Thursday, August 24, 2023

Doctors - obligation to use

 Igros Moshe (Yoreh Deah 4:8): Since the Torah has permitted a person to be cured by a doctor and according to the Rambam(Hilchos De’os 4:23) and the majority of Rishonim (Tur and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 336) it is a Torah obligation - it is absolutely certain that a person must go to an expert doctor even if the doctor is a heretic. This obligation exists even if the doctor is a non-Jew who worships idols because there is no concern today that they might intentional kill (Yoreh Deah 155). One should not be bothered by the issue of how G d sends his cures through heretics. The existence of medicine means that we are commanded not to rely on miracles as long as it is possible to be cured with drugs which were created by G d to cure the sick. The doctor knows about the sickness and he knows which drugs cure the best. However since it is possible for a doctor to err on occasion - it is necessary to pray to G d that the doctor not err and succeed in treating him. Furthermore we find in the gemora that our Sages went to non-Jewish doctors and heretics - in circumstances where there was no concern that the doctor would try to kill them (Avoda Zara 28a). However if the doctor is a missionary, it is prohibited to utilize him even if there is no other doctor. In reality the overwhelming majority of doctors - whether non Jews or sinful Jews - do their work and don’t get involved in missionary activity. Thus one need not be concerned with this unless it is known that the doctor is in fact a missionary. (See Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah 2:57 concerning psychologists and psychiatrists who are heretics that it is prohibited to utilize them).

The Temple and its mitvos mirrored idolatry

 Moreh Nevuchim (3:45) THE precepts of the tenth class are those enumerated in the laws on the Temple (Hilkot bet ha-beḥirah), the laws on the vessels of the temple and on the ministers in the temple [Hilkot kele ha-miḳdash veha-‘obedim bo]. The use of these precepts we have stated in general terms. It is known that idolaters selected the highest possible places on high mountains where to build their temples and to place their images. Therefore Abraham, our father, chose Mount Moriah, being the highest mount in that country, and proclaimed there the Unity of God. He selected the west of the mount as the place toward which he turned during his prayers, because [he thought that] the most holy place was in the West; this is the meaning of the saving of our Sages, "The Shekinah" (the Glory of God) is in the West" (B. T. Baba B 25a); and it is distinctly stated in the Talmud Yoma that our father Abraham chose the west side, the place where the Most Holy was built. I believe that he did so because it was then a general rite to worship the sun as a deity. Undoubtedly all people turned then to the East [worshipping the Sun]. Abraham turned therefore on Mount Moriah to the West, that is, the site of the Sanctuary, and turned his back toward the sun; and the Israelites, when they abandoned their God and returned to the early bad principles, stood "with their backs toward the Temple of the Lord and their faces toward the East, and they worshipped the sun toward the East" (Ezek. 8:16). Note this strange fact. I do not doubt that the spot which Abraham chose in his prophetical spirit, was known to Moses our Teacher, and to others: for Abraham commanded his children that on this place a house of worship should be built. Thus the Targum says distinctly, "And Abraham worshipped and prayed there in that place, and said before God, 'Here shall coming generations worship the Lord'" (Gen. 22:14). For three practical reasons the name of the place is not distinctly stated in the Law, but indicated in the phrase "To the place which the Lord will choose" (Deut. 12:11, etc.). First, if the nations had learnt that this place was to be the centre of the highest religious truths, they would occupy it, or fight about it most perseveringly. Secondly, those who were then in possession of it might destroy and ruin the place with all their might. Thirdly, and chiefly, every one of the twelve tribes would desire to have this place in its borders and under its control; this would lead to divisions and discord, such as were caused by the desire for the priesthood. Therefore it was commanded that the Temple should not be built before the election of a king who would order its erection, and thus remove the cause of discord. We have explained this in the Section on Judges (ch. xli.).

Is Tuma real?Rambam vs Ramban

Nida(31b): It was taught: R’ Meir asked: Why did the Torah decree that the impurity of menstruation should be for seven days? That is because if the husband is in constant contact with her he might develop a disgust for her. Therefore the Torah said that she should be impure for seven days in order that she should be as beloved to her husband as when they were first married.

Bereishis Rabbah[(17:8): Why was the mitzva of nidah given to the woman? That is because she shed the blood of Adam by bringing about death; therefore she was given the mitzva of nidah.

Bamidbar Rabbah (19:8) A gentile asked Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai, "These rituals you do, they seem like witchcraft! You bring a heifer, burn it, crush it up, and take its ashes. [If] one of you is impure by the dead [the highest type impurity], 2 or 3 drops are sprinkled on him, and you declare him pure?!" He said to him, "Has a restless spirit ever entered you?" He said to him, "No!" "Have you ever seen a man where a restless spirit entered him?" He said to him, "Yes!" [Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai] said to him, "And what did you do for him?" He sad to him, "We brought roots and made them smoke beneath him, and pour water and it flees." He said to him, "Your ears should hear what leaves from your mouth! The same thing is true for this spirit, the spirit of impurity, as it is written, (Zachariah 13:2) "Even the prophets and the spirit of impurity will I remove from the land." They sprinkle upon him purifying waters, and it [the spirit of impurity] flees." After he left, our rabbi's students said, "You pushed him off with a reed. What will you say to us?" He said to them, "By your lives, a dead person doesn't make things impure, and the water doesn't make things pure. Rather, God said, 'I have engraved a rule, I have decreed a decree (chukah chakakti, gezeira gazarti), and you have no permission to transgress what I decreed, as it says "This is a chok (rule) of the Torah."

Rambam(Commentary to Sanhedrin 7:4): Our Sages have issued many warnings against sexual fantasy and have cautioned against things that cause it. They have gone into great detail in this matter in order to frighten and scare all those who deliberately fantasize and cause emission of semen. While these matters are clearly prohibited, they are not punished by lashes or similar punishments. Similarly lesbian behavior is disgusting and an abomination. However there is no punishment either from the Torah or Rabbinic…Even though there is no specific punishment it is included in the category of the abominations of Egypt…

Maharetz Chajes (Darchei Hora'ah #6): I disagree with the Chasam Sofer’s ruling that one should say that a Rabbinic prohibition is a Torah prohibition i.e., to upgrade the nature of prohibitions. Even though we see our Sages viewed it permitted to frighten with their descriptions of the seriousness of prohibitions as we see in the Rambam (Sanhedrin 7:4)…They said that certain things are equivalent to murder and worshipping idols. Many other things they have described as deserving of the death penalty. All this is only to frighten and scare. However to say that a Rabbinic prohibition is really a Torah prohibition - the Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 2:9) clearly states that this itself violates the Torah prohibition of adding to the Torah. Such a practice also violates the Torah prohibition of lying - even if it is done for a good reason. Our Sages were always very concerned to identify and keep separate that which is from the Torah and which are Rabbinical legislation - even if there were no practical halacha involved.

Mishna Torah (Mikvos 11:12) It is obviously clear that the laws concerning defilements and purities are biblical decrees, and not things which the human mind can determine; they are classified as divine statutes. So too, immersion as a means of ridding oneself from defilement is included among the divine statutes. Defilement is not mud or filth to be removed with water, but is a matter of biblical decree; it depends on the heart's intent. Accordingly, the sages have declared: If a man immersed himself, but without a definite purpose in view, it is as though he had not immersed himself at all. Nevertheless, there is some ethical allusion to this: just as one who sets his mind on becoming clean becomes clean as soon as he has immersed himself, even though nothing new is produced in his physical being, so one who sets his mind on purifying himself from all the spiritual defilements, namely wrongful thoughts and evil traits, becomes clean as soon as he made up his mind to abstain from those notions, and brought his soul into the waters of reason. Indeed, Scripture declares: "I will pour clean water over you, and you shall be clean; from all your impurities and idolatries I will cleanse you" (Ezekiel 36:25).

Moreh Nevuchim (3:47) THE precepts of the twelfth class are those which we have enumerated in the section on "Purity" (Sefer tohorah). Although we have mentioned their use in general, we will here offer an additional explanation, and [first] fully discuss the object of the whole class, and then show the reason of each single commandment, as far as we have been able to discover it. I maintain that the Law which was revealed to Moses, our Teacher, and which is called by his name, aims at facilitating the service and lessening the burden, and if a person complains that certain precepts cause him pain and great trouble, he cannot have thought of the habits and doctrines that were general in those days. Let him consider the difference between a man burning his own son in serving his god, and our burning a pigeon to the service of our God. Scripture relates, for even their sons and their daughters they burn in the fire to their gods (Deut. 12:31). This was the way in which the heathen worshipped their gods, and instead of such a sacrifice we have the burning of a pigeon or a handful of flour in our worship. In accordance with this fact, the Israelites, when disobedient, were rebuked by God as follows: "O My people, what have I done unto thee? and wherein have I wearied thee? Testify against me" (Mic. 6:3). Again, "Have I been a wilderness unto Israel? a land of darkness? Wherefore say my people, We are miserable; we will come no more unto thee" (Jer. 2:31); that is to say, Through which of the commandments has the Law become burdensome to the Israelites, that they renounce it? In the same manner God asks the people, "What iniquity have your fathers found in me, that they are gone far from me?" etc. (ibid. 2:5). All these passages express one and the same idea.
Ramban(Vayikra 18:19): AND UNTO A WOMAN DURING HER SEPARATION FOR HER UNCLEANNESS, THOU SHALT NOT APPROACH TO UNCOVER HER NAKEDNESS. ....  The doctors have also told us in connection with it, a true experience, which is one of the wondrous works of Him Who is perfect in knowledge301Job 37:16. in creation, that if a menstruant woman at the beginning of her issue were to concentrate her gaze for some time upon a polished iron mirror, there would appear in the mirror red spots resembling drops of blood, for the bad part therein [i.e., in the issue] that is by its nature harmful, causes a certain odium, and the unhealthy condition of the air attaches to the mirror, just as a viper kills with its gaze. And surely it is harmful to have intercourse with her then, since physically and mentally she is attached to the man’s body and mind. Therefore Scripture prohibited it by saying, and her impurity will be upon him,302Above, 15:24. meaning that her condition is a contagious one. It is with reference to this that it states, the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity,303Ezekiel 36:17. always mentioning in connection with her the term “impurity,” which is like that used in speaking of a creeping thing and of a leper, in which cases their impurity is within their bodies. It is possible that this is the sense of the expression, he hath bared her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood,304Further, 20:18. for that blemished fountain should be covered, and not bared in order to draw its bad and extremely harmful waters. Thus intercourse has been prohibited to the holy seed305Isaiah 6:13. all the days of her impurity, until she immerses herself in water [i.e., in a ritual pool],306For no amount of washing the body can take the place of ritual immersion, where such is prescribed. for then she will be purified also in her thoughts,307This is obviously a reference to what Rambam wrote in his Mishneh Torah at the end of Hilchoth Mikvaoth, on the significance of immersion, that it is not merely a matter of removing mud or dirt which may be removed by water, but “it is a Scriptural decree, the validity of the act depending upon the disposition of the heart. It is for this reason that the Sages have said. ‘If he immersed himself without intention, it is as though he had not immersed himself at all’ (Chagigah 18 b) … Thus he whose heart intends to purify himself, becomes purified as soon as the [actual] immersion is accomplished.” It is clear, then, that since both body and soul must participate in the act of immersion, the effect and potency of the purification applies to both body and soul as Ramban here states, “for then she will be purified also in her thoughts, and become completely clean.” See “The Commandments,” Vol. I, pp. 117-119. and become completely clean [in body and mind].


