Jews for Judaism explains Christian missionary tactics

Jersey Girl submitted the following:

According to Rabbi Michael Skobac, Education Director of the Toronto branch of Jews for Judaism, founding Director of the New York Branch of Jews for Judaism, as well as a consultant to the New York Jewish Community Relations Council Task Force on Missionaries and Cults from 1987 until moved to Toronto in 1991:

“Not all missionaries wear “Jews for Jesus” T-shirts, distribute religious tracts or wave the New Testament. Most evangelism is far more subtle. Many groups seeking to missionize Jews will insist that they have no such agenda, and instead they choose a more indirect route.

Two guiding principles drive their evangelism. Firstly, they assume that Jewish people resist the Christian message because Jews have been turned off as a result of 2,000 years of hostility by many of Jesus’ followers. If only these Evangelicals could get us to realize that “real” Christians love Jewish people, we’d find the Gospel irresistible.

Secondly, they sense that a great number of Jews have a very weak connection to Judaism, and that those who do affiliate with Judaism are expressing their culture or ethnicity, but possess little spiritual depth. They sense that many Jews may recite prayers out of a book during services, but will probably never speak to G-d in their own words once they leave the synagogue.

Deeply spiritual Christians feel that if Jewish people are exposed to their profoundly personal relationship with G-d, they will certainly, in the words of the New Testament, be “provoked to jealousy” and ultimately convert (Romans 11:11-15)".

For example, according to Rabbi Skobac:

Joe Dean, founder of an American Christian Zionist group has said:

“By standing with the Jewish people in love and support, we can provoke them to jealousy, as the apostle Paul said, so as to win them to Christ.

Not by cramming the Gospel down their throats, but by showing that our faith produces faithful works. I have told the Jewish agencies that we are not an evangelical group as such, and this is true. We are not actively trying to win Jews over to Christ—but by taking this stand, the Jewish people don’t run away from us, and we are able to witness to them indirectly,” he said.

Frank Eiklor, head of Shalom International, works tirelessly fighting anti-Semitism and drumming up support for Israel. He bristles at any suggestion that he has hidden agenda. Needless to say, fund-raising letters to his supporters tell another story:

“I want to see Christians wake up and stand up for the Jewish people. Only then will Jews be impressed and one day want Jesus as their Messiah! The key to Jewish hearts is unconditional love. More Jewish people are loving Jesus today than at any time in history, and we’re told that our ministry is a big reason for that happening,” he wrote.

Jan Willem van de Hoeven, of the Jerusalem-based International Christian Embassy, has insisted that converting Jews is anti-Christian.

“Jesus and the apostles didn’t seek to make their fellow Jews ‘Christians,’ but to make them ‘better Jews,’” he said.

In an interview with the New York Times, Mr. van de Hoeven explained that those Jews who are converted under his group’s influence “remained faithful to their roots and to Israel.” How does he square converting to Christianity with faithfulness to Judaism?

In Canada, Christians for Israel is one of about a half-dozen similar pro-Israel organizations. They seek to educate Christians about two vital issues. Firstly, the importance of the return of Jewish people to Israel is a major sign pointing to the “end times,” and secondly that Christians must oppose anti-Semitism around the world and work to support Israel and Jewish people everywhere materially and spiritually.

One of their major efforts has been to partner with Exodus Project to assist Jews in the Ukraine in immigrating to Israel. Is there an agenda behind their admirable projects? Their publication, Christians for Israel Today, constantly speaks about how these good works will “provoke the Jews to jealousy.”

For Jews, this is a troubling refrain, especially in light of its New Testament implications.

At a Christians for Israel program, Rev. Willem Glashouwer gushed as he described how Christian volunteers for the Exodus Project “shared the love of Jesus” with homebound Jews.

Paul Wilbur, a “Hebrew Christian” recording artist, exulted as he described how “one of my dear friends is in Haifa today, to establish a Russian-speaking congregation to receive these immigrants.”

They’re clothing these immigrants with a ministry called “Tests of Mercy” and they’re bringing them into the salvation knowledge of Yeshua, he said.

“In Odessa in the Ukraine, three years ago in just three days we saw over 30,000 Jewish people come to know Jesus! They’re getting on the Christians for Israel buses and coming back to the land of Israel. The word of G-d says, ‘How can they believe unless someone preaches, and how can he preach unless he is sent?’ We can’t send ourselves, but you can send us,” he pleaded.

Leading “messianic rabbis” were also featured guests on a Christians for Israel cruise. The magazine, Christians for Israel Today included a full-page ad for the “Hebrew Christian” missionary program to honor the 50th anniversary of Israel that took place in Orlando.

Rev. John Tweedie, Vice-President of Christians for Israel International assured me that his organization will no longer include “Hebrew Christian” leaders in their programs. Was this a principled decision based upon their opposition to such groups, or simply a tactical move to appease the Jewish community?

Should we be concerned about the motivations of Evangelicals who extend themselves on behalf of Israel and Jewish people? If we don’t place any stock in the multitude of Christian speculations about various apocalyptic developments, who cares if they believe that their support of Israel will hasten the Rapture or the Battle of Armageddon?

However, if we suspect that they are “making nice” in order to lubricate the conversion process, why should we play along?

Most Jews lack the vital knowledge to penetrate the Christian Zionists’ rhetoric and “unconditional love.” And as a result we are ALL at risk of being “provoked to jealousy” which will lead to their (or their grandchildren’s) possible conversion to Christianity.

A different perspective - Itamar Ross defends the RZ/MO viewpoint

The following letter is a cogent attack on the Chareidi viewpoint. Because most of the criticism from the RZ/Mo in the present crisis has not dealt with the issues but rather just expresses their outrage and pain - this presentation is welcome. While I do not endorse his solutions - he defines the issues that we all ultimately need to address. It was originally left as a comment to "Messianic Jews are accepted as Jews for Law of Ret...":

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Rabbi Eidensohn, actually this has not been the least bit unnoticed. Not by Rav Druckman or by anyone who lives with and deals with immigrant society in Israel (and that includes giyur). Many of us have been dealing with this for quite a few years now in the only real ways possible: Through a tolerant, welcoming and broad-minded Torah education, and through a warm community welcome by the religious population.

(No, we don't yell and scream and make a chilul Hashem like Yad le-Achim. Instead we just try to welcome long-lost family members back into our family.)

What is important is not the Israeli Supreme Court. What really matters is the fact that the missionaries have been working so hard for so many years to create a reality of "Christian Jews". And they have succeeded.

Now contrast this to the conversion debate. You have a family that suffered Nazism and Communism but nevertheless survived with its Jewish identity intact. They immigrate to Israel as a family of Jews, though some are halakhically Jewish and some are not. In Israel they receive the stigma of being "goyim" from the frum world. Websites even post articles and comments about them being the "erev rav" while the missionaries welcome them with open arms.

(Think about it: A gentile woman suffers anti-Semitism because of who she married, but remains loyal and accompanies him to a distant land, and wants to join his people because she loves them, or for her children's sake--she is an "erev rav." There are tens of thousands of families just like this. But instead of the erev rav, they remind me more of Ruth...)

What happens to this family? Not just to the halakhic non-Jews in it, but even to the halakhic Jews? The missionaries appeal to both alike. What is the result to Israeli society and ultimately to Torah of an approach that is utterly indifferent to questions of identity and community and peoplehood within the makeup of a Jew or of a convert?

What have we done when families who eat matza for a week on Pesach, built a sukkah for sukkot, get married under a chuppah, say kiddush on Shabbat, risk their lives as Jews to fight for their country's survival, but then get their conversions "revoked" by a charedi beit din?

And the most horrific thing of all is when these values--identity and community and peoplehood--are called by Rabbi Eidensohn "Zionism" in direct opposition to "Halachah." As if "true halakhah" need not or should not deal with the reality of these values in Israeli life today because they are tainted with "Zionism..." Rabbi Eidensohn, isn't "Amech Ami" also a Torah value and a halachic one?

It's not "Zionism" versus "Halachah" but rather two completely different visions of how the Ribbono Shel Olam wants us to apply halachah in a reality that includes the State of Israel. Please Rabbi Eidensohn, in the future, state this fairly.

When the missionaries approach this same population, don't be surprised if they have a lot of success. And at least some of that success is in the direct zechus of Rav Elyashiv and the Badatz. Baruch Hashem that Rav Druckman and the RZ rabbonim are trying to do what they can...

Deja vu! - Conservative & Reform attack Israeli rabbinate for being more concerned with halacha than social reality

The following describes the problem from a different perspective. It is an exceprt of an article which appeared in The Associated of the Baltimore community. It is not a current article - but it does indicate clearly that the claims the RZ/MO have against the Chareidi view are exactly the claims of the Conservative movement against the RZ/MO view.
This illustrates that ultimately the issue is how to strike a proper balance between concern for halachic integrity and social needs/reality. What kind of consequences can we live with? What are our options?

