Shavei Israel III - Proselytizing not kiruv/Finding Jews that don't exist

Guest Post: Recipients and Publicity's comment to "Shavei Israel II - Exploiting Law of Return Loopho...":

For once I agree with Jersey Girl's attitude here. [See JPost article she forwarded]

But Bartley, while I admit that my post was somewhat far-reaching, it does make a very good point, that in spite of Shavei Israel's posturing and to be blunt, MANIPULATION of the Israeli Chief Rabbinate's requirements for conversions, if you just take a hard cold look at what Shavei Israel is up to, and the JP article was a good example, they are searching high and low for ANY people with the remotest connections to the Jewish people, and they will work with people that halacha is clear are pure gentiles, meshumadim and outright Christians who do not have have a Jewish mother, for a few generations, and may even have been Catholics for a long time and in fact don't even want to "come back" to the Jewish people and Zion so that to get involved in "kiruv-like" activities to haul these people in that is a very controversial, and probably Halachically forbidden, activity.

Your contention that Shavei Israel is no different than a kiruv operation is wrong because they are working with the goal to reach people who THEY know will often times be gentiles and will require conversions, which is not and should not be the classical definition of "kiruv" which means reaching out to non-observant Jews and trying to mekarev them.

If you had read what I have written in some earlier posts about Kiruv that Dr. Eidensohn kindly published, you will see that what Shavei Israel is doing is like the current Reform Judaism effort of "Keruv" to non-Jews and to non-Jewish partners of Jews in the hope of bringing into the Jewish people and not even trying to convert them. This is the Achilles heel of the EJF/R. Leib Tropper/Tom Kaplan effort in spite of its counter-claims, and that is that in effect Shavei Israel, the Reform movement and even EJF are promoting a kind of evangelical Judaism that seeks to proselytize people into becoming Jews when they are neither asking for it nor need it.

The Real Failure of Failed Messiah by RaP

RaP this is an interesting analysis - but it is utlimately a whitewashing of a very odios subject. I would replace the word "anger" with the world "hate". Scotty was primarily a hater - not a seeker of truth. The truth was used when it was helpful in expressing hate and contempt.

For example when he objected to my post  which I wrote soon after it was established that Rivky Stein had fabricated horrific lies against her husband which the media had lapped up with relish as proof that Orthodox Judaism and in particular a male Orthodox Jew is evil. I requested that these blogs and news media apologize and acknowledge that Yoel was innocent and Rivky Stein was less then honest.

He acknowledged that it was possible that the truth was like I said but said that it didn't matter because Yoel Weiss deserved the attacks because Rivky Stein could only get justice in the Orthodox Jewish system by this type of attack. In short he refused to even consider apologizing for attacking Yoel. This is not anger - it is pure hate.

With hate, you can't be happy until the object of your hate is destroyed. Anger disappears with the issues are ameliorated.

In short he was not concerned with truth and fairness - but looked for any news item that would provide an excuse for trashing and stomping on Orthodox Jews and Judaism. Truth was only a tool in his hatred - it was not a goal.

Kiruv failed - not because it didn't seriously try but because his hatred could only be satisfied by the destruction of Yiddishkeit. Not something that makes sense even for the sake of Kiruv.

========================================================================Guest Post by RaP

I have not come to praise Failed Messiah (FM) but to bury him, to quote the famous words in Shakespeare about the ignoble demise of Julius Caesar after his assassination by his own former friends. The entire Jewish blogosphere and beyond is grappling with the sudden end of the Failed Messiah blog. People who tracked FM had a love-hate relationship with it. For some it was almost pure hate and zero love, for others it was a mixed bag. FM was not a lovable person and made sure to let you know it.

But what was the force behind the FM blog that made it the center of so much attention and controversy? Even if one did not agree with a word it said, it was still a place to get a measure of things in the Frum world. Many on this blog have quoted things that were researched well on FM. In many instances FM had parallel interests with all the other pro-active Jewish blogs, fighting child sex abuse, the various scandals like the Tropper and Hersh cases that this blog and others dealt with in depth. Pulling the facade away that "all is well" in Chabad. Hence the name "failed moshiach" as someone put it, and exposing corruption in various Charedi, Israeli, Modern Orthodox and Chasidic circles who were fighting over money, power, fame and fortune.

But behind it all was a very angry man, who by the time he allowed his FM to be shut down and taken over was a depleted ex Baal Teshuva in his late 50s who had reportedly never married, had no children, no known family and no one who can be called his friends, not getting enough money to keep going even from his readers, living in a far off city in a cramped room, where he worked as a one man news operation that often appeared like a news conglomerate but it was just coming from one driven ex Baal Teshuva who had had it with the Frum world.

The failure of FM is a failure in Kiruv!

It is a failure to close the circle by those who Mekareved him because for Kiruv to be successful it must succeed "from womb to tomb" and not just of the one who is Mekareved, but the spouse of the BT often also a BT, and their children, at the end of the day, must all be raised and remain Frum for it to be a Kiruv success story, and this did not happen with FM, because he broke down along the way of being a loyal Chabad BT to becoming its deadly foe. How so?

Classical BTs are by nature truth seekers and questioners, if they would not be then they would never be drawn to Yiddishkeit and become Frum in the first place, something FFBs do not grasp or understand because FFBs are born into the world of being Frum they do not understand or relate to the unique mental and emotional and intellectual and psychic and spiritual processes of questioning and deep grappling with issues and always demanding the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help them God.

To make this dichotomy between BTs and FFBs clearer one need not look further than the difference between Avraham Avinu and Yitzchak Avinu. They are both the Avos, but what a difference. According to the RAMBAM Avram as he was first called at a very young age started to question everything in a world from which the God of Creation had been banished, and he questioned and questioned and challenged and challenged and defied and defied everyone, until he was satisfied that he found God! Not so his son Yitzchok, the "ershter geboirener" who was born as the first FFB, he did not question because he was born into the faith. Even at the Akeidah he did not question, it was not his Test, it was Avraham's test because as a questioner he did not question God on that, and that is why Avraham passes the litmus test of belief while FM fails, or at least has failed thus far.

Someone wise recently posted a comment about him that is so true on another blog that is worth repeating:

""...We loved the muckraking. The sordid truth. The raw emotion. We loved his struggle. We were a part of something. That cannot be rehabilitated or started anew..."

That quote is what got me thinking about writing this post. What FM was, was a work in process or rather the public unraveling of a work in progress. FM was once a staunch Chabad BT he worked for them, but then he became embittered with them over reasons that anyone who has spent even a little time in Kiruv Rechokim working with formerly secular Jews knows happens all the time. An issue important to them from their past lives comes to them anew as a life's challenge, it is their challenge and Test from Above, like the Akeidah came to Avraham Avinu from Above as an unexpected challenge directly from God and what did he do? He accepted the bitter Divine Decree that went beyond his reasoning and turned his world upside down, while Avraham Avinu passed his test, FM failed his big test. It could have been about the Jewish status of Falashas or it could have been about any one of hundreds of different issues, but for FM it was a catalyst to keep his passions and fires burning now in out of control fashion, questioning, thinking, a rebellious streak running now evidently with great anger that boiled over just at the time when the Internet was exploding and FM like tens of millions of others could then "share" his anger and questions, angst, inner turmoils, and deeper thoughts with the world on his blog.

And people came by the millions to read him, not out of a hate or love for this or that and not out of hate or love for anything really, but because FM was now putting his own struggle on display as symbol of his peers who have these struggles, he did not invent the issues as some allege, he struggled with them in ways that FFBs cannot fathom but that is the typical way of BTs who are conscious of the struggles and will not cover things up just because some people don't like it, expressing himself on a huge cyber-canvas like a frustrated artist for the world to judge.

The FFBs that have bought out and shut down FM have gained a phyric hollow victory, they have bought a shell and FM is having the last laugh, he has done his thing and now he is gone, in typical controversial iconoclastic fashion with disregard for the world even for his supposed "followers" he has spit in their face, because he is an angry man to the core, something FFBs do not do and now they are holding a shadow, like when you try to catch a lizard and you think you caught it but all you are holding is its detached tail while the lizard scampers off to its hiding hole, because they can never shut down the raw questioning and anger and frustration that so many people feel. For a questioning secular Jew becoming Frum, staying Frum, marrying Frum, and raising Frum family and that all of them will remain Frum to their last day on Earth is a huge Nisoyon that FFBs cannot even begin to appreciate.