Mitzvos deal with people as they are to erase idolatry

 Moreh Nevuchim (3:32) Many precepts in our Law are the result of a similar course adopted by the same Supreme Being. It is, namely, impossible to go suddenly from one extreme to the other: it is therefore according to the nature of man impossible for him suddenly to discontinue everything to which he has been accustomed. Now God sent Moses to make [the Israelites] a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Exod. 19:6) by means of the knowledge of God. Comp. "Unto thee it was showed that thou mightest know that the Lord is God (Deut. 4:35); "Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord is God" (ibid. 5:39). The Israelites were commanded to devote themselves to His service; comp. "and to serve him with all your heart" (ibid. 11:13); "and you shall serve the Lord your God" (Exod. 23:25); "and ye shall serve him" (Deut. 13:5). But the custom which was in those days general among all men, and the general mode of worship in which the Israelites were brought up, consisted in sacrificing animals in those temples which contained certain images, to bow down to those images, and to burn incense before them; religious and ascetic persons were in those days the persons that were devoted to the service in the temples erected to the stars, as has been explained by us. It was in accordance with the wisdom and plan of God, as displayed in the whole Creation, that He did not command us to give up and to discontinue all these manners of service; for to obey such a commandment it would have been contrary to the nature of man, who generally cleaves to that to which he is used; it would in those days have made the same impression as a prophet would make at present if he called us to the service of God and told us in His name, that we should not pray to Him, not fast, not seek His help in time of trouble; that we should serve Him in thought, and not by any action. For this reason God allowed these kinds of service to continue; He transferred to His service that which had formerly served as a worship of created beings, and of things imaginary and unreal, and commanded us to serve Him in the same manner; viz., to build unto Him a temple; comp. "And they shall make unto me a sanctuary" (Exod. 25:8); to have the altar erected to His name; comp. "An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me" (ibid. 20:21); to offer the sacrifices to Him; comp. "If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord" (Lev. 1:2), to bow down to Him and to burn incense before Him. He has forbidden to do any of these things to any other being; comp. "He who sacrificeth unto any God, save the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed" (Exod. 22:19); "For thou shalt bow down to no other God" (ibid. 34:14). He selected priests for the service in the temple; comp. "And they shall minister unto me in the priest's office" (ibid. 28:41). He made it obligatory that certain gifts, called the gifts of the Levites and the priests, should be assigned to them for their maintenance while they are engaged in the service of the temple and its sacrifices. By this Divine plan it was effected that the traces of idolatry were blotted out, and the truly great principle of our faith, the Existence and Unity of God, was firmly established; this result was thus obtained without deterring or confusing the minds of the people by the abolition of the service to which they were accustomed and which alone was familiar to them. I know that you will at first thought reject this idea and find it strange; you will put the following question to me in your heart: How can we suppose that Divine commandments, prohibitions, and important acts, which are fully explained, and for which certain seasons are fixed, should not have been commanded for their own sake, but only for the sake of some other thing: as if they were only the means which He employed for His primary object? What prevented Him from making His primary object a direct commandment to us, and to give us the capacity of obeying it? Those precepts which in your opinion are only the means and not the object would then have been unnecessary. Hear my answer, which win cure your heart of this disease and will show you the truth of that which I have pointed out to you. There occurs in the Law a passage which contains exactly the same idea; it is the following: "God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt; but God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red Sea," etc. (Exod. 13:17). Here God led the people about, away from the direct road which He originally intended, because He feared they might meet on that way with hardships too great for their ordinary strength; He took them by another road in order to obtain thereby His original object. In the same manner God refrained from prescribing what the people by their natural disposition would be incapable of obeying, and gave the above-mentioned commandments as a means of securing His chief object, viz., to spread a knowledge of Him [among the people], and to cause them to reject idolatry. It is contrary to man's nature that he should suddenly abandon all the different kinds of Divine service and the different customs in which he has been brought up, and which have been so general, that they were considered as a matter of course; it would be just as if a person trained to work as a slave with mortar and bricks, or similar things, should interrupt his work, clean his hands, and at once fight with real giants. It was the result of God's wisdom that the Israelites were led about in the wilderness till they acquired courage. For it is a well-known fact that travelling in the wilderness, and privation of bodily enjoyments, such as bathing, produce courage, whilst the reverse is the source of faint-heartedness: besides, another generation rose during the wanderings that had not been accustomed to degradation and slavery. All the travelling in the wilderness was regulated by Divine commands through Moses; comp. "At the commandment of the Lord they rested, and at the commandment of the Lord they journeyed; they kept the charge of the Lord and the commandment of the Lord by the hand of Moses" (Num. 9:23). In the same way the portion of the Law under discussion is the result of divine wisdom, according to which people are allowed to continue the kind of worship to which they have been accustomed, in order that they might acquire the true faith, which is the chief object [of God's commandments]. You ask, What could have prevented God from commanding us directly, that which is the chief object, and from giving us the capacity of obeying it? This would lead to a second question, What prevented God from leading the Israelites through the way of the land of the Philistines, and endowing them with strength for fighting? The leading about by a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night would then not have been necessary. A third question would then be asked in reference to the good promised as reward for the keeping of the commandments, and the evil foretold as a punishment for sins. It is the following question: As it is the chief object and purpose of God that we should believe in the Law, and act according to that which is written therein, why has He not given us the capacity of continually believing in it, and following its guidance, instead of holding out to us reward for obedience, and punishment for disobedience, or of actually giving all the predicted reward and punishment? For [the promises and the threats] are but the means of leading to this chief object. What prevented Him from giving us, as part of our nature, the will to do that which He desires us to do, and to abandon the kind of worship which He rejects? There is one general answer to these three questions, and to all questions of the same character: it is this: Although in every one of the signs [related in Scripture] the natural property of some individual being is changed, the nature of man is never changed by God by way of miracle. It is in accordance with this important principle that God said, "O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me," etc. (Deut. 5:26). It is also for this reason that He distinctly stated the commandments and the prohibitions, the reward and the punishment. This principle as regards miracles has been frequently explained by us in our works: I do not say this because I believe that it is difficult for God to change the nature of every individual person; on the contrary, it is possible, and it is in His power, according to the principles taught in Scripture; but it has never been His will to do it, and it never will be. If it were part of His will to change [at His desire] the nature of any person, the mission of prophets and the giving of the Law would have been altogether superfluous.

I now return to my theme. As the sacrificial service is not the primary object [of the commandments about sacrifice], whilst supplications, prayers, and similar kinds of worship are nearer to the primary object, and indispensable for obtaining it, a great difference was made in the Law between these two kinds of service. The one kind, which consists in offering sacrifices, although the sacrifices are offered to the name of God, has not been made obligatory for us to the same extent as it had been before. We were not commanded to sacrifice in every place, and in every time, or to build a temple in every place, or to permit any one who desires to become priest and to sacrifice. On the contrary, all this is prohibited unto us. Only one temple has been appointed, "in the place which the Lord shall choose" (Deut. 12:26); in no other place is it allowed to sacrifice: comp. "Take heed to thyself, that thou offer not thy burnt-offerings in every place that thou seest" (ibid. 5:13); and only the members of a particular family were allowed to officiate as priests. All these restrictions served to limit this kind of worship, and keep it within those bounds within which God did not think it necessary to abolish sacrificial service altogether. But prayer and supplication can be offered everywhere and by every person. The same is the case with the commandment of ẓiẓit (Num. 15:38); mezuzah (Deut. 6:9; 11:20); tefillin (Exod. 13:9, 16); and similar kinds of divine service.

Because of this principle which I explained to you, the Prophets in their books are frequently found to rebuke their fellow-men for being over-zealous and exerting themselves too much in bringing sacrifices: the prophets thus distinctly declared that the object of the sacrifices is not very essential, and that God does not require them. Samuel therefore said, "Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord" (1 Sam. 15:22)? Isaiah exclaimed, "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord" (Isa. 1:11); Jeremiah declared: "For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt-offering or sacrifices. But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my, voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people" (Jer. 7:22, 23). This passage has been found difficult in the opinion of all those whose words I read or heard; they ask, How can Jeremiah say that God did not command us about burnt-offering and sacrifice, seeing so many precepts refer to sacrifice? The sense of the passage agrees with what I explained to you. Jeremiah says [in the name of God] the primary object of the precepts is this, Know me, and serve no other being; "I will be your God, and ye shall be my people" (Lev. 26:12). But the commandment that sacrifices shall be brought and that the temple shall be visited has for its object the success of that principle among you; and for its sake I have transferred these modes of worship to my name; idolatry shall thereby be utterly destroyed, and Jewish faith firmly established. You, however, have ignored this object, and taken hold of that which is only the means of obtaining it; you have doubted my existence, "ye have denied the Lord, and said he is not" (Jer. 5:12); ye served idols; "burnt incense unto Baal, and walked after other gods whom ye know not. And come and stand before me in this house" (ibid. 7:9-10); i.e., you do not go beyond attending the temple of the Lord, and offering sacrifices: but this is not the chief object.--I have another way of explaining this passage with exactly the same result. For it is distinctly stated in Scripture, and handed down by tradition, that the first commandments communicated to us did not include any law at an about burnt-offering and sacrifice. You must not see any difficulty in the Passover which was commanded in Egypt; there was a particular and evident reason for that, as will be explained by me (chap. xlvi.). Besides it was revealed in the land of Egypt; whilst the laws to which Jeremiah alludes in the above passage are those which were revealed after the departure from Egypt. For this reason it is distinctly added, "in the day that I brought them out from the land of Egypt." The first commandment after the departure from Egypt was given at Marah, in the following words, "If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in His sight, and wilt give ear to His commandments" (Exod. 15:26)." There he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them" (ibid. ver. 25). According to the true traditional explanation, Sabbath and civil laws were revealed at Marah: "statute" alludes to Sabbath, and "ordinance" to civil laws, which are the means of removing injustice. The chief object of the Law, as has been shown by us, is the teaching of truths; to which the truth of the creatio ex nihilo belongs. It is known that the object of the law of Sabbath is to confirm and to establish this principle, as we have shown in this treatise (Part. II. chap. xxxi.). In addition to the teaching of truths the Law aims at the removal of injustice from mankind. We have thus proved that the first laws do not refer to burnt-offering and sacrifice, which are of secondary importance. The same idea which is contained in the above passage from Jeremiah is also expressed in the Psalms, where the people are rebuked that they ignore the chief object, and make no distinction between chief and subsidiary lessons. The Psalmist says: "Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God. I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt-offerings, they have been continually before me. I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he-goats out of thy folds" (Ps. 50:29).--Wherever this subject is mentioned, this is its meaning. Consider it well, and reflect on it.

"Frum" halachic concerns about abuse - causes mental constipation

I just received a letter regarding 
Pesachim (113b): Three the Holy One, blessed be He, hates: he who speaks one thing with his mouth and another thing in his heart; and he who possesses evidence concerning is neighbour and does not testify for him; and he who sees something indecent in his neighbour and testifies against him alone. As it once happened that Tobias sinned and Zigud alone came and testified against him before R. Papa, [whereupon] he had Zigud punished. ‘Tobias sinned and Zigud is punished!’ exclaimed he, ‘Even so,’ said he to him, ‘for it is written, one witness shall not rise up against a man, whereas you have testified against him alone: you merely bring him into ill repute.’

Question: It states clearly in Pesachim (113b) that if a single witness testifies about the sins of another that he receives malkus. Thus publicizing allegations that are not actionable by beis din i.e., 2 kosher witnesses - is a major sin. So how is it possible that you are advising people to notify schools or communities regarding a suspected molester or calling the police when you lack 2 kosher witnesses? Even if you want to rely on the Chofetz Chaim that when there is to'eles it is permitted to speak lashon harah, but how does that justify indiscriminate publicity - especially if brought about through the arrest of an alleged molester? Why do you think that people in Israel need to know about an alleged pedophile in  Lakewood or Monsey and vice versa? Answer:You are taking a very "frum" perspective i.e., that in abuse cases we are dealing with witnesses testifying before a beis din that will determine guilt or innocence. Since 2 witnesses are required nothing is accomplished by a single witness except to ruin the accused and thus it is lashon harah. This is the perspective of Rav Menashe Klein and apparently the former Lakewood beis din for child abuse.