On Eve of Shavuot, Conversion Still is a Divisive Issue in Israel

Dina Kraft TEL AVIV, May 18 (JTA) — As Jews around the world prepare for Shavuot and its reading of the Book of Ruth — which features the Moabite woman's famous conversion with the words, "Your people shall be my people and your God my God" — Israel continues to grapple with the highly charged subject of conversion.
Long a battleground between Israel's Orthodox establishment and the Conservative and Reform movements, the issue took on urgency with the mass wave of immigration from the former Soviet Union in the 1990s. "I think Ruth and her conversion should indeed set the model for the current challenge of converting the Russians who live among us," said Rabbi Ehud Bandel, president of the Masorti-Conservative movement in Israel. "Once they identify with Israel and the Jewish people and society and accept the Jewish faith, they must be embraced exactly as Naomi embraced Ruth, who became the grandmother of King David." Bandel and others claim that Israel's chief rabbinate makes conversion especially difficult for those they suspect may not lead an Orthodox lifestyle. "The real challenge is that unfortunately, the Orthodox establishment does not convert for Judaism but for Orthodoxy," Bandel said. The rabbinate is "reluctant to open its arms to Russian converts because everyone knows they will not be Orthodox." Rabbi Eliyahu Ben-Dahan, general director of the rabbinical court of Israel — which oversees conversions — says there can be no shortcuts when it comes to following halachah, or Jewish law, with regard to conversions. Orthodox authorities say Jewish law requires that converts undergo traditional ritual conversion and commit to adhering to all the precepts of Jewish law, or halachah. Non-Orthodox streams contend that these authorities inevitably interpret halachah as Orthodox observance. "If they think we will give up on halachah, then of course we cannot," Ben-Dahan said. "At the end of the day, the ones who want to convert, do convert," he said. "We are doing all we can do." As many as 300,000 of the nearly 1 million immigrants who came to Israel in the 1990s from the former Soviet Union are not considered Jews under Jewish law. They pay taxes and serve in the army, but can't marry Jews in Israel or be buried in Jewish cemeteries. On their Israeli identity cards, the category for religion is left blank. It's a void that activists from the non-Orthodox streams of Judaism are trying to fill by lobbying for broader acceptance in conversion processes. "They live as Jews but are not considered Jews," Gilad Kariv, a lawyer and ordained Reform rabbi who works for the movement's lobbying arm, said of the Russian immigrants. Prevented from converting, the immigrants' level of identification with the Jewish state eventually goes down, he said. "They feel less Israeli, less Jewish, and this is a problem in Israel — this lack of accessibility to Judaism," he said. Kariv cites statistics from the Jewish Agency for Israel showing that close to half of the non-Jewish immigrants when asked before they moved to Israel said they wanted to convert. Asked after their move to Israel, only 10 percent to 20 percent said they still wanted to convert. Rabbi Chaim Druckman, who served in the Knesset as a member of the National Religious Party, has just taken up a new post as director of conversion affairs in the Prime Minister's Office. The position was established largely to deal with immigrants who may have Jewish ancestry but are not Jewish according to Jewish law, which accepts as Jews only those with Jewish mothers. "Those who want to convert need to be helped," Druckman told JTA. "We need to help these people and let them know we do want them." In 1998, a government commission on conversion, headed by then-Finance Minister Ya'acov Ne'eman, issued recommendations to the government. They included the establishment of a joint institute for conversion taught by a combination of Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform rabbis. The liberal streams agreed that those wishing to convert would then go to a Beit Din, or Jewish law court, for an Orthodox ceremony that would be universally recognized. Orthodox representatives did not sign on to the final recommendation, but the conversion institute has been established since, with branches across the country. Currently, it serves 2,500 students and is funded by the Jewish Agency and the government. Catering to immigrants, most classes are run in Russian. Some are conducted in Spanish for South American immigrants. The institute's executive director, Nehemia Citroen, said he thinks the government realizes how critical it is to facilitate the conversion process for new immigrants. "I believe the leadership here in this country in all realms understands the enormity of the problem, understands the situation by which hundreds of thousands of immigrants are brought here and told they are not Jewish," he said. "All those in leadership positions, including religious positions, have to see the reality of the situation today and allow for answers." In the four years since the institute was founded, 3,256 people have finished their conversion studies and 1,367 have been converted. But Bandel bemoaned the figure as "just a drop in the ocean." He and others say there's a backlog at the rabbinical courts for students from the institute. Critics also claim that those who study in Orthodox-run conversion classes have an easier time being converted by the rabbinical courts.[...]

Messianic Jews are accepted as Jews for Law of Return

While the debate of the conversions of Rav Druckman are the center of focus, another bomb was dropped almost unnoticed. The Messianic Jews have won the right of return as Jews. The following are articles written by the Messianics describing their victory - headed by Calev Myers of the Jerusalem Institute of Justice. He is also associated with Southeastern university that is building in Jerusalem. The material cited here was sent by Jersey Girl.
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Headline News Friday, April 25, 2008 Jerusalem Institute for Justice

Israeli Supreme Court rules in favor of Messianic Jews

The following is a press release issued by Jerusalem Institute for Justice co-founder Calev Meyers: In a landmark decision this week, the Supreme Court of Israel ratified a settlement between twelve Messianic Jewish believers and the State of Israel, which states that being a Messianic Jew does not prevent one from receiving citizenship in Israel under the Law of Return or the Law of Citizenship, if one is a descendent of Jews on one's father's side (and thus not Jewish according to halacha). This Supreme Court decision brought an end to a legal battle that has carried on for two and a half years. The applicants were represented by Yuval Grayevsky and Calev Myers from the offices of Yehuda Raveh & Co., and their legal costs were subsidized by the Jerusalem Institute of Justice. All twelve of the applicants were denied citizenship solely based on grounds that they belong to the Messianic Jewish community. Most of them received letters stating that they would not receive citizenship because they "commit missionary activity". One of the applicants was told by a clerk at the Ministry of Interior that because she "committed missionary activity", she is "acting against the interests of the State of Israel and against the Jewish people". These allegations are not only untrue, but they also do not constitute legal grounds to deny one's right to immigrate to Israel. This important victory paves the way for persons who have Jewish ancestry on their father's side to immigrate to Israel freely, whether or not they belong to the Messianic Jewish community. This is yet another battle won in our war to establish equality in Israel for the Messianic Jewish community just like every other legitimate stream of faith within the Jewish world.

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The following was an interview with Calev Myers published in the Florida newspaper The Ledger

Messianic Jew Forms a Bond At Southeastern

By Robin Williams Adams

LAKELAND | Calev Myers battles discrimination against a religious minority in Israel that most people in the United States don't know exists.

Myers belongs to a group of believers who are Jewish and proud of their heritage, but who consider Jesus the Messiah.

That makes some Jewish people here and abroad uncomfortable, even angry, and in Israel has led to confrontations.

Myers, in the forefront of key legal battles for the rights of Messianic Jews, was commencement speaker Saturday for Southeastern University.

"I was not intending to be the Messianic Jewish Robin Hood ... but God had other plans," he told about 340 students, their families and friends during the ceremony at Church Without Walls in Lakeland.

Those plans, he said, led him into college, then law school, after spending several years working with his hands as a goldsmith and carpenter.

He developed an awareness of social injustice that prompted him to found, and serve as chief counsel of, The Jerusalem Institute of Justice, and has put him before Israel's highest court two times.

Earlier this month, he won a case brought on behalf of 12 Messianic Jews who had been unable to get the citizenship promised Jews born elsewhere who return to Israel to live.

The country's "Law of Return" says people who are born Jewish can come to Israel from any other country and receive citizenship.

Exactly who is a Jew, however, is "at the heart of the debate of the Jewish world," Myers said.

Someone born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, according to the law.

The High Court of Justice said April 16, in a precedent-setting ruling, that being a Messianic Jew can't prevent obtaining Israeli citizenship if the Jewish descent is on the father's side.

Most of the 12 represented in that case had received letters saying they committed "missionary activity," which some government officials said was against the interests of the state and the Jewish people.

In a case 15 years ago, the high court said Messianic Jews had converted and weren't Jewish, according to The Jerusalem Post.

Asked Friday what he means by saying he is a Messianic Jew, the American-born Israeli lawyer said he is "saying that I am biologically from a Jewish background. I identify with the Jewish people. I celebrate the Jewish holidays. I see myself as an integral part of the Jewish culture, but I believe in Jesus as the promised Messiah based on Jewish Scriptures."

Myers, 34, was in Lakeland as document bearer as well as speaker. He brought with him the lease Southeastern President Mark Rutland signed Friday for a building the university will use for study in Jerusalem.

Rutland, introducing Myers, praised his legal work on discrimination cases.