So FM was a case in point of a failure in Kiruv, it is a reminder of how the Frum world has many lessons to learn before it can win over all the hearts and minds of secular Jews becoming Frum and keep them Frum. We are still in the middle of that bitter struggle and we cannot wish away nor can anyone buy it out and shut down, because life is not that simple.

Is Eternal Jewish Family the center of the universe?

Recipients and Publicity wrote:


Dear anonymous who states that "Guma Kaplan Aguiar is the son of Ellen Kaplan."

Please do not misunderstand anything, but because the EJF has inserted itself into the heart of the matter of Halachic conversions to Judaism it is vital that the backgrounds of all the people involved with EJF itself on a leadership and policy level be known and beyond reproach.

In that spirit, can you tell us who the "Aguiar" family is and what is the meaning of the highly unusual name "Guma"? And could you clarify who is the person from the Kaplan family that Rabbi Tropper helped to get a conversion for that has been said in a various circles was the catalyst and reason Tom Kaplan got onto the conversion bandwagon together with Rabbi Tropper?

Clarification of these questions will help to resolve any conflict of interest issues that may be hindering the perception in the eyes of some astute observers that the motivation behind the EJF efforts to convert gentile spouses is not entirely altruistic but has some taint of self-vindication.

Your mentioning of the "Nefesh BeNefesh" program whereby some Christian groups contribute to the air tickets to fly people to Israel for Aliyah is presumably meant as a "defense" of EJF to convert gentiles and make them into Jews. But don't you see the absurdity of that comparison because Nefesh BeNefesh is not interfering with any Halachic process nor is it setting itself up to influence the outcome of mass conversions to batei din. The only shaila is if it is permissible to accept money from Christian charities to assist Jews to move to Israel and it is known that Rav Eliashic has clearly ruled that it is ok to take that money from them to help Jews make aliyah.

In a similar way, the American government gives billions of dollars to Israel and almost all Americans, in and out of government are Christinas, so does that mean that the Israeli government or even Jews in America should not take aid from the American government because basically all Americans are Christians and America is a Christian country? Obviously not.

Anyhow, if EJF were to switch it's priorities and either replace the money coming from Christian sources or give to Nefesh BeNefesh instead of it's desire to involve itself in mass-produced and organized conversions to Judaism, then it would be hailed as a truly great organization, just as Sir Moses Montefiore, through his marriage into the wealthy Rothchild family, got himself and the Rothchild's involved in improving the quality of life of the poor Jews in Palestine under the Turks and with the Rothchilds they became known as great investors and helpers of the Jewish people who wished to live and settle in Eretz Yisroel and for which they are held in the highest regard by the Jewish people until this day.

There are so many others to emulate. How about the Reichman family that put tens of millions of dollars at the disposal of Rav Shach zt"l to help Charedi causes so that he would not have to beg the secular Zionist leadership in Israel for funds? Or even not for tzedaka, how about emulating the great non-Jewish investor Warren Buffet who invested a few billion in Israel? These are all admirable avenues for wealthy people and billionares to invest either their capital or philanthropy/tzedaka in Eretz Yisroel and its people. But not to get involved in matters that per force must lead to a head on clash with Halachic bodies, such as batei din as the BADATZ that have ruled that EJF's goals are beyond the Halachic pale and represents a subversion of the status quo of the way Klal Yisroel deals with this crisis.

There are many crises burning in the midest of Klal Yisroel today.

There is a shidduch crisis. There is a dropout crisis. There is a divorce crisis. There are many crises and yes intermarriage and false conversions is one of them. But in no case has or can Klal Yisroel respond with "organizational" efforts in the vain hope that any given organization will solve any of the crises. Ultimately, problems are solved by individuals, families and one congregation or kehillah at a time.

A big Rebbe can talk to his Chasidim and a Rosh Yeshiva can talk to his yeshiva, but Rabbi Tropper and EJF cannot talk to all of Klal Yisroel and the Jewish people as if they ere addressing a local meeting of Rabbi Tropper's Kol Yaakov Yeshiva's board of directors.

Therefore, just as:

No one organization can solve the shiddusch and singles crisis.

No one organization has solved the dropout and teens at risk crisis.

No organization can stop or help the divorce or sholom bayis crisis.

Likewise:

No single organization can stop or change intermarriage and the challenge of creating a universal standard or to encourage conversions of non-Jews married to Jewish spouses.

Sure, some people have set up large kiruv organizations. Some large some small. But they are essentialy involved in educating ignorant people. There primary job is to educate ignorant Jews about Yiddishkeit in the hope of making them frum. Success varies. Setting up a Ba'al teshuva Yeshiva is also commendable. What can be wrong with setting up a makom Torah to teach other Yidden about Yiddishkeit?

But Orthodox Kiruv organizations cannot start functioning like Reform temples who actively seek to accept the gentile spouses and "partners" into the community.

Being Orthodox, by definition, means that there will always be barriers and sometimes those barriers will be almost impossible to overcome.

It is not for nothing that the Chazal teach us that in the future Klal Yisroel will not accept geirim. And thus where there is a great danger in either not pushing for a strict standard, as with some too-lenient Orthodox rabbis or with the too-pushy EJF effort, that it will induce the kind of reaction neither will wish to see, and that is that Charedi Jews, and the actions of the BADATZ are already a good example, will close the door entirly on all geirim well-before the arrival of Mashiach, because no-one wishes to see him greeted by an oilem of safek-Yidden.

Thus not only the BADATZ's recent declarations and intereest in this matter, but also the Beis Din LeInyonei Giur backed by Rav Eliashiv in Eretz Yisroel are already cracking down.

There is a huge debate about all of this in Eretz Yisroel with some left-wing Mizrachi rabbis supporting the Israeli government's push for mass non-Halachic "conversions" so where EJF stands in relation to all of this is ambiguous.

On the one hand they wish to appear as having the backing of Charedi gedolim, but on the other hand they do NOT work like a Charedi organization by the way they push and shove and posture and yes, even bully and intimidate, in their ambition to function as some kind of central attraction center, screening and production base for large-scale mass-conversions of gentiles married to Jews, when perhaps they would be better advised to back off. The world does not need Rabbi Tropper as "director of conversions" when his speciality has always been to make yeshiva bochurim out of young secular Jews. It is misguided of him to now try to make Halachic Jews out of non-Jews.

It is time for Rabbi Tropper to stop and take stock why he is so obsessed with changing one species of people into another. He would be better advised to leave well enough alone and let nature take its course and hand over the reins to the Eibishter.

EJF - attracting non-Jews to proselytize - is permitted

The self (?) appointed spokesman for R' Tropper - Roni has left a new comment on "EJF - Halachic justification/ / Roni": I am making it into a post because of what it reveals about the true nature of Eternal Jewish Family. What Roni is asserting here - and I received a letter from R' Tropper to the same effect - There is nothing wrong with proselytizing as long as one does not walk up to a non-Jew and try and convert him. However putting out come-on notices on the internet, ads in the newspapers, or offering all-expenses paid vacations in swank resorts to listen to top speakers promoting conversion is allowed since the non-Jew is attracted to come and you don't go to him. Furthermore it is asserted that Rav Reuven Feinstein - the posek for Eternal Jewish Family - permits this. They also insist that this is not proselytizing but merely kiruv. (You might also notice Roni's liberal use of ad hominem arguments - something which R' Tropper vehemently protests when they come from his critics). In sum the position of Eternal Jewish Family (with the apparent backing of Rav Reuven Feinstein ) is that encouraging non-Jew (especially intermarried couples) to convert is not halachically prohibited - as long as they accept the obligation to keep all the mitzvos in the chareidi way. Thus attracting non-Jews and then pressuring them to convert is not problematic - as long as in the end they agree to keep all the mitzvos as a chareidi Jew. It is also clear from their advertisements that they don't restrict their activities to intermarried couples. I would suggest R' Tropper find a less embarrassing defender.

RAp, talking like a real am hooretz, can you start answering the question "Where in Shulchan Oruch is there aN ISSUR to encourage an intermarried person to convert",

You are unable to start any conversation. You and Dt (and the third stooge) cannot even begin to have a rational discussion over this matter, you do not know where to being so you start with the new testament of

"You are not Rav Yosef Karo writing the Shulchan Oruch and interpreting it definitively nor are you the only one who says "where does it say in the shulchan oruch this and that" like a beginner. Some things are so pushut that the shulchan oruch doesn't have to spell them out,",

like a real am hooretz....you and your colleagues shout from the top of your longues for years about this terrible tragedy and issur and after your introduction of false sources (like a real ignoramus that you are) you now state that this is "so poshut the the SO does not have to spell it out", yet the SO does not find it so poshut to spell out that you are not allowed to convert for the sake of marriage?!?!

