Bava Basra (74b) Once we were travelling on board a ship when we saw a precious stone that was surrounded by a snake. A diver descended to bring it up. Thereupon the snake approached with the purpose of swallowing the ship, when a raven came and bit off its head and the waters were turned into blood. A second snake came, took the head of the decapitated snake and attached it to the body, and it revived. Again the snake approached intent on swallowing the ship. Again a bird came and severed its head. Thereupon the diver seized the precious stone and threw it into the ship. We had with us salted birds. As soon as we put the stone upon them, they took it up and flew away with it.
Megila (7b) Rabbah and R. Zera joined together in a Purim feast. They became inebriated, and Rabbah arose and cut R. Zera's throat. On the next day he prayed on his behalf and revived him. Next year he said, Will your honour come and we will have the Purim feast together. He replied: A miracle does not take place on every occasion.
Ramban says that midrashim should not be taken literally. Ok so you might call this an aggadah, but it's obviously not to be taken literally.
ReplyDeleteNever mind that there's a halachic concept of pseik resha.
It's likely talking about the risks of getting too drunk.
That's a typo, should be Rambam!
DeleteMidrashim generally come in two flavours when they tell stories. Sometimes they're historical tales. Sometimes they're metaphors and those are usually ones like these two. You're not supposed to take them literally. You're supposed to explore the lessons Chazal were trying to teach
ReplyDeleteYes- according to Maimonides.
DeleteSome people think it gives chazal supernatural powers to revive the dead
One of my "If Chazal came back today, they'd say" lines is: And you took those stories literally? Are you nuts?
DeleteMy favourite midrashim are the ones that portray the 12 tribes as a sort of Justice League, each brother with some kind of special superpower, fighting the hordes of Eisav in war after war.
People have all sorts of projections.
DeleteMost yeshiva people would tell you some other story about exactly what chazal would say today.
In fact, they also think they know what G_d will say about someone, and what their punishment will be in the next world.
I call it the St Peter delusion.
I wrote yeaers ago on my blog about how the philosoophical difference between Modern Chareidism(tm) and Modern Orthodoxy is that MC's think that Chazal would come back and say "Ignore the last couple of centuries of knowledge and science! Read the Bible literally and yes, there's a giant frog out there the size of a town and how dare you doubt that! Rabbi Yochanan, hit that guy with your super-death vision!" And the MO's think it would be as I noted.
DeleteFair enough, but the MOs generally think that Rambam will come back and he's a clean shaven professor (of several subjects) and Gadol hador, and will be telling chareidim how wrong they are on so many issues. That's actually a position I held , except for the clean shave part.
Delete"Ignore the last couple of centuries of knowledge and science!"
DeleteYou make a very valid point here.
In fact. Chareidim already say this themselves. Even those who do kiruv and try to present science friendly worldviews.
They actually disbelieve in science all the way. But they make reference to it to appear knowledgeable.
In fact, that's also the case with the Tanach. They pretend that they believe in it, but actually they don't. They believe in certain variant readings of midrash etc, and hold pashtanim like Ibn Ezra in disdain.
Well I once read an essay that suggested that if you read Maharal properly and accept his approach, then The Matrix is actually how the world works. We live in this fake physical existence, all science is a fraud and the true world is the spiritual one so yes, the world is literally 5786 years old, Genesis is literal, and lice don't hatch from eggs. That we perceive things differently is because of our inability to see things the way they truly are.
DeleteAnd I call bovine faeces on that because it turns the RShO into a trickster who planted fake dinosaur bones in the ground to test our faith and I don't accept that.
If you read R' Slifkin's review on R' Meiselman's book reconciling science and Torah, that's exactly his approach - a dishonest presention of science to prop up the unscientific beliefs in the Talmud.
As for Rambam, yes I think you're right but then Ramban would be out there in full Chareidi gear, leading the Peleg faction and throwing rocks at him.
Ramban certainly wouldn't be poleg or rock throwing.
DeleteHe was the first RZ Rav. He defended the Rambam from the polegs of his day.
Ramban is more like Rav kook than anyone else.
Also Raavad would be ultra Zionist
DeleteHe permits even then, going up to har habayit.
Also disagreed with Rambam on so many halacha
I dunno, the way Ramban savagely attacks those mephorshim he doesn't agree with gives me the impression he'd be on the intolerant side of the community today.
DeleteHe sometimes disagrees with Rashi, so he's not going to be Artscroll. Anyway, if there were people so great today, nobody would be able to delegitimise them. Although if Rambam was around and did say anything against mysticism, he would be marginalised as an eccentric genius.
DeleteKA is in his fantasies.The aforementioned would have termed him a foolish heretic
ReplyDeleteWhich statement would turn who into a heretic, and on what basis.
DeleteIf you are going to present a view, be clear and present an argument
Let's see, do you cast "Leshem yichud" spells, before every reading in the siddur? Do you realise that not only the Noda B'Yehuda banned this as heresy, but the Rambam would classify it as real heresy... need i continue?
Delete