Myers focused more on the need he sees for further action to spread knowledge of Jesus. Southeastern graduates can help Israeli believers in Jesus by educating their congregations, praying for Israel and aligning themselves with Messianic Jewish congregations.

Rutland, responding, told Southeastern students who plan to study in Jerusalem they will join Jerusalem Institute of Justice volunteers who pick up trash in Jerusalem's poorest neighborhoods to build a platform of caring. They also may visit Myers' congregation.

"We are delighted to enter into a new and loving relationship with this congregation," Rutland said.

Messianic Jews are blamed for many things in Israel, Myers said, but "favor is coming on the Jewish believers in Israel today."

He urged Jewish believers from around the world to relocate to Israel, as his family did when he was 18.

"We believe the day is coming, friends, when Jesus once again will reveal himself to Israel, to the Jewish people," he said.

80 Relgious Zionist Orthodox Rabbis condemn - Supreme Rabbinical Court ruling against Rav Druckman

Yossi said...

Rabbi Eidensohn, you should find this interesting and perhaps something you should post. An entire world of Torah, in wall-to-wall agreement, condemns Rav Sherman's psak.

YNET article

Including Rabbis: Yaakov Ariel, Tzephania Drori, Aharon Lichtenstein, Aharon Tzukerman, Daniel Sperber, Yoel bin-Nun, Avi Gisser, Re'em Hakohen, Yaakov Meidan... and the list goes on and on and on. ALL of the greatest Torah scholars in a huge, vibrant world that includes hundreds the best yeshivot, schools, and other such institutions in the world.

Rav Lichtenstein writes (my translation): "How much hatred, grudge and demonization there is in this awful and terrible psak... The Conversion Authority has God-fearing and scholarly judges who have devoted their energy and their lives to the Torah. They cannot be pushed away and thrown into the street. We must be strong on this point: There is no giving into this kind of language and attitude... Where did we ever hear or see that someone who relies on a minority opinion against the commonly held one is considered a willing apikorus? Woe to the ears that hear such a thing and woe to the biased court that has expressed itself in such a way!"

Now that's real Daas Torah for all of us.

Attention Please! New challenger to the established Chareidi/MO geirus business

Recipients and Publicity wrote the following:

Open Orthodoxy's challenge to Haredi Judaism on every front.

Something VERY important in this post may have slipped below the radar because they are new developments, and Orthodox world, particularly in America as well as in Israel, needs to sit up and take note of it because it is already impacting the way Modern Orthdoxy is gearing itself up to fight and ignore rulings like those in Israel that came from Rav Sherman negating Rav Druckman, see the Canadian Jewish News article below.

If one looks at the signatories of the declaration of support for Rav Druckman by Rabbis Marc Angel, Avi Weiss, Saul Berman and Shlomo Riskin, who are, by the way, the elite of the elite of YU's most charismatic alumni and they are also established long-time leaders of the left wing of Modern Orthodoxy, one must note that two of the names officially sign as:

Rabbi Avraham Weiss and Rabbi Marc D. Angel, Co-Chairmen, International Rabbinic Fellowship

Rabbi Saul Berman, Chairman, International Rabbinic Fellowship Geirut Committee

And one must therefore ask WHAT is the International Rabbinic Fellowship? and WHAT is the International Rabbinic Fellowship GEIRUT Committee?

The organization is new and is tied in with Rabbi Weiss's new ultra-Modern Orthodox "YCT" Yeshiva Chovevei Torah http://www.yctorah.org/ (against which the Aguda-leaning mouth-piece YATED NE'EMAN in America has published lngthy open and scornful articles, (see http://openorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2007/02/yated-exposes-yct-as-threat-to-halachic.html Monday, February 26, 2007: "Yated exposes YCT as a 'Threat to Halachic Judaism'" and http://www.canonist.com/?p=1003 Yated Ne’eman Attacks Chovevei) warning Agudist Torah Jews to reject and stay away from YCT and its graduates [some YCT graduates are already grabbing rabbinical jobs in places Aguda type yeshivas had hoped to place there alumni].)

Anyhow, there is a website at [REMOVED WRONG LINK] for this new Modern Orthodox conglomerate of yeshiva/rabbinic organization/beit din, that, while it is made up of YU's elite alumni and members in good standing of the RCA, yet, with huge financial backing, like from Howard Jonas of IDT Corporation (http://www.idt.net/) and others, they have managed to set a new denomination of Orthodoxy that they call "Open Orthodoxy" whatever that may mean (and they do have their own interpretations and agendas).

Based on the press release on this post, it is important to note that Rabbi Shlomo Riskin also adds his name to it, and that while Rabbi Riskin is not formally affiliated with YCT because he has his own network of yeshivas and institutions in Israel, he is nevertheless part of the original "triumvirate" of Rabbi Avi Weiss and Rabbi Saul Berman (who headed the now defunct EDAH organization http://www.edah.org/ that had as its mission statement "The courage to be modern and Orthodox").

The statement is undersigned by:

Rabbi Marc D. Angel, Founder and Director
Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals
8 West 70th Street
New York, NY 10023
212 362 4764

So one must ask WHAT is the "Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals"?

Rabbi Marc Angel had worked independently until now (as the head of Congregation Shearith Israel, The Spanish and Portuguese Synagogue in the City of New York http://www.sephardicstudies.org/csi.html ) and since 2007 he heads the Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals

http://www.jewishideas.org/about

From its own website: "The Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals offers a vision of Orthodox Judaism that is intellectually sound, spiritually compelling, and emotionally satisfying... The Institute works for an intellectually vibrant, compassionate and inclusive Orthodoxy."

Now Rabbi Angel joins with the de facto ruling ultra-modern Orthodox rabbinical triumvirate (a Bais Din?) of Riskin, Berman and Weiss who all have known highly brilliant and innovative minds, are all highly outspoken and actvists since their student days, and were considered the most popular and best rebbeim at YU and Stern College during their lengthy teaching careers at YU and its related schools and it can be said beyond a doubt that they have tens of thousands of students, disciples and followers who were influenced by them and drawn to their liberal, activist and even LIBERATIONIST outlook of Orthodox Judaism.

They have all broken with the YU and RCA establishments and set up their own rival schools and institution to the left of the YU and RCA establishments whom they regard and kow-towing and caving in to right wing pressures from the Charedi world.

Rabbi Riskin has a very powerful following among the Modern Orthodox mainstream, so his name on this declaration is significant. He was even recently considered as a possible successor to Rabbi Norman Lamm as Dean and Rosh Yeshiva of YU in America, but he does not need it because he has his own empire in Israel and an ongoing following on the Upper West Side having been the founding rabbi and is the ongoing sage-emeritus of the flagship Modern Orthodox Lincoln Square Synagogue http://www.lss.org/ from where the wealthy still give him lots of help, and where, it MUST be noted, Rabbi EPHRAIM BUCHWALD is still the OUTREACH RABBI and heads the NJOP: National Jewish Outreach Program http://www.njop.org/ that does CONTROVERSIAL outreach TOGETHER with REFORM and CONSERVATIVE synagogues and it is know that gentiles exist in great numbers in these type of places and attend all NJOP programs that would lead to conversion issues, no doubt about it, and for which it was condemned by the Agudas Harabbonim in The Jewish Press, March 7, 2003:

"Kiruv and Halacha: In answer to many inquiries whethwr the Agudas Harabonim approves of the 'Shabbat Across America/Canada' calls...one is not allowed to pray in Reform and Conservative Temple...Therefore [it] cannot approve of a call to attend a Reform or Conservative Temple on a Friday night..." , see also in this regard: http://truejews.org/Igud_Historic_Declaration.htm

"A HISTORIC DECLARATION: The Union of Orthodox Rabbis of the United States and Canada (Agudath Harabonim) hereby declares: Reform and Conservative are not Judaism at all. Their adherents are Jews, according to the Jewish Law, but their religion is not Judaism.

Rabbi Riskin also has the full backing of Morry J. Weiss, chairman of the board of American Greetings Corporation http://corporate.americangreetings.com/, and who also happens to be the Chairman of Board of Trustees of YU, (see Morry Weiss Assumes Leadership of Yeshiva Trustees http://media.www.yucommentator.com/media/storage/paper652/news/2004/09/20/News/Morry.Weiss.Assumes.Leadership.Of.Yeshiva.Trustees-715248.shtml ) and son in law and succesor to Irving Stone (of Stone Chumash fame). Rabbi Riskin's Ohr Torah-Stone Institutions http://www.ohrtorahstone.org.il/ are important bastions of Modern Orthodoxy and Religious Zionism in Israel headed solely by Rabbi Riskin and therefore his support of the statement against Rav Sherman, as signed on this press release, is very important that will no doubt have strong ramifications as all these rabbis will speak out and be very vocal and militant against the rulings issued by Rav Sherman.