All your questions do NOT HAVE ONE HALACHIK SOURCE, BUT YOUR NEW TESTAMENT! You are such a boor that you cannot even begin to bring some halachik points mentioned by Rav Sternbuchwhose points were STRONGLY REJECTED BY RAV MOSHE FEINSTEIN, RAV HENKIN, RAV SZ AURBACH, RAV Y KAMENETZKY AND MORE!

yOU SHOTEH OTZUM "NEW TESTAMENT" IS SOMEONE WHO CHANGES THE LAWS OF YIDDISHKEYT! AND FOR THE UMPEENTH TIME YOU CAN REPEAT LIEK THE BROKEN RECORD, BUT RT DIDN'T BEGIN TO MAKE THE MISSIONARY CONVERSIONS THAT YOUR FRIEND BOMZER MADE...YOUR KRUMMER BROKEN RECORD AND THE SOUR CHOLLENTS ARE GETTING WORSE BY THE DAY YOU DON'T QUALIFY EVEN FOR A "MEGALEH PONIM BETORAH" AS YOUR KRUMKEYT HAS GOT NOTHING WITH TORAH...

So that people do not forgeth the content: The question posed to RAP. DT and the third stooge was: Where is the source in HALACHA that it is ossur to encourage intermarried cpules to covnert???

THese fellow twist and turn but are unable to talk about the issue...

EJF promotes conversion for intermarried

Recipients and Publicity commentary on latest developments with EJF "Eternal Jewish Family - R' Tropper's blog":

EJF promotes conference with Kiruv organizations, while its theme is "Converting Intermarried Couples", yet is set to promote the toughest approach to conversion itself, as EJF and Rabbi Tropper are forced to issue an official public apology and explanation to the RCA over another conversion incident. Firstly the apology:

(1) EJF and Rabbi Tropper have issued the following on the official EJF website:

"EJF Updates 05/11/2009

EJF Clarifies Stand on RCA Geyrus

A media report that appeared to challenge the validity of a geyrus performed by a rabbi affiliated with the Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) was not authorized by EJF. The report made it appear as if EJF was critical of the geyrus, when in fact EJF was never privy to the circumstances behind the giyur. While questions were raised about the procedure that led up to the giyur, EJF at no time ruled on the status of the conversion. It likewise never authorized anyone affiliated with the organization to address the giyur in the media. EJF International apologizes for any misunderstanding, particularly in a case where the Rosh Bais Din who performed the conversion is a true Talmid Chacham. In commenting on the giyur, Rabbi Leib Tropper noted, “Our standards that are based on the halachic rulings of past and present gedolei yisroel are well known and not subject to compromise. Both EJF and RCA agree that any differences should be aired between rabbinic leaders of both organizations and not in the media.” [to finish reading click on this link and read comments]

EJF - Cost Benefit analysis

bandit has left a new comment on your post "EJF defended":

If the world of kiruv would be perfect and they would be concentrating on teaching people, one by one, Torah and mitzvos and they ran into the problem of intermarried couples we would understand (though not agree with) EJF's position. However, the vast majority of kiruv is half-baked and aimed at improving people's feelings towards Judaism instead of teaching them Torah. This may not be a problem (although probably is) but once we start doing other things because of kiruv we have to reevaluate. If someone out there believes kiruv to be changing lobster eaters into latke eaters he will be bringing his clients to this beis din too. When a spouse converts are they accepting all mitzvos? Are they accepting a path that leads to all mitzvos? They are statistically more likely to divorce. What will happen then? If the geyrus is kosher they may still act like goyim, not having seen their geyrus in any context other than connected to their Jewish former spouse. This can create problems with mamzeyrus. If the geyrus is not kosher we are left with more problems. For EJF to say that they only accept geyrus with KM is allowing them to create a problem and then try and create a solution. That is a dangerous approach.

As a sidebar, the Chasam Sofer writes in a letter that when fighting evil one must take care not to attack people personally for two reasons. One, because the argument makes less sense when it includes a personal attack. Two, because the evil stands on its own and even if the perpetrator dies or leaves the scene the evil must still be fought. The personal digs in these comments (both against R' Bomzer and R' Tropper and each other) detract from the weight of the argument.

One last point. The ads printed in the Jewish media have quoted lists of teshuvos supporting them. I made it my project to research them and I was shocked to see that not one proved their point. It was a good lesson to me to research everything . But the credibility of this organization took a severe beating. Who knows what other lies are being said?

EJF - Halachic justification/ / Roni

After two years of repeated requests - our chaver Roni has succeeded in providing us with two critical pieces of information regarding Eternal Jewish Family. 1) The teshuva of Rav Reuven Feinstein, shlita - which provides the halachic rationale for EJF's kiruv (proselytization) of the non-Jewish spouse in mixed marriages 2) the explanation presented below of why there are no written haskomas from the many gedolei Torah who are actively associated with the organization or at least attend their conferences.

I would like to publicly thank Roni for his tenacity and desire to present the truth as he sees it and the countless hours he has spent trying to explain and defend R' Tropper's activies. It has obviously been an unpleasant experience for him to constantly face and explain to those of us who are less than sympathetic to what is going on. I will also reiterate what I have said a number of times before - I think that R' Tropper and his associates are working leshem Shamayim. However that doesn't preclude the possibility that their approach can be harmful and fail as Roni admits below. I will be transferring a number of comments from the previous posting that are relevant to this thread. Please keep your comments to the point, respectful and avoid personal attacks.

With these pieces of information I think it is possible to have a more productive discussion of these issues. I would like to note that Roni seems to feel Rav Reuven's interpretation of his father's position and other statement as Daas Torah. I apologize if I misunderstood this and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong. I just want to reiterate a conversation I had with Rav Dovid Feinstein regarding this issue of his father's authority. He said, "I never heard my father justify his psak by saying that it was Daas Torah." Rav Moshe clearly states this in his introduction to Igros Moshe, the essence of his rulings are sevoras. His rulings are to be judged by the perceived validity of his sevoras. He also acknowledges that he is capable of error but that since he has put so much time and effort in arriving at the conclusion which he thinks is correct - one should not be hasty to dismiss it but to seriously analyze his opinion. I don't think that his son's views should be approached with a higher level of authority than that of his father.

[Roni asked that I add the following]

Before I respond to your recent post: I must reiterate and please post this as an addendum to your head post: That the*TESHUVA* IS Rav Reuven's; but the second issue the (the explanation why there are no written haskomos to the *organization* (not that there are not *halachik teshuvas* and discussions, BECAUSE THERE CERTAINLY ARE! PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE WHAT i SAID), ARE MINE ONLY AND MAY NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THE REAL REASONING BEHIND THAT! BUT MY FEELING IS THAT THESE (AND MAYBE THERE ARE OTHERS) ARE THE REASONS WHY THEY WOULD NOT GIVE A *HASKAMAh* TO A INDIVIDUAL ORGANIZATION! (AS PROBABLY HAPPENS IN *SOME* OTHER ORGANIZATIONS ABOUT A DIFFERENT NATURE).

PLEASE DO NOT ATTRIBUTE THAT TO RAV REUVEN OR TO RAV TROPPER FOR I AM SAYING THIS ON MY OWN.

Roni wrote in response to Mekubal: ( I have made a number of corrections in to the original post)

4) the most important question: Why does he not get haskamot?

I'll give you possible answers which do not mean that they do not agree with him. a) Being that it is a novel approach. Practically speaking this method was not used especially with such an intensity therefore any respected RESPONSIBLE POSSEK would not necessarily want to to put his paper to endorse an organization if Chas Vesholom it does not succeeded to reach the hopeful goals.

b) Maybe others may follow suit and misuse the idea of the organization to take it a step further and perform these conversions without kabbalat hamitzvot. He does not want to take this public step to put his name on paper to that level.

c) and no Rabbi puts his name to sign on an organization which may in the future stumble on occasion and do something that is not correct and then people might mistake that this particular action had the approval of the Rabbi as he signed on the organization.