However in fact according to most poskim we are dealing with the issue of preventing harm - not poskening guilt or innocence. We are dealing with rodef which doesn't require beis din or a psak. If you know someone is a molester he is a rodef and thus you can call the police to stop him harming others. Even if it is only a sofek rodef you can call the police.

If there are only children who are witnesses then see C.M. 35. and the Sho'el U"meishiv.  If there are only rumors or circumstantial evidence - you can still act to protect yourself or others. See Rav Yehuda Silman's article in Yeschurun vol 15. Following Nida 91 you don't believe that the rumors are necessarily true but you still need to take protective action. See Rav Sternbuch's teshuva dealing with a principal who refused to listen to allegations and rumors (because it is lashon harah). Our society has gotten so obsessed with the horror of lashon harah it ignores the other half of the posuk - "Don't stand idly by the blood of your brother." As I have noted from Rav Elchonon Wasserman and others - there is no prohibition of lashon harah in a case where it is beneficial. It really is as simple as that.  [See Piskei Teshuva O.C. 156] Furthermore taking the view of the Maharal regarding lashon harah - if you are willing to say directly to the person you suspect  that you have heard rumors that he is a molester - then you can say the same to others and it is not lashon harah. The Maharal holds that the issur of lashon harah is to say nasty things behind someone's back.

In addition you are ignoring the issue of mandated reporting which we learn from BM 83 regarding Rav Eliezar ben Rav Shimon. In addition you are ignoring the discussion of public welfare found in Rambam(Chovel U'mazik 8:11) and the Chasam Sofer on Gittin 7a.

An additional point is mentioned in Shulchan Aruch (C.M. 38:1): If the single witnesses can cause an oath to be taken or to stop sin - then it is permitted.

Regarding your second point, it is clear to anyone who is involved in child abuse - that the problem is not a  local problem. Molester readily move between neighborhoods - in fact they are often sent away to another community without providing any warning to the new community.

In sum, you are getting tangled into a halachic knot that causes mental constipation. The cure for this is using seichal - which is discussed in C.M. 2. - especially the Rashba cited by the Aruch HaShulchan. Instead of frum excuses that we don't have two witnesses etc etc - you should be asking  - what do we have to do to protect the children.  The problem is the frum questions blinds you to the reality that children are not required to be sacrificed on the altar of frumkeit. By taking the mistaken view that we can't speak lashon harah, we can't do anything without proper witnesses, we can't call the police, we can't act on circumstantial evidence, we can't decide anything of significance without rabbinic permission, we can't use the secular courts, we can't shame the community or the family of the pedophile, and we surely can't cause him to be punished with jail (which is not a Torah punishment) - you cause children to be abused and experience a living death. You cause children to give up religion. You cause a disgusting chilul hashem when it becomes known that you have betrayed the weak and dependent children - in the name of halacha.

Dr. Joy Silberg - what is her role in the Sanhedria Murchevet Satanic abuse hysteria?

updated below with review of 22 Faces - about Satanic abuse which was endorsed by Dr. Silberg

After exchanging a number of emails with Dr. Silberg, I think it is important to try and clarify her role in this hysteria.

She has written to me that she has seen zero evidence that there is any ideological abuse. That means no Christian or Satanic ring.

However, she has up until now refused to issue a public statement saying that point. She did respond to my request for a public statement with a statement for publication. However it did not include this critical observation of hers (despite my request to say so) but it also omitted saying that one should go to the police if you suspect your child has been abused. This omission is very problematic. Aside from the fact that only the police have the resources for a proper investigation and only the police have the legal ability to arrest and give a suspect over to be tried - it implies that she does not trust the police? Why?

 Is this related to the bizarre rumor by those claiming that there is Satanic abuse - that the police are complicit and are actively concealing the evidence for abuse? In fact there is no evidence for a cover up - but this rumor seems to have persuaded parents not to go the police - but instead to go to certain therapists who believe and promote the theory that there is a Satanic abuse ring.

It is important to note that she has trained and endorsed the two therapists who have been major figures promoting the claims that there is a Satanic ring operating in Sanhedria Murchevet and also benefiting from having the alleged victims referred to them.. Neither of them is a psychologist and one of them is a speech therapist! Why?

In short, she has not disavowed the Satanic ring theory. She trained and apparently still endorses the main therapists who have been getting referrals based on the Satanic abuse theory. She is not advising parents to go to the police  or to involve them in the investigation of these abuse cases - according to her public statement.  

Her public statement was an embarrassing collection of statements which basically called for collection of data and withholding judgment until the data has been analyzed. But who is collecting this data? And who is analyzing it? We are talking about allegations of satanic abuse for over two years. Rabbi Berkowitz has already publicly stated it is Satanic abuse. Where did he get his conclusion from? It apparently was not from his own investigation - since he has no training in either police work or abuse. Which professionals did he rely on and trust that told him it was a Satanic cult? Was it from the two that Dr. Silberg trained and still endorses?

The fact that Dr. Silberg after several years is still calling for withholding judgment obviously means that she is in fact open to the fact that there could be a Satanic cult! This despite that she has stated she has seen no evidence of it after two years and the police after extensive investigation say they have found no evidence?!

What is she waiting for? How many years is this hysteria going to continue until conclusions are drawn to either support or reject the existence of a Satanic abuse ring? Why is she claiming scientific neutrality on the one hand when she is apparently deeply involved in the  support of those who are the main proponents and beneficiaries of the claims that there is a Satanic abuse ring?

I am calling on her to categorically state three things without any qualifiers

  • 1) She does not support the claims of Satanic abuse and has not seen any evidence for it.
  • 2) She supports the Jerusalem police in their investigation of the matter and tells people to report all cases and suspicions to them
  • 3) She is not endorsing and referring people to the two therapists she trained and are the major proponents of the Satanic abuse ring
===================================
Update: It is helpful to be aware of a book - 22 Faces - which Dr. Silberg has endorsed. This book has received searing reviews - SEE   Where the witch hunters are and
================
 When therapists are lunatics
The book also contains an endorsement from one Joyanna Silberg, Ph.D., Past President of the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation (ISSTD) which, if anything, says something negative about the ISSTD more than it tells us anything substantive about Byington’s book. Silberg claims that she and her peers “are all too familiar with the kinds of crimes and disorders described in 22 Faces.” Indeed, this year the ISSTD is hosting a conference which will feature a lecture on the topic of Ritual Abuse given by one Ellen Lacter, whose website offers helpful (if hardly coherent) tips such as “Pray a perimeter of protection against everything of witchcraft”, and discredited British therapist Valerie Sinason.
====================
Twenty-Two Faces by Judy Byington falls within an outdated genre of prurient Satanic Panic supernatural-erotica-sold-as-a-true-story pulp novels which enjoyed a certain popularity throughout the 80s and 90s. It tells the story of one Jenny Hill, a former prostitute and drug abuser who, upon submitting herself to psychiatric attention, learned that she had Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD) (now known as Dissociative Identity Disorder [DID]). Surely, this diagnosis must have come as quite a relief, as it promised that Hill herself need not bear any of the responsibility for her own actions, which the book describes as, at times, being outright psychopathic. The book makes quite clear that every foul thing Hill ever did — from slashing her sister with a razor blade out of mere curiosity of the consequences, to allowing herself to be pimped by a husband she met whilst working with sex offenders (he was one) — was actually the mischievous doings of personalities that resided within her, and without her own conscious awareness. Unfortunately, this ultimate absolution came at a predictable cost: in accepting the MPD/DID diagnosis, Hill would also have to necessarily accept that she was harboring “repressed memories” of traumas which she would need to recall in the course of reintegrating her fractured mind. Fortunately for Hill, however, nobody required of her that the heartbreaking story of traumatic abuse that she would “recall” need make any sense, and the fact that it doesn’t seems to have completely escaped her biographer, Judy Byington. 

Invoking the specter of sinister, underground secret societies dedicated anti-human Evil (as well a the comparatively petty-minded abuse of Ms. Hill) Twenty-Two Faces pays homage to debunked Satanic Panic literature of years past, even placing the book Satan’s Underground by Lauren Stratford in the bibliography, despite the fact that this book was so thoroughly discredited as to be withdrawn from publication, with the author changing her name and running off, abandoning her claim to Satanic cult abuse to instead pose as a childhood victim of the Holocaust. [...]
And here we have a real problem: therapists hiding their most unhinged paranoid fantasies under a veneer of scientific credibility derived from case studies and surveys applied to those whom they’ve previously infected with their conspiracist ideas. Never mind that Past Life Regression and Alien Abduction narratives, too, are derived from “recovered memories”; to question the bizarre claims put forward by Byington or the perpetually panicked ISSTD faithful is to invite criticisms that you, in fact, have an “agenda”. To doubt the truth of recovered memory narratives is to support child abuse.
This tactic of argumentation is truly offensive, as it hijacks children’s rights and attempts to create human shields of real victims as protection against criticisms directed at patently absurd claims. In the proper context, Twenty-Two Faces is a helpful book, as it illustrates this problem clearly for those who may doubt the magnitude to which conspiracists have over-run the study of Dissociative Disorders. Byington does not simply misappropriate the condition of multiple personalities as a plot device for her ridiculous book, she shows the condition for what it largely (if not entirely) is: a collaborative therapeutically-created delusion. In trying to expose a Satanic conspiracy, Byington unwittingly exposes a foul movement that exploits vulnerable mental health consumers. Let’s hope the licensing boards and professional associations eventually move to erase such embarrassments from practice.
[to be continued]

Sanhedria Murchevet: The problematic paranoid thinking needed to accept the allegations of Satanic Abuse Rings

I am making a post out of the comment below - because it is so bizarre. I have been discussing in previous posts the allegations of a Satanic Abuse Ring in Sanhedria Murchevet and the appropriateness of Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz leadership in regards to this situation. It has been widely accepted by mental health and law enforcement officials - after the hysteria about Satanic Abuse Rings in America ended up with all the convictions being thrown out - that there is no such thing even though there are definitely pedophiles and perverted individuals.
 "In the Know from Nachalot" - someone who is currently in Lakewood has been strongly defending Rav Berkowitz's view and strongly criticizing me personally. As I have noted before, these Satanic allegations are fantastic and unlikely to be true. Even Rav Berkowitz has acknowledged he didn't believe them when they were made in Nachlaot. They involve accepting the need for a paranoid mindset - that there is a determined conspiracy to destroy the children, their Jewishness, respect for parents and teachers, sexual and psychological abuse occurs as does torture, involves transporting children distances etc etc. Evidence is almost entirely the testimony of young children which Rav Berkowitz acknowledges is highly unreliable. After two years there are no convictions or apparently even suspects.

What I want to point out that it is not simply a question of believing Rav Berkowitz - "In the Know" has developed a bizarre way of thinking - possibly as the result of believing the unbelievable allegations regarding Satanic abuse.

The message I am getting from him is that if I disagree with Rav Berkowitz when he believes he is fighting Satan - It means I am a protector of Satan's supporters possibly even Satanic myself. Publicly disagreeing with Rav Berkowitz is punished by loss of Olam HaBah unless I publicly apologize.