Following are three recent articles that make it very clear that we will be hearing a lot more from this group as the controversy over conversions/rabbis/bateidin

/Religious Zionism unfold, and it will not be a pretty sight to experience, behold or stomach:

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The Canadian Jewish News

http://www.cjnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14674&Itemid=86

Wednesday 14th of May 2008 9 Iyyar 5768

Modern Orthodoxy decides to fight back

Opinion
By RABBI MARTIN LOCKSHIN
Thursday, 15 May 2008

In 2006, The Canadian Jewish News ran a series of articles on modern Orthodox Judaism. Many readers saw those articles as evidence of the decline of modern Orthodoxy and its gradual replacement by more haredi types of Orthodox Judaism.

Those so inclined might find even more evidence now that modern Orthodoxy is in trouble. A number of issues have arisen recently, but none is of more concern than conflicts concerning conversion.

Here in Israel, where I am spending my sabbatical from York University, rabbinic courts have state sanction and rabbis are often appointed to them as political favours. As haredi political parties have grown in size and the National Religious Party has shrunk, state rabbinic courts are increasingly run by rabbis who are inimical to the values of modernity and unconcerned about the issues of Israeli society at large.
[...]


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The New York Jewish Week

http://www.thejewishweek.com/viewArticle/c37_a8941/News/National.html

04/30/2008

Taking On The RCA?
New rabbinical group launched to counter rightward shift in Modern Orthodoxy.

by Gary Rosenblatt
Editor and Publisher

In a move certain to be seen as an effort to compete with the Rabbinical Council of America — the largest group of Orthodox rabbis — two vocal critics this week launched a clerical group called the International Rabbinic Fellowship.
[...]


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The Jewish daily FORWARD

http://www.forward.com/articles/12864/

Rabbis Form New Orthodox Organization

By Anthony Weiss
Thu. Mar 06, 2008

After years of tension between more liberal and conservative elements of the American Orthodox Jewish establishment, several liberal Orthodox rabbis have banded together to create a new rabbinic organization that offers an alternative to traditional Orthodox authorities.
[...]

Jewish Press editorial - Continuing Conversion Crisis

The Jewish Press just ran an editorial lamenting the current conversion crisis. While it does summarize the different views it offers no solution.

=======================

In a recent series of editorials spanning several months, this page has been drawing attention to an emerging crisis regarding conversions in Israel. The crisis has largely been caused by a government initiative intended to promote mass conversions of Russian immigrants to Judaism in order to increase the “Jewish” population of Israel.
This initiative was undertaken despite the halachic imperative that conversions are ordinarily to be discouraged and in any event subject to the exacting requirements of Jewish law. That is, if the procedures are not scrupulously followed, the ostensible converts are not Jewish, with all that brings with it.
This past week the issue emerged in full fury with a clash between the governmental agency – the so-called Conversion Authority – charged with increasing the number of Jews through conversions and the rabbinic court charged with implementing the exacting halachic standards for conversions. Israel’s Supreme Rabbinical Court voted to uphold an Ashdod bet din’s nullification of a woman’s conversion to Judaism on the grounds that at the conversion proceeding she was never asked whether she agreed to abide by all halachic requirements. Also, the court took judicial notice that the overwhelming majority of Russian immigrants converted under the auspices of the Conversion Authority were not observant – which the court said cast doubt on the procedures followed by the Conversion Authority. In addition, the conversions presided over by the rabbinic head of the Conversion Authority were held to be presumptively suspect because he had allegedly certified at least one conversion at which he had not been present.
[....]
(click on link for full article).

Read more >> Options >>

Knesset member against Supreme Rabbinical Court rejection of Rav Druckmans' conversions

Recipients and Publicity wrote:

Opposing view against Rav Sherman's ruling from a Knesset member published in Haaretz
(click on link for full article)
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The opposition to the Supreme Rabbinical Court ruling is not just from the Religious Zionist/Modern Orthodox rabbis. It also comes from the Israeli/Zionist secular society.
May 10, 2008

A split from Israeli society

By MK Menachem Ben Sasson Kadima) is the chairman of the Knesset's Constitution, Law and Justice Committee.

The Supreme Rabbinic Court's ruling last week, which voided conversions carried out by the rabbinic courts of the Conversion Administration, only speeds up the collapse of rabbinic authority in the state judicial system.

The verdict may be framed in legalese, but it should not be misunderstood. Every one of its 49 pages may be headed "The State of Israel," but the pronouncement represents nothing less than a split from Israeli society, the state and the national justice system.

The rabbinic courts' opponents should be pleased with this verdict and wait patiently for a few others like it to topple the rabbinic court system altogether.

Institutional authority in modern society does not derive merely from an institution's official status, nor from its formal power. It is based mainly on public consensus and the understanding that without proper institutions, people would devour each other.

The Supreme Rabbinic Court's ruling does not only void a specific decision by the conversion court but stipulates that its judges, rabbis Haim Druckman and Yosef Avior, are unfit and all their conversions are null and void. The Rabbinic Court is invalidating a legal instance that derives its formal authority from the same source as the Rabbinic Court - an official state appointment. By so doing, it leads the way to having its own courts treated in a similar fashion.

[...]

The loss of confidence in religious institutions is being accelerated mainly because of the distress of non-Jewish immigrants. They were given a partial remedy in the form of the conversion courts. Now the Supreme Rabbinic Court is obstructing the only two ways some 400,000 Israeli citizens can integrate into Israeli society - marriage and conversion.

[...]

Pulling the rug out from under the feet of yesterday's converts and digging a hole in front of tomorrow's is unacceptable. It will shatter what's left of the public consensus that the Supreme Rabbinic Court is worthy of running family issues in Israel. The court's revoking past and future conversions is tantamount to destroying the house and everyone inside.

Canadian perspective on the conversion crisis

The Canadian Jewish News presents a survey of responses to the ruling of the Supreme Rabbinical Court against Rav Druckman's conversions.
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Conversion controversy rears head in Israel

By PAUL LUNGEN, Staff Reporter

Thursday, 15 May 2008

A decision by a haredi rabbinic appeal court in Israel has called into question the legitimacy of thousands of conversions by a respected Israeli halachic authority and prompted a heated and strongly worded rebuke from an Orthodox rabbis’ group.

At the same time, two rabbis associated with the Toronto Vaad Harabonim (Orthodox rabbinical council) say the Israeli decision will likely have no impact on conversions approved by the council’s beit din (rabbinical court).

In Montreal, meanwhile, the Israeli decision received the full support of the Orthodox Jewish Community Council, whose spokesperson, Rabbi Saul Emanuel, said “we will honour and respect this judgement.”

[Click on the link for the full article]

Jewish attitude towards gerim as manifested towards the Erev Rav

Recipients and Publicity has raised an important point regarding the nature of gerus. What are the lessons to be learned from the Erev Rav? He asserts in the following excerpt [from a longer comment] that we learn a postive attitude because Moshe accepted as converts those who would not meet modern standards - and he never apologized to G-d for this decision. His assertions involve a number of major concerns as to how we learn lessons from our Mesora - both written and oral. He also has expressed irritation about being misunderstood and therefore I want to allow him to clarify the issues here I am also including some of the comments related to this issue. While it is obvious that we are in serious disagreement - I think we have much to gain by focusing on his assertions. [Useful Kabbalistic source material is found on Mishpat Tzedek ]
==========================
Recipients and Publicity wrote
While the hysteria against accepting converts to Judaism gains steam bordering on irrational xenophobia, and while a number of very limited and parochial arguments may make some sense, and while no Orthodox rabbi or Jew in his right mind denies that the Halachah, meaning Kabolas ol mitzvas by the ger, must remain the only guidepost and criterian in this arena, YET, nevertheless one must also have in mind what the Torah, Tanach and the various eras of the Jewish history teach us.

[...]


Then it was Moshe Rabbeinu who took out the eruv rav (mixed multitude) from Egypt who the Jewish sages say were converted. The mixed multitude caused many problems but even at the worst time of the egel (golden calf) Moshe never apologised to G-d for taking them out of Egypt when G-d called them (the eruv rav) "your" (i.e. Moshe's) nation. Moshe's attitude to the eruv rav is puzzling and fascinating and why he saw fit to accept them is even more of a challenge to comprehend, but the fact remains that he accepted mixed types of non-Israelite people from Egypt who would not meet many of today's conversion standards ab initio if they were to be judged by Rav Shternbuch for example. Perhaps it was because Moshe understood the nature of TRUE geirei tzedek: He was rescued by the daughter of Paroh who came to be called Basya (duaghter of G-d) for her act of saving the infant baby in the Nile who would become the redeemer of the Jews from Egypt, or perhaps it was because Moshe married Tzipora who was a convert and that later Moshe's father-in-law Yitro became the first major convert after the giving of the Torah.


Recipients and Publicity also said...

I had no idea that what is recorded in the Torah and Tanach needs more sources.