But on the other hand Rav Reuven partakes himself as member of the Organization. He is involved in guiding them in the Halachik Shaylos and so on. You can see the Teshuva that I posted earlier (and I"ll try BLN to scan it to Dt) as the teshuva Rav Reuven wrote to EJF where he rules on the focal question of the blog to Rav Tropper and he cites that his father the Posek HaDor HaRAv Moshe Feinstein of B"m permitted the issue in certain conditions (which is exaclty what EJF attempts to follow).

More on EJF by Eli Neuberger

5TJewishTimes

The recent Tropper scandal truly boggles the mind! I do not recall a scandal of this magnitude, where someone like that led an organization in which so many prominent Roshei Yeshiva and Torah leaders were either directly or indirectly associated. How could that be? How could this happen?

Perhaps it might be wise to examine the history of Rabbi Leib Tropper.

He has been involved with Kiruv for close to 40 years. After unsuccessful stints in Ohr Somayach of Jerusalem and Monsey, he established a Kiruv Yeshiva on his own called Kol Yaakov. But his Yeshiva never hit the big time of the Kiruv world. ....

All men are equal? - RaP vs. R' Micha Berger

Recipients and Publicity wrote: concerning "R' Tropper - Kiruv vs Geirus/ RaP's analysis":

RaP had written in the above post: "But what to do when confronted with interfaith couples where the Jewish one needs kiruv and the non-Jew needs conversion? This is not an easy quandary for all concerned but at rock bottom, regardless of what the interfaith couples are told or imagine, the gentile is NOT a "tinok shenishba" and has NO neshama while the Jew has a 100% holy neshama, which the converting gentile presumably desires. While male Jew can count for a minyan as would the greatest gadol on Earth, as would a 100% Halachically Jewish mother (even if she was anti-religious) give birth to a 100% Jew, on the other hand a goy MUST be excluded from a minyan. These are facts life and Jewish Law."

R' MB: Didn't HQBH make a point of having us all come from Adam so that things like this would not be said?

RaP:What micha said is really very surprising:

RaP: Yes indeed that is the classical answer and it is true, but why do you ignore the fact that Judaism holds that a non-Jew does not have THAT neshama that a Jew does have and indeed it is exactly THAT neshama that the sincere potential convert wants to have and should/does get upon immersion in the Bais Din's mikva when THAT neshama that he did NOT have enters into him/her upon immersion in the mikva of geirus. That is all I was saying and there was no need of you to move the issue into illogical non-relevant humanistic and globalistic egalitarian drive, when you could have just let the obvious Halachic reality stand without unnecessary questioning by you.

R' MB: One may argue whether the difference is qualitative or quantitative. Or whether it's inherent, or a product of our being part of a mission (whether a willing part or not).

RaP: These are just nice words that have nothing to do with anything, I am afraid. Why are you panicking and why do have so much trouble when THE key difference between a Yid a Goy is pointed out? I.E.: That a Yid has a Holy Neshama and Goy does not. That is why a Yid is a Yid and Goy is Goy. What don't I get here?

R' MB: But to deny that every human being has a tzelem E-lokim... The Tanya says such things, but I can't think of anyone else who does.

RaP: The "tzelem E-lokim" was not mentioned here nor was it discussed. And as you know, the use of the phrase and notion of "tzelem E-lokim" requires definition and context depending how it is to be used, but one this is for sure, the idea that somehow gentiles may have a degree of the the sublime "tzelem E-lokim" does NOT mean that they automatically can be assumed to have a neshama as well upon their desire to convert to Judaism. Far from it. Regardless of the sublime and noble Godly origin and roots of all mankind, to use the analogy of the Jewish sages, a gentile is in essence like "water" and only upon proper Halachic conversion does that gentile become "wine" when he/she finally immerses in the mikva as if it was a literal miracle of birth. Call it the ultimate BORN AGAIN phenomenon (of course the Christians stole this idea like almost all their best ideas from Judaism.)

So, sure, according to the Pantheistic and Panentheistic (Panentheism posits that God exists and interpenetrates every part of nature, and timelessly extends beyond as well. Panentheism is distinguished from pantheism, which holds that God is synonymous with the material universe) views of Tanya, which posits sparks of G-d in everything, but even Tanya teaches that while while animals have the nefesh habahamis and humans have nefesh, it is ONLY Jews who have a higher complete neshama, the "neshama Elokis sichlis" as the MAHARAL of Prague labels it most definitively, and it is precisely THAT "neshama Elokis sichlis" that a true ger tzedek receives upon the completion of a successful geirus and more specifically upon immersion in the mikva which for the ger is considered THE literal moment of BIRTH as a Jew when the "neshama Elokis sichlis" enters into hi/her just as it does when a Jewish baby is born to a 100% Halachicaly Jewish mother. And hence the expression of the Chazal: "Ger shenisgayer ketinok/kekatan shenolad dami" ("[a] convert who converts [is exactly similar to] like [a] newborn [JEWISH] infant/child") (Yevamot 48b).

Father's Jewish - try to convert?

This is an excerpt from R' Aryeh Ginzburg's sefer [pp 266-267.] As a young man he went around to gedolim with many important questions. He compiled this sefer from the answers. I personally find the sefer very frustrating since these are not teshuvos written by gedolim. Consequently there is no context or clarity. In other words you can't rely on these halacha le'maseh. It is also not valid to make diyukim in what he says. On the other hand he had very solid haskomas. Bottom line this material is thought provoking and encourages further study of the matter. The full sefer itself is available at Hebrew Books

There is a fundamental difference between what Rabbi Tropper is doing and the possible heter of a number of gedolim. As Rabbi Fuerst of Chicago has pointed out.

Are we dealing with someone who views themselves as Jewish? Someone who views themselves as Jewish and is enrolled in a Jewish school or attending kiruv meetings - is a serious problem for intermarriage. Rav Moshe Feinstein also suggests converting non-Jewish children who are attending a day school. He also says a similar heter regarding the Ethiopians in Israel who view themselves as Jewish.

On the other hand Rabbi Tropper is targeting non-Jews who have no doubt that they are not Jewish and are married to Jews. He claims that conversion is necessary for the sake of kiruv for the Jewish spouse.

Non of the gedolim mentioned advocated running after intermarried couples. In fact Rav Eliashiv explicitly stated concerning kiruv that the time honored practice has always been to ostracize such couples. Rav Eliashiv also makes an exception for a Jew who is married to a non-Jew who mistakenly thinks he/she is Jewish.

Eternal Jewish Family - 2 day conference (Lubicom)

Yeshiva World Reports:

A distinguished group of Dayanim from Eretz Yisroel and Europe will participate in a two-day conference on November 2-4 at the Downtown Marriott in Philadelphia. The third Dayanim Conference is sponsored by the Eternal Jewish Family International and the Lillian Jean Kaplan Jewish Pride Through Education Project of Horizons, an internationally recognized kiruv and Torah education center based in Monsey, headed by Harav Leib Tropper, Rosh Yeshiva of Kol Yaakov.

The overseas guests will include Dayan Avrohom Sherman, Chief Dayan of Israel’s Supreme Rabbinical Court, Dayan Raphoel Eliyahu Aisherig (Chief Rabbinate, Israel),  Dayan Chanoch Ehrentrau, Chairman of the Conference of European Rabbis and Dayan Menachem Gelley (UK). Some 40 dayanim and Roshei Yeshiva will participate in the conference which will air some of the important emerging halachic issues that constantly come to the fore on universally accepted conversion standards in intermarriage. All but some of the dayanim at the conference are part of a growing network of independent batei din in North America that have adopted the geirus standards of leading poskim, as is being promulgated by EJF International.

The conference will be opened by Harav Shmuel Kaminetsky, Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a member of the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah of Agudas Yisroel. Also addressing the conference will be Harav Reuven Feinstein, Rosh Yeshiva of Mesivta of Staten Island and Chairman of the Halachic Committee of EJF, Harav Dovid Olewski, Rosh Yeshiva of the Gerer Mesivta (Brooklyn) Harav Betzalel Tuvia Wettenstein (Belzer Dayan of Monsey)and Rabbi Eliyahu Levin (Lakewood).

The topics to be aired will include halachic and practical applications of many contemporary issues, such as children of mixed marriages, including enrollment in yeshivas and Jewish day schools; adopted non-Jewish children who reach Bar/Bas Mitzvah; working with Jewish spouses who were either frum from birth or baalei tshuvah; administering a bais din that is involved in geirus; and what constitutes geirus lechumrah and geirus al pi sofek.

