.

"The fight for the Land of Israel is important, but hailing it as the sole theme makes Religious Zionism a cult. I know many of you will resent this definition, but this wasn't the way taught by the Religious Zionism I grew up on."

Schneller went on to criticize the Religious Zionism rabbis' involvement in politics, saying that every decision religious politicians want to make must be clear by the rabbis first. "We've become nothing but a small group of kippah wearers," he said.

The lawmaker went on to say he does not like to use the term "Religious Zionism" as the title of his public sector, seeing how "it is a leaden term which constricts instead of expands."

[...]

New Argentine Orthodox Jewish leader denies favoring the Orthodox

<sub>Haaretz called the following

By The Associated Press [YNET also has article]</sub>

The first Orthodox man elected to head Argentina's largest Jewish organization took office Thursday amid an angry debate over religious and cultural identity.

Guillermo Borger tried to dispel fears that he would favor Orthodox Jews and their beliefs during his three-year tenure as president of the 22,000-member Argentine Israeli Mutual Association, known as AMIA.

"AMIA is, and will be, the representative of all Jews, without exclusion and with a spirit of dialogue," Borger said in a speech Thursday night.

Borger is the group's first Orthodox president in its 114-year history. On Saturday, Buenos Aires' leading newspaper Clarin ignited a controversy when it quoted Borger as saying that "genuine Jews are those who lead a life based on everything that is dictated in the Torah, our sacred book."

"It's a paradox that people call themselves Jews if they don't practice the religion," Borger added, according to the newspaper.

Borger, a 59-year-old businessman, denied having made the remarks in a
communique he sent to the nation's Jewish community.

"Clarin stands by its story. What we published is what he said," Clarin editor-in-chief Julio Blank told The Associated Press.

Argentina's 250,000-person Jewish community was divided Thursday between
Borger's backers and those who worry his alleged comments will divide the
AMIA.

"We respect Orthodox Jews' way of life and we want them to respect us too," said Agustin Ulanovsky, a 22-year-old law student who joined about 200 people protesting Borger's statements Thursday at his inauguration.

"We are all Jews!" they shouted, booing at the mention of Borger's name and drowning out remarks during the opening ceremony, which was televised on a large screen to accommodate an overflow crowd.[,,,]

A majority of Argentine Jews follow Conservative and Reform streams of the faith. [...]

Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita - Guidelines for calling the Police VI - the stigma of being molested

While the focus of my previous postings on this subject have been the legitimacy of calling the police - there is in fact a bigger problem. It is not the concealment and denial of the rabbis and community. It is rather the concealment and denial of the parents of the abused children.

People have greater fear of the stigma of their children being labeled as molested - then of the molesting itself.

Someone just told me of the case of a well respected member of the community who has molested more then 10 of his neighbors kids. The police were called in - but not a single family is willing to press charges! They don't want their kids being labeled as abused because it will be a problem for shidduchim - not only for the molested kids - but the rest of his/her family.

The local rabbis have dealt with the situation by assigning him a mashgiach or supervisor. According to a psychologist I consulted it is not unusual for families of molested kids to refuse to press charges. Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz provided a link to ABC news Nightline article which noted that in a case in which Jewish and non-Jewish kids had been abused - not a single Jewish parent had pressed charges but only the non-Jewish ones.

Would you want your son to marry a girl who had been molested or raped? Would you want your daughter to marry a young man who was continually abused from the time he was 8 years old? If the answer is no - then the molested child will be hurt again and again.