I was also not endorsing and supporting the acceptance of any gentile who wishes to become a ger with a blank check.

My main point, in the eye of this storm of disputes and your for request sources of all sorts, is that one must NOT forget what the Torah and Tanach had the honesty and openess to retain and not hide for the record that from the times of Avraham and Sarah until the present time that Judaism is not a religion that is closed off to anyone

So it is strange you ask for sources because your sources are only SECONDARY SOURCES whereas the sources I cite are the core original PRIMARY SOURCES !!!!

===============
I objected to his analysis with the following


I think we finally have reached the basis of our disagreement on many issues.
I have never heard an Orthodox Jew describe Chazal or Rishonim or Achronim as secondary sources. You are presenting a fundamentalist literal reading of Tanach as superior to one that is viewed through the eyes of our Sages as well as Rishonim and Achronim.

While this is the understanding of some academics, maskillim and karaites - it is simply not acceptable to anyone I know who calls himself an Orthodox Jew.

"Keep your children from higayon" Rashi explains that you should not educate your children to understand Tanach independent of the explanation of our Sages.[Berachos 28b]

Recipients and Publicity responded to my criticism

To Daas Torah of May 13, 2008 11:14 PM:

As far as I know, this Blog is not a kindergarten nor is it a place to get lectured about where or how to start an intelliegent discussion(and all that these things on this Blog are is just discussions, for none of us are poskim).

I challenge you: How can anyone claim to be an learned Orthodox Jew if they do not accept the Torah and Tanach as the devar H-shem?

Can you point out where I am being too "literalist" for you? Were Avraham and Sarah not geirim and called by the sages (not by the Torah) techila legerim? Does not Rashi (not the Torah) say, quoting Chazal that Batya was coming down to the Nile to convert when she spotted Moshe? Were not Tzipora and her father gerim and does not Rashi and the Ramban discuss at what point did Yisro come to Moshe and convert? The conversion of Ruth and the principle that allowed it of "moavi velo mo'aviya" is not in the Tanach, it is the chazal who teach about it. The sages and kabbalists themselves struggle to understand why the soul of mashiach has to come from "sparks" hidden in alien people like Ruth who is the one to be the mother of royalty and not a "meyucheses from a Chasidic dynasty" and it is not in the Tanach. Why Shlomo did what he did is just as good a question as asking why Rav Druckma did what he did, if not better. I had no idea that Yiddishkeit prohibted questions of this kind, unless you have an aganda of course to destroy other Jews who hold by Religious Zionism that was not founded by me (and I do not support Mizrachi for the record) but by gedolim like Rav Reines and Rav Kook and Rav JB Soloveichik, even though they were a minorty they matter because Yiddishkeit does not crush genuine opposing views. It is not the Tanach that says that Nevuzaradan converted but it is in the Gemora, and it is also the Gemora that says that Nero went off to become a ger as did many others who were like the famous Rebbe Meir in the mishna as far as I heard it explained. Is all this too much for you that you must resort to lines like "While this is the understanding of some academics, maskillim and karaites - it is simply not acceptable to anyone I know who calls himself an Orthodox Jew."? What a great pity!

I had no idea that "Chazal or Rishonim or Achronim" rejected the Torah and the Tanach, and nowhere is what I stated solely based on either the Torah or the Tanach alone -- I have striven mightily to combine the words of the Torah SheBichtav with the Torah SheBeal Peh -- and you can go ahead and read for yourself again very carefully that I have included Chazal (from multiple Midrashim) or Rishonim (many Rashis and at least one Rambam) or Achronim (Kabbalists) and even relying on modern day gedolim, such as Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky, Rav Hutner, and others who URGE and ENCOURAGE the learning of Tanach, as well quoting Tannoim and Amoroim from the Gemora and the Talmud.

While for the sake of keeping the flow of my presentation moving I may not have specifically mentioned the names of Rashi's and other Gemoras, they are very present and evident to the knowledgeable reader and they are plentiful in my above comments and you can see that for yourself, so that you are being too DISMISSIVE (a bad habit, even for one claiming to talk for Daas Torah) and much too rough and abrupt in your rejection of my words (similar to your description of my words as "paranoid" when you disliked some earlier comments) rather than showing me word for word that what I have said is not true which is not the case.

Recipients and Publicity wrote to Bright Eyes

Your points about the eruv rav are off the mark. I was not saying and the chumash does not say that they asked to be part of the Israelites or that they should or shouldn't be counted as Israelites. That was not my point in this regard.

What I was saying was that nowhere in the Chumash did Moshe apologise to H-shem for his decision to take the eruv rav out of Egypt with the Bani Yisrael (and it was a jailbreak for EVERYONE by the way because Paroh fought against the Jews' leaving Egypt and even pursued them... do you even understand basic Chumash?) and at no point is there a command to kill them. They remain as the eruv rav, and there are midrashim that say that the eruv rav converted, regardles of how you wish to understand or misunderstand that.

No one says that they were tsadikim either, that is also not the point, just that they were not as bad as Amelek that needed to be killed out as the Torah commanded.

Supreme Rabbinical Court ruling - English summary

Rebbitzen's Husband has posted an extensive English summary of the 55 page Hebrew ruling of the Rabbinical Supreme Court. From the parts I have read it seems to be an excellent job. For part I click here

Judaism as a missionary religion?

While there is heated debate within Orthodox circles regarding the standards of conversion - there are others who would accept anyone who wants to be Jewish or thinks they are Jewish. In addition they want to actively proselytize. This is an excerpt of an article in Haaretz. The director Dr. Tobin is also associated with Rabbi Vinas

==============================================

U.S. think-tank aims to infuse Jewish life with dashes of color

_{By Rebecca Spence, The Forward Correspondent}

SAN FRANSISCO - Go to almost any Jewish conference and you'll likely find the ethnic makeup to be largely, and unsurprisingly, white.

But at a recent plenum in San Francisco, a group championing ethnic diversity in Jewish life turned that situation on its head, as scores of black, Latino and Asian Jews from around the world came together to grapple with the challenges they face gaining acceptance in the mainstream Jewish world.

The group of 80 Jewish leaders from 31 different countries - including Uganda, South Africa and Portugal - who gathered the first weekend this month for the Be'Chol Lashon International Think Tank had one clear message for the Jewish community: Open your doors to diversity. The sixth annual event, organized by Be'Chol Lashon - a Bay Area initiative dedicated to fostering diversity in Jewish life - and fittingly held at the Hotel Kabuki in the heart of San Francisco's Japantown, centered this year on questions of conversion and whether Judaism might take a more proactive role in gaining adherents.


As demographic studies in recent years have shown a shrinking American Jewish population, the organized Jewish community has poured millions of dollars into strengthening identity in young Jews. But the mainstream response to the so-called population crisis, which has resulted in a slew of identity-building projects - among them, Birthright Israel, a program that takes tens of thousands of American Jews in their teens and 20s on free trips to the Jewish state - is not the solution, according to Diane and Gary Tobin, co-founders of Be'Chol Lashon. The organization, whose name is Hebrew for "in every tongue," was established eight years ago in the wake of the Tobins' 1997 adoption of an African American boy.

Gary Tobin, a Jewish researcher who is president of San Francisco's Institute for Jewish & Community Research, contends that only through welcoming converts of all ethnicities and breaking down the barriers to conversion will the Jewish people be able to reverse the trend of dwindling population numbers. Tobin is referring not just to welcoming converts who are married to Jews, but also to reaching out to non-Jews generally.

"If we think that going to Jewish day school or trips to Israel are going to save the Jewish people, it's just silly," Tobin said. "The response of the organized Jewish community has been to circle the wagons, and what this room represents is the possibility of expansion, not constriction,? he said, referring to the conference participants.

The driving philosophy behind Be'Chol Lashon, Tobin added, is that Jews should, in fact, "be competing in the marketplace of world religion." If Jews began reaching out across color lines, the number of Jews in America alone could increase, over the next quarter of a century, to 12 million from 6 million, he said.

Due to Chief Rabbi Amar's silence - rabbis delay converts' marriages

The following appeared in the Jerusalem Post. Clink on the link for the full article.

Rabbis delay converts' marriages

by Matthew Wagner , THE JERUSALEM POST May. 11, 2008

Rabbis responsible for registering Jewish Israelis for marriage said Sunday they would not register converts for marriage until Sephardi Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar issues a definitive rejection of a High Rabbinical Court decision that cast doubt on the validity of thousands of conversions.

"Before I can register a convert for marriage as a full-fledged Jew, I'll have to consult with Chief Rabbi Amar," said Rabbi Ratzon Arussi, chairman of the Rabbinate's Marriage Council.

Rabbis in Ramat Gan and Jerusalem concurred with Arussi's call.

"Rabbi Amar has to voice his opinion on this issue," said Ramat Gan Chief Rabbi Ya'acov Ariel. "He is the final authority on conversions."