I haven't gotten this type of response in dealing with the issue of Geirus and Trpper, Get Me'usa and ORA, Manufactured claims in the Weiss divorce case, Child abuse and Lakewood, etc etc. I have publicly disagreed with the Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva, with the Noviminsker Rebbe, with Rav Reuven Feinstein , Rav Ahron Schachter, Rav Hershel Schecter, Rav Menashe Klein and many others - without anyone making such claims. Why not? It is because none of the other issues involving drastic changes in thinking. Paranoid thinking, surrealistic logic and a lynch mob mentality however is inherently associated with belief in Satanic Child Abuse. While bizarre thinking is not proof that Satanic Child Abuse doesn't exist - it is as a minimum should at least alert the public that something unhealthy is going on.
======================================
First of all you are relying on chazokos with no basis in halacha as I mentioned before, for 2 reasons to disagree with Rabbi B.

Second of all you have not researched the children of this case as Rabbi B. has.

Third of all you claim he has done it solo, without professionals, which is not true, an you know it.
As for my video, Prince Andrew is one the people mentioned there, you are so evasive, and it is obvious why. That was just to show you it does exist, The internet is not where I will get my information from, nor could it be used in court , Din Torah or Din shomayim.

Reb Moshe in Igres Moshe was not matir blogging against a choshuve Talmid Chochom, when you take things out of context, to write your own book.

I am not publishing information into the WWW, which could damage the true askonim trying bimsirus nefesh to help a very unfortunate chelek of klal Yisroel.

The fact you are so adamant to find out where I am who I am & what I know, shows me a little insight into who you may very well be.

It seems from all your posts on this subject that you have been bought out by the sitra achara (the other side & the soton), not to say that you are a satanic, but you will go to great lengths to protect them as you do, at the expense of the abused kids, of who'm the only way you may know who they may be is from the Satanic abusers themselves.

It is no surprise that the chief of police who dropped this investigation in Yerushalayim was later forced to resign for very horrible aveiros. The Satanic cult were able to blackmail him, with info they had on him, so as not to prosecute them.

For all practical purposes the dark Satanic is just a nick-name, it isn't there actual trade name, but that they want to be machtie Yiddishe children & do it through multiple forms of abuse has been corroborated.

The fact that you claim to know all the children & parents are lying tells me something about you.

You are trying to disprove Rabbi B. in blog space rather than in person, where you may hear the facts if you have a good reason to know them, and have the nerve to say that I think he is infallible.

You don't know the facts of this story he does, unless the Satanic abusers have informed you of them.

Imagine I, together with another person would witness a man biting a dog. We would then come to beis Din and testify man bit dog, you would be the dayan, & would Google man doesn't bite dog so it never happened. Even if you would pasken that way, we would still know it happened because we saw it, no matter how much you prove it didn't happen we would know it did.

Without speaking to Rabbi B. you have no case, and the Tshuva you quote from Reb Moshe isn't about a metzius, which could be proven by speaking to the other person,(if he will speak to you, which after how you blog, he may have good reason not to)& you know it here again you are writing your own book & if you sleep well at night it says something about you.

Learning from a teacher who is not fit

 Maharal (Nesivos HaTorah 1:14):It is prohibited to learn from a teacher who is not fit. However, this is not a valid objection since the prohibition applies only to learning from a heretic in person. It is only close personal contact that is prohibited and thus reading a book composed by a heretic would not be present this problem. Nevertheless the question remains whether it is permitted to study their books when they contain attacks against the Torah concerning such thing as the Creation of the world, G‑d’s knowledge, survival of the soul after death and whether the World to Come exists. Perhaps they should be prohibited because they might be a harmful influence? ... However Avos (2:14) says that one must know how to respond to heretical views and if one has not been exposed to heresy how would it be possible to respond to these views? Obviously, it is necessary to be aware of the views of heretics. However, this is obviously permitted only if the intent is to learn their views in order to be able to refute them. If he has this motivation, then it is permitted to read their books and there is no need to avoid them out of the concern of being influenced. However to learn their books and quote their views in order to explain Torah when these heretics have no portion in the Torah—the name of the wicked is to be obliterated... Recently these types of heretical works have circulated and they have negatively influenced people even concerning the foundations of faith... However, if the discussion found in these works supports and reinforces the words of our sages then it appropriate to accept. However if it against our sages even in the slightest, G‑d forbid that it be accepted at all. The general rule is to study their words in order to be able to refute their criticisms…. One should always be careful and diligent with his entire being to establish the truth. This is what our Sages commanded forcefully that one should be very diligent in their studies to learn what to reply to the heretic… It is obvious that this is not limited to Greek philosophy in which they analyzed things entirely with their intellect. In fact, it is a caution to be very diligent and to think carefully to be able to reply to their assertions in order to establish the true religion…

Authority of Gedolim II - Because they are accepted - not because of their knowledge

I asserted in my previous post that being a gadol is the result of being accepted and once accepted the gadol's authority is not from his sources or his reasoning but his authority transcends them because he is a gadol. The New York Times once printed the following statement from Rav Moshe Feinstein as to how he became the posek hador. "People came and asked me questions and they liked what I said and it was accepted and then more people come and eventually I became widely accepted as a posek." It is important to note that when Rav Moshe was buried in Israel - and had the largest funeral up till that time - he was viewed by most religious Israelis as a tzadik and not as posek hador. On the other hand Rav Moshe was not automatically accepted in whatever he said. I still recall the ads in the Jewish Press begging people to come to the MTJ dinner to support Rav Moshe's yeshiva. "He is there when you need him - so be there when he needs you." It wasn't too successful. The absence of gedolim in MO circle's is not because they don't have high level talmidei chachomim - but because the MO rabbis view themselves as authorities based on texts and sevora - not acceptance. The local rabbi - not the transcendent authority - is what is important to them. The MO are not looking for transcendent authorities - and thus they don't have them. [Not because the "narrow minded" Chareidim reject them.] It is similar to a super star in any field. They are not necessarily the most talented in the absolute sense - but they are the ones accepted as super stars. They are the charismatics as Max Weber defines - that are perceived and accepted as the embodiment of the system - at least for some issues. Rav Soloveitchik was arguably the greatest Torah genius of the 20th century - but the MO were not interested in submitting themselves to him and accepting his judgments - his "Daas Torah". Instead they relied on their local rabbi or on themselves. Rabbi Rakkefet told me that Rav Solveitchik encouraged this independent thinking - because Rav Soloveitchik viewed that the lack of independent thinking among European Jews was a major factor in the great destruction of the Holocaust. As a perhaps over simplistic but valid generalization: amongst the MO all those who have semicha are viewed as equal authorities. Three examples. Rav Moshe Feinstein discussed how a marriage could be annulled because of erroneous assumptions on the part of the couple about each other. Rabbi Rackman claims he is annulling marriages based on Rav Moshe's precedent. His ruling are widely rejected - "because he is not Rav Moshe." Similarly Rabbi Riskin has made ruling based on Rav Moshe's psakim - which have not been accepted "because he is not Rav Moshe." A certain rav was told by Rav Moshe that certain couples did not need a divorce because Rav Moshe held their marriage was not valid. The children of these couples after remarriage were not considered mamzerim by Rav Eliashiv and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach - even though they disagreed with Rav Moshe's servora - but because they accepted the authority of Rav Moshe. After Rav Moshe was niftar this rav went to Rav Eliashiv had told him that he had another case - exactly the same as Rav Moshe had said did not need a divorce. Rav Eliashiv told him he did not agree with the logic of Rav Moshe's psak and thus would declare the children mamzerim - if this rav followed the precedent he had heard from Rav Moshe. Rav Eliashiv told him to find a rav comparable in stature to Rav Moshe and then he would accept the psak that the children were not mamzerim. Thus it was Rav Moshe's accepted stature - not his logic or sources - which were authoritative. This despite that Rav Moshe Feinstein clearly states in the introduction to the Igros Moshe that his authority comes from the acceptance of his reasoning. A clear precedent for the above is BM 59b. R' Eliezar HaGadol was clearly the superior talmid chachom of his generation and he was certified by Heaven which announced that the halacha was like him in all places. -Yet his rulings were completely rejected by his peers and he was placed in cherem. Because the authority of a gadol depends upon acceptance - not knowledge of Torah. Bava Metzia (59b): [Soncino translation] this was the oven of ‘Aknai.1 Why [the oven of] ‘Aknai? — Said Rab Judah in Samuel's name: [It means] that they encompassed it with arguments2 as a snake, and proved it unclean. It has been taught: On that day R. Eliezer brought forward every imaginable argument ,3 but they did not accept them. Said he to them: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let this carob-tree prove it!’ Thereupon the carob-tree was torn a hundred cubits out of its place — others affirm, four hundred cubits. ‘No proof can be brought from a carob-tree,’ they retorted. Again he said to them: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let the stream of water prove it!’ Whereupon the stream of water flowed backwards — ‘No proof can be brought from a stream of water,’ they rejoined. Again he urged: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let the walls of the schoolhouse prove it,’ whereupon the walls inclined to fall. But R. Joshua rebuked them, saying: ‘When scholars are engaged in a halachic dispute, what have ye to interfere?’ Hence they did not fall, in honour of R. Joshua, nor did they resume the upright, in honour of R. Eliezer; and they are still standing thus inclined. Again he said to them: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let it be proved from Heaven!’ Whereupon a Heavenly Voice cried out: ‘Why do ye dispute with R. Eliezer, seeing that in all matters the halachah agrees with him!’ But R. Joshua arose and exclaimed: ‘It is not in heaven.’4 What did he mean by this? — Said R. Jeremiah: That the Torah had already been given at Mount Sinai; we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice, because Thou hast long since written in the Torah at Mount Sinai, After the majority must one incline.5 R. Nathan met Elijah6 and asked him: What did the Holy One, Blessed be He, do in that hour? — He laughed [with joy], he replied, saying, ‘My sons have defeated Me, My sons have defeated Me.’

Daas Torah first failure

 Sotah(12a) The verse states: “And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took for a wife a daughter of Levi” (Exodus 2:1). The Gemara asks: To where did he go? Rav Yehuda bar Zevina says: He went according to the advice of his daughter Miriam, as the Gemara will proceed to explain.A Sage teaches: Amram, the father of Moses, was the great man of his generation. Once he saw that the wicked Pharaoh said: “Every son that is born you shall cast into the river, and every daughter you shall save alive” (Exodus 1:22), he said: We are laboring for nothing by bringing children into the world to be killed. Therefore, he arose and divorced his wife. All others who saw this followed his example and arose and divorced their wives. His daughter, Miriam, said to him: Father, your decree is more harsh for the Jewish people than that of Pharaoh, as Pharaoh decreed only with regard to the males, but you decreed both on the males and on the females. And now no children will be born. Additionally, Pharaoh decreed to kill them only in this world, but you decreed in this world and in the World-to-Come, as those not born will not enter the World-to-Come.Miriam continued: Additionally, concerning Pharaoh the wicked, it is uncertain whether his decree will be fulfilled, and it is uncertain if his decree will not be fulfilled. You are a righteous person, and as such, your decrees will certainly be fulfilled, as it is stated with regard to the righteous: “You shall also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto you” (Job 22:28). Amram accepted his daughter’s words and arose and brought back, i.e., remarried, his wife, and all others who saw this followed his example and arose and brought back their wives.

Age of the Universe

 https://www.torahmusings.com/2006/06/age-of-universe/

 I received this via e-mail from R. Daniel Eidensohn, with permission to post:

This Shabbos (June 17, 2006) I had the opportunity to ask Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky about the issue of the age of the universe. As some of you are aware, the issue is heating up again. There are some who would claim that Rav Shmuel has changed his position on the matter or deny that he ever permitted belief in a greater than 6000 year old universe. I had only a short time to speak to him so I limited myself to this issue.

I asked him, “Is it permitted to believe that the world is more than 6000 years?”

