Tuesday, May 13, 2008
Supreme Rabbinical Court ruling - English summary
Rebbitzen's Husband has posted an extensive English summary of the 55 page Hebrew ruling of the Rabbinical Supreme Court. From the parts I have read it seems to be an excellent job. For part I click here
Judaism as a missionary religion?
While there is heated debate within Orthodox circles regarding the standards of conversion - there are others who would accept anyone who wants to be Jewish or thinks they are Jewish. In addition they want to actively proselytize. This is an excerpt of an article in Haaretz. The director Dr. Tobin is also associated with Rabbi Vinas
==============================================
U.S. think-tank aims to infuse Jewish life with dashes of color
By Rebecca Spence, The Forward CorrespondentSAN FRANSISCO - Go to almost any Jewish conference and you'll likely find the ethnic makeup to be largely, and unsurprisingly, white.
But at a recent plenum in San Francisco, a group championing ethnic diversity in Jewish life turned that situation on its head, as scores of black, Latino and Asian Jews from around the world came together to grapple with the challenges they face gaining acceptance in the mainstream Jewish world.
The group of 80 Jewish leaders from 31 different countries - including Uganda, South Africa and Portugal - who gathered the first weekend this month for the Be'Chol Lashon International Think Tank had one clear message for the Jewish community: Open your doors to diversity. The sixth annual event, organized by Be'Chol Lashon - a Bay Area initiative dedicated to fostering diversity in Jewish life - and fittingly held at the Hotel Kabuki in the heart of San Francisco's Japantown, centered this year on questions of conversion and whether Judaism might take a more proactive role in gaining adherents.
As demographic studies in recent years have shown a shrinking American Jewish population, the organized Jewish community has poured millions of dollars into strengthening identity in young Jews. But the mainstream response to the so-called population crisis, which has resulted in a slew of identity-building projects - among them, Birthright Israel, a program that takes tens of thousands of American Jews in their teens and 20s on free trips to the Jewish state - is not the solution, according to Diane and Gary Tobin, co-founders of Be'Chol Lashon. The organization, whose name is Hebrew for "in every tongue," was established eight years ago in the wake of the Tobins' 1997 adoption of an African American boy.
Gary Tobin, a Jewish researcher who is president of San Francisco's Institute for Jewish & Community Research, contends that only through welcoming converts of all ethnicities and breaking down the barriers to conversion will the Jewish people be able to reverse the trend of dwindling population numbers. Tobin is referring not just to welcoming converts who are married to Jews, but also to reaching out to non-Jews generally.
"If we think that going to Jewish day school or trips to Israel are going to save the Jewish people, it's just silly," Tobin said. "The response of the organized Jewish community has been to circle the wagons, and what this room represents is the possibility of expansion, not constriction,? he said, referring to the conference participants.
The driving philosophy behind Be'Chol Lashon, Tobin added, is that Jews should, in fact, "be competing in the marketplace of world religion." If Jews began reaching out across color lines, the number of Jews in America alone could increase, over the next quarter of a century, to 12 million from 6 million, he said.
Monday, May 12, 2008
Due to Chief Rabbi Amar's silence - rabbis delay converts' marriages
The following appeared in the Jerusalem Post. Clink on the link for the full article.
Rabbis delay converts' marriages
Rabbis responsible for registering Jewish Israelis for marriage said Sunday they would not register converts for marriage until Sephardi Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar issues a definitive rejection of a High Rabbinical Court decision that cast doubt on the validity of thousands of conversions.
"Before I can register a convert for marriage as a full-fledged Jew, I'll have to consult with Chief Rabbi Amar," said Rabbi Ratzon Arussi, chairman of the Rabbinate's Marriage Council.
Rabbis in Ramat Gan and Jerusalem concurred with Arussi's call.
"Rabbi Amar has to voice his opinion on this issue," said Ramat Gan Chief Rabbi Ya'acov Ariel. "He is the final authority on conversions."
[...]Several days after the decision was published, Amar issued a general statement that all conversion would be recognized. But Amar did not directly address the accusations raised by Sherman against Druckman.
Rabbis want Amar to issue a clear halachic decision on the status of conversions carried out by Druckman.
Amar's spokesman said the chief rabbi intends to convene the Chief Rabbinate's governing council to discuss the issue and reach a definitive decision. But before the council can be convened new elections must be called.
[...]Friday, May 9, 2008
Eternal Jewish Family supports Supreme Rabbinical Court ruling against Rabbi Druckman's conversions
Eternal Jewish Family issued a statement strongly supporting the ruling of the Supreme Rabbincal Court against Rabbi Druckman's conversions. Click on links for full article and comments.
The International Committee on Giyur, founded by the late Rabbi Chaim Kreiswirth, Chief Rabbi of Antwerp, has issued a strong letter of support for the decision by the Rabbinical Supreme Court of the Chief Rabbinate invalidating all conversions performed since 1999 by Rabbi Chaim Drukman, the head of the Conversion Authority. The Committee, which is headed by Rabbi Nachum Eisenstein, said that only converts that “accept mitzvos at the time of giyur” may be considered halachacially converted. It noted that “even if it becomes clear that the ger did not accept mitzvos at the time of giyur and subsequently did observe mitzvos, the conversion is invalid.”
[...]
The Eternal Jewish Family (EJF) in a statement said that the large number of conversions that were recently ruled invalid by the Rabbinical Supreme Court is “further proof of the urgency of adopting universal conversion standards that are based on the opinions of major halachic authorities.” EJF is the leading international organization that has been in the forefront of promulgating universal conversion standards in intermarriage under the guidance of leading Gedolei Hatorah in the US and Israel.
[...]
The Eternal Jewish Family (EJF) in a statement said that the large number of conversions that were recently ruled invalid by the Rabbinical Supreme Court is “further proof of the urgency of adopting universal conversion standards that are based on the opinions of major halachic authorities.” EJF is the leading international organization that has been in the forefront of promulgating universal conversion standards in intermarriage under the guidance of leading Gedolei Hatorah in the US and Israel.
Thursday, May 8, 2008
Rabbi Marc Angel defends Rabbi Druckman and elucidates his agenda
We read with horror that the High Rabbinical Court of Israel has upheld a lower court decision which declared invalid all conversions performed since 1999 by Rabbi Haim Drukman, head of the Conversion Authority of Israel.
As Orthodox rabbis, we believe that this decision is motivated by political interests rather than by the search for Halachic integrity and religious truth. The outcome is morally repugnant, and is an outrage to Rabbi Drukman and his colleagues who are attempting, within the confines of Halacha, to resolve a fundamental challenge to the social and religious well-being of the Jewish State - the religious integration into the Jewish People of hundreds of thousands of Russian non-Jews living in Israel as full citizens, loyal to the State and to the People of Israel.
This decision is an abuse of rabbinic power, highly detrimental to the well-being of the Jewish people.
We affirm that all those who have converted under the aegis of R. Drukman and the Conversion Authority of Israel, are Jewish without question. To oppress them by casting doubt on their Jewish status is a sin of the first magnitude, an express violation of multiple Biblical commandments.
We urge the State of Israel, the worldwide Orthodox Rabbinate and the Jewish people at large to repudiate this decision of the High Rabbinical Court of Israel; to affirm the Jewishness of all Halachic converts; to treat all converts with the love and respect to which they are entitled according to the laws of Torah.
