https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt
Relevant to the claim that some gedolim initially viewed the founding of the state of Israel as the beginning of redemption is the similar reaction of Rabbi Akiva to Bar Kochba
Simon Bar Kokhba took the title Nasi Israel and ruled over an entity named Israel that was virtually independent for over two and a half years. The Jewish sage Rabbi Akiva, who was the spiritual leader of the revolt,[51] identified Simon Bar Kosiba as the Jewish messiah, and gave him the surname "Bar Kokhba" meaning "Son of a Star" in the Aramaic language, from the Star Prophecy verse from Numbers 24:17: "There shall come a star out of Jacob".[52] The name Bar Kokhba does not appear in the Talmud but in ecclesiastical sources.[53] The era of the redemption of Israel was announced, contracts were signed and a large quantity of Bar Kokhba Revolt coinage was struck over foreign coins.
The disastrous end of the revolt occasioned major changes in Jewish religious thought. Jewish messianism was abstracted and spiritualized, and rabbinical political thought became deeply cautious and conservative. The Talmud, for instance, refers to Bar Kokhba as "Ben-Kusiba," a derogatory term used to indicate that he was a false Messiah. The deeply ambivalent rabbinical position regarding Messianism, as expressed most famously in Maimonides "Epistle to Yemen," would seem to have its origins in the attempt to deal with the trauma of a failed Messianic uprising.[89]
Bar kochba was dead after 3 years and his revolt crushed.
ReplyDeleteRav soloveitchik used this argument in early days of the State.
Today, all those gedolim are sadly no longer alive, but the Medina is.
So the error , if any, was the comparison with bar kochba - a short lived revolt.
BTW whereas Talmud called him a false Messiah, Rambam categorises him as a righteous King, like all the others , who failed.
Where is this Rambam?
ReplyDeleteYou sound like those who claim that even though the Rebbe died he was still Moshiach
I have erred -
ReplyDeleteוְאַל
יַעֲלֶה עַל דַּעְתְּךָ שֶׁהַמֶּלֶךְ הַמָּשִׁיחַ צָרִיךְ לַעֲשׂוֹת
אוֹתוֹת וּמוֹפְתִים וּמְחַדֵּשׁ דְּבָרִים בָּעוֹלָם אוֹ מְחַיֶּה מֵתִים
וְכַיּוֹצֵא בִּדְבָרִים אֵלּוּ [ב.] אֵין הַדָּבָר כָּךְ. שֶׁהֲרֵי רַבִּי
עֲקִיבָא חָכָם גָּדוֹל מֵחַכְמֵי מִשְׁנָה הָיָה. וְהוּא הָיָה נוֹשֵׂא
כֵּלָיו שֶׁל בֶּן כּוֹזִיבָא הַמֶּלֶךְ. וְהוּא הָיָה אוֹמֵר עָלָיו
שֶׁהוּא הַמֶּלֶךְ הַמָּשִׁיחַ. וְדִמָּה הוּא וְכָל חַכְמֵי דּוֹרוֹ
שֶׁהוּא הַמֶּלֶךְ הַמָּשִׁיחַ. עַד שֶׁנֶּהֱרַג בַּעֲוֹנוֹת. כֵּיוָן
שֶׁנֶּהֱרַג נוֹדַע לָהֶם שֶׁאֵינוֹ. וְלֹא שָׁאֲלוּ מִמֶּנּוּ חֲכָמִים
לֹא אוֹת וְלֹא מוֹפֵת. וְעִקַּר הַדְּבָרִים כָּכָה הֵן. שֶׁהַתּוֹרָה
הַזֹּאת חֻקֶּיהָ וּמִשְׁפָּטֶיהָ לְעוֹלָם וּלְעוֹלְמֵי עוֹלָמִים. וְאֵין
מוֹסִיפִין עֲלֵיהֶן וְלֹא גּוֹרְעִין מֵהֶן:
He says in general, in the next halacha:
If he did not succeed to this degree
or was killed, he surely is not the redeemer promised by the Torah.
Rather, he should be considered as all the other proper and complete
kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. God caused him to arise only to
test the many, as Daniel 11:35
states: 'And some of the wise men will stumble, to try them, to refine,
and to clarify until the appointed time, because the set time is in the
future.'
Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Mashiach and was executed by the court was also alluded to in Daniel's prophecies, as ibid.
11:14 states: 'The vulgar among your people shall exalt themselves in
an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.'
Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity? All the
prophets spoke of Mashiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior
who would gather their dispersed and strengthen their observance of the mitzvot.
In contrast, Christianity caused the Jews to be slain by the sword,
their remnants to be scattered and humbled, the Torah to be altered, and
the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the L-rd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He makes a general statemen about a failed or kileld Messianic candidate as being a righteous king - my assumption was that he included bar Kochba in that. But it is not proveable.
Bar Kokhvah wasn't the last, Shabtai Zevi was. My father, a"h, was never happy with Lubavitchers singing "We want Moshiach now" because there was still a communal memory back in the old country of how fanatically demanding Moshiach led to disaster.
ReplyDeleteAnd here is the difference. Religious Zionists do not claim to know when moshiach is coming. Not do they claim that they own him. They see that the wall no longer exists, and kibbutz galuyot is obviously occurring.
ReplyDeleteThe other is the approach to messianic times. There are two main opinions - one is that it will happen in the wink of an eye and the other is that it will build up over a period of time. Same with the Third Temple. Either it'll descend ready-made from Heaven or it'll have to be built by us. Both sides have sources to rely on. The Religious Zionist position is "Well yes, there's an opinion that nothing will change and we have to sit in golus twiddling our thumbs and taking smacks on the head until Moshiach reveals himself, but there's another opinion that we will initiate the process and prepare Israel by building it up and lookie, lookie what's happening!"
ReplyDeletethere is also a thign called realism, or reality check - whci the Chareidi world often are faced with. A few examples: smoking - first it was a loophole to allow people to continue to smoke, then reality hits them, now it is assur. Same with Israel - first they opposed anything done by secular jews, then reality hits them, it is a good thing after all, they sit in the Knesset, build famileis and communities, own stores, opticians, etc.
ReplyDeleteEven kiruv - it wasn't Lubavitch or Noach Weinberg who invented this concept - it was Rav Kook. 100 years ago, Hareidi position was to distance totally from chilonim. Rav Kook essentially started outreach, he even convinced Rav Sonnenfeld to go with him on mitzvah mission. Today, hareidi yeshivas, who don't even mention Rav Kook (or Lubavitch) are doing outreach.
In any case, why is it they only err when they disagree with you? How comes your side never erred?
ReplyDeleteAnd if someone says that he now changed his mind, so what does that prove? Maybe he was right the first time, and wrong now. Or wrong both times. It just shows that that person is not reliable. What he says today may be an even greater error.
r David Bar Hayyim takes this differently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-TB9bV1h2s
ReplyDeletehe argues that according to Rambam, a King willa rise or will be chosen/ appointed by the people, and if he fulfills certain criteria, he will be the Moshiach.
Whereas Bar Kochba led to the wipeout of a Jewish presence in Israel, the State has done the opposite. It has started the ingathering of the exiles. So to compare the Bar Kochba disaster to the State is wishful Neturei karta thinking.