[...]

Several days after the decision was published, Amar issued a general statement that all conversion would be recognized. But Amar did not directly address the accusations raised by Sherman against Druckman.

Rabbis want Amar to issue a clear halachic decision on the status of conversions carried out by Druckman.

Amar's spokesman said the chief rabbi intends to convene the Chief Rabbinate's governing council to discuss the issue and reach a definitive decision. But before the council can be convened new elections must be called.

[...]

Eternal Jewish Family supports Supreme Rabbinical Court ruling against Rabbi Druckman's conversions

Eternal Jewish Family issued a statement strongly supporting the ruling of the Supreme Rabbincal Court against Rabbi Druckman's conversions. Click on links for full article and comments.

The International Committee on Giyur, founded by the late Rabbi Chaim Kreiswirth, Chief Rabbi of Antwerp, has issued a strong letter of support for the decision by the Rabbinical Supreme Court of the Chief Rabbinate invalidating all conversions performed since 1999 by Rabbi Chaim Drukman, the head of the Conversion Authority. The Committee, which is headed by Rabbi Nachum Eisenstein, said that only converts that “accept mitzvos at the time of giyur” may be considered halachacially converted. It noted that “even if it becomes clear that the ger did not accept mitzvos at the time of giyur and subsequently did observe mitzvos, the conversion is invalid.”
[...]
The Eternal Jewish Family (EJF) in a statement said that the large number of conversions that were recently ruled invalid by the Rabbinical Supreme Court is “further proof of the urgency of adopting universal conversion standards that are based on the opinions of major halachic authorities.” EJF is the leading international organization that has been in the forefront of promulgating universal conversion standards in intermarriage under the guidance of leading Gedolei Hatorah in the US and Israel.

Rabbi Marc Angel defends Rabbi Druckman and elucidates his agenda

We read with horror that the High Rabbinical Court of Israel has upheld a lower court decision which declared invalid all conversions performed since 1999 by Rabbi Haim Drukman, head of the Conversion Authority of Israel.

As Orthodox rabbis, we believe that this decision is motivated by political interests rather than by the search for Halachic integrity and religious truth. The outcome is morally repugnant, and is an outrage to Rabbi Drukman and his colleagues who are attempting, within the confines of Halacha, to resolve a fundamental challenge to the social and religious well-being of the Jewish State - the religious integration into the Jewish People of hundreds of thousands of Russian non-Jews living in Israel as full citizens, loyal to the State and to the People of Israel.

This decision is an abuse of rabbinic power, highly detrimental to the well-being of the Jewish people.

We affirm that all those who have converted under the aegis of R. Drukman and the Conversion Authority of Israel, are Jewish without question. To oppress them by casting doubt on their Jewish status is a sin of the first magnitude, an express violation of multiple Biblical commandments.

We urge the State of Israel, the worldwide Orthodox Rabbinate and the Jewish people at large to repudiate this decision of the High Rabbinical Court of Israel; to affirm the Jewishness of all Halachic converts; to treat all converts with the love and respect to which they are entitled according to the laws of Torah.

Rabbi Avraham Weiss and Rabbi Marc D. Angel, Co-Chairmen, International Rabbinic Fellowship

Rabbi Saul Berman, Chairman, International Rabbinic Fellowship Geirut Committee

Rabbi Shlomo Riskin, Chief Rabbi of Efrat

--
Rabbi Marc D. Angel, Founder and Director
Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals
8 West 70th Street
New York, NY 10023
212 362 4764

Significant objections to Rabbi Druckman's conversions are not new

One gets the impression reading many of the comments about the current conversion crisis - that it is simply politics - with Rabbi Druckman the victim because he is not chareidi.

Unfortunately this is not the case. There have been serious objections to Rabbi Druckman's conversions for many years - on the basis of halachic concerns as well as legal ones.

De'ah veDibur (a.k.a Yated) reported the following in 2006

De'ah veDibur reported the following in 2007

De'ah veDibur reported the following in 2000

De'ah veDibur reported the following in 1999

Jonathan Rosenblum Yated 2006

Haaretz 2004 complained he wasn't being allowed to liberalize conversion

RCA condemns psak of Supreme Rabbinical Court invalidating Rabbi Druckman's conversions

[The following was just posted on the RCA web site.]

May 6, 2008 -- Leviticus 19:33 : "You (plural) shall not oppress the convert in your land."
Commentary of the Netziv: "The plural form of the verse teaches us that a third party who sees the oppression of a convert and does not protest is also guilty of oppression."

The Rabbinical Council of America, having taken note of the recent ruling of the Bet Din Elyon (Rabbinic Court of Appeals) of Israel, nullifying certain conversions performed by the State Conversion Authority led by Rabbi Chaim Druckman, has today issued the following statement:

Having reviewed the ruling of the Bet Din Elyon in detail, and being fully mindful of the respect due the rulings of duly constituted rabbinical courts in their respective jurisdictions, the RCA finds it necessary to state for the record that in our view the ruling itself, as well as the language and tone thereof, are entirely beyond the pale of acceptable halachic practice, violate numerous Torah laws regarding converts and their families, create a massive desecration of God's name, insult outstanding rabbinic leaders and halachic scholars in Israel, and are a reprehensible cause of widespread conflict and animosity within the Jewish people in Israel and beyond. The RCA is appalled that such a ruling has been issued by that court.

We have been assured by Israel's Chief Rabbi Rav Shlomo Moshe Amar, who is also the President of the Rabbinical Courts System of Israel, that in releasing this ruling the court in question directly countermanded his instructions and policies. He has confirmed that the ruling has no legal standing at this time. We commend Rav Amar for his positive role in this matter since its very inception in the Ashdod regional court.

We add our rabbinic voice to those of others who have called for a thorough review and repudiation of the actions of a select few of the Bet Din Elyon, who in this ruling as in other previous instances, have sought to undermine the Conversion Authority.

For this reason, and others, it is more important than ever that the Conversion Authority be strengthened in its important work in bringing about halachicly proper conversions to our faith and to the Jewish people.

Given the very public nature of the challenge posed by the ruling in question, we call on the Chief Rabbis of Israel to reaffirm their support of the Conversion Authority and its leadership in clear and unambiguous terms at the earliest possible time. Until that will happen, each passing day will cause reprehensible anguish to halachic converts, irreparable harm to the fabric of the Jewish people, and a considerable debasement of the good name of Torah, halachah, and tradition.

The controversy is about values - not about being part of the modern society per se

Itamar Ross wrote:

For once, I agree with your blog. Though it is not just a clash between charedim and Zionists per se, but also between charedim and modern society in general.

I quote the following from the excellent blog of Rabbi Prof. Jeffrey Woolf of Bar-Ilan University, a talmid of Rav Soloveitchik zt"l (http://myobiterdicta.blogspot.com/):


=======================
I am not sure what there is to agree or disagree with my blog. Since I am mainly trying to present and clarify issues. I don't claim that I know THE answer. If there are legitimate viewpoints that you think I have left out - feel free to present them. The impetus for this blog came because I could not get a simple answer from EJF as to what the halachic basis of their activies is.

In addition it is not a clash between chareidim and modern society per se. As if somehow the chareidim are primitives who would rather remain in their caves. This is a clash of values. Zionism versus the traditional understanding of conversion. It doesn't help the situation to question the integrity and competence of chareidi gedolim.


I found the comments of Prof. Woolf to be rather problematic and intemperate - at least on this issue. I generally find him to be very erudite and balanced on other issues. In fact I deleted his comments which occurred in the Jerusalem Post article because aside from expressing rage and moral indignation they didn't express much insight into what is actually going on. The rest of the JPost article was right on the money.

Instead of heaping scorn on the many rabbis who disagree with Rabbi Druckman and his concept of gerus - it would be more valuable to acknowledge that there are in fact strongly held and incompatible fundamental differences in values between the Religious Zionists and the Chareidi world.

The Balkanization of the religious groups might be the obvious solution to you but it would spell the end of the concept of one Jewish people - henceforth it would be multiple Jewish peoples.

Israel is too small and the world is too interconnected for your solution to be viable.

Supreme Rabbinical Court ruling - full text

Failedmessiah has a link to the High Court's Ruling

A more realistic understanding of the conversion crisis

Bright Eyes responds to RaP:

RaP makes a very interesting case.

The Supreme Rabbinical Court in Israel has concluded in what is certainly a thoroughly analyzed decision (50 pages worth) that Rabbi Druckman's conversions were performed illegally.

RaP says that if we do not accept these illegal conversions, then bad physical things will likely happen to the Jewish people (such as Civil War), and specifically to the people who are responsible for making and supporting these rulings, "the life you save, may be your own."

Put another way, the goal of RaPs argument is to cause Jews to accept illegal conversions (aka goyim) for the sake of their own protection.