Rabbi Avraham Weiss and Rabbi Marc D. Angel, Co-Chairmen, International Rabbinic Fellowship
Rabbi Saul Berman, Chairman, International Rabbinic Fellowship Geirut Committee
Rabbi Shlomo Riskin, Chief Rabbi of Efrat
--
Rabbi Marc D. Angel, Founder and Director
Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals
8 West 70th Street
New York, NY 10023
212 362 4764
Wednesday, May 7, 2008
Significant objections to Rabbi Druckman's conversions are not new
One gets the impression reading many of the comments about the current conversion crisis - that it is simply politics - with Rabbi Druckman the victim because he is not chareidi.
Unfortunately this is not the case. There have been serious objections to Rabbi Druckman's conversions for many years - on the basis of halachic concerns as well as legal ones.
De'ah veDibur (a.k.a Yated) reported the following in 2006
De'ah veDibur reported the following in 2007
De'ah veDibur reported the following in 2000
De'ah veDibur reported the following in 1999
Jonathan Rosenblum Yated 2006
Haaretz 2004 complained he wasn't being allowed to liberalize conversion
Tuesday, May 6, 2008
RCA condemns psak of Supreme Rabbinical Court invalidating Rabbi Druckman's conversions
[The following was just posted on the RCA web site.]
May 6, 2008 -- Leviticus 19:33 : "You (plural) shall not oppress the convert in your land."
Commentary of the Netziv: "The plural form of the verse teaches us that a third party who sees the oppression of a convert and does not protest is also guilty of oppression."
The Rabbinical Council of America, having taken note of the recent ruling of the Bet Din Elyon (Rabbinic Court of Appeals) of Israel, nullifying certain conversions performed by the State Conversion Authority led by Rabbi Chaim Druckman, has today issued the following statement:
Having reviewed the ruling of the Bet Din Elyon in detail, and being fully mindful of the respect due the rulings of duly constituted rabbinical courts in their respective jurisdictions, the RCA finds it necessary to state for the record that in our view the ruling itself, as well as the language and tone thereof, are entirely beyond the pale of acceptable halachic practice, violate numerous Torah laws regarding converts and their families, create a massive desecration of God's name, insult outstanding rabbinic leaders and halachic scholars in Israel, and are a reprehensible cause of widespread conflict and animosity within the Jewish people in Israel and beyond. The RCA is appalled that such a ruling has been issued by that court.
We have been assured by Israel's Chief Rabbi Rav Shlomo Moshe Amar, who is also the President of the Rabbinical Courts System of Israel, that in releasing this ruling the court in question directly countermanded his instructions and policies. He has confirmed that the ruling has no legal standing at this time. We commend Rav Amar for his positive role in this matter since its very inception in the Ashdod regional court.
We add our rabbinic voice to those of others who have called for a thorough review and repudiation of the actions of a select few of the Bet Din Elyon, who in this ruling as in other previous instances, have sought to undermine the Conversion Authority.
For this reason, and others, it is more important than ever that the Conversion Authority be strengthened in its important work in bringing about halachicly proper conversions to our faith and to the Jewish people.
Given the very public nature of the challenge posed by the ruling in question, we call on the Chief Rabbis of Israel to reaffirm their support of the Conversion Authority and its leadership in clear and unambiguous terms at the earliest possible time. Until that will happen, each passing day will cause reprehensible anguish to halachic converts, irreparable harm to the fabric of the Jewish people, and a considerable debasement of the good name of Torah, halachah, and tradition.
May 6, 2008 -- Leviticus 19:33 : "You (plural) shall not oppress the convert in your land."
Commentary of the Netziv: "The plural form of the verse teaches us that a third party who sees the oppression of a convert and does not protest is also guilty of oppression."
The Rabbinical Council of America, having taken note of the recent ruling of the Bet Din Elyon (Rabbinic Court of Appeals) of Israel, nullifying certain conversions performed by the State Conversion Authority led by Rabbi Chaim Druckman, has today issued the following statement:
Having reviewed the ruling of the Bet Din Elyon in detail, and being fully mindful of the respect due the rulings of duly constituted rabbinical courts in their respective jurisdictions, the RCA finds it necessary to state for the record that in our view the ruling itself, as well as the language and tone thereof, are entirely beyond the pale of acceptable halachic practice, violate numerous Torah laws regarding converts and their families, create a massive desecration of God's name, insult outstanding rabbinic leaders and halachic scholars in Israel, and are a reprehensible cause of widespread conflict and animosity within the Jewish people in Israel and beyond. The RCA is appalled that such a ruling has been issued by that court.
We have been assured by Israel's Chief Rabbi Rav Shlomo Moshe Amar, who is also the President of the Rabbinical Courts System of Israel, that in releasing this ruling the court in question directly countermanded his instructions and policies. He has confirmed that the ruling has no legal standing at this time. We commend Rav Amar for his positive role in this matter since its very inception in the Ashdod regional court.
We add our rabbinic voice to those of others who have called for a thorough review and repudiation of the actions of a select few of the Bet Din Elyon, who in this ruling as in other previous instances, have sought to undermine the Conversion Authority.
For this reason, and others, it is more important than ever that the Conversion Authority be strengthened in its important work in bringing about halachicly proper conversions to our faith and to the Jewish people.
Given the very public nature of the challenge posed by the ruling in question, we call on the Chief Rabbis of Israel to reaffirm their support of the Conversion Authority and its leadership in clear and unambiguous terms at the earliest possible time. Until that will happen, each passing day will cause reprehensible anguish to halachic converts, irreparable harm to the fabric of the Jewish people, and a considerable debasement of the good name of Torah, halachah, and tradition.
The controversy is about values - not about being part of the modern society per se
Itamar Ross wrote:
For once, I agree with your blog. Though it is not just a clash between charedim and Zionists per se, but also between charedim and modern society in general.
I quote the following from the excellent blog of Rabbi Prof. Jeffrey Woolf of Bar-Ilan University, a talmid of Rav Soloveitchik zt"l (http://myobiterdicta.blogspot.com/):
=======================
I am not sure what there is to agree or disagree with my blog. Since I am mainly trying to present and clarify issues. I don't claim that I know THE answer. If there are legitimate viewpoints that you think I have left out - feel free to present them. The impetus for this blog came because I could not get a simple answer from EJF as to what the halachic basis of their activies is.
In addition it is not a clash between chareidim and modern society per se. As if somehow the chareidim are primitives who would rather remain in their caves. This is a clash of values. Zionism versus the traditional understanding of conversion. It doesn't help the situation to question the integrity and competence of chareidi gedolim.
I found the comments of Prof. Woolf to be rather problematic and intemperate - at least on this issue. I generally find him to be very erudite and balanced on other issues. In fact I deleted his comments which occurred in the Jerusalem Post article because aside from expressing rage and moral indignation they didn't express much insight into what is actually going on. The rest of the JPost article was right on the money.
Instead of heaping scorn on the many rabbis who disagree with Rabbi Druckman and his concept of gerus - it would be more valuable to acknowledge that there are in fact strongly held and incompatible fundamental differences in values between the Religious Zionists and the Chareidi world.
The Balkanization of the religious groups might be the obvious solution to you but it would spell the end of the concept of one Jewish people - henceforth it would be multiple Jewish peoples.