Harav Tropper, chairman of the Rabbinic Committee of EJF, said that this important conference will allow the rabbonim and dayanim the opportunity to hear divrei halacha from prominent dayanim in the field as well as to exchange experiences of the various botei din. The conference discussions will be based on the principles of geirus as dictated by such leading Torah luminaries as Harav Sholem Yosef Elyashiv and the piskei halacha of the late venerable sage Harav Moshe Feinstein zt”l, as is conveyed by his son Harav Reuven Feinstein, Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshiva of Staten Island, who serves as the chairman of the halachic committee of EJF.

The presence of the dayanim from Europe is particularly noteworthy in light of the recent partnership between the Conference of European Rabbis, headed by Dayan Eherentrau and the Eternal Jewish Family International, headed by Harav Tropper, to step up efforts in Europe to head off problematic conversions in intermarriage. While EJF does not set up Botei Din, it works closely with a network of Botei Din in Israel and Europe. In the US, the Botei Din function in such cities as Baltimore, Monsey, Philadelphia, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, New York,  Los Angeles, Milwaukee, Montreal, Miami, Lakewood, Dallas, Toronto, Houston, and Vancouver

Concurrent with the Dayanim Conference will be a pilot one-day seminar for women mentors who work with women candidates for geirus in intermarriage. Many of the mentors who will be participating from all over the country are also involved in kiruv work in general while others are specifically focused on the education of conversion candidates once a decision is made to pursue a universally accepted conversion. The seminar, coordinated by Mrs. Leah Roberts of EJF, will delve into many important issues that the mentors confront on a daily basis.

(Lubicom Press Release)

EJf - June 2009 conference in Jerusalem

EJF Blog

IT WAS BY ALL accounts an unprecedented gathering of leading kiruv rabbanim from around the world, as well as rabbanim in cities and towns throughout Israel. The event took place from June 15–17, 2009 at Jerusalem's Inbal Hotel. The sponsor was the Eternal Jewish Family International, which is in the midst of a major global expansion of its activities to support rabbanim and batei din involved with intermarried couples who genuinely strive for a halachic conversion to Judaism. It also assists kiruv organizations that are on the front lines in the fight against assimilation, such as the co-sponsors of the event: Arachim Ohr Somayach Hidabroot Lev L'achim Shuvu Nefesh Yehudi In the U.S., it also includes the Gateways organization.

The rabbanim deliberated on such topics as "Worldwide Assimilation: Today's Spiritual Holocaust", "Building Barriers Against Fictitious Conversions to Judaism," Anti-Semitism and Assimilation: Cause or Effect?", and "Determining the Status of Certain 'Jews' in the Community". The rabbanim, who represented numerous cities around the globe, expressed their deepest concern over the grave issue of world-wide assimilation. In addition, they addressed a growing problem in Israel where many young people return from study abroad with non-Jewish spouses. Kiruv experts spoke of the dangers facing Israeli youth in Israel. They resolved to step up the educational efforts to hopefully thwart this growing trend. The tone of the historic conference was set by Eternal Jewish Family's chairman, Menachem Yitzchak (Tom) Kaplan who noted that "in my wildest dreams I could not imagine such a rapid and broad acceptance by rabbanim all over the world of the vision we laid out with the help of the leading Torah authorities". Kaplan said that he was "committed to do whatever it takes to take on assimilation and problematic conversions to Judaism wherever the problem exists". Rabbi Leib Tropper, the organization's chairman of the Halachic Committee, spoke of the successes of Eternal Jewish Family in "raising the bar on conversions to Judaism and successfully uniting rabbanim and dayanim from disparate backgrounds in preserving kedushas yisroel". The theme of kedushas yisrael was also addressed by some of the notable gedolei yisrael and leading rabbanim who participated in the conference. [...]

EJF scandal - comments from other blogs

1. From R' Harry Maryles:

I knew what this con man was about 20 years ago when I first met him. He was responsible then for ruining the life of one young man I am very close with - making life miserable for his parents. His mother went to the grave suffering an estrangement from her son for which Leib Tropper was responsible. His father suffers to this day from it. He took advantage of this young man's misfortune and conned him into doing something no decent man would ever do. And he made it seem like he was doing him a favor. This young man is now 20 years older and still suffering the consequences of it. Consequences that after 20 years have little chance of being reversed! I cannot get into details because confidences would be broken. But suffice it to say his only concern at that time was not to help this young man but to help himself by gaining the support of a wealthy friend in doing this con.

2. From a comment on ViN:

I have been involved with Kiruv for over three decades. Close to thirty years ago a university student underwent a Giyur Kehalacha when he discovered that his mother was converted by Conservative rabbis. A week later he went to Yeshivas Ohr Sameach. A few weeks ago EJF told him that his Giyur may not be good because they have questions of the Rabbonim who did it. Who is a erliche Orthodox Rav and does not do kulahs in Giyur. This shocking action is beyond belief. The EJF did not call the Rabbomin in question. They just put the Safek in the mind of this person 3 decades later. We need a proper structure in Giyur, and proper standards kept. However the idea that Rabbonim in Monsey, or Meah Shearim will suddenly begin to question Geirus done properly is outrageous. There is no historical precedent for this. There are a small group of Rabbonim aligned with EJF that have attempted to impose their view on Gierus. They are overreaching and creating havoc in the Jewish community.

3. From a comment on ViN:

I went to Rav Reuven Feinstein when the now infamous former head of the EJF tried to stop my marriage to my wife who is a giyores. He claimed that the Rov who was migayer her did not know what he was doing. Rbe Reuven told me that her geirus was fine. We are married now. The head of EJF got what he deserved for the pain he caused me and many others.

4. From a comment on ViN:

I converted years ago and have been frum from the time I emerged from the mikvah and the EJF told me my conversion was invalid because of the rabbonim on the beis din, all of whom were frum Orthodox rabbonim by the way. I was not the only person this happened to. Of course the EJF offered to 'fix' it for a substantial sum of money. How nice of them.

5. From Rabbi Natan Slifkin:

Also involved in the campaign against my books was Yaakov Kalmanowitz's brother,Rabbi Osher Kalmanowitz of the Mir Yeshivah in New York. He did not want to openly involve himself, and so he recruited his friend Rabbi Leib Tropper of Yeshivas Kol Yaakov in Monsey. Rabbi Tropper created a story that was told to the Rabbis who were approached to condemn the books. The story involved two students in his yeshivah, described as "angelic," who allegedly dropped out of yeshivah and left Orthodoxy after reading my books and concluding that "if the Sages could have been wrong about science, then they could have been wrong about everything." Rabbi Elya Wachtfogel, the primary rabbinic authority behind this ban, presented this story as grounds for his campaign. I myself was shaken when I heard about this story, but my mentors were skeptical and advised my to investigate it. The investigation showed that one of them was barely observant to begin with, and dropped out of yeshivah before my book on the Sages' knowledge of science was published. The other left Kol Yaakov and went to YU; he wrote to me that it was nothing to do with my books, which strengthened his Judaism, but he noted that the rabbis in Kol Yaakov did not like them.

Alice in Wonderland and Eternal Jewish Family

Anonymous said...

I ASK URGENTLY THAT DR. EIDENSOHN CLARIFY THESE TWO ISSUES: 1) WHERE RAV STERNBUCH STANDS ON THE SHESHES YEMEI BEREISHIS ISSUE, AND 2) WHAT THE POLICY OF THIS BLOG IS TOWARDS RAV ELYASHIV.

According to the Yated's full description of the November 2007 EJF conference. Rav Eisenstein stated, "If there is a dayan who seems eminently qualified but he has false beliefs concerning the belief in the age of the universe - the great gaon Rav Kanievsky shlita has ruled to us that a dayan such as this can not convert people and those who he has converted are in fact not gerim....One can not be a judge if he is wearing perfume..."

Regarding the issue of the age of the universe, Rav Sternbuch has told me that he holds that a belief in the age being greater than 6000 years is kefirah because the majority of gedolim today hold that it is less than 6000 years old. However the person who holds this belief is not himself a heretic because there are sources in chazal and rishonim who support such a belief. He acknowledged to me that he holds like the Ravad.