This way of thinking is the basis of strong arm organized crime globally. This is the whole logic behind "protection money."

I am in the U.S. and have intentionally stayed ignorant of Israeli politics for my entire adult life because I have observed that the more one knows about it, the more one argues and gets upset.

However, one cannot avoid hearing the well informed argue, and from what I gather Bedatz, the Rabbanut, and the RCA can all be described as opposite corners of a triangle, and that neither Bedatz nor the Rabbanut accept the other as an authority.

So, the notion that the Supreme Religious Court's ruling of last week was somehow orchestrated by people at Bedatz seems absurd.

Also, I don't think that Rabbi Eidensohn posted the Syrian Takana in order to endorse it. Throughout these last few months, Rabbi Eidensohn has posted various aspects to the question of how conversion is viewed and handled and opened the topic to discussion. The Syrian Takana was one of many viewpoints posted.

There were so many viewpoints presented, it is clearly impossible for any one human being to embrace them all.

RaPs general thrust seems to be that of the Religious Humanist, which is that popular sentiment should be the decisor of religious law and practice.

While he makes a nice defense of Rabbi Druckman as a "mainstream" Rabbi, this does not exempt Rabbi Druckman from needing to follow Halacha. If a court comprised of properly competent judges has determined that his Conversion proceedings have not followed the law, Rabbi Druckman's public standing and reputation is not a factor in the difference between legal and illegal.

In the Christian world, senior clergy, such as the Pope, are "infallible" and above reproach. Not so in Judaism.

It alarms me to see RaP judging entire segments of the Jewish people using Christian standards of "good and evil."

He has made it quite clear that anyone who he sees as not being open enough, such as the "Haredim", Syrians, and various Hasidic groups, are all defined as bad because of this characteristic. He also labels them as such based on false information.

Again and again he accuses the Syrians in particular of not accepting converts even though he is repeatedly presented evidence that they do indeed accepts genuine converts.

RaP makes it appear as though Rabbi Eidensohn and Bedatz (whose Rabbonim are really just easily controlled puppets of Rabbi Eidensohn) has done a bad thing by not publicizing the list of Rabbis who received private mail from Bedatz. In other words, because Rabbi Eidensohn would not smear many Rabbis who have done nothing wrong (remember, the letters spoke as warnings against future behavior, and were not judgments against past behavior), he is one of the bad guys!

His argument makes it clear that he considers nobody to be a religious authority. He likes the RCA and says they would never accept Bedatz's standards, yet ignores the fact that the RCA has already accepted those standards by agreeing to the newly published standards of the Rabbanut (who in this case appears to be in agreement with Bedatz).

Regarding the RCA, he says that they "would not accept the standards of the BADATZ and it would drive a wedge with the American communities where the real problems of intermarriages and fuzzy conversions exists." In other words, he feels that the RCA will not accept any ruling that disqualifies intermarriages and "fuzzy" conversions. If I were an RCA Rabbi, I would be highly offended!

People who support Halacha and disqualify fraudulent conversions are now like Nazi's to him! That's quite a viewpoint. Since when is "breach of contract" a racial issue? All Jewish communities accept converts. RaP would have us believe otherwise.

RaP has made it clear that in his view what Judiasm today really needs is a moratorium on practicing and enforcing Jewish law.

Ethereal concepts such as subjective individual ideas of right and wrong for him take precedence over Halacha.

I have spent many years fighting missionaries from other religions. They try to cause ordinary Jews to think like RaP does. I have heard no fewer than ten known missionaries disguised as Orthodox Rabbis say "You can wear the black coat and grow a big beard, but if you don't have love in your heart you aren't practicing Judaism" in order to cause ordinary people to disregard everything that legitimate religious authorities rule on. He's saying those same words in a different way. Instead of discussion/debating the Halachic sources and logic of decisions which make him uncomfortable, he just erases the credibility of everything with broad brushstrokes. Somehow he speaks for all Mizrachim, Hassidim, Ashkenazim, Sephardim etc....are each of us really just cookie-cutter clones of other who share our religious and culinary culture as RaPs would have us believe? I don't think so. I know Ashenazi Rabbis who say that the Syrian Takana is the only way to save the Jewish people, and I know Syrians who say the Takana is the most repulsive thing any Jewish group has ever done.

We're all individuals.

From my point of view, RaP is preaching rather than debating, and his message is dangerous.

"Recipients and Publicity's" fantasy about the awesome power and ambition of the Bedatz

I am making this a post for two reason 1) I am really impressed with Recipients and Publicity's combination of solid knowledge with his leaps of fantasy which sometimes are on target but of late are really off. 2) It is an interesting fantasy which shows an outsiders' view - you just don't realize how inefficient and confused Chareidi Jewish organizations are.

To give a simple example, Rav Sternbuch was totally unaware of the rulings of the Supreme Rabbinic Court on Thursday - until I showed him the printout of the Jerusalem Post's article - Friday afternoon.

Regarding your other concern - knowing to whom the Bedatz sent their condemnation of EJF. I was told that they attempted to send it to all the rabbis that attended the Washington conference in Novemer 2007. Perhaps now that your question is answered you can change your name to something that is easier to type.

I will attempt to answer some of your other assertions - when I recover from the hysteria brought about by your post. BTW if you are ever in Har Nof I would be glad to introduce you the the Bedatz elite commando team that is "plotting" to take over the Jewish world. Gee I thought that Rabbi Tropper was paranoid!
===========================

Recipients and Publicity responds:

Rabbi Eidensohn says: "Your comments seem increasing detached from reality. You are creating a conspiracy theory - which to put it politely is baloney."

Really now? So how do you explain the fact that in your Friday, May 2, 2008 post of "Thousands of conversions questioned by Supreme Rabbnical Court in Israel" YOU also see fit to place in the lead "...See also previous post of Rav Sternbuch's views" with a link to your earlier post of Tuesday, February 12, 2008: "HaRav Sternbuch,shlita - Proposed conversion process threatens our existence!" with a full copy of his original letter with you as his AUTHORIZED spokseman as well as his eyes-and-ears on the Internet did (quite progressive of him in this regard as the BADATZ is against the use of the Internet except for "Parnosa"...another shmues, not for now)

Add that to Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's PUBLIC actions agaisnt Rav Tropper's proselytizing and against EJF's actvitivies (which I personally have great difficulty with, but my personal views do not matter since I am not a posek, just a Blogger like you) -- and which inspired me to take the ID on your Daas Torah of "Recipients and Publicity" because you had reported that the BADATZ had sent out official letters to various Batei Din that had indicated they would align with EJF and asking them to withdraw. It's why I had asked in my first posting, was it possible to obtain the names of all the "Recipients" of that BADATZ's letter and then was it possible to have some "Publicity" for it?! we still haven't gotten the full list from you yet, why? Is it a secret?

So that if you add up what has been happening the last few months in the world of Orthodox and Haredi rabbinical orginizations or even just by monitering your Blog and reading some of the fascinating posts and discussions on it, and having in mind that you are not just anyone but you are an authority in your own right in the writings of Rav Moshe Feinstein ztk"l and you have close personal contact with Rav Shternbuch shlit"a and with the workings of the holy BADATZ in Yerushalayim, and given Rav Shterbuch attitude and letters about Rav Tropper, about Rav Druckman and with Rav Shternbuch's concern about this entire subject of wholesale geirus and the standards to be applied, or shall we say not being applied to his satisfaction, and the goings on back and forth between Rav Amar and the RCA and how Rav Shternbuch is opposed to Rav Amar's, Rav Druchman's and others' present approach to dealing with geirus in the Israeli Chief Rabbinate who are essentially going lekula and being more lenient than he would be as he IS known to be a famous machmir with a much stricter/Brisker outlook. And with the dredging up of this whole obscure matter of how the Syrian community had dealt with the problem of conversions FOR THEMSELVES (but as Sefradim, Rav Shterbuch can use it as a nice foil against the Sefardi Rav Amar and the "Sefardi Rabbonim" he openly berates in his letter you published) so that if you take in the picture as you hav been reporting it and and as we have been discussing it and as you have been FRAMING It, it seems very clear to ME (not as a "Rov or Posek", but as a serious student of Jewish affairs and Jewish life) that what is REALLY happening behind the scenes and not so behind the scenes is that the groundwork is being laid by some groups in Yerushalayim focused around the BADATZ and led by Rav Shternbuch shlit"a is aiming to enact for the entire Charedi world what the Syrian's enacted forthmesslves in 1935.