Israel is too small and the world is too interconnected for your solution to be viable.
For once, I agree with your blog. Though it is not just a clash between charedim and Zionists per se, but also between charedim and modern society in general.
I quote the following from the excellent blog of Rabbi Prof. Jeffrey Woolf of Bar-Ilan University, a talmid of Rav Soloveitchik zt"l (http://myobiterdicta.blogspot.com/):
=======================
I am not sure what there is to agree or disagree with my blog. Since I am mainly trying to present and clarify issues. I don't claim that I know THE answer. If there are legitimate viewpoints that you think I have left out - feel free to present them. The impetus for this blog came because I could not get a simple answer from EJF as to what the halachic basis of their activies is.
In addition it is not a clash between chareidim and modern society per se. As if somehow the chareidim are primitives who would rather remain in their caves. This is a clash of values. Zionism versus the traditional understanding of conversion. It doesn't help the situation to question the integrity and competence of chareidi gedolim.
I found the comments of Prof. Woolf to be rather problematic and intemperate - at least on this issue. I generally find him to be very erudite and balanced on other issues. In fact I deleted his comments which occurred in the Jerusalem Post article because aside from expressing rage and moral indignation they didn't express much insight into what is actually going on. The rest of the JPost article was right on the money.
Instead of heaping scorn on the many rabbis who disagree with Rabbi Druckman and his concept of gerus - it would be more valuable to acknowledge that there are in fact strongly held and incompatible fundamental differences in values between the Religious Zionists and the Chareidi world.
The Balkanization of the religious groups might be the obvious solution to you but it would spell the end of the concept of one Jewish people - henceforth it would be multiple Jewish peoples.
Israel is too small and the world is too interconnected for your solution to be viable.
Monday, May 5, 2008
A more realistic understanding of the conversion crisis
Bright Eyes responds to RaP:
RaP makes a very interesting case.
The Supreme Rabbinical Court in Israel has concluded in what is certainly a thoroughly analyzed decision (50 pages worth) that Rabbi Druckman's conversions were performed illegally.
RaP says that if we do not accept these illegal conversions, then bad physical things will likely happen to the Jewish people (such as Civil War), and specifically to the people who are responsible for making and supporting these rulings, "the life you save, may be your own."
Put another way, the goal of RaPs argument is to cause Jews to accept illegal conversions (aka goyim) for the sake of their own protection.
This way of thinking is the basis of strong arm organized crime globally. This is the whole logic behind "protection money."
I am in the U.S. and have intentionally stayed ignorant of Israeli politics for my entire adult life because I have observed that the more one knows about it, the more one argues and gets upset.
However, one cannot avoid hearing the well informed argue, and from what I gather Bedatz, the Rabbanut, and the RCA can all be described as opposite corners of a triangle, and that neither Bedatz nor the Rabbanut accept the other as an authority.
So, the notion that the Supreme Religious Court's ruling of last week was somehow orchestrated by people at Bedatz seems absurd.
Also, I don't think that Rabbi Eidensohn posted the Syrian Takana in order to endorse it. Throughout these last few months, Rabbi Eidensohn has posted various aspects to the question of how conversion is viewed and handled and opened the topic to discussion. The Syrian Takana was one of many viewpoints posted.
There were so many viewpoints presented, it is clearly impossible for any one human being to embrace them all.
RaPs general thrust seems to be that of the Religious Humanist, which is that popular sentiment should be the decisor of religious law and practice.
While he makes a nice defense of Rabbi Druckman as a "mainstream" Rabbi, this does not exempt Rabbi Druckman from needing to follow Halacha. If a court comprised of properly competent judges has determined that his Conversion proceedings have not followed the law, Rabbi Druckman's public standing and reputation is not a factor in the difference between legal and illegal.
In the Christian world, senior clergy, such as the Pope, are "infallible" and above reproach. Not so in Judaism.
It alarms me to see RaP judging entire segments of the Jewish people using Christian standards of "good and evil."
He has made it quite clear that anyone who he sees as not being open enough, such as the "Haredim", Syrians, and various Hasidic groups, are all defined as bad because of this characteristic. He also labels them as such based on false information.
Again and again he accuses the Syrians in particular of not accepting converts even though he is repeatedly presented evidence that they do indeed accepts genuine converts.
RaP makes it appear as though Rabbi Eidensohn and Bedatz (whose Rabbonim are really just easily controlled puppets of Rabbi Eidensohn) has done a bad thing by not publicizing the list of Rabbis who received private mail from Bedatz. In other words, because Rabbi Eidensohn would not smear many Rabbis who have done nothing wrong (remember, the letters spoke as warnings against future behavior, and were not judgments against past behavior), he is one of the bad guys!
His argument makes it clear that he considers nobody to be a religious authority. He likes the RCA and says they would never accept Bedatz's standards, yet ignores the fact that the RCA has already accepted those standards by agreeing to the newly published standards of the Rabbanut (who in this case appears to be in agreement with Bedatz).
Regarding the RCA, he says that they "would not accept the standards of the BADATZ and it would drive a wedge with the American communities where the real problems of intermarriages and fuzzy conversions exists." In other words, he feels that the RCA will not accept any ruling that disqualifies intermarriages and "fuzzy" conversions. If I were an RCA Rabbi, I would be highly offended!
People who support Halacha and disqualify fraudulent conversions are now like Nazi's to him! That's quite a viewpoint. Since when is "breach of contract" a racial issue? All Jewish communities accept converts. RaP would have us believe otherwise.
RaP has made it clear that in his view what Judiasm today really needs is a moratorium on practicing and enforcing Jewish law.
Ethereal concepts such as subjective individual ideas of right and wrong for him take precedence over Halacha.
I have spent many years fighting missionaries from other religions. They try to cause ordinary Jews to think like RaP does. I have heard no fewer than ten known missionaries disguised as Orthodox Rabbis say "You can wear the black coat and grow a big beard, but if you don't have love in your heart you aren't practicing Judaism" in order to cause ordinary people to disregard everything that legitimate religious authorities rule on. He's saying those same words in a different way. Instead of discussion/debating the Halachic sources and logic of decisions which make him uncomfortable, he just erases the credibility of everything with broad brushstrokes. Somehow he speaks for all Mizrachim, Hassidim, Ashkenazim, Sephardim etc....are each of us really just cookie-cutter clones of other who share our religious and culinary culture as RaPs would have us believe? I don't think so. I know Ashenazi Rabbis who say that the Syrian Takana is the only way to save the Jewish people, and I know Syrians who say the Takana is the most repulsive thing any Jewish group has ever done.
We're all individuals.
From my point of view, RaP is preaching rather than debating, and his message is dangerous.
RaP makes a very interesting case.
The Supreme Rabbinical Court in Israel has concluded in what is certainly a thoroughly analyzed decision (50 pages worth) that Rabbi Druckman's conversions were performed illegally.
RaP says that if we do not accept these illegal conversions, then bad physical things will likely happen to the Jewish people (such as Civil War), and specifically to the people who are responsible for making and supporting these rulings, "the life you save, may be your own."
Put another way, the goal of RaPs argument is to cause Jews to accept illegal conversions (aka goyim) for the sake of their own protection.
This way of thinking is the basis of strong arm organized crime globally. This is the whole logic behind "protection money."