If Rav Eliashiv holds that a person who holds such a belief is a heretic - then they apparently disagree. However the Yated says Rav Kanievsky was the authority cited for this psak - not Rav Eliashiv.

I find your second question strange. "What is this blog's policy towards Rav Eliashiv" I don't know what you are asking.

Rav Tropper has not produced any letters written by Rav Eliashiv regarding his attitude towards the activities of Eternal Jewish Family. I have previously translated - and posted on this blog - part of a letter written by Rav Efrati regarding Rav Eliashiv's attitude towards intermarried couples. "Maran's characteristic response to intermarried couples is that they should be shunned" The only exception is where the couple mistakenly view themselves as Jewish and not as intermarried.

The Yated's article quotes Rav Eisenstein saying that Rav Eliashiv has ruled that one should not push away intermarried couples when it is clear to us that there will be complete repentance and observance of mitzvos." Note he didn't say pursue. Nor did he say to invite them to free resort vacations and try to persuade them to convert. There is no mention to support EJF's policy of kiruv as described by Rav Tropper himself in his interview with Mishpacha magazine that I have translated earlier on this blog.

Thus I have seen no written evidence that Rav Eliashiv has been fully informed of the activities of EJF or has approved them. I have heard rumors that he was unhappy about the November 2007 convention - but I don't know why.

Thus until EJF conducts itself with greater transparency and until Rav Eliashiv or Rav Reuven Feinstein write clearly reasoned teshuvos regarding the nature of dealing with intermarried couples - there is not much more that can be said.

It is a bit strange being accused of ignoring the unknown and possibly non-existent rulings of a posek concerning procedures which EJF denies doing. When I asked Rav Sternbuch if he knew what Rav Eliashiv held on these issues he said he could not get a clear answer.

All that is clear is that there are people who claim they are following the directives of Rav Eliashiv. I have no idea what these directives are. When I asked Rabbi Tropper if EJF had a manual with halachic guidelines and could I see it, he replied that EJF once had a manual but that they had discontinued it about 2 years ago because there were things in it that were not clear.

If your question is whether I highly respect Rav Eliashiv - the answer is an unequivocal yes. If your question is whether the Bedatz needs to accept everything that Rav Eliashiv says - the answer is an unequivocal no. If your question is when people claim to be strictly following the directives of Rav Eliashiv which they refuse to reveal - must their actions be uncritically accepted - the answer is unequivocally no!

RaP: Proselytization in Latin America

MISHPACHA Jewish Family
Weekly 2 Tammuz 5769
Pages 38 – 45"

RaP: Mishpacha magazine for hire continues in its path of publishing stories that promote proselytization, such as in the path with highlighting reaching out to the doubtful Subbotniks and the questionable Jews of Poland by Shavei Israel, and many such articles that seem to always land up mentioning the Anusim/Marranos in a good light, when their status is highly doubtful after 500 years of being lost.

Puerto Rico to Pupa: Rabbi Avraham Goldstein’s Journey from Delivery Boy to Ger Tzedek

By Barbara Bensoussan

With his Monsey residence; Chassidic ensemble of shtreimel, beard, and peyos; and juicy Yiddish, it’s hard to believe that Rabbi Avraham Goldstein’s roots lie in Puerto Rico. But that’s precisely where his unusual journey to Judaism began. Goldstein proceeded through a Williamsburg delivery route to an Orthodox conversion, to yeshivos in Baltimore and Brooklyn and the Pupa Chassidus. Now a violin dealer who’s made it his mission to advocate for South American geirim, he approaches all his diverse roles with an unbounded sense of joy in Judaism.

RaP: If this is all there was to his story it would be fine, but he has taken on more roles for himself than merely being a regular Jew.

"…fourteen-year-old Eduardo Torres…wanted nothing more in December of 1981 than to leave Puerto Rico and go to cold, inhospitable New York…some twenty-eight years have passed since then, but today Torres, better known in the community as Rabbi Avraham Goldstein, lives with his wife and children in Monsey, runs his own business and is ceaselessly busy helping geirim, baalei teshuvah, and anyone else who might benefit from his support."

RaP: Nowhere in this article is it made very clear who exactly gave him semicha to be ordained to undertake the rabbinical counseling and pastoral work, even though he spent time in a few yeshivas and some Chasidishe kehilas.

"Goldstein’s efforts to aid converted Jews and baalei teshuvah in South America ultimately culminated in the creation of an organization entitled Toiras Jesed [Chesed], which has the help and haskamah of Rav Chaim Eliezer Brown and Rav Yitzhak Mandel of Monroe"

RaP: What kind of "haskamah" is this? It should at least be in writing and should have been published with the article that is after all promoting this evidently proselytizing missionary cause, to give it proper Halachic legitimacy.

"Toiras Jesed even mounted a brand-new community designed specifically for geirim in the countryside of Puerto Rico

RaP: Throughout this article, the word "geirim" is used VERY loosely and ambiguously and it's very obvious that it often means people who WISH TO BECOME geirim, but who are not yet at the point where they can be Halachically and officially referred to as "geirim". In any case, why would people who have converted 100% need a separate community in far-off Puerto Rico? when almost all dayanim performing legitimate conversions insist that a gentile who has become a ger tzedek must live in a Torah community or be very near to one where geirim can lots of guidance, and not be detached from the world in a far-off Potemkin village of people who are being kept in seclusion it seems until they can become true gerim, but then, why the need to provide such a service at all isn't it according to Halacha to DISCOURAGE geirim and not to help them by building sponsored villages for them?

"In the Beginning. Perhaps it is no coincidence that Rabbi Goldstein’s original name was Torres. “The first Jew to come to America was named Luis de Torres…and Torres was a typical Marrano name.” Many of the early settlers of the New World were practicing Jews or Anusim who came fleeing the Inquisition, and lately it has become something of a fad among Hispanic groups to trace their Jewish origins…"

RaP: Mishpacha magazine for hire has a fatal weakness for somehow or other always bringing around the remotest subjects about dispersed "Jews" to the subject of the Anusim/Marranos. One wonders why that is so and why they are so invested in this very suspicious line of publishing? Hopefully it is not because of some kind of hidden ecumenical agenda that will eventually seek to make most of the Christian world into "Anusim" or whatnot.

"…Finally, almost two years after his arrival in New York, Rabbi Tress and Rabbi Weberman brought the sixteen-year-old young man to the mikveh, where he emerged as Avraham ben Avraham. He later changed his name to Goldstein after the first rabbi who taught him…Rav Yidel Leib Frank, a Breslover Dayan…asked Goldstein to attend his Shemini Atzeres seudah…at the seudah sat the woman who would later become his wife, a young lady from Mexico whose conversion had been overseen by Rav Frank himself. ”My wife is originally from Guadelajara…she was advised to complete her conversion in Israel."

RaP: Seems the whole world wants to become more Jewish except for the millions of born secular Jews who are running the other way as they assimilate, intermarry and apostasize by the millions. It is truly an olam hafuch!

"Reaching Out to Other Newcomers. Rabbi Goldstein’s “family” has expanded yet more as he reaches to other geirim… he formed an organization entitled “Toiras Chesed” (or “Toiras Jesed in Spanish spelling) to help other geirim, particularly those from Spanish-speaking countries. “It’s very hard for geirim in South America",

RaP: This is where the red line is crossed and he leaps into proselytizations as an organization. Note again, that the word "geirim" is used incorrectly here yet again because it's wannabe geirim that are the subject and not people who have undergone a full halachic geirus in front of an established bais din. Also, why is he busy with this? Who asked him to do this? Besides it being a good story-line and a money-magnet this is skating on thin ice whereby any rabbi who is also a ger is NOT allowed Halachically to perform geirus, and here he is obviously pushing to breaking point the boundaries to that..

"he explains, “because many of the Ashkenazim are not so religious, but most of the Sephardic communities hold by an old gezeirah that forbids their congregants to admit geirim"

RaP: No need to knock the Halachically Jewish Ashkenazim they are still 100% Jews and must be approached with total and pure ahavas Yisroel -(even if they be less religious, ga'ava is never nice, especially from a ger) --there is no "mitzva" to love a goy, even if he /she has ambitions to become a ger one day, they can always be encouraged to keep the sheva mitzvos of Bnai Noach which is good enough, they DO NOT require geirus at every twist and turn! -- and the Sefardim (they have their reasons and rabbonim who guided them on this) all in order to make bunch of Hispanic gentiles who are not even Jews to begin with look good. Mishpacha magazine for hire is showing a lack of sechel here for publishing this.