He responded that it was permitted since we don’t have a clear understanding of the view of Chazal in this matter. He supported this assertion by citing a number of medrashim e.g., that there were worlds before this that were created and destroyed. Consequently we simply don’t know how much time the original process of creation took. I mentioned that there are gedolim who have asserted that since the majority of gedolim reject the view that the world is more than 6000 years old that is is kefira to assert such a position today. He said he was aware of such an assertion but disagreed with it. He noted that in fact the discussion about the age of the universe is not a new topic. He said that Rav Avraham ben HaRambam disagreed with the approach of these gedolim and that after Techiyas HaMeisim these gedolim would have to explain to Rav Avraham ben HaRambam why they disagreed with him.

In sum, I have recently asked two gedolim [Rav Shmuel and R. Yisroel Belsky – GS] about whether it was permitted to believe that the universe is more than 6000 years old and both unequivocally responded that it was permitted. Both based themselves on
the fact that we don’t have an unambiguous mesora regarding the meaning of relevant statements of chazal and rishonim. Both of them also acknowledged that the majority of gedolim today disagree with them.

Daniel Eidensohn

Was Yakov referring to G-d or an angel?

 There seems to be a major dispute whether to understand Yaakov's bracha as  referring to an angel or simply an agent of G-d

 Rashi under stands it is simply an agent of G-d

 

המלאך הגאל אתי THE ANGEL REDEEMING ME — The angel who was usually sent to me in my trouble, as it is said, (Genesis 31:11) “And the angel of God said unto me in the dream: Jacob etc. … (Genesis 31:13), I am the God of Beth-el.”

 

Pesachim (118a) And Rabbi Yoḥanan said: The task of providing a person’s food is more difficult than the redemption. While, with regard to the redemption, it is written: “The angel who has redeemed me from all evil” (Genesis 48:16), whereas, with regard to sustenance, it is written: “The God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day” (Genesis 48:15). This verse implies that only God can help one who is struggling to earn a living. 
 
Seforno  Yaakov appeals to his own guardian angels to bless the children if their own merit does not suffice for the guardian angels assigned to them to do the job. 
 
Malbim המלאך הגאל אתי מכל רע. שהנהגת יעקב שהיתה דומה כרועה ירעה צאנו כן היתה הנהגתו עפ"י הטבע לא בנסים גלוים, א"כ היתה ההנהגה ע"י מלאך ושליח מה' לא עפ"י ההשגחה הנסיית בעצמה שזה לא תהיה ע"י מלאך ושליח רק מה' בעצמו ובכבודו.

SUMMARY HALOCHOT ON MO'US OLAY AND SHAMING A HUSBAND BY RABBI GESTETNER"

update: added an approved English summary at the bottom


Rabbi Eidensohn,

I spoke with Rav Gestetner and he reviewed and approved the English summary of his mo'us olay letter that is copied below.

Rabbi Gestetner asked that you please post the English summary under the Hebrew image of his letter that was already posted.

Thank you.

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INFORMAL SUMMARY of RAV GESTETNER'S LETTER ON MO'US OLAY

The whole letter applies to the case of where a wife claims mo'us olay, meaning that the wife is disgusted by her husband.

Being that there is a new trend in our camp to pressure husbands who refuse to give a Get through publicly shaming him with letters from Batei Din and rabbanim (something that rabbanim in previous generations never did) we are publicizing here the clear halacha in this issue that all the poskim unanimously agree upon.

Summarizing what's been written here with all the sources:
Even a husband who is disgusting and has bad character traits, and his wife left him for many years, and she declared that she will never come back to him:
1. He is still not obligated to ever give her a Get,
2. Its prohibited to deny him any benefits if he doesn't give a Get.
3. Its prohibited to tell even him privately that he's obligated to give her a Get and that if he doesn't give a Get, he's a transgressor. If he is told this, then the Get is pasul. (*)
4. All the more so, its prohibited in any manner to shame him in any way, even with a husband who is obligated to give a Get.
5. We can't take any action until one of them changes their mind. Either she wants to come back to him, or he wants to give a Get.

(*) Just to emphasize the extent that this halacha applies, even in a case where a husband betrayed his wife and disappeared for many years, and even after he married another woman in violation of halacha, if after they caught him, he says he's willing to come back to his first wife, and the first wife doesn't want to accept him, the halacha is that we aren't even allowed to tell him that he's required to give her a Get, even though she was a real agunah up to now.

The letter is emphasizing that shaming a husband is equal to beating him up for a Get. Once a husband is willing to come back to his wife, we can't claim she's an agunah.
==================================Criticism of Rav Gestetner's views

I published the view of Rav Gestetner without reading either the Hebrew or English document before publishing them. However on reading them I disagree strongly with his statement that no one disagrees with his conclusions.

I don't think that what Rav Gestetner presented is normative halacha. If a beis din views that the wife's claims are legitimate and objectively that the husband is disgusting - there are pressures that can be brought on the husband and in fact are. To simply make a blanket statement that no matter how disgusting the husband is or what he does - that no pressure can be brought is simply not true nor is reflective of what is done in beis din.

Not that there aren't poskim who hold these views - but I don't think it is helpful to deny what recognized poskim do. Here are a number of sources which clearly indicate that pressure is put on the husband - though it is clearly limited within the boundaries of Rabbeinu Tam. This is against the conclusion of Rav Gestetner point daled "Also the harhachkas of Rabbeinu Tam are invalid today. In other words even "withholding benefit" alone.is also prohibited to do today because it is considered to be like nidoi and also because the rationale offered by Rabbeinu Tam " that the husband is able to go to another place where they don't know about it.  Therefore even this type of pressure invalidates the Get.

In sum, Rav Sternbuch's printed teshuvos which I have translated below clearly disagree with the view of Rav Gestestner. The fact that he does not acknowledge the legitimate differences regarding this issue is simply not acceptable - nor does he either bother citing them.
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Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 154:1): These are the cases where the husband is forced to divorce his wife and give her the kesuba. A person who has developed bad breath, or bad odor from the nose or has started a job as collector of dog excrement or tanner or a miner of copper. However if she wants she can continue living with him (And if she knew about these conditions before they got married he is forced to divorce her because she thought she could live with it Tur) If the husband developed boils then we force him to divorce his wife and to give her the kesuba even if she wants to remain living with him (or she made an agreement with him before they got married) we do not listen to her but we force them to separate – because sexual intercourse is unhealthy for him. If she says that she will live with him with witnesses so that they won’t have sexual intercourse – then we listen to her. Rema: Some say that if he became an apostate then we force him to divorce with the help of non Jews... And others disagree and say we don’t force an apostate or anyone else who transgresses Judaism to divorce unless he causes his wife to sin e.g., feeding her treif food or he transgressed the promise that he took on himself not to fight with her or to hit her or he takes oaths and doesn’t fulfill them because children die for the sin of transgressing oaths. A person who runs a house of prostitution and his wife complains – if there is testimony that confirms this or he confesses – there are those who say we force him to divorce his wife. However if they bring non Jewish children to him that is not a basis to be concerned because they might be lying about him.

Shulchan Aruch )E. H. 154:21): All those cases which the gemora says that the wife should be given a divorce – that means that the husband can be forced by being beaten with sticks. However some say that all those cases in which the gemora does not explicitly say the husband is forced to give a get but only says the wife should be divorced – the husband is not to be forced with sticks, but is only told ,”The sages require you to divorce your wife” and if he does not divorce his wife then it is permitted to call him an avaryan. Rema: Since this is a dispute of the sages [whether all cases where the sages say to divorce one’s wife the husband may be forcing by a beating] it is appropriate to be machmir and not beat him in order to avoid making a get me’usa (invalid get because of coercion). But if the marriage constitutes a sin then everyone agrees that the husband can be forced to divorce with a beating. As a general rule all cases where beating is not permitted we also do not use nidoi Nevertheless in these cases [where beating and nidoi are not permitted] it is possible to decree on all Jews not to do any favor for him or do business with him or to circumcise his sons or to bury him – until he divorces his wife. Any chumra that beis din wants to do they can do – as long as it doesn’t constitute nidoi. However one who doesn’t fulfill his sexual obligations to his wife it is possible to place him in nidoi or cherem until he fulfills his obligation or divorces his wife. This is not force except to motivate him to fulfill his obligation...


Prison
Yabia Omer (E.H. 3:20.34): We learn from all this that we have mentioned that we have found that many of the great and mighty of the Rishonim held like the Rambam that we force the husband to divorce his wife when she claims ma’us alei. We also note that there was a decree by the Saboraim to force a get for ma’us alei. The decree was enforced until the time of the Gaonim – a period of almost 600 years. They did significant things in order to force the husband to divorce when she said ma’us alei. It is true however that many of the poskim did not agree to this and this includes the Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 77) who says not to force a divorce. Nevertheless when there are other significant factors for a divorce then we combine them and rely on this in practise. This approach to force a get in ma’us alei is particularly relevant for Yeminites who have never deviated from the rulings of the Rambam in everything he says. They already have had the practise in Yemen to force the husband to give a get when she says ma’us alei – in accord with the view of the Rambam. Therefore it is appropriate that they continue this practice here in Israel to retain their normative practise. In addition in the present case there were witness that the wife was forced into marriage. Despite her resistance to marry this man her relatives forced her with irresistible force and trickery to marry him. The view of the Rashbash is well known that in such a case we force the husband to divorce her. There are many Achronim who say to rely on the Rashbash in this matter to force a divorce. In particular where there are other doubts and double doubts that can be combined. The words of the Rashbatz are well known, “Even though there are in the teshuvos of the great Achronim rulings that the husband should not be forced at all in the case of ma’us alei, nevertheless we are not insignificant authorities and this issue of divorce is dependent on logic and commonsense. A judge can only make rulings based on what he sees.” We see a similar statement in Yachin v’Boaz...So even the Rashbat who accepts the view of the poskim who disagree with the Rambam – agrees that when there are other significant facts that one can be lenient and follow the Rambam...In another teshuva I go into detail to show that there are a number of poskim – both Rishonim and Achronim – that say that if the beis din rules that the husband is forced to give a get according to various poskim – even if they are mistaken – and thus it is a get me’us – the get is only rabbinically invalid. And so sure with the type of coercion which is done today which doesn’t involve beatings but only imprisonment – which has nothing to do with the imprisonment of previous ages – that makes it only a double rabbinic doubt. And according to many poskim we can act deliberately lenient in a case of rabbinic doubt and surely when it is a double rabbinic doubt. And this is surely true in an emergency situation involving an aguna such as this. And it is is infinitely more so in the case of ma’us alei in which many poskim are lenient but according to the straight law and also because of authoritative decree. And even the Rosh who disagrees with the Rambam’s position writes that bedieved if the husband had been forced to give a get – then it is done already and we accept the get as valid. The Rashbatz says the same thing. And a woman who had been divorced with this forced get can get married l’chatchila. So surely in our case where the marriage was coerced that the get can be forced l’chatchila. In addition the is a basis in this case to question the validity of the marriage itself since it was done through threats and as a minimum he definitely acted inappropriately in how the marriage was done. So even though we are not going to annul his marriage nevertheless it is an additional basis to force the get. In addition the wife is a very young woman and she is alienated from her husband – there is a very real danger according to what the beis din has observed that she might degenerate morally and go in an immoral path if her hopes for a get are dashed. Given that she has been chained for many years as an aguna. We have already mentioned that Rav Chaim Palaggi said, “In such a case to force the husband to give a get. There are other poskim who say we should be exceedingly lenient in such cases to prevent her going into an immoral path and that she should reject Judaism – especially when she is so young.... And especially when it looks like she will remain an aguna her whole life – it will definitely lead to disaster. And surely in modern times when immorality has increased and modesty has decrease.”... An additional factor is that after beis din has issued a ruling that the husband must give his wife a get there is an issue that there is a mitzva to listen to the words of the sages. And so even according to the poskim who disagree with the Rambam they would agree that the husband has an obligation to give a get. The husband continues to be stubborn and rejects all suggestions of the beis din to resolve the issue. He just refuses to listen. Also the woman said in front of beis din and her husband that she has run out of patience and she threatened that if she isn’t divorce she will go in the ways of sin. She apology later was done solely at the direction of her lawyer. The beis din thought she was serious and not an idle threat. There is also absolutely no chance that she will agree to return to her husband and give him another chance despite great efforts to placate her with pleas and expensive gifts. She repeated refused to consider that option. She definitely will never change her mind. Therefore when all of these facts are combined, we rule with the full authority of beis din that the husband is to be forced until he says he is giving the get willingly.... And given that he is stubborn and has hardened his heart he was not likely to comply by the mere fact that the beis din say he must give a get. Therefore he was taken to prison by the government forces in order to force him to comply with beis din’s ruling. After he sat in jail for a number of days he agreed to divorce his wife. That was arranged by this court... Therefore the woman is free to marry anyone she wishes – except for a cohen...[
Telling husband it is a mitzva to give/Sin not to