I am in the U.S. and have intentionally stayed ignorant of Israeli politics for my entire adult life because I have observed that the more one knows about it, the more one argues and gets upset.
However, one cannot avoid hearing the well informed argue, and from what I gather Bedatz, the Rabbanut, and the RCA can all be described as opposite corners of a triangle, and that neither Bedatz nor the Rabbanut accept the other as an authority.
So, the notion that the Supreme Religious Court's ruling of last week was somehow orchestrated by people at Bedatz seems absurd.
Also, I don't think that Rabbi Eidensohn posted the Syrian Takana in order to endorse it. Throughout these last few months, Rabbi Eidensohn has posted various aspects to the question of how conversion is viewed and handled and opened the topic to discussion. The Syrian Takana was one of many viewpoints posted.
There were so many viewpoints presented, it is clearly impossible for any one human being to embrace them all.
RaPs general thrust seems to be that of the Religious Humanist, which is that popular sentiment should be the decisor of religious law and practice.
While he makes a nice defense of Rabbi Druckman as a "mainstream" Rabbi, this does not exempt Rabbi Druckman from needing to follow Halacha. If a court comprised of properly competent judges has determined that his Conversion proceedings have not followed the law, Rabbi Druckman's public standing and reputation is not a factor in the difference between legal and illegal.
In the Christian world, senior clergy, such as the Pope, are "infallible" and above reproach. Not so in Judaism.
It alarms me to see RaP judging entire segments of the Jewish people using Christian standards of "good and evil."
He has made it quite clear that anyone who he sees as not being open enough, such as the "Haredim", Syrians, and various Hasidic groups, are all defined as bad because of this characteristic. He also labels them as such based on false information.
Again and again he accuses the Syrians in particular of not accepting converts even though he is repeatedly presented evidence that they do indeed accepts genuine converts.
RaP makes it appear as though Rabbi Eidensohn and Bedatz (whose Rabbonim are really just easily controlled puppets of Rabbi Eidensohn) has done a bad thing by not publicizing the list of Rabbis who received private mail from Bedatz. In other words, because Rabbi Eidensohn would not smear many Rabbis who have done nothing wrong (remember, the letters spoke as warnings against future behavior, and were not judgments against past behavior), he is one of the bad guys!
His argument makes it clear that he considers nobody to be a religious authority. He likes the RCA and says they would never accept Bedatz's standards, yet ignores the fact that the RCA has already accepted those standards by agreeing to the newly published standards of the Rabbanut (who in this case appears to be in agreement with Bedatz).
Regarding the RCA, he says that they "would not accept the standards of the BADATZ and it would drive a wedge with the American communities where the real problems of intermarriages and fuzzy conversions exists." In other words, he feels that the RCA will not accept any ruling that disqualifies intermarriages and "fuzzy" conversions. If I were an RCA Rabbi, I would be highly offended!
People who support Halacha and disqualify fraudulent conversions are now like Nazi's to him! That's quite a viewpoint. Since when is "breach of contract" a racial issue? All Jewish communities accept converts. RaP would have us believe otherwise.
RaP has made it clear that in his view what Judiasm today really needs is a moratorium on practicing and enforcing Jewish law.
Ethereal concepts such as subjective individual ideas of right and wrong for him take precedence over Halacha.
I have spent many years fighting missionaries from other religions. They try to cause ordinary Jews to think like RaP does. I have heard no fewer than ten known missionaries disguised as Orthodox Rabbis say "You can wear the black coat and grow a big beard, but if you don't have love in your heart you aren't practicing Judaism" in order to cause ordinary people to disregard everything that legitimate religious authorities rule on. He's saying those same words in a different way. Instead of discussion/debating the Halachic sources and logic of decisions which make him uncomfortable, he just erases the credibility of everything with broad brushstrokes. Somehow he speaks for all Mizrachim, Hassidim, Ashkenazim, Sephardim etc....are each of us really just cookie-cutter clones of other who share our religious and culinary culture as RaPs would have us believe? I don't think so. I know Ashenazi Rabbis who say that the Syrian Takana is the only way to save the Jewish people, and I know Syrians who say the Takana is the most repulsive thing any Jewish group has ever done.
We're all individuals.
From my point of view, RaP is preaching rather than debating, and his message is dangerous.
Sunday, May 4, 2008
"Recipients and Publicity's" fantasy about the awesome power and ambition of the Bedatz
I am making this a post for two reason 1) I am really impressed with Recipients and Publicity's combination of solid knowledge with his leaps of fantasy which sometimes are on target but of late are really off. 2) It is an interesting fantasy which shows an outsiders' view - you just don't realize how inefficient and confused Chareidi Jewish organizations are.
To give a simple example, Rav Sternbuch was totally unaware of the rulings of the Supreme Rabbinic Court on Thursday - until I showed him the printout of the Jerusalem Post's article - Friday afternoon.
Regarding your other concern - knowing to whom the Bedatz sent their condemnation of EJF. I was told that they attempted to send it to all the rabbis that attended the Washington conference in Novemer 2007. Perhaps now that your question is answered you can change your name to something that is easier to type.
I will attempt to answer some of your other assertions - when I recover from the hysteria brought about by your post. BTW if you are ever in Har Nof I would be glad to introduce you the the Bedatz elite commando team that is "plotting" to take over the Jewish world. Gee I thought that Rabbi Tropper was paranoid!
===========================
Recipients and Publicity responds:
To give a simple example, Rav Sternbuch was totally unaware of the rulings of the Supreme Rabbinic Court on Thursday - until I showed him the printout of the Jerusalem Post's article - Friday afternoon.
Regarding your other concern - knowing to whom the Bedatz sent their condemnation of EJF. I was told that they attempted to send it to all the rabbis that attended the Washington conference in Novemer 2007. Perhaps now that your question is answered you can change your name to something that is easier to type.
I will attempt to answer some of your other assertions - when I recover from the hysteria brought about by your post. BTW if you are ever in Har Nof I would be glad to introduce you the the Bedatz elite commando team that is "plotting" to take over the Jewish world. Gee I thought that Rabbi Tropper was paranoid!
===========================
Recipients and Publicity responds:
Rabbi Eidensohn says: "Your comments seem increasing detached from reality. You are creating a conspiracy theory - which to put it politely is baloney."
Really now? So how do you explain the fact that in your Friday, May 2, 2008 post of "Thousands of conversions questioned by Supreme Rabbnical Court in Israel" YOU also see fit to place in the lead "...See also previous post of Rav Sternbuch's views" with a link to your earlier post of Tuesday, February 12, 2008: "HaRav Sternbuch,shlita - Proposed conversion process threatens our existence!" with a full copy of his original letter with you as his AUTHORIZED spokseman as well as his eyes-and-ears on the Internet did (quite progressive of him in this regard as the BADATZ is against the use of the Internet except for "Parnosa"...another shmues, not for now)
Add that to Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's PUBLIC actions agaisnt Rav Tropper's proselytizing and against EJF's actvitivies (which I personally have great difficulty with, but my personal views do not matter since I am not a posek, just a Blogger like you) -- and which inspired me to take the ID on your Daas Torah of "Recipients and Publicity" because you had reported that the BADATZ had sent out official letters to various Batei Din that had indicated they would align with EJF and asking them to withdraw. It's why I had asked in my first posting, was it possible to obtain the names of all the "Recipients" of that BADATZ's letter and then was it possible to have some "Publicity" for it?! we still haven't gotten the full list from you yet, why? Is it a secret?