…”It’s hard to find anyone to convert you...”

RaP: And so it should be! This is good Halachically and good for the Jews! Who needs conversion spas and sponsorship of geirim? Is Uncle Tom Kaplan or his nephew of Shavei Israel sponsoring this? Perhaps some Chasidim with cash to burn who want to show that not just Israel can attract and settle geirim (like they recently did with the Yemenites they brought to Monsey)? The article should make clear who is REALLY sponsoring this financially and who is behind paying for the story to be published in Mishpacha magazine for hire yet again on such a theme, is it maybe an Evangelical Christian group? Anything is possible in this day and age.

"Goldstein points out that if there was a large choice of shuls and mikvaos it wouldn’t be a problem"

RaP: Again, as far as geirus, there is NO "problem" because it is good Halachicaly and good for the Jews that these barriers exist. Judaism does not need a flood of Hispanic or any geirim from this.

"but in South America the options are more limited."

RaP: This is GOOD Halachically, and good for the Jews, and NOT "bad" as his statement and Mishpacha make it seem

"In Mexico City, he claims Rabbi Jabra’s shul is the only one that allows geirim to belong. “Rav Pinchas Rabinowitz and Rav Tropper, who do conversions in Monsey, are really trying to stir things up in Mexico to make life easier for geirim,” Goldstein says…"

RaP: Aha, so Tropper and one of his enablers is now part of this story. It figures. Seems Tropper can't resist going down the path of stirring up trouble anywhere and everywhere there is a crack and they let him in. Doesn't Tropper have anything better to do than to facilitate yet another wrong-headed and misguided proselytization effort now in Latin America, when there are millions of born Halachic Jews who are secular closer to home in the USA and Israel who need kiruv.

"Because the options for geirim in South America are so limited,"

RaP: Again, this is good Halachically and good for the Jews, because it has never been the goal or desire of any rov or true manhig in Yisroel to help potentially limitless numbers of goyim become geirim. "Goldstein set about creating his own special community for geirim and baalei teshuvah of all backgrounds in Puerto Rico

RaP: Who asked him to do this? Is it Halachically permissible?

"With the help of other geirim and some sympathizers in New York, he raised funds for his Toiras Jesed organization and bought a small tract of land in Myaguec, Puerto Rico…He has already begun helping establish similar communities in Venezuela and Colombia "

RaP: Who are the mysterious enablers and financiers who are pushing this and obviously using him as the front man, so that they can avoid getting copped for the Halachic avla they are doing by setting up proselytizing communities?

"In other locations in South America, he helps geirim hook up with sympathetic rabbis and community members. “There us such a hunger for Torah,” he maintains, “I went to Colombia for Shabbos Chanukah, invited by 150 people who want to become geirim…"

RaP: Finally, some accuracy. These people are wannabe geirim not the real thing yet. Funny how it's gentiles nowadays who thirst for Torah yet secular Jews couldn't be bothered with it. Olam hafuch.

"In Venezuela, there’s a group of about fifteen families living in the middle of nowhere, who learned about Torah on the Internet and all want to become Jewish. You should see them! They’re all dressed like Jews, and they look like a bunch of Sephardim".”

RaP: Most Hispanics look like "Sefardim", so what? it's no reason to roll out a long-distance red carpet to welcome them as honorary Jews. And yes, the Internet is making a huge impact in the way people learn and live, just take this blog for example...

"Goldstein qualifies that he mostly works with people who have been referred to him by rabbis. “But lots of people approach me, because they see me as a ger who is stable and successful, who has a good track record. The rabbis trust my judgment when I send people to them, and they in turn often send people to me".”

RaP: All this activity, from Goldstein's perspective, is basically for one purpose to promote proselytization which is highly controversial and problematic Halachically and will be bad for the Jews down the line as these nebulous cases are lined up for factory-like conversion in conversion-mills that he is trying to help and grease and kick-start into action.

"Kiruv in Colombia. Reb Avraham sharing his passion for Judaism with local geirim."

RaP: "Kiruv" has NOTHING to do with geirim as such. Kiruv in its strict and classical definition means reaching out to secular and less religious BORN JEWS and bringing them closer to Torah-true Yiddishkeit. On the other hand missionizing and proselytizing to gentiles goes against thousands of years of normative Jewish life, practice and history. "Moving beyond the superficial…

”Judaism is like an air conditioner. You have the mechanical part and the part that brings in fresh air. As I see it, many of us often get too caught up in the mechanics of the system…as a ger…my job is to bring in lots and lots of fresh air.”

RaP: This is one of funniest and yet most revealing comments. Does he honestly think that bringing infinite numbers of Hispanic geirim into Klal Yisroel is like an "air conditioner" bringing in "fresh air" ??? -- has this man never heard of kashim geirim leYisroel kesapachas and all the problems it has and is creating for the world-wide Jewish and Torah communities ??? as they grapple existentially with the onslaughts of all sorts of schemes for gentiles to gain entry into Klal Yisroel, even with the help of ultra-haredi well-meaning rabbis who act more like Christian missionaries, lehavdil than like humble Jews focused on minding their own affairs who should be busy with their own business and not running around the world looking under every rock and in every village if there are any misnamed "lost Jews" or wannabe geirim to bring home like trophies from the hunt.

"Recipients and Publicity's" fantasy about the awesome power and ambition of the Bedatz

I am making this a post for two reason 1) I am really impressed with Recipients and Publicity's combination of solid knowledge with his leaps of fantasy which sometimes are on target but of late are really off. 2) It is an interesting fantasy which shows an outsiders' view - you just don't realize how inefficient and confused Chareidi Jewish organizations are.

To give a simple example, Rav Sternbuch was totally unaware of the rulings of the Supreme Rabbinic Court on Thursday - until I showed him the printout of the Jerusalem Post's article - Friday afternoon.

Regarding your other concern - knowing to whom the Bedatz sent their condemnation of EJF. I was told that they attempted to send it to all the rabbis that attended the Washington conference in Novemer 2007. Perhaps now that your question is answered you can change your name to something that is easier to type.

I will attempt to answer some of your other assertions - when I recover from the hysteria brought about by your post. BTW if you are ever in Har Nof I would be glad to introduce you the the Bedatz elite commando team that is "plotting" to take over the Jewish world. Gee I thought that Rabbi Tropper was paranoid!
===========================

Recipients and Publicity responds:

Rabbi Eidensohn says: "Your comments seem increasing detached from reality. You are creating a conspiracy theory - which to put it politely is baloney."

Really now? So how do you explain the fact that in your Friday, May 2, 2008 post of "Thousands of conversions questioned by Supreme Rabbnical Court in Israel" YOU also see fit to place in the lead "...See also previous post of Rav Sternbuch's views" with a link to your earlier post of Tuesday, February 12, 2008: "HaRav Sternbuch,shlita - Proposed conversion process threatens our existence!" with a full copy of his original letter with you as his AUTHORIZED spokseman as well as his eyes-and-ears on the Internet did (quite progressive of him in this regard as the BADATZ is against the use of the Internet except for "Parnosa"...another shmues, not for now)

Add that to Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's PUBLIC actions agaisnt Rav Tropper's proselytizing and against EJF's actvitivies (which I personally have great difficulty with, but my personal views do not matter since I am not a posek, just a Blogger like you) -- and which inspired me to take the ID on your Daas Torah of "Recipients and Publicity" because you had reported that the BADATZ had sent out official letters to various Batei Din that had indicated they would align with EJF and asking them to withdraw. It's why I had asked in my first posting, was it possible to obtain the names of all the "Recipients" of that BADATZ's letter and then was it possible to have some "Publicity" for it?! we still haven't gotten the full list from you yet, why? Is it a secret?