Rav Ovadiya Yosef (Yabia Omer E.H. 3:18.13) : And in truth even according to the view of the poskim who hold that one does not force the husband to give a get when she claims ma'us alei, nevertheless there is a view that says there is a mitzva for the husband to divorce her and surely when there is a concern that because of the delay in get a get she will go off the derech. As we find in Shita Mekubetes (Kesubos 64)," Rabbeinu Yona wrote, "Even though we don't force a man to give a get when the wife says he is ma'us alei (disgusting to me) - that is only referring to forcing him by beating him with staffs. However beis din informs him that he has a mitzva to divorce her and they advise him to divorce her. And if he doesn't not in fact divorce her then this is a case of when a person transgresses the words of the rabbis that it is permitted to call him a sinner. However Rabbeinu Tam disagreed and said that even this we don't say to him but if he should come to ask whether he should divorce her without her getting the kesuba then beis din gives him the advice that he should divorce her immediately." Furthermore the Rema (Y.D. 248:20) writes that when the wife says ma'us alei the husband is obligated to divorce her. The Taz notes that the Rema here is only reporting the view of the Rambam but the Rema's true view is recorded in E.H. 77 where he doesn't mention that the husband should be forced to divorce her. But according to what we have said the words of the Rema (Y.D. 248.20) has a solid basis and that is the words of Rabbeinu Yonah. This is also noted by my friend the Tzitz Eliezar (5:26.4) based on the Noda B'Yehuda Kama (YD 68) who brings the words of the Rema as halacha l'maaseh and foundation principle. He notes that there is a basis to utilize this view at times of need according to the specific facts and needs of the time and appropriateness - depending on the evaluation of the beis din. I also say that in contemporary society with the degradation of the generations in free countries where every man does what he thinks is correct and there is a great increase in arrogance in the world and experience has taught that when a woman leaves her husband with the claim of ma'us alei and she is in limbo without receiving a get - that she will go and live with other men without the slightest shame or sense of embarrassment. As a result there is an increase in mamzerim in the world. In such a case we say that their degradation is to their benefit. This is expressed by the Ramban (Kesubos 63b), "Chas V'Shalom I am not arguing against the decree of the Gaonim to force him to divorce his wife and not only that but I strongly criticize those who say that it is not correct to follow their decrees but only the law as stated in the Talmud. In fact it is correct to listen to the Gaonim and to follow their decrees. Nevertheless now it is best to be very concern not to follow their decree because it has been abrogated because of the immorality of the generation." In other words in the time of the Ramban, even though women then had the brazeness to claim ma'us alei but they did not reach the extreme of chutpza to live with another man without receiving a get as we find in our days. But in the days before Moshiach as we are in now it is extremely relevant to considering returning to the decree of the Gaonim. And this is surely true when she is young and there is a real concern that she will go off the derech and there isn't much chance that she will return to her husband. Therefore it would appear that those who want to do something to force the husband to give a get have a solid basis for that decision. That is because the concerns that existed at the time of the Gaonim that the woman might go off the derech have returned. [In the time of the Gaonim the concern was that the woman would convert to Christianitity for Islam rather than face end her days as an aguna]. Thus we see that whether the get should be forced or not is dependent on the particular time and era. And thus I have seen the gedol hador - Rav Chaim Palaggi in his Chaim v'Shalom (2:35) where he writes regarding forcing the husband that the view of a number of poskim including the Beis Yosef that the husband should not be forced to give a get. He writes, "Nevertheless according to everyone agrees that the woman is not forced to live with the husband. Therefore after a year or two after the time that they have separated from each other it would appear that he should be forced to divorce her. That is because there are two factors. The man is not able to exist without a wife and the wife herself is not able to be without a husband. And this is surely true where she is young that we have to be concerned for disastrous results when she is chained as an aguna. Just look at how lenient the poskim are concerning preventing agunos in particular when she is young until they even go the extreme of relying on a minority opinion. And surely the obligation lies on every dayan to be lenient is this manner in order to avoid trouble for both the man and the woman." Rav Chaim Palaggi is a great tree that one can rely on and surely in our day. And it is the same thing in cases where it is possible to combine various disputes of the poskim besides the claim of ma'us alei to be lenient. Also study Chaim V' Shalom (2:112), If there is a dispute between a husband and wife and the wife wants to be divorced and the husband refuses - one should establish a limited time for the matter to be resolved. And if we wait until 18 months and we have despaired of reconciliation and it appears to beis din that there is nothing more than can be done for the marriage - they should separate the couple and force the husband to give a get until he proclaim,I want to give it.All of this that I have written is for the honor of G-d and His Torah." It is possible that Rav Palaggi is not talking about forcing with clubs but rather just calling him a sinner or similar techniques which is in accord with the view of Rabbeinu Yona and the Rema which we mentioned before.

Forced Get – kosher bedieved?

Yabia Omer (E.H. 3:20.34): We learn from all this that we have mentioned that we have found that many of the great and mighty of the Rishonim held like the Rambam that we force the husband to divorce his wife when she claims ma’us alei. We also note that there was a decree by the Saboraim to force a get for ma’us alei. The decree was enforced until the time of the Gaonim – a period of almost 600 years. They did significant things in order to force the husband to divorce when she said ma’us alei. It is true however that many of the poskim did not agree to this and this includes the Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 77) who says not to force a divorce. Nevertheless when there are other significant factors for a divorce then we combine them and rely on this in practise. This approach to force a get in ma’us alei is particularly relevant for Yeminites who have never deviated from the rulings of the Rambam in everything he says. They already have had the practice in Yemen to force the husband to give a get when she says ma’us alei – in accord with the view of the Rambam. Therefore it is appropriate that they continue this practise here in Israel to retain their normative practise. In addition in the present case there were witness that the wife was forced into marriage. Despite her resistance to marry this man her relatives forced her with irresistible force and trickery to marry him. The view of the Rashbash is well known that in such a case we force the husband to divorce her. There are many Achronim who say to rely on the Rashbash in this matter to force a divorce. In particular where there are other doubts and double doubts that can be combined. The words of the Rashbatz are well known, “Even though there are in the teshuvos of the great Achronim rulings that the husband should not be forced at all in the case of ma’us alei, nevertheless we are not insignificant authorities and this issue of divorce is dependent on logic and commonsense. A judge can only make rulings based on what he sees.” We see a similar statement in Yachin v’Boaz...So even the Rashbat who accepts the view of the poskim who disagree with the Rambam – agrees that when there are other significant facts that one can be lenient and follow the Rambam...In another teshuva I go into detail to show that there are a number of poskim – both Rishonim and Achronim – that say that if the beis din rules that the husband is forced to give a get according to various poskim – even if they are mistaken – and thus it is a get me’usa – the get is only rabbinically invalid. And so surely with the type of coercion which is done today which doesn’t involve beatings but only imprisonment – which has nothing to do with the imprisonment of previous ages – that makes it only a double rabbinic doubt. And according to many poskim we can act deliberately lenient in a case of rabbinic doubt and surely when it is a double rabbinic doubt. And this is surely true in an emergency situation involving an aguna such as this. And it is is infinitely more so in the case of ma’us alei in which many poskim are lenient but according to the straight law and also because of authoritative decree. And even the Rosh who disagrees with the Rambam’s position writes that bedieved if the husband had been forced to give a get – then it is done already and we accept the get as valid. The Rashbatz says the same thing. And a woman who had been divorced with this forced get can get married l’chatchila. So surely in our case where the marriage was coerced that the get can be forced l’chatchila. In addition the is a basis in this case to question the validity of the marriage itself since it was done through threats and as a minimum he definitely acted inappropriately in how the marriage was done. So even though we are not going to annul his marriage nevertheless it is an additional basis to force the get. In addition the wife is a very young woman and she is alienated from her husband – there is a very real danger according to what the beis din has observed that she might degenerate morally and go in an immoral path if her hopes for a get are dashed. Given that she has been chained for many years as an aguna. We have already mentioned that Rav Chaim Palaggi said, “In such a case to force the husband to give a get. There are other poskim who say we should be exceedingly lenient in such cases to prevent her going into an immoral path and that she should reject Judaism – especially when she is so young.... And especially when it looks like she will remain an aguna her whole life – it will definitely lead to disaster. And surely in modern times when immorality has increased and modesty has decrease.”... An additional factor is that after beis din has issued a ruling that the husband must give his wife a get there is an issue that there is a mitzva to listen to the words of the sages. And so even according to the poskim who disagree with the Rambam they would agree that the husband has an obligation to give a get. The husband continues to be stubborn and rejects all suggestions of the beis din to resolve the issue. He just refuses to listen. Also the woman said in front of beis din and her husband that she has run out of patience and she threatened that if she isn’t divorce she will go in the ways of sin. She apology later was done solely at the direction of her lawyer. The beis din thought she was serious and not an idle threat. There is also absolutely no chance that she will agree to return to her husband and give him another chance despite great efforts to placate her with pleas and expensive gifts. She repeated refused to consider that option. She definitely will never change her mind. Therefore when all of these facts are combined, we rule with the full authority of beis din that the husband is to be forced until he says he is giving the get willingly.... And given that he is stubborn and has hardened his heart he was not likely to comply by the mere fact that the beis din say he must give a get. Therefore he was taken to prison by the government forces in order to force him to comply with beis din’s ruling. After he sat in jail for a number of days he agreed to divorce his wife. That was arranged by this court... Therefore the woman is free to marry anyone she wishes – except for a cohen...[

Rav Sternbuch (5:345): Question: A woman who has been separated from her husband for a number of years and she claims ma’us alei and there is a clear basis for this claim which has been verified. It is clear that there is no chance that they will reconcile. The husband is close to one of the chassidic rebbes who gives him great honor. The beis din has meat with them many times and is firmly convinced that there is no possibility of reconciliation. Therefore they asked th husband to give his wife a get. However the husband has acted cruelly and refused and Even though I am presently traveling but since this is an emergency situation I will answer briefly. You should know that many of the Rishonim including the Rambam and Rashi ruled that in a case of ma’us alei we force the husband to give a get. And some say that we force the get because of a decree of the Geonim. In contrast, Rabbeinu Tam and the Ri as well as other Rishonim disagreed and they held that a get can not be forced in a case of ma’us alei. The Rosh writes (43:6) that since there is a major dispute as to what the halacha is we don’t stick our heads between the great mountains. He also writes that whoever is lenient and forces a get results in an increase in mamzerim. The Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 77:2) also says not to foce the get. So even though we agree that the get should not be forced when a claim of ma’us alei, nevertheless such a husband should not be given honor. Therefore it is necessary to inform the rebbe who is honoring him that he is giving the husband help to torment his wife which is a severe sin. [[

Harchakas of Rabbeinu Tam don’t make get me’usa

Shulchan Aruch )E. H. 154:21): All those cases which the gemora says that the wife should be given a divorce – that means that the husband can be forced by being beaten with sticks. However some say that all those cases in which the gemora does not explicitly say the husband is forced to give a get but only says the wife should be divorced – the husband is not to be forced with sticks, but is only told ,”The sages require you to divorce your wife” and if he does not divorce his wife then it is permitted to call him an avaryan. Rema: Since this is a dispute of the sages [whether all cases where the sages say to divorce one’s wife the husband may be forcing by a beating] it is appropriate to be machmir and not beat him in order to avoid making a get me’usa (invalid get because of coercion). But if the marriage constitutes a sin then everyone agrees that the husband can be forced to divorce with a beating. As a general rule all cases where beating is not permitted we also do not use nidoi Nevertheless in these cases [where beating and nidoi are not permitted] it is possible to decree on all Jews not to do any favor for him or do business with him or to circumcise his sons or to bury him – until he divorces his wife. Any chumra that beis din wants to do they can do – as long as it doesn’t constitute nidoi. However one who doesn’t fulfill his sexual obligations to his wife it is possible to place him in nidoi or cherem until he fulfills his obligation or divorces his wife. This is not force except to motivate him to fulfill his obligation...