So that if you add up what has been happening the last few months in the world of Orthodox and Haredi rabbinical orginizations or even just by monitering your Blog and reading some of the fascinating posts and discussions on it, and having in mind that you are not just anyone but you are an authority in your own right in the writings of Rav Moshe Feinstein ztk"l and you have close personal contact with Rav Shternbuch shlit"a and with the workings of the holy BADATZ in Yerushalayim, and given Rav Shterbuch attitude and letters about Rav Tropper, about Rav Druckman and with Rav Shternbuch's concern about this entire subject of wholesale geirus and the standards to be applied, or shall we say not being applied to his satisfaction, and the goings on back and forth between Rav Amar and the RCA and how Rav Shternbuch is opposed to Rav Amar's, Rav Druchman's and others' present approach to dealing with geirus in the Israeli Chief Rabbinate who are essentially going lekula and being more lenient than he would be as he IS known to be a famous machmir with a much stricter/Brisker outlook. And with the dredging up of this whole obscure matter of how the Syrian community had dealt with the problem of conversions FOR THEMSELVES (but as Sefradim, Rav Shterbuch can use it as a nice foil against the Sefardi Rav Amar and the "Sefardi Rabbonim" he openly berates in his letter you published) so that if you take in the picture as you hav been reporting it and and as we have been discussing it and as you have been FRAMING It, it seems very clear to ME (not as a "Rov or Posek", but as a serious student of Jewish affairs and Jewish life) that what is REALLY happening behind the scenes and not so behind the scenes is that the groundwork is being laid by some groups in Yerushalayim focused around the BADATZ and led by Rav Shternbuch shlit"a is aiming to enact for the entire Charedi world what the Syrian's enacted forthmesslves in 1935.
And I tender to you, as a long-time student and observer of Jewish life and living that the if Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ make such a move they will lose and will fall flat on their faces for a number of reasons, and I will try to cite some:
a) They will be preaching to the converted. Those Charedim, like Satmar and almost all Chasidic groups, except for Chabad and Breslov who are committed to Kiruv, already practice exclusion of outsiders to gerus as far as is humanly possible. So such a Charedi-wide Takana against gerim will just pander to their self-satisfaction and not get to the root of the problem which lies outside their kehilas.
b) The Israeli estbalishment, with the Rabbanut will just use such a move to further isolate and marginalize the Charedim and the people who follow the BADATZ as "extremsist/s" with whom no (halachik) business or solutions can ever be found. Jusr like The BADATZ is opposed to the modern State of Israel and the state in turn looks at them like anachronistic jokes, it would just add to worsen that chronic situation and mindset.
c) The RCA in America and most moderate Haredim in America and the West would not accept the standards of the BADATZ and it would drive a wedge with the American communities where the real problems of intermarriages and fuzzy conversions exists. That is why, as just one example, dealing with EJF efforts and Rabbi Tropper's actvities have taken on so much importance in our times. It would split Charedim from each other, the "moderates" would feel even more split off from the "extremists" and would drive Charedim in America further into literal ghettos of isolation, which many already practice but it would make it tough on many others and they would resent it and their voices will be heard because American Jews, even Haredi ones are a free spirited, independent and outpoken, if respectful, lot.
d) It could never be enforced because the Mizrachi will continue to do what they want in Israel and the RCA in Amercia will do what they want and the BADATZ will just be left screaming on the sideleines and they will come off looking like they have gotten into deeper hot water than they can tolerate let alone swim in.
e) Not just secular Jews but Orthodox Jews will come to RIGHFULLY hate the Haredim even more for enacting Nuremburg-Nazi-type Race laws, when one of the greatest reponses against false accusations that Judaism is racist is the fact that on the contrary Judaism is NOT racist because it accepts converts from any race faith or creed provded the convert is genuine. There is a famous quote from Rav Yaakov Kamenetezky ztk"l that the arguments that Judaism is racist like the Nazis could chas vesholom be "proven" true were it not for the fact that the BIGGEST disporoof against that argument is that Judaism, unlike Nazism, accepts converts, even from nations that are or were its enemies! By enacting a Syrian-like Takana for all of Charedi Judentum, the BADATZ would be digging a big whole for all Charedim and indeed all Jews, to be buried in that would validate the worst claims of the antisemites, playing into the hands of all sonei Yisreol the media would have a field day painting Jews as confirmed racist and proto-Nazis once and for all and that would be a world-class tragedy.
f) It would be ARROGANT!!! It would in effect mean that the BADATZ is taking upon itself the job and role of the Sanhedrin that can only be established with the arrival of the Mashiach. What the Syrian's did with their Takana also goes against this. How dare any Kehiilla, no matter how self-righteous take upon itself what can only be done in Yemos HaMashiach when Klal Yisroel will no longer be mekabel geirim? As I have said, sure, make the acceptance standards for geirus tough, make them very very tough, make them even EXTREMELY tough, but never let the door be bolted tightly shut so that noone can come through to be megayer because that is something that is still possible until such time as ALL of Klal Yisrael rabbonim can agree and when all the robbonim agree maybe that will be a sign that Mashiach is around the corner.
g) It does no good that Rav Shternbuch belittles Rav Druckman and Rav Amar or others like them. Rav Druckman and Rav Amar are not small-time Kiruv rabbis from America who have funny ideas. They are essentially mainstream rabbis for their followers. Not everyone is Charedi and not everyone will be or needs to be.
h) It will be a terrible case of "kefiya datit" (religious coercion) and a huge Chilul H-shem and may result in onforseen consequences. For example, if Charedim are going to pasul all gerim of the rabbanut then in a time of crisis, as in a terror attack or war situation, chas vesholom, someone in a position of power in the Israeli security forces may allow the abandonment of Charedi Jews under fire when lives are at stake. There are clear considerations of pikuach nefesh and dinei nefashos here that cannot be igmored in the Israeli context that are above and beyond questions of valid and invalid conversions. Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's descendant are not going to marry geirim or people who come from geirim because the natural suspicioun, exclusion and paranoia of outsiders is strong strong in the heearland of ASHKENAZI Charedim that they will not really face the problems. It is more marginal people that this debate concerns, and the BADATZ needs to consider if in a quest to keep all gerim out by steam-rollering over Rav Amar, Druckman, the RCA, the Rabbanut etc, they are not in the process also writing some "warrants" that will backfire on them when THEIR day of reckoning should ever come, chas vesholom, so that this is all quite literally a matter of life and death and not just an academic discussion about gerim.
i) There are SIMPLER solutions! At least the Syrians kept the matter to themselves. That was logical. But now, as you drag the Syrian Takana as a kind of "blueprint" of what can be done on a broader scale (and the BADATZ in Yerushalyim is dealing with matters on a broader scale per force) then it becomes an entirely different matter. Sure, if Satmar wants to make a Takana for itself fine, let it do so (if the Aron and Zalman factions can agree that is). If the Lubavitchers want to have their "mivtzoyim" that is their's to do. If Mizrachistim want to have "Hesder" that is their business. If Belzers want to build a huge shull in Yerushalayim and serve their Rebbe faithfully and listen to his dictates, then fine let them do it. If Brisk does not want money from Israel but wants if only from American gevirim that is their business. But if one groups wants to get up and say that THEIR "derech" or "pesak" or "mehalech" or "Takana" should become the new "law of the land" like a new "Shulchan Oruch" it would be a total disaster and could perhaps even forseeably lead to violent conflict chas vesholom (yes, it's called civil war and it could happen chas vesholom.)
j) There is so much Ahavas Yisroel lacking that it is frightening. People are viewing each other as enemies. One group of frum Jews hates and fights the other as in the times of the Bayis Sheni there is so much Sinas Chinom. And one should take a lesson from the Tanaim that when they wanted someone to be metaken the "lamalshinim" segment in the shemoneh esrei when THEY wanted to ADD an extra brocha, the 19th, the Chazal turned to (from Wikisource):"the blessing of V'lamalshinim (Informers) was added much later, during a period in which the Jewish people experienced terrible persecution as a result of these slanderous informers. The task of composing the text for this blessing was delegated to the Tanna Shmuel haKatan, because he was well known as one who exemplified the idiom (Proverbs 24:19) "At the fall of your enemy, do not rejoice, and in his stumbling do not let your heart be gleeful"."