And I tender to you, as a long-time student and observer of Jewish life and living that the if Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ make such a move they will lose and will fall flat on their faces for a number of reasons, and I will try to cite some:

a) They will be preaching to the converted. Those Charedim, like Satmar and almost all Chasidic groups, except for Chabad and Breslov who are committed to Kiruv, already practice exclusion of outsiders to gerus as far as is humanly possible. So such a Charedi-wide Takana against gerim will just pander to their self-satisfaction and not get to the root of the problem which lies outside their kehilas.

b) The Israeli estbalishment, with the Rabbanut will just use such a move to further isolate and marginalize the Charedim and the people who follow the BADATZ as "extremsist/s" with whom no (halachik) business or solutions can ever be found. Jusr like The BADATZ is opposed to the modern State of Israel and the state in turn looks at them like anachronistic jokes, it would just add to worsen that chronic situation and mindset.

c) The RCA in America and most moderate Haredim in America and the West would not accept the standards of the BADATZ and it would drive a wedge with the American communities where the real problems of intermarriages and fuzzy conversions exists. That is why, as just one example, dealing with EJF efforts and Rabbi Tropper's actvities have taken on so much importance in our times. It would split Charedim from each other, the "moderates" would feel even more split off from the "extremists" and would drive Charedim in America further into literal ghettos of isolation, which many already practice but it would make it tough on many others and they would resent it and their voices will be heard because American Jews, even Haredi ones are a free spirited, independent and outpoken, if respectful, lot.

d) It could never be enforced because the Mizrachi will continue to do what they want in Israel and the RCA in Amercia will do what they want and the BADATZ will just be left screaming on the sideleines and they will come off looking like they have gotten into deeper hot water than they can tolerate let alone swim in.

e) Not just secular Jews but Orthodox Jews will come to RIGHFULLY hate the Haredim even more for enacting Nuremburg-Nazi-type Race laws, when one of the greatest reponses against false accusations that Judaism is racist is the fact that on the contrary Judaism is NOT racist because it accepts converts from any race faith or creed provded the convert is genuine. There is a famous quote from Rav Yaakov Kamenetezky ztk"l that the arguments that Judaism is racist like the Nazis could chas vesholom be "proven" true were it not for the fact that the BIGGEST disporoof against that argument is that Judaism, unlike Nazism, accepts converts, even from nations that are or were its enemies! By enacting a Syrian-like Takana for all of Charedi Judentum, the BADATZ would be digging a big whole for all Charedim and indeed all Jews, to be buried in that would validate the worst claims of the antisemites, playing into the hands of all sonei Yisreol the media would have a field day painting Jews as confirmed racist and proto-Nazis once and for all and that would be a world-class tragedy.

f) It would be ARROGANT!!! It would in effect mean that the BADATZ is taking upon itself the job and role of the Sanhedrin that can only be established with the arrival of the Mashiach. What the Syrian's did with their Takana also goes against this. How dare any Kehiilla, no matter how self-righteous take upon itself what can only be done in Yemos HaMashiach when Klal Yisroel will no longer be mekabel geirim? As I have said, sure, make the acceptance standards for geirus tough, make them very very tough, make them even EXTREMELY tough, but never let the door be bolted tightly shut so that noone can come through to be megayer because that is something that is still possible until such time as ALL of Klal Yisrael rabbonim can agree and when all the robbonim agree maybe that will be a sign that Mashiach is around the corner.

g) It does no good that Rav Shternbuch belittles Rav Druckman and Rav Amar or others like them. Rav Druckman and Rav Amar are not small-time Kiruv rabbis from America who have funny ideas. They are essentially mainstream rabbis for their followers. Not everyone is Charedi and not everyone will be or needs to be.

h) It will be a terrible case of "kefiya datit" (religious coercion) and a huge Chilul H-shem and may result in onforseen consequences. For example, if Charedim are going to pasul all gerim of the rabbanut then in a time of crisis, as in a terror attack or war situation, chas vesholom, someone in a position of power in the Israeli security forces may allow the abandonment of Charedi Jews under fire when lives are at stake. There are clear considerations of pikuach nefesh and dinei nefashos here that cannot be igmored in the Israeli context that are above and beyond questions of valid and invalid conversions. Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's descendant are not going to marry geirim or people who come from geirim because the natural suspicioun, exclusion and paranoia of outsiders is strong strong in the heearland of ASHKENAZI Charedim that they will not really face the problems. It is more marginal people that this debate concerns, and the BADATZ needs to consider if in a quest to keep all gerim out by steam-rollering over Rav Amar, Druckman, the RCA, the Rabbanut etc, they are not in the process also writing some "warrants" that will backfire on them when THEIR day of reckoning should ever come, chas vesholom, so that this is all quite literally a matter of life and death and not just an academic discussion about gerim.

i) There are SIMPLER solutions! At least the Syrians kept the matter to themselves. That was logical. But now, as you drag the Syrian Takana as a kind of "blueprint" of what can be done on a broader scale (and the BADATZ in Yerushalyim is dealing with matters on a broader scale per force) then it becomes an entirely different matter. Sure, if Satmar wants to make a Takana for itself fine, let it do so (if the Aron and Zalman factions can agree that is). If the Lubavitchers want to have their "mivtzoyim" that is their's to do. If Mizrachistim want to have "Hesder" that is their business. If Belzers want to build a huge shull in Yerushalayim and serve their Rebbe faithfully and listen to his dictates, then fine let them do it. If Brisk does not want money from Israel but wants if only from American gevirim that is their business. But if one groups wants to get up and say that THEIR "derech" or "pesak" or "mehalech" or "Takana" should become the new "law of the land" like a new "Shulchan Oruch" it would be a total disaster and could perhaps even forseeably lead to violent conflict chas vesholom (yes, it's called civil war and it could happen chas vesholom.)

j) There is so much Ahavas Yisroel lacking that it is frightening. People are viewing each other as enemies. One group of frum Jews hates and fights the other as in the times of the Bayis Sheni there is so much Sinas Chinom. And one should take a lesson from the Tanaim that when they wanted someone to be metaken the "lamalshinim" segment in the shemoneh esrei when THEY wanted to ADD an extra brocha, the 19th, the Chazal turned to (from Wikisource):"the blessing of V'lamalshinim (Informers) was added much later, during a period in which the Jewish people experienced terrible persecution as a result of these slanderous informers. The task of composing the text for this blessing was delegated to the Tanna Shmuel haKatan, because he was well known as one who exemplified the idiom (Proverbs 24:19) "At the fall of your enemy, do not rejoice, and in his stumbling do not let your heart be gleeful"."

So as I keep saying, when so many Charedim trumpet the values of Kiruv and Chinuch, begging people to give money to Lev LeAchim and Chinuch Atzmai, to so many organizations that claim to be reaching out to and helping the non-frum, this other darker war, with a "no hostages taken" approach, is the opposite of that, and often with the same people in Israel who ask for bundles of money to do "kiruv" also fueling the flames of war against those who need to be mekareavd and, yes, sometimes even megayerd (because there is quite often no other way around it, and each situation is unique, there cannot be mass solution to Yiddishe problems) and let the ones who wish "to go to war", the lurking kanoyim, baalei machlokes and frumaks, take stock of what they are about to unleash and what it may cause them in the long run.

As the saying goes, "the life you save, may be your own."

Chief Rabbi to attempt to revoke ruling which invalidates thousands of conversions

[this is an except which appeared in Haaretz]
[Arutz 7 published an interview with Rav Druckman who says the ruling is invalid]

Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar, acting in his capacity as president of the Supreme Rabbinical Court, will attempt to revoke a ruling from last week, which invalidated thousands of conversions carried out in Israel over the last few years, Haaretz has learnt.

The judges, it emerges, went ahead with the ruling despite the stern objection of Amar, who is said to have been surprised by the decision.

Amar tried to halt the publication of the ruling, according to which conversions to Judaism that have been conducted by Rabbi Haim Druckman - a prominent figure in Religious Zionism - are void, and the converts cannot be recognized as Jewish by the Chief Rabbinate.

The ruling, which was already drafted in February, casts severe doubts on Druckman's conversion arrangements. The decision, made by a panel headed by the staunchly conservative Rabbi Avraham Sherman, stemmed from debating the divorce case of a woman who had been converted by Druckman 15 years ago.

Thousands of conversions questioned by Supreme Rabbnical Court in Israel

Ynet just published the following article Jpost also has an article See also previous post of Rav Sternbuch's views

Thousands of conversions questioned

High Rabbinical Court calls into question all conversions performed by Rabbi Chaim Drukman since 1999
Ynet

“All conversions performed since 1999 by Rabbi Chaim Avior and Rabbi Chaim Drukman, who heads the Israeli Conversion Court, must be disqualified,” the Supreme Rabbinical Court in Jerusalem concluded earlier this week, while discussing an appeal made a by a woman whose 15-year-old conversion conversion was annulled by the Ashdod Rabbinical Court, thus naming her children non-Jewish.

In the 50-page verdict,Judges Sherman, Izirer and Scheinfeld it said: "First, all conversions performed since 1999 by Rabbi Chaim Avior and Rabbi Chaim Drukman must be disqualified; second, conversions can be retroactively annulled for those who are not observant."

click on above link to see full article