Tzitz Eliezer (17:51): There is a couple who have been married 20 years and have not been successful in having children. There have been medical treatments for more than 15 years without success. The wife blames the husband and the husband claims that both of them require treatment and that he is hopefully that they still might have children. The wife wants a divorce she says she only have a few more years in which she can give birth as she is 46 years old. They have been living separately for the last few years because the wife claims she can not stand living with him anymore. The medical reports that both of them have defects in their reproductive organs and that they are more likely to have children with other partners. The beis din in Jerusalem has already posken that the husband is obligated to give his wife a get but added that it is impossible to force him. The husband doesn’t reject the decision that he is obligated while the wife has complained to us that the husband was obligated and she wants a posek to that effect. We have tried every possible way to motivate the husband to agree to a get without success. The husband had requested that the beis din reevaluate the situation since his medical condition had improved and they reacted by the statement mentioned above that he could not be forced to give a get but they said that was true in his unimproved condition also – but that they still felt he was obligated to divorce his wife and there was no need to reopen the case. In light of these facts the wife came before us and requested a psak that the husband should be forced to divorce her since it was apparent that they weren’t going to have children together and it was mainly her husband’s fault. After our beis din investigated the material thoroughly we issued a psak that said, “After investigation of the matter we find that there is not sufficient basis to change what the original beis din ruled which was that there is no grounds to force the husband to give a get to his wife. Nonetheless he is obligated to give a get according to the original psak. We note that it is wrong that the husband is to making her an aguna. The husband who claims to be Torah and mitzva observant but yet doesn’t listen to the psak of the beis din is committing a serious sin. We call on him to change his evil ways and act like a good Jew which includes obeying the mitzva of listening to the sages and he should give a get immediately and not leave a Jewish woman as an aguna. Therefore it was decided 1) that the beis din is not complying with the appeal of the wife who requested that her husband be forced to give a get. 2) the husband is obligated to give a get to his wife immediately 3) If the husband doesn’t give a get within 3 month then the beis din will deal with taking appropriate action as described in Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 154) and the commentaries.Now three months have passed and there has been no response or action. The husband is ignoring the matter and he maintains his rebellion in not freeing his wife from being an aguna. Therefore we have told the husband that which it says in Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 154:21), “The Chachoim have obligated you to divorce your wife and if you don’t - it is permitted to call you a sinner (avaryan).” Consequently we turn to Jews everywhere to come to the aid of the Jewish woman - who has been made into an aguna because her husband refuses to listen to beis din to free her from her chained status by giving her a get – by refusing to do any favor for him or to have dealings with him until he has given a get as the Rema paskened Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 154) and similar sanctions. That is because it is clear that the cause for the woman request for a get is do to the faults of the husband. [[

Rav Ovadiya Yosef (Yabia Omer E.H. 3:18.13) : And in truth even according to the view of the poskim who hold that one does not force the husband to give a get when she claims ma'us alei, nevertheless there is a view that says there is a mitzva for the husband to divorce her and surely when there is a concern that because of the delay in get a get she will go off the derech. As we find in Shita Mekubetes (Kesubos 64)," Rabbeinu Yona wrote, "Even though we don't force a man to give a get when the wife says he is ma'us alei (disgusting to me) - that is only referring to forcing him by beating him with staffs. However beis din informs him that he has a mitzva to divorce her and they advise him to divorce her. And if he doesn't not in fact divorce her then this is a case of when a person transgresses the words of the rabbis that it is permitted to call him a sinner. However Rabbeinu Tam disagreed and said that even this we don't say to him but if he should come to ask whether he should divorce her without her getting the kesuba then beis din gives him the advice that he should divorce her immediately." Furthermore the Rema (Y.D. 248:20) writes that when the wife says ma'us alei the husband is obligated to divorce her. The Taz notes that the Rema here is only reporting the view of the Rambam but the Rema's true view is recorded in E.H. 77 where he doesn't mention that the husband should be forced to divorce her. But according to what we have said the words of the Rema (Y.D. 248.20) has a solid basis and that is the words of Rabbeinu Yonah. This is also noted by my friend the Tzitz Eliezar (5:26.4) based on the Noda B'Yehuda Kama (YD 68) who brings the words of the Rema as halacha l'maaseh and foundation principle. He notes that there is a basis to utilize this view at times of need according to the specific facts and needs of the time and appropriateness - depending on the evaluation of the beis din. I also say that in contemporary society with the degradation of the generations in free countries where every man does what he thinks is correct and there is a great increase in arrogance in the world and experience has taught that when a woman leaves her husband with the claim of ma'us alei and she is in limbo without receiving a get - that she will go and live with other men without the slightest shame or sense of embarrassment. As a result there is an increase in mamzerim in the world. In such a case we say that their degradation is to their benefit. This is expressed by the Ramban (Kesubos 63b), "Chas V'Shalom I am not arguing against the decree of the Gaonim to force him to divorce his wife and not only that but I strongly criticize those who say that it is not correct to follow their decrees but only the law as stated in the Talmud. In fact it is correct to listen to the Gaonim and to follow their decrees. Nevertheless now it is best to be very concern not to follow their decree because it has been abrogated because of the immorality of the generation." In other words in the time of the Ramban, even though women then had the brazenness to claim ma'us alei but they did not reach the extreme of chutpza to live with another man without receiving a get as we find in our days. But in the days before Moshiach as we are in now it is extremely relevant to considering returning to the decree of the Gaonim. And this is surely true when she is young and there is a real concern that she will go off the derech and there isn't much chance that she will return to her husband. Therefore it would appear that those who want to do something to force the husband to give a get have a solid basis for that decision. That is because the concerns that existed at the time of the Gaonim that the woman might go off the derech have returned. [In the time of the Gaonim the concern was that the woman would convert to Christianitity for Islam rather than face end her days as an anguna]. Thus we see that whether the get should be forced or not is dependent on the particular time and era. And thus I have seen the gedol hador - Rav Chaim Palaggi in his Chaim v'Shalom (2:35) where he writes regarding forcing the husband that the view of a number of poskim including the Beis Yosef that the husband should not be forced to give a get. He writes, "Nevertheless according to everyone agrees that the woman is not forced to live with the husband. Therefore after a year or two after the time that they have separated from each other it would appear that he should be forced to divorce her. That is because there are two factors. The man is not able to exist without a wife and the wife herself is not able to be without a husband. And this is surely true where she is young that we have to be concerned for disastrous results when she is chained as an aguna. Just look at how lenient the poskim are concerning preventing agunos in particular when she is young until they even go the extreme of relying on a minority opinion. And surely the obligation lies on every dayan to be lenient is this manner in order to avoid trouble for both the man and the woman." Rav Chaim Palaggi is a great tree that one can rely on and surely in our day. And it is the same thing in cases where it is possible to combine various disputes of the poskim besides the claim of ma'us alei to be lenient. Also study Chaim V' Shalom (2:112), If there is a dispute between a husband and wife and the wife wants to be divorced and the husband refuses - one should establish a limited time for the matter to be resolved. And if we wait until 18 months and we have despaired of reconcilliation and it appears to beis din that there is nothing more than can be done for the marriage - they should separate the couple and force the husband to give a get until he proclaim,I want to give it.All of this that I have written is for the honor of G-d and His Torah." It is possible that Rav Palaggi is not talking about forcing with clubs but rather just calling him a sinner or similar techniques which is in accord with the view of Rabbeinu Yona and the Rema which we mentioned before.


Rav Sternbuch (4:301):… You should be aware that we are obligated to fight against her going to secular courts and we prevent her from remarrying if she does and if the get is given under these circumstances there is a suspicion that it was coerced (me'usa). Nevertheless in a case where she claims she can't stand him (ma'us alei) and there is no reason to believe they can be reconciled and the man is simply being cruel to her and is being spiteful by not to giving her a divorce - then even though it is prohibited for us to exert any force- G-d forbid! - nevertheless it is correct to notify the husband that the view of many of the gedolim (e.g., Rambam, Ravad, Behag, Rashbam, Rashi etc) is that he is sinning and they would encourage him to give her a get. Because even these poskim are concerned about creating [an invalid get] which would leave her as a married woman even bedieved - so G-d forbid that we should use any type of coercion. Regarding the issue of tormenting her and leaving her an aguna - it is correct for him to be concerned for her claim that she finds him revolting (ma'os alei) and it is prohibited for him to leave her as an aguna - even if she is not correct. But we are not to coerce him G-d forbid with any type of coercion that would possibly bring about a get me'usa. Rather [once we have informed him that it is wrong for him to withhold the get] he needs to come the the realization himself that he must conduct himself like a descendant of Avraham and the verse says that the ways of Torah are ways of pleasantness and all its paths are peace and that he will find happiness with someone else.All of this we need to explain to the husband. That leaving her as an aguna is a transgression of a severe sin of onas devarim - not to torment his wife. That refusing to divorce her serves no purpose except to get revenge against her. He doesn't want to live with her and he shouldn't think her life is worthless and he should be fully aware that in Heaven there is judgment and there is a Judge. He should also be informed that to many of the early gedolim it is correct even to force him to divorce. Unfortunately there are many beis dins that when they see that the husband doesn't want to divorce his wife they simply remain silent. But that is not acceptable. They must inform him that he is unjustifiably tormenting her and this is not correct. This of course is assuming that the beis din is convinced that there is no hope for reconciliation....