So as I keep saying, when so many Charedim trumpet the values of Kiruv and Chinuch, begging people to give money to Lev LeAchim and Chinuch Atzmai, to so many organizations that claim to be reaching out to and helping the non-frum, this other darker war, with a "no hostages taken" approach, is the opposite of that, and often with the same people in Israel who ask for bundles of money to do "kiruv" also fueling the flames of war against those who need to be mekareavd and, yes, sometimes even megayerd (because there is quite often no other way around it, and each situation is unique, there cannot be mass solution to Yiddishe problems) and let the ones who wish "to go to war", the lurking kanoyim, baalei machlokes and frumaks, take stock of what they are about to unleash and what it may cause them in the long run.
As the saying goes, "the life you save, may be your own."
Really now? So how do you explain the fact that in your Friday, May 2, 2008 post of "Thousands of conversions questioned by Supreme Rabbnical Court in Israel" YOU also see fit to place in the lead "...See also previous post of Rav Sternbuch's views" with a link to your earlier post of Tuesday, February 12, 2008: "HaRav Sternbuch,shlita - Proposed conversion process threatens our existence!" with a full copy of his original letter with you as his AUTHORIZED spokseman as well as his eyes-and-ears on the Internet did (quite progressive of him in this regard as the BADATZ is against the use of the Internet except for "Parnosa"...another shmues, not for now)
Add that to Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's PUBLIC actions agaisnt Rav Tropper's proselytizing and against EJF's actvitivies (which I personally have great difficulty with, but my personal views do not matter since I am not a posek, just a Blogger like you) -- and which inspired me to take the ID on your Daas Torah of "Recipients and Publicity" because you had reported that the BADATZ had sent out official letters to various Batei Din that had indicated they would align with EJF and asking them to withdraw. It's why I had asked in my first posting, was it possible to obtain the names of all the "Recipients" of that BADATZ's letter and then was it possible to have some "Publicity" for it?! we still haven't gotten the full list from you yet, why? Is it a secret?
So that if you add up what has been happening the last few months in the world of Orthodox and Haredi rabbinical orginizations or even just by monitering your Blog and reading some of the fascinating posts and discussions on it, and having in mind that you are not just anyone but you are an authority in your own right in the writings of Rav Moshe Feinstein ztk"l and you have close personal contact with Rav Shternbuch shlit"a and with the workings of the holy BADATZ in Yerushalayim, and given Rav Shterbuch attitude and letters about Rav Tropper, about Rav Druckman and with Rav Shternbuch's concern about this entire subject of wholesale geirus and the standards to be applied, or shall we say not being applied to his satisfaction, and the goings on back and forth between Rav Amar and the RCA and how Rav Shternbuch is opposed to Rav Amar's, Rav Druchman's and others' present approach to dealing with geirus in the Israeli Chief Rabbinate who are essentially going lekula and being more lenient than he would be as he IS known to be a famous machmir with a much stricter/Brisker outlook. And with the dredging up of this whole obscure matter of how the Syrian community had dealt with the problem of conversions FOR THEMSELVES (but as Sefradim, Rav Shterbuch can use it as a nice foil against the Sefardi Rav Amar and the "Sefardi Rabbonim" he openly berates in his letter you published) so that if you take in the picture as you hav been reporting it and and as we have been discussing it and as you have been FRAMING It, it seems very clear to ME (not as a "Rov or Posek", but as a serious student of Jewish affairs and Jewish life) that what is REALLY happening behind the scenes and not so behind the scenes is that the groundwork is being laid by some groups in Yerushalayim focused around the BADATZ and led by Rav Shternbuch shlit"a is aiming to enact for the entire Charedi world what the Syrian's enacted forthmesslves in 1935.
And I tender to you, as a long-time student and observer of Jewish life and living that the if Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ make such a move they will lose and will fall flat on their faces for a number of reasons, and I will try to cite some:
a) They will be preaching to the converted. Those Charedim, like Satmar and almost all Chasidic groups, except for Chabad and Breslov who are committed to Kiruv, already practice exclusion of outsiders to gerus as far as is humanly possible. So such a Charedi-wide Takana against gerim will just pander to their self-satisfaction and not get to the root of the problem which lies outside their kehilas.
b) The Israeli estbalishment, with the Rabbanut will just use such a move to further isolate and marginalize the Charedim and the people who follow the BADATZ as "extremsist/s" with whom no (halachik) business or solutions can ever be found. Jusr like The BADATZ is opposed to the modern State of Israel and the state in turn looks at them like anachronistic jokes, it would just add to worsen that chronic situation and mindset.
c) The RCA in America and most moderate Haredim in America and the West would not accept the standards of the BADATZ and it would drive a wedge with the American communities where the real problems of intermarriages and fuzzy conversions exists. That is why, as just one example, dealing with EJF efforts and Rabbi Tropper's actvities have taken on so much importance in our times. It would split Charedim from each other, the "moderates" would feel even more split off from the "extremists" and would drive Charedim in America further into literal ghettos of isolation, which many already practice but it would make it tough on many others and they would resent it and their voices will be heard because American Jews, even Haredi ones are a free spirited, independent and outpoken, if respectful, lot.
d) It could never be enforced because the Mizrachi will continue to do what they want in Israel and the RCA in Amercia will do what they want and the BADATZ will just be left screaming on the sideleines and they will come off looking like they have gotten into deeper hot water than they can tolerate let alone swim in.
e) Not just secular Jews but Orthodox Jews will come to RIGHFULLY hate the Haredim even more for enacting Nuremburg-Nazi-type Race laws, when one of the greatest reponses against false accusations that Judaism is racist is the fact that on the contrary Judaism is NOT racist because it accepts converts from any race faith or creed provded the convert is genuine. There is a famous quote from Rav Yaakov Kamenetezky ztk"l that the arguments that Judaism is racist like the Nazis could chas vesholom be "proven" true were it not for the fact that the BIGGEST disporoof against that argument is that Judaism, unlike Nazism, accepts converts, even from nations that are or were its enemies! By enacting a Syrian-like Takana for all of Charedi Judentum, the BADATZ would be digging a big whole for all Charedim and indeed all Jews, to be buried in that would validate the worst claims of the antisemites, playing into the hands of all sonei Yisreol the media would have a field day painting Jews as confirmed racist and proto-Nazis once and for all and that would be a world-class tragedy.