So that if you add up what has been happening the last few months in the world of Orthodox and Haredi rabbinical orginizations or even just by monitering your Blog and reading some of the fascinating posts and discussions on it, and having in mind that you are not just anyone but you are an authority in your own right in the writings of Rav Moshe Feinstein ztk"l and you have close personal contact with Rav Shternbuch shlit"a and with the workings of the holy BADATZ in Yerushalayim, and given Rav Shterbuch attitude and letters about Rav Tropper, about Rav Druckman and with Rav Shternbuch's concern about this entire subject of wholesale geirus and the standards to be applied, or shall we say not being applied to his satisfaction, and the goings on back and forth between Rav Amar and the RCA and how Rav Shternbuch is opposed to Rav Amar's, Rav Druchman's and others' present approach to dealing with geirus in the Israeli Chief Rabbinate who are essentially going lekula and being more lenient than he would be as he IS known to be a famous machmir with a much stricter/Brisker outlook. And with the dredging up of this whole obscure matter of how the Syrian community had dealt with the problem of conversions FOR THEMSELVES (but as Sefradim, Rav Shterbuch can use it as a nice foil against the Sefardi Rav Amar and the "Sefardi Rabbonim" he openly berates in his letter you published) so that if you take in the picture as you hav been reporting it and and as we have been discussing it and as you have been FRAMING It, it seems very clear to ME (not as a "Rov or Posek", but as a serious student of Jewish affairs and Jewish life) that what is REALLY happening behind the scenes and not so behind the scenes is that the groundwork is being laid by some groups in Yerushalayim focused around the BADATZ and led by Rav Shternbuch shlit"a is aiming to enact for the entire Charedi world what the Syrian's enacted forthmesslves in 1935.

And I tender to you, as a long-time student and observer of Jewish life and living that the if Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ make such a move they will lose and will fall flat on their faces for a number of reasons, and I will try to cite some:

a) They will be preaching to the converted. Those Charedim, like Satmar and almost all Chasidic groups, except for Chabad and Breslov who are committed to Kiruv, already practice exclusion of outsiders to gerus as far as is humanly possible. So such a Charedi-wide Takana against gerim will just pander to their self-satisfaction and not get to the root of the problem which lies outside their kehilas.

b) The Israeli estbalishment, with the Rabbanut will just use such a move to further isolate and marginalize the Charedim and the people who follow the BADATZ as "extremsist/s" with whom no (halachik) business or solutions can ever be found. Jusr like The BADATZ is opposed to the modern State of Israel and the state in turn looks at them like anachronistic jokes, it would just add to worsen that chronic situation and mindset.

c) The RCA in America and most moderate Haredim in America and the West would not accept the standards of the BADATZ and it would drive a wedge with the American communities where the real problems of intermarriages and fuzzy conversions exists. That is why, as just one example, dealing with EJF efforts and Rabbi Tropper's actvities have taken on so much importance in our times. It would split Charedim from each other, the "moderates" would feel even more split off from the "extremists" and would drive Charedim in America further into literal ghettos of isolation, which many already practice but it would make it tough on many others and they would resent it and their voices will be heard because American Jews, even Haredi ones are a free spirited, independent and outpoken, if respectful, lot.

d) It could never be enforced because the Mizrachi will continue to do what they want in Israel and the RCA in Amercia will do what they want and the BADATZ will just be left screaming on the sideleines and they will come off looking like they have gotten into deeper hot water than they can tolerate let alone swim in.

e) Not just secular Jews but Orthodox Jews will come to RIGHFULLY hate the Haredim even more for enacting Nuremburg-Nazi-type Race laws, when one of the greatest reponses against false accusations that Judaism is racist is the fact that on the contrary Judaism is NOT racist because it accepts converts from any race faith or creed provded the convert is genuine. There is a famous quote from Rav Yaakov Kamenetezky ztk"l that the arguments that Judaism is racist like the Nazis could chas vesholom be "proven" true were it not for the fact that the BIGGEST disporoof against that argument is that Judaism, unlike Nazism, accepts converts, even from nations that are or were its enemies! By enacting a Syrian-like Takana for all of Charedi Judentum, the BADATZ would be digging a big whole for all Charedim and indeed all Jews, to be buried in that would validate the worst claims of the antisemites, playing into the hands of all sonei Yisreol the media would have a field day painting Jews as confirmed racist and proto-Nazis once and for all and that would be a world-class tragedy.

f) It would be ARROGANT!!! It would in effect mean that the BADATZ is taking upon itself the job and role of the Sanhedrin that can only be established with the arrival of the Mashiach. What the Syrian's did with their Takana also goes against this. How dare any Kehiilla, no matter how self-righteous take upon itself what can only be done in Yemos HaMashiach when Klal Yisroel will no longer be mekabel geirim? As I have said, sure, make the acceptance standards for geirus tough, make them very very tough, make them even EXTREMELY tough, but never let the door be bolted tightly shut so that noone can come through to be megayer because that is something that is still possible until such time as ALL of Klal Yisrael rabbonim can agree and when all the robbonim agree maybe that will be a sign that Mashiach is around the corner.

g) It does no good that Rav Shternbuch belittles Rav Druckman and Rav Amar or others like them. Rav Druckman and Rav Amar are not small-time Kiruv rabbis from America who have funny ideas. They are essentially mainstream rabbis for their followers. Not everyone is Charedi and not everyone will be or needs to be.

h) It will be a terrible case of "kefiya datit" (religious coercion) and a huge Chilul H-shem and may result in onforseen consequences. For example, if Charedim are going to pasul all gerim of the rabbanut then in a time of crisis, as in a terror attack or war situation, chas vesholom, someone in a position of power in the Israeli security forces may allow the abandonment of Charedi Jews under fire when lives are at stake. There are clear considerations of pikuach nefesh and dinei nefashos here that cannot be igmored in the Israeli context that are above and beyond questions of valid and invalid conversions. Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's descendant are not going to marry geirim or people who come from geirim because the natural suspicioun, exclusion and paranoia of outsiders is strong strong in the heearland of ASHKENAZI Charedim that they will not really face the problems. It is more marginal people that this debate concerns, and the BADATZ needs to consider if in a quest to keep all gerim out by steam-rollering over Rav Amar, Druckman, the RCA, the Rabbanut etc, they are not in the process also writing some "warrants" that will backfire on them when THEIR day of reckoning should ever come, chas vesholom, so that this is all quite literally a matter of life and death and not just an academic discussion about gerim.

i) There are SIMPLER solutions! At least the Syrians kept the matter to themselves. That was logical. But now, as you drag the Syrian Takana as a kind of "blueprint" of what can be done on a broader scale (and the BADATZ in Yerushalyim is dealing with matters on a broader scale per force) then it becomes an entirely different matter. Sure, if Satmar wants to make a Takana for itself fine, let it do so (if the Aron and Zalman factions can agree that is). If the Lubavitchers want to have their "mivtzoyim" that is their's to do. If Mizrachistim want to have "Hesder" that is their business. If Belzers want to build a huge shull in Yerushalayim and serve their Rebbe faithfully and listen to his dictates, then fine let them do it. If Brisk does not want money from Israel but wants if only from American gevirim that is their business. But if one groups wants to get up and say that THEIR "derech" or "pesak" or "mehalech" or "Takana" should become the new "law of the land" like a new "Shulchan Oruch" it would be a total disaster and could perhaps even forseeably lead to violent conflict chas vesholom (yes, it's called civil war and it could happen chas vesholom.)

j) There is so much Ahavas Yisroel lacking that it is frightening. People are viewing each other as enemies. One group of frum Jews hates and fights the other as in the times of the Bayis Sheni there is so much Sinas Chinom. And one should take a lesson from the Tanaim that when they wanted someone to be metaken the "lamalshinim" segment in the shemoneh esrei when THEY wanted to ADD an extra brocha, the 19th, the Chazal turned to (from Wikisource):"the blessing of V'lamalshinim (Informers) was added much later, during a period in which the Jewish people experienced terrible persecution as a result of these slanderous informers. The task of composing the text for this blessing was delegated to the Tanna Shmuel haKatan, because he was well known as one who exemplified the idiom (Proverbs 24:19) "At the fall of your enemy, do not rejoice, and in his stumbling do not let your heart be gleeful"."

So as I keep saying, when so many Charedim trumpet the values of Kiruv and Chinuch, begging people to give money to Lev LeAchim and Chinuch Atzmai, to so many organizations that claim to be reaching out to and helping the non-frum, this other darker war, with a "no hostages taken" approach, is the opposite of that, and often with the same people in Israel who ask for bundles of money to do "kiruv" also fueling the flames of war against those who need to be mekareavd and, yes, sometimes even megayerd (because there is quite often no other way around it, and each situation is unique, there cannot be mass solution to Yiddishe problems) and let the ones who wish "to go to war", the lurking kanoyim, baalei machlokes and frumaks, take stock of what they are about to unleash and what it may cause them in the long run.

As the saying goes, "the life you save, may be your own."