Rav Sternbuch (1:789): Question: A woman has suffered for a number of years from her husband who refuses to divorce her - how can he be forced to give a get? Answer: It is an established halacha that if the wife refuses to live with her husband because she claims he is disgusting to her (ma'os alei) that it is impossible to force him to divorce her. This is explicitly stated by the Rema (E.H. 77:3). And even if it has been a number of years that they have separated and he is being spiteful and cruel in refusing to divorce her it is clearly stated by the Teshuvos haRosh (43:6) that if we force him to give the get there is the concern that it is a get me'usa and therefore invalid and it only serves to increase mamzerim. However while it is stated in the Rema (E.H. 154:21) that nidoi (cherem) is considered force and is prohibited, nevertheless he says it is permitted to decree that no Jew should do him a favor or should do business with him or even to circumcise his sons or to bury them - until he divorces his wife. But the Pischei Teshuva (E.H. 154:30) says there these shunnings (harhakos) are equivalent to nidoi (cherem) and are not permitted to be imposed today and the only recourse is to tell him that it is permitted to call him a sinner and he says it is best to be strict according to this opinion. This is agreed to by the Chazon Ish (E.H. 105:12). He concludes in the name of the Rashba that it is not permitted to humiliate the husband or to torment him - examine this well.However it appears that what is prohibited is to humiliate him and to shun him in a manner similar to cherem - i.e, not to do business with him and not to do him a favor - and that is not done today. (Chazon Ish understands the Pischei Teshuva differently). But when he is not actively humiliated but that he is only not given honors for example he is notified that he will not receive an aliyah in his shul or any other shul and that he will not be allowed to be the shliach tzibor - then this is not like cherem at all even though it causes some humiliation. The only pressure permitted is that he should know that the community does not approve of his conduct of being cruel to his wife - but this is not called force at all.I recall witnessing an incident involving Rav Yechiel Weinberg (Seridei Aish) concerning a husband who spitefully refused to divorce his wife after a number of years and he directed that it be known and publicized that this husband was not to get an aliya in the shul. That is in accord with what I have written that this type of pressure is not called force. It is also done here in Yerushalayim to publicize notices in the street that a particular person is a sinner and has made his wife an aguna. In my opinion 1) if she has solid justification for her desire to be divorced then it would be possible and appropriate to force him actively with humiliations to give her a get. We learn from Kesubos (71a) if it is clear that he hates her then he is obligated to divorce her. 2) On the other hand if there is no apparent reason for her being repelled by him we can distance him. I am inclined to permit humiliation in such cases but it is necessary for beis din first to be very careful and thorough in evaluating the situation as to whether it is appropriate. Similarly one should not spare any efforts to encourage that she live with him when she requests a divorce and there is no clear reason except she says she doesn't like him. 3) But if there is a clear reason - then even if we don't force him with a beating we are accustomed to be lenient to pressure him with notices in shuls as I mentioned above.This that the wife creates pressure with the claim that he is tormenting her and she can not stand the situation any more and that she is ready to go to "rabbis" who are lenient in divorce - that is still not justification for us to make rulings against the Torah. The ways of G-d are hidden and some suffer physically while other suffering financially and some suffer in their marriage. We need to hope to G-d that the end of suffering has arrived and that he will divorce her. On the other hand, to force him with high payments for food or to humiliate him when it is not permitted - it doesn't help because this pressure only produces a get me'usa - G-d forbid - which has no validity. But concerning cruelty and spite which is characteristic of Sedom - only Heaven can punish him.

Rav Sternbuch (5:344): … Let me present the views of the poskim (I just want to note this information comes from a “Kuntres of Clarification” composed by Rav Avraham Horvitz who gathered together the published views). We find many of the Rishonim that permitted forcing a get when the wife claims ma’us alei. They include Rambam, Ravad, Semag, Baal HaItur, Rabbeinu Gershom, Rabbeinu Sherira Gaon, Rabbeinu Hai Gaon, Tosfos Rid, Ohr Zarua, Rif, and Rashbam. On the other hand those who prohibit forcing a get in a case of ma’us alei include Rabbeinu Tam, Ran, Rashba, Rosh, Ritva, Rav Zechariya, and Tashbatz. The Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 77) rules that because of the serverity of the issur of a married woman we do not force a get. And that furthermore according to those who prohibit physical forcing – if the get is physically forced it is possible that it produces mamzerim. Nevertheless Rabbeinu Tam who prohibits forcing found a solution. That was to decreed that it was prohibited to speak to him or to do business with him, to eat with him or drink or associate with him or visit him. Rabbeinu Tam said this doesn’t constitute kefiah (force) since he is not being beaten physically but we are merely ostracizing him. Look at the Maharik (shoresh 102). This ostracizing is called the Harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam. The Levush (E.H. 134) writes that it is possible to decree this when the wife claims ma’us alei because it is not considered kefiah (force). That is because if the husband wants to avoid giving the get – he can simply go to a different community. The Rema (E.H 154:21) agrees that beis din can decree all sorts of social isolation as long as it isn’t nidoi (cherem). The Gra agrees with the Rema and explains that since it is not a whipping and the husband is able to avoid these restraints by going to another city and thus nothing is done to him physically – it is permitted. This is also the view of the Maharshdam (E.H. 41) and the Mahari Sasson (21) and other poskim. However there are some poskim who testify that we do no longer utilize the Harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam. This is stated Mahari ben Lev (3:102) who say I haven’t seen or heard in our generation that these measures of isolation have been used. And that it is self-evident that “those who did not permit forcing - that means that they do not permit any form of ostracizing be done to the husband.” We also find in Pischei Teshuva (E. H. 154:30) who cites the Shach (Gevuras Anoshim 72) that after he cites the words of Mahari ben Lev writes - that it is best to be machmir and avoid these methods. Also the Chazon Ish (E.H. 108:12) is against the use of these decrees of social isolation and cites the Rashba who writes further that one is not to humiliate or torment the husband. Nevertheless it is clear there that the Chazon Is would agree that if these isolation techniques of Rabbeinu Tam are done as long as it doesn’t constitute nidoi – the get is valid. However, it is important to know that one should not decree these Harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam immediately when the wife claims ma’us alei. Because if that is done - since it is common that there are fights between a man and his wife – then the wife will be quick to assert ma’us alei. The result would be that beis din would apply social sanctions on the husband and this would cause a major disaster in the nature of marriage in our communities. The relevancy of these measures is only when the couple has already separated for an extended period of time and it is clear to the beis din that there is no hope for the marriage and she has suffered for an extended period of time. Therefore the beis din has ruled that it is necessary to get divorced but there is not to be kefiah (force). However the husband has refused to give a get. In such a case it is possible to rely on those sources, at least in our days, and to decree on him the Harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam. That is because this is not considered kefiah (force) and the get is valid according to everyone as I have noted – but only if it is done in the exact manner which I will detail.While it is is true that the Chazon Ish was against the use of these methods because he was concerned for the Rashba – Rav Horovitz makes a good observation. The Rivash (#127) cites the Rashba as saying, “That social sanctions can be applied as long as it isn’t nidoi (cherem) and that physical violence is not used and that he is not tormented physically.” In contrast the Chazon Ish asserts that the Rashba said the husband “can not be humiliated.” It would seem then that as long as there is only humiliation there would be no problem but only if done in the way I prescribe. In reality it is easy to be very frum and to do nothing but then that would mean these women would remain agunos forever. But being stringent leads to serious improper license in our day and it threatens to destroy the basic laws of marriage in the Jewish community. But when these social sanctions are done in the way that I will explain, they provide a path to save many woman from being agunos and yet we remain within the parameters required by halacha. But this is only if all the conditions that I present are observed. I think it will be of great benefit if this program is accepted – even though it seems that the Ashkenaz beis dins have not utilized these social isolation techniques in recent generations. However it wasn’t common in previous generations that a woman would claim ma’us alei as we find find today. Thus it really wasn’t necessary to utilize these techniques in previous generations. However today due to our many sins, those who deal with marital conflicts know well that there has been a great increase in the claim and that there many dangers that result from this. Therefore since these Harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam appear to be permitted by halacha and being strict leads to license to do improper things – we have the obligation to avoid stringencies and to observe the basic law as expressed by the rulings of the Rema and the Gra – but only if the conditions I set forth are followed – and only if great poskim agree with this. (It seems to me that there are countries where it is inappropriate to utilize the Harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam . That is because of fear that non Jews will claim that since we use social sanctions on someone who doesn’t obey our religion then they will also used social sanctions on us in business dealings and other areas and they will justify it from our behavior!).Here are the rules for how to apply social sanctions – even though it is obvious that in all rules there are exceptions which are best left up to the judgment of beis din. 1) It would appear that a man who has made his wife an aguna and has tormented her for a long time – even though there was no psak that he was obligated to divorce his wife – nevertheless he is causing her great distress and acting cruelly with her. This is not fit for a Jew to do since they are by nature merciful and kind. Therefore the beis din should notify the rabbi of his shul or the rabbi of the community to which he belongs that this man has made his wife an aguna and that even though he has no legal obligation to divorce her – nevertheless it is permitted and proper to publicize his debasement since he is tormenting a Jewish woman without cause. Therefore it is appropriate for the members of the shul to avoid him. But in the notification to the members of the shul it should not be mentioned at all that this has to do with divorce. The notice should only mention that his character is bad and because of that it is proper to ostracize him (Also the Maharshadam (71) writes that one should be machmir (strict) and not to mention the reason why he is being ostracized. He brings Mahari Sasson (28) who also concludes this). The congregants should obey their rabbi and institute social sanctions against the husband – because only because of his bad character.It would seem that it is prohibited to threaten the husband with high financial sanctions which he doesn’t really owe and he doesn’t have the ability to pay. Because if he is pressured through monetary considerations it become a get me’usa (a coerced get). However he can be threatened with the disapproval of everyone and that everyone will avoid him. Because in truth because of the wickedness and cruelty that he has shown it is correct to avoid him. Social isolation does not produce a get me’usa. The issue of divorce is not be mentioned at all and yet the whole community avoids him – even though according to the din there is no nidoi (cherem). I am certain that many husbands will have second thoughts and recognize their obligations and regret their course of action [through this procedure]. And if the husband does not want to give in to this type of pressure he is able to move far away and to continue his life. That is why this is not considered me’usa (coerced).A similar program is found in Shaarei Tziyon form the gaon of Biyalisk concerning the sale of chametz... so also here where everyone understands the real reason but it is not mentioned explicitly. All that is said is that it is appropriate to avoid him because of his conduct as I have written. With G d’s help these words should provide a great benefit to the many unfortunate woman who suffer and are tormented. The ways of our holy Torah are ways of pleasantness but nevertheless the sanctions are only permitted according to the restrictions I have stated. 2) It would seem that the beis din should not make any prohibitions at all. They should simply tell the rabbi of the shul or the rabbi of the community that they have thoroughly investigated the matter and that it is proper to socially isolate him. The local rabbi announces that since he has received notification from the beis din concerning the conduct of the husband that is proper to socially isolate him. Therefore the rabbi is requesting from all the members of the community not to have anything to do with the husband. That is the justification that the notification should give but the beis din should not publicize that there is an obligation to socially isolate him since that would make it similar to nidoi (cherem). There are some of the poskim that we mentioned that are extremely concerned about this.3) The beis din should not be hasty in arranging the social isolation because the fact is that many marriages are not good but nevertheless the couple stays married. Thus one should not make it easy to split up a couple even if they don’t have children and surely if the do have children. So therefore the beis din should weigh for a period of time and only in the special cases that it is clear to the beis din that it is impossible for the couple to live together should they precede to the program. But it is important to remember that the beis din has to be exceedingly careful not to treat this matter lightly and to be hasty in institute the social isolation. It should only be done after major efforts have been done to try to reconcile the couple and the beis din has become convinced that there is no way the marriage can be fixed. Even then the beis din should wait a period of time which they thinks is appropriate. It is only then that they institute the program of social isolation. With G d’s help if this procedure is followed the husband will eventually agree to negotiations and give the get.All of this is a proposal that in my opinion is proper to be accepted today – as an emergency measure and it will save many agunos with G d’s help. That is because the husband will not want to prolong the time that he is rejected and disgusting to the rest of the community and have attached to the wall notices with his name for shame since he is a cruel person. The Bach has already written that freeing agunos is like rebuilding one of the ruins of Jerusalem. However I am not saying that you must accept my proposal. Rather the decision as to whether this program should be implemented is give only to the great poskim. And even though I have brought the words of the Chazon Ish who is extremely strict because of the concern for a get me’usa (coerced get) and also I brought else the words of the Brisker Rav in this matter – nevertheless if done in the manner that I have suggested where there is no mention of the obligation of giving a get but only publicizing his character – there is no concern that the get is invalid. And in fact many gedolim agree to this approach and actually conduct themselves this way. Thus I have explained this proposal and I looking forward to the decision of the great poskim regarding it. G d should save us from error and this should be His Will.