f) It would be ARROGANT!!! It would in effect mean that the BADATZ is taking upon itself the job and role of the Sanhedrin that can only be established with the arrival of the Mashiach. What the Syrian's did with their Takana also goes against this. How dare any Kehiilla, no matter how self-righteous take upon itself what can only be done in Yemos HaMashiach when Klal Yisroel will no longer be mekabel geirim? As I have said, sure, make the acceptance standards for geirus tough, make them very very tough, make them even EXTREMELY tough, but never let the door be bolted tightly shut so that noone can come through to be megayer because that is something that is still possible until such time as ALL of Klal Yisrael rabbonim can agree and when all the robbonim agree maybe that will be a sign that Mashiach is around the corner.
g) It does no good that Rav Shternbuch belittles Rav Druckman and Rav Amar or others like them. Rav Druckman and Rav Amar are not small-time Kiruv rabbis from America who have funny ideas. They are essentially mainstream rabbis for their followers. Not everyone is Charedi and not everyone will be or needs to be.
h) It will be a terrible case of "kefiya datit" (religious coercion) and a huge Chilul H-shem and may result in onforseen consequences. For example, if Charedim are going to pasul all gerim of the rabbanut then in a time of crisis, as in a terror attack or war situation, chas vesholom, someone in a position of power in the Israeli security forces may allow the abandonment of Charedi Jews under fire when lives are at stake. There are clear considerations of pikuach nefesh and dinei nefashos here that cannot be igmored in the Israeli context that are above and beyond questions of valid and invalid conversions. Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's descendant are not going to marry geirim or people who come from geirim because the natural suspicioun, exclusion and paranoia of outsiders is strong strong in the heearland of ASHKENAZI Charedim that they will not really face the problems. It is more marginal people that this debate concerns, and the BADATZ needs to consider if in a quest to keep all gerim out by steam-rollering over Rav Amar, Druckman, the RCA, the Rabbanut etc, they are not in the process also writing some "warrants" that will backfire on them when THEIR day of reckoning should ever come, chas vesholom, so that this is all quite literally a matter of life and death and not just an academic discussion about gerim.
i) There are SIMPLER solutions! At least the Syrians kept the matter to themselves. That was logical. But now, as you drag the Syrian Takana as a kind of "blueprint" of what can be done on a broader scale (and the BADATZ in Yerushalyim is dealing with matters on a broader scale per force) then it becomes an entirely different matter. Sure, if Satmar wants to make a Takana for itself fine, let it do so (if the Aron and Zalman factions can agree that is). If the Lubavitchers want to have their "mivtzoyim" that is their's to do. If Mizrachistim want to have "Hesder" that is their business. If Belzers want to build a huge shull in Yerushalayim and serve their Rebbe faithfully and listen to his dictates, then fine let them do it. If Brisk does not want money from Israel but wants if only from American gevirim that is their business. But if one groups wants to get up and say that THEIR "derech" or "pesak" or "mehalech" or "Takana" should become the new "law of the land" like a new "Shulchan Oruch" it would be a total disaster and could perhaps even forseeably lead to violent conflict chas vesholom (yes, it's called civil war and it could happen chas vesholom.)
j) There is so much Ahavas Yisroel lacking that it is frightening. People are viewing each other as enemies. One group of frum Jews hates and fights the other as in the times of the Bayis Sheni there is so much Sinas Chinom. And one should take a lesson from the Tanaim that when they wanted someone to be metaken the "lamalshinim" segment in the shemoneh esrei when THEY wanted to ADD an extra brocha, the 19th, the Chazal turned to (from Wikisource):"the blessing of V'lamalshinim (Informers) was added much later, during a period in which the Jewish people experienced terrible persecution as a result of these slanderous informers. The task of composing the text for this blessing was delegated to the Tanna Shmuel haKatan, because he was well known as one who exemplified the idiom (Proverbs 24:19) "At the fall of your enemy, do not rejoice, and in his stumbling do not let your heart be gleeful"."
So as I keep saying, when so many Charedim trumpet the values of Kiruv and Chinuch, begging people to give money to Lev LeAchim and Chinuch Atzmai, to so many organizations that claim to be reaching out to and helping the non-frum, this other darker war, with a "no hostages taken" approach, is the opposite of that, and often with the same people in Israel who ask for bundles of money to do "kiruv" also fueling the flames of war against those who need to be mekareavd and, yes, sometimes even megayerd (because there is quite often no other way around it, and each situation is unique, there cannot be mass solution to Yiddishe problems) and let the ones who wish "to go to war", the lurking kanoyim, baalei machlokes and frumaks, take stock of what they are about to unleash and what it may cause them in the long run.
As the saying goes, "the life you save, may be your own."
Chief Rabbi to attempt to revoke ruling which invalidates thousands of conversions
[this is an except which appeared in Haaretz]
[Arutz 7 published an interview with Rav Druckman who says the ruling is invalid]
Amar tried to halt the publication of the ruling, according to which conversions to Judaism that have been conducted by Rabbi Haim Druckman - a prominent figure in Religious Zionism - are void, and the converts cannot be recognized as Jewish by the Chief Rabbinate.
The ruling, which was already drafted in February, casts severe doubts on Druckman's conversion arrangements. The decision, made by a panel headed by the staunchly conservative Rabbi Avraham Sherman, stemmed from debating the divorce case of a woman who had been converted by Druckman 15 years ago.
[Arutz 7 published an interview with Rav Druckman who says the ruling is invalid]
Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar, acting in his capacity as president of the Supreme Rabbinical Court, will attempt to revoke a ruling from last week, which invalidated thousands of conversions carried out in Israel over the last few years, Haaretz has learnt.
The judges, it emerges, went ahead with the ruling despite the stern objection of Amar, who is said to have been surprised by the decision.
Amar tried to halt the publication of the ruling, according to which conversions to Judaism that have been conducted by Rabbi Haim Druckman - a prominent figure in Religious Zionism - are void, and the converts cannot be recognized as Jewish by the Chief Rabbinate.
The ruling, which was already drafted in February, casts severe doubts on Druckman's conversion arrangements. The decision, made by a panel headed by the staunchly conservative Rabbi Avraham Sherman, stemmed from debating the divorce case of a woman who had been converted by Druckman 15 years ago.
Friday, May 2, 2008
Thousands of conversions questioned by Supreme Rabbnical Court in Israel
Ynet just published the following article Jpost also has an article See also previous post of Rav Sternbuch's views
Thousands of conversions questioned
High Rabbinical Court calls into question all conversions performed by Rabbi Chaim Drukman since 1999
Ynet
Thousands of conversions questioned
High Rabbinical Court calls into question all conversions performed by Rabbi Chaim Drukman since 1999
Ynet
“All conversions performed since 1999 by Rabbi Chaim Avior and Rabbi Chaim Drukman, who heads the Israeli Conversion Court, must be disqualified,” the Supreme Rabbinical Court in Jerusalem concluded earlier this week, while discussing an appeal made a by a woman whose 15-year-old conversion conversion was annulled by the Ashdod Rabbinical Court, thus naming her children non-Jewish.
In the 50-page verdict,Judges Sherman, Izirer and Scheinfeld it said: "First, all conversions performed since 1999 by Rabbi Chaim Avior and Rabbi Chaim Drukman must be disqualified; second, conversions can be retroactively annulled for those who are not observant."
click on above link to see full article
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Dear Rabbi Eidensohn:
You state: "I am merely responding to your accusation that for a community to ban conversion and converts because of the widespread failure to be able to discern sincere candidates is anti-halacha and against the hashkofa that we were sent into exile to gather gerim."
Indeed I stand by my assertions and I still cannot fathom how you cite these mekoros that you do as being potentially applicable "bechol asar ve'asar" meaning in any place anywhere which is just NOT something you can derive from the sources you cite. Do you reallly think that what the Syrian rabbis did in the 20th century has any real connection to the lomdus, hashkofa and halacha in the sources you cite? Not at all. They took a look at was happening around them and screamed bloody murder at the mutiny of their flock who were "voting out of the faith" by marrying non-Jewish women and they decided to take a radical step. Did they go around and ask every last Godol on Earth at the time, including all the Sefardishe poskim, if what they proposed to do was in keeping with millenia old Yiddishkeit? And I tender to you that they did not, they panicked, put up this notorious Takana, and then found a few opinions here and there that sort of back them up. Did Rav Kook or Frank institute any such similar things for the Kehillas and Talmidim they led in Europe or in Eretz Yisroel in spite of what they wrote and allegedly "meant" to the far-away Syrians in Argentina? Decidedly no! Why, because they understood and knew full well that it is unheard of to institute such measures.
By all means pasul the geirus of others, like Satmar that does not accept the rulings of most other Batei Din, not in geirus not in gittin and not in kashrus, that is within Halachah, that one tzad is not mechuyav to be mekabel yenem's piskei di as long as they have what to be somech on, but to stand up and say you are issuing a blanket Takana "AS IF" you were now Rabbeinu Gershom, is utterly preposterous, and that is why you will not find either Rav Frank or Rav Kook or any gadol doing such things for their own people. And that is why I say what the Syrians did is anti-Halachik because it goes against the norm.
In fact none of the Syrian rabbis who signed the Takana can be deemed to be what we would today call a "gadol" in the fullest sense of the word so why do we have to accept or be machshiv what they said when it goes keneged hasechel and keneged Torah peshutah?
Then you say: "I don't understand how you would extrapolate from these sources that I am advocating a universal ban. I am just defending the right of the rabbonim of a particular community to institute such a ban."
Which I find very hard to believe the longer I stick around on your blog and read the stream of things you are pushing that seems to me klor that you want to do do to every Bais Din in the world what Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ did to EJF -- but that is not going to work and you will only marginalize yourself and make yourself seem like a crackpot trying to push a pet project that the whole world (meaning the world of reliable Batei Din) will just not accept.
It is all fine and good that you hold by Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ, terrific, it's a huge madreigah, but you cannot expect every last Charedi and Orthodox Jew to accept such a supremely high and almost impossible madreigah too. And you seem to be using this whole Syrian Takana ma'aseh, that no-one in the Torah world is even goires, because very few people have respect for what the Syrian Jewish community has achieved in terms of Torah true Judaism, they are more famous in Brooklyn for their "heterim" to ride bicycles on Shabbos down Ocean Parkway, skinny ladies wearing pants jogginbg down Ocean Parkway, building huge mansions, vacationing in Deal and on the Jersey coast as if they were on the French Riviera, and spending tons of money on lavish luxuries and outlandish Bar and Bat mitzvas and playing wink-and-look-away games with their rabbis than taking grandiose Takanas not to marry shiksa seriously.
Other groups also have corruption, but two wrongs don't make a right.
Among other groups, like Chasidim and Yeshiva-leit there are also problems but of a different nature and scale. The takanos so far in recent times are pretty lame, the rabbonim made some takanos about not going to concerts but that does not come to not accepting geirim.
No doubt there are kanoim lurking everywhere waiting to strike and in good time we will hear about attempts to disallow ALL genuine geirei tzedek from becoming geirim, but this is a big jump, and there is a wide chasm between modern Syrians in their personal SUVs and sportscars for everyone in the family with Haredim packed one family into two rooms in Meah Shearim, for now...
There are better ways to fight assimilation than Takanos and gezeiros. Think Ahavas Yisroel, Chinuch, Kiruv, Yeshivas, Bais Yaakovs, day schools, shulls, youth movements.
But the Syrians are really still not ready to hear this.
Do you known that in the Sefardic bikkur cholim in Brooklyn dominated by the SYs that they know that they need social workers but they have set up a cocamamy system that a social worker must be tagged by a communuty worker so that no community secrets leak out. Have you ever heard of such things? You are a psychologist, would you accept that every patient you see MUST be co-handled by a member of the Kehila they come from and that you would have to share all session notes, consultations with colleagues, everything, with some community appointed watchdog less-than-a-rebbetzin? Well that is the way the Syrians function, they want "Orthodoxy" but on their own terms, and what they get is just hypocrisy and a huge mess that they then try to stop with silly "takanos" that only makes them into the laughingstock of the Torah world, like little Mike needs a monitor to keep him in check, and it gets them absolutely nowhere and it is surprisng that you are willing to defend such shtus and to even go digging up mekoros for them and shtel them tzu like arbes tzum vant.
Maybe that is why Jersey Girl has a chip on her shoulder against Aish HaTorah, Chabad, and other Kiruv operations and why you harp on and on about the "Lakewood Ger fiasco" (and it was a fiasco, I agree with you) because it's just a way of laying the groundwork for a total ban against all converts which Rav Shternbuch or the BADATZ may have in the offing but which will only isolate them further and thrust them into looking no better than the Neturei Karta anti-Zionists who have turned logic and Yidishkeit upside down in order to "save it from itself."
If you want to see where opposing something to the extreme can lead, just take a look at the nut jobs who travelled to Tehran and were even willing to deny the Holocaust just to make the point that they are against Zionism. Not that I am comaparing Zionism to geirus, but one needs to watch out for the danger of falling down a slippery slope of being "protesteth too much" when just a little moderation, even for those proposing extreme views, is in order, both humanly and Halachically.
Recipients and Publicity said...
Which I find very hard to believe the longer I stick around on your blog and read the stream of things you are pushing that seems to me klor that you want to do do to every Bais Din in the world what Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ did to EJF -- but that is not going to work and you will only marginalize yourself and make yourself seem like a crackpot trying to push a pet project that the whole world (meaning the world of reliable Batei Din) will just not accept.
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Your comments seem increasing detached from reality. You are creating a conspiracy theory - which to put it politely is baloney.
As I have stated a number of time I have no problem with changes and varying standards which reflect the needs of the times. I do demand that the halachic rulings be presented in a cogent manner with the sources clearly explained as well as proof of who is poskening.
Thus I have no problem with a community such as the Syrian banning gerim they deem as insincere. I have no problem with Rabbi Tropper accepting intermarried couples - if he can show a written letter from Rav Eliashiv or some other gadol that clearly supports such action and why. I also would like some clear evidence that what ever rulings are followed actually improve the situation.
Your own creative interpretations and story telling about what happened and why - simply doesn't qualify as serious halachic discourse. Your conjecture about a wide variety of topics doesn't constitute objective facts
Why don't you come back down to earth. Your intelligence can be put to better use in helping clarifying the issues rather than villifying others.